Frame Bubble:

[AgilisMerlin]

http://frameforum.org/forum3/index.php?topic=497.0 :D

[mosca]

It may have been said before, but it seems like Framebuilding is the new Microbrewing. Guys see a chance to "live the dream doing what they love." Maybe the movement will foster it's own market.

[avalonracing]

Next you are going to tell us that cigar bars are just a trend... Oh wait...

[e-RICHIE]

ubi student atmo -

http://www.pinsa.org.za/images/david2.jpg

typical framelist wannabe atmo -

http://kornorstone.com/db3/00225/kornorstone.com/_uimages/BubbleBoy1.jpg

former terry bike framebuilderess atmo -

http://www.jessicafans.org/pics/Jessica-Alba-blowing.bubble.jpg

future nahbs atmo -

http://www.kinetics.co.nz/newssite/PublishingImages/bubble_boy.jpg

[David Kirk]

Good deals to be had on lightly used jigs and Paterek manuals.

dave

[Darrell]

:beer:
:)

[coylifut]

it's hard for me to believe that there's a bubble in an industry where there's already so many low cost alternatives. 50% of the current one man shop US frame builders could go out of business tomorrow and it would make the sound of one hand clapping.

[e-RICHIE]

it's hard for me to believe that there's a bubble in an industry where there's already so many low cost alternatives. 50% of the current one man shop US frame builders could go out of business tomorrow and it would make the sound of one hand clapping.
and that would be applause atmo.

[swoop]

and that would be applause atmo.

i snorted. that's two clicks higher than a deep chuckle. talk to me about life coaches. same thing.

[coylifut]

and that would be applause atmo.

you're a bodisatva. you just solved a 1500 year old question.

[Chris]

i snorted. that's two clicks higher than a deep chuckle. talk to me about life coaches. same thing.

Dude. Seriously. $600.00 to go to a course, and a website and that is all you need to start totally screwing people up. It took me 10 years of school to earn that right...

[avalonracing]

Dude. Seriously. $600.00 to go to a course, and a website and that is all you need to start totally screwing people up. It took me 10 years of school to earn that right...

Doctor or Lawyer?

[coylifut]

Dude. Seriously. $600.00 to go to a course, and a website and that is all you need to start totally screwing people up. It took me 10 years of school to earn that right...

e-RICHIE is my new Life Coachmo. I'll be leaving for my 70 minutes soon. He'll be certified by the time I get back. Where do I send the check?

[swoop]

Dude. Seriously. $600.00 to go to a course, and a website and that is all you need to start totally screwing people up. It took me 10 years of school to earn that right...


word.

[Dave B]

it's hard for me to believe that there's a bubble in an industry where there's already so many low cost alternatives. 50% of the current one man shop US frame builders could go out of business tomorrow and it would make the sound of one hand clapping.


I don't understand. Low cost alternatives to what? High end cost hand made frames?

[Dave B]

word.


There is always Dr. Phil!

He done told them how they need to do it right. :rolleyes:

[Chris]

Doctor or Lawyer?

shrink... :) Not to take this thing off topic, but I was at my kid's soccer game the other day when this woman drives by in her life coach mobile. A lexus all tatted up with her photo, quirky sayings, and website address. I go home and check it out. It's comical. She bares her soul about how she was abused as a child by both parents, how they won't speak to her anymore and how her first husband got the kids (doesn't happen in Oklahoma unless you are a total nut job) because of a conspiratol judicial system. Her learning through all this how to live based on her reading a book from a nationally recognized life coach and turning her life around, led her to attend the one weekend seminar required to get her certification in this line of thinking. Now you, can come see her and she can help you learn to live with less fear and more powerfully... brother.

[Dave B]

shrink... :) Not to take this thing off topic, but I was at my kid's soccer game the other day when this woman drives by in her life coach mobile. A lexus all tatted up with her photo, quirky sayings, and website address. I go home and check it out. It's comical. She bares her soul about how she was abused as a child by both parents, how they won't speak to her anymore and how her first husband got the kids (doesn't happen in Oklahoma unless you are a total nut job) because of a conspiratol judicial system. Her learning through all this how to live based on her reading a book from a nationally recognized life coach and turning her life around, led her to attend the one weekend seminar required to get her certification in this line of thinking. Now you, can come see her and she can help you learn to live with less fear and more powerfully... brother.


I am fascinated with the prostitutionalization of life coaches and self help seminars. I swear going to a self help seminar has to be the giant poster for irony.

Take real work (whatever it is) and find some way to make a buck if your sounds, looks, rides, or tastes like the other guys.

[coylifut]

I don't understand. Low cost alternatives to what? High end cost hand made frames?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Generally the prices have to be escalating at an sustainable rate (or someone is getting rich providing a service) for a bubble to form. Sure, prices are going up, but it it looks like 5% of the guys are making 95% of the money.

[Dave B]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Generally the prices have to be escalating at an sustainable rate (or someone is getting rich providing a service) for a bubble to form. Sure, prices are going up, but it it looks like 5% of the guys are making 95% of the money.


But do these 5% folks deserve the rewards of their labor. Isn't that the basis of economics, supply and demand?

Any of the builders who frequent here deserve as much as they can charge. People are still going to buy their products.

This isn't to say a new cat shouldn't come along and wow people with his/her talents, but I think the builders like richard, kirk, zank really move others to want to try. If you are one of these builders who move others to start a craft, maybe you should be rewarded with a higher price, wait lists, or whatever we are talking about. atmo

[Ken Robb]

I have seen a couple of really gorgeous-looking bikes at the Handbuilt Show and other places. There is no doubt that somebody put in a lot of time filing lugs and doing the finish and paint work to make what is at least a piece of bike jewelry. My question is: how many bikes does a person have to design before he gets good enough to give the customer the ride he wants through proper geometry, tube selection, etc?

Serotta has made thousands of bikes and has computer modeling ability to parlay their years of experience into a company with the ability to design and build just what the customer orders as to ride quality. I know Mr. Sachs designs and builds a dandy bike because I seen a bunch and ridden a few. I think Curt has enough experience to get it. The builder of the gorgeous bike at the show told me he builds a few bikes a year. Well at that rate I'll be long-dead before he'll have enough experience for me to trust his designing ability.

In fact I don't know how builders really learn this stuff because they can't ride most of the bikes they build and we customers are so vague with terms like "snappy but compliant" that I wonder how useful our feedback can be.

I think I'll open a bottle of red in anticipation of my pasta dinner and contemplate the whole weighty issue.

[David Kirk]

I have seen a couple of really gorgeous-looking bikes at the Handbuilt Show and other places. There is no doubt that somebody put in a lot of time filing lugs and doing the finish and paint work to make what is at least a piece of bike jewelry. My question is: how many bikes does a person have to design before he gets good enough to give the customer the ride he wants through proper geometry, tube selection, etc?

Serotta has made thousands of bikes and has computer modeling ability to parlay their years of experience into a company with the ability to design and build just what the customer orders as to ride quality. I know Mr. Sachs designs and builds a dandy bike because I seen a bunch and ridden a few. I think Curt has enough experience to get it. The builder of the gorgeous bike at the show told me he builds a few bikes a year. Well at that rate I'll be long-dead before he'll have enough experience for me to trust his designing ability.

In fact I don't know how builders really learn this stuff because they can't ride most of the bikes they build and we customers are so vague with terms like "snappy but compliant" that I wonder how useful our feedback can be.

I think I'll open a bottle of red in anticipation of my pasta dinner and contemplate the whole weighty issue.

What he said and it goes double for the bottle of red. Merlot please.

dave

[M.Sommers]

Is Paula on the bubble?

http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/2008/05/american_idol_paulas_teapot_te.html

[Ken Robb]

Is Paula on the bubble?

http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/2008/05/american_idol_paulas_teapot_te.html

Are you at USD w/ my nieces and nephews?

[M.Sommers]

Are you at USD w/ my nieces and nephews?

Yes with the nieces.

:beer:

[flux]

ubi student atmo -

http://www.pinsa.org.za/images/david2.jpg

typical framelist wannabe atmo -

http://kornorstone.com/db3/00225/kornorstone.com/_uimages/BubbleBoy1.jpg

former terry bike framebuilderess atmo -

http://www.jessicafans.org/pics/Jessica-Alba-blowing.bubble.jpg

future nahbs atmo -

http://www.kinetics.co.nz/newssite/PublishingImages/bubble_boy.jpg


"fcuk em' all"

now you feel me.

[saab2000]

I am fascinated with building a bike or more. But I have a day job I don't intend to quit for the moment. So it is happens, it'll be small scale at first. Not more than a few hundred in my first year.

The builders here have little to fear should I go that route someday.

But I do like working with my hands and think learning to weld and/or braze and design would be a logical extension of my interest in bikes.

Bubble or not.

[Pete Serotta]

What he said and it goes double for the bottle of red. Merlot please.

dave


Merlot (Duckhead) on the way... :beer:

[catulle]

Bubble...? What do you mean bubble...? That prices rise because people are buying with the purpose of speculating, and/or prices going towards unsubstantiated perceived value...? I think that the very few builders that can charge just about anything they want for their work are not doing it because they simply don't want to. Yes, that's seems odd but just ask around. Others, well, others may try to charge steep prices for their frames but that won't last long; not all people are stupid all of the time. Bubble? I like bubbles with Scarlett Johansson especially now that she's getting married soon.

[Peter P.]

This thread reminded me of a custom frame I had built for me back around 1982 or so.

I friend of mine had taken a course in framebuilding a couple years before I met him. He had built two frames to date-one for himself and another for his brother.

He was reasonably successful on his bike and never complained about it, so when I wanted a new frame I threw the money at him. Geometry wasn't an issue because I picked pretty standard dimensions.

Well, when I brought the finished frame to Peter Weigle for paint, I asked him to check it on the alignment table before he painted it.

He told me afterwards that when he would try to align one tube, another would go out of whack, and this would repeat no matter what he did.

Sure enough, when riding this thing no-handed, it would pull to the left instantly, and nothing could cure it. It drove me nuts but what could I do; my buddy sorta did this as a hobby. I had no recourse.

I road the frame for a year and threw it away.

Please learn from my experience.

[Lifelover]

I have seen a couple of really gorgeous-looking bikes at the Handbuilt Show and other places. There is no doubt that somebody put in a lot of time filing lugs and doing the finish and paint work to make what is at least a piece of bike jewelry. My question is: how many bikes does a person have to design before he gets good enough to give the customer the ride he wants through proper geometry, tube selection, etc?

Serotta has made thousands of bikes and has computer modeling ability to parlay their years of experience into a company with the ability to design and build just what the customer orders as to ride quality. I know Mr. Sachs designs and builds a dandy bike because I seen a bunch and ridden a few. I think Curt has enough experience to get it. The builder of the gorgeous bike at the show told me he builds a few bikes a year. Well at that rate I'll be long-dead before he'll have enough experience for me to trust his designing ability.

In fact I don't know how builders really learn this stuff because they can't ride most of the bikes they build and we customers are so vague with terms like "snappy but compliant" that I wonder how useful our feedback can be.

I think I'll open a bottle of red in anticipation of my pasta dinner and contemplate the whole weighty issue.


I got this from a reliable source:

"here's the thing....a bunch of italians figured out a long time ago the proper sized wheels and most of the proper angles for bikes that would excell on all sorts of the horrible (and nice) terrain that passed for roads in post war europe......"


Stick to the basics and beyond that it's all about Gestalt!

[Ken Robb]

well that covers the geos. What about tube selection? :)

[pdxmech13]

Me i'm a bit miffed at all these people "expecting" a living wage here in portland trying to build bikes. I know a few of them and I just don't geti it. I know that I could have sparked a torch too but hell I wouldn't ride the bikes that I could build, yet let alone expect some serious frn's.

[rounder]

Frame bubble or bike bubble. If the current builders or bike builders are making a lot of money on a popular fitness/competitive sport trend, I don't care...am into riding bikes for the duration. I believe that they are making bikes because that is what they know how to do and that something drove them to it in the first place. However they got there, if they can make money doing it, then good for them.

I went to a duck decoy festival last weekend. The guy who came in second overall for best in show has also come in second for best in show in two national competitions. To me, he should have won. His duck looked so real that it could fly away. One of the tests is that they put it in a tank to see how it floats and it floated right (walks like a duck and talks like a duck...must be a duck). Anyway, the guy carves birds because that is what he does and has done his whole life. My guess is that it is the same for the bike builders here. They build bikes because that is what they do. Hope the bubble doesn't break any time soon.

[Mshue]

I spoke to a builder at NAHBS who was displaying the only three bikes he’d ever built. He nailed the aesthetics – they were really beautiful. I asked about pricing. He hadn’t finalized it, but it would likely START at $2,200. That’s more than Carl Strong asks for a tig welded steel bike and this from a guy with all of three bikes under his belt. I don’t know if it’s a bubble, but that seems kinda bubbly to me (especially if he was able to find customers willing to pay it).

[J.Greene]

I spoke to a builder at NAHBS who was displaying the only three bikes he’d ever built. He nailed the aesthetics – they were really beautiful. I asked about pricing. He hadn’t finalized it, but it would likely START at $2,200. That’s more than Carl Strong asks for a tig welded steel bike and this from a guy with all of three bikes under his belt. I don’t know if it’s a bubble, but that seems kinda bubbly to me (especially if he was able to find customers willing to pay it).

I think it's cool that people can dream. I also think that there should be a section at these shows that the new guys populate. The guys with no sales but who are working on the dream. It would be a win-win.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

I think it's cool that people can dream. I also think that there should be a section at these shows that the new guys populate. The guys with no sales but who are working on the dream. It would be a win-win.

JG
some of the socials at the peddie school were like that atmo.

[M.Sommers]

Custom frames are a product, like all others, riding on a capitalistic course; the current recession will impact all bike manufacturers (even TREK). When sales begin to diminish, companies look to marketing for assistance (is it any wonder e-RICHIE'S bird bath photo is now one of the top-marketing/advertising hits on the internet :) ) and perhaps custom frame builders will endure the realistic cycle of economics...what goes up, must come down, spinnin' wheels got to go round. Are custom frames the new Starbucks? So much cafe, but too much dinero? The market will dictate, it's the dog that wags the tail, not the reverse.

For me, MADE IN AMERICA and MADE IN ITALY are the only things that truly matter.

:beer:

[Dave B]

I think it's cool that people can dream. I also think that there should be a section at these shows that the new guys populate. The guys with no sales but who are working on the dream. It would be a win-win.

JG


But how then does a new builder get any street cred? If there is a section in the corner where the "New Kids" work is, doesn't that deminish the expectations.

What if a "new kid" really gets it, you know hits a homer in his first appearance for the Sox. maybe he welded on other things and knows how the flame and metal dance together like a waltz and not a mosh pit. throws his skills at a bike tube and does it right...with the perfect amount of imperfections. ;)

How does he win to put him in the JV corner?

[J.Greene]

What if a "new kid" really gets it, you know hits a homer in his first appearance for the Sox. maybe he welded on other things and knows how the flame and metal dance together like a waltz and not a mosh pit.

I don't think it happens with 1-3 frames.

JG

[Lifelover]

I don't think it happens with 1-3 frames.

JG


Seems like it would depend if you are talking fabircation or design.

I know metal crafts man here at my shipyard that could fabricate a metal bike as well as anyone after 1 or 2 tries.

They would not know anything about fit, handling, etc., but give them the tools, a sketch and the material and it would look and function as well as anyones.

Of course it would lack Gestalt.

[e-RICHIE]

I know metal crafts man here at my shipyard that could fabricate a metal bike as well as anyone after 1 or 2 tries. <cut>
hmmm atmo.

i'd have to ponder this one. 'make me wonder why folks spend
a single minute more than they have to in order to get the job
done. mebbe we can get some zen from ben about this. is the
host here spending too much time on details. ah simple minds.

sorry, bub. but reducing this to a follow-the-instructions thing
is misplaced, especially on a board where folks are sharing an
interest in handmade bicycles. they're all duped atmo?

[J.Greene]

You either don't know much about metal fab or your trolling. There are great fab people in other industries who could easily pick it up, but two tries from a drawing does not expose one to everything that goes on. There is just not enough potential to learn.

Anyway, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume your a troll.

JG

Seems like it would depend if you are talking fabircation or design.
I know metal crafts man here at my shipyard that could fabricate a metal bike as well as anyone after 1 or 2 tries.
They would not know anything about fit, handling, etc., but give them the tools, a sketch and the material and it would look and function as well as anyones.
Of course it would lack Gestalt.

[roman meal]

.

[davids]

e-RICHIE,

How much for the instruction manual? I built this last week:

http://www.brmetals.ie/assets/gall4.jpg

So, now I can go down to the basement. I'm ready for a bike.

[stevep]

the dark days before e-bay.


This thread reminded me of a custom frame I had built for me back around 1982 or so.

I friend of mine had taken a course in framebuilding a couple years before I met him. He had built two frames to date-one for himself and another for his brother.

He was reasonably successful on his bike and never complained about it, so when I wanted a new frame I threw the money at him. Geometry wasn't an issue because I picked pretty standard dimensions.

Well, when I brought the finished frame to Peter Weigle for paint, I asked him to check it on the alignment table before he painted it.

He told me afterwards that when he would try to align one tube, another would go out of whack, and this would repeat no matter what he did.

Sure enough, when riding this thing no-handed, it would pull to the left instantly, and nothing could cure it. It drove me nuts but what could I do; my buddy sorta did this as a hobby. I had no recourse.

I road the frame for a year and threw it away.

Please learn from my experience.

[Fat Robert]

Seems like it would depend if you are talking fabircation or design.

I know metal crafts man here at my shipyard that could fabricate a metal bike as well as anyone after 1 or 2 tries.

They would not know anything about fit, handling, etc., but give them the tools, a sketch and the material and it would look and function as well as anyones.

Of course it would lack Gestalt.

If you're talking about framebuilding, you're talking about both. To build a good frame, you need to be a craftsman (your shipyard worker), a designer (the quote from the jerk was deceptively simple. the basics of bike geo have been set for a long time. however, the genius is in how the elements are put together -- its why I can slide my rock lobster through corners and why my scott felt as if it was going to slide me through corners. some designers don't get it), and know rider positioning: those three areas of knowledge take a lot of time and experience to build up. Your metalworker would have one piece of the puzzle -- but he couldn't do more than rip off existing geos.

I just ordered a frame from Joe DePaemelaere at Primus Mootry. He hasn't built *that* many bikes -- a few hundred. But, his reputation is getting there. He gets it. The other guy I was considering was Tom Teesdale -- guy who has been building bikes full time for 30 years -- so maybe 9,000 frames -- done contract work, his own stuff, whatever he needed to do to keep the torch burning and the money coming in. not a name you'll hear on this forum very much, because his paint is ****ty (I was going to get an unpainted bike and send it to J Greene), but I've seen and ridden his bikes and he knows how to build a serious race rig if you know what to ask for. both these guys are gifted. you don't make a bike by reading a manual or being a good welder -- no more than you can be a chef by going to cooking school, or write a book of poetry because you have an english degree. if you can't grasp that, you're just vulgar. go buy a trek.

man...the barbarians are inside the gates...this place is shot.

[J.Greene]

the dark days before e-bay.

potd

[roman meal]

.

[bigbill]

Since I can't use my GI bill until I retire from the Navy and I already have multiple degrees, I was planning on using it for a bike mechanic and framebuilding school. I don't want to do it for a living, I would rather just tinker and build stuff for my own use. I plan on brazing some really heavy steel frames and then send them off for chrome plating. Carbon forks of course. Bigbill's Boat Anchor Frames. My models will be "The Descender" and "The Density".

[Lifelover]

hmmm atmo.

i'd have to ponder this one. 'make me wonder why folks spend
a single minute more than they have to in order to get the job
done. mebbe we can get some zen from ben about this. is the
host here spending too much time on details. ah simple minds.

sorry, bub. but reducing this to a follow-the-instructions thing
is misplaced, especially on a board where folks are sharing an
interest in handmade bicycles. they're all duped atmo?


I'm in no way reducing this to follow-the-instructions. I'm not say that the average Joe could build a decent frame.

However, in the realm of metal fabrication, fabricating a bike frame is not rocket science. Welding and brazing are not exclusive to frame builders. Someone who fabs custom motorcycle frames could fabricate a bike frame pretty good right out of the gate.

Of course this is all just ATMO.

[Lifelover]

If you're talking about framebuilding, you're talking about both. To build a good frame, you need to be a craftsman (your shipyard worker), a designer (the quote from the jerk was deceptively simple. the basics of bike geo have been set for a long time. however, the genius is in how the elements are put together -- its why I can slide my rock lobster through corners and why my scott felt as if it was going to slide me through corners. some designers don't get it), and know rider positioning: those three areas of knowledge take a lot of time and experience to build up. Your metalworker would have one piece of the puzzle -- but he couldn't do more than rip off existing geos.

I just ordered a frame from Joe DePaemelaere at Primus Mootry. He hasn't built *that* many bikes -- a few hundred. But, his reputation is getting there. He gets it. The other guy I was considering was Tom Teesdale -- guy who has been building bikes full time for 30 years -- so maybe 9,000 frames -- done contract work, his own stuff, whatever he needed to do to keep the torch burning and the money coming in. not a name you'll hear on this forum very much, because his paint is ****ty (I was going to get an unpainted bike and send it to J Greene), but I've seen and ridden his bikes and he knows how to build a serious race rig if you know what to ask for. both these guys are gifted. you don't make a bike by reading a manual or being a good welder -- no more than you can be a chef by going to cooking school, or write a book of poetry because you have an english degree. if you can't grasp that, you're just vulgar. go buy a trek.

man...the barbarians are inside the gates...this place is shot.


As a craft, the process of designing AND fabricating a good bike would take allot more time than 1-3 frames.

On that we agree.

[stevep]

I'm in no way reducing this to follow-the-instructions. I'm not say that the average Joe could build a decent frame.

However, in the realm of metal fabrication, fabricating a bike frame is not rocket science. Welding and brazing are not exclusive to frame builders. Someone who fabs custom motorcycle frames could fabricate a bike frame pretty good right out of the gate.

Of course this is all just ATMO.

i thk yr missing that the fabrication part is far less than the sum of the construction. a lot of guys can weld/ braze... not that many can make a great bike out of tubes.
it is not rocket science , thats true.
its tougher cause the numbers dont come off a calculator.

[Fat Robert]

Someone who fabs custom motorcycle frames could fabricate a bike frame pretty good right out of the gate.

Of course this is all just ATMO.

no

the weight that is distributed over a bike frame (namely, the rider) is much different than the weight distributed over a motorcycle (rider, engine, suspension, transmission...motorcycle riders are not positioned on a moto as a rider is on a bike because there are other pieces of weight in the picture).

he would need to learn how riders are positioned and how the weight needs to be balanced.

his bicycles might, however, have wicked sissy bar seats and chopper handlebars.

[PoppaWheelie]

I dunno guys...and I maybe be completely off base here....but I kinda doubt that even the guys who have long waits (even RS, Vanilla, etc) are rolling in cash. Once you consider the time it takes to do customer service, sales, accounting, billing, pay for tubes, pay for shipping, pay for paint, pay for space/insurance/phone/whatever...I'm guessing you certainly don't have heaps of money left over to pay yourself for a very labor-intensive process. When you consider that we're in the midst of a hand-built frame renaissance and that some of these guys have wait lists that span for years, it's pretty amazing that the prices have held as steady as they have. I figure that the lucky ones are making a comfortable living for sure, but I'd be pretty surprised if any of them are getting rich. For the most part their income is pegged at the limit of their own production.

[stevep]

my last visit to sachs he was lighting a cigar with a $20...
he said that before the recession he used $50s.
( was a cuban, too )
s

but poppa, yr right.


I dunno guys...and I maybe be completely off base here....but I kinda doubt that even the guys who have long waits (even RS, Vanilla, etc) are rolling in cash. Once you consider the time it takes to do customer service, sales, accounting, billing, pay for tubes, pay for shipping, pay for paint, pay for space/insurance/phone/whatever...I'm guessing you certainly don't have heaps of money left over to pay yourself for a very labor-intensive process. When you consider that we're in the midst of a hand-built frame renaissance and that some of these guys have wait lists that span for years, it's pretty amazing that the prices have held as steady as they have. I figure that the lucky ones are making a comfortable living for sure, but I'd be pretty surprised if any of them are getting rich. For the most part their income is pegged at the limit of their own production.

[J.Greene]

I took a frame class 2 years ago. We had a guy who was a machinist in the class. I think he'd disagree with you on every level. I'm not trying to take something away from these other fabricators, it's just what you propose is not going to happen in 1-3 frames.


I'm in no way reducing this to follow-the-instructions. I'm not say that the average Joe could build a decent frame.

However, in the realm of metal fabrication, fabricating a bike frame is not rocket science. Welding and brazing are not exclusive to frame builders. Someone who fabs custom motorcycle frames could fabricate a bike frame pretty good right out of the gate.

Of course this is all just ATMO.

[swoop]

i know some bike welders that made an airplane. that's got to mean something.
you never see pegoretti and nasa in the same building at the same time.

it all comes together.

felt used to make moto parts... and as a result made some spectacularly average bikes when he switched over.

[shinomaster]

no

the weight that is distributed over a bike frame (namely, the rider) is much different than the weight distributed over a motorcycle (rider, engine, suspension, transmission...motorcycle riders are not positioned on a moto as a rider is on a bike because there are other pieces of weight in the picture).

he would need to learn how riders are positioned and how the weight needs to be balanced.

his bicycles might, however, have wicked sissy bar seats and chopper handlebars.


I think what he is talking about is just putting the parts together competently so it won't fall apart, and you could ride it. Lots of art students I knew in the metals department could braze beautifully and cut and fabricate metal. That doesn't mean they could design bikes that you would want to ride.

I see it roughly like pottery. Any jackass can take a lump of clay and learn how to make a bowl and cloak it in a veil of pretty glaze. But only a person that's been doing it for many years can make one that's spectacular--one a tea master would want to use every day.

[Fat Robert]

I dunno guys...and I maybe be completely off base here....but I kinda doubt that even the guys who have long waits (even RS, Vanilla, etc) are rolling in cash. Once you consider the time it takes to do customer service, sales, accounting, billing, pay for tubes, pay for shipping, pay for paint, pay for space/insurance/phone/whatever...I'm guessing you certainly don't have heaps of money left over to pay yourself for a very labor-intensive process. When you consider that we're in the midst of a hand-built frame renaissance and that some of these guys have wait lists that span for years, it's pretty amazing that the prices have held as steady as they have. I figure that the lucky ones are making a comfortable living for sure, but I'd be pretty surprised if any of them are getting rich. For the most part their income is pegged at the limit of their own production.

two ways to do it:

1) combine clever marketing with the design and build skills to back it up (sachs, vanilla, kirk: make people want the 3,000 frame, then make the frame so flipping good they think they got a bargain for 3 grand. make 50 bikes a year and you're doing ok, but you're not getting rich.

2) be a very good builder and just sort of okay at marketing. then, do any and all contract work you can get. sell your own stuff too, and try to figure out your marketing. you'll do ok, but you won't get rich.

the bottom line: be so good at what you do that you can justify your price tag, or that design houses seek you out to build their stuff. otherwise go back to school and get that hotel management degree. you'll need it.

[swoop]

I think what he is talking about is just putting the parts together competently so it won't fall apart, and you could ride it. Lot's of art students I knew in the metals department could braze beautifully and cut and fabricate metal. That doesn't mean they could design bikes that you would want to ride.

I see it roughly like pottery. Any jackass can take a lump of clay and learn how to make a bowl and cloak it in a veil of pretty glaze. But only a person that's been doing it for many years can make one that's spectacular--one a tea master would want to use every day.


i can throw a wabi sabi looking bowl in clay and splash some glaze on it and to my deeply unskilled eye it will look just like a masterwork at ten paces.
this is all part of that two worlds stuff in a way. it has a lot to do with what the customer is willing to see and what it means to them in the context of what they know and value.

informed customers make for nice bubble bursting. like anything.. the less passive you are them more you can see. curiosity and energy are the enemy of this kind of passivity. i can see how much energy you bring to your love of pottery.

[shinomaster]

i can throw a wabi sabi looking bowl in clay and splash some glaze on it and to my deeply unskilled eye it will look just like a masterwork at ten paces.
this is all part of that two worlds stuff in a way. it has a lot to do with what the customer is willing to see and what it means to them in the context of what they know and value.

informed customers make for nice bubble bursting. like anything.. the less passive you are them more you can see. curiosity and energy are the enemy of this kind of passivity. i can see how much energy you bring to your love of pottery.


At NAHMBS I noticed there were definitely different quality levels of lugged steel. I want to see your wabi-sabi bowl!

[swoop]

At NAHMBS I noticed there were definitely different quality levels of lugged steel. I want to see your wabi-sabi bowl!


here. you like? 2,000 bucks.

[shinomaster]

I have a confession to make. I'm not really a "shinomaster." It's a nickname my college professor gave me. I'm just an lazy amateur potter without his own studio.

[M.Sommers]

I have a confession to make. I'm not really a "shinomaster." It's a nickname my college professor gave me. I'm just an lazy amateur potter without his own studio.

I wasn't in 'American Flyers' either.

:beer:

[JKlash]

“Mommy, where do frame builders come from?”

I realize that I’m running the risk of raising the ire of nearly the entire post because opinions seem pretty well formed, but contrarianism is my nature.

I’m unclear about what is wrong with wanting to become a frame builder.

With this attitude, where is the next generation of frame builders going to come from? Will they spring forth fully formed from Sacha White’s head Greek Goddess style? Will they be the secret love children of E-Richie and Dario? Perhaps they are growing in protein vats underneath the Serotta facility as we speak?

If you want to build bicycles, what is wrong with going to a class to learn how? So what if my first frame isn’t on par with a Richard Sachs. While I don’t know this for sure, I’m guessing E-Richie’s first frame probably wasn’t a masterpiece either. I also seem to remember reading a quote from him somewhere that said it took him several years before he knew what he was doing. I bet some of those early frames made it into the hands of the public. You may not know what you are doing for the first 5-10 frames, but you can’t get any better if you don’t try.

At what point do you graduate to being an official frame builder? You might not be able to sell frames 1-10, but unless you’re independently wealthy with a hearty philanthropic streak, you are going to have to start charging for your work at some point. It would be great if everybody got a hundred or so practice frames, but who can afford that? Instead you go to a class and learn the technique, build a handful of frames basically for free, hopefully learn from your mistakes, and then you start trying to convince people to pay you a little to make a bike for them. For a while each subsequent frame is probably a little better than the last. If you’re lucky, you can get some good advice from builders with more experience.

If you show an aptitude for building bikes, are a decent businessperson, and have reasonable customer service skills, you get to stay in business. If people are happy with their bikes, they tell their friends and post pictures on forums like this and more orders result. The converse is also true, if your workmanship is shoddy or you don’t treat customers well, people will find out about that too and you won’t be around for long.

I just don’t see a problem with this cycle, it seems pretty self-regulating. It would be nice if everybody could ride bikes made by Richard Sachs or Sacha White because they are no doubt at the pinnacle of the trade, but those bikes are steep and not everyone can wait 5-7 years for a new frame. The Serottas, Sevens, and Independent Fabrications of the world also make very nice bikes, but I think everyone would agree that they are definitely on the expensive side. Speaking as a large fellow with odd proportions, I’m glad that there is a place in the world for upstart builders who can build a quality frame to measure in less than a year for less a $1000 even if some of them might have attended UBI.

[shinomaster]

Hey that was a good first post. Wait...what happened?

[e-RICHIE]

Hey that was a good first post. Wait...what happened?
where'd it go atmo?????????

[shinomaster]

where'd it go atmo?????????


It's not just me?

[AgilisMerlin]

i got it.......while posting on frameforum......the exact......copy

yo editors/moderators........ ................. voila and it be gone :no: Re: Is framebuilding the next housing bubble?
a thread regarding this post on serotta:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=541837#post541837

#66 Today, 05:31 PM
JKlash
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1

“Mommy, where do frame builders come from?”

I realize that I’m running the risk of raising the ire of nearly the entire post because opinions seem pretty well formed, but contrarianism is my nature.

I’m unclear about what is wrong with wanting to become a frame builder.

With this attitude, where is the next generation of frame builders going to come from? Will they spring forth fully formed from Sacha White’s head Greek Goddess style? Will they be the secret love children of E-Richie and Dario? Perhaps they are growing in protein vats underneath the Serotta facility as we speak?

If you want to build bicycles, what is wrong with going to a class to learn how? So what if my first frame isn’t on par with a Richard Sachs. While I don’t know this for sure, I’m guessing E-Richie’s first frame probably wasn’t a masterpiece either. I also seem to remember reading a quote from him somewhere that said it took him several years before he knew what he was doing. I bet some of those early frames made it into the hands of the public. You may not know what you are doing for the first 5-10 frames, but you can’t get any better if you don’t try.

At what point do you graduate to being an official frame builder? You might not be able to sell frames 1-10, but unless you’re independently wealthy with a hearty philanthropic streak, you are going to have to start charging for your work at some point. It would be great if everybody got a hundred or so practice frames, but who can afford that? Instead you go to a class and learn the technique, build a handful of frames basically for free, hopefully learn from your mistakes, and then you start trying to convince people to pay you a little to make a bike for them. For a while each subsequent frame is probably a little better than the last. If you’re lucky, you can get some good advice from builders with more experience.

If you show an aptitude for building bikes, are a decent businessperson, and have reasonable customer service skills, you get to stay in business. If people are happy with their bikes, they tell their friends and post pictures on forums like this and more orders result. The converse is also true, if your workmanship is shoddy or you don’t treat customers well, people will find out about that too and you won’t be around for long.

I just don’t see a problem with this cycle, it seems pretty self-regulating. It would be nice if everybody could ride bikes made by Richard Sachs or Sacha White because they are no doubt at the pinnacle of the trade, but those bikes are steep and not everyone can wait 5-7 years for a new frame. The Serottas, Sevens, and Independent Fabrications of the world also make very nice bikes, but I think everyone would agree that they are definitely on the expensive side. Speaking as a large fellow with odd proportions, I’m glad that there is a place in the world for upstart builders who can build a quality frame to measure in less than a year for less a $1000 even if some of them might have attended UBI.

[AgilisMerlin]

i don't think it is going anywhere over here's...........

http://frameforum.org/forum3/index.php?topic=497.msg4409#new

[AgilisMerlin]

It is here, yet it is not here........

am I in some kind of parallel universe............flashback time

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=541837#post541837

[Pete Serotta]

This is not a bottle of Mondavi Red or a Honda Civic. Welding a tube of some metal to another tube is not necessarily bike building. Many of us with our analytical gray matter try to reduce things to take a class, buy the tools and material, and then start making whatever it is.... \\

I think I will stick with a Kirk, Sachs, Serotta, IF etc,....if I can not afford them than I will buy used... A $1000 frame if it fails can cause me serous life interruption. If the price is too good to be true - it is probably not true.

Price a frame tube set/fork, paint job from a reputable source, and then the sizing and labor to build - :confused: :confused:

Why am I writing this...for I do want new folks to think a 1000 frame is as good as a 2000+ frame from a Builder who has a reputation. Example is a RIVENDELL can not even do a 1000 frame - sourcing globally.


-- -Their is a old saying that " you pay for what you get" it still is true for the vast majority of instances.



I think we "short change" the builders out there who have worked for others and have built up there skills and knowledge......It is not just a class.


“ upstart builders who can build a quality frame to measure in less than a year for less a $1000 even if some of them might have attended UBI.

[shinomaster]

I know that some frame builders starting out (like Vanilla) charged friends basically the cost of materials to make them a bike. Obviously this was just the beginning for him, but what if he never had the chance to build those early bikes? I'm sure they were not all perfect, but that is how you learn a craft. We don't have the traditional apprentice system any more. In the old days you could spend up to ten years learning a craft. Who has that kind of time?

[taylorj]

I know that some frame builders starting out (like Vanilla) charged friends basically the cost of materials to make them a bike. Obviously this was just the beginning for him, but what if he never had the chance to build those early bikes? I'm sure they were not all perfect, but that is how you learn a craft. We don't have the traditional apprentice system any more. In the old days you could spend up to ten years learning a craft. Who has the that kind of time?

At Seven, it would take a year or more before welders were welding on customer bikes. It was amazing. Many of the folks making bikes today (Seven, Kirk, IF, Moots, etc.) spent lots of time under someone else's arm (Merlin, Kellog, Chance, Erickson, Serotta, etc.) beforehand and just carried on a tradition with their own special style to create their brand. So it is circular. And what you, the consumer, pay for is that time. Worth every penny.

[JKlash]

This is not a bottle of Mondavi Red or a Honda Civic. Welding a tube of some metal to another tube is not necessarily bike building. Many of us with our analytical gray matter try to reduce things to take a class, buy the tools and material, and then start making whatever it is.This is not a bottle of Mondavi Red or a Honda Civic. Welding a tube of some metal to another tube is not necessarily bike building. Many of us with our analytical gray matter try to reduce things to take a class, buy the tools and material, and then start making whatever it is.... \\

I think I will stick with a Kirk, Sachs, Serotta, IF etc,....if I can not afford them than I will buy used... A $1000 frame if it fails can cause me serous life interruption. If the price is too good to be true - it is probably not true.

Price a frame tube set/fork, paint job from a reputable source, and then the sizing and labor to build -

Why am I writing this...for I do want new folks to think a 1000 frame is as good as a 2000+ frame from a Builder who has a reputation. Example is a RIVENDELL can not even do a 1000 frame - sourcing globally.


-- -Their is a old saying that " you pay for what you get" it still is true for the vast majority of instances.



I think we "short change" the builders out there who have worked for others and have built up there skills and knowledge......It is not just a class. \\


I understand what you are saying; it takes more than a class to make you a frame builder. I certainly wouldn’t disagree with you on that point. The problem is that the logic becomes circular. One can’t become a good frame builder without actually building frames, if your frames aren’t worth a damn then you can’t build frames. If you can’t build frames then you never get any better.

I think the idea of apprenticeships for frame builders is a good one, but it’s not always practical. The problem is this, even if you find a builder who is gracious enough to let you sweep the shop and run errands in exchange for showing you how to file your first lug or braze your first tube, you are still going to have to build your first bike at some point. Unless you are a prodigy, it probably won’t be so great. The truth is I would be shocked if bike 100 wasn’t always better than bike 1, but you have to start somewhere.

Additionally the very small margins that you are talking about make the apprentice process tougher to deal with. I’m guessing there probably aren’t a great many builders out there who can afford to pay a living wage to an apprentice, which means that an apprentice would have to live on next to nothing while learning the trade. There is no doubt that the watchful eye of a master craftsman is to your advantage, but it is not always practical, realistic, or possible and its absence shouldn’t necessarily preclude you from becoming a very good builder. Practice makes imperfection.

[shinomaster]

At Seven, it would take a year or more before welders were welding on customer bikes. It was amazing. Many of the folks making bikes today (Seven, Kirk, IF, Moots, etc.) spent lots of time under someone else's arm (Merlin, Kellog, Chance, Erickson, Serotta, etc.) beforehand and just carried on a tradition with their own special style to create their brand. So it is circular. And what you, the consumer, pay for is that time. Worth every penny.


Yeah, a friend of mine from Art school started out at IF tacking frames together. Another guy from my school started out the same way and has been there for about 11 years making bikes. I'm sure by now he could build you a pretty kick assed bike if he chose to venture off on his own. He designed their head tube badge. I guess that's an ideal learning situation.

[AgilisMerlin]

the headbadges are made in Maine............ :beer: me thinks

[big shanty]

This rings true to me:

"Starting out on your own is fine, but if someone comes to you for a custom bike, they should understand your level of experience. There is no reason that they need to believe that you have it dialed, when you are still learning. Learning is cool, and an early customer should be stoked to be a part of that process. " - Sacha White, COG magazine, Issue 2

http://www.cogmag.com/02/vanilla-bicycles.html

The key for an up-and-coming or aspiring framebuilder is to convince people to be a part of your process. As a customer, if you want a Richard Sachs, get in line. If you want a bike right now, there are people who can do a great job. If you want to support an up-and-comer, do that. Just make sure you adjust your expectations accordingly.

[dannyg1]

The marketplace is not the great regulator of the framebuilders, patience is. I believe that i is possible, given a first order degree of pride, patience and skill, for a junior framebuilder to build poetically from the start. 'The start' being from the first frame he/she 'releases' as their #1.

Perceived talent in framebuilding, IMO, is the result of measuring perfectly, brazing perfectly, filing with extreme care and an eye towards the finished result and knowing what to expect when things don't go perfectly. There is no substitute for experience but builders like Ira Ryan, though far too young to have built 900 frames, consistently create frames that compare well to any other. Extraordinary is extraordinary.

Remember that one of the first rules of marketing is to create an aura of 'mystique' around what you do and relegate others doing similar work to another 'class'. We'd all do well to consider that there are some masters of marketing 'round here.

That said, these most definitely are extraordinary and brilliant framebuilders as well.

Danny

[Grant McLean]

The thing that keeps coming to my mind about new builders is how quickly
people seem to fall into the "everyone has one of those, I want something different" mindset.

A guy actually said that about a Pinarello Prince to me the other day. Those
have been on the market since like September?

Anyway... pulling together all the qualities as a "framebuilder" is intense.
Mostly, the customers obsess about paint colours and external do dads,
since it's a given that the frame is built correctly... maybe a bad assumption
these days from some of the newbies.

Here's some of my personal thoughts for flava:
There are some mad talented builders with stupid brand names, horrible graphics.
Some of the new kids have cool fonts, and neato paint....go figure.

If you wear sandals, socks, shorts, and T-shirts at shows, you get the customers
you deserve. Try to kick it up a notch, m'kay?
Get a pantone chart, and some colour wheels, and ask a fashionista or check
a blog about what colours are hot next year.
I assume that most of the new builders would be unnecessary if the machinists,
brazers, and quality manufacturers knew how to make their products look
better. Custom paint is the option in a vacuum. If those "mini" car guys
can come up with a dozen stock colour combos that it makes it hard for me
to choose, i'm not really looking to create even more of my own.
If none of a builder's bikes appeal to me from the gallery, Houston, we have
a problem...

-g

[Pete Serotta]

If I recall Richard Sachs, Ben Serotta, and many others started at a salary of pretty close to Zero. In many industries an apprentice is very very low paid. (Look at doctors among others). Additionally as they learn they are overseen and guided by a far more experienced tutor (thus their early frames have a guiding hand and some quality review.)

I agree the "single builder" industry is very small in relation to all bikes sold AND with China Inc making carbon bikes that everyone seems to want it is only more difficult.

When we look at PARLEE and others - it can be done but it is very difficult.

Lastly, selling a finished product for less than $1000 leaves very little to live on even if you can sell 50 frames a year (and that would be a very good year for someone starting out.)

I am not trying to talk down someone going in this direction but that $1000 frame might be less than a happy experience.

For me personally the risks are too high to take a chance for there are many other bike options out there in terms of rides.. THis is just me AND variety is the zest of life and living it, :D



I understand what you are saying; it takes more than a class to make you a frame builder. I certainly wouldn’t disagree with you on that point. The problem is that the logic becomes circular. One can’t become a good frame builder without actually building frames, if your frames aren’t worth a damn then you can’t build frames. If you can’t build frames then you never get any better.

I think the idea of apprenticeships for frame builders is a good one, but it’s not always practical. The problem is this, even if you find a builder who is gracious enough to let you sweep the shop and run errands in exchange for showing you how to file your first lug or braze your first tube, you are still going to have to build your first bike at some point. Unless you are a prodigy, it probably won’t be so great. The truth is I would be shocked if bike 100 wasn’t always better than bike 1, but you have to start somewhere.

Additionally the very small margins that you are talking about make the apprentice process tougher to deal with. I’m guessing there probably aren’t a great many builders out there who can afford to pay a living wage to an apprentice, which means that an apprentice would have to live on next to nothing while learning the trade. There is no doubt that the watchful eye of a master craftsman is to your advantage, but it is not always practical, realistic, or possible and its absence shouldn’t necessarily preclude you from becoming a very good builder. Practice makes imperfection.

[Fat Robert]

Lastly, selling a finished product for less than $1000 leaves very little to live on even if you can sell 50 frames a year (and that would be a very good year for someone starting out.)

I am not trying to talk down someone going in this direction but that $1000 frame might be less than a happy experience.

:D

unless you've already made your money -- doug curtiss and tom teesdale know what they're doing, they will build a good bike, and they do it for less than a grand. the paint is not up to serotta standards, but they'll sell you a bare frame and decal kit, tell you to find a painter and knock yourself out.

as a rule, that 1000.00 point ain't a bad idea...but there are exceptions...I'm in line for a 1000.00 primus mootry that oughta kick some butt...and paul sadoff does a first-rate race frame for 1100.00....

[David Kirk]

A few random thoughts -

* it is very cool that folks want to be builders and do so professionally. Eventually the old guys will retire and have new folks move into those spots is a good thing. New guys coming in bring new ideas and a fresh point of view. A good thing.

* I've read in this thread and heard from some folks that there are new guys whose work they've seen that compares favorably with that of one of the established pros. I think that is true in a very few, very rare cases. Many of the works that I've seen touted as being as good as one of the "masters" falls far short when looked at with an experienced builder's eye. I've said it before and I'll say it again....... when I walk the isles at the Handmade show and look closely some of the work that is talked about online as if it's the holy grail is frankly poorly designed and poorly executed. I know it sounds harsh to say but in my view it's the truth. There is work that has a good reputation and deserves it and work that has a good reputation that is junque (note class added with euro spelling). One needs to look beyond the shiny stuff and bling to really see what is in front of them.

* I feel a bit like a broken record but at the risk of boring everyone I'll say it again. A few years into my Serotta gig I had an offer from a friend and cycling enthusiast to back me financially in my own building gig. I was very tempted. I'd built more frames in a few years than many guys do in a lifetime and thought I was the **** and that I could kick butt. But something deep inside told me that I shouldn't do it. I wasn't ready and I stayed put. Now in retrospect I know that I wasn't a very good builder then. I was OK but I wasn't a well rounded pro who should charge real money for my work. I still needed more time and experience and seasoning. At the point that I was tempted to go out on my own I "didn't know what I didn't know". I didn't have enough experience to know that there were vital things that I'd let to learn. Now, had I gone out on my own way back then I'll bet no one would have gotten hurt because my stuff came apart but I doubt that they would have really gotten what they paid for. It's my belief that there are a lot of builders out there now who've hung up their shingle too early and they are billing themselves as being on the downward slope of the learning curve (or they are being touted as the next coming by the online community who in many cases don't know what they are looking at in person let alone on their 17" monitor) when in reality they "don't know what they don't know".

* I agree with the Big Shanty guy and Sacha's quote. It would all work out better IF the new builder had the guts to point out to folks that they are still on the steeper part of the learning curve. I'll bet that there are a few that do this but I have a strong suspicion that most are so happy to have a potential sale that they don't want to sink the deal with a statement like "oh by the way this is only the 2nd Touring bike I've ever built, are you cool with that?" They need the sale and aren't about to kill it. If someone thinks you are a master don't argue. But the fact that a customer might think that they've found an undiscovered master doe not mean that the customer is right. Sacha nailed this in his quote.


In the end, in the big scheme of things none of this is all that important. Don't get me wrong. Bikes are my life and have been since I was a kid. But we are only talking about bikes. If someone ends up with a bike that isn't all that straight or doesn't fit too well life will go on.

Enjoy the ride and thanks for your attention.

dave

[dannyg1]

David,

When you say that an experienced builder sees things that we non-builders don't/can't, can you point out what it is that you're looking at specifically?

Danny

[e-RICHIE]

David,

When you say that an experienced builder sees things that we non-builders don't/can't, can you point out what it is that you're looking at specifically?

Danny
the varnish atmo.

[dannyg1]

the varnish atmo.

Twizzlers yo?

Danny

[e-RICHIE]

Twizzlers yo?

Danny
dannypedia 18.0 atmo -

[dannyg1]

dannypedia 18.0 atmo -

Word.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10001063

Danny

[e-RICHIE]

Word.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10001063

Danny
atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw)

[dannyg1]

atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw)

Fugazi but...ters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8e6-IeQ0aw

Dannypedia 18.1a

[CaptStash]

After moseying through this threadf I have a couple of thoughts:

1) There has to be a lot more to designing and building a bike than just the welding the pieces together. I am a welder (not a very good one though) and fully intend to slap a frame together at some point just to learn about and enjoy the process. Even if I was a great welder, it doesn't mean I could build a great bike though. An analogy would be a luthier. A good cabinet maker could probably build himself a guitar. But unless he was also a musician, it is unlikely he could build a good guitar because he wouldn't have the understanding of what makes one guitar better than another. A great guitar might take many many attempts -- and then he would just be re-learning what others already know.

2) What's all this fiddle dee dee and folderol about jigs? Seems to me that if a builder is a good metal worker he could make his own jig just the way he wanted. It seems like a pretty straightforward bit of machining -- and a builder ought to have a fair bit of machine tools at his disposal I would think. What am I missing here?

CaptStash....

[vaxn8r]

I understand what you are saying; it takes more than a class to make you a frame builder. I certainly wouldn’t disagree with you on that point. The problem is that the logic becomes circular. One can’t become a good frame builder without actually building frames, if your frames aren’t worth a damn then you can’t build frames. If you can’t build frames then you never get any better.

I think the idea of apprenticeships for frame builders is a good one, but it’s not always practical. The problem is this, even if you find a builder who is gracious enough to let you sweep the shop and run errands in exchange for showing you how to file your first lug or braze your first tube, you are still going to have to build your first bike at some point. Unless you are a prodigy, it probably won’t be so great. The truth is I would be shocked if bike 100 wasn’t always better than bike 1, but you have to start somewhere.

Additionally the very small margins that you are talking about make the apprentice process tougher to deal with. I’m guessing there probably aren’t a great many builders out there who can afford to pay a living wage to an apprentice, which means that an apprentice would have to live on next to nothing while learning the trade. There is no doubt that the watchful eye of a master craftsman is to your advantage, but it is not always practical, realistic, or possible and its absence shouldn’t necessarily preclude you from becoming a very good builder. Practice makes imperfection.

I find it hard to not respond here. I paid about $140K to go to med school. Then I worked for less than $3 an hour for 3 years before jumping to $6 for the 4th year. I didn't have a real job until I was 32. Not complaining, I freely signed up for that punishment, but why do you think someone who knows nothing about bike building should be entitled to earn a living wage while learning it?

If you were motivated you could be earning a living wage on the side, apprenticing on your free time if you found someone to take you in. Alternatively, I could easily see a guy building bikes for, say Co-Motion, for 5-10 years feeling like he'd learned a thing or two about framebuilding. I'd pay somebody with experience like that and feel pretty OK about it.

[vaxn8r]

A few random thoughts -

* it is very cool that folks want to be builders and do so professionally. Eventually the old guys will retire and have new folks move into those spots is a good thing. New guys coming in bring new ideas and a fresh point of view. A good thing.

* I've read in this thread and heard from some folks that there are new guys whose work they've seen that compares favorably with that of one of the established pros. I think that is true in a very few, very rare cases. Many of the works that I've seen touted as being as good as one of the "masters" falls far short when looked at with an experienced builder's eye. I've said it before and I'll say it again....... when I walk the isles at the Handmade show and look closely some of the work that is talked about online as if it's the holy grail is frankly poorly designed and poorly executed. I know it sounds harsh to say but in my view it's the truth. There is work that has a good reputation and deserves it and work that has a good reputation that is junque (note class added with euro spelling). One needs to look beyond the shiny stuff and bling to really see what is in front of them.

* I feel a bit like a broken record but at the risk of boring everyone I'll say it again. A few years into my Serotta gig I had an offer from a friend and cycling enthusiast to back me financially in my own building gig. I was very tempted. I'd built more frames in a few years than many guys do in a lifetime and thought I was the **** and that I could kick butt. But something deep inside told me that I shouldn't do it. I wasn't ready and I stayed put. Now in retrospect I know that I wasn't a very good builder then. I was OK but I wasn't a well rounded pro who should charge real money for my work. I still needed more time and experience and seasoning. At the point that I was tempted to go out on my own I "didn't know what I didn't know". I didn't have enough experience to know that there were vital things that I'd let to learn. Now, had I gone out on my own way back then I'll bet no one would have gotten hurt because my stuff came apart but I doubt that they would have really gotten what they paid for. It's my belief that there are a lot of builders out there now who've hung up their shingle too early and they are billing themselves as being on the downward slope of the learning curve (or they are being touted as the next coming by the online community who in many cases don't know what they are looking at in person let alone on their 17" monitor) when in reality they "don't know what they don't know".

* I agree with the Big Shanty guy and Sacha's quote. It would all work out better IF the new builder had the guts to point out to folks that they are still on the steeper part of the learning curve. I'll bet that there are a few that do this but I have a strong suspicion that most are so happy to have a potential sale that they don't want to sink the deal with a statement like "oh by the way this is only the 2nd Touring bike I've ever built, are you cool with that?" They need the sale and aren't about to kill it. If someone thinks you are a master don't argue. But the fact that a customer might think that they've found an undiscovered master doe not mean that the customer is right. Sacha nailed this in his quote.


In the end, in the big scheme of things none of this is all that important. Don't get me wrong. Bikes are my life and have been since I was a kid. But we are only talking about bikes. If someone ends up with a bike that isn't all that straight or doesn't fit too well life will go on.

Enjoy the ride and thanks for your attention.

dave

This should be a permanent sticky atmo. One of my all-time favorite posts. This is exactly why I tune in here all the time.

[Jack Brunk]

A few random thoughts -

* it is very cool that folks want to be builders and do so professionally. Eventually the old guys will retire and have new folks move into those spots is a good thing. New guys coming in bring new ideas and a fresh point of view. A good thing.

* I've read in this thread and heard from some folks that there are new guys whose work they've seen that compares favorably with that of one of the established pros. I think that is true in a very few, very rare cases. Many of the works that I've seen touted as being as good as one of the "masters" falls far short when looked at with an experienced builder's eye. I've said it before and I'll say it again....... when I walk the isles at the Handmade show and look closely some of the work that is talked about online as if it's the holy grail is frankly poorly designed and poorly executed. I know it sounds harsh to say but in my view it's the truth. There is work that has a good reputation and deserves it and work that has a good reputation that is junque (note class added with euro spelling). One needs to look beyond the shiny stuff and bling to really see what is in front of them.

* I feel a bit like a broken record but at the risk of boring everyone I'll say it again. A few years into my Serotta gig I had an offer from a friend and cycling enthusiast to back me financially in my own building gig. I was very tempted. I'd built more frames in a few years than many guys do in a lifetime and thought I was the **** and that I could kick butt. But something deep inside told me that I shouldn't do it. I wasn't ready and I stayed put. Now in retrospect I know that I wasn't a very good builder then. I was OK but I wasn't a well rounded pro who should charge real money for my work. I still needed more time and experience and seasoning. At the point that I was tempted to go out on my own I "didn't know what I didn't know". I didn't have enough experience to know that there were vital things that I'd let to learn. Now, had I gone out on my own way back then I'll bet no one would have gotten hurt because my stuff came apart but I doubt that they would have really gotten what they paid for. It's my belief that there are a lot of builders out there now who've hung up their shingle too early and they are billing themselves as being on the downward slope of the learning curve (or they are being touted as the next coming by the online community who in many cases don't know what they are looking at in person let alone on their 17" monitor) when in reality they "don't know what they don't know".

* I agree with the Big Shanty guy and Sacha's quote. It would all work out better IF the new builder had the guts to point out to folks that they are still on the steeper part of the learning curve. I'll bet that there are a few that do this but I have a strong suspicion that most are so happy to have a potential sale that they don't want to sink the deal with a statement like "oh by the way this is only the 2nd Touring bike I've ever built, are you cool with that?" They need the sale and aren't about to kill it. If someone thinks you are a master don't argue. But the fact that a customer might think that they've found an undiscovered master doe not mean that the customer is right. Sacha nailed this in his quote.


In the end, in the big scheme of things none of this is all that important. Don't get me wrong. Bikes are my life and have been since I was a kid. But we are only talking about bikes. If someone ends up with a bike that isn't all that straight or doesn't fit too well life will go on.

Enjoy the ride and thanks for your attention.

dave
A true master has spoken.

[shinomaster]

Wow, I'm just dying to know who the good builders are.

[Sacha White]

This rings true to me:

"Starting out on your own is fine, but if someone comes to you for a custom bike, they should understand your level of experience. There is no reason that they need to believe that you have it dialed, when you are still learning. Learning is cool, and an early customer should be stoked to be a part of that process. " - Sacha White, COG magazine, Issue 2

http://www.cogmag.com/02/vanilla-bicycles.html



gets it!

Seriously though, this quote comes directly from my own experiences and all I can say is that hindsight is 20/20.

When I was starting out, I don't remember pointing out my short comings for my customers. I didn't want to, as Dave said, "sink the deal" by sharing more info then was necessary and possibly just being overly critical of myself.

That said, when a cyclist goes to a new builder and they are getting a sub $1000 frame and fork, they are paying for materials and paint and little else. It may not be the greatest design to start with and that design will likely not be executed accurately (again speaking from experience). But the builder is probably making 2 dollars an hour on the frame (if that) and is effectively subsidizing the build with nearly free labor, because he want the opportunity to learn. I would say that the customer got what they paid for and wonder why they would have expect anything more.

-Sacha

[dannyg1]

A true master has spoken.


I don't know Jack, seems like you're letting him off too easy. If you think about how this works, the settled masters, though obviously worthy of their titles, would do better to explain fully the vagaries of what they posit.

So fine, a true master has spoken. Well, what did he teach us?

What is it that you see Dave? I've owned two Tom Kellogg frames in my life, the one I bought in 1982 (that was built in 82) and the Ross Signature that I now own. Both are extraordinary frames and I'm consistently amazed by the finish filing inside of the frames! But that applies to both frames; the one built in 82 and the one built earlier, before Tom had much experience.
Point is, I think the Ross is a better made frame and Tom was just a buck when he was building for Ross. He was the rare 'one', I'm to suppose?

Moyer Cycles, Ira Ryan, Jonny Cycles. These guys are young but they're friggin great at building frames, or am I just swayed by the varnish?

Danny

[Lifelover]

Does anybody know how long (or how many frames) John Slawta had been making frames when he made the won (intentional pun) Andy used in the Giro?

[davids]

David,

When you say that an experienced builder sees things that we non-builders don't/can't, can you point out what it is that you're looking at specifically?

DannyIf it was that easy to transfer the years of experience, the years of experience wouldn't matter.

Sorry, I don't see any shortcuts here. It's not magic, it's lots and lots of work.

[R2D2]

Does anybody know how long (or how many frames) John Slawta had been making frames when he made the won (intentional pun) Andy used in the Giro?

Which brings up an interesting question to me.
How does a frame builder establish a reputation today?
It used to be somebody rode the frame to a monumental victory on a world stage. But now the only frames that could do that are highly engineered, made of high tech materials ejected from molds and machiney that expense wise are out of reach for a individual. Although I hold it in high esteem individual craftmanship, it is not valued much today in the professional racing scene. I am in awe of builders that suffered like artists during an apprenticeship.They did it because they loved it and hopefully that ends up in the soul of the frames they produce.

[14max]

*

[davids]

Some of us might like to know who the good builders think are good builders, too...http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslinks.html

Scroll down to "Next Wave".

[dannyg1]

If it was that easy to transfer the years of experience, the years of experience wouldn't matter.

Sorry, I don't see any shortcuts here. It's not magic, it's lots and lots of work.

A true master has spoken.

Danny

[14max]

*

[J.Greene]

Does anybody know how long (or how many frames) John Slawta had been making frames when he made the won (intentional pun) Andy used in the Giro?

I think it was 5 years or so. He discussed this a few years ago at cirque. Slawta builds (and paints) as many bikes in a month as some people do all year. He is a one man production house.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Been there. I'd like to hear who would build a frameset for the top builders if, say, it's the last one they would ever own. And, no, they can't build that last one for themselves...
here atmo -
XXX (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331@N08/sets/72157600705950461/)

ps talk about thread drift huh.
i kinda sorta think a builder should learn his chops
before taking money, no matter how humble he is
in the presence of pending clients who may assume
he gets it. these are different times. if there are
fewer places to learn said chops, that is an indicator
of things to come. i have always felt this waymo.
starting a business based on two weeks at a pal's
place, or because you sold three frames to family
members is a recipe for mediocrity.

ducking.

[AgilisMerlin]

whoa...............

please don't fill with birdseed........

holy crapoli...........racing that this summer ?


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1339/750046802_55f45a6e5e.jpg?v=0

[14max]

*

[e-RICHIE]

Richard - I wish I could get to the site while at school. Our network admin has deemed it a Social Networking site and, therefore, a no no. How 'bout a synopsis?

FWIW, I agree with your post script. Sorry about adding to the drift...
it's not a site -
it's a link to my flickr page with the nagasawa i ordered.
you've seen it before atmo.

[14max]

*

[David Kirk]

I don't know Jack, seems like you're letting him off too easy. If you think about how this works, the settled masters, though obviously worthy of their titles, would do better to explain fully the vagaries of what they posit.

So fine, a true master has spoken. Well, what did he teach us?

What is it that you see Dave? I've owned two Tom Kellogg frames in my life, the one I bought in 1982 (that was built in 82) and the Ross Signature that I now own. Both are extraordinary frames and I'm consistently amazed by the finish filing inside of the frames! But that applies to both frames; the one built in 82 and the one built earlier, before Tom had much experience.
Point is, I think the Ross is a better made frame and Tom was just a buck when he was building for Ross. He was the rare 'one', I'm to suppose?

Moyer Cycles, Ira Ryan, Jonny Cycles. These guys are young but they're friggin great at building frames, or am I just swayed by the varnish?

Danny


Hey Danny,

I have no problem telling what I saw. Some things are no big deal and some are a much bigger deal. The thing that I wonder about is what do your everyday bikes look like if the ones you are bringing to the show to represent you are not top notch? Here are a few things I recall -

* crooked brake bridge.
* brake bridge too low so pads were all the way up and rubbed the tire.
* twisted frame - head tube relative to seat tube.
* badly undercut finish work on a fillet - meaning the tube was filed on pretty hard in attempt to blend the fillet in. The compromises the strength of the frame in a big way.
* wheels not centered between fork blades/chain or seat stays. Could be that the wheel was just put in hastily or it could be that the frame/fork weren't straight.
* gaps in lug lines. Might be slightly shy of fill or might indicate real structural issues.
* fixed gear frame with track drops whose slots were not parallel so that moving the wheel fore/aft changes the alignment.

These are the thing I recall off the top of my head in my early morning pre-coffee haze. If one thinks I'm too critical I'll cop to that. There was a period of time where I was the QC guy at Serotta and you very quickly learn to look at stuff in a critical manner. It becomes ingrained and hard to set aside. I looked hypercritically at 15 bikes a day for a long time and it's a habit that's hard to break.

One thing that can't be judged at a show is how the bike fits and rides. This is of course the thing that matters in the big picture. A pin stripe that wavers or a brake bridge that is a bit crooked won't otherwise ruin a nice fitting and riding bike. So it's hard to judge bikes at a show IMO. Bikes are meant to be used and ridden and most everything else is aesthetic. Most of the things that caught my attention where only aesthetic but a few (brake pads hitting tire, undercut fillets etc.) say to me that the bike really wasn't ready to be sold or shown.

Everyone makes mistakes. I know I do. I do my absolute best to keep it to a minimum but it does happen and I deal with it. Everyone is learning. After all these years I'm still learning and now realize I will never know it all, nor will anyone else. In my early days of building I made LOTS of mistakes and I was shown what they were and shown how to avoid them by the other guys at the shop who had more experience. This way VERY few goofs made it out the door. I'd made countless bikes and they looked fine to me but when looked at by a person with more time served (the QC guy) it became apparent that I was wrong. I recall taking bikes that looked fine to the chop saw and cutting them in two and then into the dumpster. They had a fatal flaw or one that would cost more to correct than it would to start over and build a new one. It's all part of the learning process. I was very fortunate to have done much of this learning on someone else's dime. It's too bad that this arrangement is not a realistic possibility for most new builders anymore. But it is what it is and it's harder now for a steel guy to learn his chops. On the other hand it's the heyday for learning to build with carbon or Ti. The pendulum swings.

One last note. When I write a post like this or the one I did last night I do so very seriously as I don't want to be misunderstood. I think one of the results of this is that I come off as harsh or condescending. My lovely wife Karin pointed that out to me last night. I'm sorry for the tone. I don't know how else to make my point and if anyone finds the tone insulting I apologize in advance as it's unintentional. I'm more comfortable working with my hands than I am typing and sometimes that shows.

Dave

[bhungerford]

maybe you're a little to hypercritical on your posts too? you've added a lot of info in this thread alone, and we'll all start looking for those crooked brake bridges and other flaws in our bikes (man i hope i don't find any!)

keep 'em coming, it's nice to have some insight/learning going on.

[e-RICHIE]

Hey Danny,

I have no problem telling what I saw. Some things are no big deal and some are a much bigger deal. The thing that I wonder about is what do your everyday bikes look like if the ones you are bringing to the show to represent you are not top notch? Here are a few things I recall -

* crooked brake bridge.
* brake bridge too low so pads were all the way up and rubbed the tire.
* twisted frame - head tube relative to seat tube.
* badly undercut finish work on a fillet - meaning the tube was filed on pretty hard in attempt to blend the fillet in. The compromises the strength of the frame in a big way.
* wheels not centered between fork blades/chain or seat stays. Could be that the wheel was just put in hastily or it could be that the frame/fork weren't straight.
* gaps in lug lines. Might be slightly shy of fill or might indicate real structural issues.
* fixed gear frame with track drops whose slots were not parallel so that moving the wheel fore/aft changes the alignment.

These are the thing I recall off the top of my head in my early morning pre-coffee haze. If one thinks I'm too critical I'll cop to that. There was a period of time where I was the QC guy at Serotta and you very quickly learn to look at stuff in a critical manner. It becomes ingrained and hard to set aside. I looked hypercritically at 15 bikes a day for a long time and it's a habit that's hard to break.

One thing that can't be judged at a show is how the bike fits and rides. This is of course the thing that matters in the big picture. A pin stripe that wavers or a brake bridge that is a bit crooked won't otherwise ruin a nice fitting and riding bike. So it's hard to judge bikes at a show IMO. Bikes are meant to be used and ridden and most everything else is aesthetic. Most of the things that caught my attention where only aesthetic but a few (brake pads hitting tire, undercut fillets etc.) say to me that the bike really wasn't ready to be sold or shown.

Everyone makes mistakes. I know I do. I do my absolute best to keep it to a minimum but it does happen and I deal with it. Everyone is learning. After all these years I'm still learning and now realize I will never know it all, nor will anyone else. In my early days of building I made LOTS of mistakes and I was shown what they were and shown how to avoid them by the other guys at the shop who had more experience. This way VERY few goofs made it out the door. I'd made countless bikes and they looked fine to me but when looked at by a person with more time served (the QC guy) it became apparent that I was wrong. I recall taking bikes that looked fine to the chop saw and cutting them in two and then into the dumpster. They had a fatal flaw or one that would cost more to correct than it would to start over and build a new one. It's all part of the learning process. I was very fortunate to have done much of this learning on someone else's dime. It's too bad that this arrangement is not a realistic possibility for most new builders anymore. But it is what it is and it's harder now for a steel guy to learn his chops. On the other hand it's the heyday for learning to build with carbon or Ti. The pendulum swings.

One last note. When I write a post like this or the one I did last night I do so very seriously as I don't want to be misunderstood. I think one of the results of this is that I come off as harsh or condescending. My lovely wife Karin pointed that out to me last night. I'm sorry for the tone. I don't know how else to make my point and if anyone finds the tone insulting I apologize in advance as it's unintentional. I'm more comfortable working with my hands than I am typing and sometimes that shows.

Dave
DaveKirkpedia 3.18 atmo -

[vaxn8r]

Hey Danny,

I have no problem telling what I saw. Some things are no big deal and some are a much bigger deal. The thing that I wonder about is what do your everyday bikes look like if the ones you are bringing to the show to represent you are not top notch? Here are a few things I recall -

* crooked brake bridge.
* brake bridge too low so pads were all the way up and rubbed the tire.
* twisted frame - head tube relative to seat tube.
* badly undercut finish work on a fillet - meaning the tube was filed on pretty hard in attempt to blend the fillet in. The compromises the strength of the frame in a big way.
* wheels not centered between fork blades/chain or seat stays. Could be that the wheel was just put in hastily or it could be that the frame/fork weren't straight.
* gaps in lug lines. Might be slightly shy of fill or might indicate real structural issues.
* fixed gear frame with track drops whose slots were not parallel so that moving the wheel fore/aft changes the alignment....


Dave

I remember that twisted frame...I think it was a Landshark. Man those seat stays were totally off.... ;)

[e-RICHIE]

I remember that twisted frame...I think it was a Landshark. Man those seat stays were totally off.... ;)
hey vax-issimo
this (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=542071&postcount=93) resonated with me atmo.

[William]

I remember that twisted frame...I think it was a Landshark. Man those seat stays were totally off.... ;)


Was that the "Escher" model?




William :)

[Lifelover]

I remember that twisted frame...I think it was a Landshark. Man those seat stays were totally off.... ;)


Did he have Dario paint that for him?

[shinomaster]

Assuming a newish builder can put a frame together properly and straight, how does one know if their bikes ride well? You certainly can't ride every bike you make. If a frame builder made a mediocre bike for my dad for example, he wouldn't know any better. How many of us can articulate what it is about a frame that is good or bad? How do you isolate a ride quality? Is the front end a noodle or is it the bar/stem? I thought a custom bike of mine rode funny but the shop assured me that it didn't. Who do you listen to? How long does it take for a builder to figure every thing out?

Just curious,

Shino

[e-RICHIE]

Assuming a newish builder can put a frame together properly and straight, how does one know if their bikes ride well? You certainly can't ride every bike you make. If a frame builder made a mediocre bike for my dad for example, he wouldn't know any better. How many of us can articulate what it is about a frame that is good or bad? How do you isolate a ride quality? Is the front end a noodle or is it the bar/stem? I thought a custom bike of mine rode funny but the shop assured me that it didn't. Who do you listen to? How long does it take for a builder to figure every thing out?

Just curious,

Shino
doh -
at the core of all this, it's less about what the client thinks
and more about what the cat taking the money brings to the
table. you never know everything. i'll go with that ol' saw that
suggests you get what you pay for. atmo there are too many
clueless folks taking money for frames, and i know it pisses them
off (as well as others who assume this is some touchy-feely kraft
spelled with a K) when i say stuff like thismo.

[shinomaster]

here atmo -
XXX (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331@N08/sets/72157600705950461/)

ps talk about thread drift huh.
i kinda sorta think a builder should learn his chops
before taking money, no matter how humble he is
in the presence of pending clients who may assume
he gets it. these are different times. if there are
fewer places to learn said chops, that is an indicator
of things to come. i have always felt this waymo.
starting a business based on two weeks at a pal's
place, or because you sold three frames to family
members is a recipe for mediocrity.

ducking.




Portland is heaving.

[e-RICHIE]

Portland is heaving.
atmo -

http://www.bubbleville.co.uk/buvilogo4.jpg

[J.Greene]

Man against machine

atmo -

http://www.bubbleville.co.uk/buvilogo4.jpg

[shinomaster]

Yes they are all blowing bubbles toward the fair town of Chester.

[Pete Serotta]

It is great to have David and Richard on here....by the way I had heard these same comments about some of the frames that were at the show from others....

This is not sour grapes and is just a statement of fact....You the individual can use your disposable Franc to buy anything......

I personally would prefer to buy a used frame if that was all my budget was than to purchase that sub $1000 frame. (just my view of things)

Would rather not let others experiment with me on their learning curve- -there are too many established builders and great off the shelf bikes to buy....(as SPOKE says life is too short")

One can have the same problems from bikes that are made in ITALY or CHINA....THe name on the frame does not mean an artist built it. Over the years I have seen a few Italian name frames that were less than stellar and definitely "looks wise" far from perfect.

YEs I am rambling again :confused: :confused: Net is that I buy from someone I trust and a product that has a established reputation.....(just me)



maybe you're a little to hypercritical on your posts too? you've added a lot of info in this thread alone, and we'll all start looking for those crooked brake bridges and other flaws in our bikes (man i hope i don't find any!)

keep 'em coming, it's nice to have some insight/learning going on.

[shinomaster]

It is great to have David and Richard on here....by the way I had heard these same comments about some of the frames that were at the show from others....

This is not sour grapes and is just a statement of fact....You the individual can use your disposable Franc to buy anything......

I personally would prefer to buy a used frame if that was all my budget was than to purchase that sub $1000 frame. (just my view of things)

Would rather not let others experiment with me on their learning curve- -there are too many established builders and great off the shelf bikes to buy....(as SPOKE says life is too short")

One can have the same problems from bikes that are made in ITALY or CHINA....THe name on the frame does not mean an artist built it. Over the years I have seen a few Italian name frames that were less than stellar and definitely "looks wise" far from perfect.

YEs I am rambling again :confused: :confused: Net is that I buy from someone I trust and a product that has a established reputation.....(just me)


Caad 4 baby!

[stuckey]

I had a frame built by a up and coming Portland builder, err a newer builder. It was not a horrible frame-set it just was not exactly what I expected to receive for the cash I laid out. There where things that were not done, clearances that were not right, and so forth. If I would of thought it out more I would of waited on a list for one of the bigger builders who came up through the ranks of production work. I think we should all be weary of anyone who went out on there own after a class... a story
I went to school for auto body and thought I knew my sh.t right out of the door. I went into a shop and got my butt handed to me the first day. it took a good year of doing grunt work and being helped to get a good feel of things and move on to the next area. It was a few years before I did hard hits and a couple of more before I became good at it. After almost ten years I am still learning. If I would of hung a shingle right out of the gate I would not know near as much as I do know. Needless to say I wish all of the luck in the world to the guys who have egos big enough to think they can learn it all on there own... They just will not be getting my money ever again. In any skilled trade it takes others to help show you the way. It takes starting from the small stuff before you move on to the big stuff. So many builders should hang up there torches and move on.

[e-RICHIE]

I had a frame built by a up and coming Portland builder, err a newer builder. It was not a horrible frame-set it just was not exactly what I expected to receive for the cash I laid out. There where things that were not done, clearances that were not right, and so forth. If I would of thought it out more I would of waited on a list for one of the bigger builders who came up through the ranks of production work. I think we should all be weary of anyone who went out on there own after a class... a story
I went to school for auto body and thought I knew my sh.t right out of the door. I went into a shop and got my butt handed to me the first day. it took a good year of doing grunt work and being helped to get a good feel of things and move on to the next area. It was a few years before I did hard hits and a couple of more before I became good at it. After almost ten years I am still learning. If I would of hung a shingle right out of the gate I would not know near as much as I do know. Needless to say I wish all of the luck in the world to the guys who have egos big enough to think they can learn it all on there own... They just will not be getting my money ever again. In any skilled trade it takes others to help show you the way. It takes starting from the small stuff before you move on to the big stuff. So many builders should hang up there torches and move on.

you are the conscience of my trade atmo.



ps -your post should be a stuckey.

[mjb266]

I for one think that we should look at what a fervor over framebuilding does for those who are established and experienced. Does a general excitement about custom hand built bicycle products mean more business for the really good ones even though there are some new builders at the fringes trying to make the cut?

I think Strong said at a seminar that he was teaching people about the business because more people pushing the quality level up, creating publicity, starting dialogue, etc. helped established builders.

Would having a 10% turnover rate for NAHBS builders/exhibitors mean that there was a healthy population size and that some were progressing towards being really good while others were getting "selected out"

[RIHans]

"While I don’t know this for sure, I’m guessing E-Richie’s first frame probably wasn’t a masterpiece either. I also seem to remember reading a quote from him somewhere that said it took him several years before he knew what he was doing. "


I should just post the picks of Sachs #1. It's here in RI. :)

[RIHans]

...reminds me of a months ago apprentice ****e.

You gotta put in the sweat to learn the nuts and bolts. The magic is in the nuts and bolts. The way your RS, Kirk, Weigle, Serotta, Colnago, Pinerello, all those super-nice riding bikes, rides, is from EXPERIENCE. Years at the bench. No substitute.

[JKlash]

I waited a little bit to post a reply because I wanted to roll it over in my mind and consider a response. This thread has been tremendously helpful to me, in allowing me to understand what it takes to become a master frame builder, the difference between a novice and a master, and letting me know what to look for when I shop for my next bike. Thank you to all involved and I hope I haven’t ruffled too many feathers as a newbie to the forum.

But, but, but, I still respectfully take issue with a few of the ideas or assertions that seem to be carrying the day.

I find it hard to not respond here. I paid about $140K to go to med school. Then I worked for less than $3 an hour for 3 years before jumping to $6 for the 4th year. I didn't have a real job until I was 32. Not complaining, I freely signed up for that punishment, but why do you think someone who knows nothing about bike building should be entitled to earn a living wage while learning it?

If you were motivated you could be earning a living wage on the side, apprenticing on your free time if you found someone to take you in. Alternatively, I could easily see a guy building bikes for, say Co-Motion, for 5-10 years feeling like he'd learned a thing or two about framebuilding. I'd pay somebody with experience like that and feel pretty OK about it.

I’m not sure what people find so persuasive about this argument. Is it that you feel nostalgic for the time when you lived hand to mouth? Or is it because you were economically exploited that you want to make sure other can’t avoid it? I was fairly specific; I didn’t say that they should be getting rich selling their fledgling exercises, rather that in order for an apprenticeship to work they would need to be paid a living wage. A living wage simply means a wage on which it is possible for an individual to live at least according to minimum customary standards. To me, this means food, shelter, access to medical care, and perhaps being able to save a little bit too (you have to pay for a jig somehow right?).

I guess the reason why I think a person is entitled to earn a living wage while learning how to build bikes is because it is a fairly standard practice among similar industrial trades. Comparing frame building to becoming a doctor is just somewhat ludicrous. The two professions share very little in common. Being a physician does require at least 10-years of potentially very expensive training (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs grad school, 3 yrs residency and that is if you choose not to specialize), but the reward is somewhat back loaded when you can reasonably expect a median income of $150k plus after a few years in practice. If most frame builders really are pulling in that kind of dough, I’ve misjudged the situation and will be considering a new profession. I think trades such as welder, carpenter, or plumber are much more apropos. This link demonstrates that apprentices in those fields are allowed to earn a very respectable wage:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/356181_trades24.html

I realize that my ideas might be a bit proletarian for some of you and I can assure you that the irony of having such a such a discussion on a forum hosted by one of the more expensive and exclusive bicycle brands is not lost on me. I want to make it clear that I have absolutely nothing against Serotta (if I’m ever in the market for a frame with that kind of money to spend, they will definitely be under consideration) or established frame builders who have earned the right to charge whatever they see fit for their work. Rather I’m just struck by the kind of elitism I’ve observed in this thread.

Sacha White’s comments in particular are both honest and a little confusing to me. He acknowledges that he made what most people would consider some fairly significant mistakes in his early days and he didn’t exactly go out of his way to inform his customers as to his exact skill/experience level, and now he is almost universally acknowledged as one of the most promising and desirable frame builders of the current wave, with a five plus year waitlist as proof. If this path was good enough for Sacha, and I think the results largely speak for themselves, what is to discourage Joe Blow frame builder from doing the same thing?

Am I the only one who finds the admonishment of this approach on one hand contrasted with the veneration of the results of it on the other a little hypocritical?

I would also like to respond to the suggestion that there is something inherently inadequate about a sub $1000 frame. I personally own a beautiful frame brazed by Doug Curtiss of Curtlo cycles made from True Temper S3 tubing that I paid $900 for in November of 2005 and I will take delivery of second one at a very comparable price in the next week or so. It doesn’t have any fancy lugs or a lustrous multi-step paint job, but I find beauty in its utilitarian simplicity and value. I don’t know how exactly he does it (remote location, no overhead, zero advertising?) and I don’t own a Serotta or Sachs to compare it to (not that I wouldn't like to), but I’ve been very satisfied with my experience. I highlight Doug because of my personal experience, but other builders have been mentioned in the thread too (Teesdale, Primus Mootery).

[stuckey]

JKlash you have a good argument about a living wage. The problem is a living wage in America is a laughing matter when it comes to most jobs. In the link you posted those jobs start a 10 dollars or less where I am at. I guess a lineman and a mason start higher but that is because they are still good union jobs. At work we just started two kids out of schools doing Auto Body work at 9 dollars a hour, I started a 7 nine years ago. 9 dollars a hour is not a living wage I do not care where you live, it is crap pay. (If I was to start over again I would steer away from skilled labor.) To cure the living wage problem is going to take curing a major power balance problem in this country. At this epoch you have to start in the trenches starving or hope the others earning crap can afford to pay your living wage. I think this is why most people buying custom steel are a lot wealthier than I... I know it is going to be stretch to pay for my new frame that is being built and I earn a so called living wage. The masters deserve there wage and more but the economy says no... Before we get all huffy and demand people learning the right to earn a living wage to learn... We need to make sure the rest of the country is starting on the path to a earning a living wage to afford there products and the masters can charge accordingly then. I still do not think a builder fresh out of the gate should charge 1500 plus for a frame. I still would not buy a Vanilla for another 6 plus years. This issue is underlined by many social problems that can not be addressed on a forum.

[Lifelover]

I waited a little bit to post a reply because I wanted to roll it over in my mind and consider a response. This thread has been tremendously helpful to me, in allowing m.......

..... I highlight Doug because of my personal experience, but other builders have been mentioned in the thread too (Teesdale, Primus Mootery).


I think the decent builders like Doug are making a fair living even though they are charging less than $1000 per frame.

E-Rich made a post about "details". I suspect that a premium builder like him, Sach, Kirk, Serotta etc. do spend allot more time on the details of the frame. From smoother joints to better finish. No question. These details distinguish their work to level that is beyond the function of a bike frame and for some people transition it to a level of arts and craft.

If you want a arts and craft product than you are going to pay more than you would for a bike frame. Shino talked about it with pottery. You can go buy a cup to drink you tea out of for $1.00 or you can but a piece of art in the form of a tea cup for $1000.

On the E-Rich site he says he make 8 - 10 frames a month. Since Curtlo probably does not spend the same amount of time with details (or posting on the internet) I suspect that he easily produces twice as many. They won't be art, but they don't need to be to provide a Bike Rider a little enjoyment or even to win a cyclist a race.

So at 16 frames a month for $1000 each it gives Doug a Gross of of 16K a month. Still not getting rich by any stretch of the imagination but it seems reasonable that he could clear 3 - 4 K a month. That's not a living wage for most on this board but it is most places in the country.

[brians647]

Or is it because you were economically exploited that you want to make sure other can’t avoid it? I was fairly specific; I didn’t say that they should be getting rich selling their fledgling exercises, rather that in order for an apprenticeship to work they would need to be paid a living wage. A living wage simply means a wage on which it is possible for an individual to live at least according to minimum customary standards. To me, this means food, shelter, access to medical care, and perhaps being able to save a little bit too (you have to pay for a jig somehow right?).

I guess the reason why I think a person is entitled to earn a living wage while learning how to build bikes is because it is a fairly standard practice among similar industrial trades. Comparing frame building to becoming a doctor is just somewhat ludicrous. The two professions share very little in common. Being a physician does require at least 10-years of potentially very expensive training (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs grad school, 3 yrs residency and that is if you choose not to specialize), but the reward is somewhat back loaded when you can reasonably expect a median income of $150k plus after a few years in practice. If most frame builders really are pulling in that kind of dough, I’ve misjudged the situation and will be considering a new profession. I think trades such as welder, carpenter, or plumber are much more apropos. This link demonstrates that apprentices in those fields are allowed to earn a very respectable wage:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/356181_trades24.html

I realize that my ideas might be a bit proletarian for some of you and I can assure you that the irony of having such a such a discussion on a forum hosted by one of the more expensive and exclusive bicycle brands is not lost on me. I want to make it clear that I have absolutely nothing against Serotta (if I’m ever in the market for a frame with that kind of money to spend, they will definitely be under consideration) or established frame builders who have earned the right to charge whatever they see fit for their work. Rather I’m just struck by the kind of elitism I’ve observed in this thread.

Sacha White’s comments in particular are both honest and a little confusing to me. He acknowledges that he made what most people would consider some fairly significant mistakes in his early days and he didn’t exactly go out of his way to inform his customers as to his exact skill/experience level, and now he is almost universally acknowledged as one of the most promising and desirable frame builders of the current wave, with a five plus year waitlist as proof. If this path was good enough for Sacha, and I think the results largely speak for themselves, what is to discourage Joe Blow frame builder from doing the same thing?

Am I the only one who finds the admonishment of this approach on one hand contrasted with the veneration of the results of it on the other a little hypocritical?


I don't think anyone is saying that an apprentice can't make a good living wage, I just think that the opinion of most that are in the know if that you can't be charging $2200 for a frame right out of the gate when your experience doesn't justify it.

Also, in regards to the "elitism," I think you're misreading things. I believe the "elitism" goes back to the newbies who are charging top dollar for their frames ($2200). Whey can't they charge only $1k like the example that you cited (Curtlo, which I just erased - sorry).

After re-reading Dave Kirk's direct, informative (and imho, humble) posts, it makes me look at frame builders prices with a better eye on value, rather than cost - even if I don't know what the heck to look for!

[bhungerford]

maybe it's not the folks charging a grand for learning or just starting out....maybe Erichie, White, Kirk, etc, etc should be charging more. when was the last time they had a price increase? seems to me the guys with the wait lists could easily charge more and people would still buy them. yes at some point that would flip, but i think for the quality they could probably charge a premium and many would gladly pay it for the name on the downtube.

[brians647]

maybe it's not the folks charging a grand for learning or just starting out....maybe Erichie, White, Kirk, etc, etc should be charging more. when was the last time they had a price increase? seems to me the guys with the wait lists could easily charge more and people would still buy them. yes at some point that would flip, but i think for the quality they could probably charge a premium and many would gladly pay it for the name on the downtube.

Some have, and could increase prices further while still being a "value." Others have wait lists so long they can't/won't guarantee prices for the finished frame! (yes, still worth it)

[e-RICHIE]

Some have, and could increase prices further while still being a "value." Others have wait lists so long they can't/won't guarantee prices for the finished frame! (yes, still worth it)
hey if c.l.& p., att, my insurance carrier, the oil companies,
my painter, his paint suppliers, the silver market, the mil
rate here in tony episcoville, the propane company, and
a host of others don't lock in prices past a single season,
we shouldn't either atmo.

[Pete Serotta]

What does this have to do with things...?? Great riding and wonderful ZEN. They also do not lock in prices on wine, past that bottle.

Is Richard and the others being asked to do something that no other sane business would do....>yeah , I know it is Richard but still :D :D

IS there a full moon out there? Cabin fever should be over, what is all the hostility> I have a case of good red in the basement that is looking to to b consumed.....come on down and lets all discuss.


hey if c.l.& p., att, my insurance carrier, the oil companies,
my painter, his paint suppliers, the silver market, the mil
rate here in tony episcoville, the propane company, and
a host of others don't lock in prices past a single season,
we shouldn't either atmo.

[e-RICHIE]

What does this have to do with things...?? Great riding and wonderful ZEN. They also do not lock in prices on wine, past that bottle.

Is Richard and the others being asked to do something that no other sane business would do....>yeah , I know it is Richard but still :D :D

IS there a full moon out there? Cabin fever should be over, what is all the hostility> I have a case of good red in the basement that is looking to to b consumed.....come on down and lets all discuss.
my motto atmo -
we don't lock in prices, nor lock you in the basement for 24 years atmo -

[Pete Serotta]

:argue:


my motto atmo -
we don't lock in prices, nor lock you in the basement for 24 years atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

:argue:
it's a basement not a wine cellar atmo!

[Pete Serotta]

I am not interested then,,,,,,,

it's a basement not a wine cellar atmo!

[dannyg1]

Hey Danny,

I have no problem telling what I saw. Some things are no big deal and some are a much bigger deal. The thing that I wonder about is what do your everyday bikes look like if the ones you are bringing to the show to represent you are not top notch? Here are a few things I recall -

* crooked brake bridge.
* brake bridge too low so pads were all the way up and rubbed the tire.
* twisted frame - head tube relative to seat tube.
* badly undercut finish work on a fillet - meaning the tube was filed on pretty hard in attempt to blend the fillet in. The compromises the strength of the frame in a big way.
* wheels not centered between fork blades/chain or seat stays. Could be that the wheel was just put in hastily or it could be that the frame/fork weren't straight.
* gaps in lug lines. Might be slightly shy of fill or might indicate real structural issues.
* fixed gear frame with track drops whose slots were not parallel so that moving the wheel fore/aft changes the alignment.

These are the thing I recall off the top of my head in my early morning pre-coffee haze. If one thinks I'm too critical I'll cop to that. There was a period of time where I was the QC guy at Serotta and you very quickly learn to look at stuff in a critical manner. It becomes ingrained and hard to set aside. I looked hypercritically at 15 bikes a day for a long time and it's a habit that's hard to break.

One thing that can't be judged at a show is how the bike fits and rides. This is of course the thing that matters in the big picture. A pin stripe that wavers or a brake bridge that is a bit crooked won't otherwise ruin a nice fitting and riding bike. So it's hard to judge bikes at a show IMO. Bikes are meant to be used and ridden and most everything else is aesthetic. Most of the things that caught my attention where only aesthetic but a few (brake pads hitting tire, undercut fillets etc.) say to me that the bike really wasn't ready to be sold or shown.

Everyone makes mistakes. I know I do. I do my absolute best to keep it to a minimum but it does happen and I deal with it. Everyone is learning. After all these years I'm still learning and now realize I will never know it all, nor will anyone else. In my early days of building I made LOTS of mistakes and I was shown what they were and shown how to avoid them by the other guys at the shop who had more experience. This way VERY few goofs made it out the door. I'd made countless bikes and they looked fine to me but when looked at by a person with more time served (the QC guy) it became apparent that I was wrong. I recall taking bikes that looked fine to the chop saw and cutting them in two and then into the dumpster. They had a fatal flaw or one that would cost more to correct than it would to start over and build a new one. It's all part of the learning process. I was very fortunate to have done much of this learning on someone else's dime. It's too bad that this arrangement is not a realistic possibility for most new builders anymore. But it is what it is and it's harder now for a steel guy to learn his chops. On the other hand it's the heyday for learning to build with carbon or Ti. The pendulum swings.


Dave

Dave,

Thanks for answering my question more thoroughly. IMO this is exactly the kind of information that helps everyone read through the fear driven platitudinous crap (Why don't they like me?) that is common social discourse and understand the point of the exercise. And as I said before, I realise that experience is requisite, though I'm still of the mind that patience and care can carry a less experienced builder through a new frontier build (I can't though,say that with any authority).

On the 'twisted head tube' flaw, from your list of things to look for: Is this typically a problem that comes from building too tightly in a jig? Or is it from overheating? Is this likely the problem Weigle was trying to fix (from another post in this thread) where he'd align one end and the other would pop out?

It's was my frustration with the darts eRichie was aiming at me (in good fun - I think...cooked him in the throwdown though:) .) that led the harsher tone of my second follow-up and I apologize to you for that.

Danny

[vaxn8r]

...I guess the reason why I think a person is entitled to earn a living wage while learning how to build bikes is because it is a fairly standard practice among similar industrial trades. Comparing frame building to becoming a doctor is just somewhat ludicrous. The two professions share very little in common. Being a physician does require at least 10-years of potentially very expensive training (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs grad school, 3 yrs residency and that is if you choose not to specialize), but the reward is somewhat back loaded when you can reasonably expect a median income of $150k plus after a few years in practice. If most frame builders really are pulling in that kind of dough, I’ve misjudged the situation and will be considering a new profession. I think trades such as welder, carpenter, or plumber are much more apropos...


I can't disagree more with your thought process. Technically anyone with an MD and 1 year of internship is licensed to practice medicine. With that they can charge whatever the going rate is. Should they? I hope not because after one year you have no idea what you don't know. Someone's going to get hurt. I tried not to make it about money because it really isn't. If you want to make it as such, well, I really don't expect you to put 80-100 hours a week for 12 years before you can charge for your first frame either.

OTOH, there is no way I would hire a plumber, framer, concrete worker, electrician or any other tradesman to work on my house or business if they had only ever done 1 or 2 jobs before. I want to look at references. I want reasonable assurance after the work is done I'm not left with the results of shoddy work or incompetence.

Now, if that "tradesperson", who really has never worked in the trade, is offering a steep discount to someone who might not be able to afford the service otherwise, well, everyone better go in with their eyes wide open. What happens when the foundation cracks and the house slides down the hill?

I just can't fathom that while learning any skilled job, expecting payment while still incompetent. Whether it's school or tradeschool or apprenticeship, it's all "paying dues" to get where you want to be. Right?

[e-RICHIE]

Dave,<snipped>
It's was my frustration with the darts eRichie was aiming at me (in good fun - I think...cooked him in the throwdown though:) .) that led the harsher tone of my second follow-up and I apologize to you for that.

Danny
what darts atmo?
really.
i have a life away from all this too, and don't follow every quip here.

[Sacha White]

snipped...

Sacha White’s comments in particular are both honest and a little confusing to me. He acknowledges that he made what most people would consider some fairly significant mistakes in his early days and he didn’t exactly go out of his way to inform his customers as to his exact skill/experience level, and now he is almost universally acknowledged as one of the most promising and desirable frame builders of the current wave, with a five plus year waitlist as proof. If this path was good enough for Sacha, and I think the results largely speak for themselves, what is to discourage Joe Blow frame builder from doing the same thing?

Am I the only one who finds the admonishment of this approach on one hand contrasted with the veneration of the results of it on the other a little hypocritical? ...

I'm not sure if this last bit was directed at me...

My point is that mine was one of many paths that can work, but builder and client should be straight with each other about what they are really able to offer.

A buyer should not expect a "pro" frame from someone who has less than 100 plus frames under their belt (if it seems too good to be true, it probably is). They also should not expect to pay peanuts for the work of someone who has years and years of full time experience.

It seems pretty clear to me that what a buyer is not paying for in $$$, they are paying for in being part of a learning experience for the builder. Stucky's experience is a perfect example here. If he had gone to Curt Goodrich for the same frame set, it would have cost at least twice as much, and would have taken twice as long to get, but it would have been on the money.

In my experience, my early frames went to people who understood the situation and wanted to be a part of that process.

It is difficult for one to own up to their short comings, and I can work on this as much as anyone, but I do think that honesty and forthrightness (one both the builder's and the client's end)wrt each builder's level of experience is called for at this time, in this booming little industry.

-Sacha

[Pete Serotta]

Very wise man,,,,,

[QUOTE=Sacha White

It is difficult for one to own up to their short comings, and I can work on this as much as anyone, but I do think that honesty and forthrightness (one both the builder's and the client's end)wrt each builder's level of experience is called for at this time, in this booming little industry.

-Sacha[/QUOTE]

[dannyg1]

what darts atmo?
really.
i have a life away from all this too, and don't follow every quip here.

atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmG4X9PGOXs&feature=user)

Sh*t's Whack yo!

[Lifelover]

atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmG4X9PGOXs&feature=user)

Sh*t's Whack yo!


That was off the Hook!

Me, I'm Straight Up G (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS0OktZpQw8&feature=related)

[saab2000]

Just curious, how long would it take a normal builder to put together a frameset, excluding paint?

You have the tubes in stock and I walk in and you agree the make a bike.

One working day? Two?

Just a pure curiosity and with no malice or commentary intended. Just wondering how long it takes from the time you start with the first tube in your hand to the time you can send it to the painter.

[e-RICHIE]

Just curious, how long would it take a normal builder to put together a frameset, excluding paint?

You have the tubes in stock and I walk in and you agree the make a bike.

One working day? Two?

Just a pure curiosity and with no malice or commentary intended. Just wondering how long it takes from the time you start with the first tube in your hand to the time you can send it to the painter.

for me, 2- 3 days of labor.
(no need to start with the jokes.)
but there is more to a framebuilding business than the bench time.
back in the 70s when i began (and knew far less), i was making
at least 3-4 frames a week. and that was with pre IC parts atmo.
the more ya know, the longer it can take. ya certainly don't wanna
leave out all those epiphanies atmo. that's why they pay us the big
bucks. the varnish, etcetera...

[benb]

If it takes 2-3 days non of the prices are even close to out of whack and nobody should be complaining.

If I put in an order for any bike from any company big or small and the frame shipped with any of the easily visible issues D. Kirk mentioned I sure as hell hope I could get my money back. (Assuming it wasn't a friend and I had agreed to be a guinea pig)

The only time I've ever seen a bike with issues that glaring was a bike that came from walmart..

[shinomaster]

I'm not sure if this last bit was directed at me...

My point is that mine was one of many paths that can work, but builder and client should be straight with each other about what they are really able to offer.

A buyer should not expect a "pro" frame from someone who has less than 100 plus frames under their belt (if it seems too good to be true, it probably is). They also should not expect to pay peanuts for the work of someone who has years and years of full time experience.

It seems pretty clear to me that what a buyer is not paying for in $$$, they are paying for in being part of a learning experience for the builder. Stucky's experience is a perfect example here. If he had gone to Curt Goodrich for the same frame set, it would have cost at least twice as much, and would have taken twice as long to get, but it would have been on the money.

In my experience, my early frames went to people who understood the situation and wanted to be a part of that process.

It is difficult for one to own up to their short comings, and I can work on this as much as anyone, but I do think that honesty and forthrightness (one both the builder's and the client's end)wrt each builder's level of experience is called for at this time, in this booming little industry.

-Sacha


At what point did you feel like you had it figured out?

[swoop]

didn't senor kirk write that bit here long ago about walking the aisles and looking at some of the latest and greatest of the mold/mass produced 'we won the tour' or whatever on these bikes and didn't he say you could see with your naked eye, the crap alignment on drop outs and wheels front back to front?

i know i don't have a billionth of the eye he does and i see it when i ride behind some guys...

[benb]

I haven't looked at other peoples bikes close enough to see things like crooked brake bridges, brake bridges at the wrong height, etc..

I also think I would have to at least put a bike in a workstand to see if it was misaligned, even grossly misaligned.

Could be you're enough faster then I am to be able to stare at people's bikes during a ride.. I definitely don't eyeball anyones bike to that level while riding. But I would notice those gross things if I was eyeballing it before paying for it. Worst case I'd get be noticing the first time I put it in the workstand and started working on it. Then I'd be really mad I didn't notice it earlier.

My mountain bike (Giant) definitely has issues. I can't necessarily see them.. I can very very easily feel them. I just don't ride it enough to warrant getting a different bike, didn't pay full price for it, and it's out of warranty, etc.. but it is immensely noticeable that it doesn't ride as straight as my Concours.. thing is if I'm riding the mountain bike offroad I don't care anyway. I bought it a long time ago.. not necessarily as clued in on what to look for when I bought it. I did start noticing the issues very quickly though.

If the issues are that bad and most people at NAHBS never noticed something is wrong.

edit: You see this stuff on the custom choppers (motorcycles) like crazy, but they are very good at hiding it.. sometimes it is hard for me compare the custom bikes to race bikes.. to me they sometimes border on being more comparable to custom choppers you see at "bling" motorcycle shows. If the target market doesn't ride them a lot, and doesn't do their own maintenance, no one is upset, and it doesn't really matter that they are not built straight, built well, etc.. success is more determined by marketing, brand image, etc.. and less by performance.

[swoop]

i guess you can be a frame maker or a guy who makes bikes.

[saab2000]

I haven't looked at other peoples bikes close enough to see things like crooked brake bridges, brake bridges at the wrong height, etc..

I also think I would have to at least put a bike in a workstand to see if it was misaligned, even grossly misaligned.



Just look at where the rear wheel is relative to the stays. Or see if the rear brake is centered. If not, and the wheel is likely dished correctly on a high-dollar pre-built Mavic or Campagnolo, there is something wrong. I see this on many bikes. Not on my Serotta CIII, which is truly precisely built.

[benb]

Yah.. I know how to look for that. Just saying.. not sure I can spot it at 25mph in a pack! I got the impression Swoop was saying he could.

Really.. just never thought to look at others bikes.. I never really concern myself with them. If someone else bike doesn't ride straight it's not my problem, and even if it's horrible I doubt I'd browbeat some guy for spending $5k on something that was crooked even if I did take the time to notice.

Makes me real glad I didn't pay full price for my Giant though. :)

[shinomaster]

My Japanese made Paramount had a messed up head tube lug with a gap between it and the down tube. It always bummed me out. It was pretty easy to spot.

[AgilisMerlin]

in 1989,

i was working for a friends shop. We ordered another longtime friend a bianchi time trial frame.

when the frame arrived it was built. Last to hang on the frame were the waterbottle cages. The waterbottle bosses on the seatube was so off, the cage would almost hit you in the leg when pedalling.

frame was sent back, and new frame sent.

It happens everyday, whether you are looking for it or not. I would not pay any money for a bike which was not built correctly.

I don't have the eye to catch all the missing details, but who would not be terribly disappointed with a crooked brake bridge, mis aligned dropouts, gaps in the lugs, crooked geometry, etc....

not hard to understand

[shinomaster]

So is it O.K. to send a frame back to the builder is it comes out crooked?

[R2D2]

didn't senor kirk write that bit here long ago about walking the aisles and looking at some of the latest and greatest of the mold/mass produced 'we won the tour' or whatever on these bikes and didn't he say you could see with your naked eye, the crap alignment on drop outs and wheels front back to front?

i know i don't have a billionth of the eye he does and i see it when i ride behind some guys...

It was at the NAHBS. Individuals showing their craftmanship .... NOT.

[acorn_user]

It's late. I hope this is coherent.
Master should be able to charge the earth if they like. They have earnt it. For apprentices (those on the up curve), well I don't think I would pay similar money to be a part of it. For less, I might want to join in the learning experience.

It's a pity the British system did not make it over here. Many shops also had frameshops, which also picked up contract work from other shops looking for own brand frames. This is dying a little, but means that there are places to go for learning over the long term. Here, learning is done in the bright, unmerciful glare of t'interweb.

Interestingly, perception of price is very different. My local frame builder of 20+ years experience has a base price of 300 pounds, inc 17.5% sales tax. When Witcomb hiked their prices lately (and brought on a brand manager), it caused outrage on the london fixed gear message boards. But none of them (except Robin Mather) has a good internet presence like Serotta, Sachs, or any number of others.

But they are mostly selling to touring cyclists, the most tight fisted subspecies :)

[JohnHemlock]

Bumping this thread 'cause it's worth a read.

[bhungerford]

it is very good, i re-read it this morning. in particular Dave Kirk's posts are very insightful.

[e-RICHIE]

Bumping this thread 'cause it's worth a read.



amen sista' atmo.

[mister]

this thread makes me think of a guy that is getting a frame built...i forget the builder...but it seemed like he was a newb builder when i checked his website.
i decided to go with a builder who has been building for a long time. i know the other guy has a fair chance be happy with what he gets...i feel i have a better chance than him though atmo.

also, i keep seeing prices around 2000-2200 for a frame from a relatively new builder and then i remember my brother only paid 1500 for his yamaguchi frame and fork...do you sometimes get more than you pay for atmo.

[girlie]

amen sista' atmo.

Oy vey imho

[L84dinr]

When i asked Fred Karcher to build a frame for me i had the same thought process re: Fred's "chops". I felt he knew bikes, and was intimate with what made a bike "it". How one should ride and where the wheels should be placed etc... I have always been happy and satisfied after purchasing my frame and fork from Fred and have ridden it proudly for many years. The few times i have listed it for sale kinda makes me bummed... (seems there is always another bike to try, but to get on a "new" bike i have to move one; same old song and dance) But it hasnt ever sold (shrug) and so i will be riding it for many years to come.

"Starting out on your own is fine, but if someone comes to you for a custom bike, they should understand your level of experience. There is no reason that they need to believe that you have it dialed, when you are still learning. Learning is cool, and an early customer should be stoked to be a part of that process. " - Sacha White, COG magazine, Issue 2
http://www.cogmag.com/02/vanilla-bicycles.html