negotiating tight single track

[jimcav]

so i had my last of a 3 series XC race. did okay and was 2nd in my age group overall for the series. i was following a young woman who dropped down from expert to sport (they changed the course after the 1st race--much tougher now). anyway, i noticed on many turns she got out of the saddle--i assumed it was b/c she was on a hard tail, but wonder if it is a balance for turning thing.
i tend to have trouble holding speed in tight stuff, i end up going wide (understeer?). anyone know, in general, if you move you weight a little forward will you be able to carve tighter?
yes, i probably should have asked her, but i didn't
thanks
jim

[David Kirk]

Counter-steer. It's easier to lean the bike back and forth quickly without your butt stuck to the saddle.

if you are riding wide in single track it might be the line you pick,,,,,,,,but if it feels like you are on the right line but can't hold it it comes down to being able the properly counter-steer.

Proper counter steer will open up a whole range of lines and moves and even allow for 2 wheel drifting. That's good clean fun.

Have you practiced counter-steer?

Dave

[coylifut]

yes. If you move your weight forward you should be able to carve a tighter turn. More importantly, the farther you look up trail the better you'll see the correct line. It lowers your perceived speed and allows you to tackle it faster.

Read Brian Lopes book Mastering Mountain Bike Skills. Lot's of good stuff in there.

[jimcav]

Counter-steer. It's easier to lean the bike back and forth quickly without your butt stuck to the saddle.

if you are riding wide in single track it might be the line you pick,,,,,,,,but if it feels like you are on the right line but can't hold it it comes down to being able the properly counter-steer.

Proper counter steer will open up a whole range of lines and moves and even allow for 2 wheel drifting. That's good clean fun.

Have you practiced counter-steer?

Dave

i hardly ever get to mtb. did these 3 races this year, last year it was the same 3 and then 3 training rides. i'll read up on it, because i am with or insight of the leaders on the long fireroad climb up to the single track, and then they dust me.
thanks!
jim

[musgravecycles]

Want to learn to be fluid on a mtb; pick up a single speed and ride it for a season...

[Big Daddy]

tight single track? got lube?

[Dave B]

Pick up Ned OPverend's mtb video, it is old, but actually pretty good.

On a tight line, between trees try to keep the body in the same plane as the bike. Push your outter leg straight like your trying to break off the outside pedal. This plants your tire edge into the ground. Trust it...if you have good tires.

break before the turn so you come out of it pedaling and accelerating. If you are breaking in the turn it will/can cause your tires to wash dependign on your terrain. Focus on one thing. If you are breaking and turning at the same time you lose focus. atmo.

there are loads of cool tricks...mtbing saves lives.

[chuckred]

so i had my last of a 3 series XC race. did okay and was 2nd in my age group overall for the series. jim

If you don't do much mountain biking and did that well, I'd say you're just a little practice away from huge improvement!

Look for a skills clinic - our club puts one on with Allison Dunlop every year. Haven't done it yet (signed up this year), but hear she's a great instructor and in a couple of hours can teach skills that you may never have picked up on or practiced until someone pointed them out.

When I go wide in a corner - it's lack of confidence that the tires will hold, but I doubt I've really pushed the limits.

[benb]

If you're doing everything right, countersteering, body position is right, etc.. you should feel the front wheel start to slide before you run wide..

Not much more satisfying then railing the corner and getting a little front wheel slide going and not crashing. :D

[Ginger]

:) (classic roadie in a trail race issue...)

Good advice here on the counter steering.

Double check that your tires are good for the course and not over inflated. Too many riders put too much air in their tires and wonder why they slip a bit and loose that power that they put down on the trail.

[BURCH]

If it is really tight cornering with a 45-90 degree turn, I am out of the saddle to be able to pick up my back wheel (like a small endo) and kick it to the left or right depending on the turn. I can only do this while standing up. What you are asking about might be faster and less sharp cornering though.

[jimcav]

If it is really tight cornering with a 45-90 degree turn, I am out of the saddle to be able to pick up my back wheel (like a small endo) and kick it to the left or right depending on the turn. I can only do this while standing up. What you are asking about might be faster and less sharp cornering though.

runs through tight underbrush, trees, some hard turns, some great than 90 degrees, but even on the lesser snake-like paths i can't hold the same speed.

I only do okay because the course is about 15 miles and has at least 5 miles of fireroads, so i can motor on those.

i'll read up on countersteering and try to work on that. i have also enver practiced kicking the rear around on a switchback--will work on that too
thanks
jim

[Ken Robb]

Not many tight paths in town here, Newbie. :)

[BURCH]

i have also enver practiced kicking the rear around on a switchback--will work on that too


I spent a summer concentrating on the rear wheel kicking and now I love using it on tough cornering and sometimes it helps in rock gardens that you can't just barrel thru. I find it as useful as being able to bunny hop cleanly over small logs.

[gdw]

North Carolina?

[avalonracing]

As Ginger said check that tire pressure.
Roadies almost always ride too much pressure on the trail. Yes... I did this for years. It seems counterintuitive but it is faster to have lower pressure than you think on the trail. Find a fast expert about the same weight and check the pressure out (note, tubeless tires can be run with less pressure, so don't under inflate tube tires or you'll snakebite flat... and that is not a good way to win)

[link]

++ on the countersteer.

On the tight twisty single track keep you body from the waist up vertical and angulate your body from the hips down as you lean your frame into the turn. Yeah, you gotta have you butt off the saddle for quickness and angle modulation

It's really easy to get rapid, sharp turn response like this. You can also adjust your line very quickly too to increase the radius or just straighten out as the turn completes.

The countersteer comes into play as you pressure the side of the handle bar on the inside of the turn.

It's really fun to play around with the lean angle to see how sharp a turn you can make. Like DK said, you can also play around with drifting since your upper body is upright and you can easily bring the frame angle back upright to correct too much drift.

It's a lot like skiing in regards to short radius turn shape - more angulation than inclination.

[Ginger]

i noticed on many turns she got out of the saddle--i assumed it was b/c she was on a hard tail, but wonder if it is a balance for turning thing.
i tend to have trouble holding speed in tight stuff, i end up going wide (understeer?).

I take it you're not riding a hardtail?

My opinion is outdated. But it used to be that some full bounce bikes didn't like the rider out of the saddle much so when you did get out of the saddle, you had to apply a bit more thought to rider position/balance front to rear keep the suspension/drivetrain "happy" and to keep tires in contact with dirt...doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the saddle, just things didn't necessarily work quite the same as a hard tail when you did unless you were paying attention.
..perhaps someone with a more up to date experience could chime in...

practice makes perfect

That probably hasn't changed.

[mgm777]

This is great information. I too, am primarily a roadie. Last week, a friend invited me to join him and a couple of friends for a ride in the mountains on a loop that was primarily single track. The four of us were single file, with me in the #2 position, behind an accomplished MTB racer. He also remained standing through the tight stuff and just seemed to "dance" over and around the difficult parts. When I compared myself to him, I felt like I was just learning how to ride. The counter-steer and lower pressure advice seems dead on. Properly riding an MTB is akin to learning a whole new art form.

[jimcav]

I take it you're not riding a hardtail?

My opinion is outdated. But it used to be that some full bounce bikes didn't like the rider out of the saddle much so when you did get out of the saddle, you had to apply a bit more thought to rider position/balance front to rear keep the suspension/drivetrain "happy" and to keep tires in contact with dirt...doesn't mean you couldn't get out of the saddle, just things didn't necessarily work quite the same as a hard tail when you did unless you were paying attention.
..perhaps someone with a more up to date experience could chime in...

practice makes perfect

That probably hasn't changed.

got it a few months ago (sold my old FS bike, then saw this at $800, so wanted to try it for the series--new i'd not be competitive on my
SS 29er). Only 3 times i've ridden it was the 3 race series. course #1 was easy, then they changed the course--much more single track, more switch-backing, rooty uphills, etc.
before that i had a giant nrs, and i also did the course last year on my 29er SS (that was the old course, not the new course)--either way i was slower than those i rode with going down, or twisty (except uphill--i climb okay)
thanks
jim

[Kane]

[QUOTE=jimcav] anyway, i noticed on many turns she got out of the saddle--i assumed it was b/c she was on a hard tail, but wonder if it is a balance for turning thing.
i tend to have trouble holding speed in tight stuff, i end up going wide (understeer?). anyone know, in general, if you move you weight a little forward will you be able to carve tighter? [QUOTE]

Come to N. Cal and take a ride at Tamarancho, the world's greatest 9.5 single track loop. We've got 56 switchbacks for you to practice.

The technique on swithbacks varies between uphill, (weight shift forward and to the inside of the turn) and downhill, (weight shift behind and lateral to outside of the turn.

I remember taking my brother on that ride. He is a very good road rider and a good, but inexperienced mtn bike rider. He followed me on the ride. I asked him what he thought about the ride when it was over and he said, "Wow! That kicked my ass."

"How many swithbacks did you make?", I asked.

"About four!", he responded.

Depending on the cant of the ground in the turn, the dance on the pedals change and the balance position shifts to keep the rider upright.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Kane

[Dave B]

got it a few months ago (sold my old FS bike, then saw this at $800, so wanted to try it for the series--new i'd not be competitive on my
SS 29er). Only 3 times i've ridden it was the 3 race series. course #1 was easy, then they changed the course--much more single track, more switch-backing, rooty uphills, etc.
before that i had a giant nrs, and i also did the course last year on my 29er SS (that was the old course, not the new course)--either way i was slower than those i rode with going down, or twisty (except uphill--i climb okay)
thanks
jim


Had one and have a couple of thoughts.

The lefty (if you have it) dives a lot more unless it has the FOX terralogic. It is the one serious weakness of the lefty. Lowering your front end into a corner obviously changes your attack angle and how you "fit" on the bike. The rear end is brilliant and the stiffness of the lefty is great, but in corners or on severe down slopes the lefty isn't as great. Don't add air to make it lessen or you lose the benefits of what it can do for you. If it has a lock out feature on top you might try switching it to lock out before a turn is coming on. I know it sounds like more work, but you will notice a difference.

I am sure you know this already. But for me and mtbing...it takes practice practice practice. I think road bikes handle so differently that you have to work less to understand how they feel. I have been on rides with roadies when they ride Full Sussers for the first time. They contstantly freak about the bike moving.

[scrooge]

Nothing to add in the answers department (I like to MTB, but am terrible at it--it's a balance/courage thing for me), but silly question--could someone help me understand countersteering?

Jim, what kind of SS do you have?

[jimcav]

Nothing to add in the answers department (I like to MTB, but am terrible at it--it's a balance/courage thing for me), but silly question--could someone help me understand countersteering?

Jim, what kind of SS do you have?
it is how cars and motorbikes turn on dirt tracks, cool to see--harder to do in person on a bike--you need some speed to do it. i have never really practiced it--as i you see i need to.
someone correct me if i'm wrong, but if you are needing to turn RIGHT, you initiate the turn, but then you sort of push against the RIGHT grip?

my bike is a FISHER RIG 29er SS, but if i can get better on the scalpel, i will sell the RIG, as i think having a light FS is more versatile for san diego area riding. although the RIG may be a better training bike for better skills.

jim

[David Kirk]

it is how cars and motorbikes turn on dirt tracks, cool to see--harder to do in person on a bike--you need some speed to do it. i have never really practiced it--as i you see i need to.
someone correct me if i'm wrong, but if you are needing to turn RIGHT, you initiate the turn, but then you sort of push against the RIGHT grip?

my bike is a FISHER RIG 29er SS, but if i can get better on the scalpel, i will sell the RIG, as i think having a light FS is more versatile for san diego area riding. although the RIG may be a better training bike for better skills.

jim

I disagree.

You can't countersteer a car but you can a bicycle or motorcycle. You can "oversteer" a car which involves sliding the rear of the car to help cahnge direction.

Countersteer is something else entirely and has nothing to do with sliding. In fact it works best when there is not slide at all.

i'm in the middle of making the donuts at the moment so I can't write a long deal about countersteer but here's the Cliffnotes version.

There are tow ways to steer a bike -

1) using the handlebar like a tiller. You want to turn left, you twist the handlebar to the left. This only works at very low speeds. If you are riding along, bike upright, and you just twist the handlebar to the left and do nothing else the bike will turn left and it will lean to the right (highside). This is the cause of taking too wide a line on the road or the trail or wherever. The bike leans the wrong way and cause you to back off on the steering input and then try it all over again. Turns are jerky and have a longer radius than desired. The more you twist the bars the less you turn. Put on a full set of leathers and go out and try to just twist the bars at 30mph and get ready to see how good the leathers work.

The other way is countersteering. Bikes turn at anything other than very low speeds due to the bike being leaned. You lean the bike and it "falls" in the direction of the lean and you go that way. So you lean the bike to the left and it will CARVE left. The more you lean the more you turn. It stops turning when you lean it back upright. It's simple to do. Pick a big parking lot or smooth grass field. We are going to make a left turn. Ride straight ahead with your hands on the drops on a road bike (most stable). Now to start the turn push your left hand forward and down. Sounds wacked I know but you have nothing to hit so don't be a wuss and trust me. Push the left hand forward and down. The bike will lean to the left and then carve hard to the left. To release it from the turn let up on the down/forward pressure and the bike will straighten up and go straight again. Magic. Practice this A LOT.



What is actually happening here is that when you press the left side of the bar forward and down you are twisting the bars to the right slightly while leaning left and the wheels comes out from underneath you causing the bike to lean and turn. This is the reason it's called countersteering. You turn right to go left.

If this last part is confusing wipe it out of your head and go out and feel and practice. It works every time.

Back to playing with metal for me.

dave

[jimcav]

I disagree....
Countersteer is something else entirely and has nothing to do with sliding. In fact it works best when there is not slide at all...


The other way is countersteering. Bikes turn at anything other than very low speeds due to the bike being leaned. You lean the bike and it "falls" in the direction of the lean and you go that way. So you lean the bike to the left and it will CARVE left. The more you lean the more you turn. It stops turning when you lean it back upright. It's simple to do. Pick a big parking lot or smooth grass field. We are going to make a left turn. Ride straight ahead with your hands on the drops on a road bike (most stable). Now to start the turn push your left hand forward and down. Sounds wacked I know but you have nothing to hit so don't be a wuss and trust me. Push the left hand forward and down. The bike will lean to the left and then carve hard to the left. To release it from the turn let up on the down/forward pressure and the bike will straighten up and go straight again. Magic. Practice this A LOT.

What is actually happening here is that when you press the left side of the bar forward and down you are twisting the bars to the right slightly while leaning left and the wheels comes out from underneath you causing the bike to lean and turn. This is the reason it's called countersteering. You turn right to go left.

If this last part is confusing wipe it out of your head and go out and feel and practice. It works every time.

Back to playing with metal for me.

dave
I will add push downward to my understanding of forward. i think that is how i do turn a road bike--more of the lean--although i never did it to any extreme as i don't do crits. it is not as natural to me (at all) on singletrack.
But, as for cars, motorcycles, what do you call it when they are doing dirt turns, and the front wheels are pointed opposite of the turn direction--that is not countersteering? it is how i learned to control rear slide on snow in indiana--example: left turn, rear end drifts/slides right, you turn the wheel right. on the dirt track, their speed is forcing the rear to drift out, and they turn the wheel away from the turn, and they still carve the turn because the rear is driving forward? yes the rear is trying to slide out, but the front is turned opposite to counter it, is that not countersteering?

thanks
jim

[scrooge]

Thanks Dave.

Is this what someone (Walt, who built my MTB and is a former pro) meant when he told me that you don't really turn by turning the bars (like you'd turn a steering wheel on a car) but by putting weight on them?
(Not a direct quote, but that's how I've been thinking about it...)


I disagree.

You can't countersteer a car but you can a bicycle or motorcycle. You can "oversteer" a car which involves sliding the rear of the car to help cahnge direction.

Countersteer is something else entirely and has nothing to do with sliding. In fact it works best when there is not slide at all.

i'm in the middle of making the donuts at the moment so I can't write a long deal about countersteer but here's the Cliffnotes version.

There are tow ways to steer a bike -

1) using the handlebar like a tiller. You want to turn left, you twist the handlebar to the left. This only works at very low speeds. If you are riding along, bike upright, and you just twist the handlebar to the left and do nothing else the bike will turn left and it will lean to the right (highside). This is the cause of taking too wide a line on the road or the trail or wherever. The bike leans the wrong way and cause you to back off on the steering input and then try it all over again. Turns are jerky and have a longer radius than desired. The more you twist the bars the less you turn. Put on a full set of leathers and go out and try to just twist the bars at 30mph and get ready to see how good the leathers work.

The other way is countersteering. Bikes turn at anything other than very low speeds due to the bike being leaned. You lean the bike and it "falls" in the direction of the lean and you go that way. So you lean the bike to the left and it will CARVE left. The more you lean the more you turn. It stops turning when you lean it back upright. It's simple to do. Pick a big parking lot or smooth grass field. We are going to make a left turn. Ride straight ahead with your hands on the drops on a road bike (most stable). Now to start the turn push your left hand forward and down. Sounds wacked I know but you have nothing to hit so don't be a wuss and trust me. Push the left hand forward and down. The bike will lean to the left and then carve hard to the left. To release it from the turn let up on the down/forward pressure and the bike will straighten up and go straight again. Magic. Practice this A LOT.



What is actually happening here is that when you press the left side of the bar forward and down you are twisting the bars to the right slightly while leaning left and the wheels comes out from underneath you causing the bike to lean and turn. This is the reason it's called countersteering. You turn right to go left.

If this last part is confusing wipe it out of your head and go out and feel and practice. It works every time.

Back to playing with metal for me.

dave