Stem flipped down or up?

[Louis]

Which one of these would look less bad?

1) A -8* stem flipped down so it is essentially parallel to the TT, but quite a few spacers under the stem, or,

2) The same stem flipped up so it is noticeably pointing up, but fewer spacers under the stem?

(Flipping the stem gains me about 25 mm in height for the bars.)

I'd rather not do either of these, but my lower back will thank me in the long run. Also, I sort of have to decide now, because it's an Alpha-Q fork with the glued-in aluminum deal that the top, which I'm guessing I won't be able to cut once I glue the nut in.

TIA
Louis

[Cary Ford]

Death before flipping.

[avalonracing]

It depends... 2cm or less of spacers will look okay. 7cm of spacers... Not cool!

[Louis]

It depends... 2cm or less of spacers will look okay. 7cm of spacers... Not cool!

With stem down I'll need about 35mm (more than "look OK")

With stem up I'll need about 10mm (more reasonable, but stem will look aroused)

[Bradford]

If you 18 or under do what looks cool, if you have already graduated from high school, do what works and move on with you life.

[witcombusa]

Get the position you want....flip the stem up and RIDE!

[saab2000]

Death before flipping.

word

[justinf]

my wife would say yoga. . .

[Lifelover]

Up!

Spacers jump out at me more than stem angle.

[e-RICHIE]

flipped up atmo? sing along -


http://www.voccoquan.com/images2006/village%20people.jpg

[jerk]

unless you're not using your frucking bt or look pursuit bike for the keirin or sprint events at a uci world cup....the stem goes on the right way...always.

jerk

[J.Greene]

Which one of these would look less bad?



Look in the gallery, plenty of examples.

JG

[avalonracing]

With stem down I'll need about 35mm (more than "look OK")

With stem up I'll need about 10mm (more reasonable, but stem will look aroused)

Run it up... It will look fine with the current bike aesthetic.

[jerk]

Run it up... It will look fine with the current bike aesthetic.



to who? the blind?

again, if its a questio of aesthetics, the only bikes that look righ with upside down stems are supershort head tubed track bikes when guys need to use those bikes for drop bar events.

[justinf]

reminds me of what pal CPP had to say once regarding triples:

"that's the day I take up fvcking golf. And I fvcking hate golf!"

[Lifelover]

Are these representative samples?


http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=21616&stc=1

And

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7958/rsyg6.jpg


If so, I'll take the first.

[Louis]

reminds me of what pal CPP had to say once regarding triples:

"that's the day I take up fvcking golf. And I fvcking hate golf!"

I crossed that triple bridge a long, long time ago... :)

Are these representative samples?

Kind of, except that

1) My frame has a sloping TT

2) I'd have more spacer than the black Sachs. Plus, I'm not sure what the angle is on that stem, but I think a flipped up 8* points up a bit more than that one.

3) With my stem down it's much closer to parallel to the TT than in the blue Sachs because of my sloping TT.

I've given it some thought and was just downstairs playing around with the various options on the bike and I think I'm going to go with the upturned stem (horrors!!!). It's not quite as bad as more spacers, and sloping TT helps mitigate the effect. I also think that I'll cut the steerer tube long to give me the option later of raising it a bit and going with a stem that is closer to 90* which would not be quite egregious as the 8* up. (Except that there are very few silver stems, and who knows if there are any in 84-85*....) Arrrrgh. :crap:

But I guess this is part of the fun - wrestling with all the little details. Otherwise, I could just walk into the Trek store and ask them to sell me something right off the floor. :no:

Well, I have plenty of time to change my mind, and I want to get the whole thing built up before I make any irreversible mods like cutting the steerer or gluing in the nut.

Thanks for the feedback.

Louis

[swoop]

i don't get my style cues from a flintstone.

there is only one way for a stem. (exceptions only for the track).

[Jack Brunk]

unless you're not using your frucking bt or look pursuit bike for the keirin or sprint events at a uci world cup....the stem goes on the right way...always.

jerk
Another genius.

[Louis]

Related thread drift:

If all these guys with rubber spines want to tell me how to best train my 46 yr old body to get my lower back to allow me to ride with more saddle-bar drop I'm all ears.

I think there are lots of other folks out there who would also be interested in hearing this.

Louis

[swoop]

Related thread drift:

If all these guys with rubber spines want to tell me how to best train my 46 yr old body to get my lower back to allow me to ride with more saddle-bar drop I'm all ears.

I think there are lots of other folks out there who would also be interested in hearing this.

Louis
46 isn't old. drop isn't an accomplishment.. having a bike set up and looking good is the accomplishment!

[Sandy]

It depends... 2cm or less of spacers will look okay. 7cm of spacers... Not cool!

7cm of spacers.....Not safe!


Safety Sandy

[Louis]

having a bike set up and looking good is the accomplishment!

True, but having it rideable for the distance is an even more important accomplishment in my book.

[Blue Jays]

Just ensure a 5mm spacer remains above the stem for strength/structural reasons.

[swoop]

True, but having it rideable for the distance is an even more important accomplishment in my book.

neither are mutually exclusive if
a) the bike fits
b) the rider is fit enough

there was a question posed with two options. one option was selected.
blame the question.

[mgm777]

looks better = stem down
feels better = stem up

_____________________

De-evolution

1. Stem Up
2. 25 mm tires
3. prefer flex over rigid
4. start eyeing tandems in the classifieds
5. thinking a bent is pretty cool

No offense to our esteemed tandem and bent drivers. ;)

[swoop]

if you guys are sitting on the thing like its a unicycle... just get a unicycle!

[shinomaster]

Ride what feels good. Don't worry how it looks, and certainly don't fret over what people here think about how it should look.

[Sandy]

So let's consider who, thus far, think that there is only one way to properly use a stem- the jerk, swoop, cary ford, jack brunk, saab 2000, and maybe e-RICHIE- What do they have in common? They all (I believe I am correct about cary ford) are accompished riders, do a great deal of riding, have a racing background, are fit, relatively young, have ridden for years, some probably race now, have a substantial saddle to bar drop, are flexible, lean, focused, train, reasonably young,....Do I miss the group by much? But there are other sets of cyclists, simply not like them- perhaps older, less flexible, not as talented, some have orthopedic problems, more oriented to recreational riding, slower, less fit, heavier, use significantly less saddle to bar drop, ride less, don't train as much,..... So does the above group really believe that for these other folks there is on one way a stem should be used? I don't.

Seems genuinely silly to categorically state that a stem should be used one and only one way for all cyclists.Too many individual differences to make that statement in my opinion.

So when the former group reaches 65 or so,will they all be in the same riding position as they are today? Hope that all of them are able to ride then.

A positive rise stem or a negative rise stem is just aesthetics. To say that there is only one way does not make much sense to me. What is the difference in stem useage?... the fact that one is riding is all that really matters...isn't it?

I use a negative rise stem, with spacers, a ht extension, and a 2 degree slope. I really don't care what anyone thinks about it. I prefer a horizontal tt, little ht extension, and fewer spacers. But I had my reasons to do what I did in my bike build.

The rise of a stem is probably one of the least important aspects in cycling and less than no importance in life.


Stem Sandy

[Louis]

neither are mutually exclusive if
a) the bike fits
b) the rider is fit enough


Silly me. Why didn't I think of that?

Thanks Swoop. That solves everything: I'll wave my magic wand, and a) change the geometry of the frame, b) become as Fit as Flux, (hey, that could be a registered trade mark!) and c) while I'm at it, solve world hunger. ;)

[Sandy]

If you 18 or under do what looks cool, if you have already graduated from high school, do what works and move on with you life.

+1000


Sandy

[Sandy]

Ride what feels good. Don't worry how it looks, and certainly don't fret over what people here think about how it should look.

So Smart So Sensible So Super Shino


Sandy

[Ti Designs]

I care about the rider's position about a billion times more than I care about the angle of the stem.

[El Chaba]

Go ahead and flip the stem upward...and get one of those Thomson bent posts....and a Wound Up fork...a SMP Flaccid saddle...a mirror...4-5 ccomputers....a mirror...and a giant bottle...AND a Camelback. You will be stylin'

[e-RICHIE]

I care about the rider's position about a billion times more than I care about the angle of the stem.
we're not talkin' 'bout the caribbeen we're talkin' 'bout the care of the human bein' atmo.

[coloclimber]

There are so many stem angle choices out there almost anyone can get a proper fit with a negative stem.
Thompson, profile etc make a 0 (90degree stem)
Deda makes a Newton in a -4
Everyone and their mom makes a -6
Bontrager makes a -7
Rotor makes -7.5
Deda makes -8
Easton etc make -10
Lots of manufacturers even make -17s
Specialized even makes shims for the same stem to run at a variety of angles.

If aesthetics are important to you it is possible to run a negative stem and have the right drop.

[Fixed]

bro on my work bike( fix mt. bike ) i flipped the stem to make it level
cheers

[flux]

I always felt I couldn't handle the bike as well when at speed with a positive rise stem compared to one with a flat or -deg stem.

Oh, and upwards flipped stems scream "I bought a bike that does'nt fit me."

We have all been guilty of this at one point or another.

In this case the fit is what it is (because of back issue) and you asked "what would look better". Def stem level or down. No brainer really.

Good Luck.

[swoop]

why things get so wounded when a person asks a question, provides two answers and a context, and then has a bunch of dudes answer with absolute confidence....
and then guys get weird about it and start making excuses... about endurance rides and teen angst... is beyond me. i think the guys saying yes prolly do a ton of mileage and aren't insecure. and the guys complainign are left feeling insecure....

stop being so needy and weird and drop the justifying and rationalizing when you don't like answers that you ask for. its foppish.

if you have a bike that fits to begin with and also work hard to make yourself have a basic level of fitness... you shouldn't be on a flipped stem. there's a guy out here that's 79 and his bike fits and host stem is 80 degrees... 46 is young (its not an impact sport).

if something about this bugs you.. look to the question and not the answers.
you know head tubes come in different lengths too and sit ups and stretching your hamstrings isn't such a bad thing nor is a bike that fits.

[timto]

YES to these words!



Ride what feels good. Don't worry how it looks, and certainly don't fret over what people here think about how it should look.


I wish my setup sometimes 'looked' a little more hot. But when you're out riding and barely hanging on to your weekend fun ride, or out enjoying the scenery, your bike styling is likely the last thing on your mind.

[weatherman]

There are so many stem angle choices out there almost anyone can get a proper fit with a negative stem.
Thompson, profile etc make a 0 (90degree stem)
Deda makes a Newton in a -4
Everyone and their mom makes a -6
Bontrager makes a -7
Rotor makes -7.5
Deda makes -8
Easton etc make -10
Lots of manufacturers even make -17s
Specialized even makes shims for the same stem to run at a variety of angles.

If aesthetics are important to you it is possible to run a negative stem and have the right drop.

Good point on the Specialized--if the OP is interested, drop me a line as I have a brand new S-Works adjustable stem I'd be happy to sell (100 mm)--its adjustable in 2 degree increments, anywhere from -16 to +16 degrees I do believe. Nice light stem and I have all the various shims for it, just don't have use for it (came on a bike I purchased this year and was replaced by a Ritchey 4-axis WCS---6 degree, downward sloping with 2.5 cm spacers if anyone is counting...... :) )

Excellent points though folks, really, ride what feels good! :beer:

[sg8357]

If you are worried about style, why are you riding using clunky looking
threadless stems ?

The fashion elite use Nitto Pearl stems, level and 7 shaped just like Cinelli
intended. People with back issues can use Technomic Deluxes, and
still show some taste.

Scott G.
Bike Fashionista

[Sandy]

Please see my post number 29.

Perhaps it is not insecurity versus security or people being weird and needy as you indicate. Justfying and rationalizing to whom? Lots of cyclists just don't care what others think about the look of their bike.


In actualiity I think that those who flip their stems probably care less about that than those who think that flipping their stems is so wrong. Your opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's opinion.



Sandy

[Keith A]

A couple of suggestions for you (one which has been touched on already):
o Go with a 90º (also known as a 0º) stem. For a 110mm length stem, this gives you about 12.5mm more height compared to a -8º stem.
o Use a shorter stem. This will allow you to have your bars lower, but keep your reach the same.

The other issue to consider is with the stem flipped down and thus the greater amount of spacers needed and if you have a fork with a carbon steerer tube, then you are most likely exceeding the recommended amount of spacers for your fork.

Edit: I really like my -6º Ritchey 4-Axis stem.

[saab2000]

So let's consider who, thus far, think that there is only one way to properly use a stem- the jerk, swoop, cary ford, jack brunk, saab 2000, and maybe e-RICHIE- What do they have in common?

So when the former group reaches 65 or so,will they all be in the same riding position as they are today?

I am 41 and far from being a great athlete. But I can sense a balanced bike and too much rise = unbalanced in my experience. Some of the mentioned riders are older than I am and in better shape and ride nicely balanced bikes.

When I am 65 I hope to be retired in Switzerland, married to a beautiful Swiss woman, sipping wine in the evenings overlooking the Alps, eating a great dinner after a long ride on my Record equipped double-chainring no-riser, not upside down stemmed bike with tubular tires. That's what I want. :beer:

[saab2000]

Another solution is to go to a builder who will build you a bike and stem combo that suits your needs anatomically and our (most important opinion! :D) aesthetic needs.

[Sandy]

I am 41 and far from being a great athlete. But I can sense a balanced bike and too much rise = unbalanced in my experience. Some of the mentioned riders are older than I am and in better shape and ride nicely balanced bikes.

When I am 65 I hope to be retired in Switzerland, married to a beautiful Swiss woman, sipping wine in the evenings overlooking the Alps, eating a great dinner after a long ride on my Record equipped double-chainring no-riser, not upside down stemmed bike with tubular tires. That's what I want. :beer:

Hope you get what you want and do it by the time you are 50!


Sandy

[saab2000]

Hope you get what you want and do it by the time you are 50!


Sandy

I've got 9 years to go and will have to win the lottery for that one. Saving the best way I know how to into my 401K, but when the savings is measured in 5 digits to the left of the decimal instead of 7, the Swiss Alp retirement thing by 50 seems unlikely.

Here's to hoping! :beer:

[Sandy]

Move the decimal point. If you wait until you are 65 to get that beautiful swiss woman, you might not even remember why you married her. If you are 65 and she is 20, you probably would wish that you were 41 again. :)


Sandy

[saab2000]

Move the decimal point. If you wait until you are 65 to get that beautiful swiss woman, you might not even remember why you married her. If you are 65 and she is 20, you probably would wish that you were 41 again. :)


Sandy

American women don't really get me. I have met one or two who do, but it hasn't 'clicked'. Trying to move the decimal point, but the value of the dollar is going to move it in the wrong direction........

Finding Mrs. S2K hasn't been as easy as it is thought to be! :rolleyes: Oh well, 007 was a bachelor too. :D

[RPS]

I always felt I couldn't handle the bike as well when at speed with a positive rise stem compared to one with a flat or -deg stem.As you mention later in your post, it's an existing bike; so it won't make a difference if he uses more or less spacers to end up in the same place. Comes down to appearance; and perhaps a little difference in overall stiffness and strength.

[RPS]

if you have a bike that fits to begin with and also work hard to make yourself have a basic level of fitness... you shouldn't be on a flipped stem. there's a guy out here that's 79 and his bike fits and host stem is 80 degrees... 46 is young (its not an impact sport).I'm going to play devil's advocate and ask you to make a reasonable case for this statement that doesn't involve aesthetics; or the appearance of the bike. Explain (other than appearance) why a bike can't or shouldn't ever be designed with the stem up rather than down.

Do you really think that using more spacers, a longer head tube extension, or a sloped top tube to make the top of the head tube higher changes the "fit" compared to turning the stem up? Seriously, how does the orientation of the stem change function, or the system's dynamics?

[RPS]

I am 41 and far from being a great athlete. But I can sense a balanced bike and too much rise = unbalanced in my experience.saab, that may be but how you get to that "too much rise" doesn't make much difference, does it?

What's important is where the bars are relative to the steering axis and the height of the bars, which affects center of gravity. To go up with spacers and then turn down with stem is not much different than going more directly between two points by turning the stem over. Turning the stem over makes the system incrementally stiffer and lighter.

The same applies to HT extensions, sloping top tubes, etc. What counts most -- other than appearance -- is where you end up, not how you got there.

[RPS]

Ride what feels good. Don't worry how it looks, and certainly don't fret over what people here think about how it should look.Smart man.

[cadence231]

down.

[swoop]

er.

The same applies to HT extensions, sloping top tubes, etc. What counts most -- other than appearance -- is where you end up, not how you got there.


i think the how you got there is just as important. the aesthetic experience is part of the gestalt and very much the poetry in the language.

but that bit that spinelli wrote is true too.

and yeah, floyd's bike from the tdf he did on the patch has a flipped stem and its hideous. same with creeds from gp san francisco.

its the guys that ride disconnected from the gesalt that just give me the ugly american tourist vibe. it offends my delicate senses!

heck, stevep is 1000 years old and has the core strength to sit on a bike the correct way. his back is effed up from building the pyramids and he still respects the bike enough to have the fitness to ride with panache instead of looking like night of the living dead after raiding the performance catalogue.

[Dustin]

If you are worried about aesthetics, why not get a builder to make a nice custom threadless stem that provides some rise, but maintains a more classic appearance at the same time, like the following:

[ecl2k]

up or down? neither, I keep it cocked to the right like a true player
http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/98/87/22668798.jpg

keeps me going in the right direction all the time

[flux]

Lots of cyclists just don't care what others think about the look of their bike.



Sandy

huh. to me it's not about what others think about the look of my bike but what I think about the look of my bike.

[swoop]

huh. to me it's not about what others thinK about the look of my bike but what I think about the look of my bike.

make it a sticky!

[davids]

Related thread drift:

If all these guys with rubber spines want to tell me how to best train my 46 yr old body to get my lower back to allow me to ride with more saddle-bar drop I'm all ears.

I think there are lots of other folks out there who would also be interested in hearing this.

LouisStretch.

[flux]

make it a sticky!

do it now. i fixed from "thing" to "think".

rode too hard today to post well first time around.

[flux]

Stretch.

+1

you should at least be able to bend over and touch your toes w/ legs straight.

(i can feel the jokes coming)

[Louis]

Stretch.

Care to expand on that?

[Louis]

you should at least be able to bend over and touch your toes w/ legs straight.

Not a problem for me. I can't lay my palms flat on the ground, but can get all fingers on the ground.

[swoop]

seriously.. being a cyclist and being a bike rider are two different things with only having a bike in common.
cycling takes skill, commitment, dedication, and time. you have to respect the bike and have the basic physical capacity to ride it correctly.

anyone can ride a bike.

[RPS]

i think the how you got there is just as important. the aesthetic experience is part of the gestalt and very much the poetry in the language.

but that bit that spinelli wrote is true too.

and yeah, floyd's bike from the tdf he did on the patch has a flipped stem and its hideous. same with creeds from gp san francisco.

its the guys that ride disconnected from the gesalt that just give me the ugly american tourist vibe. it offends my delicate senses!

heck, stevep is 1000 years old and has the core strength to sit on a bike the correct way. his back is effed up from building the pyramids and he still respects the bike enough to have the fitness to ride with panache instead of looking like night of the living dead after raiding the performance catalogue.Sounds like your objections still come down to appearance, which is entirely subjective. And I can respect that you don't like the way a stem turned up looks, but please don't come across as that being the "right" way.

Functionally, I say it's dumb to go up to then go down. Why not connect the two dots with a straight line?

[swoop]

Sounds like your objections still come down to appearance, which is entirely subjective. And I can respect that you don't like the way a stem turned up looks, but please don't come across as that being the "right" way.

Functionally, I say it's dumb to go up to then go down. Why not connect the two dots with a straight line?


the op asked a question... the answer related to that question.

[flux]

Not a problem for me. I can't lay my palms flat on the ground, but can get all fingers on the ground.

cool. then why do you have to jack up your front end so much? Do you have a pic of your bike? Is it a "custom" rig?

just trying to help. some guys/gals gradually drop down taking a spacer out a week or every ten our so hours of riding. might want to try that. you may be surprised at how low you can get if you do it gradually.

[RPS]

seriously.. being a cyclist and being a bike rider are two different things with only having a bike in common.
cycling takes skill, commitment, dedication, and time. you have to respect the bike and have the basic physical capacity to ride it correctly.

anyone can ride a bike.I would call you a snob, but I think you'd take it as a compliment. ;)

[swoop]

I would call you a snob, but I think you'd take it as a compliment. ;)
BINGO BABYCAKES!!!!!!
i am a huge bike snob!!!!!!!!
(but not humorless about it)!!!!!!

[davids]

+1

you should at least be able to bend over and touch your toes w/ legs straight.

(i can feel the jokes coming)I'm 47 now, and I have to work on keeping limber. But because I do, I can easily place my palms on the ground. I'm not saying this to brag - just to reinforce that mid-40s ain't particularly old.

Independent of the aesthetic question (stems look better down) - A properly set up racing bike has drop. The bike handles better with the rider's weight distributed off the saddle.

p.s. All of my road bikes have the same drop, within a few millimeters. One of the bikes has a positive rise stem. It doesn't look as good as the other two.

[swoop]

I'm 47 now, and I have to work on keeping limber. But because I do, I can easily place my palms on the ground. I'm not saying this to brag - just to reinforce that mid-40s ain't particularly old.

Independent of the aesthetic question (stems look better down) - A properly set up racing bike has drop. The bike handles better with the rider's weight distributed off the saddle.

p.s. All of my road bikes have the same drop, within a few millimeters. One of the bikes has a positive rise stem. It doesn't look as good as the other two.


we don't call it 47.. its half a pucci.

[Louis]

Functionally, I say it's dumb to go up to then go down. Why not connect the two dots with a straight line?

Functionally I agree 100% - a straight line is more efficient.

IMO aesthetically, the lines flow better if the TT is as close to parallel with the stem as possible.

Form vs Function - compromise as best possible given the constraints.

[Fixed]

......

Finding Mrs. S2K hasn't been as easy as it is thought to be! :rolleyes: Oh well, 007 was a bachelor too. :D
bro think how all those woman would feel in all those cities around the world if 007 got married .......but .maybe you'll find miss 008
cheers

[Louis]

some guys/gals gradually drop down taking a spacer out a week or every ten our so hours of riding. might want to try that. you may be surprised at how low you can get if you do it gradually.

I'm working on that on a bike with a quill stem, which of course makes it very easy to do. I wanted to get a few months in before I started to go down. Once I've reached my back's limit I'll use that info to decide where to cut the steerer tube.

[Fixed]

bro dropping the bar does not make my back hurt raising the saddle does
imho
cheers

[RPS]

This thread reminds me of a balding guy who tries to disguise his appearance with a combover.

Who are we kidding here? If a rider needs the bars up for whatever reason, just admit it and don’t try to hide it. Everyone sees right through it anyway.

There should be a point where function dictates a new “revised” traditional look. Besides, practically all stem manufacturers duplicate the direction of their logos, and they didn’t do that for just a few.

[RPS]

Functionally I agree 100% - a straight line is more efficient.

IMO aesthetically, the lines flow better if the TT is as close to parallel with the stem as possible.

Form vs Function - compromise as best possible given the constraints.+1

However, if you can't match very closely, it might as well be quite different. To me that looks better.

[shinomaster]

huh. to me it's not about what others think about the look of my bike but what I think about the look of my bike.

I agree. I like how my Cannondale looks with the stem flat with one spacer. I've been riding it this way for a few weeks and the bike actually handles better and looks better to me. Unfortunatly I think it's just too low as it hurts my neck and I have pain between my shoulders. I'll probably flip it back over and make it erect looking soon.

[Wiley J]

Here's a question for bike designers. Does a bike with a taller headtube and negative rise stem handle different than a bike with a shorter headtube and positive rise stem? All dimensions other than headtube being the same, and riders position is identical. I know which one I think looks better, I want to know if you could feel a difference.

[davids]

Care to expand on that?No.

I believe you should be able to take it from here. Good luck!

[RocketDog]

Here's a question for bike designers. Does a bike with a taller headtube and negative rise stem handle different than a bike with a shorter headtube and positive rise stem? All dimensions other than headtube being the same, and riders position is identical. I know which one I think looks better, I want to know if you could feel a difference.

No, and that is why the length and vigor of this thread is unwarranted.

[swoop]

No, and that is why the length and vigor of this thread is unwarranted.


too perfect.
i think it was a binary answer that the op was wanting... what's the tally?


cabal=down
guys with robust sense of self= do what makes you happy
bike riders= up up up.

[Sandy]

Here's a question for bike designers. Does a bike with a taller headtube and negative rise stem handle different than a bike with a shorter headtube and positive rise stem? All dimensions other than headtube being the same, and riders position is identical. I know which one I think looks better, I want to know if you could feel a difference.

Post of the thread.

Post of the month, thus far.




Sandy

[avalonracing]

Here's a question for bike designers. Does a bike with a taller headtube and negative rise stem handle different than a bike with a shorter headtube and positive rise stem? All dimensions other than headtube being the same, and riders position is identical. I know which one I think looks better, I want to know if you could feel a difference.

I agree. I want to know too. And I want to know NOW! Someone please PM the builders and ask them to notice the above post.

(Seriously, I do want to know and I don't know if they go through 6 pages of nonsense to see this).

[swoop]

no.

given that the head tube is long enough to not require an unsafe amount of spacers or short enough that the stem allows you to same hand position there is no functional difference in an average sized bike.

on a custom bike for an average person, there is an opportunity to design in a reasonable fit, and workable amount of spacers to allow the rider to use a stem in an aesthetically pleasing way.

[RPS]

Here's a question for bike designers. Does a bike with a taller headtube and negative rise stem handle different than a bike with a shorter headtube and positive rise stem? All dimensions other than headtube being the same, and riders position is identical. I know which one I think looks better, I want to know if you could feel a difference.An engineering answer:

In practical terms no; particularly if viewed strictly from a kinematics standpoint.

In theory the bike with the longer head tube, longer fork steerer, and longer stem will ride “incrementally” softer because of additional flex, and hence may “feel” different. The longer HT, steerer, and stem will theoretically also make the front “incrementally” more flexible both in bending and torsion, so handling will not be as precise (in theory).

Bottom line is that from a functional standpoint you’ll never see the difference, but if you could, the stem pointed up would win almost every time. I can think of a couple of rare exceptions which I won’t get into.

[shinomaster]

With the stem flipped up if feels more flexy. Why?

[RPS]

With the stem flipped up if feels more flexy. Why?Because it is.

But that's not what has been discussed here -- at least not by me (or so I hope). You are comparing a different set of conditions.

[RPS]

We may not see manufacturers showing off their single bikes with stems turned up, but for tandems it’s not uncommon. IMO it’s mostly a matter of getting used to it.

[swoop]

floyd's real travesty.

[swoop]

and then creed's moment of darkness.

[jerk]

it looks good here. but almost no where else.

jerk

[shinomaster]

it looks good here. but almost no where else.

jerk


He looks like a grownup riding a BMX.

[Ahneida Ride]

Go ahead and flip the stem upward...and get one of those Thomson bent posts....and a Wound Up fork...a SMP Flaccid saddle...a mirror...4-5 ccomputers....a mirror...and a giant bottle...AND a Camelback. You will be stylin'

I got streamers too !!!! :p


http://www.mailorder2000.co.uk/prodimages/AB3706-L.jpg

[Dave]

I didn't bother to read through many pages of responses, but keep in mind that the stem becomes one size shorter (horizontally) when it's flipped. although sliding it down the steering tube 30mm increases the reach about the same amount. For a 110mm stem the height difference should be about 30mm.

Why not consider some other angle, like an 84 or 86?

There is some room to cut down an Alpha-Q. You need a 125mm support tube to permit pushing the star nut down further if necessary. If the support tube is not long enough, you should not use 35mm of spacer. The end of the support tube should extend just below the bottom of the upper headset bearing, at the minimum.

[flux]

and then creed's moment of darkness.

I think mike was having back problems that year. he has always had a shortish position though... awesome racer.

[swoop]

I think mike was having back problems that year. he has always had a shortish position though... awesome racer.


yeah.. i think he rocks in every way. he's back was wrecked that year ... and then he fell into the hole at vaughtersville with injuries too.

i think he's gorgeous on a bike and insanely powerful. maximum respect. vague straight man crush.

weird.

[Wiley J]

I think anything to an extreme is what bugs me. + 6 stem looks OK, not +17. Two or three cm of spacers OK, not four or five.

[fierte_poser]

Rider A has 0 saddle to bar drop but can ride in the drops all day long.

Cyclist B has 6cm saddle to bar drop but only rides on the tops/hoods.

Who has the bigger gestalt? :rolleyes:

[Fixed]

Rider A has 0 saddle to bar drop but can ride in the drops all day long.

Cyclist B has 6cm saddle to bar drop but only rides on the tops/hoods.

Who has the bigger gestalt? :rolleyes:
bro i know i am dumb but why would you want to ride in the drops all day long ?
cheers :beer:

[fierte_poser]

bro i know i am dumb but why would you want to ride in the drops all day long ?
cheers :beer:

Oh...I was just trying to make a pithy commentary on the whole rider vs. cyclist thing that happened in this thread. Clearly didn't work. :beer:

[Fivethumbs]

bro i know i am dumb but why would you want to ride in the drops all day long ?
cheers :beer:


Well how else are you going to apply the brakes?

[swoop]

Rider A has 0 saddle to bar drop but can ride in the drops all day long.

Cyclist B has 6cm saddle to bar drop but only rides on the tops/hoods.

Who has the bigger gestalt? :rolleyes:


um... yuh. drop isn't a penis.

[shinomaster]

Think I need a Synapse, or a Giant ocr.

[soulspinner]

No, and that is why the length and vigor of this thread is unwarranted.


Ding Ding we got a winner. I got two bikes with 26 mm diff in headtube and 12 mm worth of bb diff. One has 6mm of spacers and a 10 degree the RIGHT way the other has a 90 degree and 30 or so mm of spacers. They both work, although I dont like the aesthetic of the smaller one. Just ride it.

[Fat Robert]

that's why i love the deda murex stem

bars too low? back sore? beat it with a hammer and its good for 2cm of rise

gonna roll with the cabal? beat it back down

its special micro-alloyed cold forging technology allows for infinte adjustment up, down, left, right, and combinations thereof -- especially while sprinting or climbing out of the saddle

[coloclimber]

Last year, I was on a ride when I saw a decent looking rider ahead. I was looking forward to some respite from the wind. I hammered up to him and saw he was riding a nice Moots titanium frame. I started talking to him but when I looked over, I saw he had a 60mm 25degree rider stem! There was no way I was going to tow his ghetto @$$ back to Boulder. I attacked him on the flats and never looked back.
:bike:

For those that are also repulsed by such a thing, you too can convert one upturned stem follower at a time- just dont ride with them.

[Chad Engle]

heck, stevep is 1000 years old and has the core strength to sit on a bike the correct way. his back is effed up from building the pyramids and he still respects the bike enough to have the fitness to ride with panache instead of looking like night of the living dead after raiding the performance catalogue.


POTD.

[jerk]

He looks like a grownup riding a BMX.

no he doesn't.

jerk

[El Chaba]

Last year, I was on a ride when I saw a decent looking rider ahead. I was looking forward to some respite from the wind. I hammered up to him and saw he was riding a nice Moots titanium frame. I started talking to him but when I looked over, I saw he had a 60mm 25degree rider stem! There was no way I was going to tow his ghetto @$$ back to Boulder. I attacked him on the flats and never looked back.
:bike:

For those that are also repulsed by such a thing, you too can convert one upturned stem follower at a time- just dont ride with them.


Yours is an example for others to follow...congratulations!

[harlond]

floyd's real travesty.


you should at least be able to bend over and touch your toes w/ legs straight.

Easy for those without osteoarthritis of the hip to say.

[bozman]

on a custom bike for an average person, there is an opportunity to design in a reasonable fit, and workable amount of spacers to allow the rider to use a stem in an aesthetically pleasing way.

When I went to visit Carl Strong for my fitting two years ago I was riding a stock Lemond Reno in the largest size (I believe that was a 61.) My back and shoulders would hurt on longer rides so I wanted a bike that fit.

The frame Carl came up with had a shorter tt, a 24cm ht (I am 6'4",) and called for a +10 degree stem with 1cm of spacer. Once built the bike felt great but that stem made the front end look enormous.

This year I decided to flip the stem. WHOA. The bike not only looks better but it FEELS better, like I am more evenly balanced and correctly connected. I have to believe that the design was incorporated to allow for a stem flip once I started logging the miles and developed flexibility, atmo.

[swoop]

Easy for those without osteoarthritis of the hip to say.

yes, its not a perfect world. but we are talking about ideals and aesthetics.
my friend's son sits on a seat he had calfee make him to go over the front wheel for his m.s. being so debilitating.
one one hand its not a pretty bike, on the other hand its one of the most beautiful bikes i've ever seen.

[stevep]

it looks good here. but almost no where else.

jerk

hey, those jerseys are on sale from nashbar!

[stevep]

meanwhile here on earth...his look is screaming at him in not so dulcet tones and he's in yellow knife, yukon while his bike is sitting in memphis


I am 41 and far from being a great athlete. But I can sense a balanced bike and too much rise = unbalanced in my experience. Some of the mentioned riders are older than I am and in better shape and ride nicely balanced bikes.

When I am 65 I hope to be retired in Switzerland, married to a beautiful Swiss woman, sipping wine in the evenings overlooking the Alps, eating a great dinner after a long ride on my Record equipped double-chainring no-riser, not upside down stemmed bike with tubular tires. That's what I want. :beer:

[flux]

Easy for those without osteoarthritis of the hip to say.

harlond,

sorry you have osteoarthritis of the hip. that must be hard to live with much less ride a bike with.

good luck.

[stevep]

heck, stevep is 1000 years old and has the core strength to sit on a bike the correct way. his back is effed up from building the pyramids and he still respects the bike enough to have the fitness to ride with panache instead of looking like night of the living dead after raiding the performance catalogue.

truthfully, on the pyramids, even then there were synthetics that would have saved a lot of money and time...
the pyramids could have been built in 2 weeks and been light enough to move around... none of the egyptian overseers had heard of plastic at the time.
was revolutionary.
stone? stupid really.

[swoop]

truthfully, on the pyramids, even then there were synthetics that would have saved a lot of money and time...
the pyramids could have been built in 2 weeks and been light enough to move around... none of the egyptian overseers had heard of plastic at the time.
was revolutionary.
stone? stupid really.


hey bc over there, you were always ahead of your time. even before the concept of time when they were teasing you for wearing a watch.

[stevep]

hey bc over there, you were always ahead of your time. even before the concept of time when they were teasing you for wearing a watch.

it was a russian military watch..kept lousy time...
2,000 bc...they used a 24 hr clock then...
kept coming out ad...
chucked it in one of the tombs...
wait until they find that.
s