group ride Public Service Announcement

[Karin Kirk]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of working as a coach at a clinic for aspiring women road racers. It was a great day with loads of enthusiasm and learning, paired with plenty of mp stuff like ill-fitting bikes, the tiniest stem I have ever seen (maybe 30 or 40 mm? and pointing straight up), crashes in the parking lot, and chainring grease all around. But ya know, I find the pure unpretentiousness of events like this to be highly refreshing. These women are not afraid of being vulnerable or doing the wrong thing, and they paid good money to put themselves way out of their comfort zone. There are no posers, no Rapha and nary a carbon wheel in sight. Awesome.

But I digress. There seems to be a new hand signal that is taking hold, at least around here, which is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. The signal is meant to indicate slowing or stopping, and it's done by placing one hand behind the small of your back. Has anyone else seen this, or is this just a Montana thing?

Even one of the other coaches mentioned this as a recommended hand signal, to which I had to interrupt and point out that when a bike is slowing down it's at its most unstable, so why would you do this with one hand behind your back? Despite that, when we were out on the road and heading toward a scary-looking set of RR tracks, every single person in my group took one hand off the bars to make that hand signal, or some other such "helpful" signal to warn each other. This was only moments after I instructed the whole group to pay attention to the tracks, so, we all already knew they were there - yet the instinct to signal anyway was insuppressible.

I think women in general want to be generous and helpful so maybe this issue is unique to them. I congratulated my group on their generosity, then scolded them for taking their hands off the bars at the most dangerous time. But I see this behavior a lot. If it's in a group ride I'm leading, I can correct it, but otherwise I don't want to be overly bossy.

So, my take-home message: Riding a bike may be easy, but please don't ride with one hand behind your back. Hand signals are great, but not at the expense of not being able to ride in a straight line. Take care of yourself first, and that is the number one most helpful thing you can do in a group.

Oh, and those of you with time and experience to share - hooking up with a clinic like this is a really fun and rewarding thing to do. I highly recommend it! :)

thanks for reading :banana:

[csm]

I've seen that on group rides in PA also. I agree that it seems a bit dangerous, especially when it's used at a stop sign, intersection, traffic light, etc. I mean, of course you'll be slowing and stopping.

[Skrawny]

That exact hand signal is being taught by many of the "ride-leaders" of the people who are training for the AIDS Lifecycle ride, and since there are many who do that ride in my area, a lot are doing it.

I have mixed feelings about this group.
On one hand they are doing a great thing, they are new to the sport, and they are people who otherwise would be trying to run me down in SUVs
On the other hand, they are all newbies (including the "ride-leaders"), not used to riding in groups, and they ride in big packs that are difficult to pass.

They have obviously been carefully taught about ride etiquette, but they take it a little too far. If you pass them without saying "on your left" they will frequently yell at you, no matter how far on their left you are. And, as for the hand signals, they point out so many things that they almost crash. I have seen one try to point out every one of those reflector thingies that divide lanes…

To be fair, I am generalizing. Also, they are trying to do the right things. I just wish they wouldn't yell at me when I safely pass them widely to their left without warning them...

[Bruce K]

Lots of folks around here seem to use that signal.

I guess the thinking is that putting your hand out and down as a stop signal looks alot like you are pointing out debris or a hole so tucking it up higher makes a clear distinction.

I personally prefer calling out "Stopping" and keeping both hands on the brakes.

BK

[rePhil]

I have seen that and don't think it's a good idea.
The people I ride with will just open their fingers, generally indicating pulling off,or that they are slowing / stopping pedaling.
If it's urgent someone will say slowing, stopping ,etc.

[Der_Kruscher]

Everybody has to start somewhere. The thing that I love about the Aids Lifecycle ride, aside from the fact that it generates boatloads of cash for research, is that it turns a lot of people into cyclists. I work at a biggish shop that partners with ALC so we get a ton of new riders in. I love working with them; they're excited and nervous about about the ride and they're looking for direction. It's a great feeling getting some of these folks started on what may turn into a lifelong persuit (not to overstate my role). Yeah, some of them get a little overzealous out on their bikes and a lot of them have shaky handling skills but they'll learn all that in time. I can certainly remember some stupid stuff that I did when I first started cycling...

That exact hand signal is being taught by many of the "ride-leaders" of the people who are training for the AIDS Lifecycle ride, and since there are many who do that ride in my area, a lot are doing it.

I have mixed feelings about this group.
On one hand they are doing a great thing, they are new to the sport, and they are people who otherwise would be trying to run me down in SUVs
On the other hand, they are all newbies (including the "ride-leaders"), not used to riding in groups, and they ride in big packs that are difficult to pass.

They have obviously been carefully taught about ride etiquette, but they take it a little too far. If you pass them without saying "on your left" they will frequently yell at you, no matter how far on their left you are. And, as for the hand signals, they point out so many things that they almost crash. I have seen one try to point out every one of those reflector thingies that divide lanes…

To be fair, I am generalizing. Also, they are trying to do the right things. I just wish they wouldn't yell at me when I safely pass them widely to their left without warning them...

[Smiley]

Yes, Ms Kirk, we see that signal here too :)

[Tom Byrnes]

And it's a L.A. thing, also.

[92degrees]

I see more people doing that than not around here.

[a100mark]

And a NC thing....

[Bill Bove]

i just started seeing it myself.

Karin, "no rapha, no posers" Hmmmm :confused:

[mikki]

Yep, it's an Orange County, Ca. thing too.

If we had such clinics out this way for women I would be all over it. Do you know of any out here Karin?

[mike p]

Upstate NY, never seen it.

Mike

[woolly]

Seen that here in DFW too. Not sure why folks reach all the way to the small of their back - an open palm flashed down by your side communicates the same thing and keeps the hands closer to the bars. Not saying I advocate either, just questioning the mechanics of this practice that is apparently gaining popularity.

On a related note, I hooked up briefly with one of the local group rides this morning while I was out by myself. Observed a rider twist their arm behind them, hand up between shoulder blades (some type of stretching, I guess). This triggered another, presumably inexperienced rider to loudly shout out SLOWWWWINGGG, which pretty much spooked the rest of the pack down to about 5mph very quickly, wondering just what the heck was going on. I thankfully took my planned route turn about a half mile on down the road, and peacefully went on my way - solo. Beautiful day for bike here in Big D today.

[swoop]

the more skilled the riders.. the smaller the signals.

and the less skilled, the more the signals look like flailing around and seem more dangerous than the thing being signaled for.

i avoid rides that need more than a flick of the finger... and would have been like kirk on this one and just tell whomever pulling the group to ride it like a fully loaded truck instead of a mime concert.

[woolly]

just tell whomever pulling the group to ride it like a fully loaded truck instead of a mime concert.

Well thanks. Thanks a F'ing lot. My nose now burns from the DietCoke I just shot threw it. And my keyboard is a complete mess.

You nailed it though. It's funny b/c it's 1000% true.

:D :D :D

:beer:

[J.Greene]

The big I'm pulling off "ass slap" kills me.

JG

[Kevan]

a hand simply being held out that could be confused with pointing out road debris.

I've seen it used, but I prefer just sticking a hand out, fingers spread and sometimes shouting out over my shoulder, "STOPPING!!!" or "SLOWING!!!"

[Crazy Chris]

Karin, don't you mean 3 or 4 cm stem length? I prefer the hand signal that has the palm facing backward a few inches from the left seat stay. But what do I know. I don't like the right turn signal using the right arm extended. What if someone is pointing out an elk or an eagle?

[Karin Kirk]

Karin, don't you mean 3 or 4 cm stem length?

whoops, yes, I fixed it.

[Karin Kirk]

Karin, "no rapha, no posers" Hmmmm :confused:

Nothing against Rapha. I just meant that it was a non-fancy group. Kinda nice!

And I'm with y'all that small, simple hand signals are the ticket. And verbal warnings are nice, because it keeps you riding straight. And if you are paying attention many of the signals are unnecessary. Probably teaching people to pay attention to the flow of the group and what's happening 10 bikes in front of them is much more helpful then teaching them how to make hand signals.

[J.Greene]

Probably teaching people to pay attention to the flow of the group and what's happening 10 bikes in front of them is much more helpful then teaching them how to make hand signals.

It's the best part of running a team. When we get all the juniors together riding a paceline nobody needs to yell, wave hands or ass smack. I hope that doesn't come off snobby. All riders can strive to be more aware and improve their skills.

JG

[musgravecycles]

Yeah, that signal sucks, they use it in SW Michigan too...

[shoe]

i use the behind the back signal only when a friend is behind me and then i gesture by closing my hand and then slowly releasing my middle finger...usually is meant to let them know that i think that i am better then them...or if they beat me in a sprint earlier might be used to represent my feelings on that.. i never do it when i am wearing rapha gear though...carry on....dave

[swoop]

i find my assss emanates a protective orb around three rows of whomever is behind me. from space it looks like a giant glowing unicorn, but within that orb its just a feeling of riding in _____ (help me, i was going to reference the sex machine from Sleeper, what was it.. The Orgasmatron?).

nothing bad happens there.


people love signaling... signaling yeah, but pulling the group away from obstacles before they're obstacles, not so much. one of life's mysteries at work.

[J.Greene]

i find my assss emanates a protective orb around three rows of whomever is behind me. from space it looks like a giant glowing unicorn, but within that orb its just a feeling of riding in _____ (help me, i was going to reference the sex machine from Sleeper, what was it.. The Orgasmatron?).
nothing bad happens there.
people love signaling... signaling yeah, but pulling the group away from obstacles before they're obstacles, not so much. one of life's mysteries at work.

Like this?

[swoop]

Like this?

frightfully close.
looks like he's about to crap and elephant. been there for sure.

[Fixed]

The big I'm pulling off "ass slap" kills me.

JG
bro that is the tri gang stuff
i thought i was supposed to do that also you should have seen the look on that cat when i slapped his ass to move the hell over
cheers :beer:

[Too Tall]

You go to heaven twice for hosting that group Mrs. well done.
As for the wierd hand signals??? Heck if I know, people have all sorts of playbooks they use when new to the sport. You can blame the charity rides for most of this...hey I had to blame someone right?

[J.Greene]

bro that is the tri gang stuff
i thought i was supposed to do that also you should have seen the look on that cat when i slapped his ass to move the hell over
cheers :beer:


dude that is so classic.

JG

[benb]

Tell them to make the hand signal as the law requires.. imagine that.

[Sandy]

a hand simply being held out that could be confused with pointing out road debris.

I've seen it used, but I prefer just sticking a hand out, fingers spread and sometimes shouting out over my shoulder, "STOPPING!!!" or "SLOWING!!!"

At your normal speed, "SLOWING" and "STOPPING" mean the same thing anyway. ;) :)

SPEEDING SANDY

[Skrawny]

Everybody has to start somewhere. The thing that I love about the Aids Lifecycle ride, aside from the fact that it generates boatloads of cash for research, is that it turns a lot of people into cyclists. I work at a biggish shop that partners with ALC so we get a ton of new riders in. I love working with them; they're excited and nervous about about the ride and they're looking for direction. It's a great feeling getting some of these folks started on what may turn into a lifelong persuit (not to overstate my role). Yeah, some of them get a little overzealous out on their bikes and a lot of them have shaky handling skills but they'll learn all that in time. I can certainly remember some stupid stuff that I did when I first started cycling...


I know, there is nothing wrong with the group itself, I agree it does great things; and you are right, we were all newbies once & did dumb things. This just places all of the newbies in one large, occasionally self-righteous, group.

[Tom]

Another in the myriad reasons why I really prefer to ride alone.

On the rare occasions I wind up in a group I restrict myself to one non-verbal signal, the proverbial elbow flick to indicate I'm dropping off.

The rest of the time I say as little as possible.

[William]

New one on me. Can’t say that I’ve seen it here, and none of the folks I rode with in Oregon ever did that signal. No hand signals….it was just Eff this, and Eff that. It was Effin effective most of the effin time. The only effin signal I remember was when there was an effin dead possum, deer, or grizzly bear in the effin road. Just a quick point on the side the carcass was coming up on and the paceline whizzed right by.



William ;)


Refrence material for everyday ordinary citizens:


http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/regulation/part26/BCROHS19A.GIF

[Ginger]

Yeah, I've seen that on rides in Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois. Don't know where it comes from but it's plain stupid.

Nevermind that the hand behind the back signal keeps the signal within the body of the cyclist, therefore not visible to anyone further than 10' away, totally useless for other vehicular traffic (like cars) because it's not a legal signal?

I can never tell if they're signaling stopping or trying to adjust their bra strap, so I just go around at full speed.

Yeah...they yell at me.

[Sasha18]

I went to my first track class yesterday and riding in a paceline, someone put their hand out to indicate "slowing"... on a fixed gear... into a corner. It was ridiculous.

When I see the crowd slowing, I've always just stopped pedaling or sat up to indicate a change in speed. On one of my first group rides in a line, a very senior rider scolded me for coasting in the line. "When you're not pedaling, it means you're slowing." Good advice.

[cadence231]

Yeah, I've seen that on rides in Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois. Don't know where it comes from but it's plain stupid.

Nevermind that the hand behind the back signal keeps the signal within the body of the cyclist, therefore not visible to anyone further than 10' away, totally useless for other vehicular traffic (like cars) because it's not a legal signal?

I can never tell if they're signaling stopping or trying to adjust their bra strap, so I just go around at full speed.

Yeah...they yell at me.


Ha ha.
Ya. Can you imagine a paceline of them slapping their asses then hand signaling one by one as the "signal" is passed down the line! What I wouldn't give to be a roadside weed to witness that cacophany!!

[ericspin]

I really dislike all the signalling also. I am with several folks here in that I prefer to ride alone or with a few of my best buddy riding partners. When we are riding in a paceline I'm always looking over the shoulder of the person in front of me so that I can anticipate things a little earlier. We all pretty much know what each other is doing anyway. It's too bad that I am so judgemental and impatient with others. Karin, I'm with you in that if I am approaching a hazard or a stopping point IO really want ALL TWO of my hands on the bar.

[Ti Designs]

I went to my first track class yesterday and riding in a paceline, someone put their hand out to indicate "slowing"... on a fixed gear... into a corner. It was ridiculous.


There's a big difference between a slowing signal and a hand sling...

[Ginger]

What I think is particularly odd about any "slowing" hand signal most riders use is that they use it well after the fact rather than before...so the fact they're slowing is pretty dang obvious to anyone behind them.
It's like they're talking to themselves.

[swoop]

like all things, there's a right time and place....

so lets not get you all accustomed to no hand signals for fear of taking your hands off the bar.. (remember down tube shifters?).
use your common sense, don't be a spaz, only ride rides where the folks pulling have the right to be up there, and ride with all your senses and no mirrors because you're dangerous and don't know it).
you don't have to yell to communicate, nor does every person have to signal
but there does need to be communication (with regards to the unexpected) on rides.

and your best bet to learn the ropes is to ride with experienced cyclists.

a group ride should never be school for deaf cheerleaders. at the same time, if i'm on front and its single file and we going thirty and there's something emerging on front of us, i'm going to wave you off before i change the pace, and i'd want the same from you). i'm also going to touch my hip once if a door is opening on a parked car.

[Ginger]

My theory is this whole behind the back thing started after Sand Volleyball made it's impression on other sports. The whole behind the back signaling thing, and "block" and "slowing" have a similar signal.

[swoop]

My theory is this whole behind the back thing started after Sand Volleyball made it's impression on other sports. The whole behind the back signaling thing, and "block" and "slowing" have a similar signal.


i could write a book on hand signals on the bike for how they're used out here.. the left hand on the small of the back with the palm out for two seconds is stopping.
the left hand (or right, which ever is the middle line when you're two-up) the palm parallel to the ground and motioned like dribbling a basketball for a second is slowing.

the right hand smacking your own hip twice is fade to the left for unseen obstacle on the right.

etc... there's literally a whole language to denote size and shape of whatever's ahead. like a war movie... kinda cute stuff. nothing worse than riding behind a dude that signals everything... oy. its like riding with someone who talks too much.

like i said before, the better the group the less is signaled because it doesn't need to be cuz there's sort of one mind and you just follow the wheel in front of you.

[Skrawny]

the right hand smacking your own hip twice is fade to the left for unseen obstacle on the right.

LOL!
In my group it means there is a good looking girl ahead on that side!

-s

[I Want Sachs?]

How do you read the signal from the guy in front of you? I keep on getting dropped, and I can bearly see the guy in front of me.

[Elefantino]

Riders here in NE Fla use that almost exclusively. At first I thought it was some sort of strange initiation sign. Ass slaps have promulgated, too. I do neither. For stopping, I prefer holding up a fist (if I'm pulling a long paceline), extending my fingers, or yelling.

Other stuff:


Palm down: Bad road
Right elbow flick: I'm pulling off the paceline
Head up: There's something in the air
Head down: I'm looking to see if I have any more gears
Finger down: Pointing out something in the road
Finger up: Eff off

[thejen12]

Those hand signals have been in use here in Silicon Valley since I started riding here in the 90's. Hand across your lower back for slowing, arm out with elbow bent, palm facing behind you and fingers pointing down for stopping. If I'm riding in a large group, I'll just call out "SLOWING" or "STOPPING", because it alerts more people than the hand signals do. If I'm riding along on my own and there are other riders around (but not in a bunch), I'll use the hand signals, but not call out.

By the way, there is one for RR tracks, too - it's like the stopping hand signal, except you swing your hand right and left from the elbow. As if RR tracks aren't the most well-marked road deviations on the planet already! If people don't notice the huge markings on the pavement, or the black and white arms and red lights on the side of the road....

Jenn

[Karin Kirk]

Time for a Springtime bump of this thread.

I have a pet peeve about excessive use of hand signals in group rides.

Last night was the first ride for my weekly women's road rides, during which I coach bike handling skills, various riding techniques and introductory race tactics. This first ride was to be just a ride with no specific coaching, just to kick of the season on a mellow note.

To my dismay, we had a crash upon exiting the parking lot! Agh! What a terrible way to kick off the ride. Thankfully everyone was OK and once we got some band-aids applied we were able to continue the ride.

But the culprit was hand signaling, leaving only one hand on the bars at a slow and unstable speed. The rider then grabbed the front brake hard enough to go over the bars. Yuck!

So I will repeat my PSA: Leave both hands on the bars! There is generally no need to signal unless riding in a tight group where folks can't see potholes. Signaling to communicate with cars is a good idea too, but in a group not every rider needs to do this. If the whole group is making a turn or coming to a stop, it is not necessary for every rider to signal - folks can tell what to expect just by watching the group.

Pointing out every possible obstacle and turn may seem like it's helpful and friendly, but it isn't. The most helpful thing you can do on a group ride is take care of yourself, ride a straight line and be smooth and predicable.

[rugbysecondrow]

My wife did her first group ride of the year this past Sunday and the leader of the groups spilled in the first 50 feet. He hit an oil slick and went down hard.

It scared my wife, who is already not the most comfortable road rider, but it was a good lesson to learn. Debris, manhole covers, grates, RR tracks, bridges, oil slicks, painted lines, sticks and slick leaves...there are hazards out there and focus is important. Add cars and pedestrians and it is not easy riding sometimes.

The guy broke his collarbone and will ride again, but it seems this message from Karin is very timely.

Safe riding everybody.

[MattTuck]

Most of my riding is solo, so I don't get to see this ridiculous signal.


When I end up towing someone, I usually just use the old "hand down, palm facing backward" about 10 yards before I start to slow. In the event of emergency deceleration, I shout "stopping"


I wonder what signal Mark Renshaw uses to communicate to Cavendish that it's time to put the jets on. I think it would be hilarious if it was the signal Karin describes.

[Kevan]

I've seen it and you're right, it's a dangerous move taking one hand and placing it behind your back. I myself...I'm more inclined to use the simple downward-facing open palm, signaling "halt!" With my elbow bent slightly outward, I make a point of keeping my hand in the neighborhood of the bars and I only flash the signal for a brief moment while either yelling, "Slowing!" or "Stopping!" I will argue that for a seasoned rider, riding with a group who they are familiar with, the danger is likely lessened, depending on the situation of the slowdown. And depending on that situation I bet a seasoned rider is going to know how best to communicate, sometimes leaving his hands in place on the bars.

Getting out of a parking lot at the start of a ride shouldn't necessitate the use of any such signal because we all know (or should know) that the maneuver is a slow event. Honestly, everyone should be well aware there will be a decrease in speed as a group start merges onto a trafficked road. I understand this is a "Fred" thing for new riders to come to terms with, and they will eventually learn. Anyway, I would expect a couple left or right signals from lead riders, but those can be discontinued as the rider is setting for the turn. Also, when using a hand signal to brake, I’d use the left hand so the right hand is left for modulating the rear brake, hence less a chance of being tossed over the bars.

End of it, sometimes I signal, sometimes I don’t, but I will always try to help out the guy behind me. Maybe by just yelling.

[Louis]

leaving only one hand on the bars at a slow and unstable speed. The rider then grabbed the front brake hard enough to go over the bars. Yuck!.

Wow, going over the bars even though they were going slowly. :eek: