Horse racing

[David Kirk]

Horse racing isn't cool.

Dave

[mschol17]

With absolutely no intent for this to devolve into a political thread, does anyone else find the events of the Derby ironic?

[Redturbo]

Do they know if they win?

[Tobias]

Sad when they get hurt.

Same can happen to people on bikes or cars.

[T.J.]

Try living in Louisville. I have been to the Derby once and have no plans to go back. Way to many drunk obnoxious people and well, i generally dont like people much.

[paczki]

Sad when they get hurt.

Same can happen to people on bikes or cars.

True, but they don't run so fast there legs snap off. Horrible.

[Tobias]

With absolutely no intent for this to devolve into a political thread, does anyone else find the events of the Derby ironic?I must have missed what happened. Figured DK was refering to horse being put down -- hardly political.

[sock puppet]

I must have missed what happened. Figured DK was refering to horse being put down -- hardly political.

Hillary bet on the horse that was euthanised. Seriously.

[mschol17]

I must have missed what happened. Figured DK was refering to horse being put down -- hardly political.


PM sent

[93LegendTG]

Horse racing isn't cool.

Dave
or dog racing or any other excuse to bet on an animal.

[cs124]

Most of my mother's side of the family were involved in horse racing. Trainers, jockeys, handicappers and gamblers. Even the family priest (catholic, as if you'd not guess!) was a renowned punter. Horse racing is what put food on the table for us.

I have some great memories from my youth of days at the races, early morning track sessions, riding on million dollar thorougbreds as they were walked by my uncle around the training yard. Great for show and tell at school the next day.

But there was a dark side too. My grandfather would get visits from seedy characters. Finances were always "up and down" and there were too many friends killed or maimed in falls.

To bring this back to Dave's initial post, I don't remember ever seeing tears shed over the horses. They were pampered... fed, watered, sheltered, groomed. But it was obvious that they were really just plant and equipment. The tools that the family used to earn an income.

It's interesting that they are all retired or passed on now and none of my cousins or siblings continued in the business. The "dynasty", for want of a better word, died out in one generation.

[Louis]

I was going to start a thread on this very topic. I did not watch the race, but heard about it on the news. Any sport that puts up with that sort of thing is seriously flawed. (Whether it be pro-level cycling, which has scary similarities, or horse racing.) One good thing I can say about cycling is that at least the participants can say no (difficult as it might be) whereas the horses have no choice.

I can only hope that people will tire of seeing horses break down right before their eyes and be executed on the spot. Perhaps that will bring down the TV ratings.

Louis

[Sandy]

Horse racing isn't cool.

Dave

Nor are the Iditarod Great Sled Race (dogs), greyhound racing, bullfighting (think about that one), or dog (or any animal) fighting.



Sandy

[92degrees]

Not into it. But we breed cows and pigs to eat 'em and that hardly seems any more sporting than breeding dogs or horses to run. I'm not a vegetarian. I think animals should be treated humanely. Just an observation.

[Sandy]

Not into it. But we breed cows and pigs to eat 'em and that hardly seems any more sporting than breeding dogs or horses to run. I'm not a vegetarian. I think animals should be treated humanely. Just an observation.


I think that dogs bred to run are beautiful as they really look as if they were bred for that purpose. A Greyhound running is a beautiful sight. Problem is that often those Greyhounds used in racing are not treated humanely. There has been improvement in how they are treated but I wonder how much. I operated a small family owned wholesale meat business. I primarily bought pork, beef, and chicken products. Never thought too much about what I was selling until a person at the local shelter asked me how I could obviously care so much about dogs but at the same time be in a business in which animals were killed. I thought about the question and realized that I had no satisfactory answer. Still don't.


Sandy

[AgilisMerlin]

read that yesterday evening. Sad

no different than the group ride 3 weeks ago, where my friend with the concussion, after hitting the pothole and exploding his wheel...........slid right into the left hand lane................no cars were approaching, but in that circumstance........the car would of had no time to react.

expect the unexpected.....jmo

sad

(well i quess there are those who have choices, and those that don't - post edit)

[toaster]

If you think doping is rampant in cycling try looking into horse racing.

[dleroy]

I read a couple of days ago a piece on horse racing that brought attention to the fact that almost all successful thoroughbreds are descended from Native Dancer. The line produces great speed but also weak ankles. So far that is a trade off that has been accepted. I wonder how long that acceptance will continue in view of recent events.

[barry1021]

can't go away fast enough for me. And breeding abuse. And hunting. And we eat way too much meat, more than we need, not healthy and ineffiecient use of land and resources. There I am done.

[toaster]

can't go away fast enough for me. And breeding abuse. And hunting. And we eat way too much meat, more than we need, not healthy and ineffiecient use of land and resources. There I am done.


Hunting is largely misunderstood. Hunters contribute to wildlife management and provide funds for conservation.

Weak animals are hunted and killed by predator animals or die of natural causes and are eaten by other animals. Stronger animals that have contributed to breeding can be harvested by hunters near the end of the animals life cycle and this actually is good for the rest of the herd.

[92degrees]

We have adopted greyhounds in the past. May do it again. It was clear from their behavior that they were treated poorly in their earlier days. Once my son was born we were less confident about bringing some of them in. He's older now and is more capable of understanding what a troubled dog needs. Sweet animals.

[paczki]

I read a couple of days ago a piece on horse racing that brought attention to the fact that almost all successful thoroughbreds are descended from Native Dancer. The line produces great speed but also weak ankles. So far that is a trade off that has been accepted. I wonder how long that acceptance will continue in view of recent events.

Thanks, I didn't know that. Apparently all of the thoroughbreds in the Derby were descendants. That's some inbreeding! While tracking information about this down I also discovered that the trainer of the winner is notorious for drugging -- horses and himself.

[barry1021]

Hunting is largely misunderstood. Hunters contribute to wildlife management and provide funds for conservation.

Weak animals are hunted and killed by predator animals or die of natural causes and are eaten by other animals. Stronger animals that have contributed to breeding can be harvested by hunters near the end of the animals life cycle and this actually is good for the rest of the herd.

Maybe in a perfect hunting world, but sorry I don't buy it......

[93legendti]

I think that dogs bred to run are beautiful as they really look as if they were bred for that purpose. A Greyhound running is a beautiful sight. Problem is that often those Greyhounds used in racing are not treated humanely. There has been improvement in how they are treated but I wonder how much. I operated a small family owned wholesale meat business. I primarily bought pork, beef, and chicken products. Never thought too much about what I was selling until a person at the local shelter asked me how I could obviously care so much about dogs but at the same time be in a business in which animals were killed. I thought about the question and realized that I had no satisfactory answer. Still don't.


Sandy
I have no strong feelings either way, but after watching "Big Cats" on Animal Planet with my kids the last few days, the phrase "are not treated humanely" seemed ironic, since animals (predators and prey) don't always treat each other "humanely" - nor do they always treat us "humanely" when they come upon us in the wild.

No real point, just remarking on the irony.

[J.Greene]

Maybe in a perfect hunting world, but sorry I don't buy it......

Oh I do completely. The issue is that humans have changed the balance in nature so much in some areas hunting is a must. Hunters and fisherman have contributed greatly to the protection of land and streams, though it's not only for the environment.

I have a distaste for people who hunt only for the kill, but the facts stand for themselved on how we must manage our resources. Hunting is an efficient way to to keep the new natural balance we've created.

JG

[toaster]

Consumers, i.e. you and me, have done much more harm to wildlife than the average american hunter has.

All the while the hunter's dollars go much further to create resources to help wildlife compared to what the typical american contributes to wildlife conservation.

Encroaching on habitat with development and use of land and resources to create more goods and services for human consumption is far worse.

There is no comparison.

[Karin Kirk]

When I was in college I adopted a retired racehorse. Since I often rode my bike to the barn to visit him, he learned to recognize bicycles. He was a sweet horse but never turned into much of a riding horse, which didn't matter a lot to me.

Many race horses have a second life as riding horses. And it's a much better life where they are pampered, fawned over, and loved. Sadly, many racehorses never make it that far.

I hope that after two high-profile tragedies there will be some pressure to change the practices in horse racing. If its happening in bike racing, maybe there's some hope for horses too.

As for eating animals, I have a new guideline which helps me a lot. I don't dwell on the fact that the animals are killed, as every life has to have an ending one way or another. Instead the question is did they suffer. Did they live a life of suffering (think feedlot) or have a death that involved suffering?

If I can be convinced that an animal has a reasonable quality of life, I feel no conflict in eating it. This includes cage-free eggs, grass-finished beef and the like. Simply buying organic meat does not guarantee any of this, but buying from local ranchers is a better bet.

I think hunting is one of the most ecologically sound ways to get your meat. Unfortunately I have no taste for wild meat, because I appreciate the fact that these animals get to live a wild and natural life. I also agree that hunters, fishermen, ranchers, and conservationists are working together in many cases for the same cause. Out here that is a huge alliance.

Dave and I would like to adopt old donkeys or ponies someday. I think that would suit our retirement as crazy old people!

[1centaur]

When I was a boy living in England I saw a jockey galloping a horse on some misty morning downs and was thrilled - the speed, the power, the vitality. Horse racing is on TV almost every week in season in England and I enjoyed it, though I should note that the English race on grass and at least when I was there they did not race 2-year olds (3 and up) due to perceived fragility. Racing in the dirt is supposedly harder on the ankles.

This is notwithstanding the Grand National that is just obscene.

I had favorite horses and jockeys and loved to watch. Moved back to America as a teen and watched the Triple Crown races and then some time around my mid-20s there was one of those "break downs (pathetic euphemism) and the horse was obviously in mental anguish as well as physical pain. That was my wake-up call. This type of exploitation of a sentient creature has no justification. I stopped watching. Or as DK put it, not cool.

[David Kirk]

I'm not sure how this moved toward hunting and while I have strong feelings about hunting I'm going to leave this alone.

As for horse racing. A few folks have drawn parallels to other sports where the participants have the chance of injury. It's true, we all risk injury in our sports. The thing in my mind that completely separates say us as cyclists, and horses is that we cyclists know and accept the risks we will be exposed to when we participate in our sport. We all know that there are cars out there trying to kill us and sandy corners and the like and we make our choices and take our risks.

The horses don't make their choices and they don't get a choice. These stunning animals know nothing else. Some say they love to run. Looking at them I believe this to be true. I also believe that they are jacked up on drugs and hormones in such a way that they are bursting at the seams to get rid of all the pent up energy that the drugs and breeding instill in them and that running is the only way they know to feel better. To me it's like giving a little kid an espresso and then saying "look, he likes to run". More like he has to run.

Horse racing is huge business and I don't expect that incidents like yesterday's will change much in the long run. Nonetheless I hope it helps folks realize that something is wrong and that these animals are being abused for our "entertainment" and that is, at it's core, wrong.


Dave

[dbrk]

I nearly married a woman whose father is part of the thoroughbred racing scene in Louisville: big farm, big, big money, a certain culture, etc. She loved it. I ran away as fast as I could, ahh, not soon enough. Using animals for this sort of entertainment makes me think of boxing ---though I'm not exactly sure why I make that association---and I've no taste for that either.

dbrk

[staggerwing]

Can't say I'm fond of the sport. But, I have an uncle that was farm manager for two of the more successful standardbred operations. You toss a dozen of these tightly bred horses out in a pasture for the evening and they have their own races. One takes off, and the whole pack chases after. The young stallions will do this again and again and again. In this open setting, it is a beautiful sight. My uncle could look at a field of such behavior and give you a pretty good idea of which horses were the ones to watch.

[chuckroast]

I think the boxing analogy is oddly appropriate. Boxing hangs on as a fringe sport but with nowhere near the prominence it once had. Although for those involved, it is their livelihood, it increasingly has become distasteful to the rest of the general public. Maybe horse racing also loses hearts and minds over time as more of these incidents occur.

FWIW, I attended the 1996 Derby (Grindstone) and had a great time. The public drunkeness was confined to the infield as far as I could see and, from the stands, the athleticism of the horses and jockeys was very apparent. Plus, they are way faster than I would have thought.

[barry1021]

I'm not sure how this moved toward hunting and while I have strong feelings about hunting I'm going to leave this alone.

As for horse racing. A few folks have drawn parallels to other sports where the participants have the chance of injury. It's true, we all risk injury in our sports. The thing in my mind that completely separates say us as cyclists, and horses is that we cyclists know and accept the risks we will be exposed to when we participate in our sport. We all know that there are cars out there trying to kill us and sandy corners and the like and we make our choices and take our risks.

The horses don't make their choices and they don't get a choice. These stunning animals know nothing else. Some say they love to run. Looking at them I believe this to be true. I also believe that they are jacked up on drugs and hormones in such a way that they are bursting at the seams to get rid of all the pent up energy that the drugs and breeding instill in them and that running is the only way they know to feel better. To me it's like giving a little kid an espresso and then saying "look, he likes to run". More like he has to run.

Horse racing is huge business and I don't expect that incidents like yesterday's will change much in the long run. Nonetheless I hope it helps folks realize that something is wrong and that these animals are being abused for our "entertainment" and that is, at it's core, wrong.


Dave

The connection is that racing, or shooting, a living thing for "sport": I have difficulty drawing the distinction. Not really interested in hearing the explanations either. I think hunters in the Wide Open Spaces probably are much different than those in New England.
JMO. I recognize it's an emotional response, may not be based in reality. Have many friends that go to horse races, raise horses for racing, hunt. That's their right. They think that I am crazy for wearing spandex. So it goes.

[bluedog18]

Whether it's animal, person or machine pushing to and past their limits; you will have the greater chance of injury or even death. I wish that individuals racing would recognize that there point in one's body or animal's body or even machine that is pushing way too hard and need to say I need to back off before something or someone is serious injured.

Now saying that, I believe horse racing save my grandfather's life. It got him out of coal mines and working as farm manager for the rest of his life. Also I know that certain jockeys would never ride my grandfather and uncle's horses because of the lack of care of the animal well being of the horse when racing. They didn’t want a rider to keep pushing the horse when they knew something was wrong.

[mikki]

I think that dogs bred to run are beautiful as they really look as if they were bred for that purpose. A Greyhound running is a beautiful sight. Problem is that often those Greyhounds used in racing are not treated humanely. There has been improvement in how they are treated but I wonder how much. I operated a small family owned wholesale meat business. I primarily bought pork, beef, and chicken products. Never thought too much about what I was selling until a person at the local shelter asked me how I could obviously care so much about dogs but at the same time be in a business in which animals were killed. I thought about the question and realized that I had no satisfactory answer. Still don't.


Sandy

I am conflicted about this one too. Wish I could be completely vegan, but my body doesn't seem to like it; my skin gets sunken looking and I am not as strong for the demands that both my career and my cycling ask of me physically. I eat mainly fish, soy, some chicken and loads of vegetables and fruits but feel as if I am being hypocritical since I am such an animal lover.

I hate the competition aspect of the racing that happens in horse racing, dog racing, etc. etc. Though they are bred to run and that is their heritage, running in fields is entirely different from what animals are put through to competitive race. I was raised on a ranch in wine country that trained and housed race horses and watched how they were trained. I have seen one horse race in my life in person and a horse broke it's legs and had to be put down right there. Will never see another.

As for the comparison to cyclists and other sport activities, it is a conscious, free will choice for humans to participate. People do the choosing on the behalf of the animals. And a cruel choice in my opinion.

[big shanty]

If you're in Kentucky, do you really need an excuse to go outside on a nice spring day and guzzle bourbon and gravy?

[JohnS]

Is it just coincidence that there are 14 White Castle locations in Louisville? :p

[djg21]

and nothing like bike racing. While cyclists can surely get hurt, the difference is that we elect to participate in the sport. Horses don't have that option.

My main objection to racing is the age of the horses that are raced at the Derby and similar races. Jockey Club rules arbitrarily set January 1 as the date by which a horse's age is reckoned (in the Northern Hemisphere) irrespective of the horse's true age. Thus, horses born on January 2 and December 31 each are considered the same age for purposes of entering a race like the Derby. The result is that when a race is for 3-year olds, horses that are barely 2 are eligible to run. While horses typically are bred to be born just before January 1 so they have the benefit of maximal maturation and development when racing as 3-year olds, the fact is that 2-yr olds are far to young to race, and 3-yr olds are only marginally more suited for racing. These horses are barely adolescents, with immature bone structures and joints. Racing these horses is like making 12-yr old boys play pro football. It is silly, and driven solely by the desire to make money in racing and breeding.

While changing track surfaces to synthetic is a start, horses simply should not be raced until they are more mature -- perhaps as 5-yr olds. Of course, this would be far too expensive for the profit-driven racing industry.

[sailorboy]

Yea, I liked the part where the TV guys were speculating about what happened before they knew the details and one said something like "Usually when a horse collapses like that it's the result of a cardiac problem or an aneurysm" spoken from experience I take it...

Great, so they are forced to run until the heart explodes, or in this case, both front legs?

Sorry, but that's not a sport.

[Fixed]

Horse racing isn't cool.

Dave
i told my wife a horse was goin to get hurt when they showed the track all wet in the early a.m. sat in the news

a hores doesn't know to use less air when it is wet
cheers

[fierte_poser]

Plymouth Greyhound says "Race bikes, not animals! And, uh, stop posting my junk on the net..."

[David Kirk]

Plymouth Greyhound says "Race bikes, not animals! And, uh, stop posting my junk on the net..."

It's clear to me that this dog is getting too much love.

Nice work.

dave

[saab2000]

Greyhounds are, by far, the most docile animals I have ever seen. My buddy in St. Paul who owns Grand Performance has a couple as his shop dogs and they don't even lift a head when the door opens. Their eyes occasionally follow the movement in the store, but that's about it.

When they do move, it becomes obvious that they could run down a jet plane at takeoff!! They look like an Olympic sprinter at the starting blocks.

[Sandy]

Greyhounds are, by far, the most docile animals I have ever seen. My buddy in St. Paul who owns Grand Performance has a couple as his shop dogs and they don't even lift a head when the door opens. Their eyes occasionally follow the movement in the store, but that's about it.

When they do move, it becomes obvious that they could run down a jet plane at takeoff!! They look like an Olympic sprinter at the starting blocks.

I used to walk dogs at a local shelter. Most often the dogs were on leash as several dogs could be in the walking area at once. There was one area in which I always let the dog off leash but that area was quite small. My daughter adopted a lab/retriever mix from the shelter. I was at a dog park with my daugter and her dog a few times. One of the first things I noted was how quick most all of the dogs were, even little ones with short legs. I was amazed however when I saw a greyhound there for the first time. It took speed to another level. Reminds me of the first time I saw a whippet running on a beach. I could not believe how fast that dog was. Amazed me. If I was an olympic sprinter and had a greyhound to my right and a greyhound to my left and the gun went off, I would just sit there and watch the critters run. Why chase them....they would be too far ahead of me anyway.....enjoy the race since I would never be in it.

Yep- Look at a greyhound closely- Very deep chest for breathing, lean but with obvious well developed leg muscles, and even aero in appearance. Bred to run and run they can. Also remarkably laid back and sweet dogs.


Saluki (Great runner, great endurance) Sandy

[fierte_poser]

Greyhounds are, by far, the most docile animals I have ever seen. My buddy in St. Paul who owns Grand Performance has a couple as his shop dogs and they don't even lift a head when the door opens. Their eyes occasionally follow the movement in the store, but that's about it.

When they do move, it becomes obvious that they could run down a jet plane at takeoff!! They look like an Olympic sprinter at the starting blocks.

The proverbial "40mph couch potato!" They are good dogs and great companions.

[MilanoTom]

Hunting is largely misunderstood. Hunters contribute to wildlife management and provide funds for conservation.

Weak animals are hunted and killed by predator animals or die of natural causes and are eaten by other animals. Stronger animals that have contributed to breeding can be harvested by hunters near the end of the animals life cycle and this actually is good for the rest of the herd.

You practically make hunting sound like a job.

I don't think hunting is misunderstood. The benefits of which you write may be real, but I don't think that's the motivation for hunting. I doubt that hunters buy licenses, guns, ammo, etc. just so they can help thin the herds ("Yep, I can't wait until hunting season starts so I can help the conservation effort."). I (and perhaps a few others) would have more respect for hunters if they just admitted that for whatever reason, they just plain enjoyed doing it.

Regards.
Tom

[Ginger]

Race horses today are retired after half the starts of the horses of 50 years ago...they're bred for short careers and speed, not robustness. These animals are bred in quantity to find those freaks of nature that will win races. Much like cyclists, lots of them can run, but only a few come to the speed naturally. The rest are pack fodder. So they're bred and bred and bred.

But what happens to those horses that don't make it at the track (or in the show ring)? People think there's an overpopulation problem with dogs...the same happens with horses and not just thoroughbreds, standardbreds, quarter horses, and arabians (those that are raced)...That's when you hear the horror stories of 50 head herds of neglected horses, etc. etc. Someone trying to breed the next winner or sale lets their animals get out of hand and bad things happen.

After Ruffian, I stopped watching horse racing at any level...I was 11 when she broke down on the track. While the animals are beautiful, I don't agree with the sport.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_%28horse%29
That actually put me off of racing of any sort in general...

And I seldom agree with PETA...but this time I agree that the jockey should be kicked out of the sport.

I rode for so many years (I grew up on horses, they were my best buddies), you can't be on top of an animal like that who has something happening like that at any speed and NOT feel something gone wrong. A horse can have the biggest heart in the world and can continue because it's competitive and because you ask it to...But this horse broke down after the finish...she was galloping out...It should not have happened and I think jockey action caused the problem. Whether it was an issue when calling for a change of leads or what I don't know...but I bet he remembers what happened.

I also agree that if horses are raced...they shouldn't be raced until their bones are mature. And the advances in synthetic tracks are huge. Even if they continue to race them as three year olds, they shouldn't be allowed to run on anything but synthetic or grass until their bones are formed.

And steeplechase? ugh. Don't get me started.

[Louis]

I think the question now is whether or not they will make any meaningful changes to improve the situation. I don't know enough about horses to propose anything (age and track surface have been mentioned already) but I'm guessing that there's probably too much money invested in the status quo for much to happen.

[H.Frank Beshear]

I (and perhaps a few others) would have more respect for hunters if they just admitted that for whatever reason, they just plain enjoyed doing it.Regards.
Tom

I enjoy it, never denied it. I've seen 2 cock quail fight over a hen, a peregrine falcon chase a rooster pheasant to the ground about 15' away from my tree stand. My favorite is squirrel hunting, I was sitting in a blow down watching 2 young ones just out of range when a young Red tail hawk tried to get lunch, it missed and then couldn't get airborne, so it hopped and squawked it way over to where I was sitting, it found plenty of air when I said Good morning. I've watched Bucks fighting over a doe, turkeys and more. So yeah I enjoy hunting. If you were referring to killing an animal, well that is part of hunting. Unlike fishing it's a bit harder to practice catch and release. For the record there are good hunters and bad hunters, sort of like cyclist some respect the world around them and others think the world revolves around them.

My opinion for what it's worth horse racing isn't hunting, like Dave I'm not sure how this thread devolved into a hunting thread. Enjoy the day. Frank

[Louis]

I enjoy it, never denied it. I've seen 2 cock quail fight over a hen, a peregrine falcon chase a rooster pheasant to the ground about 15' away from my tree stand. My favorite is squirrel hunting, I was sitting in a blow down watching 2 young ones just out of range when a young Red tail hawk tried to get lunch, it missed and then couldn't get airborne, so it hopped and squawked it way over to where I was sitting, it found plenty of air when I said Good morning. I've watched Bucks fighting over a doe, turkeys and more. So yeah I enjoy hunting. If you were referring to killing an animal, well that is part of hunting.

Frank, nothing personal, but this is what I don't get. Most of this quote involves enjoying live animals. Great. But the bottom line in hunting is that you kill the prey. Seem contradictory in my opinion. If you truly enjoyed them for what they are then why the need to kill them? Killing is not just part of hunting, it's the primary goal of the thing. If you were doing it to feed your family, I'd understand, but it's probably a lot cheaper to buy the meat at the grocery store.

When I was a little kid I realized that killing animals made me feel pretty bad (I grew up on a chicken farm) and I've never considered being a hunter. I guess that's just me.

Louis

[H.Frank Beshear]

Guess i forgot to mention that fried squirrel with buttermilk biscuits and white gravy would be my request for a last meal. I understand where you are and respect that, can you do the same for me? I like to hunt, I was raised in a family that hunts, and I enjoy eating what I kill. Sorry if that doesn't fit into everyones picture of a perfect world. I'm not ready for fried tofu with a side of gravy yet. Frank

[Louis]

can you do the same for me?

Absolutely. Some of my best buddies at work are avid hunters, and I don't try in the least to object. I know it's a life-style thing and very important to some people. It's just not for me.

Louis

PS you sure you wouldn't want some TOFU instead of that venison sausage? ;)

[Climb01742]

for a while when i was younger, i tried rock climbing. one day, as my leg was sewing-machining a few hundred feet above the ground, something dawned on me: i wasn't cut out for activities where death was the price of failure. the equation just didn't work for me.

somehow this seems to relate to horse racing, but maybe not. i felt sick when i saw the photo of the horse laying on the track, knowing what his fate was.

[keno]

This thread has evoked many, many thoughts and feelings in me.

I've been around horses, up close and personal, for 40 years. Rode, fox hunted, competed in eventing myself. Presently, we own an equestrian center my wife developed in her spare time, and we own 4 and 1/2 horses. These are all dressage and event horses, and I should live so well. When in Boston, I spent many hours at the tracks and came away whole. I think that horses are some of the most beatiful animals I have ever seen. I also think that they are dumb as stones, but they don't show it off as we humans do. By and large I love them. I happen to enjoy Triple Crown Races and some other of the bigger races. I hate the tragedies. I stayed away from racing for a decade after Timely Writer broke down, which was decades back.

Saturday's Derby was a fabulous race up until the tragedy. Big Brown ran a much longer race than the other horses, starting from the far ouside in a field of 20. The start isn't staggered, I don't believe at all, as in human distance races. An extremely impressive victory.

Ginger, how in the world can you blame on the jockey what happened to Eight Belles breaking down after the finish line in her warm down? How does a rider cause a horse to break its ankles? And, BTW, at least PETA is seeking the jockey's suspension while an inquiry is made but you would ban him from the sport? Where does this come from?

There is an old saw in horse racing. Horse racing is a great sport except for the horses and the people.

Would someone please explain to me why a zoo should exist, particularly those of you on the "no choice" side? Personally, I hate them and won't go to them just because those creatures have been taken from their habitats and live unnatural lives. For me, horse racing is thousands of years old and I enjoy it, for the most part. It strikes me as far more natural than zoos do.

I have one more question for those against racing because the animals have no choice. Is assisted suicide acceptable to you? Is a lingering, painful death acceptable in human beings who may have a choice? In many regards I see race horses treated much more humanely than are many humans in similar circumstances, and I see much fuzziness and inconsistency in discussion of the two.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

I have one more question for those against racing because the animals have no choice. <cut>
better to have gone casartelli style atmo - afap.


man what a strange thread.

[keno]

Strange is the new forum black. BTW, "People Are Strange".

keno

[Onno]

There's a good article in today's NY Times by novelist Jane Smiley, whose "Horse Heaven" is a terrific novel about the horse racing industry. The article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/sports/othersports/04smiley.html?

As a crazy vegan animal lover, I have strong feelings about all the issues raised in this mostly thoughtful thread. I don't know a lot about horse racing, though, having adopted a few greyhounds, I know a little about that. It would be good for both sports to die a natural death, but it won't happen soon because the people involved are motivated by too many compelling desires, including even love of the animal (probably more true in horse racing than dog racing, I think).

That said, greyhound racing does seem to be fading away, and horse racing is slowly losing its luster too. I'm surprised the industry doesn't do more in response to these horrible deaths, when there are lots of things they could do: not just changing the track, but probably most important, not letting horses race long distances until they are older and stronger.

One final thought: it's an extraordinary thing, isn't it, that we can feel such profound emotion in response to the death of an animal we don't know?

[Sandy]

Zoos probably exist because we all were taken as kids by our parents to see the neat animals at the zoo. It was fun to go to the zoo. Who of us at a young age even thought about how the animals were being treated? So the zoo became part of our life, with our kids taking their kids to the neat and fun place witht the animals, peanuts, and food. I for sure never thought about how the animals were being treated. In addition, zoos are educational- You can learn about the animals by visiting them at the zoo.

My perception of zoos is much different than as a kid. The animals are not domesticated and that makes it even worse than dealing with domesticated ones. Wild animals in cages is not where they belong. No animals belong in cages, except maybe some human ones who may deserve worse. If it were up to me, there would be no zoos. Let the animals live in their natural environment. That is the way that it should be, I think.


Sandy

PS- 4 1/2 horses? Share ownership of the 1/2 horse or is the 1/2 horse just 1/2 of a horse, or something more appealing- say 1/2 horse and 1/2 parrot or something like that. If actually 1/2 of a horse, than which half? Front? Rear? Top? Bottom? Inquring minds simply need to know. :)

[my2cents]

... as a result of race related incidents*. 1.xx (can't remember the details) deaths per 1000 starts. Espn radio calculated the number of starts and determined this equaled 2 horse being killed everyday day of the year - 700-800 horses killed a year in RACES. How many more killed for insurance, in training, through neglect or abuse?

No moral comment - just adding some facts to the thread.

*this is for the USA only.

[J.Greene]

I have sympathy for these horses, but there is so much more tradegy that hit's close to home for me. It hits our attention because of the national spectacle. This does not even make the top 10.

JG

[Chad Engle]

I don't think hunting is misunderstood. The benefits of which you write may be real, but I don't think that's the motivation for hunting. I doubt that hunters buy licenses, guns, ammo, etc. just so they can help thin the herds ("Yep, I can't wait until hunting season starts so I can help the conservation effort."). I (and perhaps a few others) would have more respect for hunters if they just admitted that for whatever reason, they just plain enjoyed doing it.

Regards.
Tom

Frank, nothing personal, but this is what I don't get. Most of this quote involves enjoying live animals. Great. But the bottom line in hunting is that you kill the prey. Seem contradictory in my opinion. If you truly enjoyed them for what they are then why the need to kill them? Killing is not just part of hunting, it's the primary goal of the thing. If you were doing it to feed your family, I'd understand, but it's probably a lot cheaper to buy the meat at the grocery store.

When I was a little kid I realized that killing animals made me feel pretty bad (I grew up on a chicken farm) and I've never considered being a hunter. I guess that's just me.

Louis


Gentlemen:

Are there deer in the area you in which you live? Thinning the herd is a very serious reason for deer hunting, turkey as well here in the midwest. I think it goes without saying that hunters enjoy it or they wouldn't spend the time and money to take part. I'll say I love it.

I involve my kids, it's time well spent and they learn to respect and enjoy the outdoors. Yes they learn to respect and appreciate animals by sometimes killing them. They learn to identify a hen from a drake, a hen from a tom, doe from buck and so on. They learn to identify what bird is in season and that you don't just indiscriminantly shoot things for kicks, they should learn the reasons for hunting seasons. Can you teach kids this same appreciation without hunting? Certainly.

Yes we eat what we kill, had wild turkey breast on the grill last night for dinner, it was spectacular. May have been cheaper at the store but this bird took my son and I a day and a half to hunt down and kill. I think by only buying your meat from a store a kid has no idea where animals/meat come from. If you think a store bought turkey somehow lived a better life than a wild turkey... well I assume you are smarter than that.

Some hunters actually are active in generating funds to put back into the environment in addition to direct licensing fees. Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, Pheasants Forever, Whitetails Forever, National Turkey Federation, the list is really quite long.

Buying a hybrid or riding a bike doesn't make you an environmentalist, getting involved does.

I understand and respect non-hunters, just thought I would explain why some of us enjoy hunting and that there are benefits, for non-hunters as well.

Have a good week all.

Edit: Regarding the OP, I don't care much for horse racing, horses are big and scary.

[sc53]

Nobody's gonna mention circuses?? Worse than zoos, IMO.

[Charles M]

No way I read through 5 pages, but it occured to me that Pro Cycling has been doing this to it's athlete's for years...

Tom Simpson is our Eight Bells.

[sock puppet]

If we're talking about exploitation, what about the young cyrus girl-she woman?

And don't forget Super-fly.

We come from a proud tradition of exploitation in this country, animals, people alike. It's just more of a commodity we buy now, a product, not like the slave children working in Chinese factories who make it for us to consume.

[William]

Gentlemen:

Are there deer in the area you in which you live? Thinning the herd is a very serious reason for deer hunting, turkey as well here in the midwest. I think it goes without saying that hunters enjoy it or they wouldn't spend the time and money to take part. I'll say I love it.

I involve my kids, it's time well spent and they learn to respect and enjoy the outdoors. Yes they learn to respect and appreciate animals by sometimes killing them. They learn to identify a hen from a drake, a hen from a tom, doe from buck and so on. They learn to identify what bird is in season and that you don't just indiscriminantly shoot things for kicks, they should learn the reasons for hunting seasons. Can you teach kids this same appreciation without hunting? Certainly.

Yes we eat what we kill, had wild turkey breast on the grill last night for dinner, it was spectacular. May have been cheaper at the store but this bird took my son and I a day and a half to hunt down and kill. I think by only buying your meat from a store a kid has no idea where animals/meat come from. If you think a store bought turkey somehow lived a better life than a wild turkey... well I assume you are smarter than that.

Some hunters actually are active in generating funds to put back into the environment in addition to direct licensing fees. Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, Pheasants Forever, Whitetails Forever, National Turkey Federation, the list is really quite long.

Buying a hybrid or riding a bike doesn't make you an environmentalist, getting involved does.

I understand and respect non-hunters, just thought I would explain why some of us enjoy hunting and that there are benefits, for non-hunters as well.

Have a good week all.

Edit: Regarding the OP, I don't care much for horse racing, horses are big and scary.


http://tennesseeguy.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/ted-nugent-music.jpg

;) :)

[e-RICHIE]

No way I read through 5 pages, but it occured to me that Pro Cycling has been doing this to it's athlete's for years...

Tom Simpson is our Eight Bells.
doode - reconfigure your user cp.
there are only two pages atmo.

[David Kirk]

This is interesting for sure.

I fully agree that there are bigger issues in our world. I could list so many off the top of my head that it makes me sick to think of. Zoos and hunting and horse racing and animal neglect and abuse and hunger and war and......... it's a long list.

Accepting the above doesn't mean we should do nothing about things that aren't on the top of the list. If we only address the stuff that's on top of the list then all we'll end up doing is arguing what should be on the top of the list.

So yes there are things out there that are worse than horse racing. This doesn't mean we should ignore horse racing. It is, in my view, wrong and I hope that the lives of all these beautiful animals that are lost are not lost in vane but that it , in time, shreds light on the issue and helps change it or bring it to an end.

dave

[chrisroph]

don't know why i thought of this but

what is happening in sf re the tiger that escaped and ran that dude down?

[benb]

I'm not sure but I thought that Tiger was put down quite a while ago. That tiger had priors... but anyway Tigers are so freaking deadly it's almost like they really shouldn't kept in zoos.

Last time I checked no cyclists have been euthanised after big crashes.. so there really is no comparison even if someone was forcing cyclists or other human athletes to race at gunpoint.

As for hunting the hunters need to innovate and figure out a safe way to hunt deer in suburban areas. The deer herd in the northeast needs to be thinned so much it's not even funny. I constantly joke about bringing one down with the 3" knife that is on my multi-tool. I've come incredibly close to T-boning them on my mountain bike, and I've gotten stuck in a group of about 10 when I was on my road bike before. Last week I got to see my aunts yard/garden and she was all bummed as it's been devastated by the deer and she's in a pretty densely populated area.

And then there was a bunch of video on the news this weekend of a bunch of out of control deer running through a city center in the area.. one of them even smashed through the plate glass windows at a Dunkin Donuts.

I feel lucky that I've not had a bicycle/motorcycle/car accident with a deer.. I couldn't possibly count the # of close calls I've had.

More deer hunting! (Not a hunter myself)

If you love greyhounds do a search for the Top Gear (British car show) segment with a Greyhound. They raced a sports car against a Greyhound around a Greyhound track and the dog won..

[HSG Racer]

I'm not into horse racing at all. But, the Kentucky Derby has always been an occasion for our family and friends to have a party and celebrate. It's kind of like a super bowl party for us except with mint juleps instead of beer. I don't think that any of our friends really care about the actual horse race or who wins. It's just a reason for us to come together and celebrate.

I wouldn't shed a tear if horse racing went away tomorrow. But, most or all sports have certain risks associated with them. Nascar racing, bullfighting, football and even cycling all present certain risks to those who participate. There is no such thing as an injury free sport regardless of whether it includes humans or animals.

[Tobias]

And I seldom agree with PETA...but this time I agree that the jockey should be kicked out of the sport.On GMA this morning an expert who had worked with the horse said that racing on steroids is legal. I would have not thought that. :confused:

She also pointed out that in her opinion the jockey was not at fault. The horse broke one leg in something like three places and within a couple of strides the other one gave out as she tried to slow. She attributed the problem to the track conditions after the finish where the ground was much too hard.

[Ginger]

On GMA this morning an expert who had worked with the horse said that racing on steroids is legal. I would have not thought that. :confused:

She also pointed out that in her opinion the jockey was not at fault. The horse broke one leg in something like three places and within a couple of strides the other one gave out as she tried to slow. She attributed the problem to the track conditions after the finish where the ground was much too hard.


She's entitled to her opinion. Since she's an expert, I guess she's right.

But then, experts say it's ok to use certain drugs to allow the horses to race without coughing up blood...

Horse racing "expert" opinions on either side are colored by money.

[J.Greene]

I'm still honestly curious why the jockey was at fault. What did he not do that may have avoided this tradegy?

JG

[Tobias]

I’m an animal lover and deplore cruelty, so I want to ask if any of you ever wonder why a perfect God created nature in such a way that killing and suffering is so prevalent. Not to diminish the concerns expressed here, but for every horse that is put down I’d guess millions of animals die more horrific deaths by divine design. It's not to say that we shouldn't do what we can, but it seems we must be missing something much bigger that I can't grasp.

It's not an abstract conflict for me since I end up thinking a lot about it. IMO God must think hunting is OK -- he designed nature around it. What about animal cruelty? Do animals that starve or thirst to death suffer? What about being eaten by a wolf or bear? I’d guess yes – a little pain is involved.

What I feel and what I reason on this subject are at opposite poles. As much as I’ve tried I can’t pull them closer. I’m “saddened” to see a horse euthanized but “reason” that in the scope of nature it’s inconsequential. And that saddens me more.

[Tobias]

She's entitled to her opinion. Since she's an expert, I guess she's right.

But then, experts say it's ok to use certain drugs to allow the horses to race without coughing up blood...

Horse racing "expert" opinions on either side are colored by money.For the record, she was making a point that steroids should not be used because it makes horses even faster.

As to the broken legs, it makes sense to me that both legs would not break simultaneously, or that a horse could run that fast with a broken leg. It looks to me like the second leg broke when the horse tried to slow down very quickly due to the first break. I expect that had to have placed much greater loads on the remaining front leg.

Had this happended during the race it could have been worse -- she could have taken a few down with her.

[jerk]

I have no strong feelings either way, but after watching "Big Cats" on Animal Planet with my kids the last few days, the phrase "are not treated humanely" seemed ironic, since animals (predators and prey) don't always treat each other "humanely" - nor do they always treat us "humanely" when they come upon us in the wild.

No real point, just remarking on the irony.


uhm...that's because animals aren't human. compassion and sympathy are sorta people things.

jerk

btw...i love horse racing. and mrs. jerk wants to adopt this guy:

http://www.greyhoundwelfare.org/viewAnimal.php?animalKey=338&location=New%20England&sort=

[Ginger]

I wouldn't shed a tear if horse racing went away tomorrow. But, most or all sports have certain risks associated with them. Nascar racing, bullfighting, football and even cycling all present certain risks to those who participate. There is no such thing as an injury free sport regardless of whether it includes humans or animals.

This is absolutely true. While the horses don't have a choice in the matter...
Racing takes a toll on jockeys as well. Take a fall off a horse in the middle of a pack and not only do they hit the ground, they get run over by large animals. If memory serves me right, their health insurance premiums are some of the highest in the US. It's a dangerous profession.

Groups like this exist for the horses:
http://www.unwantedhorsecoalition.org/?id=5&s=4&story=28

[Ken Robb]

uhm...that's because animals aren't human. compassion and sympathy are sorta people things.

jerk

btw...i love horse racing. and mrs. jerk wants to adopt this guy:

http://www.greyhoundwelfare.org/viewAnimal.php?animalKey=338&location=New%20England&sort=
While walking our dogs we often meet a couple of retired greyhounds. They are beautiful friendly dogs who live happily in a condo with no yard. There is a nice park nearby where we "dog people" meet with our friends--two and four-legged. Iused to let my Labrador run free there but I can't trust the Bichons to come when called there are so many interesting things to sniff. FWIW, they seem way more interesting in tracking scents along the ground than any of my other dogs including a Pointer.

[Acotts]

Whats the deal with the 3-year age limit? Is it just tradition, or is there a reason?

Whats the deal?

[Chad Engle]

William:
Ted scares me to death, to each their own, but I feel he may do as much harm as good to the cause. On the other hand, he can play guitar!

[davids]

I’m an animal lover and deplore cruelty, so I want to ask if any of you ever wonder why a perfect God created nature in such a way that killing and suffering is so prevalent. Not to diminish the concerns expressed here, but for every horse that is put down I’d guess millions of animals die more horrific deaths by divine design. It's not to say that we shouldn't do what we can, but it seems we must be missing something much bigger that I can't grasp.

It's not an abstract conflict for me since I end up thinking a lot about it. IMO God must think hunting is OK -- he designed nature around it. What about animal cruelty? Do animals that starve or thirst to death suffer? What about being eaten by a wolf or bear? I’d guess yes – a little pain is involved.

What I feel and what I reason on this subject are at opposite poles. As much as I’ve tried I can’t pull them closer. I’m “saddened” to see a horse euthanized but “reason” that in the scope of nature it’s inconsequential. And that saddens me more.Maybe the issue is your definition of "perfect".

Here's how the world is: Everything that lives dies. Animals eat other living things in order to continue living. If you believe in God, you may want to consider that this is part of God's "perfection".

As humans, we can strive to minimize the cruelty of our actions in the world. Like the jerk said, it's what separates us from the animals.

There's a world of difference between a fox killing a rabbit for food, or even a baby bird starving on the ground, and a man driving a racehorse so hard that she breaks both of her legs.

We've got lots of choices - We can be vegetarians, or even vegans. We can keep kosher (it's not just about separating milk & meat - it's a system of behavior designed to minimize cruelty to the animals we use for food.) We can not hunt. We can not use animals for sport.

[benb]

What is more humane... to hunt an animal that runs free most of it's life and eat it?

Or to lock it up from the day it's born, feed it crap it wouldn't eat if given the choice, pump it full of antibiotics so it doesn't get sick, make it stand in it's own sh*t all day.. and then to kill it with a bolt through the head or by cutting it's neck and letting it bleed?

No difference at all.. about the only thing that makes any sense to me is to not gorge on meat every meal as the American dietary norm seems to be. But to eat some meat is natural.. and it really doesn't matter how it gets there.

[keno]

I've been out all day, much on the new TT bike I'm happy to say, and returned to see that you haven't defended your opinion as to why Eight Belles's jockey should be banned. I'm disappointed. You typically have much more to offer than silence.

keno

[Karin Kirk]

What is more humane... to hunt an animal that runs free most of it's life and eat it?

Or to lock it up from the day it's born, feed it crap it wouldn't eat if given the choice, pump it full of antibiotics so it doesn't get sick, make it stand in it's own sh*t all day.. and then to kill it with a bolt through the head or by cutting it's neck and letting it bleed?

No difference at all.. about the only thing that makes any sense to me is to not gorge on meat every meal as the American dietary norm seems to be. But to eat some meat is natural.. and it really doesn't matter how it gets there.

Yes of course it matters! Consumers have a choice if they want to support industries that are built upon animal suffering. There are ways around this. The simplest way is not to eat so-called industrial meat, meaning anything that isn't specifically labeled as free-range, cage-free, grass fed/finished, etc. I think hunting is fine too, as long as hunting is done sensitively and the meat is used for food.

I totally agree that Americans eat way too much meat. I get your point there. But I wanted to add that the origin of the meat certainly is a factor that everyone can think about and act on.

[Elefantino]

Late to this thread, but consider:

— All of the Derby entrants were descendants of Native Dancer.

— Native Dancer's progeny have shown genetic disposition toward weak forelegs. Think Barbaro.

— The filly had Native Dancer genes on both sides.

You can read about the inbreeding in this story (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120968356843561083-tMOh6md5tsfD_6m4voaXNyFGS0M_20080601.html?mod=tff_ main_tff_top) by the Wall Street Journal. (Which, ironically, we put on our front page.)

Inbreeding among European royalty in the gilded age yielded rampant hemophelia. Inbreeding among race horses in the 21st century is yielding, well, now you know,

[Tobias]

The simplest way is not to eat so-called industrial meat, meaning anything that isn't specifically labeled as free-range, cage-free, grass fed/finished, etc.Karin, I have no doubt you are correct – what you describe is more humane to the animals.

However, if animals are raised the way they are, it’s highly likely (I’d guess certain) that it’s because it is cheaper – lower cost. And that begs the question; can everyone afford the higher cost meats if raised more humanely? And if not, is that humane to the poor who won’t have access?

Given a choice I’d prefer the free range animals you describe but don’t know what cost upcharge it entails. Do you, and if so, will you share? Also, could we feed all Americans that way? Is land use efficiency the same?

[Karin Kirk]

Karin, I have no doubt you are correct – what you describe is more humane to the animals.

However, if animals are raised the way they are, it’s highly likely (I’d guess certain) that it’s because it is cheaper – lower cost. And that begs the question; can everyone afford the higher cost meats if raised more humanely? And if not, is that humane to the poor who won’t have access?

Given a choice I’d prefer the free range animals you describe but don’t know what cost upcharge it entails. Do you, and if so, will you share? Also, could we feed all Americans that way? Is land use efficiency the same?

Yes, of course it is more expensive to raise animals the old fashioned way. The meat I buy probably costs twice as much as regular meat. And I have the perfect answer to the rest of your questions. The solution is to eat half as much meat, and buy meat that costs twice as much. It's a win-win proposal because that's a healthier diet and the animals get a good deal too. :)

Also it's worth noting that the land efficiency of grass-fed beef is likely better than corn-fed beef because far fewer resources go into supporting a grassy pasture than to growing corn and running a feedlot. A common statistic is that it takes 2500 gallons of water to produce one pound of feedlot beef. That's because of the water it takes to grow the corn. Amazing, isn't it?

Back on topic, I am glad to see quite a bit of news coverage today about the poor racehorses. There has got to be public pressure to change things.

[keno]

scratched

[benb]

Yah.. the corn fed beef may only work because of corn subsidies.

But there are a lot of issues with giant herds of cattle running across the west/midwest eating all the grass too! Really the only thing that may work is reducing our meat consumption. The stats on how many people could eat on the vegetarian food our cattle eat is fairly amazing. Feed the people instead of the cattle and you can feed a lot more people.

The inbreeding is fascinating.. both dog & horse breeders seem to run into inbreeding over and over...