how does a STEEL frame become DEAD....?

[AgilisMerlin]

I have wondered this for years, but never even thought about posting the question.............


Is this a myth..................


curious....................?


when is a steel frame played, or is it ?

at what point does a steel frame become disposable ?

[e-RICHIE]

you take it out of the effing market and it dies atmo.



JOE GILLES- "You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures. You used to be big."

NORMA- "I am big, it's the pictures that got small."

[vaxn8r]

Accorrding to the pros they get "soft" after a couple of months. I kinda think they just like new bikes.

[saab2000]

I have wondered this for years, but never even thought about posting the question.............


Is this a myth..................


curious....................?


when is a steel frame played, or is it ?

at what point does a steel frame become disposable ?


The only steel frame I ever had that became disposable was my Peugeot - not the main one, but mine further down, the crappy pic. (http://serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16438&highlight=peugeot) . It started to actually get kinda seriously rusty and I finally had enough other bikes (steel of course) that I finally chucked in the metal recycling here. (http://www.klaeui.opel.ch/agences/page41100.cfm?lang=de&idgarage=CH0056)

Rode it for about 15 years. Steel basically lasts as long as you want to keep the bike.

[e-RICHIE]

Accorrding to the pros they get "soft" after a couple of months. I kinda think they just like new bikes.
the pros or the frames?
that's so weird.
constant use/abuse will make a frame joint hardened atmo
and in my mind it's impossible for the frame to lose life by
going soft. any reliable rider will love that same exact 'soft'
frame repainted, new wheels, and some clean 'bar tapemo.

frames don't go soft, and nobody paid me to say that atmo.

[David Kirk]

Put fresh wheels on it and "VIOLA". The frame got undead.

dave

[Fixed]

when it says 5500 or 5900 on it
cheers

[flux]

the pros or the frames?
that's so weird.
constant use/abuse will make a frame joint hardened atmo
and in my mind it's impossible for the frame to lose life by
going soft. any reliable rider will love that same exact 'soft'
frame repainted, new wheels, and some clean 'bar tapemo.

frames don't go soft, and nobody paid me to say that atmo.



i've had some lamo carbon cheap monocoque thingy's go soft and i don't think it was my imagination. that's why i like the metal bikes most.

[Erik.Lazdins]

the pros or the frames?
that's so weird.
constant use/abuse will make a frame joint hardened atmo
and in my mind it's impossible for the frame to lose life by
going soft. any reliable rider will love that same exact 'soft'
frame repainted, new wheels, and some clean 'bar tapemo.

frames don't go soft, and nobody paid me to say that atmo.


cool quote - really cool

[shinomaster]

i've had some lamo carbon cheap monocoq thingy's go soft and i don't think it was my imagination. that's why i like the metal bikes most.


You just had one cock? That's your problem Flux.

[saab2000]

That's your problem Flux. You just had one cock.

And you? You have more than one?

[Cary Ford]

Steel goes dead when one morning you open the door to your bike room and instead of your beautiful frame find a pile of shavings and a suicide note.

[shinomaster]

And you? You have more than one?


Ummm....I'll get back to you on that.

[AgilisMerlin]

this is a serious question:

richard: "constant use/abuse will make a frame joint hardened atmo


and i don't mean to be picking hairs, but does a steel tube over time lose a characteristic because of use,flex,external rusting........

i have seen photos from frameforum where the lugs(unused aging in the elements)

is a steel frame abhorrent to cosmetic aging.............but not structurally ?

[e-RICHIE]

Steel goes dead when one morning you open the door to your bike room and instead of your beautiful frame find a pile of shavings and a suicide note.
doode -
see Sunset Boulevard again...
we all end up in the fukignc pool atmo.

[DarrenCT]

im documenting my usage on my new kirk. total time is 50 hours. at what point does it become dead?

[Brian Smith]

(Campag/Shimano/Whatever) comes out with a new group, and then...
"Honey, it's the wierdest thing...my one favorite bike, you know the one, well, it's not that I'm looking for anything new, but....it's dead!"

[fiamme red]

Yes, steel frames, if ridden hard enough, eventually go soft (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=classicrendezvous.10205.0566.e ml). :rolleyes:

[dwightskin]

Richard Schwinn discusses this in a VERY long interview with Giorgina Terry.

http://www.terrybicycles.com/seminar.html

Basically:

1) Riders get stronger and could flex the frame more - the stronger they get, the softer the frame feels
2) The very best riders get new bikes every year. And sell the old ones. And so they buy into the "frame is soft" idea.

But there is no actual metallurgical change. Actually, if anything it would get stiffer (work harden).

[AgilisMerlin]

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22It%27s+still+breathing+% 28the+horse%29%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D

snipped:

In a message dated 5/10/02 9:12:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
B2Barnard(AT)aol.com writes:

<< I actually thought that I could add value in the identification of the
parameters and target values that decide any differences between a 1970s
bicycle and a 2002 bicycle. For the record it is possible to do so but it
takes time and a desire to make the identification materialize. >>

At risk of putting my foot in it, I think eRitchie already conceded that if
you really wanted to spread the back end to 130, and put on all modern
equipment, and spend the time to get it to work, you could race competitively
on an older frame. A couple of other points to consider:
1) Frames have a working life. Better frames last longer, but will eventually
go soft if ridden hard enough by a strong enough rider. How many miles are on
that old puppy and do you want to put it "past it's prime" by riding it to
death? At a certain point, old horses are put out to pasture. Doesn't mean
you can't ride them, just not in the Kentucky Derby.
2) Wheel compatibility. If you don't run the same wheels as everyone else on
your team...
3) There is some competitive advantage in equipment. If Merckx were riding
now, he would be riding the latest stuff, like his competitors. The lore I
heard when Merckx was in his prime was that on any given day, he was 1 to 2
freewheel gear teeth stronger than anyone else in the pack. Even with that
strength advantage, someone who wanted to win as much as he did, would not
give away any advantage no matter how slight.
To digress a little, the difference between Eddie's hour record and Moser's
wasn't just equipment. It was training. Moser trained with the guy who
"invented" (I use the word loosely) the idea of target heart rate over time
to develop fitness. I have a book by him called "Moser's Hour Records, a
Human and Scientific Adventure" by Francesco Conconi, translated by Patricia
Ennis. It's very interesting reading on the subject of scientific,
quantifiable training.
4) Fit and proper position on the bike are probably more important than
parts. If you're going to race, you really need a good position and a frame
that allows you to get that position.

It boil down to: do whatever you like. If you want to race an old frame and
parts, go for it. When it holds you back, do something about it. It's a
journey in learning. I started building frames because they were all SL and I
was too strong (then) and am still too big (6'2" but not as strong) for an
all SL frame. FYI, I raced as a category B, sometimes A, when it was the ABLA
and we had our nationals when everyone else had world's. When I came back to
racing, I would have had to ride with the 4s and didn't feel suicidal enough
for that. Now that I'm old enough I may race Vets.
As an artistic type with a "princess and the pea complex" (that means I can
feel and describe in detail "subjective" things that most people don't
notice) I have a lot of respect for the experience of someone on his way to
being a "master." The old guild tradition was, and still is, 4 years as an
apprentice to make journeyman. Journeyman means you're good enough to make a
living at it without necessarily being dangerous. If you have what it takes,
and you apply yourself, in 20 or so years you MAY end up as a master. That
doesn't mean you're done learning, and if you don't have passion and
dedication, you won't get there. Some masters know a whole lot more than
others. I also have respect for the scientific method but there is more than
science involved, there is "art" involved. Science is valid, but does not
trump art. If some aspect of art is disproved by science, then art changes,
hence "state-of-the-art" evolves. Of the two, I personally weigh art more
heavily and keep it leavened with science. Time to listen for the sound of
one hand clapping and meditate on the thought that "to out-do the master is
to repay the debt." That's art.
Stevan Thomas
Alameda, CA

[shinomaster]

im documenting my usage on my new kirk. total time is 50 hours. at what point does it become dead?


WHen you ride while intoxicated and wrap it around a tree.

[gone]

im documenting my usage on my new kirk. total time is 50 hours. at what point does it become dead?
50 hours? It's already shot. Send it to me.

[AgilisMerlin]

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22It%27s+still+breathing+% 28the+horse%29%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D

on 05/10/2002 11:19 PM, NortonMarg(AT)aol.com at NortonMarg(AT)aol.com wrote:


> 1) Frames have a working life. Better frames last longer, but will eventually
> go soft if ridden hard enough by a strong enough rider.


Hogwash!

This is a fallacy.

I refer you to the following articles:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/section-43.html

[DarrenCT]

50 hours? It's already shot. Send it to me.

pm sent

its a 57x41.69

does this fit u?

[Peter P.]

24+ years old, a couple of holes-my frame is neither soft nor dead yet.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2090/2344605656_926ef38a51_m.jpg

[stevep]

im documenting my usage on my new kirk. total time is 50 hours. at what point does it become dead?

50 1/2 hrs.

i'll buy it off you for $200,
im like a charity..all the good miles gone already

s

frames last a long time/ steel that is
the old vitus aluminum had a pretty short life span.

good carbon bikes seem to last fine.
i have some 4 yr old team bikes from Time that are still being ridden and raced hard. none are worse for wear. all still being used.

all carbon bikes are not good carbon bikes...you decide.

[fungusamungus33]

(Campag/Shimano/Whatever) comes out with a new group, and then...
"Honey, it's the wierdest thing...my one favorite bike, you know the one, well, it's not that I'm looking for anything new, but....it's dead!"

...I agree with Mr. Smith. When I have the $$$$ that's when my "old" stuff gets worn out.

I can tell you guys the truth because my wife doesn't read the forum....and Smith won't tell on me either.

CCB

[Ti Designs]

Basically:

1) Riders get stronger and could flex the frame more - the stronger they get, the softer the frame feels
2) The very best riders get new bikes every year. And sell the old ones. And so they buy into the "frame is soft" idea.




1) I stopped gaining strength 20 years ago, now I'm just gaining weight. The difference between being a 120 pound skinny kid and a 160 pound fat adult can be felt at the bottom bracket - I'm not saying the frame has gone soft.

2) Some of the very worst do the same. And so they buy into the "it must be the bike's fault" idea.


Oddly enough, I have had two of my winter fixed gears go soft on me. The first one was my Miyata which I loved. After five tough new england winters of training it got soft as soon as the truck hit me. My Giordana went twice as long before it started making some weird sounds when I tried to go fast (Note: I said "tried", I never really went fast). The paint fell off the bottom third of the bike and little spike-like rust crystals started to grow from the bottom bracket. When I retired the bike and pulled the parts off, one of the chainstays broke at the bottom bracket lug as I was pulling the BB.

I've had non-steel bikes go soft - does that count? When I was a junior (125 pounds, 5'10" tall, 2nd best climber on my team on a good day) I raced on a Vitus 979. The only proof I have that it was getting soft was that when I got out of the saddle I couldn't push too hard with the right side or it would shift into the big ring. Not so long ago I had my Seven Odonata go soft. I was in a crash which broke one of the carbon seat stays, but I think the real damage was done during the repair. I have no numbers to show the frame was soft, I was just slower than normal on that bike and back to my old self when testing out any other bike. I would say it was a mental thing, but having no working brain cells I don't see how that could be.

[gone]

pm sent

its a 57x41.69

does this fit u?
Should be perfect though I might need to put a long stem on it. Here's a photo of me getting ready for a ride. Note that I hadn't put my helmet on yet (I always wear one!):

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/ghsmith54/orangutan2.jpg

[DarrenCT]

Should be perfect though I might need to put a long stem on it. Here's a photo of me getting ready for a ride. Note that I hadn't put my helmet on yet (I always wear one!):

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/ghsmith54/orangutan2.jpg


almost spilled my coffee


good job :D

[chrisroph]

ask fat robert

[barry1021]

could do it too

[Fat Robert]

ask fat robert


punk ass bmx jagoff comes out from behind a car = dead steel frame

that blue frame may yet live again...kirk is gonna check it out...or i may get this bizzaro unridden prototype for a bike that was never mass produced that is in some importer's warehouse...we'll see....

[chrisroph]

punk ass bmx jagoff comes out from behind a car = dead steel frame

that blue frame may yet live again...kirk is gonna check it out...or i may get this bizzaro unridden prototype for a bike that was never mass produced that is in some importer's warehouse...we'll see....

thought you were going to simplify and do with less? not something i'm any good at....

[Fat Robert]

thought you were going to simplify and do with less? not something i'm any good at....

yeah

was gonna cut down to my road, my cross, my fixed

i'm selling the cross -- cutting down to two road, one fixed.

road is better than cross

there

i said it

[jimcav]

And you? You have more than one?
think it was dana carvey

[Tobias]

how does a STEEL frame become DEAD....?

.......snipped........
Is this a myth..................If you want the correct answer go back to fundamentals.
Beyond rust and cracks, what can change in steel under normal use?
Question: Do myths grow in the absence of proper science and engineering? :rolleyes:

Myths like this exist because some claim they can feel a difference.
And when it’s someone who races and/or has credibility for some unknown reason,
it becomes impossible to disprove that they can’t possibly feel it.

[taylorj]

Trying read through all this stuff and not get busted at work is a challenge sometimes. So I saw the title and thought, "How does a steel frame become your Dad"? Hmmm? :confused:

I have NEVER had a steel frame feel dead. My Ibis Mojo is a 1995 and it rides like a champ. I have however ridden carbon frames---expensive ones, that feel dead after 30 miles. Steel and Ti retain their lively ride for as long as I have owned them. :D

[Chad Engle]

When a steel frame becomes dead, can it still plane?

[palincss]

A couple of other points to consider:
1) Frames have a working life. Better frames last longer, but will eventually
go soft if ridden hard enough by a strong enough rider. How many miles are on
that old puppy and do you want to put it "past it's prime" by riding it to
death? At a certain point, old horses are put out to pasture. Doesn't mean
you can't ride them, just not in the Kentucky Derby.


You make the assertion, but offer no evidence. What we know about metallurgy suggests old, used frames would get harder , not softer, from work hardening. What principle is at work that would lead to softening?

Time to call in Myth Busters, I think.

[e-RICHIE]

You make the assertion, but offer no evidence. What we know about metallurgy suggests old, used frames would get harder , not softer, from work hardening. What principle is at work that would lead to softening?

Time to call in Myth Busters, I think.
palincss gets it (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=538280&postcount=5) atmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

You make the assertion, but offer no evidence. What we know about metallurgy suggests old, used frames would get harder , not softer, from work hardening. What principle is at work that would lead to softening?

Time to call in Myth Busters, I think.

check my post boyo,

i just supplied a link to someone else assuming this statement

i asked the question, but have no answers.......those were links to others opinions

[AgilisMerlin]

as shown above: page 2 snipped........... ?

fiamme grabbed this link:

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22It%27s+still+breathing+% 28the+horse%29%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D

and i just snipped responses from it:

not my opinion

snipped:

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22It%27s+still+breathing+% 28the+horse%29%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D

:D

[e-RICHIE]

i think it's a mythmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

so since the subject was brought up.......

how does steel get harder/stronger with age ?

with 853 they stated the material was actually stronger. I assume this is not the case with all tubesets. So:

Is it because of the heating/bonding,

Is it because of aging,

Is it because of stressing.... ?

Curious,

i am not trying to call anyone out on this, just thinking it through ?

[e-RICHIE]

so since the subject was brought up.......

how does steel get harder/stronger with age ?

with 853 they stated the material was actually stronger. I assume this is not the case with all tubesets. So:

Is it because of the heating/bonding,

Is it because of aging,

Is it because of stressing.... ?

Curious,

i am not trying to call anyone out on this, just thinking it through ?
smarter cats than myself (me?) will give you the tech speakmo.
but when you bend metal back and forth on itself you are gonna
work harden the area. but even though frames are sprinted upon
and used hard for years, it's not analagous to getting the coat
hanger and going mental on it. i oftrn wonder why folks assume
the worst in these discussions. bicycles are so fukincg overdesigned
for what they are asked to do that the bs about stuff like 853 is
just that. no one is gonna know if their frame is 853, or 853 with
953 stays, or any combination thereof. and for the first cat that
can tell me he feels the pipe or the brand of pipe i'll get out the
knee pads and take a request atmo.

[swoop]

we should do a lame myths about biking and racing started in belgium thread.

[e-RICHIE]

we should do a lame myths about biking and racing started in belgium thread.
i'll start.
all riders are cleanmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

Belgian beers on me, literally :D

[Pete Serotta]

I think I will go with what Richard and David says - - between the two of them they must have over 50 years of hands on experience.
;) especially since I am not a CAT 1 racer in the Peloton. New wheels and even new tires make a world of differnence (unless frame is cracked somewhere) :D

[swoop]

strain hardening!

[Elefantino]

no one is gonna know if their frame is 853, or 853 with
953 stays, or any combination thereof. and for the first cat that
can tell me he feels the pipe or the brand of pipe i'll get out the
knee pads and take a request atmo.
The first part begs a semi-serious question: If a customer isn't going to know the difference between high-end tubesets (853 vs. 953, etc), is it strictly an economic choice by the builder and/or an aesthetic choice by the customer?

[e-RICHIE]

The first part begs a semi-serious question: If a customer isn't going to know the difference between high-end tubesets (853 vs. 953, etc), is it strictly an economic choice by the builder and/or an aesthetic choice by the customer?
sure atmo.

[capybaras]

Sometimes they are so messed up you have to euthanize them right on the track.

[Too Tall]

Should be perfect though I might need to put a long stem on it. Here's a photo of me getting ready for a ride. Note that I hadn't put my helmet on yet (I always wear one!):

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/ghsmith54/orangutan2.jpg

Spittin' image of my dear dead dad. Sigh. He had that same mole.

[Fixed]

smarter cats than myself (me?) will give you the tech speakmo.
but when you bend metal back and forth on itself you are gonna
work harden the area. but even though frames are sprinted upon
and used hard for years, it's not analagous to getting the coat
hanger and going mental on it. i oftrn wonder why folks assume
the worst in these discussions. bicycles are so fukincg overdesigned
for what they are asked to do that the bs about stuff like 853 is
just that. no one is gonna know if their frame is 853, or 853 with
953 stays, or any combination thereof. and for the first cat that
can tell me he feels the pipe or the brand of pipe i'll get out the
knee pads and take a request atmo.
the word imho
cheers
if i am happy i can't even tell if it's steel or alum or ti but i'm very dumb

[Sandy]

Some years ago, I was seriously considering purchasing a Spectrum bike (prior to my first Serotta-1998). I read the Spectrum website over many times. It appeared to me that Tom Kellogg favored titanaium over steel as a frame buiding material and as I was interested in a steel bike, I opted not to go with a Spectrum bike. In his website (still there) he states that steel bikes will fatigue and rust whereas titanium bikes will not fatigue or rust (see the Frame Materials section of the Knowledge Base category). I believe that I read some comments Tom Kellogg gave relative to that elsewhere too (a forum?).

Several years ago I met a gentleman who did work in the Manhattan Project. He actually invented (may have had help) a new compound to use in the cooling process of the reactors. He stated that all metals fatigue- some faster than others.

So perhaps steel bikes do actually fatigue enough with enough useage to make a genuine difference in perception by some. This might be true for strong riders who put in high mileage.

I think the above differs from some of the master builders opinions here like Dave Kirk and Spencer's Daddy. Steel fatigue over time producing a softer feel??


:) Soft Steel Serotta Sandy :)

[Fixed]

bro the one thing i can tell is a steel fork they talk to me
cheers

[Elefantino]

bro the one thing i can tell is a steel fork they talk to me
cheers
Yes. Descending at 50+ on a steel fork and it says, "are you freaking kidding me?"

[AgilisMerlin]

Yes. Descending at 50+ on a steel fork and it says, "are you freaking kidding me?"


what ?

[Elefantino]

I have done the Hogpen Gap drop on the same bike, once with a steel (SLX) fork and once with an Easton. The SLX was way, way too noodly for me. When I look down and see a fork bending with the road, it makes me noivous. The Easton was dead on.

Maybe it's my riding style. YMMV.

[e-RICHIE]

I have done the Hogpen Gap drop on the same bike, once with a steel (SLX) fork and once with an Easton. The SLX was way, way too noodly for me. When I look down and see a fork bending with the road, it makes me noivous. The Easton was dead on.

Maybe it's my riding style. YMMV.
there was never an slx fork blade atmo.

[sailorboy]

the pros or the frames?
that's so weird.
constant use/abuse will make a frame joint hardened atmo
and in my mind it's impossible for the frame to lose life by
going soft. any reliable rider will love that same exact 'soft'
frame repainted, new wheels, and some clean 'bar tapemo.

frames don't go soft, and nobody paid me to say that atmo.
Like this stub?...

[RPS]

.......snipped.........
So perhaps steel bikes do actually fatigue enough with enough useage to make a genuine difference in perception by some. This might be true for strong riders who put in high mileage.

I think the above differs from some of the master builders opinions here like Dave Kirk and Spencer's Daddy. Steel fatigue over time producing a softer feel??


:) Soft Steel Serotta Sandy :)IMO that’s not going to happen in the real world unless a guy is riding a bike he shouldn’t be riding – or one that is poorly designed and/or fabricated. Steel has a fatigue limit or endurance limit (think of a minimum stress) that must be exceeded before any fatigue takes place; and since most steel frames are so overbuilt, they can be used under normal conditions for millions of cycles – or more if you prefer.

By the way, what do you think would happen to the steel springs in your car if usage made them get soft? According to your theory the steel springs would become softer and the car would waddle? Maybe after 100,000 miles the car would be dragging the ground because the springs are too soft?

[RPS]

smarter cats than myself (me?) will give you the tech speakmo.
but when you bend metal back and forth on itself you are gonna
work harden the area. but even though frames are sprinted upon
and used hard for years, it's not analagous to getting the coat
hanger and going mental on it. i oftrn wonder why folks assume
the worst in these discussions. bicycles are so fukincg overdesigned
for what they are asked to do that the bs about stuff like 853 is
just that. no one is gonna know if their frame is 853, or 853 with
953 stays, or any combination thereof. and for the first cat that
can tell me he feels the pipe or the brand of pipe i'll get out the
knee pads and take a request atmo.Riders normally flex the steel tubes of their bikes within their elastic range (below the yield stress). Unless flexed so severely as to cause fatigue, it can be repeated without change. Each time the load is removed the frame will return (flex back) to the same exact shape as before.

The coat hanger example requires bending the wire beyond the elastic range (i.e. – the bend is permanent). No one I know bends their steel frames permanently, right? So you are correct in that these two things are not analogous -- according to my opinion.

[Steve Hampsten]

never goes out of style, imho

snicol's opus (http://ibiscycles.com/tech/materials_101/2/?PHPSESSID=1670b179fd4f10551da5bf1501ab0a21)

you can draw our own conclusions, as i have, but steel frames, historically, do not fail, weaken, or soften - it doesn't happen.

they get driven into garages and hit by cars; occasionally submerged in salt water/sweat. the results are predictable.

as a manufacturer i recommend that a welded steel frame be replaced after ten years of hard use. just because, but it won't break.

[Sandy]

".....a well made steel frame can last for years but over time it will fatigue and rust..." from Spectrum bicycle website.

I guess that most here are basically saying that steel bikes are built so well that the limited number of cycles they go through is not sufficient to cause fatigue. I would wonder what an engineer/physicist might say about that.


:) Old, stressed, fatigued, and steel as in Steel Serotta Sandy :)

[Tom Matchak]

".....a well made steel frame can last for years but over time it will fatigue and rust..." from Spectrum bicycle website.

I guess that most here are basically saying that steel bikes are built so well that the limited number of cycles they go through is not sufficient to cause fatigue. I would wonder what an engineer/physicist might say about that.


This engineer says that, yes, (most) steel bicycles do not see stresses in excess of the fatigue limit, and will not suffer from fatigue failures. This reflects the fundamental relationship between the material's elastic modulus and it's strength. In a steel bike frame, by the time that you've made it stiff enough to offer the ride quality most riders desire, there's more material than what you'd need just for strength considerations. Being "overbuilt" in this way, (most) steel frames experience relatively low internal stresses, below the level at which steel can endure an infinite (materials science terminology) number of elastic-strain stress cycles without a so-called fatigue failure.

Note that I say (most) steel bicycles. I'm speaking about traditional frame designs and tube dimensions/wall thicknesses. I can't speak in absolutes for ALL steel frames, particularly those using uber-diameter/uber-thin tubes. But then, those are probably throw-away frames anyway.

I also need to note that fatigue resistance is a real phenomena, and has nothing to do with the silly notion about steel frames "going soft". No amount of riding is going to change the elastic modulus of the steel. If you want to tell your wife that your beloved frame isn't stiff anymore and beg for her permission to buy a new one, then OK give it a try. But, when you folks are talking bike-tech to fellow bike=tech-heads, please STOP REPEATING THIS BULL**** ABOUT STEEL FRAMES GOING SOFT. No matter how many times the marketing guys make that claim, and no matter how many times it is repeated by liberal arts majors, it just ain't true.

My appologies to anyone I may have offended.

Cheers,
Tom

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped> If you want to tell your wife that your beloved frame isn't stiff anymore and beg for her permission to buy a new one, then OK give it a try. But, when you folks are talking bike-tech to fellow bike=tech-heads, please STOP REPEATING THIS BULL**** ABOUT STEEL FRAMES GOING SOFT. No matter how many times the marketing guys make that claim, and no matter how many times it is repeated by liberal arts majors, it just ain't true.
Tompedia 14.1 atmo -

[Sandy]

This engineer says that, yes, (most) steel bicycles do not see stresses in excess of the fatigue limit, and will not suffer from fatigue failures. This reflects the fundamental relationship between the material's elastic modulus and it's strength. In a steel bike frame, by the time that you've made it stiff enough to offer the ride quality most riders desire, there's more material than what you'd need just for strength considerations. Being "overbuilt" in this way, (most) steel frames experience relatively low internal stresses, below the level at which steel can endure an infinite (materials science terminology) number of elastic-strain stress cycles without a so-called fatigue failure.

Note that I say (most) steel bicycles. I'm speaking about traditional frame designs and tube dimensions/wall thicknesses. I can't speak in absolutes for ALL steel frames, particularly those using uber-diameter/uber-thin tubes. But then, those are probably throw-away frames anyway.

I also need to note that fatigue resistance is a real phenomena, and has nothing to do with the silly notion about steel frames "going soft". No amount of riding is going to change the elastic modulus of the steel. If you want to tell your wife that your beloved frame isn't stiff anymore and beg for her permission to buy a new one, then OK give it a try. But, when you folks are talking bike-tech to fellow bike=tech-heads, please STOP REPEATING THIS BULL**** ABOUT STEEL FRAMES GOING SOFT. No matter how many times the marketing guys make that claim, and no matter how many times it is repeated by liberal arts majors, it just ain't true.

My appologies to anyone I may have offended.

Cheers,
Tom

All I was doing was to quote from the website of an extremely well respected builder who is clearly one of the master builders (and designers and fitters). It should not have been construed that I said that steel frames get soft as I don't know much about such. I recently bought a new bike- the Coeur D' Acier- with an all steel rear. So my bike of choice was an all steel one. Softness or fatigue was not a consideration to me. I actually think that I am going to like the bike even better than my Ottrott ST, my other bike. Please don't categorize me as one who is trying to talk bike-tech to those who really are experts in that arena. I quoted someone who is tremendously respected in designing, building, and fitting bicycles, as I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was giving a possible contrary view. Is that not a reasonable thing to do? As I have started to read more on it, fatigue is not what I would consider softness anyway.

Soft Sandy

[Tobias]

All I was doing was to quote from the website of an extremely well respected builder who is clearly one of the master builders (and designers and fitters).The problem is that many people assume that a guy who builds nice frames must be more than a talented craftsman/artist. He may be an excellent engineer also, but making the assumption that bike builders know about engineering is like assuming that engineers can build nice bikes.

These are two different skill sets that may or may not be possessed by a single individual.

This is not meant to offend engineers or bike builders. We need both, just in different ways.

[vaxn8r]

....No matter how many times the marketing guys make that claim, and no matter how many times it is repeated by liberal arts majors, it just ain't true.

My appologies to anyone I may have offended.

Cheers,
Tom
I tried to find sources but couldn't. I remember hearing pros say that stuff all the time regarding their steel bikes...not the marketing guys (maybe they are the same though). They all had to have new bikes...not that I ever believed it. I found it a little amusing because in that one tiny regard, that made 'em just like me...or vice versa :)

[Tom Matchak]

<snipped> All I was doing was to quote from the website of an extremely well respected builder who is clearly one of the master builders (and designers and fitters). It should not have been construed that I said that steel frames get soft .... Please don't categorize me as one who is trying to talk bike-tech to those who really are experts in that arena. I quoted someone who is tremendously respected in designing, building, and fitting bicycles, as I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was giving a possible contrary view. Is that not a reasonable thing to do? As I have started to read more on it, fatigue is not what I would consider softness anyway.
Soft Sandy

Sandy,

I'm sorry, I did not intend to categorize you in any such way. I saw your question as a sincere one, simply asking about possible opposing views to a claim that you found on a respected website. I started out by offering that other point of view.

I've been following this thread, watching posts bounce between science and folklore, but I hadn't yet chimed in. It was poor form on my part to append my little rant to my response to your specific question, and thereby seeming to direct it at you. I should have put my "you folks" commments into a separate post. My appologies to you, Sandy.

Cheers,
Tom

[dannyg1]

Yeah, and what have you got against us ex-Liberal Art majors? ;) We put together the best looking bikes!

Danny

Sandy,

I'm sorry, I did not intend to categorize you in any such way. I saw your question as a sincere one, simply asking about possible opposing views to a claim that you found on a respected website. I started out by offering that other point of view.

I've been following this thread, watching posts bounce between science and folklore, but I hadn't yet chimed in. It was poor form on my part to append my little rant to my response to your specific question, and thereby seeming to direct it at you. I should have put my "you folks" commments into a separate post. My appologies to you, Sandy.

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Matchak]

<snipped> I tried to find sources but couldn't.
Sources: Go to any University School of Engineering and take the courses in materials science and structural analysis. Spend 30 years in industry as an engineer. Apply to bicycles that which is common knowledge about the properties and performance of steel, learned from a world of other applications. Hop on a bicycle and deny all of this.

I'm sorry, that is a snarky answer to what was probably a sincere comment. But it's an honest answer. Maybe blame it on the internet, but so often we're seeing that any comment posted online by socially-anointed gurus is accepted as a "source", even when it contains claims which clearly contradict known science. There's also lots of crap posted by folks who should know better, so I guess we all need to find "experts" to trust. Personally, just because a guy is a racer, or even a master frame builder, I'm not inclined to automatically assume that he's also proficient in the details of materials science.

LIke I said above, if saying "My steel frame has gone soft" is what it takes to score a new bike, then good for you. Apparently it works for racers, whose team/sponsor isn't in the game to bet on that being BS. But, as an engineer, I'll take that bet.

Cheers,
Tom

[Sandy]

Sandy,

I'm sorry, I did not intend to categorize you in any such way. I saw your question as a sincere one, simply asking about possible opposing views to a claim that you found on a respected website. I started out by offering that other point of view.

I've been following this thread, watching posts bounce between science and folklore, but I hadn't yet chimed in. It was poor form on my part to append my little rant to my response to your specific question, and thereby seeming to direct it at you. I should have put my "you folks" commments into a separate post. My appologies to you, Sandy.

Cheers,
Tom

Certainly no need whatsoever to apologize. I have just found that posters sometimes totally misconstrue what other posters say on the forum and often somehow seem to react to a post in a manner that simply is totally incongruent with what the poster meant or said.

I appreciate your genuine comments.


Sandy

[vaxn8r]

Sources: Go to any University School of Engineering and take the courses in materials science and structural analysis. Spend 30 years in industry as an engineer. Apply to bicycles that which is common knowledge about the properties and performance of steel, learned from a world of other applications. Hop on a bicycle and deny all of this.

I'm sorry, that is a snarky answer to what was probably a sincere comment. But it's an honest answer. Maybe blame it on the internet, but so often we're seeing that any comment posted online by socially-anointed gurus is accepted as a "source", even when it contains claims which clearly contradict known science. There's also lots of crap posted by folks who should know better, so I guess we all need to find "experts" to trust. Personally, just because a guy is a racer, or even a master frame builder, I'm not inclined to automatically assume that he's also proficient in the details of materials science.

LIke I said above, if saying "My steel frame has gone soft" is what it takes to score a new bike, then good for you. Apparently it works for racers, whose team/sponsor isn't in the game to bet on that being BS. But, as an engineer, I'll take that bet.

Cheers,
Tom
By sources I meant "folklore" quotations from pros about their bikes, because I remember hearing that all the time when steel was king.

I'm agreeing with you.

[Tobias]

Sources: Go to any University School of Engineering and take the courses in materials science and structural analysis. Spend 30 years in industry as an engineer. Apply to bicycles that which is common knowledge about the properties and performance of steel, learned from a world of other applications. Hop on a bicycle and deny all of this.
.......snipped.........Tom, with all due respect you'll never get the point across to many because "that which is common knowledge" to you and perhaps other engineers is not common knowledge to many.

[Fixed]

Yes. Descending at 50+ on a steel fork and it says, "are you freaking kidding me?"
yeah bro it says is that all you got?

cheers

[AgilisMerlin]

weight weeners have some other idears.....

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42617

[sr51]

If I understand lugged construction correctly, the steel tubes are joined to the lugs using a second type of metal (I've seen mention of brass and silver).

Does this second type of metal play a part in this discussion? Is it possible for riding to apply stresses that don't affect the steel tubes but that do affect the bonding metal? Or asked another way, in the context of lugged steel frames, could 'softening' be a weakening of the bond between the tube and the lug?

I'm not trying to perpetuate myths, just genuinely interested in the topic.

[Steve Hampsten]

Does this second type of metal play a part in this discussion? Is it possible for riding to apply stresses that don't affect the steel tubes but that do affect the bonding metal? Or asked another way, in the context of lugged steel frames, could 'softening' be a weakening of the bond between the tube and the lug?



in a word - no.

i sense a certain grasping of straws here, anything to substantiate that which can't be substantiated and which doesn't exist.

[brians647]

in a word - no.

i sense a certain grasping of straws here, anything to substantiate that which can't be substantiated and which doesn't exist.

Sorry Steve, I have to disagree with you. I didn't get the sense that he was grasping for straws, but asking a pretty pertinent question. We've talked about the primary materials and their properties, and the common wisdom seems to be that they don't go soft. But were all those old school pros full of it? Or did we miss a piece of the puzzle?

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry Steve, I have to disagree with you. I didn't get the sense that he was grasping for straws, but asking a pretty pertinent question. We've talked about the primary materials and their properties, and the common wisdom seems to be that they don't go soft. But were all those old school pros full of it? Or did we miss a piece of the puzzle?
who are all these old school pros atmo?

[AgilisMerlin]

snipped weight weeners:

i think this sums it up, mostly

.................................................. ....

Miller



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 170
Location: Reading, UK
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have had some frames break under me; a few were steel, one was titanium, none were aluminium. My opinion is that the whole 'aluminium frame lifespan limited by fatigue' concept has very little real-life value. Modern frames are more likely to be killed by crash damage. Anyway for the people reading this forum how many keep a frame long enough to test the limits of its natural life?

Nor, by the way, do metal frames 'go spongy' during their life. The material properties don't change, the rider just gets bored of the frame and starts to want something new, better and, of course, stiffer.

[DarrenCT]

\The material properties don't change, the rider just gets bored of the frame and starts to want something new, better and, of course, stiffer.

bingomo

[shinomaster]

who are all these old school pros atmo?


Phil Anderson.

[e-RICHIE]

Phil Anderson.
bulslhit shino atmo.

[Steve Hampsten]

Phil Anderson.


one a control group doth not make

we rest our case

on the one hand you have engineers, metallurgists, and framebuilders saying this can't happen

on the other hand we have some mythical pro racer - never the most credulous of subjects - saying their frame went "soft". these are the same frames hanging in all of our garages and being ridden as fixed gears by hipsters everywhere. who among us has a "soft" frame?

speak up now or forever hold your peace

[dbrk]

Does this second type of metal [used in brazing] play a part in this discussion? Is it possible for riding to apply stresses that don't affect the steel tubes but that do affect the bonding metal? Or asked another way, in the context of lugged steel frames, could 'softening' be a weakening of the bond between the tube and the lug?....

No. There's not the slightest bit of scientific or even quasi-measurable evidence to suggest this could happen. This is an honest question, so let it be known I mean nothing disparaging in reply.

As I see it, heads go soft, not steel frames.

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

As I see it, heads go soft, not steel frames.

dbrk
dbrkpedia 3.18 atmo -

[vaxn8r]

one a control group doth not make

we rest our case

on the one hand you have engineers, metallurgists, and framebuilders saying this can't happen

on the other hand we have some mythical pro racer - never the most credulous of subjects - saying their frame went "soft". these are the same frames hanging in all of our garages and being ridden as fixed gears by hipsters everywhere. who among us has a "soft" frame?

speak up now or forever hold your peace
Steve, come on, talk to your brother. It's one thing to say it ain't true, but are saying you never heard it before...from the pros? I admit I haven't heard it with my own ears but I've read it, more than dozens of times, quotes attributed to this pro or that.

I'm agreeing with you all, but I know what I read 'cause it was in a magazine or 20 atmo

[Steve Hampsten]

Steve, come on, talk to your brother. It's one thing to say it ain't true, but are saying you never heard it before...from the pros? I admit I haven't heard it with my own ears but I've read it, more than dozens of times, quotes attributed to this pro or that.

I'm agreeing with you all, but I know what I read 'cause it was in a magazine or 20 atmo


show me a quote

have you ever actually TALKED to any of these pros? with a few exceptions, family included, they're not always the sharpest pencils in the box. believe what you like, as will i - hey, it's a great country.

[shinomaster]

Buddy boy. I'm not talking from experience, I'm remembering an issue of Winning magazine I have stashed in my Mom's basement in Boston. In one issue they did a pro bike review, and it happened to be the poor Eddy Merckx of Turbo-Stud Phil Anderson. The article, from what I remember 12 years ago, basically stated that Phil could wear out a 9 speed chain after ONE race and a MAX frame after a season. At the time I was 24 and thought myself a complete and total pussy because I couldn't even wear out my shorts. I'm not siding with Phil, I'm just remembering what he said, as an answer to e-Richie's question. I remember pretty well for an art-student.

[confente]

I found this in the archives of the Classic Rendezvous list (a bike collectors forum). Sounds like a first hand account:

"I remember a trip to sunny Italy in the seventies and a
highly anticipated visit to Molteni Arcore. Out behind the warehouse
that housed the team bike spares, etc. (you should have seen the shelves
of wool jerseys with one entire shelf of Molteni jerseys with the worlds
bands on the collar and sleeves reserved for Eddy himself)... anyway out
behind the warehouse was this field of waist high weeds, and in the
middle of this field was a big soggy mound of all these Molteni Orange painted
bike frames, the steel tubes of which were reduced to so much limp pasta
by the herculean efforts of Eddy and his domestics in the previous
season's races."

[3chordwonder]

in the
middle of this field was a big soggy mound of all these Molteni Orange painted
bike frames, the steel tubes of which were reduced to so much limp pasta
by the herculean efforts of Eddy and his domestics in the previous
season's races."

'stored' outside in a field? No wonder they turned to rubble.

Maybe the factory did what I've read some italian supercar manufacturers did to their old race cars, prototypes etc: destroy them (bend them) before leaving them outside, presumably so nobody could take them and sell them on.

[flux]

Buddy boy. I'm not talking from experience, I'm remembering an issue of Winning magazine I have stashed in my Mom's basement in Boston. In one issue they did a pro bike review, and it happened to be the poor Eddy Merckx of Turbo-Stud Phil Anderson. The article, from what I remember 12 years ago, basically stated that Phil could wear out a 9 speed chain after ONE race and a MAX frame after a season. At the time I was 24 and thought myself a complete and total pussy because I couldn't even wear out my shorts. I'm not siding with Phil, I'm just remembering what he said, as an answer to e-Richie's question. I remember pretty well for an art-student.

Could he leap buildings in a single bound too? :p

[El Chaba]

Claudio Chiapucci rode steel frames for most of his career, and was apparently satisfied with them for most of that time-UNTIL Carrera made him a special mountain stage bike from ceramic-aluminum metal matrix. The bike was REALLY light and stiff for the day, and Claudio liked it. The team wanted him to save the special bike for mountain stages, but Claudio wanted to ride it all of the time. So, he said that his steel frames had gone SOFT!*

* Chiapucci is a good guy, even if he is a bit of a character.

[jeffg]

Easy -- when through crashes or neglect you have no choice but to euthanize it on the crit course

[Fixed]

bro you got the masters word what do you want ... my 20 y/o merckx is still
going great
cheers

[AgilisMerlin]

Claudio Chiapucci rode steel frames for most of his career, and was apparently satisfied with them for most of that time-UNTIL Carrera made him a special mountain stage bike from ceramic-aluminum metal matrix. The bike was REALLY light and stiff for the day, and Claudio liked it. The team wanted him to save the special bike for mountain stages, but Claudio wanted to ride it all of the time. So, he said that his steel frames had gone SOFT!*

* Chiapucci is a good guy, even if he is a bit of a character.

Lets not forget that towards his retirement, along with Roche they were riding Ti.............

[AgilisMerlin]

Steve H,

curious and meaning no disrespect to anyones responses - but could you, in time, ask Andy his memories on the concept of steel going soft'


thanks ahead of time

[dbrk]

I think we should ask this guy about the softening of steel frames:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140217303572&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

Now here's a guy with a theory.

dbrk

[AgilisMerlin]

I think we should ask this guy about the softening of steel frames:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140217303572&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

Now here's a guy with a theory.

dbrk


snipped:

"This Discovery is Absolutely Real. I have been told my work is" Absolute Science" and "Very Impressive". It has Shaken my Nervous System due to its Magnitude. The World Should Prepare. Time Travel is Very Close to Reality. I would not Waste Yours or My Time Folks if this were not Real" :D

phil anderson here we come...........

[vaxn8r]

Here's a recollection from a personal conversation with Dave Tesch who was firm believer in the ability to wear out a frame. In his words: "10,000 miles on a bike is like 100,000 miles on a car." I can't recall the words "soft" being mentioned. He felt after 10K miles it was time for a new one...wonder what his motives were?

I don't think anyone here is disrespecting our esteemed builders or engineers. I'm trying not to. I think we're all on the same page. But many of us have recollections of what was a prevalent thought back in at least the 80's if not from before. Most of those old cycling articles are not archived on the net. I've looked. But since many of us lived and breathed on what the pros rode or did or said, I think we can safely say that's where the thoughts or opinions originated.

[William]

Reminds me of when you get a super fast car/truck. At first it feels great. Super acceleration, great cornering, and very lively feel. After a while, it doesn’t feel so fast anymore. What happened? More than likely it’s just as fast as before….you’ve just grown accustomed to what it can do and how it feels. It just doesn’t quite tweak the endorphins like it used to though it’s really the same as it ever was.

Park it for a season and then come back to it. More than likely you’ll get that feeling again.

Ponder.



William

[CarbonCycles]

Interesting thread with lots of POV. I'm wondering if the previous poster's comment regarding joints was more inline with the "softening" of steel.

Let me humbly rephrase their question. Is it possible that the non-homogeneous welds are failing in different modes that give the perception that the steel tubing has gone soft when in reality the welds may have become compromised?

[swoop]

Interesting thread with lots of POV. I'm wondering if the previous poster's comment regarding joints was more inline with the "softening" of steel.

Let me humbly rephrase their question. Is it possible that the non-homogeneous welds are failing in different modes that give the perception that the steel tubing has gone soft when in reality the welds may have become compromised?


no.

[Fixed]

bro I have heard that trek carbons get wimpy after a while
cheers

[e-RICHIE]

sometimes the only answer to the question why? is because atmo.

[zap]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

[Sandy]

Reading this thread is starting to fatigue me. :rolleyes:

Soft Sandy

[gt6267a]

Most of this discussion is theoretical about frames in good condition. In current practice, between frame saver and modern steels, I suppose theory and reality are not so far apart. What about 50 or 100 years ago? Was there a point in time when a one or two or three year old frame, or any frame ridden in the rain, would have some rust? I imagine that before a frame is so rusted as to fail, it is still rideable yet would not behave / feel like new, might feel soft? While not true today, might that have been true in 40’s, 50’s … sometime?

The story of the Molteni frames beaten dead and left to rust in a field … might they not have died to due to being ridden hard, but being putting away wet? Of all people, racers will be out training / racing in wet conditions. Frames of that era might not be the best with rust. Before getting laid to rest in field, I wonder if one those team frames had been cut in half what the inside would reveal.

If what I am speculating about is possible, then it would make sense that people in the era knew and discussed this problem. Its not surprising that once frames were made a little more rust resistant that the memory of frames going soft could remain while the reason for the phenomenon was forgotten and later a new reason created.

Is this possible?

[swoop]

i think there's a process going on that we shrinky types call 'magical thinking'. i know a new frame is like new life for me. it inspires passions in the mind and body. and i know newer sometimes means lighter and stiffer than what was previously lighter and stiffer...

but there is something about the whole thing that invites some magical thinking. i'm not really faster on any one bike or another... but i feel faster and therefore i go faster.

i might be easier to say my bike is fatigued rather than i'm tired of my bike and need to feel something new.

it just comes out as, 'its you, not me'.
....
i have a feeling the wear and tear of transporting a bike all over europe and the usa is harder on the bike than the racing.

[dbrk]

snip...It's not surprising that once frames were made a little more rust resistant that the memory of frames going soft could remain while the reason for the phenomenon was forgotten and later a new reason created.

Is this possible?

No.

I like the Doug Henning photo too, swoop. He belonged to that Farrah Fawcett Mullitt Hair Club that I so admire. Gratefully, I can say I skipped the mullitt stage though I was certainly a candidate, historically speaking.

dbrk

[swoop]

dbrk... are you in socal today? i thought i saw a dbrk bike over coffee this morning in santa monica.

[Kevan]

Reminds me of when you get a super fast car/truck. At first it feels great. Super acceleration, great cornering, and very lively feel. After a while, it doesn’t feel so fast anymore. What happened? More than likely it’s just as fast as before….you’ve just grown accustomed to what it can do and how it feels. It just doesn’t quite tweak the endorphins like it used to though it’s really the same as it ever was.

Park it for a season and then come back to it. More than likely you’ll get that feeling again.

Ponder.



William

Nah...I'm pretty sure it's the car:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/147273520_b0ba5bf617.jpg?v=0

[fiamme red]

The story of the Molteni frames beaten dead and left to rust in a field … might they not have died to due to being ridden hard, but being putting away wet? Of all people, racers will be out training / racing in wet conditions. Frames of that era might not be the best with rust. Before getting laid to rest in field, I wonder if one those team frames had been cut in half what the inside would reveal.That Molteni story? -- well, you can't take everything seriously that you read on the CR list. :rolleyes: ;) :p

[e-RICHIE]

That Molteni story? -- well, you can't take everything seriously that you read on the CR list. :rolleyes: ;) :p
can you say cinelli catalog cover atmo?

[goonster]

i thought i saw a dbrk bike over coffee this morning in santa monica.

Was it an Herse city gentleman? I think there is a semi-famous ex-dbrk bike of that type in that area.

[swoop]

Was it an Herse city gentleman? I think there is a semi-famous ex-dbrk bike of that type in that area.

horse saddle, cursive? logo, nice proprtions on the frame, bar end shifters, luggy, bell on the stem, rapha (too much sag in the shorts), elegant dude that knew where his center was.... clearly spent time on the yoga mat (you can see it in the walk).
not like the others. frankincense, burled wood, musk, mixes colors with whites in the laundry, non-judgmental, etc....

main street, peets coffee, surrounded by women that were curiously hobbit like and fond of the bush, if you know what i mean, not that there's anything wrong with that. had that light about him.

[I Want Sachs?]

snipped:

"This Discovery is Absolutely Real. I have been told my work is" Absolute Science" and "Very Impressive". It has Shaken my Nervous System due to its Magnitude. The World Should Prepare. Time Travel is Very Close to Reality. I would not Waste Yours or My Time Folks if this were not Real" :D

phil anderson here we come...........

Very interesting to worry about wasting time, when this guy can get back all the time by traveling back in time.

[William]

Nah...I'm pretty sure it's the car:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/147273520_b0ba5bf617.jpg?v=0



That reminds me.... remember the Twizzler Mobile over in the Sachs camp at the Cross Nats? "e" certainly has a hot vehicle there. How many Sachs Cross bikes can "e" fit in there????


http://www.jtruck.net/misc/4x4cars/full/4x4yugo.jpg





William :p

[Tom Matchak]

Most of this discussion is theoretical about frames in good condition. In current practice, between frame saver and modern steels, I suppose theory and reality are not so far apart. What about 50 or 100 years ago? Was there a point in time when a one or two or three year old frame, or any frame ridden in the rain, would have some rust? I imagine that before a frame is so rusted as to fail, it is still rideable yet would not behave / feel like new, might feel soft? While not true today, might that have been true in 40’s, 50’s … sometime?

The story of the Molteni frames beaten dead and left to rust in a field … might they not have died to due to being ridden hard, but being putting away wet? Of all people, racers will be out training / racing in wet conditions. Frames of that era might not be the best with rust. Before getting laid to rest in field, I wonder if one those team frames had been cut in half what the inside would reveal.

If what I am speculating about is possible, then it would make sense that people in the era knew and discussed this problem. Its not surprising that once frames were made a little more rust resistant that the memory of frames going soft could remain while the reason for the phenomenon was forgotten and later a new reason created.

Is this possible?
In theory, yes. The magnitude of this, however, probably is quite small.

So far, this thread has been debating the idea that the act of riding somehow alters a basic physical property of the steel. It can't/doesn't. This new question, however, opens a different thesis ... "Does thinning of the tube wall, due to corrosive alteration/removal of the steel itself, lead to a frame that is less stiff?"

A steel tube's stiffness is determined by diameter and wall thickness. Reduce the wall thickness, while holding diameter constant, and the tube will be less stiff.

The practical question is how long does it take for internal rusting to thin the tube wall enough to make a perceptable difference. A thin coating of rust can actually form something of a protective layer on the steel, so this phenomena slows considerably after the initial patina develops. In many circumstances, rust is more ugly than it is damaging.

Most old steel frames that we've seen fail due to internal rust take a whole lot longer than the short lifespan of the team racer's frame dujour. In the course of a year's wet training and racing, could you lose 0.01 to 0.02mm of wall thickness on a tube that started as 0.5mm? I don't know. But I think that you'd have to lose considerably more before the racers could reliably detect the change in frame stiffness. For the rest of us mortals, even that much difference likely would be masked by the increased flex in the clapped-out wheels that are still on that bike.

Not necessarily defending this thesis, just thinking about the possibility. My educated guess is that this isn't the hoped-for explaination for the racer's claims. It does, however, explain why that old beater bike felt like a wet noodle before the seat tube broke away from the bottom bracket shell.

Cheers,
Tom

[dookie]

It does, however, explain why that old beater bike felt like a wet noodle before the seat tube broke away from the bottom bracket shell.

methinks the lugs were thinned a bit too much...

[LegendRider]

Dredging up an old thread...

I'm fairly certain I know the answer, but is there any way a carbon frame's properties can change with usage (assuming it hasn't been stored in direct sunlight or extreme heat for long periods of time)?

[fiamme red]

Reading this thread is starting to fatigue me. :rolleyes:

Soft SandyTry reading it again. :)

[LegendRider]

Try reading it again. :)

Funny! I just did in search of an answer. Lots of ghosts from the old Forum days...

[Brian Smith]

Dredging up an old thread...

I'm fairly certain I know the answer, but is there any way a carbon frame's properties can change with usage (assuming it hasn't been stored in direct sunlight or extreme heat for long periods of time)?

I think that a frame put together with large gaps filled with adhesive will begin sooner to degrade with time. You can't always know what goes on underneath that surface layer of carbon, and I think some companies have some stuff going on that is less than optimal.

The most dramatic of those changing properties is the one called staying together as a bicycle frame, though for some the property of rigidity loss makes a bike as trashworthy as a broken frame.

[William]

http://f128.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/raising-the-dead-medium.jpg




William