open letter to the new marketing director.

[swoop]

dear marketing director at serotta,

to my knowledge, this forum was gifted to serotta and company by kahuna and the good folks that participated and grew kahuna's bike forum over the years. other than hosting it and providing 4 'zen from ben' posts, there has been no real content provided by serotta with the exception of continuing to host and manage the forum (for which we are grateful).

as you offer advertisers banner space on a ratio of views per month to cost per ad, what you're doing is saying that the content here has a quantifiable and qualitative value... along the lines of what i am guessing is several thousand bucks per banner ad per month.

since its the users that provide the content that you're using to dictate the dollar value of the banner ads based on views... i'd like to know how you're going to compenate the users for providing that content? because you know.... we users can do this somewhere else. will you pay us per view too? do you intend to sponsor core users? are you tracking the value of the users per thread too?

i see this forum as being mutually beneficial between serotta and the entire span of content providing/resource providing users. as you start using this content to generate revenue... things will change. its been the lack of commercial association that's fostered an environment for movers and shakers to participate in such an intimate and informal level. by changing the nature of the venue, you're going to destroy that core value-producing force that makes this forum compelling and distinguishes it from any other bike forum.

the core of this forum exists and was created outside the influence of serotta. its dna still is what drives this conversation and makes it unique. serotta is the benefactor of this rather than the source. by trying to make this forum into something that produces revenue to the tune of tens of thousands of dollar per month on the back of its users... i'd like to point you into the direction of understanding that this is a mutually beneficial arrangement and that there is nothing but the potential for you to lose value in the (vulgar) attempt to gain value.

this seems a good venue for you to advertise serotta products, but i think as you sell adspace you cross a line that's out of touch with what this thing you have here is all about and i think you lose goodwill and more dollar value than you'll gain in the revenue you generate. i know that i will absolutely move on. perhaps there are others like me.


thanks for reading,

swoop.

[Lifelover]

dear marketing director at serotta,

I'm here for the long haul regardless how many adds you sell. Which by the way I notice that none of the builders are advertising yet.

P.S. I understand that I add no value to the bottom line of Serotta.

[e-RICHIE]

dear marketing director at serotta,

I'm here for the long haul regardless how many adds you sell. Which by the way I notice that none of the builders are advertising yet.



here -

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/2263075192_6b1256f1be_o.jpg


paypal sent.

[shinomaster]

I tried to get them to sponsor me for cross racing...

[shinomaster]

here -

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/2263075192_6b1256f1be_o.jpg


paypal sent.



Will you sponsor me?

[Sandy]

This should be quite an interesting thread.


Sandy

[manet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIXg9KUiy00&feature=related

[swoop]

This should be quite and interesting thread.


Sandy


keep hope alive.
its just a last ditch effort before they pave over paradise to make another parking lot.

[shinomaster]

How cool would a YELLOW skinsuit be with atmo written all over it?

[Fat Robert]

take it back to its roots

let it go away from the serotta.com website

thin the herd

[goonster]

I haven't seen any non-Serotta ads yet. :confused:

That said, any forum is what it is. If "core posters" had any commercial interest in their content, that'd be boiling the baby in the bathwater, atmo.

[catulle]

Not only do I agree with Swoop 100%, but I also admire his insightful and well-intended post. If I were on the marketing team he is addressing, I'd pay heed to what he is saying as it is for their benefit that he is writing. What he writes makes all the sense in the world to me. Just my opinion.

[flux]

all i'm saying is the world doesnt' need another ww's forum. that place is god awful.

[ecl2k]

Seems like it would benefit everybody involved if the forum continued on a different site with a new name and serotta can keep their forums for serotta product related questions and tech support like most good companies have been doing. The fact is that serotta bikes don't have a great reputation among the users of their forum, and this comes through in many subtle ways, a snide remark here and there, a lot of enthusiasm for competitor's products, multiple page critiques about every (mis)step serotta makes (like singolo). I think ben respects these opinions but it must irk him to no end that it is happening at serotta.com

[ecl2k]

as for the ads, I like adblock plus
http://adblockplus.org/en/installation

[flux]

can some one please show me where it says "serotta forum adspace for sale"?

[swoop]

. If "core posters" had any commercial interest in their content, that'd be boiling the baby in the bathwater, atmo.

exactly.
i'm clear that my posts are trivial and have no real value. i'm just a fan...
but i also understand why so many industry types play here. and when this thing becomes a format for adverts to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a month... it creates all kinds of conflicts of interests for the cats that post here that come with real gravitational force. and in my mind that's any party that pays the rent with dollars made in the industry...

[swoop]

can some one please show me where it says "serotta forum adspace for sale"?


i'd invite serotta to post that info..... and to foster transparency because essentially they're selling our conversations as a valuable product. in the meantime, check your email for an exciting opportunity to get your message to one of the fastest growing cycling communities on the internet.

[flux]

OK.

Why on earth would Serotta open up the opportunity for their competitors to advertise on the "Serotta Forum" all to make a few extra grand a month and piss of a lot of people in the process?

Is there some complex business algorythm thingy that they didn't teach me in college?

I'm curious and that' a straight up question.

[e-RICHIE]

OK.

Why on earth would Serotta open up the opportunity for their competitors to advertise on the "Serotta Forum" all to make a few extra grand a month and piss of a lot of people in the process?

Is there some complex business algorythm thingy that they didn't teach me in college?

I'm curious and that' a straight up question.
algorythm??
i love this spinelli catmo.

[shinomaster]

They should advertise Twizzlers. I bet they would make a small fortune.

[swoop]

OK.

Why on earth would Serotta open up the opportunity for their competitors to advertise on the "Serotta Forum" all to make a few extra grand a month and piss of a lot of people in the process?

Is there some complex business algorythm thingy that they didn't teach me in college?

I'm curious and that' a straight up question.


exactly. lets say i own d-bag bikes and i buy a year for 30k and i see atmo industries bikes being fawned over and the atmo tycoon posting...
what stops me from taking my 30k and saying to the marketing dept... please stop giving these guys free copy while i pay 30k for mine and everyone here says my stuff sucks a ball.

and then lets talk about moderating to satisfy advertisers. kind of a buzz kill in the making no?
and then.. as a smart d-bag bike owner i am of course gonna have my guys do the viral marketing... i mean 30k a year is a lot and i will back up that banner with some good pr. i'm no idiot (well, debatable.)

[davids]

dear marketing director at serotta,

I'm here for the long haul regardless how many adds you sell. Which by the way I notice that none of the builders are advertising yet.

P.S. I understand that I add no value to the bottom line of Serotta.You really don't get what makes this place valuable, do you?

The value comes (1) mostly from truly knowledgeable bicycle industry insiders, and (2) to a lesser extent from long-time experienced amateurs, who freely share their knowledge and experience with those of us who know next to nothing.

I came to this forum as a wet-behind-the-ears no-nothing enthusiast. I was drawn to the forum by the content provided by those in the know. Over the years, I learned a tremendous amount, made friends (virtual and real), made purchases based on my growing knowledge, learned more, and rode my bike with more & more passion and understanding of what was possible - from a bike and on a bike. I know that, in the scheme of things, I'm still the student. I've got very little to contribute to the knowledge base, and maybe just a tiny bit to contribute to the community.

Serotta hosts this site. But they do not participate in the community. That is to their discredit. Ben, Kelly, and everyone else at Serotta who designs & builds their frames should be at this table, part of the conversation, and part of this community.

Instead, Serotta is proposing selling ad space on this site. If the industry insiders start buying those ads, they will have a financial stake in this place that they don't now. That will color their contributions, and will be bad for this forum. And Serotta will still be an absent presence, a name at the top of the page and nothing else.

I love my Serotta frame, and am impressed with the technological sophistication that Serotta brings to its products. I write these things hoping that someone at Serotta will read this and understand, and that they will join our community instead of trying to turn it into a tiny little revenue stream.

[shinomaster]

I vote to a new kitten picture every day instead of adds.

[catulle]

Please remember the old marketing maxim that the more you advertise a crappy product the faster you'll kill it. If you know your bicycles you'll avoid the glossy paper. Keep it simple.

[dirtdigger88]

maybe "we" should go on strike


Jason

[aLexis]

algorythm??
i love this spinelli catmo.

in spanish, that's algoritmo

[Climb01742]

my inclination is to cut serotta some lack in this instance. they're just looking, i think, to defray some costs. nothing nefarious.

the real misunderstanding here is this: serotta sees supporting the forum as an expense, a cost. in reality it's an investment in their brand and future. an invaluable investment, at that.

i just think ben is getting some bad advice. he would be a rare founder if he knew as much about his calling (building frames) as he did about marketing.

[gasman]

I'm here for the long haul and to learn what I can and to contribute what I can (mostly not bike related). Doesn't Serotta spend money for servers, moderators, web-hosting etc ? I have no idea of the cost invovlved but it seems to me they are doing a good job and the forum members make this an informative, entertaining place waste time. I thank Serotta for that. I am spending all my money for my kids education so at this point in my life I will not be buying another bike. Serotta is on my short list for a future purchase.

I don't really care if they sell advertising space. They make a great product and have spent the money to make this forum possible.

Thanks Serotta.

[e-RICHIE]

in spanish, that's algoritmo
inside the beltway it's al gore rhythm atmo.

[Bill Bove]

in spanish, that's algoritmo

In pig latin that's...oh, never mind. this thread has all the earmarks of a locker to it.

[Sandy]

Seems like it would benefit everybody involved if the forum continued on a different site with a new name and serotta can keep their forums for serotta product related questions and tech support like most good companies have been doing. The fact is that serotta bikes don't have a great reputation among the users of their forum, and this comes through in many subtle ways, a snide remark here and there, a lot of enthusiasm for competitor's products, multiple page critiques about every (mis)step serotta makes (like singolo). I think ben respects these opinions but it must irk him to no end that it is happening at serotta.com

"....The fact is that serotta bikes don't have a great reputation among users of their forum,......" is a ridiculous statement. Many users of this forum are multiple Serotta owners. Some think that Serotta bikes are expensive- I agree. Some think that the process of building a bike using the Serotta fit program sometimes produces bikes that don't fit properly. That may be the case for a myriad of reasons, most of which are communication. I realize that direct one on one communication with the builder is undoubtedly more efficient. It is also true that some that criticize Serotta fits are not taking into consideration the limitations/needs of the cyclist- looking at the bike without enough knowledge of who is riding it, and having a perception of what a properly fit bike should look like.

Serotta bikes have a great reputation. Serotta bike design, build, materials, and paint all have tremendous respect on this forum. To say that is not the case is simply absurd to me. Too expensive- say it- I have. Don't like the look of some- say it. Prefer another brand- say it. But to question Serotta's reputation of their bikes makes no sense to me based upon what is written on this forum. Serotta produces about 3000 bikes per year. They are remarkably well received on this forum.

I drive a Porsche Cayman S. No back seats. Limited storage. Can buy two really nice cars for the cost of a Cayman S. Might not like the looks of it. Fine. Might think that it is an absurd purchase as it is expensive and not practical. No problem with any of that. But very few who know anything about the car would question its design, build, quality, and abilites. It is just like a Serotta in that way. Superb reputation.

Sandy

[edouard]

inside the beltway it's al gore rhythm atmo.

spitzer, tipper

[ergott]

The fact is that serotta bikes don't have a great reputation among the users of their forum

Nonsense. I think Serotta makes awesome bike. I love mine (non I'm being paid)

A few people have vented here, but that is what forums are for. You here the bad, but rarely do people take the time to say the good. It's almost assumed here.

-Eric

[goonster]

in spanish, that's algoritmo

Whatever. In German, it's Allgäu Rhythmus.

http://www.connectedtraveler.com/CT/images/schu1.jpg

[ergott]

I think that if it were simply about recuperating the cost of this forum, they already did that. Plenty of people have purchased a Serotta either directly from reading and participating here or from the recommendation of those that do.

Otherwise, a simple donation button of $5-$10 would suffice. Plenty of people would click and not expect anything more than the continuation of a quality forum with no ads and the baggage they create.

[shinomaster]

I think tasteful Serotta adds on the Serotta forum are O_K. What I don't want are obnoxious distracting blinking commercials which I have to concentrate to avoid, just so I can read and decipher one of e-Richie's jokes. If it turns into cyclingnews.com I'll leave. But where will I go?

[jthurow]

Best thing Serotta could do on the forum would be to actually have someone from Serotta answer questions about Serottas posted to the forum. Quite the novel idea I know...

jimi

[J.Greene]

maybe "we" should go on strike
Jason

Fair pay for a work day!

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Fair pay for a work day!

JG
well it is may day after all atmo -

http://www.vintagefashionguild.org/labels/images/il2.jpg

[aLexis]

inside the beltway it's al gore rhythm atmo.

you just had to one-up me.

[J.Greene]

you just had to one-up me.

Low hanging fruit.

JG

[Pete Serotta]

Under the worse bottle of red and the associated hangover, I could not come up with figures of revenue of multiple 1ooo dollar revenue per month. I am not going to get into whether ads are good or bad(that is BEN and SEROTTA management job).

From a personal point of view I think all space should be used for the promotion of SEROTTA products, OWNER CLUB stories, and bicycle general topic,

But I would also like to add some additional information items

The KAHUNA hosting was great but and we tried to hire his hosting service about 18 months ago, He had a full plate and we thus strengthened our commitment to HOSTWAY (Standalone server and additional storage) The cost and manpower to manage the site are SEROTTA

THe vast majority of users were not on SEROTTA/KAHUNA forum two years ago. Vast majority are new,

THE FRAME BUILDER FORUM had ads....why do I throw this out -- to show that this is not an original idea.

Revenue from the forum - you do not have to believe me that it is at most a deferring of cost for storage and Servers. Put your business hat on and ask if you were the builders and product houses looking to sell- what is your business case for spending that type of money on the forum? Builders have waits now so what does spending MEGA $$ buy them?


(yeah storage and hosting is not expensive is the common thought BUT add up the hardware and personal time and it has a $$ charge)

lastly, yes we are all on the forum because we get something out of it. YEah this could be friendship, information, ideas on builds, and classifieds.
What additional is being asked of you if BEN and COMPANY sell some ad space? WHat is is costing you?

Just my two cents before we get into a revolt here..... (I can not figure what we would be revolting from :confused: :confused: )

PETE



exactly.
i'm clear that my posts are trivial and have no real value. i'm just a fan...
but i also understand why so many industry types play here. and when this thing becomes a format for adverts to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a month... it creates all kinds of conflicts of interests for the cats that post here that come with real gravitational force. and in my mind that's any party that pays the rent with dollars made in the industry...

[catulle]

Under the worse bottle of red and the associated hangover,
Just my two cents before we get into a revolt here..... (I can not figure what we would be revolting from :confused: :confused: )

PETE


Hell, we MUST revolt against crappy wine for sure...!!! And hangovers...!!!

[J.Greene]

Under the worse bottle of red and the associated hangover, I could not come up with figures of revenue of multiple 1ooo dollar revenue per month. I am not going to get into whether ads are good or bad(that is BEN and SEROTTA management job).
PETE

a million page views and a normal cost per 1000 would get you there easily for a decent sized ad.

JG

[shinomaster]

Under the worse bottle of red and the associated hangover, I could not come up with figures of revenue of multiple 1ooo dollar revenue per month. I am not going to get into whether ads are good or bad(that is BEN and SEROTTA management job).

From a personal point of view I think all space should be used for the promotion of SEROTTA products, OWNER CLUB stories, and bicycle general topic,

But I would also like to add some additional information items

The KAHUNA hosting was great but and we tried to hire his hosting service about 18 months ago, He had a full plate and we thus strengthened our commitment to HOSTWAY (Standalone server and additional storage) The cost and manpower to manage the site are SEROTTA

THe vast majority of users were not on SEROTTA/KAHUNA forum two years ago. Vast majority are new,

THE FRAME BUILDER FORUM had ads....why do I throw this out -- to show that this is not an original idea.

Revenue from the forum - you do not have to believe me that it is at most a deferring of cost for storage and Servers. Put your business hat on and ask if you were the builders and product houses looking to sell- what is your business case for spending that type of money on the forum? Builders have waits now so what does spending MEGA $$ buy them?


(yeah storage and hosting is not expensive is the common thought BUT add up the hardware and personal time and it has a $$ charge)

lastly, yes we are all on the forum because we get something out of it. YEah this could be friendship, information, ideas on builds, and classifieds.
What additional is being asked of you if BEN and COMPANY sell some ad space? WHat is is costing you?

Just my two cents before we get into a revolt here..... (I can not figure what we would be revolting from :confused: :confused: )

PETE


Pete makes some good points.

[swoop]

1) i'm stating out loud that there is something specific that differentiates this forum from all others and invites intimate contact with movers and shakers where other forums don't.
2) and i am suggesting there is a secondary effect to selling adsapce that has to do with the expectations of the advertisers and their influence upon content, specifically non advertiser generated content and hubris, and folks that work in the industry and are competitors of advertisers. this will make this forum just like the all the other ones. it will no longer be unique.
3) there is absolutely a price being offered per column or banner related to viewer ship and my numbers relate to that.
4) i think that there is a voice missing in the dialogue... our voice. on one hand, the marketing via serotta says that the readership is the value and offers us as numbers to justify a price per ad... and so i am working from the presumption that we have a value to direct the forum too.
you cant sell us as having value and then negate our value at the same time.


we aren't a product... and ultimately i'm asking for transparency and for the conversation to take place before it can no longer take place.

but if you're suggesting that there isn't a price sheet going around... that's not accurate info on your end.

it seems to me its all appropriate conversation and although it might not align with serottas opinions... it's in support of the general success and well being of the board and brand.

its just conversation... i think i'm fairly typical in saying my goodwill towards the brand comes perhaps more from the board than the bikes... which i don't see enough of out here.

[edouard]

Low hanging fruit.

JG

ice bath

[93legendti]

inside the beltway it's al gore rhythm atmo.

THIS is your best work.

[MarleyMon]

... i'd like to know how you're going to compenate the users for providing that content? because you know.... we users can do this somewhere else....
... i know that i will absolutely move on. perhaps there are others like me.


thanks for reading,

swoop.
you have got to be kidding! Where are you going? Nowhere!

If you do leave, I hope you delete each of your precious posts before you go, so Ben won't profit from your pearls of wisdom.

[swoop]

you have got to be kidding! Where are you going? Nowhere!

If you do leave, I hope you delete each of your precious posts before you go, so Ben won't profit from your pearls of wisdom.

read the bit where i write that i don't offer value here and am just a fan... its a few posts down.

[flux]

you have got to be kidding! Where are you going? Nowhere!

If you do leave, I hope you delete each of your precious posts before you go, so Ben won't profit from your pearls of wisdom.

is this sarcasm? hope so.

[93legendti]

you have got to be kidding! Where are you going? Nowhere!

If you do leave, I hope you delete each of your precious posts before you go, so Ben won't profit from your pearls of wisdom.

This place is Hotel California...I remember a big throw down a year ago. Seems like everyone is back and posting more than ever.

[e-RICHIE]

THIS is your best work.
adampedia 3.18 atmo -

[MarleyMon]

read the bit where i write that i don't offer value here...
This is apparent from the aggregate of your posts.
Self deprecation does not increase their value.

[Brons2]

OK.

Why on earth would Serotta open up the opportunity for their competitors to advertise on the "Serotta Forum" all to make a few extra grand a month and piss of a lot of people in the process?

Is there some complex business algorythm thingy that they didn't teach me in college?

I'm curious and that' a straight up question.

Seems like their target market would be component suppliers like Shimano, Campy, SRAM, etc...also maybe nutritional and clothing suppliers. Things that dovetail into the Serotta business model.

I'm sure they wouldn't let competiting framebuilders come in here and purchase banner ads. Their postings are advertisement enough.

[MarleyMon]

is this sarcasm? hope so.
something to keep him busy.

[csm]

there's ads here somewhere? I hadn't noticed. I try to spend a few moments here each day or so and browse what people have read. sometimes I post sometimes I don't. I appreciate Serotta having this forum. I don't get why the ads bother folks? ignore them. if they offend so much, stop hanging out. not sure where the disconnect is.
have a nice day

[flux]

This is apparent from the aggregate of your posts.
Self deprecation does not increase their value.

MarleyMon,

I can't remember a single post you have ever made yet your stats say "536". Funny how that is.

Love,
Flux

[swoop]

Seems like their target market would be component suppliers like Shimano, Campy, SRAM, etc...also maybe nutritional and clothing suppliers. Things that dovetail into the Serotta business model.

I'm sure they wouldn't let competiting framebuilders come in here and purchase banner ads. Their postings are advertisement enough.



you'd think... but ....

[93legendti]

adampedia 3.18 atmo -

I live my life by the credo that even a broken clock is right twice a day.


PS, I prefer adampedia 3.16 because it reminds me of the post size on my Spectrum.

[benb]

a million page views and a normal cost per 1000 would get you there easily for a decent sized ad.

JG

You're probably an order of magnitude or two away from 1,000,000 hits per month on this website.

There are slightly under 200 people on right now.. 1/2 of which are actually members.. that's 5,000 hits per month per person including the guests.

Now figure out what the click through rate and/or buy rate is on the ads.. probably not so great.

[MarleyMon]

flux- even the limericks?
I'm shattered.

[flux]

flux- even the limericks?
I'm shattered.

OK 535 I don't remember.

Be nice to swoop "he likes you"

[dirtdigger88]

sell ad space to folks who post the porn links- that would be cool

Jason

[swoop]

This is apparent from the aggregate of your posts.
Self deprecation does not increase their value.


i think there's value in talking about all sides of things and i think when we as users are being quantified per view/per dollar, when we generate all the content.. that this is a logical and thoughtful conversation to have. because any change in the system creates other changes as well.

in the end these are just words and if you step back.. these words point to a similar goal, that is to maintain the value of this thing for us and serotta.
hence the concept of mutual benefit.

i think discussing the potential impacts of an intervention in this context is nothing but positive and to do so in an open and transparent format makes sense.

i don't presume to be right about anything but the inherent value of the conversation.

[catulle]

This is apparent from the aggregate of your posts.
Self deprecation does not increase their value.

I respectfully beg to differ. I believe Swoop to be one of the most valuable contributors to this forum. For starts, he is a competitive cyclist and his insight into the sport and the machine is significant. He's also articulate and can express his views with a distinct clarity. And his attitude towards others in general and the forum in particular is respectful and kind. I wouldn't want to loose his presence in this place that sometimes makes the law of relativity easy to understand.

[shinomaster]

I've been coming here since 2000. Maybe even a post or two back in 1999. It was always free and that appealed to me. It was like a secret club that you could only find if you looked hard at the corner of the Serotta Homepage. Back then this was really a Serotta_chat_site. We were almost all Serotta customers, be us joyful or disgruntled. I sometimes wish this place didn't get so large. Remember when a thread would actually last a few days? When you knew who everyone was?
If this place turns into Roadbikereview.com or Velonews, a lovely gem of a place, will be to my eyes, ruined. Maybe not forever, but for a time.

Sincerely super silly seriously sarcastic,

Shino

[swoop]

when a forum is also a community that there's value in the state of the union as it were.

[MarleyMon]

OK 535 I don't remember.

Be nice to swoop "he likes you"
he can dish it out, and he can take it.

It struck me as "biting the hand that feeds".
I was struck by the overweaning arrogance of threatening to leave a VOLUNTARY community, which asks NOTHING of a member except an email address. Why? Because he helps create the value that draws people here?
I call BS.

[mjb266]

i think there's value in talking about all sides of things and i think when we as users are being quantified per view/per dollar, when we generate all the content.. that this is a logical and thoughtful conversation to have. because any change in the system creates other changes as well.

There is a valid point being made here. The quality of this site is not created by Serotta at all. It's being created by the participants. If Serotta is hosting the site and paid for upgraded hosting then they already see the value in maintaining the "serotta forum".

As I post this there are seven different banners staring at me, far more than I would like to see but way less than cyclingnews or Pez cycling. At least cycling news can claim the need for banners as they are essentially a online magazine ads are what they sell to generate revenue. Serotta on the other hand, is not creating content as the pez, velonews, etc. do. They are maintaining a space for discussions that luckily has their name in the title. Wouldn't a builder benifit if the forum were to be the Kirk forum or the Calfree forum?

As for people dissing Serotta decisions with respect to framebuilding...Isn't there some expression akin to, "The only thing worse than having people saying something bad about you is people not saying anything at all"

[csm]

I enjoy swoop's posts also, but if he stops hanging around I won't follow. I doubt he'd follow through on it anyway.

[Brons2]

you'd think... but ....

Just to be clear, I am not agreeing with your rants.

I work in IT and I know what our environment costs us, for a 330 user organization with 70 servers and 26 employees in IT between desktop, network, developers, business analyst, QA and management, it runs around a coupla million bucks a year.

You assert that this forum is a profit center, not a cost center, from the value of the information gleaned here. And from a feel-good standpoint it is probably true.

However, from a pure accounting and numbers standpoint, it is a cost. It would be difficult in accounting terms to quantify the value add of this forum to Serotta in terms of frames sold.

so....

Good on Serotta for trying to defray the cost so that this resource can remain available to all!

Rather than rant and threaten to leave, I would suggest appealing to Serotta to feature ads that add value to the brand without detracting value from the forums. That would be a rational argument.

[keno]

From those who have thrown some numbers out there, I believe that you have a highly exaggerated idea of what online advertising sells for and how it's priced.

In terms of eyeballs, which is one aspect of pricing, this website doesn't offer many. By my current count, there are about 11,000 or so on the Members List, many of them duplicates, and a number of non-Member lurkers. How many views, and unique views, the website gets is something only Serotta knows, if it indeed does. Not very many eyeballs.

Another aspect of pricing is click throughs, some resulting in sales and some not. The click throughs leading to purchases are the valuable ones. Do you really see someone clicking through to Sachs, Spectrum, Kirk, etc. and buying a bike, or even looking? What bike-related product do you think might result in a click through let alone many clicks through? Better wine, cheese, coffee or the like than a bike-related product. Click through purchases is where it is at. Take a look at Amazon. They now sell just about everything under the sun and the sellers are typically otherwise non-related entities. Those sales result in payments to Amazon.

Overall, I don't see this website as one for which an advertiser would pay very much to be on. If you were a potential advertiser, what kind of deal would you be willing to make to be seen by what in the advertising world is a very small audience, not likely to click through to buy a product?

Personally, I hated when Serotta started throwing up their banner and column material and got generally dissed for my view. I've developed my own tunnel vision and am less annoyed than initially. Along this line, I could care less if it is Serotta or XYZ up there. If they start to make the advertising flash, move, make noise, or stay up for a number of seconds until actual access to the site, a section in it or a thread occurs, that is another story.

I don't think Serotta owes me anything or that I owe them anything, regardless of the fact of my two Serottas purchased new from a dealer. As to the advertising, I think that they are barking up the wrong tree. Better they should spend their efforts wining and dining leisure editors on newspapers around the country for free advertising such as in today's NYT.

keno

[swoop]

I enjoy swoop's posts also, but if he stops hanging around I won't follow. I doubt he'd follow through on it anyway.


yeah yeah.. don't you leave.

the me leaving isn't the point (who cares.. you shouldn't)... i can even edit that out to protect the point.
i don't want you to care about swoop.. you know, we've (all) never even met!!!!!! no worries there.

the point is the uniqueness of this place for the industry participation... and the environment that fosters that.. the h2o and oxygen for that is in its dna..as in a non advertising format.

ahh, i belabour...

lets at least have the thread to talk about it.

[e-RICHIE]

Wouldn't a builder benifit if the forum were to be the Kirk forum or the Calfree forum?
calfree!??
slip of the tongue!!

As for people dissing Serotta decisions with respect to framebuilding...Isn't there some expression akin to, "The only thing worse than having people saying something bad about you is people not saying anything at all"
oscar wilde atmo -
“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”

[swoop]

Just to be clear, I am not agreeing with your rants.

I work in IT and I know what our environment costs us, for a 330 user organization with 70 servers and 26 employees in IT between desktop, network, developers, business analyst, QA and management, it runs around a coupla million bucks a year.

You assert that this forum is a profit center, not a cost center, from the value of the information gleaned here. And from a feel-good standpoint it is probably true.

However, from a pure accounting and numbers standpoint, it is a cost. It would be difficult in accounting terms to quantify the value add of this forum to Serotta in terms of frames sold.

so....

Good on Serotta for trying to defray the cost so that this resource can remain available to all!

Rather than rant and threaten to leave, I would suggest appealing to Serotta to feature ads that add value to the brand without detracting value from the forums. That would be a rational argument.

the leaving isn't a threat, but a reaction to the inherent sea-change in content once advertisers are paying 3 bucks per thousand clicks.... and the effect advertisers have on the willingness of folks in the industry to openly participate here. i'd leave for the nutritional value going away... because that's the force that compels me here. its not a statement or a protest...
but to point out that the force of this place will change under advertising.

go look at sites that use advertiser revenue and see if you get the depth of luminaries there that we get here.

[Lifelover]

...
go look at sites that use advertiser revenue and see if you get the depth of luminaries there that we get here.


e-Richie and Sacha were both posting on RBR just the other day.

I suspect at least a few of the posters there have raced a bike a time or two or have work in an LBS.

Not that different really. Just allot more BS to weed thru is all.


RBR gets the Bikesdirect guy too! Top that!

[shinomaster]

e-Richie and Sacha were both posting on RBR just the other day.

I suspect at least a few of the posters there have raced a bike a time or two or have work in an LBS.

Not that different really. Just allot more BS to weed thru is all.


Plenty of BS here too.

[e-RICHIE]

e-Richie and Sacha were both posting on RBR just the other day.

I suspect at least a few of the posters there have raced a bike a time or two or have work in an LBS.

Not that different really. Just allot more BS to weed thru is all.


RBR gets the Bikesdirect guy too! Top that!
uh i'm one of the R's in RBR atmo.

[shinomaster]

Bikes "R" US.

[1centaur]

Each cycling forum has its own flavor, created by chance as it built its membership, and each brings something of value to the table. Bikeforums, roadbikereview, weightweenies, bicycling, Kahuna's bikefanclub, etc. all have ads and none pays contributors. The bargain is the community and the information - each forum has both.

If we're talking industry participants, weightweenies might have more than Serotta. In many cases they are the same, but the ones more likely to be here than there are steel frame related and/or have somewhat more years in the business, while the ones more likely there than here are closer to cutting edge developments. Both have plenty of highly experienced and/or pro riders to cover power and training and fit.

What I think makes this forum special is the average age of the participants and their more mature tone, plus the breadth of life experience that makes us about more than cycling. The OT threads are often the most interesting. The type of person who posts here is probably more bothered than average by flashy, cluttered pages and might drift away if the clean interface is ruined too much (see Brendan's latest rant on this topic at the Competitive Cyclist site). I for one think the forum would lose more from losing long posts from mature people than from losing some of the industry insiders (though of course I enjoy both). We share the bond of cycling and fitness but we talk about everything. That's what is special.

Yes the forum is a little uglier than it used to be (interface, that is), but if there are a few ads for other companies in the current spaces I would not mind it. This forum will be fine (and will be a marketing plus for the brand) if it does not give most of us a reason to leave. That's my message for the marketing department.

[shinomaster]

God forbid if we do have to suffer through unsightly adds may they be the kind that do not blink, or have animation.
:beer: :banana: : :fight: :argue: :fight: :no: :banana: :crap:

:bike: :fight:

[Charles M]

I'm at Weight weenies forums pretty regularly...

They have a few banners to help pay the costs of the place and it didn't change the feel of the place a bit (not saying that place is better than this because it's not..).

Pez have a substantially larger crowd and flow than this (not meant as insult just for relative info) and the add space is substantially cheaper than the estimates posted here. Or at least it was the last time I saw an add sheet 8 months ago.


There's a big difference between paying to play (membership fee's) and simply offering add space.

And it's an open invitation to competitors but not a requirement for them to be here still?



To me that sounds exactly like the open values the place has always had...

Come one come all and talk about the things you love...



That this place starts to collect some of the outlay in time and dollar cost for running this place won't effect me at all... A change in the attitude of it's moderation would, but I see absolutely nothing that suggests that because a random few folksmight toss up an add, that moderation would change.


This place has a fantastic crowd that I believe is better self moderated than just about anything else in cycling...

I think there's "too much guts" here to change with a mild change to the decor...

[mjb266]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]calfree!??
slip of the tongue!!

Shoot, I'd go and fix it but in it's own freudian way it's sort of funny

[e-RICHIE]

I think there's "too much guts" here to change with a mild change to the decor...
arrange disorder atmo -

:cool: :cool: :)
:rolleyes: :p :D
:) :D :)

[shinomaster]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]calfree!??
slip of the tongue!!

Shoot, I'd go and fix it but in it's own freudian way it's sort of funny


That's Japanese for Calfee.

[Grant McLean]

This place is Hotel California...I remember a big throw down a year ago. Seems like everyone is back and posting more than ever.

yes. right after serotta andrew got fired,
many regulars came back.

-g

[flux]

I'm at Weight weenies forums pretty regularly...

They have a few banners to help pay the costs of the place and it didn't change the feel of the place a bit (not saying that place is better than this because it's not..).

Pez have a substantially larger crowd and flow than this (not meant as insult just for relative info) and the add space is substantially cheaper than the estimates posted here. Or at least it was the last time I saw an add sheet 8 months ago.


There's a big difference between paying to play (membership fee's) and simply offering add space.

And it's an open invitation to competitors but not a requirement for them to be here still?



To me that sounds exactly like the open values the place has always had...

Come one come all and talk about the things you love...



That this place starts to collect some of the outlay in time and dollar cost for running this place won't effect me at all... A change in the attitude of it's moderation would, but I see absolutely nothing that suggests that because a random few folksmight toss up an add, that moderation would change.


This place has a fantastic crowd that I believe is better self moderated than just about anything else in cycling...

I think there's "too much guts" here to change with a mild change to the decor...

PezTech,

Come join us. Please.

Do you really want to talk about how much a piece of shift housing weighs and why you really don't need it over at the WW forum?

[AgilisMerlin]

who is going to carry the load


serotta or the forum members............... ?

is this the question that is bothering the few or the masses ?


this is like playing darts with the lights turned off..............

just sayin'

[Pete Serotta]

Google, Yahoo, and MANY others already use you when you go to their site or search. This is not a judgement JUST a fact.

I truly do not know the plan and business model for SEROTTA. But after working for IBM Consultant Services for over a decade, I can tell you it is extremely hard to make money from a site. Time will tell.


Come have a ride and a beer with me and lets forget the electron gods.


i think there's value in talking about all sides of things and i think when we as users are being quantified per view/per dollar, when we generate all the content.. that this is a logical and thoughtful conversation to have. because any change in the system creates other changes as well.

in the end these are just words and if you step back.. these words point to a similar goal, that is to maintain the value of this thing for us and serotta.
hence the concept of mutual benefit.

i think discussing the potential impacts of an intervention in this context is nothing but positive and to do so in an open and transparent format makes sense.

i don't presume to be right about anything but the inherent value of the conversation.

[Birddog]

see if you get the depth of luminaries there that we get here.

http://www.newmexicophotos.com/blog/photos01/five-luminarias.jpg

Birddog

[Charles M]

PezTech,

Come join us. Please.

Do you really want to talk about how much a piece of shift housing weighs and why you really don't need it over at the WW forum?


I am too weak to resist the power of the dorkside... http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/vader.gif

[Pete Serotta]

Now that would be a money maker....... :cool:


sell ad space to folks who post the porn links- that would be cool

Jason

[AgilisMerlin]

serotta pete,

you get some serious slapdown on this forum.....................


for whatever reasons........................thanks............. . :D

[paczki]

I want to know:

Is Swoop cowgirl? I thought it was Roman Meal but Swoop spends so much time denying it.

Curious :banana:

[J.Greene]

I want to know:

Is Swoop cowgirl? I thought it was Roman Meal but Swoop spends so much time denying it.


Where is she? Hanging with Viper?

JG

[Ahneida Ride]

Two Points ...

I've been around here for a bit. I can recollect few complaints about Serottas. Yea, I've heard complaints about fit (a problem every manufacturer
has, not just Serotta) but few complaints about the frame itself.
I love my Legend. Best investment I ever made.


Ads can be informative or obnoxious. I doubt Serotta will plaster this
site with (well ... you know the type)

[Pete Serotta]

Slap down is part of my DNA...I have also met MANY wonderful folks that I have shared riding, drinking, and just good times with over the years. It is a small price to pay for all the wonderful folks that I have come to know and call friends.... :banana: :banana: :banana:

serotta pete,

you get some serious slapdown on this forum.....................


for whatever reasons........................thanks............. . :D

[djg]

uh i'm one of the R's in RBR atmo.

Richie, Baylis, and who is the other one?

[e-RICHIE]

Richie, Baylis, and who is the other one?
racha white atmo.

[Len J]

much todo about nothing to me.

Makin a mountain out of a mole-hill. It's the people here that set the tone for this place.....it always has been, it always will be. If Ben uses some ads to keep this place alive.....I'm all for it.

As to the rest of the "This might happen"........and it might not.

len

[kipjac]

That's strictly Al-a-gorical, right e-ritchie?

[roman meal]

No budget but thanks for the opportunity. Maybe in the future.

[3chordwonder]

after working for IBM Consultant Services for over a decade, I can tell you it is extremely hard to make money from a site.

Absolutely.

On the other hand it's relatively easy to kill a site (especially a forum), and one way to do it is making the content providers feel leveraged too much.

I for one hope the site stays the same (i.e. with Serotta promos done nicely).

[DarrenCT]

woah this is a lot of info to take in

the ad banners are a stupid idea, everyone comes here to get advice from cool folks like swoop, flux, grant, tootall, jerk, etc, etc... and serotta should probably have a few active folks who know whatsup hanging here

time for a beermo

[cadence231]

This is like a cozy little internet home for me...a place I can hang my hat. I hope it always stays the same and never goes awaymo.

Love,

Dorothy Gale
xxxooo

[cadence231]

ps.

Stop scaring me. :no:

[swoop]

e-Richie and Sacha were both posting on RBR just the other day.

I suspect at least a few of the posters there have raced a bike a time or two or have work in an LBS.

Not that different really. Just allot more BS to weed thru is all.


RBR gets the Bikesdirect guy too! Top that!


this is the thing though.. i never feel compelled to look at rbr. and what's cool about this place is that it isn't rbr. but i think it will become rbr.... which to me means, not a little community and more just another bike message board.

maybe i'm fighting growth here.

[swoop]

I want to know:

Is Swoop cowgirl? I thought it was Roman Meal but Swoop spends so much time denying it.

Curious :banana:


i am not cowgirl.. but i do know who she is and will never tell. i'm not the lying type (can't play poker either)!

[rounder]

I agree with both Swoop and Pete. They are both smart and make compelling cases, plus like what they always bring to the other discussions (realize also that i rarely add much good stuff if any to the discussions). I stumbled on this place last year when trying to get ideas for my bike. I like bikes but also like cars and guitars. However, i do not spend time on any other forums because everything and more that i would look for is here. But, I am not loyal to this forum. If everyone left and went somewhere else, I would too. Love serottas, but do not feel obligated to hang at their website. I like martin guitars even more, but do go to their forum if they even have one.

As far as being being taken advantage of with the advertising...i don't feel that way so far. I realize that on-line advertising is part of today's world. I assume that advertisers would be attracted because of the demographics offered by this forum, and it doesn't bother me because that is how business works. Someone mentioned that serotta should consider that the forum is an investment rather than a cost. All investments have cost. If you are serotta, or any other company, you have to operate within a budget and your choice of investments (including sponsoring a cool bike forum) is limited by what you can afford. If some on-line advertising helps defray that cost, that is ok by me, so long as it does not become too annoying or offensive. I realize that is not being very idealistic (grew up in the 60's), but sometimes you have to make compromises.

[Fixed]

dear marketing director at serotta,

to my knowledge, this forum was gifted to serotta and company by kahuna and the good folks that participated and grew kahuna's bike forum over the years. other than hosting it and providing 4 'zen from ben' posts, there has been no real content provided by serotta with the exception of continuing to host and manage the forum (for which we are grateful).

as you offer advertisers banner space on a ratio of views per month to cost per ad, what you're doing is saying that the content here has a quantifiable and qualitative value... along the lines of what i am guessing is several thousand bucks per banner ad per month.

since its the users that provide the content that you're using to dictate the dollar value of the banner ads based on views... i'd like to know how you're going to compenate the users for providing that content? because you know.... we users can do this somewhere else. will you pay us per view too? do you intend to sponsor core users? are you tracking the value of the users per thread too?

i see this forum as being mutually beneficial between serotta and the entire span of content providing/resource providing users. as you start using this content to generate revenue... things will change. its been the lack of commercial association that's fostered an environment for movers and shakers to participate in such an intimate and informal level. by changing the nature of the venue, you're going to destroy that core value-producing force that makes this forum compelling and distinguishes it from any other bike forum.

the core of this forum exists and was created outside the influence of serotta. its dna still is what drives this conversation and makes it unique. serotta is the benefactor of this rather than the source. by trying to make this forum into something that produces revenue to the tune of tens of thousands of dollar per month on the back of its users... i'd like to point you into the direction of understanding that this is a mutually beneficial arrangement and that there is nothing but the potential for you to lose value in the (vulgar) attempt to gain value.

this seems a good venue for you to advertise serotta products, but i think as you sell adspace you cross a line that's out of touch with what this thing you have here is all about and i think you lose goodwill and more dollar value than you'll gain in the revenue you generate. i know that i will absolutely move on. perhaps there are others like me.


thanks for reading,

swoop.
bro one thing swoop is brilliant that is for sure imho
cheers

[Pete Serotta]

I found out just about an hour ago that there was a "rate card" and that some folks have received notes from Tiffany (Marketing Director). Swoop was correct on these facts.

Swoop and others please accept my apology.

I do not have any info on amount of advertising and how it will be managed.

Lets keep the emotion down and see where things go.... as I find out "stuff" I will validate and let you all the extended "Serotta Family" know.

All of you know I am extremely biased and will be happy when everyone is on a SEROTTA and drinking drinking RED :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

I found out just about an hour ago that there was a "rate card" and that some folks have received notes from Tiffany (Marketing Director). Swoop was correct on these facts.

Swoop and others please accept my apology.

I do not have any info on amount of advertising and how it will be managed.

Lets keep the emotion down and see where things go.... as I find out "stuff" I will validate and let you all the extended "Serotta Family" know.

All of you know I am extremely biased and will be happy when everyone is on a SEROTTA and drinking drinking RED :beer:
Petepedia 2.0 atmo -

[swoop]

i don't think ben and company see that they have a community here rather where a another lame bike message board is starting to sprout like weeds. it think its misunderstood by them as a marketing tool or revenue drain...
when it should really be a community as resource. there should be bike lovers within the house of serotta that should be encouraged to spend time here. to post personal views, images that catch their fancy, and to exchange ideas, and to do what kirk, atmo, hampsten and all those dudes do.

this thing has the potential to be so much more than another rbr.com or weight weenies but i think its tumbling rapidly that way for nothing but a lack of imagination from the powers that be.

and i think more serottas will be sold my way. but...
i could be totally wrong.

i'm fighting for it this little way....
maybe from the folks that have taken time to respond what i'm finding out is that i'm missing the point or lack the capacity to see it in front of me.

[Fixed]

this is the thing though.. i never feel compelled to look at rbr. and what's cool about this place is that it isn't rbr. but i think it will become rbr.... which to me means, not a little community and more just another bike message board.

maybe i'm fighting growth here.
bro remember the time you told me this place is like a hang out after a training ride where we just talk about stuff ..like after a ride
cheers

[Lifelover]

this is the thing though.. i never feel compelled to look at rbr. and what's cool about this place is that it isn't rbr. but i think it will become rbr.... which to me means, not a little community and more just another bike message board.

maybe i'm fighting growth here.

I'm not saying this to start a flame war but I think you got some kinda of Big Fish, little Pond thing going on.

It's just a freaking internet forum, your just some fast dude, I'm just some fat dude and E-Richie is just some dude that happens to make nice bikes.

There really is not anything more to it.

P.S. RBR as a whole is made up of a bunch of little communities just like this. Visit the "Fixed", "commuter" or the heaven forbid the "lounge" forums and it just like it is here. Many of the same people post at both places.

[flux]

I'm not saying this to start a flame war but I think you got some kinda of Big Fish, little Pond thing going on.

It's just a freaking internet forum, your just some fast dude, I'm just some fat dude and E-Richie is just some dude that happens to make nice bikes.

There really is not anything more to it.

P.S. RBR as a whole is made up of a bunch of little communities just like this. Visit the "Fixed", "commuter" or the heaven forbid the "lounge" forums and it just like it is here. Many of the same people post at both places.

mebe you should just post there.

[e-RICHIE]

atmo personal contact is like so 1998 atmo.

[swoop]

I found out just about an hour ago that there was a "rate card" and that some folks have received notes from Tiffany (Marketing Director). Swoop was correct on these facts.

Swoop and others please accept my apology.

I do not have any info on amount of advertising and how it will be managed.

Lets keep the emotion down and see where things go.... as I find out "stuff" I will validate and let you all the extended "Serotta Family" know.

All of you know I am extremely biased and will be happy when everyone is on a SEROTTA and drinking drinking RED :beer:

there's nothing to be apologizing about! we're all wanting the best thing for this community and different beliefs about what that thing might be are all golden.

[DarrenCT]

I'm not saying this to start a flame war but I think you got some kinda of Big Fish, little Pond thing going on.

It's just a freaking internet forum, your just some fast dude, I'm just some fat dude and E-Richie is just some dude that happens to make nice bikes.

There really is not anything more to it.

P.S. RBR as a whole is made up of a bunch of little communities just like this. Visit the "Fixed", "commuter" or the heaven forbid the "lounge" forums and it just like it is here. Many of the same people post at both places.

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/7475/splashxt5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Sandy]

Serotta gives us a sandbox to play in. Forum members and guests play in the sand. Forum members who post build the little sand castles.

Those who post and interact, provide the content, both cycling and otherwise, and the human aspect, which ultimately gives the forum an identity, that identity always changing in a dynamic manner. We have a most varied group of folks here that participate- world class bicycle builders, racers, coaches, recreational riders, wheel builders, bicycle mechanics/sales cyclists, bike store owners,...., experts in many fields totally unrelated to cycling,...., and lots of individuals with a real passion for cycling. Some own Serottas and some don't and none of us really care what any one else rides.

Without the sandbox, there is no place to play. Without the people who play in the sandbox, there is no vitality, no identity, no community. So what is important? The sandbox or those who play in it? Clearly, both are needed. Serotta has provided us with a beautiful sandbox and the myriad of cyclists who frequent it give it life.

Is there something special about the Serotta Sandbox? Absolutely- Serotta is the only bike builder that I am aware of that not only provides the sandbox but allows all to play in it and say basically anything that is reasonable- even that which might be negative about Serotta itself. Does Seven, Trek, Calfee, Kirk, Specialized, Strong, Kellogg,......offer anything like this? I think not. The Serotta Sandbox is unique.

Is there anything special about those playing in the Serotta Sandbox? Absolutely- There is a genuine community, a special feeling, a unity, a flavor, and a quality that simply exists as a function of those who participate here. It transcends the cycling and other content, which in itself is special. We may disagree, argue, become emotional, and sometimes even nasty, but the players genuinely care about others in the Serotta Sandbox, as is clearly evidenced by the genuine sincerity and concern for others in their times of need and the constant willlingness for the Sandbox players to help othet players. Lasting friendships are the result. I know that I have some that I will cherish forever.

Serotta Sandy thinks that it is almost foolish and silly to leave this place. There ain't another such sandbox to play in. This one is that good. Perhaps those who have problems with potential advertisement policies that Serotta is or might be using, shoud communicate/suggest better alternatives, understanding that it is still Serotta's Sandbox. Perhaps Serotta could better use its Sandbox- More active participation by those at Serotta has been suggested most often.

Stay and play in the best Sandbox. The players and the Sandbox operator both benefit. Another sandbox might not even have sand in it.

I hope the above makes sense. My dog has beel climbing all over me and licking me as I tried to write this. Blame it on King if it sucks.


Serotta Sandbox Sandy Sandy

[justinf]

Lifelover, come on man, your agenda has been made pretty clear at this point. Anti-cabal. What seems to elude you and perhaps others is that your cycling experience and thus what you offer here is very different from what others do. People who can relate to one another usually do so.

Why does one complain so much yet stay?

In my opinion the only other place that had any of the charm of this board was the now-defunct Frameforum. Why? The mix of people. What matters to me is what keeps me coming back to this board, and not to to RBR or wherever else.

I do think the banner ads are misguided and that Serotta really has yet to take advantage of their greatest resource here--the ability to participate as the gracious host and resident expert. Do I think that advertisers would change their perspectives as dollars are spent? Not so much, this to me is more about philosophy.

[saab2000]

As long as it doesn't get nasty (as it has bordered upon a few times in the past), this is the best board there is. Tried others and occasionally post, but this is the place my computer always takes me. The ads do not offend me one iota. Rather they make me realise that Serotta recognises this place as a potential source of business, just as others have even if it doesn't overtly come across as such.

[vaxn8r]

Lifelover, come on man, your agenda has been made pretty clear at this point. Anti-cabal. What seems to elude you and perhaps others is that your cycling experience and thus what you offer here is very different from what others do. People who can relate to one another usually do so.

Why does one complain so much yet stay?

In my opinion the only other place that had any of the charm of this board was the now-defunct Frameforum. Why? The mix of people. What matters to me is what keeps me coming back to this board, and not to to RBR or wherever else.

I do think the banner ads are misguided and that Serotta really has yet to take advantage of their greatest resource here--the ability to participate as the gracious host and resident expert. Do I think that advertisers would change their perspectives as dollars are spent? Not so much, this to me is more about philosophy.

Nailed. More succinctly than I in the other thread. +++

[fiamme red]

In my opinion the only other place that had any of the charm of this board was the now-defunct Frameforum.Is it really defunct? I thought it was started up again.

[AgilisMerlin]

When and if, Serotta become a voice on the forum:

old adage: familiarity breeds contempt........

and so participating leads to defending ones

ideas
philosophies
beliefs
and reasoning

are they, us really comfortable explaining why something is done, how it is done, and what merit it should have.

in affect their adveritising is their only medium, a open book, for us to see. And so direct contact is their mission............non forum related.

[AgilisMerlin]

Is it really defunct? I thought it was started up again.

from the burning ashes,


http://www.frameforum.org/portal/index.php

[rspecker]

This forum would fade away without the official connection to Serotta. It's nice to think that "contributions from viewers like you" are the real value--but people seek status, reassurance and safety from Brands--in everything, the things they buy, the places they frequent, the opinions they value, etc. Class consciousness/anxiety is the not so secret main motivator of what people do. Take away a person's stuff--no problem. Challenge his or her relative superiority to the people he or she views as lesser--Armageddon. That's why people wear "Coke Is It" sweatshirts and "49er's Jerseys with Jerry Rice" written on the back. They are looking for status in association with something successful. Of course others wouldn't even consider wearing a named sports jersey to the mall (I'm guesing most people here), and so on. So this forum has the same dynamic. It is self-selected for people that think it is populated with others of "my people", and part of this self-selection is by association with the Serotta brand. There have been other posts (rants) on this Forum that labled it "elitist". Hmmm. Maybe, maybe not--just depends on whether this is "your people" or not--becuase if so it is neither elitist or not it is just comfortable (meaning your class consciousness/anxiety alarms don't ring when you are here). So basically, if this forum tried to move somewhere else then possibly remmnants of it would be successful, but more likely it would just fade away.

The real issue is whether there has been any censorship by Serotta--including of those who are obviously peddling competitors' products. I think Serotta has shown remarkable restraint in this regard over the years--and there have been some really flagrant abuses of Serotta's hospitality IMHO.

A few ads aren't going to change this good stewardship.

By the way, for the record I learn a lot from the very knowledgeable posts from the members on this site. So I'm not saying the members aren't indispensible because they are; I'm just saying that Serrota is an indispensible part of the formula as well.

[AgilisMerlin]

I mean no ill will by post below, this is just MY spin on the reasoning behind how the forum works. Neither good nor bad......

and my opinion, with time, will assuredly change :D


When and if, Serotta become a voice on the forum:

old adage: familiarity breeds contempt........

and so participating leads to defending ones

ideas
philosophies
beliefs
and reasoning

are they, us really comfortable explaining why something is done, how it is done, and what merit it should have.

in affect their adveritising is their only medium, a open book, for us to see. And so direct contact is their mission............non forum related.

[catulle]

Too much impetuosity from the new team, maybe? Shouldn't they get to know their new hood, their new culture a little better before rushing to possibly counterproductive bright new ideas? Are they too eager to show they're worth the money they're getting paid? Easy does it might be a better route, maybe?

I've learned that when you work for a company as an employee each fish has its own set of priorities according to its size. And as a result it is often confusing for the smaller fish to understand what the bigger fish are doing. This can get very complicated in all respects: Flat organizational charts, empowerment and all that crap.

Is it that a small company is undergoing an expansion process? Are they trying to revive the Christmas tree with new lights and figurines instead of simply feeding water to the tree? Just wondering...

I'm just trying to figure out what's going on, so I apologize if I've nicked a toe or two.

[DarrenCT]

Are they trying to revive the Christmas tree with new lights and figurines instead of simply feeding water to the tree? Just wondering...

eh this is a great a statement. how can i use this to score a girl at the bar tomor night?

[IXXI]

nevermind

[Tom Byrnes]

Super Smart Serotta Sandbox Sandy: Very well stated. Thank you.

Serotta gives us a sandbox to play in. Forum members and guests play in the sand.
. . . .
Without the sandbox, there is no place to play. Without the people who play in the sandbox, there is no vitality, no identity, no community. So what is important? The sandbox or those who play in it? Clearly, both are needed. Serotta has provided us with a beautiful sandbox and the myriad of cyclists who frequent it give it life.
. . . .
Stay and play in the best Sandbox. The players and the Sandbox operator both benefit. Another sandbox might not even have sand in it. Sandy

Your Pal,

Tom

[Your_Friend!]

Friends!


This All Seems

A Bit Black_Helicopters

To This_Penguin!

But That Is What I Am!

A Mere_Penguin!



Love,
Y_F!

[Louis]

everyone comes here to get advice from cool folks like swoop...

Darren, have I been in a different but parallel forum?

[shinomaster]

Friends!


This All Seems

A Bit Black_Helicopters

To This_Penguin!

But That Is What I Am!

A Mere_Penguin!



Love,
Y_F!



HUh?

[shinomaster]

Darren, have I been in a different but parallel forum?



You mean you don't come here for free therapy?

[Louis]

You mean you don't come here for free therapy?

Yes I do, but not the kind dispensed by Dr. Swoop. :)

[M.Sommers]

Can someone offer me the cliffnotes?

[Your_Friend!]

HUh?



Shino_master!


Maybe Read_This? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_helicopters)




Love,
Y_F!

[shinomaster]

Shino_master!


Maybe Read_This? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_helicopters)




Love,
Y_F!



Wow! Lil' penguin! That's just like the movie Brasil!

[William]

...The real issue is whether there has been any censorship by Serotta--including of those who are obviously peddling competitors' products. I think Serotta has shown remarkable restraint in this regard over the years--and there have been some really flagrant abuses of Serotta's hospitality IMHO.

A few ads aren't going to change this good stewardship.





Stepping onto my soap box….

Well, I’ll say it. If it gets me booted, so be it.

My response is…More than most of you know. There Have been a few ruffling of feathers over the years here, and one in particular that many will remember. I was contacted by a former Serotta employ after they had left who basically told me that it was nothing personal against the people targeted, it was a directive that came from upper management that was carried out. Many didn’t believe it then, and many probably won’t now. But those involved know the truth and if they wanted to talk about it, they will. I’m being vague on purpose because I don’t want to burn that persons bridge for them.

I have been a long time Serotta fan and I have owned a couple of Serotta’s purchased new. I still think they make a very good product but I personally don’t care for the direction they have taken in the last few years…into the uber elite, high priced set. I liked them much better when they actively supported racing on the local level. I came up in an environment where all the successful riders rode Serotta’s, pushed Serotta’s, and really loved the product. You could go to most any local RR or crit and see a good number of them being raced out there every weekend. That’s what motivated me to get one as well. Now days it’s extremely rare to see one in the peloton or out on the road. To me, that’s sad.

I’ll have to place myself in the camp that believes that they really don’t understand what they have here. I don’t know what Serotta’s financial situation is like, but like most companies, they are going to look for ways to generate revenue. The forum is being seen as one way to do that for them. On one hand, I don’t have a big problem with that as long as it doesn’t turn into pop-ups, banners that follow you around, or garish flashing eye sores. On the other hand, Swoop has a point that in essence, they are trying to make money off our knowledge and input. It isn’t Serotta that created the community. They opened a door and said to the refugees, “Here’s a bare empty room, stay as long as you like.”…and then we rarely see or hear from them again. We get comfortable, start fixing the place up. Paint the walls, new carpeting here, hard wood floors there. Update the bathroom and kitchen, put in a wet bar, drapes, pictures, a new LCD flat screen entertainment center. Pretty soon everyone is coming over and hanging out since it’s so comfortable with great people to hang with. Industry leaders and knowledgeable everyday folks are mingling and freely sharing advice on cycling and other areas of expertise on a daily basis. The place has a great vibe…and everyone knows your name. Serotta comes back around and thinks “Hey, this is a cool place, we should start charging certain folks to hang here. “

Like it or not, the dynamic will change. Make this place Kool aid drinkers only. The dynamic will change. Make this place strictly cycling content only, the dynamic will change….all for the worse in my opinion.

The best thing Serotta can do at this point is to leave the forum as it is. It draws a big crowd of the most diverse and knowledgeable people in the business. It has turned many people on to Serotta who have in turn bought new or used Serotta’s from info they have garnered here. It has expanded many people’s knowledge of the cycling world in general. Shown people just what is involved in fitting and frame building. Shown us that there are many great builders out there, many who frequent and share knowledge freely to folks on this forum. Educated many of us on the different possibilities of equipment usage and availability. All this in a space provided by Serotta, who have let it grow to what it is with minimal overt input. Your name is associated with the forums growth, but not the cause of it. Many respect you for letting it be what it has become…warts and all. To try and change all that now is to your detriment in my opinion.

Off my soap box.

William

[fungusamungus33]

atmo personal contact is like so 1998 atmo.


In the 90's people actually had contact? I think things are better now with a computer in between us...

[Tom]

Some of y'all are more on the inside but looking in the window I see a few things darkly.

At first I was going to rip Swoop for saying 'we are what make this place great' but then it occurred to me that this place is one big freaking ad for Serotta, and that has a lot to do with what other people have said - there are people here that make bikes, that race bikes, that know bikes, that know how to ride really really long distances, and in a lot of cases are fairly bright people, and Serotta for the most part lets them jabber on any way they want.

This probably sells more Serottas than you'd think.

I'm guessing a new team came in with glossy Powerpoint presentations and looked over the expense sheet and said "Heyy... you're not drawing revenue from that forum you're paying to host."

Wrong again, bucko. Sometimes you have to look past level one.

We are making a bunch of assumptions about things, though - if Serotta does sell ads but exercises some discretion about who they sells to and says "oh by the way, if somebody sees your ad and immediately posts that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, tough bananas we ain't gonna stop them", will the mere thought that there is some pressure screw things up here? Probably. Ah, well.

One very good point is that it would not be a bad thing if we heard about stuff from people at Serotta on this forum. You want to generate revenue? Have prospective buyers able to read what the people at Geyser Road have to say.

Simple fact. This forum sells Serotta bikes. Serotta bikes ain't cheap. People do a little research. They show up over here, look around and in many cases get a favorable impression and whaddaya know - it helps them decide to place an order.

Things change, that is the one immutable fact. This place will change. That's the way it goes. It would be a bummer if it changed into an infomercial, though.

I could write this better and make my point, such as it is, more coherently but I gotta go to work.

[stevep]

No budget but thanks for the opportunity. Maybe in the future.

roman,
you owe me man.
s

[Too Tall]

Woo Hoo I read all ten pages without losing all feeling between my ears :rolleyes: Pete, answer this pls. tell me if I'm wrong. Advertising was an afterthought. The pricing structure is based on industry norms. which is really not insighful because you knew nobody would ever accumulate a tab over three dollar monthly fee even under extrodinary circumstances. Yes? If that is correct, that with the notion that these meager proceeds will ,in part, go straight to charity than equals a weak request for acknowledgement that there is a cost of doing business. The message was lost along the cow path sorry man. What it sounded like is not so innocuous and 10 pages later...here we are. Today all the banner ads are Serotta related...good save.

Can I change your question pls.? Keep advertising strictly Serotta related and that includes Serotta and BenMo's concerns and nods to others blah blah. Also, add a Forum Donation button that automatically gives 10% to these charities.

Whoop-ee-ti-yi-o get along little doggies,
You know that Wyoming will be your new home.

[keno]

I don't have a copy of Gladwell's book, "The Tipping Point", near at hand, so I'll wing it. There was a small company that produced, I believe, highly specialized skate board shoes. It had a cult following of sorts and was its core constituency. Wanting growth having seen its bottom line stagnate, which I believe is the Serotta malaise (I've heard 3,000 frames for several years now), the shoe company created new lines for a larger market and tried to popularize its brand and invented, in its own personal way, "extinction".

Rather than maintain its high end, somewhat boutique status (and as a cash cow, assuming that it is), it appears to me that in various efforts intended to make the bottom line grow, other than through price increases and the like while keeping production more or less constant because of market forces (lack of demand), Serotta is exploring tactics that are likely to erode that lofty boutique position. I hope that saner heads prevail and that the limits of Serotta as a bike manufacturer are appreciated. It would be a shame for Serotta to invent its own personal model of extinction. I am not a collector of bikes as many of you are, but your collections include many frames of now extinct companies which each found a way to become so.

It would be great fun to have copies of the Serotta financial statements for the past three years. The basis for the story is likely well-laid-out there.

My own guess, not knowing how old Ben is, that when the fiddling ends, he'll sell what's left of the company and become, perhaps, the next Lemond in this context.

Serotta sees itself in business no man's land. It can go in any of three ways. I like to watch.

keno

[J.Greene]

Woo Hoo I read all ten pages without losing all feeling between my ears :rolleyes:[/COLOR]


Joshpal,

change your settings. with the rght tweak you'll get 40 posts per page. Makes life easier.

JG

[Elefantino]

A few things after reading AND losing the feeling between my ears:

Sandy's posts are the best in this thread and make the most sense.

The fact is that serotta bikes don't have a great reputation among the users of their forum ... that's patently ridiculous.

And if those of you on Macs would use the Camino (http://caminobrowser.org/) browser, which cleverly blocks all display ads, this all would be a moot point.

PC users? You're on your own.

[bhungerford]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the best part of this forum is the community and content like Swoop says, and i believe, as he does, that this will drastically change if we get non-Serotta ads here.

Serotta needs money, and i have a feeling especially lately. the question to Pete is, if you could find out how much they need per year to keep the forum as is, i for one will help fund it. and i would think that many others would also. But the only way to do that would be to have the actual cost completely transparent. I have no interest in buying ad space, i have nothing to sell, but i would like to see this forum stay how it is, and unique.

Just my two cents....




-same post i have in the open letter p2

[catulle]

A hasty man drinks his tea with a forkmo.

Woo Hoo I read all ten pages without losing all feeling between my ears :rolleyes: Pete, answer this pls. tell me if I'm wrong. Advertising was an afterthought. The pricing structure is based on industry norms. which is really not insighful because you knew nobody would ever accumulate a tab over three dollar monthly fee even under extrodinary circumstances. Yes? If that is correct, that with the notion that these meager proceeds will ,in part, go straight to charity than equals a weak request for acknowledgement that there is a cost of doing business. The message was lost along the cow path sorry man. What it sounded like is not so innocuous and 10 pages later...here we are. Today all the banner ads are Serotta related...good save.

Can I change your question pls.? Keep advertising strictly Serotta related and that includes Serotta and BenMo's concerns and nods to others blah blah. Also, add a Forum Donation button that automatically gives 10% to these charities.

Whoop-ee-ti-yi-o get along little doggies,
You know that Wyoming will be your new home.

[catulle]

If there is a wave there must be windmo.


I don't have a copy of Gladwell's book, "The Tipping Point", near at hand, so I'll wing it. There was a small company that produced, I believe, highly specialized skate board shoes. It had a cult following of sorts and was its core constituency. Wanting growth having seen its bottom line stagnate, which I believe is the Serotta malaise (I've heard 3,000 frames for several years now), the shoe company created new lines for a larger market and tried to popularize its brand and invented, in its own personal way, "extinction".

Rather than maintain its high end, somewhat boutique status (and as a cash cow, assuming that it is), it appears to me that in various efforts intended to make the bottom line grow, other than through price increases and the like while keeping production more or less constant because of market forces (lack of demand), Serotta is exploring tactics that are likely to erode that lofty boutique position. I hope that saner heads prevail and that the limits of Serotta as a bike manufacturer are appreciated. It would be a shame for Serotta to invent its own personal model of extinction. I am not a collector of bikes as many of you are, but your collections include many frames of now extinct companies which each found a way to become so.

It would be great fun to have copies of the Serotta financial statements for the past three years. The basis for the story is likely well-laid-out there.

My own guess, not knowing how old Ben is, that when the fiddling ends, he'll sell what's left of the company and become, perhaps, the next Lemond in this context.

Serotta sees itself in business no man's land. It can go in any of three ways. I like to watch.

keno

[Sandy]

There is much speculation as to why Serotta does what it does. I never thought that the real issue with Serotta was how much it costs to operate the forum. I may be entirely incorrect but my feeling was that there are bicycle builders who because of their presence on the forum have benefited business wise from said benefit and Serotta wanted them to pay some for the benefit they received. Of course (as I stated in a post in a thread before) these very individuals add immensely to the forum in so many ways and never pushed their products in any manner whatsoever.

We must realize that what we speculate about Serotta's motivations are speculation and nothing more. There is a new kid in the block and that is the Serotta Management Team and they must make changes. Some will be good and some will not.


Sandy




-same post i have in the open letter p2[/QUOTE]

[keno]

I'd bet that Serotta's bottom line would change somewhere in the squat area. While the forum may create a buyer from time to time, I'd further bet that the overwhelming majority of Serotta sales are to people who have never heard of the forum let alone identify it as important in their purchase of a Serotta. There are plenty of product reviews elsewhere and a robust company website that will be viewed by potential Serotta purchasers without the need for this forum.

I've enjoyed the forum over the years and hope that it continues, but I have no illusion that it is important to Serotta other than in it being unique in staying close to some of its owners. Other than that marginal value, I see the forum as having little importance to the company but great for those of us who read and post and buy and sell. Thus, let's try to sell a gold brick (that would be advertising, which I think to the buyer is near worthless on this website).

keno

[bhungerford]

you are probably right, as you usually are...

a question for you, will you keep playing in the sandbox if we have flashy ads? cause that would truely be great, i always enjoy reading your posts and i think most others do too.

basically bored at work

bhungerford

(yeah, b is much harder to do than S :D )

[Sandy]

What I don't sometimes get is why Serotta does not ACTIVELY participate on its own forum. I think Ben's weekly thread is a major step in that direction. But there are often many instances in which there are specific questions/misunderstandings/ issues with Serotta products and although such is apparent on the forum, Serotta seldom responds to the concerns/questions involved.

The advertising mechanism is certainly not clear to me- who/cost/where the money goes but I assume either that I am simply not privy to that info as I think some here are, or I am not too bright (King loves me and says it is the former :) ). Serotta could clear the ambiguities that exist by direct participation with a very clear explanation of such if in fact that is what it wants to do and if in fact the mechanism/decison to proceed has clearly been made.

A novel idea- Serotta ask those on the forum what they think about an issue that is important to Serotta. Do it on the forum or pick some folks and do it off the forum. Many here would be glad to comment.

I started a thread on whether Serotta is going to build a less expensive all carbon non-custom Fierte type bike. It was a very popular thread with about 4300-4500 views and about 125 or so posts, if I remember correctly. The fact is that Serotta has produced one said bike and it is being sold at some of its dealers. Perhaps it is just a test program and perhaps it has not reached the point of Serotta communicating much about it. But, with the exception of comments by one Serotta employee, there had been utter silence about it from Serotta.

I do hope that the basic essence of the Serotta forum remains unchanged. If advertising is incorporated, then I hope that is done in a low key soft manner as opposed to one with bells and whistles.

Management teams are paid to manage. Changes will occur. I hope that Serotta's Management Team truly understands the positives and negatives of the forum before it acts relative to it. I also hope that we realize that it is still Serotta's Sandbox and if Serotta wants to make it a round Sandbox instead of a square one, the sand is still a lot of fun to play in.


Square Sandbox Sandy Serotta Sandy

[bhungerford]

Nice post Sandy, I agree, i think instead of selling ad space, use the forum, ask those questions, we're (mostly anyways) the demographic Serotta is aiming for.

[Ti Designs]

Serotta needs money, and i have a feeling especially lately. the question to Pete is, if you could find out how much they need per year to keep the forum as is, i for one will help fund it. and i would think that many others would also. But the only way to do that would be to have the actual cost completely transparent. I have no interest in buying ad space, i have nothing to sell, but i would like to see this forum stay how it is, and unique.

Just a few things:

First, Serotta's need for money isn't due to costs of running an internet forum. Selling ad space would be to offset the cost of production. There's a huge difference in the numbers.

Second, why can't people ignore ads? Very little in life is free of marketing, yet few have given up on their whole lives because of it. I think it's kinda funny. The other day I noticed that on the back of most cars there's something that bosts what the car has - mostly about engine size, but there are plenty of emblems to tell you their car has ABS. How many cars sold today don't have ABS? I was feeling a bit below average the other day, I drive an 88 Honda CRX without ABS, so I took some fridge magnets and added an emblem to the back of my car to tell the world what I have. It says "rust".

Lastly, I have made this offer in the past, but I'll try one more time. For $35 I'll leave the Serotta forum and never return. That would eliminate at least 1/3rd of whats wrong with this place while pissing off SteveP 'cause he didn't think of it first.

[stevep]

eddie,
i got $3,500 in a jar. oddly, it came in donations of under $5 from about 1,000 people.
sadly, i spent it on a wheelset that cost more than all yr bike shiit put together..so i am still $34.50 short of the buy out.


Just a few things:

First, Serotta's need for money isn't due to costs of running an internet forum. Selling ad space would be to offset the cost of production. There's a huge difference in the numbers.

Second, why can't people ignore ads? Very little in life is free of marketing, yet few have given up on their whole lives because of it. I think it's kinda funny. The other day I noticed that on the back of most cars there's something that bosts what the car has - mostly about engine size, but there are plenty of emblems to tell you their car has ABS. How many cars sold today don't have ABS? I was feeling a bit below average the other day, I drive an 88 Honda CRX without ABS, so I took some fridge magnets and added an emblem to the back of my car to tell the world what I have. It says "rust".

Lastly, I have made this offer in the past, but I'll try one more time. For $35 I'll leave the Serotta forum and never return. That would eliminate at least 1/3rd of whats wrong with this place while pissing off SteveP 'cause he didn't think of it first.

[catulle]

eddie,
i got $3,500 in a jar. oddly, it came in donations of under $5 from about 1,000 people.
sadly, i spent it on a wheelset that cost more than all yr bike shiit put together..so i am still $34.50 short of the buy out.

:eek:

[paczki]

eddie,
i got $3,500 in a jar. oddly, it came in donations of under $5 from about 1,000 people.
sadly, i spent it on a wheelset that cost more than all yr bike shiit put together..so i am still $34.50 short of the buy out.

I'll donate a spork I have in the garage that I use to get glue off of my rims. It's a collector's item. I bet it's worth at least $20. Or I'll trade it for those fancy wheels. I bet it's worth at least $3500.

[Chris]

If they close it down, we can just all move over to the Moots forum or better yet, just take over some forum completely unrelated to cycling (like Weight Weenies) that would be fun.

[stevep]

I'll donate a spork I have in the garage that I use to get glue off of my rims. It's a collector's item. I bet it's worth at least $20. Or I'll trade it for those fancy wheels. I bet it's worth at least $3500.

hey, we should have a donate button here....
click here to remove ti-desings from the site...
ti, honestly,
i think we could come up with about $75,000 a year for at least 5 years... like an annuity. after my percentage you would probably get yr $32.00...
( less expences )

we could have... he's coming back unless you kick in now...maybe matching donations... we could put npr out of business...

why didnt anyone ever think of ads on here before?

[swoop]

hey, we should have a donate button here....
click here to remove ti-desings from the site...
ti, honestly,
i think we could come up with about $75,000 a year for at least 5 years... like an annuity. after my percentage you would probably get yr $32.00...
( less expences )

we could have... he's coming back unless you kick in now...maybe matching donations... we could put npr out of business...

why didnt anyone ever think of ads on here before?


could be funded by ad from a carbon wheel company... don't buy our wheels unless someone is giving them to you..

fundamentally disagreeing with something a dude writes, or being put into a deep pain as the result of an aesthetic offense... doesn't mean you don't
love them. jeeez.

[flux]

or better yet, just take over some forum completely unrelated to cycling (like Weight Weenies) that would be fun.

potm

[Dan Le foot]

[QUOTE=Tom]

Simple fact. This forum sells Serotta bikes. Serotta bikes ain't cheap. People do a little research. They show up over here, look around and in many cases get a favorable impression and whaddaya know - it helps them decide to place an order.

QUOTE]

I agree with that, Tom.
Most effecient form of advertising for Serotta imo. (cost per impression)
Ads here for non Serotta products wouldn't bother me. I actually like reading cycling related advertising.
Dan

[e-RICHIE]

i propose we all move to the north shore and join ccb atmo.
dithcuss.

[roman meal]

its on the agenda after tenure and getting competitive

[bostondrunk]

bro one thing swoop is brilliant that is for sure imho
cheers

Couple of thoughts:
1. Fixed - PLEASE stop kissing ass so much. I know i'm gonna get in trouble for saying that, but geeez.... :crap:

2. What the fruck is the big deal with a few ads on the side?? It doesn't cost anyone here anything. As a couple of others have mentioned, just ignore them.

3. What is so wrong with the WW forum?? Not every thread there is about the weight of cable housing....And there are some pretty useless topics posted here on a daily basis as well.....like this one.

[flux]

.

3. What is so wrong with the WW forum??

"if you have to ask, you'll never know."

[bostondrunk]

"if you have to ask, you'll never know."

Well, I never said I was a genius like Swoop..:)

[e-RICHIE]

2. What the fruck is the big deal with a few ads on the side?? It doesn't cost anyone here anything. As a couple of others have mentioned, just ignore them.

can't we keep the ads where they've been all along - in the posts atmo!!

[William]

can't we keep the ads where they've been all along - in the posts atmo!!


http://help.jumpon.us/images/playVideoOverlay.gif

[swoop]

he can dish it out, and he can take it.

It struck me as "biting the hand that feeds".
I was struck by the overweaning arrogance of threatening to leave a VOLUNTARY community, which asks NOTHING of a member except an email address. Why? Because he helps create the value that draws people here?
I call BS.

i think your interpretation of what i've written about here is fundamentally different than mine....

this isn't about 'me'... its about all of us.
when the hand that feeds becomes a pimp hand i think the ho deserves a voice.

this is a community that, of its own volition and impetus, raised 2k bucks to sponsor ofoto/sierra neveda just because serotta was involved. it, we, i, you are a valuable and rare resource rather than a revenue stream.

[Sandy]

Couple of thoughts:
1. Fixed - PLEASE stop kissing ass so much. I know i'm gonna get in trouble for saying that, but geeez.... :crap:

2. What the fruck is the big deal with a few ads on the side?? It doesn't cost anyone here anything. As a couple of others have mentioned, just ignore them.

3. What is so wrong with the WW forum?? Not every thread there is about the weight of cable housing....And there are some pretty useless topics posted here on a daily basis as well.....like this one.

Will only comment on number 2.- In the overall scope of things what is really such a big deal? Life is not perfect. People are not perfect.The forum is not perfect. It is so inconsequential compared to really significant aspects of your life and what is happening around us in the world today. It ain't no big deal one way or the other is it really? We sometimes don't realize how much we all have in our lives today compared to so many. We are too busy in the minutiae of our own lives to realize how unimportant much of it really is.


Sandy

[ClutchCargo]

. . . this isn't about 'me'... its about all of us.
when the hand that feeds becomes a pimp hand i think the ho deserves a voice. . . .



Well, mebbe it's also like this:

You know it's hard out here for a pimp (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)
Will have a whole lot of b!tches jumpin ship (you ain't knowin)



Swoopster, man, chill.

have a pizza

... and a beer !

:)

[William]

Well, mebbe it's also like this:

You know it's hard out here for a pimp (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)
Will have a whole lot of b!tches jumpin ship (you ain't knowin)



Swoopster, man, chill.

have a pizza

... and a beer !

:)


Ya know....pimps get no respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEv6i-lhIWc


:rolleyes: ;)


William

[paczki]

Ya know....pimps get no respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEv6i-lhIWc


:rolleyes: ;)


William

Word.

[jeffg]

Nonsense. I think Serotta makes awesome bike. I love mine (non I'm being paid)

A few people have vented here, but that is what forums are for. You here the bad, but rarely do people take the time to say the good. It's almost assumed here.

-Eric

+1

I heart Serotta (and this board)

[mikki]

I'm here for the long haul and to learn what I can and to contribute what I can (mostly not bike related). Doesn't Serotta spend money for servers, moderators, web-hosting etc ? I have no idea of the cost invovlved but it seems to me they are doing a good job and the forum members make this an informative, entertaining place waste time. I thank Serotta for that. I am spending all my money for my kids education so at this point in my life I will not be buying another bike. Serotta is on my short list for a future purchase.

I don't really care if they sell advertising space. They make a great product and have spent the money to make this forum possible.

Thanks Serotta.

I tend to agree with the support of Serotta's proposed change. The economy is very sluggish right now; those who own businesses have a different perspective than those that work for those who own businesses. Sometimes marketing ideas cause a shaking out and rearrangement in the old ways and then take off.. equating to increased profits. Sometimes the new idea fails. I think they are thinking outside the box with all of this and I don't fault them for that. Their ideas may pay off for them at the end of the day. Maybe it won't.

I have learned alot on this forum. I have an awesome bike as a result of what I learned and some friends that I hope to keep for years.

[gt6267a]

is there some type of system where i might txt my vote for best posts in this thread? i vote for 1, 82, 131, and 173 but really want to do it teenage girl style voting 10k times to ensure my favorites win!!!!!!!

catulle gets a big vote from me in the concept of growing pains. hiring marketing people, selling bikes directly, a working online paint tool ... things are changing and it seems like all the commotion in the water is from a lot of fish swimming around in a small tank.

a few words to serotta: in the same light as we would all love to hear more from serotta about bikes ... i think it would be great to hear more from serotta about what they are doing with the forum. so much speculation with so little knowledge.

why should you talk directory to the forum other than to just stop this thread? because ... this place is a community that over time has become important to a lot of people. for many people coming to the serotta forum is about more than just bicycles. people care. not because they got their feelings hurt and start a flame war, but people actually care about their fellow posters in a positive way. that is a big part of the rare and special. swoop is right, its just the interweb and what does it matter back in reality? but there is an impact beyond the interwebs. for everyone here that has said to a friend, mate, co-worker ... hey i was reading about this on the serotta forum ... the forum just made the leapmo.

this place is a digital home and you are changing the wall paper and painting the bathroom. if you were to come home and find your wife / husband / boyfriend / girlfriend / cat / dog / horse / atmo / whatev repainted the house without consulting you, it would be upsetting.

serotta pays the rent and ultimately has the final call, but there are a lot of people living here. if the community is valuable enough to market, than we are valuable enough to talk to about the changes. just as an example, as stated above, if the reason for the changes is to cover costs, the community might be will to take care of that ... whatever the reasons, talk to us, there are a lot of smart / capable people here, tap that and find an even better solution.

[zap]

So they place ads there >. Or there ^.

Big deal.

Just like all the other ads on the web, I ignore the crap.

It's the content I'm interested in.

[Lifelover]

I’ll get on my soap box for a moment and than be done!

This forum has loads of amazing people posting. Some are very achieved X-pro racers, some current pro racers, some of the most amazing frame builders in the world, people with amazing knowledge of the cycling industry, folks with amazing knowledge of cycling history, some people with PHD’s, people that could (and maybe have) been head of fortune 500 companies and some amazingly generous people.

However, unless Earnest or Eddy show up, NOBODY that post here has been more successful at establishing a bicycle Brand than Ben Serotta. That success can be measured by units sold, profits, product quality, product development, product diversity, etc. I also don’t think anybody here has hosted a more successful forum.

Why than, do so many folks here feel the need to tell Serotta how to go about their business?

Let Serotta run their business and THEIR forum as they see fit and buy or participate as you see fit.

The forum is not about “me”, it’s not about “you” and it’s not about “us”.

[92degrees]

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7882/navelgazingli5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

When the marketing folks need to construct a unique selling proposition to potential advertisers I think it should be "Navel gazing, our forumites do it better than anyone."

[J.Greene]

If serotta is going to sell with glossy flyers and rate cards what we bring to the table should we have a stake? The forum is not going away me thinks and either is Serotta, but if the forum is cut in half and as a consequence the ad value drops, does that not imply we have value? Personally I'd like to see Ben say fruckoff to all this and run the place like it should be run.

JG


Why than, do so many folks here feel the need to tell Serotta how to go about their business?

Let Serotta run their business and THEIR forum as they see fit and buy or participate as you see fit.

The forum is not about “me”, it’s not about “you” and it’s not about “us”.

[William]

A man walks into an office.

Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.
Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?
Man: No, this is my first time.
Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.
Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No.
Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.
Man: Thank you.

He enters room 12.

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh...Sorry...
A: Not at all!
A: (under his breath) stupid git.

The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You didn't!
O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
O: Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a
proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just
the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!

The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.

O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five
minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you...
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I-dbct-fd-tq! I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH!
Gotcha!
O: No you haven't!
M: Yes I have!
If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily.
I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
M: I've had enough of this!
O: No you haven't.
(door slam)

:D

[maddog17]

just to show the noob in me.... what the hell does atmo mean? :crap:

[e-RICHIE]

just to show the noob in me.... what the hell does atmo mean? :crap:
davids to the white courtesy phone atmo.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2091/2235069660_83edbc7315_b.jpg

[davids]

just to show the noob in me.... what the hell does atmo mean? :crap:Paging (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=445433&postcount=13) maddog17.

[Pete Serotta]

We all have said too much... ME INCLUDED........