Latest on Tyler from Associated Press

[BumbleBeeDave]

This came over the AP wire this morning.

I think he is screwed. So much for any kind of due process. I may be accused of being a cheerleader for "our" guys, but this reminds me of someone accused of child molestation. It doesn't matter if you prove yourself innocent or not--your life is still ruined.

BBDave

_________________

s0224 ----- r s BC-CYC--HamiltonInvestig 09-22 0497
N.
BC-CYC--Hamilton Investigation,0506
Hamilton suspended by pro cycling team
By ERICA BULMAN
AP Sports Writer
GENEVA (AP) _ Olympic cycling champion Tyler Hamilton was
suspended Wednesday by his pro team, which threatened to fire him
if he can't prove he's innocent of blood doping.
Hamilton could lose his time-trial gold medal from the Athens
Games if backup tests confirm results from earlier tests at the
Olympics and the Spanish Vuelta showing another person's blood in
his system.
He denied receiving a transfusion _ which can boost an athlete's
performance by increasing the amount of oxygen-transporting red
blood cells in his system.
Under the heading "We believe Tyler" in a statement Wednesday,
Phonak team boss Andy Rihs said: "For the moment, we have to
concentrate on the facts. These seem to speak against Tyler. But so
long as we're not 100 percent certain that he's guilty of
manipulation, we will believe him."
However, immediately below Rihs's statement, Phonak said
Hamilton's suspension would hold "pending further notice" until
tests and proceedings are completed.
"If Hamilton is not able to prove his innocence, then the
contract will be canceled effective immediately," the statement
said.
The team's stance is a far cry from the staunch support of
Hamilton it showed Tuesday, when Rihs declared he didn't "fire
innocent people," adding that "Tyler is innocent as long as no
one proves the contrary."
Hamilton said he already is losing endorsement deals, though he
wouldn't say with which companies.
"Already it has ruined a lot for me _ my reputation," Hamilton
said. "There are personal sponsors who are pulling out. It's
sad."
He's sponsored by Nike, Oakley Eyewear and Watches, Zipp Wheels,
pedal manufacturer Speedplay, Bell Helmets and energy bar maker
Clif Bar.
Phonak, a Swiss team, was informed by cycling's international
body and the International Olympic Committee that tests at the
Athens Olympics on Aug. 19 and at the Spanish Vuelta on Sept. 11
showed evidence of blood from another person.
The International Cycling Union had informed cyclists at the
start of the season that tests for blood doping and Human Growth
Hormone were well advanced and probably would be introduced in the
coming months.
"I am 100 percent innocent," Hamilton said Tuesday. "The
results were like a bolt of lightning out of the blue for me. I
have no idea what has happened. It must be some kind of
manipulation."
A record 24 athletes were caught with doping violations at the
Aug. 13-29 Olympic Games. Three athletes had gold medals revoked
for doping in Athens.
Hamilton was the only American cyclist to win a gold medal in
Athens, and he called that victory "the highlight of my career, by
far."
If he is disqualified, the gold medal would go to Russia's
Viatcheslav Ekimov, with American Bobby Julich moving up to silver
and Australia's Michael Rogers to the bronze.
_______________

Photos:

1) US cyclist Tyler Hamilton of Swiss team Phonak, left, and Andy Rihs, right, chairman of the board of Swiss company Phonak, ponder a journalist's question during a press conference in Regensdorf, Switzerland, on Tuesday, Sept 21, 2004. Hamilton, the Olympic time-trial champion, declared his innocence Tuesday after his Phonak cycling team said he's being investigated for possible blood doping and could be stripped of his gold medal. (AP Photo/ Keystone, Steffen Schmidt)

2) US cyclist Tyler Hamilton of Swiss team Phonak, left, gestures as he sits at the side of Andy Rihs, chairman of the board of Swiss company Phonak, as he answers a question during a press conference in Regensdorf, Switzerland, Tuesday, Sept 21, 2004. Hamilton, the Olympic time-trial champion, declared his innocence Tuesday after his Phonak cycling team said he's being investigated for possible blood doping and could be stripped of his gold medal. (AP Photo/Keystone, Steffen Schmidt)

[Big Dan]

You are right BB, they are throwing the book at Tyler.. :confused:
Pretty much the house of cards is coming apart...Hamilton is lucky the French didn't take him in like Millar...That could have been ugly..

[Richard]

Perhaps the leadership at Phonak did some research into the accuracy of these tests and could reach only one conclusion. Suspension, but not firing, would seem to be an allowance for "due process" to occur.

After all, this is the result of two independent blood tests. Even if there were a 2% error in each, two independent tests, both showing the same result would, I believe, create an error probabilty of about .04%. Statisticians please correct my error.

[bostondrunk]

So even if both tests are positive, is there still the question of whether the test is valid or not?
Hey, he said he wouldn't risk his wife's life.....maybe its his wife's blood!! :confused:

Ineresting to see how it plays out. I suspect he'll get the boot from the team. And then what? Does he sue the UCI? Whats the use of going to court to appeal? Either they believe the tests are valid or not...Its not like he was simply accused, or that they found drugs in his possesion but no positive test...........the guy actually tested positive. Not a whole lot to argue about......-if- the test is valid..

[Len J]

I may be mistaken, but doesn't Phonak have to "suspend" any rider that the UCI notifies has flunked a test in order to keep their UCI certification (or whatever they call it). I thought I read this somewhere.

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . experience has shown that "due process" in these cases and in the current atmosphere doesn't mean much.

So what would Tyler do exactly to fight these charges? Obviously he should have his own commissioned blood tests done, and I imagine he would hire whatever help he could to concentrate on the possibilities of shoddy test procedures or downright tampering.

But in any event, I am afraid he is going to find himself alone in trying to defend himself. His "friends" are going to disappear and he will be fighting what is, at this point, largely circumstantial evidence until the UCI actually releases the lab reports total text so it is subject to public scrutiny. After all, there were no empty vials found in his apartment or anything. He is fighting a press release.

Give it another 24-48 hours to see what else develops. I am particularly interested to see any statements from sponsors, other cyclists--or his "friend" Lance.

BBDave

[M_A_Martin]

Lets see...Do I have this wrong? Phonak has a team captain who has dropped out of two major races and can't seem to stay on top of his bike, and who has now had two supposedly valid tests return positive for doping. *AND* they have Floyd coming on board...

Hmmm, looks like a business decision in the making to me. They might totally believe him...but this gives them an out.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . from VeloNews today. I do not vouch in any way for its authenticity, but it does do a good job of listing some of the same questions I have vis-a-vis the clinical history of the tests that are being used.

BBDave

___________

Weird Science
Editors,
Re: Detection of Homologous blood doping.

I have searched the scientific literature for publications on this methodology. I have found a single publication, by Nelson et al. November 2003 Haematologica 1284-1295 in which they describe using this technology on a total of 25 patients. It appears to me that, given the difficulties in getting antibody dilutions correct for flow cytometry analysis and the relative novelty of this technology and its lack of validation in other laboratories, that this should be treated as an experimental technology. It is by no means foolproof. Using the results of such a novel technique to make decisions that threaten the career of any professional cyclist, let alone one of Tyler Hamilton's stature, is outrageous. To make such results public before further testing can be done is libelous.

Several questions must be asked at this point:

* How valid is the test on a larger population of athletes and normal people?
* Can the tests be reproduced in other labs not associated with the one who published the above paper?
* Is there any other evidence for blood doping such as high hematocrit or large changes in hematocrit from test to test?
* If the test is working is there another possible source of the homologous blood such as surgical procedures?

I hope that Tyler Hamilton can be cleared of this charge as quickly as possible and that there is no lasting taint from this scandal.

Sincerely,
David J. Heard, Ph.D (Biochemistry)
Paris France

[Too Tall]

In the USA rule of law is: innocent until proven guilty. He's not in Kansas Toto! He's guilty until he proves he is innocent...yah gotta get wit' the mindset.

[PsyDoc]

The Science and Industry Against Blood doping website has some interesting information.

http://www.siab.ws/index.htm

[Richard]

Thanks for the link. To quote:

"Specialists at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney have collaborated with SIAB to develop an effective method to detect homologous blood transfusion. Every red cell of an individual has an identical and specific spectrum of blood group antigens which is under genetic control, and the likelihood of finding a donor with an identical "antigen profile" is remote. Therefore the test uses flow cytometry to identify the antigen profile of circulating red cells, and can highlight the small populations of donated red cells that either express or are missing a specific antigen. The methodology (published in the journal Haematologica) is theoretically capable of detecting as little as one teaspoon of foreign blood, and therefore can detect transfusion weeks and months after an athlete has transfused."

I certainly don't have the credentials of a PhD, but this and the development time of 5 years cited in the article on cycling news, plus two independent sample results, would lead me to conclude in the test results robustness. I guess time will tell.

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<< . . . weeks and months after an athlete has transfused.">>>

How many months? Unless that aspect can be nailed down, then I would wonder when the last time was Tyler had surgery. After last year's tour for his collarbone?

I also wonder what "flow cytometry" is? . . .

BBDave

[PsyDoc]

...but the average life cycle of red blood cells is 120 days for men.

[Fred D]

If you can't believe Tyler, who can you believe? His character has proven to be pretty good in the past, if you have read any of his journals on Velo news. Let's not trash him before we know for sure.

[vaxn8r]

<<< . . . weeks and months after an athlete has transfused.">>>

How many months? Unless that aspect can be nailed down, then I would wonder when the last time was Tyler had surgery. After last year's tour for his collarbone?

I also wonder what "flow cytometry" is? . . .

BBDave


I know you are just trying to be fair Dave, but try to be objective too. There is little liklihood of Tyler, or anyone else, needing a transufusion for 99% of surgical procedures. Collarbone would be included. If he had a major, 6 hour procedure, he might need blood. Simple enough to reveiw his medical records. Did he have a transfusion or not? With his racing schedule this year, I doubt he had a procedure severe enough to need blood transfusion.

Comparing this to proving your innocence to a child molestation charge is a huge stretch. With child molestation there is rarely hard evidence and rarely a witness. It's usually one parent claiming the other did it. There actually is hard evidence to look at in Tyler's case.

The truth will come out. He may never admit it but it will come out.

Just an aside. Here in Eugene a local police officer was found guilty of rape and abuse of multiple women over the last 7-8 years. To this day he claims he's an innocent victim. He has his family convinced as well as most members of his church. No one that knows him would believe it. The problem is there are about 20 women (most of them poor, drug users, prostitutes etc.) in the community who have claimed abuse by him over the years. One saved some clothes with his seminal residue (I didn't say they were stupid). Guess what? Perfect match. 1 in a gazillion chance it was someone else's semen. Doesn't matter. The guy claims he was framed and a target of a smear. He sounds believable. The evidence says no.

I'm all for waiting it out for all of the evidence. But the way it's heading with the test results and two independent labs and all. It does not look good for Tyler.

BTW, what do you mean by "so much for due process"? Should the story not have been leaked. Should his team have not suspended him? He can't race anyway until it's all final. I guess I dont' get how you would have done this differently.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . my opinion that he's not going to get any. Once the announcement is made, you're DONE, baby. It really IS "guilty until proven innocent--and STILL guilty even then!" There may be a formal hearing where he gets to present his side, but that's pretty much formality. He's ALREADY convicted by the process and publicity itself.

That's also what I meant about the child molester comparison. Once the accusation is made and publicized, you're DONE, baby. Doesn't matter if the victim recants later or not. Your life is still ruined.

I am admittedly grasping at a few straws here because I admit to being a great admirer of Tyler, as are many others. But I will ALSO be the first to admit that after the first 48 hours, if there has not been some sort of magnificent exonerating revelation revealed, then it's pretty much a done deal, and the clock is ticking . . .

BBDave

[Kevin]

If he fails the back-up test, and has no explanation, then he is cooked. Could Lemond have been right? Have the tests caught up with the drugs?

Kevin

[pddebacker]

I'm amazed at the double-standards people will exhibit simply due to
nationalism or the sound-bytes that they receive from the media. There
was not nearly this much wailing and gnashing of teeth when David
Millar got nailed. When Carmenzind got popped I don't recall seeing
a single post. Just because TH happens to be an US citizen he is
automatically presumed by the vast majority of other US citizens to
be innocent - obviously he is being framed or the tests that are being
used are faulty.

Does anyone here personally know Tyler? Train with him? Live with
him? Just because he comes off as an honest individual in the press
doesn't make him so. I'm not saying that he isn't - I don't know the
man. But making judgements on him based on what the media has
reported is silly. Almost as silly is assuming he is innocent because
he is one of 'our boys' and 'our boys would never do anything like
that.' Wake up - 'our boys' do it all the time. At a local level, at a
national level and at a world level. In cycling, track, soccer, baseball,
football, basketball, swimming, etc. etc. etc.

Go take a look at http://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr/anuauire.html

It's in french but the message reads pretty clearly.

[TmcDet]

IOC now claims their test came back as suspicious and then they sent it to a panel of experts and that is why it took so long to the get the results
cycling news story here (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/sep04/sep22news3)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . greatly admire Millar or Camenzind. In fact, it did not particularly surprise me at all the Millar got nailed. But I do respect and admire Tyler. If he is indeed guilty, then that’s life. But forgive me if I DO express just a teeny bit of loyalty to someone I admire.

BBDave

[bcm119]

The question looms... if he was doping, do you not admire him anymore? Is he not who you thought he was?

[vaxn8r]

This came over the AP wire this morning.

I think he is screwed. So much for any kind of due process. I may be accused of being a cheerleader for "our" guys, but this reminds me of someone accused of child molestation. It doesn't matter if you prove yourself innocent or not--your life is still ruined.

BBDave


I still have a problem with this line of reasoning. The reason you are screwed either way with a child molestation charge is because there is never any proof. There is no way to prove you are innoncent. There's a ton of emotion involved and people choose sides based on who they like. This is not the same thing. Either he can prove he had surgery and a blood transfusion was indicated, or he can prove the test was flawed. But there is hard data to look at in his case. IMO, if the data is proved wrong, why wouldn't he get his team and sponsorships back? I think he would. I will say if he gets off on a technicality, like somebody didn't report it within the specified 30 day period or something like that, then no, I think public opinion would treat him like OJ.

[Dekonick]

Hey - what about this part of the story?

If he is guilty (I dont doubt it...)
1)how did he get the blood? (you cant use a kitchen knife...you gotta have medical knowledge to obtain the blood, type and cross it, save it, and then infuse it)

WHO did it? The doctors who provide this treatment are the people that deserve persecution. Doping is a crummy part of the sport. It sucks. The pressures must be immense - but - somehow the athlete first has to get the drugs / equipment / treatment - stop the supply and you stop the problem. You need to look beyond the athlete. Look to the source. (Cmon people, Ill bet most teams have managers who turn a blind eye, and even 'help' athletes meet the 'right' people to get the 'proper' stuff)

Someone should start hitting the teams, the managers, the doctors, the $$$ behind the problem. Everyone is out to blame the athlete/addict - but in reality its the 'pusher' that is the true problem.

Anyone disagree?

Side note; if it is proved that TH did indeed dope, then I say throw the book at him. Take his medal, etc... but do the same test on every athlete that competes! - and then look for the sources...the pushers...the true problem.

[lithiapark]

I cannot find much of the details of how this testing is done. Nor am I an expert in the science of flow cytometry. The knowledge I have of it, and of immunochemically marking cells, doesn't lead me to believe these tests are infallable. Given the inherent diversity of immunologic systems, there seems a possibility that this is a false positive. I will not speculate on the magnitude of this possibility, but will note that many tests in biology are not of the specificity of DNA testing, and that "normal" only means "within 2 standard deviations from the mean". There are those amongst us with a normal, non epo induced/supplemental transfusion hematocrit of more than 50%.

Since homologous blood transfusion is only going to be of benefit if you raise your hematocrit (or you discard your own blood and replace it with that containing a mutation of hemoglobin that is more efficience at oxygen delivery), there should at some point in the lab data trail of Tyler that shows a significant change in average hematocrit, I think others have noted this. Hematocrit can in many people be increased by oxygen deprevation, which is not illegal, and this could still be an alternative explanation.

It would seem that time will allow Tyler the means of proving his innocence. Within 6 months any non-Tyler blood cells should have outlived their usefullness and been discarded by the body. IF the tests remain absolutely unchanged, AND he still has "inconsistencies" in his blood then he has an abnormal reaction to the test, a false positive. It would seem likely that he could continue to obtain donar blood from the exact same source during this time, I would think the donar would be disinclined to continue contributing in this atmosphere.

I'd like to see how Tyler's blood tests in 6 months. I don't consider myself a fan of Tyler, he falls off too much for my taste, but I am inherently skeptical of new tests in biology/medicine being used as an perfect yardstick for any individual.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . from lithia. It would be a good way to prove one way or the other.

Unfortunately, the UCI is unlikely to follow this line of “proving” the validity of their test. At this point, as it is in any of these cases, once the UCI has announced the allegedly “positive” test, it ceases to become just an objective matter. It starts to become a matter of the UCI’s pride and reputation, and it is in the organization’s best interests to prove the offender guilty at all costs. They don’t give a hoot in hell about being fair to the accused because it has become contrary to their OWN self-interest.

This is the same organizational prejudice that results in stories you see about imprisoned “criminals” who are suddenly proved innocent years later when DNA testing methods are perfected and applied to their cases. The DA’s in these cases are not paid to get at the real truth--they are elected and paid to get convictions and, unfortunately, too often don’t let facts get in the way of that pursuit.

Tyler himself could propose this course of action, but I doubt the UCI would go along for the reasons outlined above. If he does get the ongoing tests independently and his blood retains the same unusual profile, they could always just claim that Tyler is secretly getting more blood somewhere, and once again the burden would be on him to prove that he had not. The only way I think he could really do that to their satisfaction would be to pull a “David Blayne” like that magician who lived in the glass box hung from a crane for 30 days earlier this year.

The other issue that Lithia raises to good effect is how medically obtuse these testing procedures are. They involve technical issues and clinical language that quickly make laymen’s eyes glaze over. Once again this is the same thing you see in any criminal trial that involves psychological or medical issues. The prosecution hires THEIR “expert witnesses” and the defense hires THEIR “expert witnesses” and away we go . . .

I am not totally sure at this time where the point would be where I would stop believing Tyler. But I do know I haven’t reached it yet. I still tend to agree with Johny in the other thread--nationalism aside, something still just doesn’t smell right here.

BBDave

[Richard]

Excerpt from an Australian newspaper:

"...While Hamilton's supporters yesterday questioned the validity of the
new test, Ashenden, who oversaw the research, said it was very
reliable.

"The test has been used for a decade in hospitals to detect
feto-maternal haemorrhage - if they get it wrong it is a life or death
situation," Ashenden [the coordinator of test development] said yesterday.

"They don't get it wrong; the test works.

"If the sample shows positive then that person has someone else's
blood in their circulation, there is no question, there is no doubt,
there is no grey area."

Before the Olympics, the World Anti-Doping Agency and the IOC came to
an agreement with RPA Hospital to implement the test.

While WADA head **** Pound had warned athletes new tests would be
introduced at the Olympics, he didn't say which ones.

"That test wasn't announced quite deliberately," Ashenden said..."

The link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10848010%255E2722,00.html

[lithiapark]

Velonews just had a report that Tylers IOC B sample test was negative, both UCI tests, A and B, were positive. This doesn't strike me as a very good test. If it were indicating a true positive only 75% of the time, this seems a little shaky to be making decisions of this magnitude on.