SRAM Red help..

[Z3c]

Ok, so I decided to try out this stuff and so far I am pretty frustrated. I have it on a a Cervelo SLC-SL, professionally assembled. Anyway, my issue is that I cannot consistently downshift(easier cog) without either going 2 cogs or 1.5. So I am having to fix my downshifts most of the time. Certainly may be operator error, I am very Shimano trained. I am running a DA cassette and the SRAM chain; wondering if that is part of the problem. Red cassette will not fit on DT 190 hubs.. I just spent some time working with it, adjusted cable tension but no real gain on a short test ride.

Any ideas from you successful leapers?

TIA,

Scott

[flux]

I don't understand. You are having trouble shifting into one easier gear at a time or one harder gear at a time? One tap is all you need to click into a harder gear and two taps is what it takes to go a gear easier.

[Z3c]

I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. 2 equal taps will yield a change to 2 faster/smaller cogs. You don't push twice for an easier cog, you push more/further. My problem is that I end up getting more of a downshift(easier) than I want. Upshifts, faster/smaller cogs, are not an issue at all.

Scott

[flux]

I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. 2 equal taps will yield a change to 2 faster/smaller cogs. You don't push twice for an easier cog, you push more/further. My problem is that I end up getting more of a downshift(easier) than I want. Upshifts, faster/smaller cogs, are not an issue at all.

Scott

It's a matter of getting used to not overshifting. Give it time.

Good Luck.

Edit: I meant two "clicks" not "taps" in my original post.

[roman meal]

what flux said. not throwing the lever so far like shimano requires you helps.

[Too Tall]

Could be your fingers are used to overshifting. Shimano is quite forgiving and SRAM not so much. Do you have the r.mech cable routed thru the groove? Check the videos on their website...velly good. This stuff works, I'm leapin'.

[roman meal]

how do you like yer cranks, tt?

[justinf]

+1 TT, I felt like an idiot when I first set mine up because I missed the cable groove on the RD. This might be the trouble if it's more than an overshifting issue.

[Chris]

eBay

[Z3c]

Thanks for the thoughts; I'll check the cable groove thing in the morning.. Chris-your option is certainly one I am considering..

Scott

[Chris]

I obviously was half kidding. I don't mean to disparage SRAM since I am a big fan of their mountain bike stuff and since I am not sure that I know how to spell disparage. Having said that, the shifting doesn't make sense to me. It seems like they just didn't have any other good options so they found a way to make one lever shift both ways. It does not seem intuitive at all like the others are. Beyond that, the difficulties that they have had with quality control are concerning. Brake recalls and exploding derailleurs... Now, I read that all of the red rear derailleurs have been replaced with force in the pro peloton, but there isn't a recall for the average joe like you or me. That doesn't make sense either.

[RudAwkning]

We were having issues with FD rub while in the small chainring on a Sram Red build. I had read that Red was finally going to have "trim" so I thought it was something I was doing wrong.

We put in a call to Sram and didn't get a response. I then called up Waterford, as a few of their guys are huge purveryors of the stuff and maybe could shed some light. No light was shed.

A few hours later we get a call from the head of Sram North America, who said that Richard Schwinn asked him to call us. We told him the issues we were having with FD trim, and his response was that "The average consumer doesn't understand trim, so we don't offer it." But I call bull*****, because any "consumer" who can afford a $2000 gruppo sure as he!l knows what trim is and expects it. And why do they offer trim in the big ring, but not the little ring if the consumer "doesn't understand trim" at all?

To the gentlman's credit, he heads a portion of a corporation and isn't an engineer. He probably just fed us the marketing line. He was also very polite with us on the phone. Campy would have told us to that the problem was with our frame geometry or something.

I do like the set screw for the brake levers though :D

[SoCalSteve]

We were having issues with FD rub while in the small chainring on a Sram Red build. I had read that Red was finally going to have "trim" so I thought it was something I was doing wrong.

We put in a call to Sram and didn't get a response. I then called up Waterford, as a few of their guys are huge purveryors of the stuff and maybe could shed some light. No light was shed.

A few hours later we get a call from the head of Sram North America, who said that Richard Schwinn asked him to call us. We told him the issues we were having with FD trim, and his response was that "The average consumer doesn't understand trim, so we don't offer it." But I call bull*****, because any "consumer" who can afford a $2000 gruppo sure as he!l knows what trim is and expects it. And why do they offer trim in the big ring, but not the little ring if the consumer "doesn't understand trim" at all?

To the gentlman's credit, he heads a portion of a corporation and isn't an engineer. He probably just fed us the marketing line. He was also very polite with us on the phone. Campy would have told us to that the problem was with our frame geometry or something.

I do like the set screw for the brake levers though :D


Like deja vu! I had this same thought when I went and tried Red...

I posted my experience here and was shot down big time saying I was wrong...I was NOT wrong.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=42295

That's why I didnt "make the leap".

Steve

[Bruce K]

Funny, my Red trims when in the big ring (1 tap only as 2 gets you a shift to the small ring) so I can get all the way back to the 26t cog.

Force goes the other way (from the small ring).

The "double shift" is a feature of SRAM (so I was told on an early demo ride)but it takes a little practice to go only 1 vs 2 cogs.

After a few rides I figured out the "touch" to shift either 1 or 2 cogs.

I have a friend who is obviously smarter than I who tried out my Ottrott and figured it out in about 5 miles.

Hang in there a bit.

BK

[M.Sommers]

eBay

Very funny. :)

[pdxmech13]

I just installed red and put my first 80 miler on the stuff. It is very intuitive and I think it could be somewhat hard to over shift say like campy. The shifting overall seems to be somewhere between shimano and campy. Oh and I only reach for the campy thumb lever 1. :D :beer:

[jhcakilmer]

I obviously was half kidding. I don't mean to disparage SRAM since I am a big fan of their mountain bike stuff and since I am not sure that I know how to spell disparage. Having said that, the shifting doesn't make sense to me. It seems like they just didn't have any other good options so they found a way to make one lever shift both ways. It does not seem intuitive at all like the others are. Beyond that, the difficulties that they have had with quality control are concerning. Brake recalls and exploding derailleurs... Now, I read that all of the red rear derailleurs have been replaced with force in the pro peloton, but there isn't a recall for the average joe like you or me. That doesn't make sense either.

+1...I don't get the big advantage with the one lever shifting. I like it separated, especially because I like being able to brake, and down-shift at the same time.

Seems like that's the way 7900 stuff is going too, why??

[RudAwkning]

Like deja vu! I had this same thought when I went and tried Red...

I posted my experience here and was shot down big time saying I was wrong...I was NOT wrong.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=42295

That's why I didnt "make the leap".

Steve

Thanks for the link to that thread. Very informative. It looks like everything I wanted to know has been covered.

Our customer was rather insistent on getting RED (all of his sprocket head friends were yelling "make the leap!") so it's not like we pressured him into the sale.

I set the bike up right but the customer will probably want to know why he can't use the last 2 or 3 cogs with the inner ring. I can feed him the Sram corporate line of "you're too ignorant to understand trim, so you won't need it".

I was really shocked when the Sram Executive told us that. Never tell a shop that their customers are too stupid to receive a feature found on an equivalently priced gruppo from another manufacturer. That's really just shooting yourself in the foot.

And for the record, this Red gruppo went on a crossbike with 43 chainstays. But regardless of chainstay length, bb drop, STA, etc., we should NEVER have to build a frame around the >>limitations<< of the components. That's just stupid.

They spent ALL that money on 5,000,000 banners at Sea Otter but couldn't engineer FD trim......sad.

[pdxmech13]

Trim in the lower chainring is a non issue. You will get rubbing on a 39 tooth chainring while in the 2 highest gears from the outter ring anyway. If one finds them in this combination it is better to be in the 53 anyway. This rule is especially true with folks running a compact crank.

[e-RICHIE]

Trim in the lower chainring is a non issue. You will get rubbing on a 39 tooth chainring while in the 2 highest gears from the outter ring anyway. If one finds them in this combination it is better to be in the 53 anyway. This rule is especially true with folks running a compact crank.
mine doesn't rub in the 12.
i set the overall rotation of the cage so that it clears cog #2
and only after that did i set the screw to clear the 26 atmo.
i love my fucingk sram red.

[Z3c]

All,

Ironically, I am not having any issues related to trim. Mean while, back at the original post, any thoughts on my shifting issues? Is the mix of shimano cassette and a red chain causing my problems?

Scott

[e-RICHIE]

All,

Ironically, I am not having any issues related to trim.

Scott
wrong forum atmo.

[swoop]

i likes trim.

[Z3c]

Imperfection is perfection..

[dtandy]

Z3c,

I'm running Red on one of my bikes with a Shimano Dura Ace cassette and a SRAM 1090 chain. It shifts just fine and I've not seen anything like the problems you're having. The cable routing at the rear der is a bit unusual so you may want to check that if you haven't already.

Also, I have SRAM Force with a Dura Ace cassette with a 1090 chain on my other bike. No issues there, either.

I will say that Red is more sensitive when it comes to shifting to an easier gear relative to Force. I just got my Red bike built up last week and even though I have a lot of miles on my Force bike and am very comfortable with double tap shifting, I did find myself missing shifts on my Red bike in the sense that I was shifting two gears when I intended to shift only one (only when shifting to easier gears, that is).

As for trim issues, I haven't had any problems. With that said, I think the FD would likely rub in a 34-12 combo but in my style of riding I pretty much always shift to the 50 before finding myself in the 34-12 combo.

I like the SRAM road stuff and have no regrets after changing from Shimano (which worked great as well, just wanted to try something different).

Good luck,

Dave

[pdxmech13]

....trim isn't the issue here dude !

[Z3c]

Trim issues belong on the pink thread..

C'mon, someone had to say it!

Scott

[Charles M]

Best Trim I've ever had? A Tiso front DER works better with SRAM's trim than a SRAM front der does.

A Tiso rear SHIMANO type DER does not work but a Campy type Tiso does.
A wipperman chain works in a standard all- RED set up and using a campy wheel. It doesn't work as well in a Tiso Set up using Red cassette (standard or power dome) but does using a campy wheel.

The Ride on cable housings (stock sram) need to be cut smooth and firmly in the cable stops or you can get some play as the ends compress and release. Jagwire (Rip) cable and housing gives better shifting than stock SRAM.

Another note is that I've run a YBN (SOULCHAIN) sl in your set up and it worked better than SRAM's chain did.

I think the harder edged pick ups grab better.

[benb]

Take a Shimano Shifter apart.

Take an SRAM shifter apart.

Put the SRAM shifter back together.

Buy a new Shimano Shifter.

Now you "Get it".

[Too Tall]

Best Trim I've ever had? A Tiso front DER works better with SRAM's trim than a SRAM front der does.

A Tiso rear SHIMANO type DER does not work but a Campy type Tiso does.
A wipperman chain works in a standard all- RED set up and using a campy wheel. It doesn't work as well in a Tiso Set up using Red cassette (standard or power dome) but does using a campy wheel.

The Ride on cable housings (stock sram) need to be cut smooth and firmly in the cable stops or you can get some play as the ends compress and release. Jagwire (Rip) cable and housing gives better shifting than stock SRAM.

Another note is that I've run a YBN (SOULCHAIN) sl in your set up and it worked better than SRAM's chain did.

I think the harder edged pick ups grab better.
PezTech, thanks that's useful. Where are you located?

[justinf]

I'm liking the Red so far. 2 mountains made of molehills by people who haven't ridden the group:
1) trim
2) double tap shifting

You just need to try it before postulatin'.

It's really good stuff (as is Record/Chorus and Dura Ace). My Red is still a little on the noisy side comparatively, but I'm not done working out the kinks.

I enjoyed that Peztech post too, thanks.

[rpm]

I've been riding SRAM Force with Red levers, and I have to say I'm not in love with it. I can use, if I'm so inclined, all the gears on the big ring without chain rub, but I get chain rub on all but the three largest gears when using the little ring, and I just had my LBS adjust it. I've heard that replacing the SRAM front derailleur with a Dura Ace cures the chain rub, but I don't know whether that's true. The shifting action seems clunkier and noisier than Shimano, too.

And one last annoyance thatis a problem with Force, but not with Red: There is no adjustment screw on the brake calipers. There are flats that you can use a cone wrench on, but it's really primitive not to be able to have a screw adjustment.

[velosport]

Take a Shimano Shifter apart.

Take an SRAM shifter apart.

Put the SRAM shifter back together.

Buy a new Shimano Shifter.

Now you "Get it".

Funny, I've never had a reason to take a Shimano shifter apart because they work for years.

[Frank Draper]

I've been riding SRAM Force with Red levers, and I have to say I'm not in love with it. I can use, if I'm so inclined, all the gears on the big ring without chain rub, but I get chain rub on all but the three largest gears when using the little ring, and I just had my LBS adjust it. I've heard that replacing the SRAM front derailleur with a Dura Ace cures the chain rub, but I don't know whether that's true. The shifting action seems clunkier and noisier than Shimano, too.

And one last annoyance thatis a problem with Force, but not with Red: There is no adjustment screw on the brake calipers. There are flats that you can use a cone wrench on, but it's really primitive not to be able to have a screw adjustment.

I had my LBS set my front d. at a slight angle and now only have rub in the small ring on the smallest gear. Been riding on Red since Jan. and like them better all the time. Still have Campy Record on my Legend; prefer the Red.

[BdaGhisallo]

jhcakilmer,

Seems like that's the way 7900 stuff is going too, why??

There's no need to worry. Early pics of the 7900 prototype STI levers led to suggestions that 7900 would have some kind of Double Tap but that is no so. It will shift like the 7800 levers do. Besides, SRAM developed DTap because that was the only thing they could think up to get around the patents that Shimano and Campy had on their respective manners of shifting. I can't imagine SRAM granting Shimano a license for DTap but, even moreso, there's no way Shimano would license a variation of a device they pioneered (in terms of mass market appeal and acceptance). Shimano are very wary of licensing from other companies. That's the reason they don't make threadless headsets - they will not use another companies patent and pay for it!

And, about the often heard mantra that Campy, and now SRAM, levers are easily repairable, and Shimano are not - so what? I have been using DA for a good dozen years, and have never had to repair an STI shifter.

[RudAwkning]

I'm liking the Red so far. 2 mountains made of molehills by people who haven't ridden the group:
1) trim
2) double tap shifting

You just need to try it before postulatin'.

It's really good stuff (as is Record/Chorus and Dura Ace). My Red is still a little on the noisy side comparatively, but I'm not done working out the kinks.

I enjoyed that Peztech post too, thanks.

What irritated me more was the Sram Reps. response. I want the Sram stuff to do well. It's what's gonna keep Campy and Sihmano on their toes.

You guys remember when Intel was releasing their processors in 33mhz and 50mhz increments? 266, 300, 333, 366, 400, 450, 500, etc. Then AMD caught up to Intel, and all of a sudden an Intel 1ghz processor was magically possible. I'm hoping that Sram is that same kick in the pants.

But when they tell you that they didn't do something that their competitors do because the consumer isn't smart enough to understand it, it's a bit of a letdown. Because it wasn't an oversight. It was intended. It was done deliberately. And unless enough people say something, it won't be rectified. That sucks.

As a mechanic, I've tweaked and manipulated stuff into working on my own bikes. I bet I could make that FD work if it were on my bike But, for obvious reasons, I can't use certain methods on a customer's bike.

I'm happy that it works for so many of you. But I'm bummed for our customer.

One click DOES make a difference :p

[Charles M]

Phoenix.

And I don't think it wasn't oversight. I think it was the response from someone who simply wanted to have an answer to a question. Sometimes folks just can't say "whoops". And the alternative verbage sounds even worse than "whoops" to everyone but the executive but there's a "king has no clothes" thing that happens... I think you got a version of "how's my tie look to you". But that's just a guess...

At days end, looking at both Campy and Shimano's latest ergonomics, I would say that the thought that both are taking a design lesson from SRAM is a safe "guess"... I also SRAM have come a long way in a short time relative to their competitors and given the complexity of todays equipement...

Maybe the best part (though this thread isn't the best example) is that the other guys are not only taking design tips, but their overall customer service and attitude has improved...

I have freinds at both places and they're good guys, but as a group, I think SRAM's making things better for everyone...

[rpm]

I had my LBS set my front d. at a slight angle and now only have rub in the small ring on the smallest gear. Been riding on Red since Jan. and like them better all the time. Still have Campy Record on my Legend; prefer the Red.

Angled which way?

[e-RICHIE]

Angled which way?
atmo -
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=535143&postcount=20

[Too Tall]

SRAM. Be still my heart.

[RudAwkning]

atmo -
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=535143&postcount=20

First thing I tried. But the der ended up winging out in such a fashion that it disrupted smooth shifting to the big ring.

I ain't done mucking with this stuff yet. I'll figure something out. I'm a wrench. It's what I'm paid to do.....oh wait.....I work pro-bono.....dammit :p

Just frustrated with the corporate line we were handed.

[e-RICHIE]

First thing I tried. But the der ended up winging out in such a fashion that it disrupted smooth shifting to the big ring.

I ain't done mucking with this stuff yet. I'll figure something out. I'm a wrench. It's what I'm paid to do.....oh wait.....I work pro-bono.....dammit :p

Just frustrated with the corporate line we were handed.
haven't read the thread.
what line atmo?

[SoCalSteve]

haven't read the thread.
what line atmo?

ER,

Something along the line of: We didnt add trim because the "non-pro end consumer" doesnt know how to use this feature anyway...

I believe its in this thread, towards the beginning.

Stevce

[e-RICHIE]

ER,

Something along the line of: We didnt add trim because the "non-pro end consumer" doesnt know how to use this feature anyway...

I believe its in this thread, towards the beginning.

Stevce
if you set the der up correctly, you don't need trim atmo.

[e-RICHIE]

.if you set the der up correctly, you don't need trim atmo.
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[RudAwkning]

.

Well, now you're starting to sound like a Campy rep. :p

Dear "manufacturer", We're having trouble with XXXXXXX. Can you please assist?

SRAM - "We didn't offer that because the consumer is too dumb to use it."

CAMPY - "You're obviously doing something wrong because we're Campy and we come from the same country as the Pope. We're infallible!!!!"

SHIMANO - "Send the part back. Once we've received the part, we'll send you back the same part, new in box, which still won't work."

[e-RICHIE]

Well, now you're starting to sound like a Campy rep. :p

Dear "manufacturer", We're having trouble with XXXXXXX. Can you please assist?

SRAM - "We didn't offer that because the consumer is too dumb to use it."

CAMPY - "You're obviously doing something wrong because we're Campy and we come from the same country as the Pope. We're infallible!!!!"

SHIMANO - "Send the part back. Once we've received the part, we'll send you back the same part, new in box, which still won't work."
these are your words or the company to whom (which?) they're attributed atmo?

[myette10]

what flux said. not throwing the lever so far like shimano requires you helps.
what flux and roman said. stop at the second click for one easier gear, at the third click for two easier gears and at the fourth click for three easier gears.

[RudAwkning]

these are your words or the company to whom (which?) they're attributed atmo?

These are the responses (and my experiences) from the 3 big ones, with a little bit of cynicism to spice things up. Yes, I'm putting my words in their mouths, but it's more or less the response I've gotten from them. And yes, Campy has been the worst to deal with and the most arrogant and has the most awful turnaround times on repairs (took them 3 months to get a rear wheel back to us!).

I have much more success contacting our distributors about said products than contacting the actual manufacturers about their own products.

I just wanna make the bikes "go".

[e-RICHIE]

These are the responses (and my experiences) from the 3 big ones, with a little bit of cynicism to spice things up. Yes, I'm putting my words in their mouths, but it's more or less the response I've gotten from them. And yes, Campy has been the worst to deal with and the most arrogant and has the most awful turnaround times on repairs (took them 3 months to get a rear wheel back to us!).

I have much more success contacting our distributors about said products than contacting the actual manufacturers about their own products.

I just wanna make the bikes "go".
i didn't follow your sram travails; how hard can
it be to properly set up a front changer atmo?

[RudAwkning]

i didn't follow your sram travails; how hard can
it be to properly set up a front changer atmo?

PM Sent.

[Too Tall]

i didn't follow your sram travails; how hard can
it be to properly set up a front changer atmo?

That's why they pay me the big money honey :cool:

If this is legit I don't know. Once the limters are set, angle is correct and you get rub, try adjusting cable slack. Try it.

Oooo, Alton Brown is on TV. Gooot too gooo.

[dbrk]

I'm late to this party but I thought I might chime in with a Red. I've been listening closely since Atmo made the leapmo. Given how Tulliomo he has been over the years (and my regard for his opinion), well...onmo. So a few weeks back I rode Red for the first time. It was a bit noisy for some reason none of us could figure but it shifted sweetly and it took me about 10 seconds to get the hang of it.

Not for anything, I have bikes with just about every kind of changer, including the three modern shifter on the lever styles at different levels. I've never noticed much difference in quality between top and third levels on either Shimano or Campagnolo.

This week I swapped out to Red on one of my modern race bikes. It fell on, it was that easy to set up (especially after I'd seen Justin do it). I'm using an FSA compact crank, a braze-on front. Easy. I get all the gears. In fact, I guess I don't understand how it wouldn't work perfectly. Today I rode for a coupla' hours. I think what I like best are the ergonomics of the levers. I find the 7800 Shimano too large, round, and knobby. I prefer Campagnolo's ergonomics to Shimano, but I think SRAM now has it all over them both. All I can say is that I hope SRAM doesn't go changing the shape of their levers. I have relatively small hands but these seem right for me. As for the difference shifting up and down, I found that obvious. I made a point of shifting under load and the rest: perfect. I tried to find a bad gear: couldn't. Everything worked. It was like driving a Cadillac. Shift? You noticed? (Even Rolls Royce uses Cadillac transmissions, right?)

I can't say it takes one iota of skill to use any of these modern shifters. I mean, if they are properly set up, you shift. Duh. Give me friction, a Paris-Roubaix, or Cyclo any day. Those are way more fun to _use_ because they require a bit of skill. But if I go shift-on-the-lever again, it'll be SRAM. I've some Force bits coming and I'm wondering if there will be much difference in comparison to Red. Anyone?

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

red forever atmo -

[SoCalSteve]

red forever atmo -

Until something new and different (maybe even better) comes along and then you make the "leap-mo" to it...

Just sayin'

Steve

[e-RICHIE]

.Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

Until something new and different (maybe even better) comes along and then you make the "leap-mo" to it...

Just sayin'

Steve

[bostondrunk]

What about the 'issues' with the red rear derailleur?? It seems the pros had swapped them for Force due to 'compatibility issues'. Another recall on the way??
I was tempted to try Red, but I now want to wait and see DA 7900, and let SRAM sort out the bugs..

[e-RICHIE]

What about the 'issues' with the red rear derailleur?? It seems the pros had swapped them for Force due to 'compatibility issues'. Another recall on the way??
I was tempted to try Red, but I now want to wait and see DA 7900, and let SRAM sort out the bugs..
i love my red atmo.
we averaged 26.6 mph for 60 miles at palmer last sunday atmo.

[bostondrunk]

i love my red atmo.
we averaged 26.6 mph for 60 miles at palmer last sunday atmo.

Nice. What size field? Fun flat race (other than the first 2km..)..

[e-RICHIE]

Nice. What size field? Fun flat race (other than the first 2km..)..
about 100 started in my race atmo -
XXX (http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2008/04/27-Palmer.asp)

[bostondrunk]

about 100 started in my race atmo -
XXX (http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2008/04/27-Palmer.asp)

Damn bro, you beat a lot of cats for someone who rides an old steel bike.
cheers bro

;)

[e-RICHIE]

Damn bro, you beat a lot of cats for someone who rides an old steel bike.
cheers bro

;)
bostondrunk is a genius. follow his advice atmo.

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[shinomaster]

bostondrunk is a genius. follow his advice atmo.


Where the heck is warren MA.??

[e-RICHIE]

Where the heck is warren MA.??
hey shino there's this new thing called the interent and now
you can just fukincg google stuff you don't know about atmo.

[shinomaster]

hey shino there's this new thing called the interent and now
you can just fukincg google stuff you don't know about atmo.


Is it happy_hour there yet?

[shinomaster]

http://www.warrenma.com/