Please explain insoles...

[oldguy00]

I don't understand how some of the custom moldable insoles, like 'sole' brand, really help.
OK, so lets assume I have a fairly flat foot, fallen arches, whatever..

So I heat said insole, step on it, and it thus gets molded into a flat shape.
So it's not offering any support to my foot, it just molds to the flat shape.
OK, so then I shove it into a shoe, and if anything, when my foot pushes onto it in the shoe, it will just conform to the shape of the shoe's sole.
So I'm not understanding how these 'custom' heat moldable soles help at all..

And if you go to a specialist, how do they determine what kind of insole to make for you? If someone has a flat foot, do they automatically need an arch support to lift the foot up?? WHat about the metatarsal arch??
Help!

[JohnS]

I know that the regular Superfeet have a stiff arch support so they keep your arch from flexing too much.

[bluto]

http://www.paragonsports.com/Paragon/images/medium/666-sk8grey_pd.jpg

'nuff said

[quattro]

I just had a custom pair made for my cycling shoes by www.bostonpedorthic.com
Check them out, give Eric a call, he can probably answer many of your questions. If you are ever in Boston he is worth a visit. Good luck.

[R2D2]

I don't understand how some of the custom moldable insoles, like 'sole' brand, really help.
OK, so lets assume I have a fairly flat foot, fallen arches, whatever..

So I heat said insole, step on it, and it thus gets molded into a flat shape.
So it's not offering any support to my foot, it just molds to the flat shape.
OK, so then I shove it into a shoe, and if anything, when my foot pushes onto it in the show, it will just conform to the shape of the shoe's sole.
So I'm not understanding how these 'custom' heat moldable soles help at all..

And if you go to a specialist, how do they determine what kind of insole to make for you? If someone has a flat foot, do they automatically need an arch support to lift the foot up?? WHat about the metatarsal arch??
Help!

I use SOLE inserts. There isn't much to a SIDI insole.
First you heat them and place them in the shoe.
Then you put the shoe on.
The do not flatten out and only slightly mold to your feet.
Primarily the arch comforms to your foot.
I have high arches and with inserts my shoes fit like a glove.

[sailorboy]

I think with many of these various off-the-shelf heatable 'custom' insoles you are instructed to place your foot in a position called 'sub-talar neutral'

without getting further into the medical jargon, this means you put your weight on the insole while it is hot, but you don't let the rear part of your foot under the ankle completely roll in to the inside. If this is not making any sense then I would just recommend one of the color-coded superfeet products that suit you. In most stores that carry them you can step on the different ones, put them in your shoes to try out etc.

I have one of the sole products and several pairs of superfeet. I find them better for cycling, running and other active stuff b/c they are lightweight and supportive enough. I like them even better when I replace the foam top cover with a thin sheet of neoprene from spenco.

Custom is over-rated and probably not necessary for most folks. Go to a specialist for custom only if store-bought stuff (properly chosen) doesn't get you results.

atmo

[oldguy00]

I think with many of these various off-the-shelf heatable 'custom' insoles you are instructed to place your foot in a position called 'sub-talar neutral'

without getting further into the medical jargon, this means you put your weight on the insole while it is hot, but you don't let the rear part of your foot under the ankle completely roll in to the inside. If this is not making any sense then I would just recommend one of the color-coded superfeet products that suit you. In most stores that carry them you can step on the different ones, put them in your shoes to try out etc.

I have one of the sole products and several pairs of superfeet. I find them better for cycling, running and other active stuff b/c they are lightweight and supportive enough. I like them even better when I replace the foam top cover with a thin sheet of neoprene from spenco.

Custom is over-rated and probably not necessary for most folks. Go to a specialist for custom only if store-bought stuff (properly chosen) doesn't get you results.

atmo

OK, so if you have a flat/fallen arch...do you buy a flat insole to match your foot (which, again, I think would just conform to the shape of the shoe), or do you buy one with a high arch support to 'correct' the foot??

[sailorboy]

If they offer it in different heights, choose the one that is closest to your foot arch type. I get where you are saying intuitively that if I have a flat foot, don't I need the highest arch I can buy to jack that thing up? In practice, your feet will be screaming bloddy murder in 10 minutes if you artificially put a big arch where there hasn't been one naturally for, well, probably all your life.

Another thought is that if you are putting these in running shoes, you also need to have a motion control shoe to go with it. Never buy a nice light racing flat that you could never be comfortable with before just because you now have inserts that will support your arch. The shoe and the insert go together. one is much less effective without the other.

With cycling shoes you have to be careful. Some of the euro brands don't accept all orthotics well. Superfeets are narrow enough that I can get them into normal width sidis, although I slack up the straps a lot so that my feet don't cramp. If you already have normal to wide feet, you will need wider cycling shoes to also accomodate an insert. You probably already knew that though ;)

[Too Tall]

I've got a diff. take and agree with S.Boy's description.
The metatarsal areas (the insert) need to be reflected away
from your foot eg. think about what sand looks like after you have
walked across it briskly. What you'll see are a light heel print and
an impression of metatarsals and toes. To achieve that the mold (the
heated mold) needs to have an approx 10-12 degree support under the toes
during the impression, hold knees straight and lower legs directly under knees
at about 90 degrees. That will create the reflected area I'm talking about.

Just my take on it pal.

[benb]

Insoles = Soft floppy product that usually has no forefoot support and a pathetic arch that doesn't do anything.. completely collapse when any weight is applied.

Orthotic = Hard product with shock absorbing layer, big arch (even if you have flat feet the arch will be relatively high to force your foot into a correct arch), likely to have metatarsal support. The person making them needs to line all the bones up in your foot correctly into a neutral position, then the orthotic holds your foot in that position.

The only product I've seen marketed to cyclists that qualifies as a real orthotic is eSoles.

Do you get shin splints easily if you run? Does your foot change shape when you put your weight on it? Sure signs you could benefit from real orthotics.

I've been wearing them for 17 years now.. I have 2 pairs from Boston Pedorthic, one for running/walking, one for cycling. As far as I can tell from the web page eSoles product is very similar... so I'd feel safe recommending those. They're made from a plastic not unlike what a rollerblade wheel is made out of, similar hardness. Only real difference I can see between eSoles & what I have is I think mine are actually made with a harder EVA then anything they offer, and my running ones IIRC have a different EVA for the forefoot & arch. IIRC the cycling ones are a single EVA for the entire foot.

Best thing you can do to save money if you want to try it is make sure your MTB & Road shoes have the exact same last size/shape so you can use one pair of orthotics for both shoes. I ended up buying Specialized shoes cause it's easy to get an MTB pair & Road pair from them that fit exactly the same..

Real orthotics will affect your feet, ankles, knees, and back.. may require adjustments to your bike fit as well. (e.x. if you have wedges to line up your knees those might need to be removed if you wear orthotics.)

These products have come a really long way.. they last a ton longer then they used to and work better then ever. 10 years ago the kind I got would barely last 6 months if I ran every day. Now they are supposed to last around 2 years under heavy running.. I'm hoping to get 4-5 years out of them for cycling.

edit: One other thing.. I view them as sports equipment and haven't bothered.. but if you're lucky you can get the real stuff covered by your medical insurance. If they won't cover them, the purchase can probably be made through a medical flex spending account if your insurance has that.. just set aside the money next time your insurance plan gets renewed. My initial pair followed a trip to the doctor for a running related back problem and was covered by insurance.

[eddief]

knows what he is doing.

http://www.wellfeet.com/index.htm

[benb]

Those prices are high for something you have to make the mold yourself... more margin for error. At $275 for the first pair you should be getting a consult and he should be making the mold for you.

[eddief]

otherwise, yes, you have to trust him and his reputation.

[Kane]

Check out this website for good solid information http://footdoc@wellfeet.com/

I listed my podiatry colleague's website, because he goes into greater detail with greater expertise then I will. The 'custom' step on hot plastic insert is a leap of faith especially for a flat (very pronated) foot.

The decision to intervene is based upon symptoms and intent. Bunions, ankle pain, foot pain, knee pain, ITB Syndrome are all good reasons to intervene. The test of how much correction is needed is based upon that "art of podiatry" and 'the wind lass test', (sp?). Sit in a chair, lean forward and lift your big toe as far as it will go. This movement mimics the movement of the foot in stride. Bending the big toe pulls the plantar fascia tight and it locks the foot in preparation for push off. The amount that your arch lifts during this test is close to the maximal amount that your arch can lift.

However the actual height of a 'custom orthotic' is measured in a non-weight bearing position with the foot in 'neutral'. The foot is casted in this position and a mold is created. The mold of the foot is used to press against the heated plastic sheet that forms the orthotic. This shape is refined and the ART of podiatry is applied to ensure the ideal position of the foot. The person wears the orthotic for a while and if it 'isn't right' further adaptations are made.

Standing on hot plastic in an attempt to create this art in a cheap manner is like 'pissing in the wind'.

Doug's unique contribution to the standing in the box method is that he has the person tie the big toe back so that he can 'estimate' the degree of correction required.

For people who live in the boondocks or areas without a talented podiatrist this may be the best thing available. But, he would always tell you that the best method is to make an appointment at his office.

I remember the day in 1993 (?), when the World Champion Lance, (yes, Lance Armstrong), flew in from Texas to see Doug for some kind of foot problem.

[QUOTE: "What about the metatarsal arch?? Help!

The metatarsal arch intervention is part of the art of podiatry. Usually a 'cookie', (piece of foam) is shaped or purchased to glue onto the tongue of the orthotic/insole cover.

Cheers,

Kane

[jlwdm]

I got the esoles about 2 months ago and like them a lot. The process was good as a technician uses the esole footbed to figure the shape you need. As I have gotten older my feet have gotten longer. I was shown that if I had the esoles in it would raise my arch and I would not need a longer shoe. I was in the market for a new shoe and switched from a normal Sidi to a mega Sidi to get more volume. The esole is then made to fit the exact shoe you wear. Then after the esoles were in the shoes my pedaling action was re-examined with a laser.

[oldguy00]

Do you get shin splints easily if you run? Does your foot change shape when you put your weight on it? .

Yup on both! When I put weight on my foot, my mid foot expands outward and my arch falls (I think)..

I'm gonna check out the wellfeet link. I don't really have a local person that I would trust for sports..

[Crazy Chris]

I went to my local LBS for a Serotta fitting. The technician, who had received training from Andy Pruitt, sold me on a pair of Specialized insoles with two shims (approximately 4 inches long each) for my right shoe. My knee no longer moves from side to side. I do recommend this sort of inexpensive fitting. Orthoses are fine for runners, but I don't believe cycling puts one in the same sort of environment as running, where pronation, etc., create a multitude of damaging problems. Relatively cheap and easy solution for me.

[swoop]

i am big fan of going to a real doctor and getting a real ortho put in your shoes (i think it helps of the doc works with cyclists or is one). if anyone needs a referral for out here.. there's a guy named richard cimedora (sic) that is one hell of a masters road racer that does everyone in la.
plan on leaving your shoes with him.

i think its ridiculous to ride a nice bike and not have real orthodics (sic) in your shoes. all the power you develop on that bike eventually has to get translated through your feet to the pedals... its THE contact point where it all happens.

*take it with a grain.... i'm slow and i have freckles and i hug bikeshops.

[oldguy00]

I tried calling wellfeet yesterday, nobody in. Emailed them yesterday as well, no response. Are they still around?

[Kane]

I tried calling wellfeet yesterday, nobody in. Emailed them yesterday as well, no response. Are they still around?

Doug has two kids and a very busy life on weekends including riding his bikes.
We've got great weather this weekend. :cool:

If you ever see him at the office, don't go for a mtn bike ride with him unless you hawl assss. He is quite fearless on the bike.

cheers,

Kane

[Ti Designs]

Does anybody take into account that cycling shoes are for cycling? When I'm doing a fitting the conditions I see are different than walking or pretty much any means I've seen insoles molded. Cycling is a geared sport, you push down harderon the pedals thay you can in other activities. The shoe is also different, if you're supporting the foot based on flexable shoes you're starting with a lot of invalid data.

I see the foot and ankle as one of three points of stability, along with the hip joint and the tracking of the knee. Beyond the limits of saddle position I can't do much about the hip, nor do I have much say when it comes to knee tracking - knees come with a history. That leaves the foot as the one variable I can change. My first step is to make it a known variable. Some people fit well in their shoes, when they go from turning a nothing gear to pushing a huge gear nothing changes. Most people don't fit that well, their foot sperads to the outside as the foot rolls in. I like Alines for their ability to locate the foot within the shoe. I've found in working with some of my riders at the gym I could tell from across the room when they were or weren't wearing them while using the leg press. With the foot located in the shoe I can start to look at alignment.

On the issue of wedges under cleats vs. support in the shoe, there are a number of things to think about. First, tilting the cleat does nothing if there's no flat surface to push against. SPD wedges make me laugh, you can stack all the wedges you want under there, the cleat holds the pedal at the front and back, so the net change is nothing. In contrast, the new SPD-SL with it's super wide steel top supports the shoe even if the ankle is rotated by 10 degrees. Speedplay pedals do hold the cleat flat, but they ask a lot of the shoe when the foot is rotated. Most carbon soled shoes are up to the task. My basic rule is if it's an issue of the foot changing, the answer is inside the shoe. If it's a need for a fixed starting point other than flat, I use wedges. As for alignment within the pedal stroke, there are all kinds of ways to change both knee tracking and hip position from the foot position.

[oldguy00]

knows what he is doing.

http://www.wellfeet.com/index.htm


Well, just sent $300 off to Doug at Wellfeet. I'm hoping he can help me out, but I'm a little nervous/skeptical about how he can accurately estimate the arch and post required based on the foam box he'll have me use, as opposed to an actual office visit (which is not possible for me, too far away).
Keeping my fingers crossed!

[ciclisto]

As a podiatrist - cyclist who dispenses my own design cycle specific carbon orthotics, I could not pass on this thread. It is true that the interface of the foot/shoe/cleat/pedal does determine your efficiency pedalling if done at a somewhat competitive level. A number of problems can be addressed with orthotics and over the counter arch supports (two different birds). It is true that some minor problems can be addressed with over the counter items like e soles, superfeet etc. It is also true that if your impression(cast etc) is weightbearing you will just duplicate the deformity, but it will help some. But a custom made device, made from a well made casting impression, is made in what has been mentioned as neutral position,this is true and the proper way to cast. What essentially is being done is : The foot is placed in a predetermined beneficial position , where I want the foot to be ideally, then casted, now using the latest fiberglass casting materials. I then have my lab make a custom to rx carbon fiber device. This is then essentially a gasket between foot and shoe, my design is light, efficient,rigid and not usable for walking or running. If you want the best available solution this is the way to go but not all need this degree of refinement. The step in box can work to a degree if you are helped in the position of the foot at impact/impression.

[Kane]

Ciclisto,
I like what you had to say. Dr. Doug Erhenberg, Podiatrist, uses a proprietary method to greatly improve the weight bearing cast. Simply stated he provides a strap to pull the big toe (hallicus) into full extension, thereby locking the arch into its maximum lift. This is than used to estimate the height requirement for the insole. Alternatively, the casting method is used when patient's make an office visit.

I worked with Doug for ten years in clinical practice. (I'm a chiropractor). You would like him. He is quite meticulous and he has a record that would produce a 99% rating on ebay. The one percent is a patient that wanted orthotics for all his Gucci type $500 (+) loafers. Doug tried to convince him that he would be better off using a more supportive shoe with the orthotics. It turns out that no matter how many hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real estate developments you own, it doesn't mean that you know anything about foundations (orthotics).