Who drives less because of gas prices?

[saab2000]

Yup, it's getting spendy. I do drive less and supposedly gasoline sales nationwide are down. Admittedly, I don't have to drive much anyway, but even so, I drive less than I otherwise might if gas were much cheaper.

Who has modified their driving habits?

BTW, I am waiting for the hammer to fall in the airline business.....

[Big Dan]

I get over 35 mph and still try to drive less everyday.

:cool:

[csm]

I try to ride to work a couple/few days each week. the other days I try to come up with reasons to take my company car if not on calls somewhere.

[Fixed]

i ride everywhere




almost
cheers :beer:

[maunahaole]

I bring my motorcycle to work most days. It uses a lot less gas than the car and I get to park on the ground floor of the parking garage instead of the second or third floor with uncertainty as to availability of a spot. I normally only have to fill the tank once every two weeks to the tune of $15-16.

[Fat Robert]

i ride my fixed to school and back 4 days a week, and use it to go to the coffee shop and back on the weekends. those are the only trips I would take anyway....

[M.Sommers]

I spend all my money on Campy cables.

[musgravecycles]

I do drive less. And am seriously entertaining the unthinkable and letting the FJ go to greener pastures...

[CNY rider]

I try to drive less but every day I am reminded that gasoline still doesn't cost enough.

How is that you say?

There's not a single day that I don't see folks sitting idling in the parking lot of the grocery store or convenience store.

When they stop, then the price is right.

[melonyogloo]

Since the gas price got past $3.30 per gallon in Chicago three months ago, I stopped driving. I parked my car in the garage and stopped the insurance. I either ride my bike everywhere or take the commuter train.

[chakatrain]

I drive less.

Regular gas is between $3.89 and $4.09 in San Francisco. I've been biking the 11mi each way trip to SSF at least 3 times per week, and often 4. I use 1 day to drive as a set up day. Works well and I've been loving the exercise. Now if only we could stop the fierce headwind on the way home each day!

[fierte_poser]

I find myself driving more and with large doses of unnecessary throttle.

The sooner we use up the FFs, the sooner we'll come up with viable alternatives.

I'm just doing my part.

Happy earth day.

[dookie]

i drive ~30k/yr (!) and am logging a *lot* more miles on the 30mpg miata than the 17mpg truck. wish i had a job i could ride to...also that central NC had any semblance of public transit.

[chuckroast]

Hey Saab, do you run the plane at part throttle? :)

I can't do anything about my 33 mile commute other than quit or move but I have cut back on my non work related driving.

[RocketDog]

My vehicle has been parked with the gas gauge on E for at least 2 weeks. Not wanting to fill up makes it easy to choose the bike.

[IXXI]

i drive less and am trying to find ways to involve my 3 little ones in commuting without a car, which is harder on them than it is me. the big dummy is helping (its only been a couple weeks), but on cold rainy mornings when its time to take them to school....out to the car. i used to enjoy driving but much less so now; it is purely an alternative (sometimes a necessary one) when the elements or kids schedules or work meetings are against me.

[cadence231]

I'm driving less.
I'm spending all my money on tubulars. head banging against brick wall

[markie]

I am driving more and more. I want to increase demand for gas and drive prices higher. Then people might think twice about the <10mpg SUV's and trucks. :p


I commute every day in Winter, but at this point in the season, with the occasional race and more bike events, I need rest days in the week and have to take the car. :crap:

[Louis]

99% of my driving is to and from work (35 miles each way, 35 mpg average in my '97 Integra)

No driving = No Paycheck

No Paycheck = No $ to pay the bills

Therefore I drive just as much as before.

However, as I have mentioned here before, the higher the cost of gas the more I enjoy watching the yahoos with 8 mpg vehicles and 30 gallon tanks fill up. If they're going to pump carbon into the atmosphere, at least make it a bit more painful for them to do so.

Louis

[texbike]

I try to drive less but every day I am reminded that gasoline still doesn't cost enough.

How is that you say?

There's not a single day that I don't see folks sitting idling in the parking lot of the grocery store or convenience store.

When they stop, then the price is right.

This will continue to happen as long as people have easy access to credit. It's easy not to feel the pain when you put that $60 fill up on the credit card and only pay the minimum monthly payment on the card each month.

If people were paying for those fill-ups with cold hard cash (or FRNs) straight from their paycheck, they might think twice or consider alternatives.

Texbike

[wtex]

I don't know if it's the gas prices, or I now know how much hail damage costs, but I do much less storm chasing. Well, that and West Texas really hasn't been that great for storms in the last few years.

[shoe]

running an errand tomorrow - 30 miles..while driving home from work(3 miles) tonight figured it would be best to just ride the bike...gotta recoup from my new ride somehow....see you guys out on the streets...dave

[PCR]

I do. Here in Washington State, especially Western Washington/Bellingham, "regular" gas is $3.69/gal, diesel is $4.25/gal. Talk about getting hosed. I try to bike as much as possible. I also love cycling but I do wish our gas prices were much lower, especially for the economic health ouf our nation.

[scrubadub]

I recently found out I'll be staying put amidst the great biking of the SF Bay Area. There was a real possibility of us ending up in LA which I think would have caused me to go insane with the driving and traffic. So I'll be able to keep my short 3 mile commute to work most months of the year.

Plus I have to justify the too-much-money I spent on my fixed porteur bike. And since it has fenders and I can't complain about snow around these parts...

[Ray]

I don't but that's mostly because I cut back to as close to nothing as I'm likely to several years ago. Basically, I drive more in the winter than any other time, but still very little. I live in a very walkable town and I walk or ride for pretty much all of my short trips (with an occasional drive to the grocery store for a big load). I work at home, but commuted by bike when I had an outside job, only a couple of miles each way, so I could do it in street clothes.

Overall, I drive less than 5,000 miles per year and have been for nearly ten years. As I get older and wimpier I don't see doing much less than that, but I should be able to keep it at that level. Hopefully, the cars will continue to get more and more fuel efficient and possibly convert to cleaner energy sources over the next decade or so and it will be less of an issue.

-Ray

[William]

I do drive less. And am seriously entertaining the unthinkable and letting the FJ go to greener pastures...

:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:
:crap:

[William]

We are looking into adding a hybrid into the clan. There is no safe way for me to commute in by bike otherwise I would be all over it. A motorcycle has crossed my mind...but Mrs William isbn't ready for that yet. No public transpo to get me in. My commute is what it is. A hybrid or motorcylce is the only way I'm going to improve it.




William



PS: The FJ doesn't leave the fold. ;)

[Climb01742]

We are looking into adding a hybrid into the clan. There is no safe way for me to commute in by bike otherwise I would be all over it. A motorcycle has crossed my mind...but Mrs William isbn't ready for that yet. No public transpo to get me in. My commute is what it is. A hybrid or motorcylce is the only way I'm going to improve it.

william, we have a hybrid. bought it to a) get better MPG, and to b) "vote" for alternative technologies. usually get 26-28mpg. good but not great. i'm hoping in a year or two to get a diesel. within 12-18 months, almost every car company will bring 50-state diesels to the u.s. for example, honda just announced that their new diesel engine (50+mpg) that is available in europe now will be here in '09. same for VW and MB. even though diesel fuel is now over $4, the better MPG plus longer life, lower maintanence of diesel engines seems, to me anyway, a better bet now. just a thought.

[Gothard]

Fuel here is 7+ a gallon.... :crap:
My commute involves 1000ft of climbing, not great with a tie and suit.
I have however much reduced the side trips, trying to combine errands over a week.

That said when the time comes for a change, I will but the smallest engined car I can find that will bring me up and down the mountain.

[William]

william, we have a hybrid. bought it to a) get better MPG, and to b) "vote" for alternative technologies. usually get 26-28mpg. good but not great. i'm hoping in a year or two to get a diesel. within 12-18 months, almost every car company will bring 50-state diesels to the u.s. for example, honda just announced that their new diesel engine (50+mpg) that is available in europe now will be here in '09. same for VW and MB. even though diesel fuel is now over $4, the better MPG plus longer life, lower maintanence of diesel engines seems, to me anyway, a better bet now. just a thought.


That's good to know, thanks climb. A couple of years ago we were at a VW dealership hoping to look at some Euro vans only to find out that they had stopped selling them in the US. The salesman made a comment along the lines of: "It's too bad they (the Gov) won't let them import the diesel versions, people are asking for them all the time. We could sell a ton of them". Looks like he may get the chance.




William

[saab2000]

Hey Saab, do you run the plane at part throttle? :)



We don't have any specific fuel saving measures in place because it's a bit more complex on an airplane. But we do make reduced thrust take-offs (normal practice) and leave the reduced thrust setting in to 10,000 feet. This has the primary benefit of running the motors cooler for less wear and tear but has the secondary effect of using less fuel.

Unfortunately, there is not a whole lot we can do. If we fly slower then crew costs go up (paid by the minute basically) as do maintainance costs as many components are on replacement schedules based on number of hours (minutes ultimately) of usage.

The best thing that could happen to save fuel in the airline business would be to get rid of the 50-seat jets like I fly and replace them with bigger ones. But this would have the effect of reducing frequency of service. Bigger jets use less fuel per seat. But passengers want 10 flights per day between every city and if we got rid of the 50-seaters folks would go nuts because of the reduced service. This would have the secondary benefit of reducing congestion and delays at places like New York, Boston, Washington, etc. I digress.

[Lifelover]

I haven't cut back at all. I still get up every morning that I don't work and ride around (in the car not the bike) with my wife or 11 y/o while I drink my 7-11 coffee.

Even at + $3.00 a gallon it still does not pay to cut back a little.


I fill up about once a week. My Taurus takes about 10-12 gallons at a cost of $40 or so. At 52 weeks my yearly cost is just around $2000 a year.


How much can I really save? I know people who spend more on bottled water. I suspect some folks on this forum spend more on wine, beer and water than they do on gas.

USA still has cheap gas. Things won't change (me included) until gas is pushing $6.00/gallon. Even than it might not be enough.





Earth First! We will destroy the other planets later! :banana:

[Tobias]

USA still has cheap gas. Things won't change (me included) until gas is pushing $6.00/gallon. Even than it might not be enough.Things are changing already with gas prices below $4.00. All we have to look at is how many large SUVs remain on the lots while small cars are outpacing others for the first time in decades. Decline in consumption won't happen immediately because it will take time for the larger SUVs and trucks to be retired -- just give it a little time.

[Tobias]

The best thing that could happen to save fuel in the airline business would be to get rid of the 50-seat jets like I fly and replace them with bigger ones. But this would have the effect of reducing frequency of service. Bigger jets use less fuel per seat. But passengers want 10 flights per day between every city and if we got rid of the 50-seaters folks would go nuts because of the reduced service. This would have the secondary benefit of reducing congestion and delays at places like New York, Boston, Washington, etc. I digress.saab, how do you factor that smaller planes allow more direct flights from small-town to small-town?

I hate to see a guy take a one-hour commuter to a major hub, then fly in a big jet to another major hub, to then fly a second commuter to his final destination which may (in some cases) not be all that far from where he started. Don't smaller jets like you describe (and even better if turbo-props for fuel economy) allow more direct point-to-point flights? Those that also same number of flights around major hubs where much of the congestion exists?

Just wondering what insiders think about the hub-and-spoke system. To me it seems to have been overdone.

[saab2000]

saab, how do you factor that smaller planes allow more direct flights from small-town to small-town?

I hate to see a guy take a one-hour commuter to a major hub, then fly in a big jet to another major hub, to then fly a second commuter to his final destination which may (in some cases) not be all that far from where he started. Don't smaller jets like you describe (and even better if turbo-props for fuel economy) allow more direct point-to-point flights? Those that also same number of flights around major hubs where much of the congestion exists?

Just wondering what insiders think about the hub-and-spoke system. To me it seems to have been overdone.

Between Raleigh-Durham and New York's La Guardia field (both big cities for us and neither small areas) there must be 15 flights per day. At least. The smaller jets are for the most part not used for small market to small market. If they were I would not fly between Philadelphia and Atlanta on a fairly regular basis.

I cannot comment on the hub and spoke system, only that being nr. 50 in line for T/O at LGA behind 35 other 50-seaters and a handful of larger airplanes is frustrating for everyone.

The other day I flew Washington DC to Indianapolis on a full 50-seater. Our company at another flight scheduled on the exact same route at the exact same time. Two airplanes flying the same route to accomadate 100 passengers. Efficient? not really.

Many, many former 'mainline' routes are being flown by so-called 'regional' carriers. This is not efficient, but it was originally proposed during the cheap fuel days to provide greater frequency.

[znfdl]

For the last 5 years, I have been trying to drive as little as possible.

I have driven my 4-year old car 40K miles. If you back out long family trips (20K), I have driven locally 20K miles or 5K per year.

I routinely ride 10K+ miles per year, I like my 2 to 1 ratio.

[tys]

Not so much because of gas prices, but my new year's resolution was not to drive except A:road trips (rare,usually to cycling events) B: carrying passengers (rare) C: extremely large cargo (also rare).
I've been so successful that I've had to start driving somewhere once a month just to keep my cars (they're old) in working condition.
Are gas prices up even more? It seems like it's been $3 and some change as long as I can remember here in NM.

tys

"Cyclists have a right to the road too, you noisy, polluting, inconsiderate maniacs! I hope gas goes up to eight bucks a gallon!" -- Calvin's dad

[CMY]

Cars are a passion of mine, but after looking at the rising fuel costs, my insurance and other various maitenance throughout the year (not even going to get into my expenditures on modifications or tickets) I decided that I had to get off the crack habit or I'd be in paycheck-to-paycheck land for a very long time.

I moved closer to my office, share a car / commute with my girlfriend and ride in (23 miles RT) the rest of the time. I might pick up a vintage ride for occasional use sometime this year, but for right now it's nice to have some financial stability while everyone else is moaning about the price of gas.

This was last year BTW.. driving 60+ miles everyday in a car that gets 9mpg pushed me to the front of the class. :D

[Fixed]

bike trailers
cheers

[musgravecycles]

Re: The airlines and small "puddle jumping" flights.

Turbo-props are much more efficient at these types of short flights, but passengers have all but demanded 'regional jet' type aircraft. I'm with Saab, there's no good reason for their to be 15 flights a day between RDU and LGA...

[Keith A]

I've been communting for more than a year now and am loving it! I especially love riding past all those folks just sitting in their vehicles waiting for the traffic to clear. However, I must admit that if it's raining, I do drive instead of ride.

[thejen12]

i'm hoping in a year or two to get a diesel.
Ugh - please give a thought to your cycling brethren when you think about buying a vehicle that puts out more particulate matter directly into our lungs! Diesel is more expensive than gasoline in CA, and I hope that discourages purchases of diesel vehicles around here.

Jenn

[Kirk007]

We drive much less, because of global warming not fuel prices. We sold our VW Eurovan (gas hog) and New Beatle diesel (great on gas, low on practicality) and bought a 4 cylinder Passat Wagon (a compromise to be sure - not the best mileage but not bad). I've made a comitment that I try hard to keep to walk or bike to work and for short trips. We are lucky to live in a community where we can walk and bike for most errands etc. The state of our world has put my dream of having some land out in the country on hold. I feel for those who are in circumstances that require frequent auto travel, and I'm afraid it will only get worse not better.

Greg

"Saving civilization is not a spectator sport."

[benb]

I rode to work 4 out of 5 days last week.. but then this week I have yet to manage to ride in.. I rode a ton last week.. now I'm kind of behind on everything as a result.. yesterday was my off day and rather then getting chores, shopping, etc.. done I went to see the Red Sox play..

I don't drive much overall, and my car averages ~27mpg with the mix I drive.

My commute is retarded short.. like a mile.. so it's not even really a bike commute, but I try really hard as I figure it's bad for my car to drive it such a short distance, especially in the winter.

I have yet to ride my motorcycle this year.. I need to get it going so I can use it for the longer trips rather then the car. It's perfect for going to see my girlfriend, family, etc..

Overall motorcycles are not a cost saver even if they are a fuel saver.. if you're looking into it, consider your choice very very carefully.. anything beyond about 250cc is likely more expensive to run then an economy car.. most motorcycles sold in the US are not designed to be economical at all. As the market shifts towards wanting fuel efficient vehicles I'd expect to see the big motorcycle manufacturers adapt much much faster then the auto companies.. as they already have huge numbers of models that meet all our standards and are very easy on gas because motorcycle regulations around the world do not differ as much as car regulations, and motorcycles have stayed light or lost weight while cars have fattened up at the same time efficiency has increased, negating many of the gains made through technology.

[Ozz]

My wife just shortened her commute by 20 miles per day...she now works about 2 miles from our house.

As a result, I lost my carpool partner and now ride the bus or bike (when I can). I need to drive occasionally to get to meetings with customers, but I am reimbursed for that.

I am feeling pretty smug about buying a Prius a couple months ago....it just turned over 1000 miles. :beer:

[djg]

The honest answer is that I'm not sure whether I count. I ride to work most days because that's my preference. Burning less gas is part of my preference, but truth be told, the largest part is just that I prefer turning the pedals to sitting in traffic.

I do have a sense that the overall cost makes at least a marginal difference for me. Most days I ride, but there are some days I drive -- severe weather, outside obligations, whatever, might make the bike especially inconvenient on a given day. There are borderline cases, and I'm pretty sure that once in a while, when I'm on the fence, the overall cost of getting into the car is a factor for me. The big part of that overall expense, coming into dowtown DC, is parking, but gas is somewhere in there.

At the same time, we've not yet cancelled or curtailed any of our (none-too-frequent) family vacations because of gas prices (or fuel for that matter -- sometimes we get on a plane).

[cmg]

Have tried to reduce my driving but everything i like to do is on the other side of town. But maybe next year i'll get an electric car. and 2 years from now will be complaining about what to do with the spent batteries

Th!nk to Bring Electric Car to U.S.--Next Year , http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/04/think-to-bring.html

We've been down this electrified road before. But the Norwegian firm Th!nk (as it likes to spell itself) has announced yesterday that it will introduce its Think City electric car in the U.S. by the end of next year.

The battery-powered Think City has a range of up to 110 miles on a single charge, with a top speed of about 65 mph, company officials say. It will be priced under $25,000.

This would be groundbreaking. Tesla's sports car may have pioneered the resurgent electric car in the U.S. But that vehicle costs $100,000 and only about 300 will be built per year.

How is Think different? Read after the jump.

Spokespeople for Think plan to produce 30,000 to 50,000 within two years. Currently the company produces 10,000 vehicles per year in Europe.

Think North America, as its U.S. arm is called, will build cars in Southern California. The vehicle was originally developed by Ford, though it sold it to Norwegian investors in 2003. And while there are a half-dozen U.S. startups working on electric cars, Think has received backing most recently from General Electric. It also has backing from venture capital firms that include RockPort Capital Partners and Silicon Valley heavyweight, Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers.

[mschol17]

Jenn,
I'm pretty sure modern diesel (car) engines aren't anything like the 1970s Mercedes diesels you still see around. They're remarkably clean and quiet.

I like when gas goes up, since it justifies a larger budget for my bike, which I commute on daily.

[mister]

i ride everywhere




almost
cheers :beer:

me too.

started about two years ago when i moved to a big city. i went from little slow trick bikes to big fast road bikes. i'm loving it.
gas expense went way down, food expense went way up...ok i spend my money on a different kind of gas now. gas for my motor instead of my cars.

[thejen12]

Jenn,
I'm pretty sure modern diesel (car) engines aren't anything like the 1970s Mercedes diesels you still see around. They're remarkably clean and quiet.

They still put out more smog-forming emissions (here is one article mentioning it, but I've seen better ones, just can't find one right now http://puregreencars.com/Buying-Guide/FlexFuel-vs-Hybrids-vs-CleanDiesel.html ) Here is the relevant quote from the article: Even with cleaner fuels and improvements in emissions controls, modern diesel engines still emit more smog-forming emissions than gasoline engines, particularly nitrous oxide.

Jenn

[M.Sommers]

I used to race Formula 1, I still ride etc, I get gas at 25% off, I get higher octane for free and my windows get cleaned with Rain-X (not your typical dirty water stuff) and they hand me free air fresheners every time I pull up. My LGS (local gas station) hooks me up left, right and center. I dunno why you cats are bummed about gas, complaining about it, what the heck? Support your LGS!

:D

[stevep]

i drive less

[fiamme red]

I don't drive less. Then again, I don't own a car. :)

[goonster]

Ugh - please give a thought to your cycling brethren when you think about buying a vehicle that puts out more particulate matter directly into our lungs! Diesel is more expensive than gasoline in CA, and I hope that discourages purchases of diesel vehicles around here.


:rolleyes:

Would it really be so bad if the occasional 17 mpg Chevy Tahoe were replaced by a 48 mpg VW Golf?

Do your homework. The modern diesel cars we are not allowed to buy are not like the soot-belching trucks that are already out there.

[saab2000]

:rolleyes:

Would it really be so bad if the occasional 17 mpg Chevy Tahoe were replaced by a 48 mpg VW Golf?



The 48 MPG Golfs are not sold in the US.... VW has the brand image, but go down to the dealer and see what they really offer. It is not the crunchy diesels.

In Europe I could have gotten my GTI as a GTD (or something more or less the same) with a 2.0 liter turbodiesel and far better fuel consumption.

Not here though. And they're not on their way all that fast either.

[max_powers]

commute to work tues thurs and the week will fly by, as each day m-f is different commute. and recovered for w/e riding.

[goonster]

The 48 MPG Golfs are not sold in the US.... VW has the brand image, but go down to the dealer and see what they really offer. It is not the crunchy diesels.

Believe me, I know what VW really offers. Here and elsewhere. ;)

I've been driving a TDI for ten years, and part of the reason why more aren't available (or in demand) is the whole "diesels are dirty" canard.

None of this is to diminish the risks of fine particulates (which is significant, but diesel engines are not nearly the biggest or most harmful source in the U.S., BTW) or the special environmental circumstances of southern California. What I'm saying is that in the Big Picture a certain percentage of diesel cars in the U.S. would be an improvement over the status quo. Even if you have to ride behind them on a bicycle occasionally, atmo.

[saab2000]

Believe me, if I could have gotten my car with a diesel I would have.

It is hard for me to believe that the US-market Rabbit is not sold with a diesel. Instead it has the bizarre 5-cylinder that is not actually all that efficient.

If they would sell a diesel Rabbit that got 50 MPG or so on the highway I bet it'd sell well. Hopefully they will come to their senses, because they do make such a vehicle. Or even a Polo diesel.

[goonster]

If they would sell a diesel Rabbit that got 50 MPG or so on the highway I bet it'd sell well. Hopefully they will come to their senses, because they do make such a vehicle. Or even a Polo diesel.

They don't sell it because the Federal emissions regulations have been continually out of reach. VW even "extended" the '07 model year diesel Jettas to skirt some stupid regulation I don't fully understand. They sold, but not as well as you might think. When I bought my car in '98 (49 mpg highway rating) they sat on the lots. Stick-shift only, so maybe that was the problem. When the B5.5 diesel Passats came out (fantastic cars, BTW), they sold very slowly. Maybe it's because the Car Talk guys don't like VW's, or because Consumer Reports docks them points for faulty window lifters. :rolleyes:

The current situation is not VW's fault, but trust me, VW has had a hard time selling diesels. Dont' blame them. Blame every other car company for not even trying. For years I tried to interest friends in diesels. Nobody cared. You only wanted one because you're some kind of Eurosnob who hates freedom. ;)

I agree on the Polo. A 1.6 liter TDI Polo should be killer competion for the Honda Fit. Believe me when I tell you that VW fans have been pestering VWoA for years to bring the Polo. Not sure what the problem is, but it's not like noone has thought of it.

I guess what I'm saying is this: if people wanted them, fuel efficient cars were out there. The secret is simple: smaller engines, but people wanted power and big cup holders.

[saab2000]

Nobody cared. You only wanted one because you're some kind of Eurosnob who hates freedom. ;)




FINALLY!!! Somebody who understands me!!! :beer:

[Kevan]

scooter.

[jerk]

i drive more. bought a house further from work, spending all my time in the newton shop instead of the boston one, so a lot more driving. still, gas is super cheap and it should cost more. i'm hoping it'll hit 5 bucks a gallon so that all the oil companies can have some record profits and operation iraqi freedom can be seen by all as the great success it is.

i've also decided to only buy gas from citgo-mostly because i really like hugo chavez' sense of humor.

jerk

[stevep]

i've also decided to only buy gas from citgo-mostly because i really like hugo chavez' sense of humor.

jerk

jerk,
this is political content.
the fine is $1,200... send the money to me and i'll take care of it.
your_other_friend

[dirtdigger88]

I dont pay for my gas in my daily driver- my employer does-

I drive my GTO to work on Fridays so I dont pay those fill ups either- 93 octane rocks

Jason

[1happygirl]

I would like to take public transportation more. Like the exercise concept of even walking a block to the stop but non-existent mass transportation in my city makes this an impossibility. :crap:

[davids]

I started driving less last fall, when I no longer needed to drive my daughter to school in the mornings. She takes the subway to school now, and I can take it door-to-door to work, too.

Driving less makes me happy. I no longer enjoy it, especially rush hours in Boston. I'm commuting via foot and public transportation, which feels good morally. And the best part is that I've got time to ride in the mornings before work. The last few miles of my morning ride takes me under the Southeast Expressway a few times, and seeing those poor people sitting up there in their cars gives me a certain sense of schadenfreude.

I've thought about replacing our second car, the enormous white Sable Wagon whale, with a hybrid. But then I realized that the environmental savings of the new vehicle I'm foregoing probably more than compensates for the extra fossil fuel the thing eats when it does get driven. So we'll drive it into the ground, by which time I'm hoping to scale back to a single car.

[thejen12]

I started driving less last fall, when I no longer needed to drive my daughter to school in the mornings. She takes the subway to school now, and I can take it door-to-door to work, too.

I've thought about replacing our second car, the enormous white Sable Wagon whale, with a hybrid.

You do have a hybrid - it's part station wagon, part subway!

Jenn

[vaxn8r]

I drive more than ever now that we got a flex fuel vehicle. Just doing my part thanks to gasahol.






<sarcasm>

[Peter P.]

I've ALWAYS been aware of fuel consumption and tried to minimize it.

I commuted to work daily, year 'round, for decades. My employer recently moved too far away to make it practical. Fortunately, we have company vehicles and they try to dispatch us from home.

As for other trips, I always combine grocery shopping with other errands. I ride my bike to the bank, library, post office, and anywhere else I can that'll save wear/tear/gas/money. I never run out in the car just to get the one item I need. I make a list and do without until the big trip.

I always fill the tank. I could never understand people who put just $5-10-15 in the tank. It's less wear and tear on the car and fewer trips to gas up if you fill the tank. I've got better things to do than pump gas.

I specifically bought my car for it's miserly gas consumption; 35mpg on the highway.

I drive my car 1-2 times a week.

I agree with what some of the other posters have said; in inflation adjusted dollars, American gas is STILL cheap relative to what it should be.

Instead of complaining, why aren't more people investing in the oil companies?

[csm]

I've never understood the concept that gas should be MORE expensive here.
how about gas should be cheaper in Europe?

[Mr. Butterworth]

I actually got interviewed by our local NPR station today regarding this very topic. I said I made an effort to ride my bike more, but since the coming of good weather has been concurrent with rising gas prices, it's difficult to separate the desire to ride from the desire to not fill the tank as often.

Honestly, I hate driving around here and even if gas was $1 a gallon, I think I'd limit my behind-the-wheel time, especially when I can pedal the same distance.

[saab2000]

I've never understood the concept that gas should be MORE expensive here.
how about gas should be cheaper in Europe?

Gas taxes are enourmously high in Europe. In many countries you get something for that in the form of very good roads and excellent and extensive public transportation.

The only place I can really compare is Switzerland and there the roads are exceptionally well built and maintained, frequently with useful bike lanes or usable bike paths. Additionally, the terrific train network has to be financed by something and I would guess that it is heavily subsidized by drivers.

[csm]

I understand the mechanics behind what drives the prices higher in Europe, but I don't understand why people here think we should pay MORE taxes.
***?
seriously?

[saab2000]

I understand the mechanics behind what drives the prices higher in Europe, but I don't understand why people here think we should pay MORE taxes.
***?
seriously?

I am not a tax hike fan, but if it were spent on something useful like better roads or better public transit (a politically much hotter potato in freedom loving USA than in freedom hating Europe...:D) I could possibly be persuaded to pay higher gas taxes.

Roads and bridges do cost money after all.

Anyway, what works in Europe is not necessarily going to work in the US. So I am not trying to start a political thread, just wondering if folks had modified their driving due to the higher gas costs. My car is $50 to fill up and that stings. So yeah, I drive less.

[csm]

PA has some of the highest gas taxes in the nation; and some of the worst roads. surprisingly, the money raised from the taxes has been diverted to other projects. there is currently talk about raising the taxes even further to cover the infrastructure projects loominig on the horizon. a few bridges fall down and people start to panic....
PA also has slot machines now. that is supposed to reduce my property tax; which funds the local schools.
guess what? it's gonna equate to almost nothing. there are so many loopholes in the legislation that no matter how it shakes out, I'll still pay about the same. drives me crazy.
I get that in a civilized society, taxes fund the services that we all need and enjoy. But, I've taken a pay cut the last 2 yrs due to various reasons; I think it is time the govt did as well.

[Grant McLean]

I've never understood the concept that gas should be MORE expensive here.
how about gas should be cheaper in Europe?


How about just paying the real cost?

If destroying the planet isn't figured into the cost of gas,
then it's too cheap. Supply and demand. If it's more expensive
people will use less. Try to remember that's a good thing.

But what do I know, i'm the nut-job who hasn't ever bought
a tank of gas, because at 40, i have no car, and no driver's
license...

-g

[csm]

should we pay the "real" cost of all products then? think about the mining of metals like titanium. or the pollution caused through smelting, anodization, harvesting rubber, etc. or even of the crap you eat and drink.

I think the "real" costs are in there. the prices don't magically appear.
it's great that you don't drive, never have, etc. there must be a good public transportation system in place. not everyone has that access.
your carbon footprint may be lower, but it ain't that low.

[saab2000]

PA has some of the highest gas taxes in the nation; and some of the worst roads. surprisingly, the money raised from the taxes has been diverted to other projects. there is currently talk about raising the taxes even further to cover the infrastructure projects loominig on the horizon. a few bridges fall down and people start to panic....
PA also has slot machines now. that is supposed to reduce my property tax; which funds the local schools.
guess what? it's gonna equate to almost nothing. there are so many loopholes in the legislation that no matter how it shakes out, I'll still pay about the same. drives me crazy.
I get that in a civilized society, taxes fund the services that we all need and enjoy. But, I've taken a pay cut the last 2 yrs due to various reasons; I think it is time the govt did as well.


I agree with the part about diversion of taxes. Don't even get me started on that. It is better in a place like Switzerland, but that is not really comparable, being a country of just 7 million or so in a place the size of New Jersey. Different scale. Different national priorities.

[csm]

if paying more taxes meant more benefits ala Switzerland, I'd be more willing to jump on the bandwagon. especially if it meant one of the govt issued assault rifles like the swiss give out. ha ha just teasing. sort of.
given the criminals we routinely have to choose to vote for, I don't hold out much hope that it would work.

[saab2000]

if paying more taxes meant more benefits ala Switzerland, I'd be more willing to jump on the bandwagon. especially if it meant one of the govt issued assault rifles like the swiss give out. ha ha just teasing. sort of.
given the criminals we routinely have to choose to vote for, I don't hold out much hope that it would work.


Again, a different kind of place. My brother-in-laws' rifles just sat collecting dust for 50 weeks out of the year. Seriously.

BTW, the overall tax picture in Switzerland is ultimately no higher than the US. Taxes there are lower than most of the rest of Europe. Very low military expenditures per capita. Anyway.....

[Grant McLean]

should we pay the "real" cost of all products then? think about the mining of metals like titanium. or the pollution caused through smelting, anodization, harvesting rubber, etc. or even of the crap you eat and drink.

I think the "real" costs are in there. the prices don't magically appear.
it's great that you don't drive, never have, etc. there must be a good public transportation system in place. not everyone has that access.
your carbon footprint may be lower, but it ain't that low.

Yes, the 'real' cost should be what we pay.
It's the cheap crap that gets added to the landfill which has
the least 'real' cost built into the price.

Heating/cooling a house and driving a car are about half of Co2 production.
Good places to start. I ride a bike. Shocking.

Think global, act local.

-g

[Tobias]

Instead of complaining, why aren't more people investing in the oil companies?Many who invest in mutual funds probably already do. However, let's not forget most of the increase in cost of gasoline is due to oil prices being at record $118 per barrel, and much of that profit goes to other countries, not US oil companies.

[mflaherty37]

We cyclers should all drive gas guzzlers as much as possible, now is the time. Sees we can push gas prices very high so the rest of the simpletons will park their cars, learn to ride bikes and accept them. Sees, so dig this...

[Oakely-Erik]

I am not a tax hike fan, but if it were spent on something useful like better roads or better public transit (a politically much hotter potato in freedom loving USA than in freedom hating Europe...:D) I could possibly be persuaded to pay higher gas taxes.

Roads and bridges do cost money after all.

Anyway, what works in Europe is not necessarily going to work in the US. So I am not trying to start a political thread, just wondering if folks had modified their driving due to the higher gas costs. My car is $50 to fill up and that stings. So yeah, I drive less.

I am sure you all remember that little bridge collapse in Minneapolis last August. The one I happened to drive over twice a week for most of last summer. I would gladly pay a higher tax if it meant that our roads and bridges stayed in good repair.

I just pulled the car out today for the first time all week to give the roommate a ride home when his car broke. I commute all year and am hoping to continue that for a very long time.

[CMY]

we can push gas prices very high so the rest of the simpletons will park their cars, learn to ride bikes and accept them. Sees, so dig this...
Does your house have wheels on it as well? ;)

If I'm going to be stuck in something that is guzzling gas and 'hurting the environment' (note that we've been in a 10-year cooling cycle) it might as well have some panache.. :banana:

[Tobias]

Many, many former 'mainline' routes are being flown by so-called 'regional' carriers. This is not efficient, but it was originally proposed during the cheap fuel days to provide greater frequency.I understand your frustration -- airlines are not particularly energy efficient.
What I really don't get is how -- in a day of extremely high fuel costs -- it is still often cheaper to buy a ticket between two major hubs that requires two legs instead of a direct route. A ticket requiring two legs and twice the distance (hence twice the fuel) costs much less than a direct flight between hubs. :confused:
Don't we all have to pay for that type of inefficiency eventually?

[Grant McLean]

Does your house have wheels on it as well? ;)

If I'm going to be stuck in something that is guzzling gas and 'hurting the environment' (note that we've been in a 10-year cooling cycle) it might as well have some panache.. :banana:

By all means, keep mailing $500 a month to Saudi Arabia.
They need the money more than you.
There are so many more gold toilets left to buy with it.

:banana:



-g

[Tobias]

Ugh - please give a thought to your cycling brethren when you think about buying a vehicle that puts out more particulate matter directly into our lungs! Diesel is more expensive than gasoline in CA, and I hope that discourages purchases of diesel vehicles around here.

JennJenn, is that as much of an issue for you when neighbors enjoy their fireplace or campers start a camp fire? How about wood burning stoves?

Maybe it's not as direct as breathing diesel exhaust next to your bike lane, but I'm curious how you handle other types of pollution.

The thing that's often missing from many reports is the absolute impact relative to other common sources. I don't know if a new clean diesel is twice as bad as a gasoline car (or ten times worse), but if they are both so clean that their impact is insignificant then why should it matter?

[Kirk007]

Does your house have wheels on it as well? ;)

If I'm going to be stuck in something that is guzzling gas and 'hurting the environment' (note that we've been in a 10-year cooling cycle) it might as well have some panache.. :banana:

nice ride! Italian cars = panache. But ten year cooling cycle - I don't think so, and neither do our glaciers or ice packs. Tonight's national news highlighted the current global food crisis. The water crisis is coming. It's all related - oil, energy, CO2 methane, food, water.... We're in deep if we don't pull our heads out of our ***** soon.

[CMY]

By all means, keep mailing $500 a month to Saudi Arabia.
They need the money more than you.
There are so many more gold toilets left to buy with it.

Read my previous post- I got off the car habit a year ago.

I was just pointing out that I'd rather have a Ferrari than a Dodge (that is, if I was feeling the need to help our 7th century friends procure some more gold toilets). :D

[CMY]

nice ride! Italian cars = panache. But ten year cooling cycle - I don't think so, and neither do our glaciers or ice packs. Tonight's national news highlighted the current global food crisis. The water crisis is coming. It's all related - oil, energy, CO2 methane, food, water.... We're in deep if we don't pull our heads out of our ***** soon.

Depends. I have a hard time that we've radically shifted the Earth's climate in under 100 years. Nor do I buy that we can change it back.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=74121

Maybe the food problems stem from over-population (read: poor management of the countries who are suffering) and possibly our 'warming' problems are due to the Sun's own temperature shift? Political power always feeds off fear.

I do what I do because I believe in leaving a small footprint and some degree of efficiency in any process; I also hate sending money overseas to people who absolutely hate us. The climate is the least of my worries as we have plenty of third-world countries (and China) who have little-to-no regulations on pollution that ends up at our doorstep.. Even if Gore is right (and honestly, how can you back that hypocrite?) we're still fighting a battle we can't win.

http://newsbusters.org/node/20680?q=blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/04/22/abc-s-20-20-gore-used-fictional-film-clip-inconvenient-truth

C.

[beungood]

Filled up my Silverado with diesel today, it was $97 and I had some diesel left in the tank before fillup. I have been driving a lot less than normal. I'll be glad when our Motorcycle unit is activated so I can keep my truck parked..

[BoulderGeek]

I haven't bought gas this year.

I don't miss paying for gas, insurance, and calculating drive time into my life events.

I do miss the sun, my friends, walking dog, having proper kegs ales and whatever wine that I want. I miss walking outside in shorts and being warm.

I live at the South Pole.

PS. I don't even know what gas goes for these days. Whatever the inflated cost, I think Bush voters should reimburse the rest of us.

[thejen12]

Jenn, is that as much of an issue for you when neighbors enjoy their fireplace or campers start a camp fire? How about wood burning stoves?

Maybe it's not as direct as breathing diesel exhaust next to your bike lane, but I'm curious how you handle other types of pollution.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I encounter several thousand cars on my commute each way, and maybe a dozen or so fireplaces. Most people drive their cars every day. Most people light up their fireplaces a handful of times a year (around here).

Myself, I have an EPA II rated fireplace insert that I use occasionally for heating the house (not for "ambiance" or non-functional purposes). I do not enjoy campfires, but I only camp for about a week out of the year, and only have maybe one campfire myself (I'd rather not have any, but my husband likes to have one on our last night in camp).

One of the primary reasons I commute by bicycle or electric scooter is so that I'm not putting all that crap into the air for other people to breathe (scooter is recharged from solar panels on my roof).

If you want to buy a diesel vehicle and put it in your living room and start if up for a few hours a handful of times a year, I'm not going to get all excited about it. If you're going to burn wood in open pits twice a day all along the length of my commute every day, I will!

Jenn

[Karin Kirk]

Interesting thread.

I just got back from Europe last night. One of the many things I enjoy about spending time over there is the beauty of their transportation system. We take public transport everywhere (train, bus, ferry) and it all works beautifully. I pay a lot of attention to the cars I see on the roads, and the vast majority are small (and cute!) with nary an SUV to be seen. I like that.

When I ride my bike, cars don't harass me. Plus there are bike paths and lots of other cyclists of all shapes and sizes. I like that too.

When I come home I always get a bit sad when I see how inefficient things are here, and how unlikely it is that we could change in truly meaningful ways.

It's very easy to observe the European system and wish that it were similar here. I suspect though, that the reason the system is like that in Europe stems from many roots, including expensive gas, a robust public transportation system, and a culture that does not embrace the bigger-is-better philosophy when it comes to personal cars and trucks.

I do think that more expensive gas here in the US can be a good thing in terms of breaking the addiction to enormous SUVs and wasteful driving habits. Of course there are plenty of unfortunate side effects like a disproportional impact to poor people, higher prices for goods, increased airfares, etc.

As for my daily commute - for the next 6 months I'll work exclusively from home, with an arduous commute upstairs to the office. :)

[fiamme red]

As for my daily commute - for the next 6 months I'll work exclusively from home, with an arduous commute upstairs to the office. :)I suppose you could install an elevator? :)

[Tom]

Another thing about Europe is that the settlements are much older - you have villages and pretty much nothing in between, some places strikingly so. Public transportation works really well in places like that. Unfortunately, in this country we don't give that much thought. In these parts they are talking about chopping down and paving over about 500 acres to build a chip plant out where there is no public transportation whatsoever. Meanwhile, there is 500 acres of already blighted area just ready for the bulldozer in any one of our local cities - right on the bus line.

[Kirk007]

CSM - You raise many valid points, and I'm glad you do what you do regardless of what motivates your good actions.

There are certainly more questions and unknowns and uncertainties than answers. Absolutely over-population is a big part of all the problems. Viewing our situation through the eyes of an evolutionary ecologist or population biologist, and applying lessons learned from other species, this could all be seen as a case of a species, homo sapiens, overshooting the carrying capacity of its ecosystems, with negative feedback loops kicking in to drop the population. To me, that rather detached view does nothing for making life any easier, nor it is an acceptable answer to give my son or his friends as a rationale for not trying to get some of these genies back in the bottle.

Regarding human impact and science, while you could be right, I think the evidence is continuing to mount otherwise. There will always be contrarians in the science community, but the NASA scientists and others around the world who are doing the CO2 calculations are not political hack jobs. H*ll our own Chief in Denial has done everything he can to shut them up. If you read the science it is hard for me to not conclude that there is a direct correlation between our fossil fuel use and the rising CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions.

Can we do anything about them? I think that is more a political/human will question than a technical one. De we have the will to keep coal in the ground unless and until carbon sequestration is proven? Do we have the political will to get out of foreign countries and use that money for massive retrofits of buildings to improve energy effeciency and to change our transportation systems. I'm not optimisitic but I refuse to give up hope.

Regarding third world countries - yes they are behind, they're building coal fired power plants (as is Italy and Germany for god sakes!) yet their current greenhouse gas emissions, even China and India, still pale in comparison to the good ole USA. And what about countries like Bangladesh, and some of the African nations, that emit essentially no greenhouse gases (at least incomparison with us). I recently met a young woman from Bangladesh who was here studying our judicial systems. She came up to me after I had given a talk on citizen enforcement of our environmental laws, and with tears in her eyes, said to me "Please, please, compel your government to do something about climate change. My family and friends cannot wait much longer." Powerful stuff. Makes you want to take action.

What ever happened to the concept that the USA, the self proclaimed leader of the free world, the most powerful nation on earth, should LEAD. IF we don't, then I agree with you - we can't get this under control. If we do, maybe we have a chance. Gore, yeah he doesn't always walk the talk, but his talk, as much as I wish he was wrong, is mostly right.

So what are our choices? To me its simple, if I'm alive 30 years from now and the world has gone to hell, and that generation of children is looking at us, demanding that we account for ourselves and our action, what do you want to tell them: that we did everything that we could, even if we failed or that we said ***** it, we're screwed anyway. I know what I will say. And, while I believe it is more likely than not that it will be a sad state 30 years from now, I'm not ready to throw in the towel. Its the journey not the destination right? And in any event, my son deserves more than from me than abstention on the challenge of our age.

[Tobias]

If you want to buy a diesel vehicle and put it in your living room and start if up for a few hours a handful of times a year, I'm not going to get all excited about it. If you're going to burn wood in open pits twice a day all along the length of my commute every day, I will!

JennJenn, I sense a little hostility in the tone; which is what I was mostly addressing in the first place. IMO your assault on clean diesels will ultimately have a negative impact. Besides, I was just curious how you process conflicting data, or events that are insignificant compared to the whole.

Some people don’t want 12 MPG SUVs at all, and want to force everyone to drive 40 MPG small cars, electrics, hybrids, etc…. And granted that fuel efficiency is a good thing, but how do we tell a couple who drives a 6 MPG motorhome 1,000 miles a year that they are inconsiderate for wasting precious resources, polluting, and warming the universe when others drive 50 MPG cars 30,000 miles a year?

It is also interesting that in Europe (mentioned above as a great place) diesels are far more common than in the US, and they don’t seem to have a problem with them even though their diesels are not as clean as what is now required here.

[Keith A]

Going in the opposite direction, I saw one of these beasts on the road just yesterday...one person in it and they weren't towing anything. It only weights about 10,500 lbs, but never fear...it has a 40 gallon fuel tank :eek: BTW, they don't publish the fuel economy on their website :no:

http://img.motorpasion.com/MXT-Black.jpg

[saab2000]

It is also interesting that in Europe (mentioned above as a great place) diesels are far more common than in the US, and they don’t seem to have a problem with them even though their diesels are not as clean as what is now required here.

That is interesting. Where I was in Europe, cars are required to be maintained and must pass tests as they age. That is the case in some places in the US, but not all, where we have all seen older cars belching blue/white smoke as they burn massive amounts of oil.

Europe is not perfect by a long shot, but they have considered energy usage and such long before it became an issue in the US.

[Karin Kirk]

I suppose you could install an elevator? :)

Great idea! But to keep it green I'll have Dave power it via a bicycle drivetrain. How cool would that be?

[Karin Kirk]

What ever happened to the concept that the USA, the self proclaimed leader of the free world, the most powerful nation on earth, should LEAD. IF we don't, then I agree with you - we can't get this under control. If we do, maybe we have a chance.

Fabulous post Greg!
I agree on all points. Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your expertise and your passion for these important issues.
:)

[thejen12]

Jenn, I sense a little hostility in the tone; which is what I was mostly addressing in the first place. IMO your assault on clean diesels will ultimately have a negative impact. Besides, I was just curious how you process conflicting data, or events that are insignificant compared to the whole.

Tobias,

I really don't get your line, here. You are the one who compared running a diesel vehicle to using a fireplace and asked me how I handle it when my neighbors use their fireplaces. What did you want me to say? That I climb up on their roof and poor water down their chimney? The truth is that I don't do anything when my neighbors use their fireplaces - what do you do? What do you think I should do? I honestly don't understand where you are trying to get me to go with this.

All I said was to think of the cyclists out there who are breathing the commute-time air when you think of buying a diesel vehicle. If you think that is a hostile statement, then that's what you think.

Jenn

[Tobias]

Going in the opposite direction, I saw one of these beasts on the road just yesterday...one person in it and they weren't towing anything. It only weights about 10,500 lbs, but never fear...it has a 40 gallon fuel tank :eek: BTW, they don't publish the fuel economy on their website :no:

http://img.motorpasion.com/MXT-Black.jpgBecause they are not rated. All vehicles above a certain weight don't get rated for fuel economy.

The cool thing is that the driver of that monster may use less fuel than most of us. For all we know he/she may only drive 50 miles a week.

[mwaldhopkins]

I've been in last Vegas the last couple of days on business. My lord- the power needed to make that place go is staggering. The grotesque excess, consumption, and self-indulgance made me depressed.... This lifestyle/culture, whether it impacts the environment or now (... it does...) needs to be curbed. Driving less is just a start.

Sadly, the only time most people care or take interest is when their pocketbook is affected. I think the high gas prices is ultimately a good thing... hurts me and the racing, but there are much bigger things in life.

I still have hope though. Looks like I'm having a little one in Nov!

[Keith A]

The cool thing is that the driver of that monster may use less fuel than most of us. For all we know he/she may only drive 50 miles a week.Even if they only drove 50 miles a week, the would likely use 3x the amount of fuel than an average small car would use.

BTW, you just got to love the manufacturer's description of this vehicle...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who prefer not to make a subtle entrance.

When people see you driving an International® MXT™, they don't forget it. They look up from their tricked out SUVs, and realize they don’t have the coolest ride on the street anymore. They're even more jealous when you press your foot down and let the force of 300 horsepower leave them in awe of what they just witnessed.

And while you’re savoring all the attention, you'll be relishing in the lush comfort of the spacious interior. Features like touch-screen CD/DVD radio, GPS navigation, ivory-faced sport gauges and leather seats make you question whether it looks better from the inside or from the street. Why don't you find out for yourself?

[Tobias]

All I said was to think of the cyclists out there who are breathing the commute-time air when you think of buying a diesel vehicle. If you think that is a hostile statement, then that's what you think.

JennLet me be blunt. What makes you think that new clean diesels are a bad idea for any of us to buy? Their emissions are so incredibly low compared to other sources that we should be more concerned about a lot of other things.

Why should I get excited about new clean diesels when my neighbor's fireplace or lawn mower may be polluting 1000 times more? Besides, if diesels are so bad, what do you want us to drive? Electric scooters? Hybrids? Civics?

It's not that anyone wants to hurt your lungs, but doesn't every option have some down side? What makes diesel a bad choice?

[saab2000]

For those who prefer not to make a subtle entrance.

When people see you driving an International® MXT™, they don't forget it. They look up from their tricked out SUVs, and realize they don’t have the coolest ride on the street anymore. They're even more jealous when you press your foot down and let the force of 300 horsepower leave them in awe of what they just witnessed.

And while you’re savoring all the attention, you'll be relishing in the lush comfort of the spacious interior. Features like touch-screen CD/DVD radio, GPS navigation, ivory-faced sport gauges and leather seats make you question whether it looks better from the inside or from the street. Why don't you find out for yourself?


If I want to make a non-subtle, but somewhat less grotesque (though not much more fuel efficient) entrance, I would drive a Mercedes SL. :D

[Tobias]

Even if they only drove 50 miles a week, the would likely use 3x the amount of fuel than an average small car would use.I'm not so sure I agree. If they drive 50 miles per week, or about 2500 miles a year at about 8 MPG, they would use less fuel than a typical Civic that is driven over 12,000 miles per year.

Freedom of choice on how we spend our money is what makes this entire issue so difficult to tackle. Should we not be harder on Gore and others like him for living in a large mansion and flying all over the world, sometimes in private jets? Who says what's right?

[CMY]

Regarding human impact and science, while you could be right, I think the evidence is continuing to mount otherwise. There will always be contrarians in the science community, but the NASA scientists and others around the world who are doing the CO2 calculations are not political hack jobs. H*ll our own Chief in Denial has done everything he can to shut them up. If you read the science it is hard for me to not conclude that there is a direct correlation between our fossil fuel use and the rising CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions.

I'm wary of scientists to a degree (not for everything, but this issue in particular) if only because they don't necessarily produce a product and are motivated by grant money. If you draw enough lines across a board you can conclude quite a bit- we've just been focusing on CO2 as the culprit and we've been throwing money at them to research it.

I'm not a Bush fan (full disclosure however, I did vote for him if only because I can't stand Gore or Kerry) but he seems to be on board with your theory, much to my chagrin. I don't think I need to go on about his home in Texas, but it's a *bit* more environmentally responsible than Gore's.

I do believe we ARE leading by example, but those who are championing the cause want radical change based on something that isn't 100% fleshed out yet, and it's largely out of fear or a bleeding heart that we constantly hear about it.

I get that everyone wants to have a healthy planet and I'm all for it. I just think that we need to radically shift from our current infrastructure to get there.

Instead of focusing on the automobile we need to begin work on a nation-wide mass-transit system and we need to start building nuclear plants. We can build electric automobiles that run autonomously on freeways (fed through lines in the ground) and "off the leash" on the streets. We need to start encouraging developers to include shared office spaces in condos/apartment/neighborhood plans and give tax credits to employers who allow employees to 'work from home'.

In other words, stop focusing on symptoms and give us viable alternatives to the lifestyle we're used to. Don't sell me on fear alone.

[Keith A]

I'm not so sure I agree. If they drive 50 miles per week, or about 2500 miles a year at about 8 MPG, they would use less fuel than a typical Civic that is driven over 12,000 miles per year.That's not comparing apples to apples. If I drove a Civic 50 miles a week or the beast 50 miles a week, then I would use 1/3 (or less) fuel with the Civic.

[Tobias]

That's not comparing apples to apples. If I drove a Civic 50 miles a week or the beast 50 miles a week, then I would use 1/3 (or less) fuel with the Civic.Keith, isn't that the issue here -- that we can not compare apples to apples when it comes to human behavior?

Why is the hybrid Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles a year more righteous than a Hummer owner who drives 3,000 miles per year? Yet at the rate we are going, soon many will be looking down their noses at Hummer drivers regardless of how much fuel they actually use.

[Keith A]

Yet at the rate we are going, soon many will be looking down their noses at Hummer drivers regardless of how much fuel they actually use.It's already happened. Check out www.fuh2.com (http://www.fuh2.com/) or www.ihatehummer.com (http://www.ihatehummer.com/). I must admit that many of the drivers of Hummers don't impress me. I can't tell you how many times the owner of one that parks at my office building takes up two spots with only 14 total parking spaces available. I have seen this a number of times with other Hummer drivers as well. So it's not only the excessive waste that this vehicle represents that causes the ill will towards it, but their owners/drivers often make matters worse with their driving behavior/practices.

[thejen12]

Let me be blunt. What makes you think that new clean diesels are a bad idea for any of us to buy? Their emissions are so incredibly low compared to other sources that we should be more concerned about a lot of other things.

Why should I get excited about new clean diesels when my neighbor's fireplace or lawn mower may be polluting 1000 times more? Besides, if diesels are so bad, what do you want us to drive? Electric scooters? Hybrids? Civics?

It's not that anyone wants to hurt your lungs, but doesn't every option have some down side? What makes diesel a bad choice?
Smog forming particles are what makes diesel a bad choice - currently even clean diesel emits 20 times that of gasoline powered cars.

It does look like by 2010 when the cleanest diesel fuel (so far) will be available in all 50 states that cars can then be equipped with extra equipment to reduce this - so that's good. But that extra equipment must be maintained, which means that it's effectiveness may be reduced over time as owners may choose not to maintain it. Currently, the diesel fuel is too dirty and clogs this equipment so it is not yet on the market.

Yes, fireplaces and lawnmowers are bad and should also be reduced whenever/wherever possible. My lawnmower is electric, by the way, also powered by those solar panels on my roof.

Jenn

[Karin Kirk]

Why should I get excited about new clean diesels when my neighbor's fireplace or lawn mower may be polluting 1000 times more?

Forgive me, but I fail to see the logic in this type of argument.

Why is it that the presence of other types of pollution or other polluters somehow translates into a case that someone shouldn't do all they are capable of to help be part of the solution?

My take is that even though this problem is more complex than any of us can truly understand, the solutions are multifaceted and numerous. Will any of us solve the problem singlehandedly? Of course not. But since the problem itself is largely due to the sum of everyone's individual actions, then why is it somehow not valid to do all you can? Regardless of how much your neighbor pollutes, you have direct control over your own pollution, so in my opinion you have a responsibility to do so. If we all sit around waiting for our neighbors to get on board, we won't get anywhere, will we?

The same applies to the Hummer vs Civic thing. A Civic is cleaner period. A car that drives further pollutes more, period. I think arguing that a 3000 miles per year Hummer is more or less righteous than a 12,000 miles per year Civic is kind of a silly exercise. Driving a more efficient car and driving fewer miles are both part of the same solution. Do one or the other, or best yet do both.

[staggerwing]

I drive less simply because I was trying to find a healthier "me" under the spare tire around the middle. Bicycle commuting has been a good solution for that issue; as well as others. I drive about 50% fewer miles, have become far more attentive when I do spend time behind the wheel, and smile a lot more.

[Keith A]

If I want to make a non-subtle, but somewhat less grotesque (though not much more fuel efficient) entrance, I would drive a Mercedes SL. :DI'm with you Saab...and the fuel economy isn't horrible at 14 mpg city & 22 mpg highway.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Mercedes-Benz/100710710/2007.mercedesbenz.slclass.20033738-E.jpg

[Tom]

Why is the hybrid Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles a year more righteous than a Hummer owner who drives 3,000 miles per year? .

They'd use one fifth the fuel.

[Keith A]

Karin gets it! http://www.shakadoghawaii.com/Shaka.gif

[Kirk007]

Instead of focusing on the automobile we need to begin work on a nation-wide mass-transit system and we need to start building nuclear plants. We can build electric automobiles that run autonomously on freeways (fed through lines in the ground) and "off the leash" on the streets. We need to start encouraging developers to include shared office spaces in condos/apartment/neighborhood plans and give tax credits to employers who allow employees to 'work from home'.

In other words, stop focusing on symptoms and give us viable alternatives to the lifestyle we're used to. Don't sell me on fear alone.

I'm not sure where I'm at on nuclear but I'm with you on the rest of this. In fact I just got out of a meeting with a rep. from our regional electric utility where we discussed a joint project between my group (environmental not for profit law firm and the utility - who would thunk that alliance would form a few years ago) to work with our City, County and State governments on a building efficiency and energy use incentives and regulatory changes to get at the massive structural changes that are necessary. A large part of this will be education and outreach to the public and businesses.

Conservation is a HUGE part of the solution and there's so much we could do, but it will require loss leaders in the form of economic incentives to businesses and individuals alike. Why is it that a business can recover 85% of its cost of going entirely solar in three years whereas if I wanted to do that to my home it would take 35 years to recoup the investment? The answer is our tax codes and regulatory structure. These things can be changed and we can take measurable steps. The examples are out there. The answers are out there. We just need the will of the people.

[vaxn8r]

I'm with you Saab...and the fuel economy isn't horrible at 14 mpg city & 22 mpg highway.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Mercedes-Benz/100710710/2007.mercedesbenz.slclass.20033738-E.jpg
That's about the mileage a Suburban gets. Why is a driver of a car like that off the hook so to speak. Maybe the Hummer guy drives around a family of 4 and car pools to work.

[Keith A]

That's about the mileage a Suburban gets. Why is a driver of a car like that off the hook so to speak. Maybe the Hummer guy drives around a family of 4 and car pools to work.Hey Vaxn8r -- You got to see the context of my comment to Saab. We were talking about the huge beast of a SUV the International MXT and Saab stated that he would rather drive a Mercedes SL...
If I want to make a non-subtle, but somewhat less grotesque (though not much more fuel efficient) entrance, I would drive a Mercedes SL. :DI personally would rather drive something with much better fuel economy than either of these vehicles.

[shinomaster]

I don't have a car or even a drivers license. I never have. I ride my bike everywhere or take the bus. Cars are MP....unless you are driving to cross races.. :D

[vaxn8r]

Hey Vaxn8r -- You got to see the context of my comment to Saab. We were talking about the huge beast of a SUV the International MXT and Saab stated that he would rather drive a Mercedes SL...I personally would rather drive something with much better fuel economy than either of these vehicles.
I know you would. But things are taken out of context all the time when judgements are made. Have you ever had a "terrorist!" sign glued to your car window? That happened to my wife a couple of years ago. Who knows how many people or for what purpose a vehicle is used for?

[dirtdigger88]

Im doing my part- my car with 400 hp gets better milage than my truck with 300 hp


jason

[Tobias]

Forgive me, but I fail to see the logic in this type of argument.

Why is it that the presence of other types of pollution or other polluters somehow translates into a case that someone shouldn't do all they are capable of to help be part of the solution?

My take is that even though this problem is more complex than any of us can truly understand, the solutions are multifaceted and numerous. Will any of us solve the problem singlehandedly? Of course not. But since the problem itself is largely due to the sum of everyone's individual actions, then why is it somehow not valid to do all you can? Regardless of how much your neighbor pollutes, you have direct control over your own pollution, so in my opinion you have a responsibility to do so. If we all sit around waiting for our neighbors to get on board, we won't get anywhere, will we?

The same applies to the Hummer vs Civic thing. A Civic is cleaner period. A car that drives further pollutes more, period. I think arguing that a 3000 miles per year Hummer is more or less righteous than a 12,000 miles per year Civic is kind of a silly exercise. Driving a more efficient car and driving fewer miles are both part of the same solution. Do one or the other, or best yet do both.Karin, with all due respect, I’d guess we differ on logic because our sense of values is apparently different. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Anyway, my questions to Jenn were meant to ask about her opposition to diesels, and it was not about each person doing whatever they can. I really don’t know how you got to that conclusion.

I prefer to look at the complete picture and not get sidetracked by details that are often insignificant or worse misleading. The point I was trying to make about new clean diesels is that while they may produce more of one type of pollution (in incredibly small quantities compared to open fires and other sources); they also produce less of others like CO2. What’s the correct tradeoff between these? I was merely questioning Jenn’s assertion that new clean diesels are not as good as other options because of one or two components in their exhaust without also considering other factors that may be far more beneficial.

Getting back to my logic being different: IMHO if we start to move away from individual freedom to spend our money on fuel as we see fit without fear of repercussion, we will be starting down a very slippery slope. After large Hummers come private airplanes. Then large powerboats. Then fishing boats. Then Jet Skis. Then houses larger than a small cabin. Etc…….. Where would it ever end?

Who will make the decision on what is appropriate? Jenn? You? Free capitalist markets?


P.S. – Granted my example about the Hummer versus Civic was poor, but my logic still tells me that a person who spends 100 gallons of fuel a month is generally cleaner than a person who spends 200 gallons a month. PERIOD. It doesn’t matter whether they burned it in a Prius, Hummer, Powerboat, RV, or like Gore, air conditioning a mansion.

Would spending only 10 gallons a month be better (i.e. – drive a Civic “and” drive much less)? Of course, but that is so lame it doesn’t deserve debating. We might as well argue not driving at all and holding our breaths every other minute. :rolleyes:

[csm]

as an aside; what is it about Prius drivers anyway? they all act so righteous.

[shinomaster]

Hummers are MP
Huge speed boats are MP

[jvp]

as an aside; what is it about Prius drivers anyway? they all act so righteous.

I have a theory that prius drivers accelerate and merge so slowly because they are staring at the real-time mpg gauge.

[Ozz]

I have a theory that prius drivers accelerate and merge so slowly because they are staring at the real-time mpg gauge.
funny but true..... :cool:

And, what's wrong with that? :beer:

[AgilisMerlin]

4.00$ gallon by mid may:

snipped:

"Others are opting for man power in the form of bicycles. Bike shops have seen a spike in people looking for commuter friendly bikes.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6094623



THIS HARKS BACK TO THE SEVENTIES...............

[AgilisMerlin]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/04/23/ap4925260.html

Sky-high fuel prices were again the main culprit in huge losses for airlines in the first quarter. Delta Air Lines Inc. (nyse: DAL - news - people ) said its first-quarter loss widened to $6.39 billion from a $130 million a year ago, while Northwest Airlines (nyse: NWA - news - people ) posted a $4.1 billion loss compared with a loss of $292 million last year.

Both airlines - which have plans to join to become the nation's largest carrier - pointed to record fuel costs for their earnings woes. Delta spent $1.42 billion on fuel in the quarter, up $585 million from what is spent in the 2007 quarter. Northwest's fuel costs shot up to $1.11 billion, up 57 percent year-over-year.

[jvp]

funny but true..... :cool:

And, what's wrong with that? :beer:

umm, the delay of safe and orderly flow of traffic at intersections and merge ramps?

[Ozz]

umm, the delay of safe and orderly flow of traffic at intersections and merge ramps?
You're right, it is the slow acceleration that adds the danger.... :rolleyes:

Dude, just cuz you don't mash the pedal to the floor, doesn't mean you are not driving safely! I don't see a big safety difference in taking 5 seconds to get to 35 mph versus 3 seconds.

What are your thoughts on rolling stops, following too closely, and merging without signaling?

BTW - I'm just kidding with you so insert as many smiley faces as needed! :p

[RPS]

Dude, just cuz you don't mash the pedal to the floor, doesn't mean you are not driving safely! I don't see a big safety difference in taking 5 seconds to get to 35 mph versus 3 seconds.Or ten seconds in most cases.

I wonder how people drove back in the "old" days when a Bettle had 36 HP? The idea that we need 300 HP in a 3000 pound car is ludicrous. We may want it for fun, but it certainly isn't needed.

[staggerwing]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/04/23/ap4925260.html

Sky-high fuel prices were again the main culprit in huge losses for airlines in the first quarter. Delta Air Lines Inc. (nyse: DAL - news - people ) said its first-quarter loss widened to $6.39 billion from a $130 million a year ago, while Northwest Airlines (nyse: NWA - news - people ) posted a $4.1 billion loss compared with a loss of $292 million last year.

Both airlines - which have plans to join to become the nation's largest carrier - pointed to record fuel costs for their earnings woes. Delta spent $1.42 billion on fuel in the quarter, up $585 million from what is spent in the 2007 quarter. Northwest's fuel costs shot up to $1.11 billion, up 57 percent year-over-year.

Anyone else scratch their head on the math presented here. Take Delta's loss from the year previous, add the 1.42 billion total fuel costs, and a good pinch extra, and you are still well shy of the reported $6.39 billion loss.

There is a lot more going on than what is being reported. Plus Delta and Northwest are doing the tango; although anyone thinking rationally can see that two huge losers are unlikely to add up to a winner. And, I wouldn't be surprised if there are 7 digit bonuses set up for senior management, if they can arrange this marriage. Everyone else just gets to take in the rear.

[jvp]

my problem with the "slow accelerators" is waiting on them to get up to speed in those situations that doing so smartly aids the flow of traffic, such as merging onto a freeway in heavy traffic, or being 6 or 7 back waiting at a traffic signal knowing if everyone got going more cars (mine esp.) will clear the signal. But most of the time I don't care how slow they choose to get going.

[Ozz]

... or being 6 or 7 back waiting at a traffic signal knowing if everyone got going more cars (mine esp.) will clear the signal. But most of the time I don't care how slow they choose to get going.
I'm with you on this point!...Keep up or get out of the way! :banana: :beer:

[dvancleve]

I don't know about righteous, but a bit smug perhaps ;) We are driving a car that is fast enough for any reasonable driving, is roomy for 4 people and gets 40mpg without really trying (mostly full "throttle" acceleration up to the speed limit in my case). Unlike a VW TDI (my brother's TDI Golf was a borderline lemon and my similar age 1.8T Passat was nearly as bad), all signs point to the Prius being pretty bulletproof with all systems, including the batteries, lasting well over 100K miles. Folks argue that hybrids aren't the answer, but other than the precious little toggle switch gear selector I don't see a downside.

I ride a bike to work, ends up being 8 miles a day by the time I pedal home for lunch then back. I have driven maybe 3 times in the past couple years, heavy rain or needed to drive someplace straight from work. I was doing it before gas prices got so bad, so I guess that doesn't have much to do with it. "My" car is a '97 Subaru Outback. It isn't particularly fuel efficient, I would guess low 20s at best, but I have only put about 9K miles on it in the last 2.5 years so the mileage doesn't matter much. I will be keenly awaiting the U.S. arrival of the diesel version in a year or so, might be time to get a new one...

Doug

as an aside; what is it about Prius drivers anyway? they all act so righteous.

[bhungerford]

so lots are driving less, lots are pissed at SUV drivers and Prius drivers :p

is anyone else planning on actually buying a new car this year?

need to get the wife a new car this summer, she wants a nice small...small, did everyone read that? :rolleyes: SUV....yeah we know it doesn't get the mileage of a civic or Prius or Fit or whatever, but she needs a new car, likes how the nice ones drive and would like the room for kids and all their stuff. so we'll get something, X3, RDX, maybe a CRV...the good part is she doesn't have a long commute, maybe 10 miles into downtown. I wish there was a small SUV that got 50+mpg or was electric would be even better (powered by solar panels at the house)...but they don't exist....or if anyone knows of one tell me, cause we'll get it.

anyways, just saying that gas isn't that expensive yet (to stay on the OP) and there are no alternatives for us...i'm just glad the ****** in DC aren't passing a law telling us how to spend our money.

btw - i ride into work 3-5 times a week year round, trying to do my part for our little blue marble :beer:

[thejen12]

need to get the wife a new car this summer, she wants a nice small...small, did everyone read that? :rolleyes: SUV....yeah we know it doesn't get the mileage of a civic or Prius or Fit or whatever, but she needs a new car, likes how the nice ones drive and would like the room for kids and all their stuff. so we'll get something, X3, RDX, maybe a CRV...the good part is she doesn't have a long commute, maybe 10 miles into downtown. I wish there was a small SUV that got 50+mpg or was electric would be even better (powered by solar panels at the house)...but they don't exist....or if anyone knows of one tell me, cause we'll get it.

I don't know how the mileage figures compare for the SUVs, but there is a Ford Escape Hybrid and a Saturn Vue hybrid and either of those might get better mileage than a CRV-type SUV. You might want to check it out.

Jenn

[jvp]

my wife is trading in her clumsy '02 sebring for a new matrix tomorrow. Next fall I plan on getting (probably) an '09 fit, the 2nd generation one w/ hopefully all the kinks worked out.

[bhungerford]

Thanks Jenn, yes we know those, but the wife doesn't like how they look, which is a bummer to me, but i also want to actually buy her a new car (she's never had one) so the slightly better MPGs aren't really worth her comprimising on a car she actually really would like. that might be silly, but might not be too....

actually, most likely i see buying her something now (she's leaning towards the Bimmer) and when some new tech higher mpg little suvs come out we'll end up taking a huge hit on whatever we end up with and getting someting 'green'

But, i guess i'm in that group of people that really aren't hurt by $4+/gal gas, yes i hate filling up, but not for the price, more for the use of gas and all that goes with that...but here's a thought to throw out there, so you drive your prius, or maybe you're doing better than that and riding your bike or walking to do everything....are you still buying stuff? groceries? clothes? tires for that bike? all of it uses a gas, and most of it probably uses more than your car does in a year, have to grow it/make it, then package it (in plastic), ship it (crap more gas), stock it (crap more CO2 to have the lights on and cool it)....etc etc etc....

best solution, grow/raise everything you need yourself, if you're self supported then you don't need that oil....or barter your corn for your neighbors cotton...is this realistic, nope not at all, but sometimes i think it would be better if it was 1700, oh wait when was the bike invented, just after that is what year it should be :D

[Ray]

my wife is trading in her clumsy '02 sebring for a new matrix tomorrow. Next fall I plan on getting (probably) an '09 fit, the 2nd generation one w/ hopefully all the kinks worked out.
Which kinks?

-Ray

[jvp]

well, some of them were discussed on a "fit" thread on this forum, one is the intermitent wipers have only one speed setting, also some engine power issues.

[bhungerford]

more gripes than kinks on the fit then right? my father-in-law has one and hasn't had any mechanical/electrical issues with it, he's going to buy the '09 when it comes out.

[Kirk007]

I had a similar dilemma - went to one car that needed to be functional, economical on fuel and please the family aesthetics. Passed on the Ford/Merc hybrids although I think they are quite impressive and obviously much more affordable than the Toyota highlander, which I consider best of class in SUVs. Ultimately leased a Passat wagon for 3 years (note it will be under warranty the whole time - something I find to be unfortunately a necessity with VWs). A compromise to be sure, but three years from now hopefully there will be a lot more options. I'm hoping for the wagon plug in hybrid!

[cowgirl]

I like to hitch rides.

[saab2000]

I like to hitch rides.


That's how I got home today to Michagan from Washington DC. Hitching rides is the name of the game.

[saab2000]

best solution, grow/raise everything you need yourself, if you're self supported then you don't need that oil....or barter your corn for your neighbors cotton...is this realistic, nope not at all, but sometimes i think it would be better if it was 1700, oh wait when was the bike invented, just after that is what year it should be :D


Gets it. Life ain't just as simple as a 50 MPG Jetta or a Prius. It is a massive matrix of things, all of which are interconnected.

[Ginger]

... all signs point to the Prius being pretty bulletproof with all systems, including the batteries, lasting well over 100K miles. ...


Really? Is that why I've seen several broken down on the side of the road this spring?

(No...really)

But we seem to have an overload of them here in the motor city...perhaps those on the side of the road are planted by the big three to dissuade the population that the Prius is a good idea.

[csm]

why is everybody leaving minivans alone? they get pretty appalling mileage too.

[dirtdigger88]

ya know what kills me- the people with these high milage cars acting all high and mighty

the car is still lubricated with oil
tires- yup made from petro
the plastic (which the cars are mostly made of) all petro based
hoses - belts- the computer chips that runs the damn thing - I could go on and on
lets not forget the roads you drive on too-

you could ban ALL cars today and not make much of a differance in the TOTAL use of oil based products in the world

who here is giving up the meds that their happy doctor writes the scripts for???

anyone here going to stop eating- using plastic - heating their homes- wearing clothes- using electricity

grow up people - it aint all about the cars

sorry for the rant . . . well no . . . Im really not

have fun with this post - I just did

Jason

[fierte_poser]

my wife is trading in her clumsy '02 sebring for a new matrix tomorrow. Next fall I plan on getting (probably) an '09 fit, the 2nd generation one w/ hopefully all the kinks worked out.

The 09 fit will have run flat tires. I'd buy an 08.

[fierte_poser]

the computer chips

Computer chips made of oil? Try sand.

[AgilisMerlin]

bullseye...................http://www.burning-pants.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bullseye.jpg



ya know what kills me- the people with these high milage cars acting all high and mighty

the car is still lubricated with oil
tires- yup made from petro
the plastic (which the cars are mostly made of) all petro based
hoses - belts- the computer chips that runs the damn thing - I could go on and on
lets not forget the roads you drive on too-

you could ban ALL cars today and not make much of a differance in the TOTAL use of oil based products in the world

who here is giving up the meds that their happy doctor writes the scripts for???

anyone here going to stop eating- using plastic - heating their homes- wearing clothes- using electricity

grow up people - it aint all about the cars

sorry for the rant . . . well no . . . Im really not

have fun with this post - I just did

Jason

[dvancleve]

There are things about the Prius that are not like regular/normal cars. I suspect some of that you see are "broken down" due to operator error rather than true mechanical failure. I was referring more to Consumer Reports type reliability ratings. I would have to say, no slight intended, that my wife isn't mechanical at all and LOVES the Prius. It is really her car...

An economical car is surely not the cure for the world's ills, but spending A LOT less on gas and polluting A LOT less than the average vehicle on the road are surely good things ;)

Doug

Really? Is that why I've seen several broken down on the side of the road this spring?

(No...really)

But we seem to have an overload of them here in the motor city...perhaps those on the side of the road are planted by the big three to dissuade the population that the Prius is a good idea.

[M.Sommers]

ya know what kills me- the people with these high milage cars acting all high and mighty

the car is still lubricated with oil
tires- yup made from petro
the plastic (which the cars are mostly made of) all petro based
hoses - belts- the computer chips that runs the damn thing - I could go on and on
lets not forget the roads you drive on too-

you could ban ALL cars today and not make much of a differance in the TOTAL use of oil based products in the world

who here is giving up the meds that their happy doctor writes the scripts for???

anyone here going to stop eating- using plastic - heating their homes- wearing clothes- using electricity

grow up people - it aint all about the cars

sorry for the rant . . . well no . . . Im really not

have fun with this post - I just did

Jason

Bro, you hit a big nail on the head.

[shinomaster]

Bro, you hit a big nail on the head.


Yeah, but what about air pollution? What if every moron and his brother in this world was driving a POS Escalade, or a Hummer? How great would things be then?

[dirtdigger88]

Yeah, but what about air pollution? What if every moron and his brother in this world was driving a POS Escalade, or a Hummer? How great would things be then?

its not an all or nothing deal- currently not EVERYONE in the world drives large SUV do they?

what about the fact that these little econo - box cars are build like toys

is saftey a factor for anyone

Jason

[jvp]

The 09 fit will have run flat tires. I'd buy an 08.

Can the 09 be rigged w/ conventional tires when the originals need to be replaced?

[Louis]

We all choose to rationalize our behavior in our own way.

Unfortunately, we can all be right. Time will tell who was right, but we won't be around to know. Maybe your grandkids will.

[goonster]

Can the 09 be rigged w/ conventional tires when the originals need to be replaced?

Of course you can.

[Karin Kirk]

you could ban ALL cars today and not make much of a differance in the TOTAL use of oil based products in the world



Umm, actually that would make an enormous difference!
Of course there are many uses of petroleum, but cars are very near (or at) the top of the list.
And yes, other factors are important too, of course. There are lots of ways to make a dent, in either the positive or negative direction.

[jvp]

then run flats are not a deal breaker for me.

[false_Aest]

its not an all or nothing deal- currently not EVERYONE in the world drives large SUV do they?

what about the fact that these little econo - box cars are build like toys

is saftey a factor for anyone

Jason

It's strange that you bring this up on a bicycle forum. I mean, compared to "econo - box cars" bikes are toothpicks and, as riders, we're far more vulnerable than whomever is in/driving one of those "toys."

I guess I feel that if someone is arguing purchasing a SUV for "safety" reasons then that person should be doing his riding on a spin bike or trainer and not on the street.

Maybe I'm missing the point or making an illogical leap.


Incidentally, I think that The End of Suburbia is a really good documentary that kind've deals with how America got where it is. Worth a watch.

[dirtdigger88]

It's strange that you bring this up on a bicycle forum. I mean, compared to "econo - box cars" bikes are toothpicks and, as riders, we're far more vulnerable than whomever is in/driving one of those "toys."

I guess I feel that if someone is arguing purchasing a SUV for "safety" reasons then that person should be doing his riding on a spin bike or trainer and not on the street.

Maybe I'm missing the point or making an illogical leap.


Incidentally, I think that The End of Suburbia is a really good documentary that kind've deals with how America got where it is. Worth a watch.

I dont strap my son onto my bike when I ride

Jason

[Grant McLean]

you could ban ALL cars today and not make much of a differance in the TOTAL use of oil based products in the world




http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm

"A tanker truck can typically hold about 9,000 gallons of gasoline. It would take 40,000 tanker trucks to carry the gasoline the U.S. consumes in one day"

that's 131 Billion gallons of gas a year in the US alone!
at $3.50 a gallon, I can think of better things to do with $459 billion cash
every year than literally burning it.

-g

[Fixed]

I don't own a car but my wife does a xb scion
it is okay i can get a bike in there and 3 people
i have noticed a lot more people using the bus service
i'm dumb so i ask are our kids going to have less than we did ?
cheers

[Kirk007]

i'm dumb so i ask are our kids going to have less than we did ?
cheers
Man that depends on the choices we make. It could be a very bleak future. Or we could wake up; make the right choices and transform our world. Do we have the discipline and the will?

For my perspective, and to put this in cycling terms - global warming and a host of related dopers are up the road. The strongest teams in the peloton are all looking at each other, playing chicken. If someone doesn't take charge of the peloton soon, and get all the teams working together, it will be too late to bring the break back, and the day, the race, will be lost.

[Tobias]

Who has modified their driving habits?For summer vacation we will be driving the same miles but will save about 40% of the fuel.
In lieu of towing a camper we changed our plans this morning and are renting a small cabin instead.
Although total cost is the same, we had to forgo camping along the way as a tradeoff – that part sucks.
I preferred the camper but wasting extra fuel didn’t feel right or make much sense.
I just feel bad for the middle-age couple who own the RV rental company which is about to go under.

I was undecided on which way to go and have to admit this thread made changing plans a little easier.

[Karin Kirk]

For summer vacation we will be driving the same miles but will save about 40% of the fuel.
In lieu of towing a camper we changed our plans this morning and are renting a small cabin instead.
Although total cost is the same, we had to forgo camping along the way as a tradeoff – that part sucks.
I preferred the camper but wasting extra fuel didn’t feel right or make much sense.
I just feel bad for the middle-age couple who own the RV rental company which is about to go under.

I was undecided on which way to go and have to admit this thread made changing plans a little easier.
Kudos to you - nice going! :)
As for camping along the way, have you entertained the idea of tent camping? Sometimes that's more appealing than a Super 8 motel.

Either way, I applaud your decision.

[CNY rider]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm

"A tanker truck can typically hold about 9,000 gallons of gasoline. It would take 40,000 tanker trucks to carry the gasoline the U.S. consumes in one day"

that's 131 Billion gallons of gas a year in the US alone!
at $3.50 a gallon, I can think of better things to do with $459 billion cash
every year than literally burning it.

-g

Actually we would be much better off burning it than what's really happening with it, which is supporting the world's most repressive regimes such as Saudi Arabia and Iran and financing terrorism.
Note I did NOT include Canada on that list. :beer:

[RPS]

For those who enjoy camping it’s sad the RV industry is either in denial or clueless regarding fuel economy.
They could learn a lot from cycling and start building units that are actually aerodynamic (versus looking aerodynamic) instead of focusing so much on weight (maybe ignore cycling on that part :rolleyes: ). The super-light units mostly fall apart after a few years anyway.
I expect the entire RV industry will be hurt worse by fuel costs than the airlines – they don’t have the products people want with gas at $4.00 a gallon. It’s either a huge living room box on wheels or some form of folding camper which most people don’t like. Where are the modern versions of small units like those built in the 40s, 50s and 60s? It's just another example of where bigger-is-better took over.
When my wife and I looked for a small aerodynamic toy hauler designed specifically for bicycles we couldn’t even find a single one.

[csm]

My Eurovan Pop-up gets about 24-25 on the hwy; not too bad. it sleeps 4ish and will be our Ragbrai support vehicle this summer. we have a non-riding spouse volunteered to drive. hopefully she doesn't have much of a lead foot or she will be sorely disappointed. I expect worse gas mileage for the day-to-day driving there but the drive from PA to IA should be only a little lower than the mileage I've gotten in trips past in my Honda Element. the vw does not go quite as fast as the element but neither vehicle is really in danger of attracting too much negative attention from local law enforcement on the trip.
I've looked at towables and bigger rvs over the years. I can not imagine one of the class A busses that get little better mileage than one of our trks at work. I guess if you can afford to buy one, fuel costs probably are not too much consideration. I wonder how many private airplane owners are flying less? I would think the corporate-jet types probably have not seen much downturn but the weekend fly-around guys probably sit less. same with boats.
thankfully my hobbies are mostly non-oil based.
if ammo and beer start to go up then I will start bellyaching....

[swoop]

i drive as little as possible because i don't want to finance the petrol industry or any of the political bs that's a result of it. screw those guys, they're effing up the world and getting rich doing it.

[shinomaster]

its not an all or nothing deal- currently not EVERYONE in the world drives large SUV do they?

what about the fact that these little econo - box cars are build like toys

is saftey a factor for anyone

Jason


If everyone drove a small lightweight car, accidents would be less fatal. Suv's demolish small/medium sized cars in accidents.

[Tobias]

If everyone drove a small lightweight car, accidents would be less fatal. Suv's demolish small/medium sized cars in accidents.Absolutely correct.

A few years back the editor of Car and Driver wrote a piece about how the easiest way to buy safety was to buy big – real big.

Although I knew it was pointless, I wrote him and vented about how that safety was at the expense of his neighbors. In my opinion that was an incredibly irresponsible recommendation (although technically correct); and enough for me to discontinue my subscription. There has to be a limit to selfishness.

[Tobias]

As for camping along the way, have you entertained the idea of tent camping? Sometimes that's more appealing than a Super 8 motel.Karin, we’ll probably drive straight to our destination – it’s simplest.

Tent camping is a good suggestion, and I would do it if I was traveling alone or in dry climate, but some traveling with me don’t like tents; particularly later in the summer when it’s hot and humid.

[RPS]

My Eurovan Pop-up gets about 24-25 on the hwy; not too bad.csm, if you don't mind me asking, what size engine do you have in your Eurovan, and how slow do you have to drive to get 24-25 MPG on the hwy?

I'm curious because in Europe they run large vans like the Sprinter with as little as 100 HP or so and here in the US a smaller van like mine has a V-10 with over 300 HP; which I don't need at all. I'd be happy with half the engine size.

[Onno]

Absolutely correct.

A few years back the editor of Car and Driver wrote a piece about how the easiest way to buy safety was to buy big – real big.

Although I knew it was pointless, I wrote him and vented about how that safety was at the expense of his neighbors. In my opinion that was an incredibly irresponsible recommendation (although technically correct); and enough for me to discontinue my subscription. There has to be a limit to selfishness.

Yes, I totally agree with this. This is a really under-reported, under-discussed aspect of the scandal of SUVs. Every time someone buys one, they make the roads less safe for others, in addition to taking up extra resources (including road and parking space). My sense is that driving an SUV also makes you a worse driver, since you're less connected to the road.

While there is some real degree of individual responsibility here, it also seems to me that you can't really blame someone for trying to make their own family safe (even if this is partly an illusion) by buying a big truck. This is where an enlightened government ought to step in and do what it can to dissuade people from buying these things (i.e. big tax penalties), since collectively it's bad news, and costs us all more.

[Ozz]

...Tent camping is a good suggestion....
is there any other kind??? :confused:

;)

[shinomaster]

is there any other kind??? :confused:

;)


Yurt.

[RPS]

This is where an enlightened government ought to step in and do what it can to dissuade people from buying these things (i.e. big tax penalties), since collectively it's bad news, and costs us all more.Rather than tax them (which wouldn’t eliminate the inherent danger) we could also modify safety testing to put most vehicles on a level playing field. Instead of testing solely against immovable barriers like at present, all non-commercial vehicles could be required to also wreck head-on against a pre-selected mid-size sedan (something the size of Chevy Malibu, Honda Accord or Toyota Camry) or some other agreed-to control, and ensure the safety of the occupants of both vehicles.

It would be interesting to see how a 7000 pound Hummer would have to be modified to keep from creaming the occupants of a 3500 pound sedan in a head-on collision. In any case costs would be applied directly in proportion to a vehicle’s ability to cause damage due to its size.

[shinomaster]

I think the SUV concept is cool, but they should make them out of bamboo, wicker, and marshmallows, and they should run on maple syrup.

[Louis]

A few years back the editor of Car and Driver wrote a piece about how the easiest way to buy safety was to buy big – real big.

Although I knew it was pointless, I wrote him and vented about how that safety was at the expense of his neighbors. In my opinion that was an incredibly irresponsible recommendation (although technically correct); and enough for me to discontinue my subscription. There has to be a limit to selfishness.

Personally, I think they should eliminate driver's side air-bags and seat belts, and install a 9" dagger at the center of every steering wheel. ;)

[don compton]

karin kirk,
do you and your husband ever feel guilty racing your caterham?

[Karin Kirk]

karin kirk,
do you and your husband ever feel guilty racing your caterham?
He derives so much pleasure from it that guilt never factors into the equation. Plus, a full day's racing uses only a couple of gallons of gas; much less than a drive to a bike race or similar day trip.

That said, he has made improvements to the car to improve its efficiency, which also make it faster, so it's a win-win. If the car were some sort of V-8 gas guzzler that was towed to events with a truck and trailer, I would feel differently. But this is a remarkably low-impact way to do autocross.

Dave just left for the first event for the year - and for a change it's not snowing today, so Dave was pretty happy about that! :)

[YO!!!]

For years my wife, the future oil baroness, & I used to joke about the pittance she received from her grandparent's oil royalty. It was barely enough to pay the taxes each year. Now it covers the cost of our fuel consumption. :banana:

[Grant McLean]

He derives so much pleasure from it that guilt never factors into the equation. Plus, a full day's racing uses only a couple of gallons of gas; much less than a drive to a bike race or similar day trip.

That said, he has made improvements to the car to improve its efficiency, which also make it faster, so it's a win-win. If the car were some sort of V-8 gas guzzler that was towed to events with a truck and trailer, I would feel differently. But this is a remarkably low-impact way to do autocross.

Dave just left for the first event for the year - and for a change it's not snowing today, so Dave was pretty happy about that! :)

I hear David bought carbon offsets in commuter credits.
How many miles in bunny slippers between the kitchen and workshop?
Must be nice to save the time too.

-g

[M.Sommers]

I'm saving up for a carbon fiber palanquin.

:beer:

[csm]

the eurovan has a 2.5l inline 5 in it. it's an audi block.

[csm]

I ususally stay around 65 in it. one trick is to make certain the fresh water and gray water tanks are both drained.

[Ozz]

Personally, I think they should eliminate driver's side air-bags and seat belts, and install a 9" dagger at the center of every steering wheel. ;)
I saw that show...."World's Worst Drivers"...or something like that...the above was a suggestion by a British driving instructor to make people drive more safely. :cool:

[RPS]

I saw that show...."World's Worst Drivers"...or something like that...the above was a suggestion by a British driving instructor to make people drive more safely. :cool:It has been proven that as cars are made safer drivers take more chances thereby offsetting much of the improvements. There is no reason to think the opposite wouldn’t work just as well. I could just see Ralph Nader's reaction to this idea.

[RPS]

the eurovan has a 2.5l inline 5 in it. it's an audi block.I ususally stay around 65 in it. one trick is to make certain the fresh water and gray water tanks are both drained.Thanks csm, I appreciate it. Helps me validate estimates for reducing fuel consumption by making the engine work harder and thereby more efficient. From a vehicle function standpoint I went from 8 to 16 MPG by downsizing, but would like to see at least 20 MPG in the future if at all possible. Unfortunately my engine is so oversized at present that driving slower doesn’t improve matters much.

[fiamme red]

Pray-in at S.F. gas station asks God to lower prices (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/26/BUCN10C1KR.DTL)

[72gmc]

My good old truck (10 mpg) is reserved for occasional disposals and deliveries; 10 to 1 my wife was shoveling mulch out of it until the rain started a few moments ago.

Even though we get 24 mpg in the wife's Element, prices are still affecting our plans, i.e. summer vacation at home this year to work on projects.

[Tobias]

Pray-in at S.F. gas station asks God to lower prices (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/26/BUCN10C1KR.DTL)So God sets gas prices now.
Don't people have anything better to do?
And I ask as I type on a bicycle forum? :rolleyes:

BTW, how did this guy get from D.C. to San Francisco?
I'm sure he's doing his part to curb waste. :crap:

[mikki]

Not too much. My home visits and working at hospitals 55 miles apart from one another are mileages that I cannot change and my RX 300 only gets about 17-19 mpg. It is nearly ten years old now however and I am seriously contemplating a Prius although I think they look like an insect.

The 50 mpg Prius looks pretty inviting when compared with my current SUV. I would save approximately $2,100.00 per year in gas. (not considering the prices for gas are probably even going up further).

At least my bike is small so it fits in the Prius with the seats down in back and when I take the bike out, my massage table fits in....barely. Additionally I will be able to get the hybrid tax brake and travel in the car pool lane. Will also help the environment just a bit; I like that.

[xlbs]

nobody seems to know that hybrid batteries are very costly to produce in terms of nasty heavy metals, acids, and other bits of "stuff" that are very unfriendly. When they are disposed of, these batteries are also very costly to our environment.

Why is it that hybrids are generally a leased option? Because the Honda and Toyota folks don't really want to tell you that when your battery quits at 100,000 miles it's going to cost you about $7,000 to replace it...

Even if diesels produce some particulate matter more than those gasoline engines, they do not produce 20X that of a gasoline engine.

I have owned three VW tdi's and have found them to be very fuel efficient---45+ mpg (USA gallons) at highway speeds.

I am waiting for the new ultra low emission diesels to hit the Canadian market in a few more months.

Think about the whole production process, from components, to factory, to road, to junk yard, and a good filtered out diesel is a way better option than a hybrid...imho...just sayin'

And, yes, I have changed my driving habits. I use the speed control a lot more, set at reduced speeds. Since I drive about 55,000km per year (no driving no income) I've thought about all of the parameters a lot and have concluded that simply reducing the volume of fuel that I use to get around, in a manner that reduces the WHOLE footprint of the car makes good sense.

And, we're paying just shy of $7 per gallon up here in Canada...

[xlbs]

Here's some additional fuel for the fire...

If a typical hybrid tends to last about 100K there's a serious shortfall in design parameters.

Good ol' diesels tend to last about 3X longer than a similarly powered gasoline powered car.

Is it better to scrap a nifty hybrid at, say 200K to be generous, than it is to scrap a diesel at 400K???

Too few of us think about the WHOLE footprint involved in driving, which is what Karin is encouraging us to do...

[csm]

the whole surrounding aura of hybrids is that they make people feel better. I forgot about the whole battery issue. Toyota did have the foresight to design more space into their hybrids for future forward battery designs. their thought is that better and better batteries will be developed and some retrofitting should be doable.
that being said, I still think they make little sense for the average driver. I do like the diesel idea and have been researching conversions for my eurovan camper.
rumor has it that Honda will have a diesel over here in the next few years.

[mikki]

the whole surrounding aura of hybrids is that they make people feel better. I forgot about the whole battery issue. Toyota did have the foresight to design more space into their hybrids for future forward battery designs. their thought is that better and better batteries will be developed and some retrofitting should be doable.
that being said, I still think they make little sense for the average driver. I do like the diesel idea and have been researching conversions for my eurovan camper.
rumor has it that Honda will have a diesel over here in the next few years.

Al Gore's son was stopped about half a mile from my place for going 102 in his Prius last year..wonder what mpg he was averaging?

Ford told me that their replacement batteries are $150.00 and that the car (Escape hybrid)does not self destruct in 150,000 miles like people believe hybrids do. Not sure about Toyota's hybrids, but am intrigued by the posts above and will research further. But diesel? Diesel is now $4.50/gallon around the corner from my place now. At that price and with the raise in price certainly to come in the future, I will try to make the best choice for me for gas consumption as well as the best choice I can discover that will help the environment; I'm sure I will learn more as time goes on.

Does clean diesel fuel deliver higher miles per gallon than a hybrid engine? How clean is clean as far as emissions go?

Wow. I can't imagine paying $7.00 a gallon per gas like they are in Canada. I wonder if that is in our future?

[xlbs]

but I don't know the numbers. The new diesels are rated as ultra low emissions vehicles...

Sadly, we are gouged at the pumps with taxes at both government levels. Even though Canada has some of the largest oil reserves in the world, and even though we supply the majority of the oil to the USA (not the middle east any more---Canada!!) we are still paying more at the pumps than you are.

Our prices are per litre.

Diesel is about $1.25 per litre X 4.54 = 1 Canadian gallon

1.25 X 4.54 = $5.67...

However, the prices vary considerably...

And, yes, you will be paying that for gasoline and diesel, just that we don't know when.

[Karin Kirk]

Too few of us think about the WHOLE footprint involved in driving, which is what Karin is encouraging us to do...

Very true, BUT...
I don't think the real fight here is hybrids vs diesels. Gosh, either one is a huge improvement over the present status quo. Rather than make people even more confused over their choices, I'd encourage folks to take either path, just as long as it's a significant improvement, which is not hard to do over the average 19 mpg vehicles out there.

The other day, after there was much activity on this thread and it was on my mind, I came across an SUV idling in the parking lot of a nursery. No one was in it; it was just sitting there. After I completed my purchase and came back outside, it was still sitting there running, infuriatingly. That is what we're up against, not Prius vs GTI.

That said, I do think that hybrids that don't have regenerative braking and are only a marginal improvement over traditional cars (for example, many hybrid trucks) are not worth the batteries. New diesels sound very promising, but darn it, they are not here yet! I'm really hoping our current cars can last one more year so we can explore that option.

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=mikki]Al Gore's son was stopped about half a mile from my place for going 102 in his Prius last year..wonder what mpg he was averaging?...QUOTE]
He was probably racing to make a flight on his dad's private jet.

[mschol17]

I think overall a small VW Golf TDI is more environmentally friendly than a Prius, because of the environmental impact of essentially using twice as much material for two engines.

[J.Greene]

It's amazing what driving the speed lmit will do to fuel milage. My infiniti sees a close to 20% improvement when I drive the speed limit and accelerate a little more slowly. My milage is about 50/50 highway/city.

JG

[ss-jimbo]

its not an all or nothing deal- currently not EVERYONE in the world drives large SUV do they?

what about the fact that these little econo - box cars are build like toys

is saftey a factor for anyone

Jason

Actually Toyota's, Honda's, and VW's all have outstanding crash ratings. I've seen a largely intact VW Jetta in between two really smashed up vehicles, one a large sedan and the other an SUV. Additionally, many SUVs have higher crash rates and similar death rates to the safest cars because those SUVs are more likely to get into accidents in the first place, due to less manouverability and higher likelihood of rollover. This is independent of good or bad driving, you may be a safe driver, but you can't keep the guy next to you from cutting you off, swerving into your lane. When that happens, I'd much rather be in my Jetta or my wife's Volvo (29 mph highway) than in a Tahoe or 4 Runner.

[Ken C]

. Additionally I will be able to get the hybrid tax brake and travel in the car pool lane. Will also help the environment just a bit; I like that.

If you did not purchase the Prius by September 30, 2007 you will no longer receive the Federal tax credit for any Toyota or Lexus because they sold their 60,000 hybrid. IRC-2007-96

You may still be available for a state credit, contact your tax advisor.

[Vancouverdave]

I understand the mechanics behind what drives the prices higher in Europe, but I don't understand why people here think we should pay MORE taxes.
***?
seriously?There should be AT LEAST $1 Federal gasoline tax--all of which should go back to states and the spending restricted to non-automobile transportation. Drivers should pay for mass transit. What we have now should be called socially acceptable treason--we drive lots, the money goes to people who don't really like us, and they can afford operations like 9/11/2001. Terrorism ain't cheap--do your part for Al Quaeda and keep driving more!

[William]

Anyone want to car pool with me at 4:15 a.m. ........................................
.................................................. .................................................. ...
.................................................. .................................................. ...
.................................................. .. No? :confused:








William

[Tobias]

Drivers should pay for mass transit.Can not disagree with you more.
Keep the government out of it -- they normally make the wrong decisions anyway.
There is no guarrantee that mass transit will be any more "energy" or "ecologically" efficient than other options.
Empty trains or buses (or other inefficient mass transit) are not necessarily a good answer.
Each system should be justified on its own merit. If it makes sense great.
People who live in areas where mass transit can't work should not be forced to subsidize transportation for those who live in larger cities where it may be viable.

[Ozz]

...Keep the government out of it -- they normally make the wrong decisions anyway....

...People who live in areas where mass transit can't work should not be forced to subsidize transportation for those who live in larger cities where it may be viable.
Yeah, that "Rural Electrification" program was a disaster! ;) All those city dwellers paying for the poor farmers to get electricity....what good did it do?

Just kidding with you. :)

An efficient transit system will get the city folks out of their cars. This benefits all of our society, not just the users of the system.

IMHO.... :beer:

[bhungerford]

but most of our cities are not designed for mass transit, and no one will want to pay to get them to that point.

think Raleigh, NC.....you can't ride a bike there, and there is no central business district (the triangle is all on it's own basically).

cincinnati (my home town) is terrible too, too old of a city to get decent mass transit into downtown without getting rid of the existing roads all together, which actually would probably be a good thing, maybe i'll suggest that

[sg8357]

I like this poster from Comrade Bill. VancouverDave you need this poster.

[Kirk007]

We don't have to worry anymore, Clinton and McCain have gotten together to propose bi-partisan legislation for a gas tax holiday. What a stupid pandering to the electorate fool brained idea this is.

[Fat Robert]

Can not disagree with you more.
Keep the government out of it -- they normally make the wrong decisions anyway.
There is no guarrantee that mass transit will be any more "energy" or "ecologically" efficient than other options.
Empty trains or buses (or other inefficient mass transit) are not necessarily a good answer.
Each system should be justified on its own merit. If it makes sense great.
People who live in areas where mass transit can't work should not be forced to subsidize transportation for those who live in larger cities where it may be viable.


I'm going to hypothesize about something I know nothing about -- so this post may be full of nonsense

perhaps one way to approach the transit/gas consumption problem is to target smaller areas first, rather than larger ones. In my awful little city of Rock Hill, the low-volume (by urban standards) roads are full of low-wage commuters, blue collar and service industry workers who have to drive to get to their 25,000 a year job.

say you take small cities -- 100,000 and under -- and you develop mass transit for those areas. you're taking older vehicles (you don't see working-class folks driving fuel efficient cars here...you see 80s and 90s ford and GM products) off the road, and you're providing less expensive transport for people who can't put a lot of money into the consumer economy as it is.

would it be more practicable to provide viable -- and more used -- mass transit for 10 cities of 100,000 than to one city of a million?

urban engineers and planners help me out here -- but is it possible that instead of focusing on the major urban areas, we focus on making the rest of the country more efficient...?

I dunno...I have no knowledge in this area, but that's what makes the internet great.

[sg8357]

People who live in areas where mass transit can't work should not be forced to subsidize transportation for those who live in larger cities where it may be viable.

I agree, I'd like to withdraw my tax dollars from the FAA, the Airlines
should be paying for it, not me. Roads should be funded by gas taxes,
not my income tax, $$ voted by a bunch of poltroons currying favor
with their voters. City folk shouldn't be asked fund huge goverment
ag progams for the benefit ADM shareholders etc.

Face it we have an amazingly stupid funding system where we pay
sky high taxes so we can give each other tax breaks.

[bhungerford]

i think Saab would agree...i don't know if you really want the airlines to pay for the FAA....they'd find the absolute cheapest way to do it, which probably wouldn't be the safest, and whether you fly or not, you might get a plane dropped on your house....just a thought...

but for the most part yeah, i agree that our 'funding' system is a joke.

man i hope that wasn't too political :rolleyes:

[Onno]

Even though Canada has some of the largest oil reserves in the world, and even though we supply the majority of the oil to the USA (not the middle east any more---Canada!!) we are still paying more at the pumps than you are.

Our prices are per litre.

Diesel is about $1.25 per litre X 4.54 = 1 Canadian gallon

1.25 X 4.54 = $5.67...

However, the prices vary considerably...

And, yes, you will be paying that for gasoline and diesel, just that we don't know when.

Hmmm. There are only 3.725 liters to a US gallon, however, so the correct comparison works out to about $4.69, which is almost exactly what we are paying for diesel in upstate NY. So the price of diesel in the two countries is about the same. Hope that makes you feel a little better.

Why is diesel consistently cheaper than gasoline in Canada, and consistently more than gasoline in the US?

Onno

[Acotts]

I'm going to hypothesize about something I know nothing about -- so this post may be full of nonsense

perhaps one way to appraoch the transit/gas consumptino problem is to target smaller areas first, rather than larger ones. In my awful little city of Rock Hill, the low-volume (by urban standards) roads are full of low-wage commuters. blue collar and service industry workers who have to drive to get to their 25,000 a year job.

ay you take small cities -- 100,000 and under -- and you develop mass transit for those areas. you're taking older vehicles (you don't see working-class folks driving fuel efficient cars here...you see 80s and 90s ford and GM products) off the road, and you're providing less expensive transport for people who can't put a lot of money into the consumer economy as it is.

would it be more practicable to provide viable -- and more used -- mass transit for 10 cities of 100,000 than to one city of a million?

urban engineers and planners help me out here -- but is it possible that instead of focusing on the major urban areas, we focus on making the rest of the country more efficient...?

I dunno...I have no knowledge in this area, but that's what makes the internet great.

Actually, you are on to something here. Reserach my organization has done found that the a program aimed at providing $5,000 dollars for the bottom 5% poorest income homes to be invested in energy efficiency was the greatest bang for buck gains that the government could invest in. (there was a name for the pilot program and I cannot remember it.) Each dollar spent on these homes (which are un-insulated tin can trailer homes with old-crappy HVAC units) equalled 5 dollars of electric generation offsets. So it is the right idea, just wrong area. After 5k and above the 5%, the economics take a sharp turn for the worse.

(actually, the greatest bang for the buck is that we have about 500MW of hydropower that is not being tapped becuase our hydrpower turbines are falling apart. These unharnessed dams have allready donw all the environmental dammage already, but are just not turning to produce cheap, emmisions free power. Or in the case of the NW, are being dismantled (which is their decision and I hav no pony in that fight.)

[sg8357]

i think Saab would agree...i don't know if you really want the airlines to pay for the FAA....they'd find the absolute cheapest way to do it, which probably wouldn't be the safest,:

I was pointing out that the auto\road system is public mass transit,
just the people pods are smaller than airplanes or trams.

The only truly private transport system is a guy walking,
everything else relies on some public infrastructure.

[deechee]

Sorry if I didn't read all the postings; didn't think this thread would keep going :) Anyway, I'm very amused at most people's solutions being the purchase of a smaller car. I grew up taking public transportation. I have good memories of being a kid on the bus, talking to my mom or hanging out with my friends in the back. I can't tell you how often I fell asleep on the bus in between home and school. During the many snowstorms that we were hit with this winter my gf and I got to relax and chat, and got to work/school on time thanks to the underground subway. Its a great feeling when you don't have to fight angry traffic in bad weather or accidents. You can't doze off while driving...

To answer the OP, no, my gf and I haven't changed our driving habits. Sure, we occasionally ask each other "should we drive or bike?" and we usually end up driving. We both bus/subway/bike/run/walk to work/school.

transit for smaller cities:
When I visit cities I'm usually hopping on and off buses and trains. But like Fat Robert, I have no experience in the transit industry (although I applied for a job for a company that created transit models coming out of school haha)

That said, I think mass transit in smaller cities doesn't work.

1. availability. I think this is the kicker. With the rise of the internet and 24 hour shopping, buses need to be available for everyone. You gotta be able to get to work at 8am or 8pm. If the bus only comes once an hour... well, what do you think? I hate even waiting 30 minutes for a bus. You think a person used to a car will take the bus if they have to wait all the time for a bus?

2. buses can only go so far. they can't take everyone to their doorstep and rely on a safe network of walkways for users to get home. Many smaller cities I've been to don't have sidewalks.

3. city structure. the town center is not centered geographically. If all the buses are coming from one location, and long routes are necessary, reliability usually suffers. (domino effect when a bus is delayed at one stop.) This is also a problem when trying to bring all the areas to the train station.

[Tobias]

I agree, I'd like to withdraw my tax dollars from the FAA, the Airlines
should be paying for it, not me. Roads should be funded by gas taxes,
not my income tax, $$ voted by a bunch of poltroons currying favor
with their voters. City folk shouldn't be asked fund huge goverment
ag progams for the benefit ADM shareholders etc.

Face it we have an amazingly stupid funding system where we pay
sky high taxes so we can give each other tax breaks.If we want to drive efficiency in all aspects of our lives we have to assign costs where they actually exist (or at least closer to where they exist) and let people decide just how important it really is for them to use that service. The “perceived” need is much different (and often much less efficient) when others are paying the bill. And as you mention, giving each other tax breaks – with a few exceptions -- is one of the dumbest things we can do IMHO. In almost every case it leads to inefficiency and unintended consequences (can we say corn-based Ethanol?).

I’m normally 100 percent behind free markets, but in this case where our national security depends on it, I’d gradually increase gas prices to European levels by adding taxes as needed. However, I’d also increase the taxes equally on all forms of energy, not just gasoline. Jet fuel, diesel for trucks, tractors, trains, etc….

It’s the only way I can see to avoid unintended consequences like having too many people move to big cities like New York or DC that have cheap mass transit and then have to spend a fortune to get them food from Nebraska or Kansas at the “indirect” expense of those having to buy gas in other parts of the country.

Level playing field for all works for me.