Am I being fair to the LBS's?

[handsomerob]

I went in one of my favorite local shops the other day needing a single Campy compatible derailleur cable to finish a build for a bike I sold. They no longer stock the double sided JagWire cables that I usually could pick up and are relegated to stocking only Shimano compatible cables?!?!? :crap: Is it out of line to expect to be able to pick up a cable without ordering one?

So, I went down the street to another shop I frequent and they happened to have a loose Campy cable. I said great and got out my wallet... I met the owner at the cash register and watched him ring up $10+tax!!! :bike:

In amazement I said "Really, $10 each?" He then checked his book of costs and reduced it to $7, explaining that his mark up on cables is higher because of all the ones that are unaccounted for. Should a single cable be $10?

Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?

[Charles M]

If you bought it, you answered your own question (just an Opinion)...

You paid for the service/convenience and availability and those things should be worth something...

Hell I would have sent you an unused one for free, but I don't pay to keep a spare in stock or have a staff or rent or cash flow...


If it wasn't worth it, you would have waited or looked around...

[SoCalSteve]

I hate to say it, but I find LBS prices to be higher than even "retail" online sellers...

And, even with my 15-20% discount after the 8.25% CA sales tax, inevitably it would have been cheaper to buy it online out of state.

That doesnt include the driving, parking and usually what I am looking for, they dont even have...Or, if they do have it, its not my size-color-whatever.

And, I do hate to say this, most bike store employee's know less about cycling gear than I do. They dont even realize it and they are pretty arrogant with their so called knowledge base.

I dont need the service department as I do all my own wrenching.If I need a tool, I'll just buy one as I know it will come in handy at another time as well.....For me, the LBS is just plain useless.

I know this may ruffle some peoples feathers, but, this is the way I feel about it. Your experiences may vary.

Steve

PS: I went into a big bike store the other day asking about a demo program for saddles and how great it would be...the response I got was that they do just fine selling saddles without having a saddle demo program. See my point?

[Acotts]

Aahhh, the LBS love-hate.

[gdw]

Quality generic cables are much cheaper and work as well.

[TMB]

Virtually anything I may want is unavailable at any LBS here.

It's all " we'll order it and have it for you next week"

I can get cables and cable ends, but that is about it.

I wanted a Chorus bottom bracket a couple of weeks ago, had to be ordered.

Bottle cages - Ordered.

110 mm stem for my 12 year old's bike - ordered.

I have got the point of not even asking any more.

[J.Greene]

I paid $5.49 for a gallon of Milk the other day. $10 for a cable does not seem out of line to me. Most people I know make more money than a shop owner and work less too. I buy what I can from our local shops.

Give stevep a big wet tongue kiss the next time you see him. He has earned it.

JG

[handsomerob]

If you bought it, you answered your own question (just an Opinion)...

You paid for the service/convenience and availability and those things should be worth something...

Hell I would have sent you an unused one for free, but I don't pay to keep a spare in stock or have a staff or rent or cash flow...


If it wasn't worth it, you would have waited or looked around...

There is a difference.

With this cable purchase, I walked out thinking that I should plan better so I don't have to go back.

The alternative would be I walk out thinking that I paid a fair price, it was convenient, and I feel good about supporting our local shops. Thereby wanting to come back for future purchases and not ordering everything online.

I am wondering if there are other industries where the disparity in pricing for the same items online vs. in a store is so great based solely on "convenience". Does anyone out there actually purchase GP4000's for $59.99 each?

[sg8357]

My LBS has the bulk packed stainless QBP house brand stuff, 4-5$ per cable,
works for me. He also has the official Shimano individually packed stuff at the usual silly price.

My last full modern bike build, I gave the LBS a big list of parts, the package
price was about the same as mail order. On some items he was higher, some much lower,
so I try to bundle as much as possible.
They also have the big cabinet of Sturmey Archer spares, fun.

The LBS is 10min from Performance, a depressing place, wall-mart for bikes.
The LBS hasn't noticed any hit from Performance.

[Big Daddy]

We created this monster...

Shop owners have no one to blame but themselves. Setting the expectation that if you rode from his/her shop that you would get the "good guy" discount. Or allowing the leach to buy EP because he knew how to snow the owner. So now the expectation is set that bike equipment has no value.

Where does anyone get off walking into a store and after reading a price tag on a bike ask, "is that the price?" What is so different about a retail bike shop and a retail store such as Wal-Mart or Target. Their prices are just as clearly marked on the product as that bike...you don't got to the cashier and ask about the price. If you do...pity.

I am answering my own question with my first paragraph. The LBS has done it to it self. Now, there are new concept stores popping up to try to break that image...but again, you have the problem of staffing it with reliable and knowledgeable employees, all the while creating an environment that people feel comfortable spending 5-6k on a bike. It is awful business to try to earn a living at.

Just keep in mind that you may pay a little higher on some things, and little less on others. Click and buys run on a different margin than the brick and mortars.

Support the LBS as much as you can!

[Acotts]

We created this monster...

Shop owners have no one to blame but themselves. Setting the expectation that if you rode from his/her shop that you would get the "good guy" discount. Or allowing the leach to buy EP because he knew how to snow the owner. So now the expectation is set that bike equipment has no value.

Where does anyone get off walking into a store and after reading a price tag on a bike ask, "is that the price?" What is so different about a retail bike shop and a retail store such as Wal-Mart or Target. Their prices are just as clearly marked on the product as that bike...you don't got to the cashier and ask about the price. If you do...pity.

I am answering my own question with my first paragraph. The LBS has done it to it self. Now, there are new concept stores popping up to try to break that image...but again, you have the problem of staffing it with reliable and knowledgeable employees, all the while creating an environment that people feel comfortable spending 5-6k on a bike. It is awful business to try to earn a living at.

Just keep in mind that you may pay a little higher on some things, and little less on others. Click and buys run on a different margin than the brick and mortars.

Support the LBS as much as you can!

There is a lot of precedent for these kinds of things. See cars and plane tickets and anything whose value is very demand-driven.

[chrisroph]

Single campy cables are extremely expensive everywhere. You can get an entire cable/housing set for brakes, drlrs for about $40 but you have to expect to pay a bunch for a single inner wire. And you didn't say if it was front or rear. I seem to have lying around good condition rears from bikes I stripped/sold/rebuilt that are easy to trim down and use for a front in a pinch.

[J.Greene]

An interesting side note. Shipping is cheaper than buying gas to get to my favorite shop in Orlando. I live and work in a northern burb. Gas has to be eating at the lbs right now me thinks.

JG

[bhungerford]

yeah, most LBSs don't stock 'everything' that one would want, but how can they with the small margins that they do make, and the huge selection of different parts, so you want a Chorus BB, darn they only have the Record, or whatever....it costs them money to have every option in the store, they (the good ones) try their best to stock what their usuals have. keep walking into them, talking to them, even if you don't buy anything, just talk bikes with them (preferably a manager/owner, not the part timer) they'll get a feel for what you need and most likely start stocking it. or ask them to, that's not unreasonable, but they might want to check their records and actually see how many of whatever you want them to stock has been selling...

BUT, there are some new ideas for the LBS popping up around the country, oriented more towards proper fit and having the knowledge we want....yes they don't have a huge inventory, but the couple days wait for a part that their knowledge helps you decide on is probably worth. and by not having the big inventory they can offer lower prices to compete with the online crap....


i see LBSes going one of two ways....fit studio/boutique or huge high volume/multiple location/online presence...the day of the one store middle of the road LBS is going to die, they can't compete with the knowledge of the boutique, and can't compete with the volume and low prices of the big chain stores.

of course this is all just my rant ATMO :beer:

[ndoshi72c]

Shimano cable + bench grinder

I think the mistake the shop made was the price not being stated immediately when the cable was handed to you.

That being said I work at a shop that does not stock Campy cables, and I hardly regret it.

[Ken Robb]

I think it's reasonable to pay retail at the LBS for stuff that I need and they have in stock. OTOH, if I go there and find they don't have what I need in stock I'm not likely to have them order it for me, have to go back when the order arrives and pay retail for the convenience that I didn't get.

If they don't have it I'll order it online, maybe pay less, and have it delivered to me.

The owner of one of my favorite LBS told me he'd prefer that his customers order small stuff that he doesn't stock on-line or mail-order because it was too much trouble for him to do it for a small gross profit. He's a pal and he wasn't being rude--just stating his opinion.

[BURCH]

...reduced it to $7, explaining that his mark up on cables is higher because of all the ones that are unaccounted for. Should a single cable be $10?

Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?

If I read your post right, he was charging extra because he was missing cables from his stock? I am surprised he was so candid with you about that. I guess he doesn't want to lose money and had to adjust is prices to cover lost items, but that sucks for his customers like you.

And yes, I think that we have all gotten spoiled by online shopping. Before a mtn bike trip a few weeks ago, I found that I needed a new middle chainring. I went to two bike shops nearby and they didn't have the part but could get it within a week. I didn't have the time to wait that long so I ordered it online and it was here in two days...

I love bike shops and like supporting them, but you can't beat buying online sometimes.

[bhungerford]

that is the tough part, sometimes you absolutely have to have something the next day, and it's sad that the LBS usually can't get you that out of stock item that quickly where some online store half way across the country can....the online guys have a place, and the truely good LBS does too, but the middle of the road (like 98% of them) LBSes are dead or soon will be.

[swoop]

this isn't directed to steve.. its just me saying stuff out loud:


you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?

no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?
why is it so hard?

[bhungerford]

....we're lucky we have some of these truely knowledgable industry folk chatting with us :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

t

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.

i love this guy.
he makes sensemo.
if he wasn't a man of my own gender, i'd kiss him.
if pucci wasn't already the pope, swoop would be atmo.
he'd be the total package if only he could fish.
....we're lucky we have some of these truely knowledgable industry folk chatting with us :beer:
preen. gloat. atmo.
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[Big Daddy]

you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?

no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?
why is it so hard?

i couldn't have said better myself...(even if i did)

[Pete Serotta]

watch that kiss from e-richie (I will give you wine, although I might "borrow" it from Mr Brynes :beer:

this isn't directed to steve.. its just me saying stuff out loud:


you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?

no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?
why is it so hard?

[ecl2k]

Yeah bike shops are capitalist enterprises so if they can't meet or exceed the level of service provided by online shopping then they deserve to go under and let Walmart, Kmart, and big sporting goods stores take over their less discerning customers (ie about 95% off them). The rest will either go online or find high-end specialty shops, sort of like what you see with hi-fi audio/video equipment. I'm not here to subsidize my LBS by paying $10 for an inner cable.

[swoop]

Yeah bike shops are capitalist enterprises so if they can't meet or exceed the level of service provided by online shopping then they deserve to go under and let Walmart, Kmart, and big sporting goods stores take over their less discerning customers (ie about 95% off them). The rest will either go online or find high-end specialty shops, sort of like what you see with hi-fi audio/video equipment. I'm not here to subsidize my LBS by paying $10 for an inner cable.

is this about one transaction or about the relationship? if its got a sku number it has a price... and if the mechanic didn't hook you up... and you've now been painfully failed by the shop... its time to buy stockloads of your own cable.

i would have said to the owner... hey, before i buy that can we check to see if you have any laying around. i'd love a hook up, i'll buy all the guys coffee while you look. or i would have said.. ok ten bucks.. but only if you do the install... it kinda hurts my feelings to pay for it.. like you don't love me anymore... if a buy these socks and some magazine can you look the other way.. i'll pay for the install? no? ok.. no worries.. maybe next time.

i just don't see the big deal. my bike shop always looks out for me.. but i look out for them too. that includes caring about the guys that work there, helping them with their riding, knowing all their names, calling to see if i can get coffee in the way in... etc...

the other shops in town..even though i know the owners.. i don't take care of them and i don't expect them to take care of me.... i expect to pay for everything.

achieving bro-hood is a long term process that requires a lot of gardening.
i wouldn't take it to this weird place.
atmo.

p.s., joni, i made scott text you pics of his baby while i was there today. i got you!

[e-RICHIE]

Yeah bike shops are capitalist enterprises so if they can't meet or exceed the level of service provided by online shopping then they deserve to go under and let Walmart, Kmart, and big sporting goods stores take over their less discerning customers (ie about 95% off them). The rest will either go online or find high-end specialty shops, sort of like what you see with hi-fi audio/video equipment. I'm not here to subsidize my LBS by paying $10 for an inner cable.
but if you need an inner cable like the OP did,
you'll subsidize the LBS, right? i mean, no one
with a bicycle the likes of which we discuss
here should be balking at all. unless you ride
a fixed gear, that 5-8 thou unit of yours won't
function without these cables. and they don't
pop on a routine basis, do they? so what the
eff is 7 or 10 dollars in the scheme of things?
really atmo.
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[Fixed]

i even tip the mechanics.
bro if you don't know a good wrench your screwed cos a lot suck imho

cheers

[SoCalSteve]

this isn't directed to steve.. its just me saying stuff out loud:


you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?
no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?why is it so hard?

Its totally cool if it was intended for me. I'm a big boy and am entitled to my opinion as well as you are to yours. Thats what makes the world such a great and interesting place.

I see it as us being consumers and spending our hard earned dollars, we have every right to feel a sense of entitlement and we have every right to make the choice of where we spend those hard earned dollars. If we can and want to buy expensive coffee, thats our right. If we want a donut shop coffee, thats our right as well.

When a bike store aligns itself with a club or racing team and offers a discount, then why should they not live up to those expectations? If they cannot afford to give the discount, then it shouldnt be offered in the first place.

I am not sure if you have noticed or not, but go into a Sears, car dealership, consumer electronics store, etc, etc, etc....there is a HUGE amount of bargaining going on. It is expected in this day and age of consumers being so wel informed.

To me, the biggest joke of all is when you called a bike store a resource. I have learned more from this forum, mail order catalogues, riding with people and the Internet than I ever have from a bike store employee. They never see beyond what they sell. I find this to be true for most all salesman in all walks of life, not just bike store employee's. Its truly sad.

As for bike store mechanics, well...dont get me started. I think it is an epedemic in this country that people just do not take pride in their work. Again, very sad.

We are talking bike stores, but this is true for just about any sales-service oriented business these days. Its the exception, not the rule when you find someone who goes out their way to do an extra special great job.

Brendan at CC has the right idea with the saddle demo program. Its a win-win situation from a business standpoint and for the consumer. When I approached the manager and buyer of a very large bike store about this very topic, I got a big brush off. Again, very sad that people are so closed minded.

Why is it the shops problem that they should help someone find the right saddle? You are so right, we need bike stores that resemble grocery stores and employees who do nothing more than work as checkers scanning the saddles and bottom brackets that we pick off the shelfs...see my point? Why is it so hard?

Thats all, rant over.

Steve

PS: Swoop, I still love you more than life itself!

[Dino]

A favorite motorcycle shop of mine had a sign above the parts counter that read somthing like:

"Since 1971, Kawasaki Motors has produced 7,976,583 parts. We stock everyone except the one you need right now. In which case we will gladly order it for you."

The internet has divided us (as consumers) in terms of how we distribute our patronage. I've bought things (brands) I would have never even heard of, if not for the web. And likewise, I've stayed true to many-a-local brick and mortar businesses for fear of what I've seen on the net.

[swoop]

i love you tons mr. steve and that love is in a safe place!... so, you get 25% from the shop right?
i raced 50 plus races a year for them for two years... every freaking weekend rain or shine, injured or not and even showed up when i couldn't race for the flu or broken ribs, i let guys i've never met ride my bike (hi mitch), walk people in to buy stuff, test stuff for them, and i get 25% off.... and i tip the mechanics, give employees old gear, and i smell like vanilla lotion which is a beautiful thing. you and me get the same discount.

a saddle demo program is more labor than profit for them.. that's fine by me. its a high volume shop. i don't even go to the main store because my relationships are at the smaller ones and i dont want to get in the way for the grind of it all (hi jay and adam).
if you belong to the club, there's that message board with that club and 400 something members... and that club (lagrange?) is full of great folks with tons o gear.. i'll bet on that board is every saddle you can imagine trying....
and then without the hassle of letting strangers ride your bike, and showing up every weekend for years... you get the same discount.
that seems pretty chill to me. 25% just for belonging to the club.... i think that's a great deal.

(end swoopy rant)! there is no other part of life i get a discount for showing up and sucking as bad as i do on a bike.

[stevep]

steve,
stay out of bike shops. not worth the fury.
me, i'm just standing in the rain at 5:30 am sweeping the roads for the crit that i am running for local riders over the next 5 hours.
i do it for you too... i do it for love of the sport... i dont need your $10.
fix your own bike. just stop crying about guys like me trying to make a living.
other steve

Its totally cool if it was intended for me. I'm a big boy and am entitled to my opinion as well as you are to yours. Thats what makes the world such a great and interesting place.

I see it as us being consumers and spending our hard earned dollars, we have every right to feel a sense of entitlement and we have every right to make the choice of where we spend those hard earned dollars. If we can and want to buy expensive coffee, thats our right. If we want a donut shop coffee, thats our right as well.

When a bike store aligns itself with a club or racing team and offers a discount, then why should they not live up to those expectations? If they cannot afford to give the discount, then it shouldnt be offered in the first place.

I am not sure if you have noticed or not, but go into a Sears, car dealership, consumer electronics store, etc, etc, etc....there is a HUGE amount of bargaining going on. It is expected in this day and age of consumers being so wel informed.

To me, the biggest joke of all is when you called a bike store a resource. I have learned more from this forum, mail order catalogues, riding with people and the Internet than I ever have from a bike store employee. They never see beyond what they sell. I find this to be true for most all salesman in all walks of life, not just bike store employee's. Its truly sad.

As for bike store mechanics, well...dont get me started. I think it is an epedemic in this country that people just do not take pride in their work. Again, very sad.

We are talking bike stores, but this is true for just about any sales-service oriented business these days. Its the exception, not the rule when you find someone who goes out their way to do an extra special great job.

Brendan at CC has the right idea with the saddle demo program. Its a win-win situation from a business standpoint and for the consumer. When I approached the manager and buyer of a very large bike store about this very topic, I got a big brush off. Again, very sad that people are so closed minded.

Why is it the shops problem that they should help someone find the right saddle? You are so right, we need bike stores that resemble grocery stores and employees who do nothing more than work as checkers scanning the saddles and bottom brackets that we pick off the shelfs...see my point? Why is it so hard?

Thats all, rant over.

Steve

PS: Swoop, I still love you more than life itself!

[deechee]

why does a small shop have to go high end to survive? its all about honesty.

I'm like swoop, I developed a relationship with my LBS over 11 years. It takes time but its a two way street. My LBS's primary market are kids with mountain bikes (was me) and the casual commuter. Its definitely not a high end shop like some of the high end, but "cold" LBSs I've been to. I'm comfortable there. I don't question the prices; I just call ahead of time, order what I want, and eventually go pick it up. I don't have to waste my time looking up prices online; I know I get a deal with these guys. In fact, they'll tell me if I can get certain deals online; and I'll tell them when a shop in town is promoting lower prices.

Its like a good mechanic/plumber/contractor. Once you find a good one, they're worth paying for. Usually they treat you fairly in return. I love my LBS. Now if only I could get the guy to enroll in the Serotta fit school...

[SoCalSteve]

i love you tons mr. steve and that love is in a safe place!... so, you get 25% from the shop right?
i raced 50 plus races a year for them for two years... every freaking weekend rain or shine, injured or not and even showed up when i couldn't race for the flu or broken ribs, i let guys i've never met ride my bike (hi mitch), walk people in to buy stuff, test stuff for them, and i get 25% off.... and i tip the mechanics, give employees old gear, and i smell like vanilla lotion which is a beautiful thing. you and me get the same discount.
a saddle demo program is more labor than profit for them.. that's fine by me. its a high volume shop. i don't even go to the main store because my relationships are at the smaller ones and i dont want to get in the way for the grind of it all (hi jay and adam).
if you belong to the club, there's that message board with that club and 400 something members... and that club (lagrange?) is full of great folks with tons o gear.. i'll bet on that board is every saddle you can imagine trying....
and then without the hassle of letting strangers ride your bike, and showing up every weekend for years... you get the same discount.
that seems pretty chill to me. 25% just for belonging to the club.... i think that's a great deal.
(end swoopy rant)!

I get 15% to 20% depending on the item. I was/am/will be again a Team In Training Cycling Coach. I think that entitles me to as much of a discount as you as a racer. We both use our influence (because of our positions) to encourage people to go to certain bike stores over others.

We are very much the same in that respect, yet very different.

Sherry and I are members of LA Wheelman at the moment. Maybe at some point we will join La Grange as I think it would be great to spend more time with Tom Byrnes and his group of people.

As for the saddle demo program, I think it could be a win-win situation for both the retailer and consumer. I dont think Brendan would have done it if he didnt think so either.

I too think Adam and Jay are good people. I have had problems with some of the managers-empoyees of the smaller stores. Maybe its me, maybe its them...I just know that I do not give them my business anymore.

I dont think we should share our feelings of love for each other anymore on this forum, people may start to wonder.

Just sayin'

Steve

[SoCalSteve]

steve,
stay out of bike shops. not worth the fury.
me, i'm just standing in the rain at 5:30 am sweeping the roads for the crit that i am running for local riders over the next 5 hours.
i do it for you too... i do it for love of the sport... i dont need your $10.
fix your own bike. just stop crying about guys like me trying to make a living.
other steve

I imagine you are the exception to the rule. More power to you for your love and passion! I truly mean this!!!

the OTHER Steve

[swoop]

how's this.. for the record.. i even forgo the grey market (not all the time mind you), skip the 25% off at the local store, and buy stuff full retail from competitive cyclist just to support brendan and company to spread the love.

(jeez.. no wonder i'm this broke).

so.. clearly i have issues.

[handsomerob]

but if you need an inner cable like the OP did,
you'll subsidize the LBS, right? i mean, no one
with a bicycle the likes of which we discuss
here should be balking at all. unless you ride
a fixed gear, that 5-8 thou unit of yours won't
function without these cables. and they don't
pop on a routine basis, do they? so what the
eff is 7 or 10 dollars in the scheme of things?
really atmo.

As far as sheer costs go, compared to a $5000 bike frame that was ordered 5 years in advance, or a set of $550 SRAM Red shifters, $10 for a cable is a drop in a very big well.

However, when you are building a complete bike for $350 as a favor for a friend, and you are throwing in shoes, cleats, saddle bag, cages, tri-bars, cyclometer, etc...you try to watch the costs a little closer.

Is $10 a lot to spend on a bike... not really. But it does seem like a lot to spend on a cable.

How many golfers prefer to stock up on Pro V1's when they get to the golf shop at the chi-chi private course in town? Should they feel guilty for going to the Sports Authority to save 30% on balls that are likely going to be shanked in the drink anyway? :rolleyes:

I don't complain about shop rates and I understand the value of getting a properly fit bike from a LBS, I just don't see the value in basic parts at a 30% premium.

[swoop]

my last defense...
the mark-up on the big ticket items is so much smaller than you think. the shrinking dollar against the euro is putting tons of stuff out of reach, and the internet makes some things tough.
the profit is in soft goods and keystone items.

they got to take some money off you somewhere.

but if you're unhappy.. speak up to the source. they're just people trying to make a living... but it is about relationships.

i still can't believe that some jerseys cost 200 bucks???? *** rapha?

[goonster]

To me, the biggest joke of all is when you called a bike store a resource. I have learned more from this forum, mail order catalogues, riding with people and the Internet than I ever have from a bike store employee. They never see beyond what they sell.

Well, then I feel bad for you. Of course, bike shop folk can't possibly spend the amount of time I spend online showing me the ropes, but over the years I've benefited greatly from the two or three shops.

This isn't directed at anyone specifically:

There are people who buy everything online. Every once in a while they comb through various LBS's looking for closeout deals or NOS stuff you can't find elsewhere, but they do almost none of their bread-and-butter shopping at the shop. Their dollars go everywhere but the LBS. Then, on a Saturday morning, they need a cable, and they need it now. It can't wait. The LBS charges them ten bucks and our hero says, "See! It's because of cr@p like this that I don't shop at the LBS."

I can't understand that. :crap:

Here's an example of how my LBS gouges me. Shirk's has a big pile of JPW Frame Saver. (Just the fact that he has this stuff in stock makes him a treasure, but I digress.) On each can is printed "MSRP $12". Next to that is Luke's green price sticker. $10. OMFG teh GREED!

[jerk]

a campy derailleur cable wholesales for $3.33....

how much would you like it to sell for? seven bucks for a campy cable or five bucks for a tube 7000 times in a row might allow your shop to price match those "retail mailorder" shops on that new colnago.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

As far as sheer costs go, compared to a $5000 bike frame that was ordered 5 years in advance, or a set of $550 SRAM Red shifters, $10 for a cable is a drop in a very big well.
i don't think the cost issue is rooted in whether or
not one waits for a bicycle to be made to order.
most folks reading here are riding expensive units.

However, when you are building a complete bike for $350 as a favor for a friend, and you are throwing in shoes, cleats, saddle bag, cages, tri-bars, cyclometer, etc...you try to watch the costs a little closer.

Is $10 a lot to spend on a bike... not really. But it does seem like a lot to spend on a cable.

when i hear stories like this, i often wonder, "how
much do you want to pay for that cable?" the part
costs the same whether the bicycle is $350 or if
it's $8350 atmo. you want a cheaper cable because
it's not a serotta?
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[handsomerob]

steve,
stay out of bike shops. not worth the fury.
me, i'm just standing in the rain at 5:30 am sweeping the roads for the crit that i am running for local riders over the next 5 hours.
i do it for you too... i do it for love of the sport... i dont need your $10.
fix your own bike. just stop crying about guys like me trying to make a living.
other steve

stevep, I got a bike from you for my friend (he absolutely loves it BTW) at an incredibly good price. You were fantastic to deal with, very generous, and knowledgeable in a way that makes me confident that I would walk away from any purchase from you feeling like I had got a great value. I can only hope that people that do business like you would be successful.

This goes back to my original question... am I being fair to the LBS's? When do you think the premium to buy from the LBS becomes unreasonable?

[e-RICHIE]

This goes back to my original question... am I being fair to the LBS's? When do you think the premium to buy from the LBS becomes unreasonable?
you think it's (the 10 dollar cable) a premium.
what did you want/expect to pay?
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[goonster]

am I being fair to the LBS's?

Sort of.

Ten bucks really is a lot for a cable. But it would be unfair of you to judge that LBS on the basis of this one cable, just as it would be unfair of them to label you tightwad based on this single transaction.

When is a $10 cable not a $10 cable? When the shop guys know you, and know you'll be back.

[thejen12]

I don't complain about shop rates and I understand the value of getting a properly fit bike from a LBS, I just don't see the value in basic parts at a 30% premium.
The value is that they had it right there when you needed it. If you want that convenience to go away, feel free to buy everything mail-order. Obviously, you thought it was worth it at the time, or you would have walked off without buying it.

Jenn

[handsomerob]

i don't think the cost issue is rooted in whether or
not one waits for a bicycle to be made to order.
most folks reading here are riding expensive units.

you're right, the timeline (yours or anyone elses) is not really an issue as a function of cost. I guess it just further diminishes the importance of a $10 part when build time arrives.

when i hear stories like this, i often wonder, "how
much do you want to pay for that cable?" the part
costs the same whether the bicycle is $350 or if
it's $8350 atmo. you want a cheaper cable because
it's not a serotta?

Jerk said that Campy cables wholesale at $3.33. The original quoted price of $10 was 3 times the cost which I personally think is unreasonable for most any item. I think a fair mark up would be at or less than 100%. What bike the cable is intended for is of no consequence.

This is the same LBS that I ordered 4 sets of G springs from. The cost was IIRC $2/each and he charged me $4/each. They can be had cheaper than $32 for 8 online but it was a reasonable premium to order from them. At the time I didn't know how to order them thinking that each lever would need a right and left G spring so I ordered 4 right and 4 left.... which as you know is 2 sets for each shifter. I wanted 4 sets for only the right shifters (2 sets for current projects and 2 more for future). The mistake was mine and I paid him as agreed. (if anyone needs some G springs for a left shifter let me know ;) )

[swoop]

wholesale was 3.33.

how did the cable get from qbp to the bike shop?
was it shipped?
so lets factor in a shipping cost.
hey, who ordered the cable? was someone on the clock when it was ordered?
labor cost.
hey, did someone receive the cable and unpack it?
labor cost again.
did the cable get entered into the system and put in stock?
labor cost again.
did that all happen in a place or just in a tent on a lot?
rent.


you couldn't comparison shop at another local shop and say.. hey, how come its less there, match this price? (retail is 9.99)

what is it you want that you're not getting the answer you think you should?
they charge what they charge.... it isn't like the cable magically appears.


its not like penis theft.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL22903232.html

[swoop]

9.99 at competitive cyclist.. and then shipping and tax.

[handsomerob]

you think it's (the 10 dollar cable) a premium.
what did you want/expect to pay?

I didn't think that a single cable would be more than $5, which is the most I have ever paid (and I have bought at least 2 dozen from at least 3 different shops).

So, in defense of my point of reference, $10 was twice as much as I had ever paid for a cable from his shop or any other. I paid $7 for the cable (not begrudgingly) and told him thank you as I left. Now that I know the cost was around $3.33, I think $7 for the cable might be a little high but a reasonable price for the convenience.

[gdw]

The initial charge was unreasonable and is born out by the actions of the owner. The guy tried, got caught, and surrendered immediately after being questioned.

PS - Jenson USA, Excel, etc are quite a bit less expensive than CC.

[e-RICHIE]

I didn't think that a single cable would be more than $5, which is the most I have ever paid (and I have bought at least 2 dozen from at least 3 different shops).

So, in defense of my point of reference, $10 was twice as much as I had ever paid for a cable from his shop or any other. I paid $7 for the cable (not begrudgingly) and told him thank you as I left. Now that I know the cost was around $3.33, I think $7 for the cable might be a little high but a reasonable price for the convenience.
perhaps (and i mean this sincerely...) you could have
addressed this to the LBS. he is there for you. if you
think some incidental is over-the-top too much money,
why not feign some incredulity?! no one likes to seem
like a whiner, but it's his cable you want, not his daughter.
i doubt it would get too personal, and then you'd have
a dialogue that would also include his p.o.v. atmo.
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[coylifut]

Steve,

It's somewhat confounding to me that in a city of LA's size you haven't found one LBS where you feel good about rewarding them with some of your business. I drive by 5 shops, including one where I get a discount to frequent one where I get no break at all. I treat 'em like Swoop does.

I'm a cyclocross racer so sure I do 99.9% of my own wrenching, but I'm not going to buy a crown race race puller at $120 to use once ever other year.

Having a good relationship really comes in handy regarding warranty issues. More than once the above shop has gone to bat on my behalf regarding gear that's prematurely failed. Most recently, they took care of me after a SRAM shifter gave up the ghost after 3 uses. I have no confidence that a mail order store out of Ireland would do the same. Yes. I too buy some items mail for price and convenience, but there's some good people out there. You simply haven't had the fortune of finding them yet.



I get 15% to 20% depending on the item. I was/am/will be again a Team In Training Cycling Coach. I think that entitles me to as much of a discount as you as a racer. We both use our influence (because of our positions) to encourage people to go to certain bike stores over others.

We are very much the same in that respect, yet very different.

Sherry and I are members of LA Wheelman at the moment. Maybe at some point we will join La Grange as I think it would be great to spend more time with Tom Byrnes and his group of people.

As for the saddle demo program, I think it could be a win-win situation for both the retailer and consumer. I dont think Brendan would have done it if he didnt think so either.

I too think Adam and Jay are good people. I have had problems with some of the managers-empoyees of the smaller stores. Maybe its me, maybe its them...I just know that I do not give them my business anymore.

I dont think we should share our feelings of love for each other anymore on this forum, people may start to wonder.

Just sayin'

Steve

[Acotts]

swoop, here is the difference. You are in the club. Those of us not in the club, get annoyed with the bad attitude and steep cover charge.

[xlbs]

One of the toughest things that I felt that I had to explain to my customers was the reality of maintaining a retail store. Here's a story that may help some of you to understand how this world works...

My store developed a significant following in the tandem market after several years of hard work. My mark-ups were more than reasonable for the area, time involved in selling, setting up, servicing these bikes. In addition to all of the issues around rent, staffing, and ancillary costs involved in managing the store itself, we also had to pay constantly increasing business taxes. I saw these taxes as a necessary evil because the corollary to paying these taxes was being able to do business in the rapidly growing community in which I had built up my store.

I had three other tandem selling competitors, two of whom became friends and allies over time. The third store was run by a couple who were both employed full-time "not at the store" and who ran a "store" out of their garage. When I explained to them that I was not interested in supporting them by sharing/swapping inventory on a short-term basis they were incensed at me. I explained to them that I disapproved of their market activities; according to a number of reports from customers, they were undercutting the three full retail stores by significant dollar amounts AND then sending these same customers to us for "emergency services" when they weren't open, suggesting that we'd offer these same customers a "better" price for labour. I further explained to these folks that they weren't carrying on a true business because they weren't paying business taxes on a retail outlet, nor were they truly helping out the 'cycling community because they were merely selling discounted products...Needless to explain more, we chose not to support "their" customers, and worked harder at providing full quality services on a full-time basis...

Here's my point...internet-based selling is great for bits and pieces, and for more if you are a knowledgeable buyer__all well and good__just like the garage sellers as above.

But, store-based retailers face considerably higher cost market pressures just to keep the door open. $10 may seem like a lot to pay for a single item, but do remember that each business model a person/entrepreneur chooses has the freedom to charge as they wish against the expenses that they know they have to meet.

Most lbs types try really hard to please their customers according to the business model they have chosen. Some of them may not be gurus, or even interested in being gurus. Some others may stock deep inventories, while still others may hire kids without much knowledge because they need bodies to put bicycles out the door.

You don't have to patronize ANY lbs. If they don't merit your business, don't buy there! But, please don't slag away at folks trying to sell bicycles and encourage folks to ride just because their business model doesn't fit into your idea of what a bicycle store should be!!!

just sayin'

[davids]

What's the wholesale on a Legend Ti? I'm thinking I'm not paying more that 10% above that. That's a fair price for me, because I ride my bike a lot.


p.s. I'm being facetious. A good relationship with a local shop is very valuable, and I find that it goes both ways - I treat 'my' shops respectfully and fairly, and I find they do the same. Sometimes I actually feel I get more than I really deserve... My personal relationships have been key, more so than I understood when they began - the good guys have proven to be just that. And any 'problems' I've had have been with folks I didn't personally know.

[handsomerob]

perhaps (and i mean this sincerely...) you could have
addressed this to the LBS. he is there for you. if you
think some incidental is over-the-top too much money,
why not feign some incredulity?! no one likes to seem
like a whiner, but it's his cable you want, not his daughter.
i doubt it would get too personal, and then you'd have
a dialogue that would also include his p.o.v. atmo.

I have had that conversation before... twice. Once with him when I was ordering the G springs letting him know that his price was a little higher than I had seen but it was worth it to spend locally.

Also once with another shop owner at our real boutique store (avg bike around $2k+, with C50's, 595s, and plenty of $5k+ bikes around). I was trying to persuade him to carry Stella Azzurra bar wrap. He has a ton of older Profile Design bar wrap in really off colors (think construction orange) that he just isn't selling at all. He also had NO white bar wrap?!?!? I told him that I thought this tape would look REALLY good on some of his higher end stuff and that it wasn't very expensive ($14.99 @ pricepoint). He said his cost would probably be close to that (I don't think he ever checked), but I told him that he could charge around $21.99 for it and I would still be happy to buy it from him. I even came back the next week and gave him a roll to try, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

Also, to be perfectly clear, I understand how overhead works and do not expect a brick and mortar store to be able to charge the same price as online sellers, my question is with regards to the % of difference.

[SoCalSteve]

Steve,

It's somewhat confounding to me that in a city of LA's size you haven't found one LBS where you feel good about rewarding them with some of your business. I drive by 5 shops, including one where I get a discount to frequent one where I get no break at all. I treat 'em like Swoop does.

I'm a cyclocross racer so sure I do 99.9% of my own wrenching, but I'm not going to buy a crown race race puller at $120 to use once ever other year.

Having a good relationship really comes in handy regarding warranty issues. More than once the above shop has gone to bat on my behalf regarding gear that's prematurely failed. Most recently, they took care of me after a SRAM shifter gave up the ghost after 3 uses. I have no confidence that a mail order store out of Ireland would do the same. Yes. I too buy some items mail for price and convenience, but there's some good people out there. You simply haven't had the fortune of finding them yet.

In Los Angeles proper, there is one company that pretty much dominates the retail scene. I do not like this chain. There are a few chosen people within this chain that are awesome...for the most part, its a small company that runs like a big one. Very beuarocratic (sp)

Anyway, maybe its me and my high expectations. Maybe no one can live up to my standards, maybe its the "only child" thing in me...maybe I need to see Swoop (or my wife) for therapy.

All I know is, I am very happy with buying over the internet. Whether it is on here, ebay or any number of sources, I seem to do just fine, get great prices and even better service....As for warranty issues, I pretty much sell my gear before it ever breaks...I have a pretty high turnover of bikes and bike parts.

Just sayin'

Steve

[Bud_E]

its not like penis theft.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL22903232.html

What's the markup on those babies ?

[djg]

Dunno, but I bought one (campag cable) for the rear d a few weeks back and they asked for five bucks, which seemed fine. If they'd said 10, I think I would have blinked.

[sailorboy]

this isn't directed to steve.. its just me saying stuff out loud:


you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?

no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?
why is it so hard?

I was pissed when I got my Pennsylvania absentee ballot today and Swoop wasn't on it.

I did a write-in.

Healthy mix of both online and brick and mortar shoppng for me. I even tipped the wrenches, or brought beer or whatever in the shops that I liked most along the way as well. The shops you want to spend money in (even if it's more than you can get it for elsewhere) quickly set themselves apart from those not worth the time of day IMO. Even while here in Japan I make a point to wait to buy some stuff from my old shop when I'm home briefly, if I can wait for it. Like other stuff I miss, I just want to know that my old LBS is still there even if I'm not.

[Pete Serotta]

A good relationship with a local shop is very valuable, and I find that it goes both ways - I treat 'my' shops respectfully and fairly, and I find they do the same. Sometimes I actually feel I get more than I really deserve... My personal relationships have been key, more so than I understood when they began - the good guys have proven to be just that. And any 'problems' I've had have been with folks I didn't personally know.

Over many years this is what I have found. If a shop does not build this relationship than you need to move on.

Lot of time is being spent on the cost of a cable. Just look at it as a STARBUCKS coffee. If a shop continues to charge dearly for small items you need to question the overall relationship you have with them.

If they provide good service, have a large parts inventory, and give you perferred treatment when you come in for that "emergency" than the price is worth it in my opinion.

If you have to order it from them, then they order it, then you wait, then they mark it up, YOU must quesion what the value add is.

YEP, I have used the same shop for 20 plus years. In my opinion they defines SERVICE!!! yes I will not mention the name again..... :D :D

[Jeff Weir]

Pete,

the shop who shall remain nameless, is without a doubt one of the best I've ever come across. Completely on top of the game. It's too bad for folks that don't live in northern new jersey.......

[e-RICHIE]

er i'm not feelin' thismo. the OP "...went down the street
to another shop I frequent and they happened to have a
loose Campy cable." not a delta replacement cable. or a
blister-packed no-name asian cable. or a jagwire cable.
it was a Campy cable. that there is this kind of energy
spent on whether the price was real or not is beyond me
atmo. if you're on a budget, and/or helping a pal with
hand-me-downs and hand-me overs, can ya' really worry
about a few dollars atmo?


i'll duck now.

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[manet]

purchasers of bottled water shall not whine about cable pricing

[swoop]

swoop, here is the difference. You are in the club. Those of us not in the club, get annoyed with the bad attitude and steep cover charge.


i am not in a club. i do have a reasonable expectation of what a for profit business has the right to do. and i don't think a ten dollar cable tells the whole story. i don't think anyone got raped here and i don't see the sin.
there is a suggested manufacturers retail price. i know some shops don't discount campy as policy. i think there's stuff getting read into it.

count how many i's in that for me like it means something.

i'm not saying to roll over and pay high prices. i am saying that one should expect a shop to charge retail for this stuff. with the dollar in the trash i dip into the grey for campy stuff.... but i don't expect the shop to cut me a deal on campy and i am not surprised when they don't. i certainly wouldn't give a shop the stink eye over it.

[Fixed]

rave?
cheers

[manet]

purchasers of bottled water shall not whine about cable pricing

[M.Sommers]

this isn't directed to steve.. its just me saying stuff out loud:


you mean a bike shop is an actual business? with like payroll and rent and stuff and service and stock on hand and a full right to make a profit without being told all the time that the customer is special and entitled?

no way.


i watch folks shell out cash for crap coffee at starbucks and leave a tip and yet this entitlement around bike shops is astounding.
i get 25% off at the local shop.. i raced for them, i bring them customers, i feel like i need to earn that discount and support them for making life easy and how they make things so available. i even tip the mechanics.
everything i buy there i can get grey market for wholesale.... and yet.. i do 90% of my business there and feel like i have to earn the discount.... because i know its a business.

i don't get the entitlement. what do you give them for your 25% off? why is a bike shop different than your grocery store or coffee shop.... it just gets silly.
a bike shop is a for profit business. and they are a resource. i've never seen one not go overboard to give a customer a break that didn't give them one too. i've had free bikes to ride for a season, discounts up tp 30%, free service, and been brought to interbike.
i love internet retailers too...
but what do you expect the shop to be? you want them to minimize profit, encourage helplessness in the customer, and provide top flight service and have everything in stock all the time?

its a retail for profit store and not a non profit social service agency....

you know what i did when i was seeking out the right saddle? i bought a grip of saddles until i found the ones that work. i sold the one's i used as virtually new for barely a loss or gave them away or traded. the once i didn't use i returned to the shop. why is it the shops problem that someone can't figure out what saddles work?
why is it so hard?

1). The OP has a valid point, a sincere question, "When is too much, too much? Where in your money clip do you draw the line between loyalty to the LBS and loyalty to common sense?"

2). As a brain/mindmeld Dr., certainly you get that not all cats obtain free cat nip, bonus schwag at the LBS. In your reply above, you state the words 'Me' or 'I' twenty-two times...it's not about you. Atticus Finch asked, can you walk or ride a mile in another cat's cleats? Do you wear Rapha? Can, but I won't and for me, it's the pointmo that matters.

3). For ten dollars, I'd hand the bike to the LBS dude and say, "That must include labor?" Swoop, not everyone may have an AMEX BLACK card and one man's $4.50 Chai Latte is another man's Campy Cable.

4). Shimano. If the OP used it, this would never have happened. :beer:

5). A certain, local frame builder didn't stock Campy cables. No biggie. He simply filed the ends of the teets (aka those 'necessary ferrules') on his GENERIC NO NAME Shimano-fit cables to fit my Campy shifters. He laughed out loud at the prices for cables! And he used to wrench for George Hincapie.

Note: I hand my wrench a Grande Misto Coffee from Starbucks every time his help is needed.. Steamed milk is a joke, but there again, Starbucks is a capitalistic model, free enterprise rocks and the Senor likes Misto. Senor Wrench also gets a ten spot tip for a quick fix or a twenty, if the repair is urgent etc. You offered, "I even tip the mechanic" and what does this say? That you're too good to tip the mechanic and you do it out of pity? "I even"?

I support my LBS, but I know robbery when I see it and I know that wealthy people are simply dumb, wealthy people if they toss their money away. Drive a BMW? I do and I'd be a dang fool to go to what is referred to as the 'stealership' for parts OR service. I wrench my own car and order my parts online. Saving money is never a bad or dumb idea, ever; a fool and his fin are soon parted. Homebrew lube? There's a cat on another bike forum who changed the face of the internet with his PhD in molecular science, he gave billions of cyclists the ancient Chinese secret; LBS lube sales have plummeted 89% since 2002. :D

Fact is, the OP raises a question that goes through MANY people's minds, from time to time. His question is far from absurd and contains logic. It's very easy to turn the nose upwards and it'd be cosmic/karmic if the next time you walk into your LBS and that new 10 speed chain is sold to you for $1,199.43 and ProLink lube is $97.34 per drop, yes, per drop.

[djg21]

Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?

You've answered your own question. How do you expect your LBS to compete with on-line retailers and discounters that essentially sell grey market on eBay? How can your LBS justify maintaining inventories of relatively low-demand items such as Jagwire cables when those items can be purchased at close to wholesale cost on Ebay?

Perhaps if you made all your purchases at the LBS, it wouldn't need to charge significantly higher prices to cover its overhead?

I don't fault you for looking for a deal! But brick and mortar bike shops (and many other specialty stores) are understandably going the way of the dinosaur.

[csm]

how much is an innertube worth on the rd when you flat 35 miles from your car and your cell phone doesn't work.
and you already used the tube you had in the bad.

[M.Sommers]

I move to close down the Classified Section! We should all apply for The Card and use it till it melts, pay full price, overpay, no more deals, no more Classifieds!

:beer:

Hint: The Classified is a huge success on this Forum (second most popular sub-forum). A place where the bikes are $5K...we ALL enjoy a good deal, know a good deal and know when a cable is a rip off.





.

[CaptStash]

Ok I have read this whole thread now and feel like I can see the whole forest through the campy cable trees.

It sounds to me like the lbs owner was either being lazy or trying to pull a fast one by over-pricing the cable. It also sounds like Rob doesn't much care for that particular lbs or the owner. Fine, go to a different shop. If enough people don't like that first shop or that owner, he goes out of business. Maybe he and rob just don't get along and everyone else loves the guy. That's fine too. It's how it works.

BUT: don't come crying if your favorite lbs goes out of business because they couldn't compete with internet prices and you only occasionally got stuff there.

There has to be a happy medium. You need to find a shop that clicks with you and your personality. If you want to help insure that they stay around, then give them as much business as you can afford. Be nice to them. Chat with them. Bring your friends in when they are buying a bike or parts. It's good karma.

Although I live in Seattle, my little neighborhood has a nifty little "village" shopping district that includes a clothing and hardware store. It's is wonderfully convenient to be able to walk down and get this or that at the hardware store, so we try to get what we can there, even though we know that a lot of things can be had at Home Depot. We're paying for the convenience of having a local store.


Lbs's are no different.

OK. I have ranted enough.

[M.Sommers]

how much is an innertube worth on the rd when you flat 35 miles from your car and your cell phone doesn't work.
and you already used the tube you had in the bad.

Swoop doesn't have that problem. In Hotel California, you just sit there, wait for a super hot super model wannabe with a 97 IQ to drive along then you hit on her and score.

NO MORE Classified!!!

:beer:

[csm]

as a member in good standing in "the club" I guess I can't really feel the pain of a $10 cable.

[swoop]

It sounds to me like the lbs owner was either being lazy or trying to pull a fast one by over-pricing the cable.


i am lost here.. retail price is 9.99 for the cable. how is charging 9.99 for something that retails at 9.99 "pulling a a fast one".
and then how is charging 7 bucks for that 9.99 cable a "lazy retailer".

[CaptStash]

i am lost here.. retail price is 9.99 for the cable. how is charging 9.99 for something that retails at 9.99 "pulling a a fast one".
and then how is charging 7 bucks for that 9.99 cable a "lazy retailer".

I forgot about that. I stand corrected. Forgive me, it's a long thread with lots of branches. My point stands though that it's up to the OP to decide if he doesn't like the guy or the shop to move on and not support that shop. Keep it simple.

[e-RICHIE]

1). The OP has a valid point, a sincere question, "When is too much, too much? Where in your money clip do you draw the line between loyalty to the LBS and loyalty to common sense?"

the OP was already trying to kit out a used bicycle
for the $350 stated. what is too much? he's already
practically slumming (poor word choice, i know) yet
he goes to a retailer to buy a brand name gear cable?
atmo something is wrong with the equation.

still ducking.

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[Fixed]

Swoop doesn't have that problem. In Hotel California, you just sit there, wait for a super hot super model wannabe with a 97 IQ to drive along then you hit on her and score.

NO MORE Classified!!!

:beer:
bro and they pay him
cheers

[M.Sommers]

the OP was already trying to kit out a used bicycle
for the $350 stated. what is too much? he's already
practically slumming (poor word choice, i know) yet
he goes to a retailer to buy a brand name gear cable?
atmo something is wrong with the equation.

still ducking.

Yankee Stadium. Is that hot dog worth $6.50?
That crappy, warm beer worth $7.00?
He walked into his Yankee Stadium and scratched
his head, then asked the question. Apparently he rigged
together a bike, the gross-profit took a hit and the $11.00 box
of Cracker Jacks pissed him off. I slummed last night during a
birthday night out, got a full body massage in a Gentleman's
club I told her, "No lap dance needed, but how about
a massage?" She's in massage school and
tell you the truth, my hamstrings feel better today.
I left a nice tip too. I would buy valve caps from
stevep if they were $19.75 each, I want to own
a piece of stevep. I will bury the valve caps under
the SS position at Yankee Stadium. Bucky Dent 4eva.

:beer:

[Fat Robert]

1) some of you guys should work in a bike shop for a year and deal with the whiny chiseling dorks who want the best part for the cheapest price. as has been said, its a business, not a social service organization.

2) you want campy? pay campy dollars. some guy has to pay the bills so you can indulge your hobby. pay the fiddler....

[93legendti]

The shop has it there and then, not in 2-5 days, or whenever the interent company can deliver it. That's why I NEED the shop; that's why I don't get upset if something costs a few dollars more. The shop is 10 minutes away and there is NO substitute for the convenience.

I try to always buy something when I go in my shop - bottles, gloves, tires, tubes, food, socks, whatever. The shop is there when I need it and the wrenches will slip my bike in in an emergency. Heck, they built my Spectrum in less than 3 hours after I dropped it off.

It all depends upon what is important to you.

[Fat Robert]

The shop has it there and then, not in 2-5 days, or whenever the interent company can deliver it. That's why I NEED the shop; that's why I don't get upset if something costs a few dollars more. The shop is 10 minutes away and there is NO substitute for the convenience.

I try to always buy something when I go in my shop - bottles, gloves, tires, tubes, food, socks, whatever. The shop is there when I need it and the wrenches will slip my bike in in an emergency. Heck, they built my Spectrum in less than 3 hours after I dropped it off.

It all depends upon what is important to you.


holy crap

adam and i agree

sign of the apocofreakinlypse

[AgilisMerlin]

Do you like to visit a bike shop

buy the cable

not so hard

do you like cheap prices

buy internet prices

do you like both ?

[gasman]

holy crap

adam and i agree

sign of the apocofreakinlypse

I too am speechless.


I love my LBS-it's because of them I can try a lot of different bikes, try high end rides, get low end (not Wal-blah) bikes for my kids as they grow, stop by and pick up a tube, gel, tire or anything else and get a great price on everything-usually what I would pay over the net and often much less and even occasionally free. But-I have never asked for a discount-it just started when I began to develop a relationship with the shop. As a result, I buy about 95% of my bike related stuff from them. I also send a lot of business their way as the staff where I work ( a 400 bed hospital)knows I am whacked out enough to love riding and I give them all advice about what to look for be it bikes or gear.

I buy the wrenches beer, sodas and coffee. I bring them pizza and chocolate-as result they let me use the shop to wrench on my bike if I don't have the tools and they put me to the head of the class if I am short on time and need some work done ASAP. Heck they cured a Canadian buddies BB creak last summer gratis.

They are a business and I want them to stay in business-there is nothing like being able to fondle ,er, touch, er, handle the goods you want to buy and to take on ride on a potential purchase.

support you LBS-they ain't getting rich no matter what you think.

[Pete Serotta]

Hey how about the PA Primaries.....How is that for tossing a snake in the chicken coop :confused: :confused: :confused:

[sokyroadie]

Hey how about the PA Primaries.....How is that for tossing a snake in the chicken coop :confused: :confused: :confused:

Would that be construed as a POLITICAL thread? :D :no:

Inquiring minds want to know.

JB

[keno]

"That's not a knife. THAT'S a knife!" Ripping off requires more than one significant digit, as far as I am concerned.

My working assumption is that LBS owners are not virgins. They may suffer from a hope over experience disease, without which, BTW, the restaurant business would not exist with the variety it does. To me, the idea that I should frequent an LBS so it will be there when I need it does not ring true. Things change, for one, and it may not be able to provide what I need when that day of need comes, for two. Carpe diem.

In my area of the Garden State, the LBS is akin to a convenience store. If they've got it and I need it then, I buy it then.

My LBS is a potpourri of Paul Levine, Tom and Jeff at Spectrum, Danny Donnelly at critusa, Speedy the wrench, Too Tall the consultant, internet sellers, forum classified, eBay, and 7-11 LBSs. I have, what I expect many of you have, and that is a virtual LBS. That I will travel up to 75 minutes, each way, for some of their services speaks both to their value to me and my own free time.

Personally, I don't see the LBS topic as a morality play. Over a period of a few years a solution for my situation has evolved in which the LBS plays a minor role. I have nothing against the LBS choices in my area; they simply do not satisfy my needs. I see myself as the customer whose repair work would be delayed in an LBS because a guy like a swoop might have an urgent need that gets turned to, which, BTW, I have no problem with. Owner's business, owner's decisions. He knows who and what are most important to him and is fully entitled.

While you say that you are not in the club, swoop, from where I sit you are. Over the years I've created my own club and you are not in it. By this I mean that each of us has a personal solution that may have no vitality for anyone else. Hopefully, we each develop something that works for us. To me, that is the goal.

I find myself smiling reading about all of the tipping that has been mentioned. (For some of you it may be coming from a place of appreciation, for others it may just be a way of creating a sense of indebtedness in the tipee.) The words "Hi, my name is Duke and I'll be wrenching your bike today" come to mind.

keno

[Climb01742]

The shop has it there and then, not in 2-5 days, or whenever the interent company can deliver it. That's why I NEED the shop; that's why I don't get upset if something costs a few dollars more. The shop is 10 minutes away and there is NO substitute for the convenience.

I try to always buy something when I go in my shop - bottles, gloves, tires, tubes, food, socks, whatever. The shop is there when I need it and the wrenches will slip my bike in in an emergency. Heck, they built my Spectrum in less than 3 hours after I dropped it off.

It all depends upon what is important to you.

holy crap times two. ;)

i agree too. the $10 for the cable wasn't all for the cable. it was, in part, to make it possible for the shop to be there at all.

ask your LBS how much their healthcare premiums will go up next year. how much the dollar's drop has impacted prices. how much their rent or taxes have risen. how much the economy has hurt business.

small businesses are hurtin'. on monday a spoke broke on my rear wheel. mechanically i'm a dork-issimo. how much is it worth to me to have the jerk in business?

$10? damn straight.

[flux]

OK, I could only make it through half of this so this might have already been said. But here is my take.

LBS's stock cables for repair's and in turn offer them to customer's as a courtesy. Same goes for ferrules (50+ cents each!). Did I include every ferrule and cable in the repair ticket upon completion? You bet I did. I bet most of you have paid full price for cables, ends and ferrules more times than you think. These are parts (small none the less) and require ordering, shipping, receiving, stocking and a roof to protect them.

Charging full price for ferrules, cables and ends are what LBS's (the ones that last anyways) are all about. It's a hard hard business and there is no room for throwaway's (depends on shop in some cases). The way I saw it, if you don't sweat the details working at an LBS, you aren't doing your job.

LBS's are barely breaking even on these small parts and do you a favor by selling them to you.

disclaimer: when I switched shops and started building up C-50's and Dogma's I was allowed for a cable to slide under the table here and there, but in my first shop when a vast majority of our profit were repairs and $300-800 bikes we were scolded if we didn't pick out the small parts from the floor sweepings at the end of the day. true story.

Its a give and take. Two sides to the story and no one situation is the same as the last. Keeping the customer happy and coming back is priority but sometimes you have to stick to your guns.

[Mud]

For those who hate the shops buy on line. I don't need the BS when you walk in the door about what Jenson has it for. When you come in with your 30 year old classic and can't get the special shifter cable for it anywhere on line and I can get but it will cost you $25 and you complain, don't ride. I don't care.

When your mail order place sends you the latest and greatest fork and it breaks down, take it to them, I am not going to fight your battle for you or use my leverage as a shop.

You mention Brenden at CC whom I have known for years. I even worked there for a while. He is great and busts his butt. I once listened to a customer complain to him for 30 minutes about his new MTB tires that seemed to slip on wet roots after a rain. He did not hit the guy.

At the LBS where I work we try very hard to give great customer service. If you have never worked at a shop you have no appreciation for how hard it is. But I have been a Professor, and a CFO in other lives. I like doing this, especially at this point in my life, best of all.

[e-RICHIE]

I once listened to a customer complain to him for 30 minutes about his new MTB tires that seemed to slip on wet roots after a rain. He did not hit the guy.


too precious atmo!

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[Chris]

1) some of you guys should work in a bike shop for a year and deal with the whiny chiseling dorks who want the best part for the cheapest price. as has been said, its a business, not a social service organization.

2) you want campy? pay campy dollars. some guy has to pay the bills so you can indulge your hobby. pay the fiddler....

WORD!

I always wondered if those same people pulled up to the local drive-thru and asked "Yeah, but I am buying TWO hamburgers. What kind of deal can you make me on that?

[AgilisMerlin]

i am back in a another shop, after 10 years.......

juggling 4 diff. jobs (shop takes priority 35-40 hours a week - seasonal)

sales, mechanics, phone - my hands look like they have gone through a meat grinder

i am fortunate enough to be working with some very old friends........for the first time........... > like a tailored suit................ :D

[M.Sommers]

WORD!

I always wondered if those same people pulled up to the local drive-thru and asked "Yeah, but I am buying TWO hamburgers. What kind of deal can you make me on that?

I am a New Yorker. EVERYTHING is negotiable. :)

LOL and no offense meant towards ANYONE...but, I would love to hear/see you cats in action when you purchase a car! Next time you buy a car, go down there, give me a call and let me hear your avoidance of price etc. No haggling at the car dealership!!! And no more Classified Section Forum.

I just bought a new bike from the LBS. I made the deal. I am the consumer. I have the choice, the options, the power and control. Being a New Yorker, I just have a bit more than others. ;) With the economy as it is, fwiw, it is a buyer's market in many respects. You want my $3K? Show me and I'll show you the money. The $10.00 cable is no different than the $1000.00 flat screen you shopped around on, then told the high school dropout from Best Buy, "Listen dude, your price is $55.00 higher than Circuit City. Tell ya what, you want the sale? Throw in a surge protector or an HDMI cable or at least some pron."

Remember, anyone sitting on a high, white horse in this cable topic...next time you purchase a home, a car or even a plasma television set, you are NOT allowed to haggle/work the deal. No!

My dentist asks for the co-pay and I laugh. Physical Therapy asks for a co-pay and I laugh. Gordon Gekko tries to take the Peter Luger Sauce off my table and I bite his forearm. You want $10.00 for that cable? Maybe. Maybe not. Buy a certified BMW and you tell that dealership, "I don't care what Hans the mechanic says, I want 4 new Michelin tires, 1 new battery, an oil change and the paint needs to be polished/detailed. You ready to do this, let's roll. Lastly, what's the name of the hot chica at the front desk?"

cliffnotes: a very valid point is made here folks.

:beer:

http://www.investorwords.com/3224/negotiable.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gekko

[handsomerob]

I went in one of my favorite local shops the other day needing a single Campy compatible derailleur cable to finish a build for a bike I sold. They no longer stock the double sided JagWire cables that I usually could pick up and are relegated to stocking only Shimano compatible cables?!?!? :crap: Is it out of line to expect to be able to pick up a cable without ordering one?

So, I went down the street to another shop I frequent and they happened to have a loose Campy cable. I said great and got out my wallet... I met the owner at the cash register and watched him ring up $10+tax!!! :bike:

In amazement I said "Really, $10 each?" He then checked his book of costs and reduced it to $7, explaining that his mark up on cables is higher because of all the ones that are unaccounted for. Should a single cable be $10?

Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?

My original post asked 3 questions. I simply wondered if I was being unreasonable in my expectations. I like the owner of this shop, I have talked with him many times about everything from his touring Europe and sponsored junkets here and there. I have run into him riding around and he joined us for the remainder of our ride. There is no animosity between us whatsoever.

Second, I have bought beer and/or lunch for a couple different wrenches as a token of my appreciation for their work.

Third, I am the newly elected bike shop liaison for our local bike club. My position is meant to build the relationship between the club and the local shops. I would like to find a way to drive business to the shops in appreciation of their support for our charity rides. One idea I have involves promotion of a LBS product that is either a very good value or on sale to our membership through a weekly email flyer. I really want them to succeed and I want local cyclists to support them.

It is really a little surprising how many people just suggest to pay whatever the LBS says and be happy they are there to charge you whatever they ask. If some of you think I am a bad guy because I think $10/cable is out of line, so be it. Support and blind support are two different animals.

[brians647]

I have the choice, the options, the power and control. Being a New Yorker, I just have a bit more than others.

This is a great thread, but...

Wow. That has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant replies that I've read in a while. You've just spent 4 paragraphs illustrating the fact that you've missed all of the better points made in this thread.

You may find it fun to haggle as a "New Yorker", but there's a time to pick your battles. If you're comparing the incomes of the guys who own a car dealership, and the guys who own a bike shop - don't. If you're saying that you'd like to be on the other side of the counter when somebody like yourself walks in - I call bullsiht.

Swoop and others brought up a great point in the internet vs. LBS argument, and the commonality that I saw revolved around the "relationship." To some that's something to be honored and respected, to others it's a tool to ask for discounts.

I choose to honor the relationship. I don't need to pull a power trip and devalue their time. I like those guys. They work hard and are good friends. THAT'S WHY I CHOOSE TO PAY TOP DOLLAR THERE (if you can call it that).

- B.

[dannyg1]

Bike shop in NYC wants $99 for a Dura Ace chain and this reminds me of the $300 DA seatpost.

Other bike shop in NYC takes a Raleigh I bought that has a fork that seems aligned, but the wheel sits tilted in the dropouts. I can't figure out what's wrong so I give it to the pro's to work on. Together we put the cool Campy fork cups tools on the fork and verify that the dropouts are straight. They tell me that another guy who's not there needs to see it.

I come back a week later and the fork looks like it was hit by a truck. Mechanic tells me that it turns out that the fork was manufactured with one leg longer than the other and that they'ld replace the fork because they destroyed it whilst trying to figure out what was wrong with it.

Over the last 7 months they've given me twenty excuses why they hadn't found a proper replacement. I went on Ebay, bought a fork for it 4 months ago and have since sold the bike. I told the owner that I was unhappy and he told me that he didn't want to 'overpay' for a replacement for as I had. The fork I bought cost $44. He didnt offer to give me anything for the fork I'd bought and I'm thinking that he should have. I would've enjoyed telling him that I really don't want to hold him responsible for what began as a manufacturing defect and that I'd learned alot dealing with the problem.

I still though, feel that I'm being brushed off by them and I don't enjoy it. After all this, I think I will still patronize the shop because I do want them to be there, but I also wont feel any guilt the next time I buy a NOS DA chain on Ebay for $28 shipped....


Danny

[e-RICHIE]

My original post asked 3 questions. I simply wondered if I was being unreasonable in my expectations. I like the owner of this shop, I have talked with him many times about everything from his touring Europe and sponsored junkets here and there. I have run into him riding around and he joined us for the remainder of our ride. There is no animosity between us whatsoever.

Second, I have bought beer and/or lunch for a couple different wrenches as a token of my appreciation for their work.

Third, I am the newly elected bike shop liaison for our local bike club. My position is meant to build the relationship between the club and the local shops. I would like to find a way to drive business to the shops in appreciation of their support for our charity rides. One idea I have involves promotion of a LBS product that is either a very good value or on sale to our membership through a weekly email flyer. I really want them to succeed and I want local cyclists to support them.

It is really a little surprising how many people just suggest to pay whatever the LBS says and be happy they are there to charge you whatever they ask. If some of you think I am a bad guy because I think $10/cable is out of line, so be it. Support and blind support are two different animals.

we don't think that.
but what you just posted might have had extra value
if it was part of the original story atmo. no matter, i
still believe $10 is not unreasonable for a brand name
cable. it is only 1 cent more than brenden charges atmo!

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[M.Sommers]

Wow. That has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant replies that I've read in a while. You've just spent 4 paragraphs illustrating the fact that you've missed all of the better points made in this thread.

Hey, Swoop has some competition is all. He might climb better than me, but I'll see him at the finish.

:beer:

So question Brian, have you ever haggled in your life? Car, home, insurance rates, cell phone plan, plasma tv? Maybe the egg sandwich with bacon is off limits (bacon is priceless) but do you see/get my thrust that some in this thread are taking the extreme high road in the LBS debate, whereas I add a dose of reality. Through the arrogance (no ignorance though) there is a point made, same for sailing the Swoop John B.

There is still a huge internet debate as to whether or not Obi Wan used mind control on Han Solo/Chewbacca in the Cantina. Did the old man talk Han Solo into the deal, of use Jedi mind tricks to get passage on The Falcon?

My thrust was big picture, combined with a dose of reality (hint: ya'll have haggled at some point).

[M.Sommers]

no matter, i
still believe $10 is not unreasonable for a brand name
cable.

Which is why a local frame builder on Long Island stocks and uses no-name, brandless cables, tells me they are better or just as good as anything out there, uses a file to make them fit my Campy and laughs about the price of cables. And he's a wise man, a great guy.

:beer:

[flux]

I am a New Yorker. EVERYTHING is negotiable. :)

Buy a certified BMW and you tell that dealership, "I don't care what Hans the mechanic says, I want 4 new Michelin tires, 1 new battery, an oil change and the paint needs to be polished/detailed. You ready to do this, let's roll. Lastly, what's the name of the hot chica at the front desk?"



I bought a brand new BMW in 06 and didn't haggle the price at all. The salesperson was my good buddy to boot.

Yes everything is negotiable but in my humble opinion this doesn't mean you should always negotiate. Cars, cables... whatever.

Have a great day.

[Fixed]

Caveat emptor
imho
cheers

[brians647]

Hey, Swoop has some competition is all. He might climb better than me, but I'll see him at the finish.

:beer:

So question Brian, have you ever haggled in your life? Car, home, insurance rates, cell phone plan, plasma tv? Maybe the egg sandwich with bacon is off limits (bacon is priceless) but do you see/get my thrust that some in this thread are taking the extreme high road in the LBS debate, whereas I add a dose of reality. Through the arrogance (no ignorance though) there is a point made, same for sailing the Swoop John B.

There is still a huge internet debate as to whether or not Obi Wan used mind control on Han Solo/Chewbacca in the Cantina. Did the old man talk Han Solo into the deal, of use Jedi mind tricks to get passage on The Falcon?

My thrust was big picture, combined with a dose of reality (hint: ya'll have haggled at some point).

Okay, I see your point and appreciate where you're coming from, I just feel like there are certain times, places and people that I will apply that to (and thanks for the level-headed response, as mine probably wasn't).

Of the items that you mention haggling over, I've only done it on a car. On the one hand, the internet is a great information source and equalizer. On the other, value is value. While I'm not out to determine someone's profits every time, I know when there's room to haggle a bit. I need a car, I can't live without it, I can't service it - and the dealership makes money on me due to that.

However, I choose to ride. I choose to have a bike, and I know that 99% of LBS's aren't making a killing at this. I may not need my LBS, but I WANT them there. It's my hobby, my fun, and I like the guys. So maybe there's my bias, I have a good LBS that I enjoy stopping in and getting the "Hey Norm!" from Cheers treatment.

So, I'll pay retail for their stuff, and haggle on my next huge ticket item when the percentages actually add up to something.

I bought a [B]Yes everything is negotiable but in my humble opinion this doesn't mean you should always negotiate. Cars, cables... whatever.

Have a great day.

Why am I not able to keep it short and sweet like that? :D

[M.Sommers]

Caveat emptor
imho
cheers

When Fixed whips out the Latin, it's checkmate, debate over. :)

Bottom line, what kind of cables does George Hincapie use? If a TREK carbon fork or wheel breaks in the forest and there isn't anyone around, does it still make a noise?

:D

[M.Sommers]

Okay, I see your point and appreciate where you're coming from, I just feel like there are certain times, places and people that I will apply that to (and thanks for the level-headed response, as mine probably wasn't).

Of the items that you mention haggling over, I've only done it on a car. On the one hand, the internet is a great information source and equalizer. On the other, value is value. While I'm not out to determine someone's profits every time, I know when there's room to haggle a bit. I need a car, I can't live without it, I can't service it - and the dealership makes money on me due to that.

However, I choose to ride. I choose to have a bike, and I know that 99% of LBS's aren't making a killing at this. I may not need my LBS, but I WANT them there. It's my hobby, my fun, and I like the guys. So maybe there's my bias, I have a good LBS that I enjoy stopping in and getting the "Hey Norm!" from Cheers treatment.

So, I'll pay retail for their stuff, and haggle on my next huge ticket item when the percentages actually add up to something.

I feel you bro, I do. Cheers.

I <3 my bike.
I don't <3 George Hincapie.

And everyone has their own way, method to how they run their life, financially, spiritually etc. I've learned a lot from Fixed. I wanna ghost write his autobiography, I just need to know what he was doing from birth to age 12. I can take over from there. :)

:beer:

[oldguy00]

I bought a brand new BMW in 06 and didn't haggle the price at all. The salesperson was my good buddy to boot.

Yes everything is negotiable but in my humble opinion this doesn't mean you should always negotiate. Cars, cables... whatever.

Have a great day.

It's been posted here before about how little money you and other US based pros make. And you can afford a new 2006 BMW????
Holy sh*t, did I pick the wrong career or what...

[Mikej]

I bought a brand new BMW in 06 and didn't haggle the price at all. The salesperson was my good buddy to boot.

Yes everything is negotiable but in my humble opinion this doesn't mean you should always negotiate. Cars, cables... whatever.

Have a great day.
Dude, I will have to haggle my way into heaven - car dealers and LBS's are my main practice.

[Acotts]

I just thought I would amit that I spent $230 at the LBS last night after my club ride mainly becuase I havent done the laundry in a week.

[bostondrunk]

I just thought I would amit that I spent $230 at the LBS last night after my club ride mainly becuase I havent done the laundry in a week.

I bought a cliff bar last night (I was in a rush). $3.40...for one. Tasted disgusting....and overpriced..
Then I looked at the Vittoria tubular they had on the wall. Same one the PBK sells for about 45-50. Price was $125 + tax.
The Vittoria clinchers were more affordable at $89 + tax.
Dura Ace chains were a steal at $59 + tax.

I like to support the LBS, but I can't always afford to pay double for everything...

[J.Greene]

$3.50 for a gallon of Gas
$5.00 for a gallon of mile (I've got 3 boys)
$3 for a loaf of bread.
etc etc etc...

I watch what I spend, most of us do. I have made choices based on price and everyone has that right. My clients excercise that right with me sometimes. I believe we should be mindful of that guy running the bike shop, he is trying to live like the rest of us.

JG

[bostondrunk]

$3.50 for a gallon of Gas
$5.00 for a gallon of mile (I've got 3 boys)
$3 for a loaf of bread.
etc etc etc...

I watch what I spend, most of us do. I have made choices based on price and everyone has that right. My clients excercise that right with me sometimes. I believe we should be mindful of that guy running the bike shop, he is trying to live like the rest of us.

JG

If I could buy my gas from PBK for half the price of local, I would.. :)
I do consider that the guy in the LBS is trying to make a living, but it's not my responsibility to pay him double to allow him to do that.
I'd like to make a living selling coffee from a stand. But for some reason people don't want to pay me $5 for a cup of regular coffee.. Why?? Don't they realize I'm just trying to make a living??? (said tongue in cheek).
I've bought two high end frames from the LBS.....just can't afford to do it all the time..

[J.Greene]

I think we agree.

JG

If I could buy my gas from PBK for half the price of local, I would.. :)
I do consider that the guy in the LBS is trying to make a living, but it's not my responsibility to pay him double to allow him to do that.
I'd like to make a living selling coffee from a stand. But for some reason people don't want to pay me $5 for a cup of regular coffee.. Why?? Don't they realize I'm just trying to make a living??? (said tongue in cheek).
I've bought two high end frames from the LBS.....just can't afford to do it all the time..

[BumpyintheBurgh]

I paid $5.49 for a gallon of Milk the other day. $10 for a cable does not seem out of line to me. Most people I know make more money than a shop owner and work less too. I buy what I can from our local shops.

Give stevep a big wet tongue kiss the next time you see him. He has earned it.

JG
Milk prices are regulated by the federal Milk Regulatory Equity Act of 2005 signed by GWB which sets a minimum price for milk. Even if a farmer wanted to charge less than the minimum, he would be in violation and open to prosecution.
What the LBS owners need to do is organize, hire lobbyists, get a congressman or senator on their side to push legislation to regulate the price of cycling goods, so that they are assured a minimum profit margin. Ain't that the way it's done in America, the consumer be damned.

[swoop]

Hey, Swoop has some competition is all. He might climb better than me, but I'll see him at the finish.



*this is a rant. its not directed at a freaking person... its inspired and its just coffee talk. no fish were hurt in the forming of this rant.
i think you just sound like a giant d-bag here (sounding like one is something i know well. i'm sure no one here is one). this isn't a competition and people that confuse purchasing products at bike shops with car buying have it all wrong.
you've got very knowledgeable folks here (folks that make bikes for a living, folks that run large bike shops, folks that have owned and sold brick and mortars, folks that race professionally and own internet retailers, folks that work in bikeshops, and folks that have run teams and worked closely with bikeshops) all disagreeing with you.. and your only response it to make assumption about how things would play out if we rode together under the presumption that there is a finish line here and that you have special knowledge because you live in nyc?

(and you have no idea how i ride).

maybe the simple answer is that the op asked a question and the popular answer is that he isn't approaching it correctly and he doesn't like that answer. and maybe you're entire world view is somehow a little off for not looking at the way things are being responded to... the people i know from new york are smarter than this...
and just because i can tough out out over a climb doesn't mean i'm a climber ... so good luck on that. you'll need to ride with me to figure out who's faster and even then.. who cares, it doesn't mean anything. some folks ride faster than others. i'm not sure that has any deep meaning.

if you're competing with me here you're missing the point because i don't see a finish line or a prize. the dog humping the leg might think its sex.. but the leg isn't having the same experience.

here's the fundamental flaw. a bike shop is not a car dealership and the customer that approachs one as if.... is an idiot. the folks you're doing business with at bikeshops think you're that guy. use this to change your approach.

(take it from me, the local shop gives me bikes, sponsored me to get exotic bikes at their price, gives me stuff all the time including kit and bottles as needed, asks me to test new gear, gives my feedback to the dealers and manufacturers, carries things if i ask them to, will special order anything for me, and most of all, treats me like a long lost friend).

here's a funny story, one of the shop owners hooked me up with his friend the car dealer and i got an A3 at 2k below sticker and with employee financing and it took ten minutes..

what do you get out of the nyc car dealer approach? a couple of extra percent off of mark-up and a bunch of guys that dread seeing you?
what if the car dealership model is all wrong? (it is).

[staggerwing]

I bought a brand new BMW in 06 and didn't haggle the price at all. The salesperson was my good buddy to boot.

Yes everything is negotiable but in my humble opinion this doesn't mean you should always negotiate. Cars, cables... whatever.

Have a great day.

Ahh yes. Missing a couple of bits of info though...(1) did you pay full boat sticker price, or (2) if lower, did you know you were being offered a good deal.

This is a great thread, and a good conversation to have. Price does not equal value, and not enough understand this.

I buy little bits at a local hardware store that generally charges full retail. With a lot of luck and patience, I *might* be able to find them at the local Hopeless Depot, but it would invariably take me longer, and send my blood pressure through the roof. At the HW store, I'm generally in and out in 10 minutes, and although the individual items are more expensive, I generally spend less. The owner watches out for his customers by selling them only what they need.

I generally do most of my own bike work, and have bought most of my stuff online, but have slowly been developing a relationship with a local shop. A few weeks ago, I tried a new approach with them. I had a laundry list of a dozen or so items, and I had run off prices from Lickbike. I knew they wouldn't have any of these items in stock, but offered up that I was more than willing to purchase any/all of these items through the LBS if they could get anywhere close to the mail order price. I was a bit embarrassed to put it out there like that, but the owner wasn't offended at all. In the end, they told me pick up the 2 Park tools on the list online, and were able to supply me with the rest of the bits very reasonably. They didn't tack on shipping either, which would be reasonable, as they typically get a large, weekly delivery anyway. They appreciated I had a list with actual part numbers, because they only needed 5 minutes to run the quote. It was a win for both of us. I've also smiled, and paid full retail on bits that they have in stock, and needed "right now."

[Pete Serotta]

Ok, it is getting personal...

In the big picture it is a personal choice on how you spend and with whom on what.

PLEASE LETS NOT START ATTACKING EACH OTHER!!!

It is a friggin cable. Additionally if you look on classified e-richie has a sale running.... He will not run out, for I took the cables off SPOKES bike and sent them as extra inventory :)

[Lifelover]

i think you just sound like a giant d-bag here. this isn't a competition and people that confuse purchasing products at bike shops with car buying have it all wrong.
you've got very knowledgeable folks here (folks that make bikes for a living, folks that run large bike shops, folks that have owned and sold brick and mortars, folks that race professionally and own internet retailers, folks that work in bikeshops, and folks that have run teams and worked closely with bikeshops) all disagreeing with you.. and your only response it to make assumption about how things would play out if we rode together under the presumption that there is a finish line here and that you have special knowledge because you live in nyc?

(and you have no idea how i ride).

maybe the simple answer is that the op asked a question and the popular answer is that he isn't approaching it correctly and he doesn't like that answer. and maybe you're entire world view is somehow a little off for not looking at the way things are being responded to... the people i know from new york are smarter than this...
and just because i can tough out out over a climb doesn't mean i'm a climber ... so good luck on that. you'll need to ride with me to figure out who's faster and even then.. who cares, it doesn't mean anything. some folks ride faster than others. i'm not sure that has any deep meaning.

if you're competing with me here you're missing the point because i don't see a finish line or a prize. the dog humping the leg might think its sex.. but the leg isn't having the same experience.

here's the fundamental flaw. a bike shop is not a car dealership and the customer that approachs one as if.... is an idiot. the folks you're doing business with at bikeshops think you're that guy. use this to vhange your approach.

(take it from me, the local shop gives me bikes, sponsored me to get sevens at their price, gives me stuff all the time including kit and bottles as needed, asks me to test new gear, gives my feedback to the dealers and manufacturers, carries things if i ask them to, will special order anything for me, and most of all, treats me like a long lost friend).

here's a funny story, one of the shop owners hooked me up with his friend the car dealer and i got an A3 at 2k below sticker and with employee financing and it took ten minutes..

what do you get out of the nyc car dealer approach? a couple of extra percent off of mark-up and a bunch of guys that dread seeing you?

lighten up cowgirl.

[J.Greene]

Milk prices are regulated by the federal Milk Regulatory Equity Act of 2005 signed by GWB which sets a minimum price for milk. Even if a farmer wanted to charge less than the minimum, he would be in violation and open to prosecution.

My point is not what a merchant can charge. It's that he or she has to buy milk too.

JG

[dirtdigger88]

geeze- all this over a $10 cable?????

Jason

[Lifelover]

My original post asked 3 questions. I simply wondered if I was being unreasonable in my expectations. I like the owner of this shop, I have talked with him many times about everything from his touring Europe and sponsored junkets here and there. I have run into him riding around and he joined us for the remainder of our ride. There is no animosity between us whatsoever.

Second, I have bought beer and/or lunch for a couple different wrenches as a token of my appreciation for their work.

Third, I am the newly elected bike shop liaison for our local bike club. My position is meant to build the relationship between the club and the local shops. I would like to find a way to drive business to the shops in appreciation of their support for our charity rides. One idea I have involves promotion of a LBS product that is either a very good value or on sale to our membership through a weekly email flyer. I really want them to succeed and I want local cyclists to support them.

It is really a little surprising how many people just suggest to pay whatever the LBS says and be happy they are there to charge you whatever they ask. If some of you think I am a bad guy because I think $10/cable is out of line, so be it. Support and blind support are two different animals.

Don't sweat it. Just remember to never disagree with the Cabal again!

[swoop]

guys, don't get in a huff....
we're grown ups chatting about bikes (its silly). there's no white knuckles here... its all good times. smart assyness is a guy art.

that folks tend to agree means either there's a cabal or its this thing called common sensibility. you get to chose.. i can't vote right now because my cabal tattoo needs to get re-inked.

[swoop]

Just following other's lead (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=530543&postcount=11).


i am a cowgirl. i like that phrase. it makes me smile. its an endearment.

don't treat bikeshops like car dealers. treat them like hard working, under valued, business owners with high overhead. develop relationships with them. enjoy their insight and try and do something for them that makes you as valuable to them as they are to you. somewhere along the way, you'll find that prices change in your favor.

[saab2000]

My problem with most LBSs is that they are either unknowledgeable, patronising, grotesquely overpriced or all of the above.

Last night I went to one in Arlington to inquire about some kind of drink mix. None in stock. That by itself is hard to believe, but so be it. I asked if they were getting any. Vague answer by the cash register kid. Finally I asked directly if I could order some as I ride past the place all the time and was not in a huge hurry.

His answer: "The boss would rather order bikes and keep the floor stocked than sell accessories. No."

Once again, I try to give them my money and they refuse to take it.

During my short stay in Virginia Beach, I bought a Thule rack from the LBS that supports the local early morning World Championship ride. Made me feel guilty that it didn't initially work on my car. Hmm.... I pay you $500 and you make me feel guilty for giving you that money? I blew it off and later bought a couple of computers. Same guilt trip that I was wasting their time by coming into their store.

There are great LBSs. One of them, The Bike Rack in Washington DC, associated with Too Tall and Flydhest (among others probably) worked on my Record hubs last week same day and did great service. With a smile. I happily dropped my $$$ at that place.

But a good LBS is hard to find. The other ones don't deserve my business, yet act as if I should feel guilty about wasting their time by trying to do just that.

[sspielman]

The whole LBS discussion is always interesting. There is no shop reasonably closeby that has anything to offer me. On the other hand, I have a long standing relationship with a GREAT shop 120 miles away.
The idea that I can't understand in this whole discussion-whenever it comes up- is the sense of ENTITLEMENT. Products and services are offered for a price and the customer either agrees to purchase or not. The customer is not entitled to any special deals or discounts....and the customer has no obligation to purchase from the shop.....It is a business, not a religion!

[dave thompson]

The whole LBS discussion is always interesting. There is no shop reasonably closeby that has anything to offer me. On the other hand, I have a long standing relationship with a GREAT shop 120 miles away.
The idea that I can't understand in this whole discussion-whenever it comes up- is the sense of ENTITLEMENT. Products and services are offered for a price and the customer either agrees to purchase or not. The customer is not entitled to any special deals or discounts....and the customer has no obligation to purchase from the shop.....It is a business, not a religion!
I dunno. With some folks, buying bicycle stuff is a religion!

[gdw]

All one has to do is post a question about the pricing or business practices of a LBS and the discussion heats up quickly. :banana:

[Bill Bove]

.....It is a business, not a religion!

Hmmm, I think I could get into that. I am the god of bike, bow down in front of me and lead me out. I could go from working seven days a week to only Sunday. Anybody know how to get in touch with Jim Jones or David Koresh?

[e-RICHIE]

Hmmm, I think I could get into that. I am the god of bike, bow down in front of me and lead me out. I could gofrom working every day but Sunday toonly working on Sunday. Anybody know how to get in touch with Jim Jones or David Koresh?
what do you need to know atmo?

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[gdw]

Warren Jeffs has a lot of extra time on his hands and might be willing to offer some free advice. He certainly seems to have mastered the cult with benefits scam.

[sspielman]

Hmmm, I think I could get into that. I am the god of bike, bow down in front of me and lead me out. I could go from working seven days a week to only Sunday. Anybody know how to get in touch with Jim Jones or David Koresh?

www.rivendellbicycles.com

[Bill Bove]

Warren Jeffs kinda creeps me out. Not like Jones or Koresh were any better but that Jeffs guy and all those women down in Texas, there's something not right going on.

[gdw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-jzblCbsuA

[flux]

Ahh yes. Missing a couple of bits of info though...(1) did you pay full boat sticker price, or (2) if lower, did you know you were being offered a good deal.

This is a great thread, and a good conversation to have. Price does not equal value, and not enough understand this.

I buy little bits at a local hardware store that generally charges full retail. With a lot of luck and patience, I *might* be able to find them at the local Hopeless Depot, but it would invariably take me longer, and send my blood pressure through the roof. At the HW store, I'm generally in and out in 10 minutes, and although the individual items are more expensive, I generally spend less. The owner watches out for his customers by selling them only what they need.

I generally do most of my own bike work, and have bought most of my stuff online, but have slowly been developing a relationship with a local shop. A few weeks ago, I tried a new approach with them. I had a laundry list of a dozen or so items, and I had run off prices from Lickbike. I knew they wouldn't have any of these items in stock, but offered up that I was more than willing to purchase any/all of these items through the LBS if they could get anywhere close to the mail order price. I was a bit embarrassed to put it out there like that, but the owner wasn't offended at all. In the end, they told me pick up the 2 Park tools on the list online, and were able to supply me with the rest of the bits very reasonably. They didn't tack on shipping either, which would be reasonable, as they typically get a large, weekly delivery anyway. They appreciated I had a list with actual part numbers, because they only needed 5 minutes to run the quote. It was a win for both of us. I've also smiled, and paid full retail on bits that they have in stock, and needed "right now."

What I mean is this.

The price is the price and the way I see it the only reason to "hagle" on price is if you are purchasing the object as an investment. In this case what you do pay is important as you are looking for the optimal return on your initial purchase. Like say... a house. A house is an investment.

Bikes, cars, milk... these are not investments so just pay the guy and enjoy what you bought.

[jim d]

"Bikes, cars, milk... these are not investments so just pay the guy and enjoy what you bought."

Agreed.

:beer:

Jim

[RudAwkning]

What I mean is this.

The price is the price and the way I see it the only reason to "hagle" on price is if you are purchasing the object as an investment. In this case what you do pay is important as you are looking for the optimal return on your initial purchase. Like say... a house. A house is an investment.

Bikes, cars, milk... these are not investments so just pay the guy and enjoy what you bought.

I totoally agree....except for the fact that bikes and cars are usually flipped (unless ridden into the ground). As utilitarian as they may be, there is always some value to them when you're done with them. The milk? drink it, it's gone.

That's where some folks might feel the entitlement to haggle, as they see their bikes as investments. Anything that can be tagged with an ROI is seen as an investment. Laptops, TVs, Stereos, etc. Cables for your bike, batteries for your remote, and software for you laptop on the other hand, could be seen as that carton of milk.

It's sad but true. And it's what leads some people to treat their LBS like a "car dealership".

Working at a bikeshop, I see firsthand the different mentalities that walk through that front door. And I'm more prone to actually give discounts to the guys who don't ask for them, than the "blood from a stone" guys who walk in for the first time quoting internet prices. My question to them is always, "Well, why don't you buy it online?". Their response, "Well, if there's something wrong with it, it's almost always impossible to return it, and they make you pay for return shipping." I guess it's easier to come waving your receipt at us in person.

[CaptStash]

I totoally agree....except for the fact that bikes and cars are usually flipped (unless ridden into the ground). As utilitarian as they may be, there is always some value to them when you're done with them. The milk? drink it, it's gone.

That's where some folks might feel the entitlement to haggle, as they see their bikes as investments. Anything that can be tagged with an ROI is seen as an investment. Laptops, TVs, Stereos, etc. Cables for your bike, batteries for your remote, and software for you laptop on the other hand, could be seen as that carton of milk.

It's sad but true. And it's what leads some people to treat their LBS like a "car dealership".

Working at a bikeshop, I see firsthand the different mentalities that walk through that front door. And I'm more prone to actually give discounts to the guys who don't ask for them, than the "blood from a stone" guys who walk in for the first time quoting internet prices. My question to them is always, "Well, why don't you buy it online?". Their response, "Well, if there's something wrong with it, it's almost always impossible to return it, and they make you pay for return shipping." I guess it's easier to come waving your receipt at us in person.


What about the in between guy? The guy who comes in and says "I'd really like to buy from you guys, but it's hard to justify when I can get the same bike for $xxx less on the internet. Can you help me out here so I can give you my business?" Seems to me that that is a reasonable request.

Just curious.

CaptStash....

[e-RICHIE]

What about the in between guy? The guy who comes in and says "I'd really like to buy from you guys, but it's hard to justify when I can get the same bike for $xxx less on the internet. Can you help me out here so I can give you my business?" Seems to me that that is a reasonable request.

Just curious.

CaptStash....
offer him some used milk atmo.

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[swoop]

What about the in between guy? The guy who comes in and says "I'd really like to buy from you guys, but it's hard to justify when I can get the same bike for $xxx less on the internet. Can you help me out here so I can give you my business?" Seems to me that that is a reasonable request.

Just curious.

CaptStash....


sure. i think that's a great conversation.. but vastly different than entitlement and the car dealership approach. lets look at the interweb retailer and add in shipping and assembly and the cost of replacing parts that are spec'd that don't work fit wise, and lets look at the level of fit and follow up... and warranty (don't buy carbon without it) and factor that in.

the customer has a responsibility to spend as little money as possible and to get as much for that dollar as they can! i think taking a non attitude is the best way to get the best deal at a brick and mortar.

but buying an individual (especially campy) part is different than a bike and we're still talking about a transaction where a guy got 30% off suggested retail and still felt ripped off. i think that's sad for all parties.

asking for a price break is a lovely thing.... but demanding one or not understanding that they aren't always possible is a mess.

[ecl2k]

At the end of the day, the LBS wants to charge the highest price, and the customer wants to pay the lowest price. It is a tug of war, but there is no reason the players have to be unsportsmanlike. Usually this means the LBS charges a fair price and the customer pays a fair price, the LBS got a little less than they wanted and the customer paid a little more, but it was a mutually beneficial compromise. I think it's stupid to deny the existence of this dynamic with comments like "just pay the man" and you're not entitled to anything. Even when the LBS gives you a break on a part, it is more along the line of a loss-leader, expecting that you will return at a later day for a more profitable purchase. I am not competing with other customers for the LBS's inner cable, the online stores, walmart, and LBS's are competing to sell me an inner cable. The original poster held the cards (including knowledge about a fair price, and other places to buy the cable from), and if LBS's find the relationship unpleasant they should get out of the retail and customer service business I think. LBS's arent a charity and when I buy stuff it isn't a donation.

[RudAwkning]

What about the in between guy? The guy who comes in and says "I'd really like to buy from you guys, but it's hard to justify when I can get the same bike for $xxx less on the internet. Can you help me out here so I can give you my business?" Seems to me that that is a reasonable request.

Just curious.

CaptStash....

I was referring more to the guy haggling over the $3 difference in price of a tire.

Of course we'll work around a rider's budget. We happen to be in a unique position, offereing only custom steel bikes. We don't have to contend with the exact pricematching of "boxed" bikes from the big 3. We have do deal with the apples to oranges thing instead.

But I have to ask, will the "interweb" store fit you, ride with you, and make any of the proper adjustments (ie. this saddle doesn't fit, these levers are too high, these bars are too low, maybe I DO need that triple/compact afterall, etc.)? Barring any mechanical failures, the online retailer will more than likely wash their hands of you once the sale is made.

As an LBS, we offer services that bicycle warehouses can't. And that's where the whole "relationship" comes into play. We don't usher you out the door after the sale, and then have to look up your customer number and purchase history to identify you when you come back to the shop.

And for the record, we fit and build for free, so long as you're buying your bike from us.

[Chris]

My dentist asks for the co-pay and I laugh. Physical Therapy asks for a co-pay and I laugh.



When people do that to me, I just have my billing department send them to collections. They end up paying, or it affects their credit. Then when they go to buy that BMW with the free tires, their interest rate is quite a bit higher.

[e-RICHIE]

when i had physical therapy after a broken leg, each session
ended with an ice pack. oh you don't wanna know what the
sessions cost atmo, believe me. i had insurance and they knew
it. but i'll tell ya, the icepack was charged at 32 dollars an hour.
did i know? no. was there an a la carte menu so i could better
spend the insurance money? no. was the icepack the daily
suggestion of the tending therapist? yes. effed, huh.

only months after the accident claims were settled did i get an
itemized bill showing me what i paid for (i had a 3 thou deductible).
hundreds and hundreds for ice packs on an ankle.

in my next life i wanna be in the icemaker's cabal atmo.
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[keno]

What I mean is this.

The price is the price and the way I see it the only reason to "hagle" on price is if you are purchasing the object as an investment. In this case what you do pay is important as you are looking for the optimal return on your initial purchase. Like say... a house. A house is an investment.

Bikes, cars, milk... these are not investments so just pay the guy and enjoy what you bought.

Behavioral economists call this compartmentilization, an illogical way to look at your money. $5 is $5 no matter what you buy with it. If I pay $5 less for a bike, I can invest $5 more in BRK-B. Most people would feel it important to save $5 on a $20 purchase but not on a $20,000 purchase. Just because the denominator is larger doesn't change the nature of $5.

In other words, a penny saved is a penny earned.

keno

[1happygirl]

AGGGHHHHHHHHH! I may never ride again.
All local bike shops suck in my opinion.*

Being in a big city, I have had nothing but problems and encountered one just a few minutes ago. Several years ago, bought a bike and spend serious $$$ only to have 'problems'. I then spent more $$$ and then after having problems riding, went to someone I trust to check it out. To quote "who the &*$#@ sold you this bike. it's the wrong size". (no wonder I had problems). Hung up riding for a while.


FAST FORWARD TO TODAY...

Test rode a cool bike in December (2007 Model). Due to other things, didn't buy it. So now going to get it, albeit now a 2008 model. When I call two local shops, one a chain (all right still local but 2-3 stores in the area) and another 30 miles away that, according to the bike website of the bike I want, carry this brand. Spent 15 minutes on the phone arguing with the guy that I need X size. "Oh, 1" size doesn't make difference etc. We can change out stem, etc." "Make it work". Explained have previously done that-doesnt work. "oh", he says lemme check with my mechanic. X bicycle doesnt come in that size for 2008. Funny I say, they're website says so and I spoke to their corporate office directly. They say they have it and can get it quickly to a shop. Quote the bicycle company, "tell the shop to call us." VERY FRUSTRATING TO GET SHOPS TO TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!!


This is how I envision it should go....

No, mam we don't have that right now, but give me your name/number I'll order it and call you. It'll be in next week.
I get called, pay bike shop, and start riding.

To paraphrase S. Silverstein, The girl was happy and the bicycle shop was happy.

I still can't get what I want from the LBS, even when not arguing over $$$.

In response to the original question, I would gladly eschew the LBS in favor of mail order because there is no value added by the LBS. I can get what I want (and the correct product-if not, I bear the lack of knowledge and cost) without hassles and at a far cheaper price in a shorter period of time.

If people who become scuba diving instructors, surfers, any profession you can name (LBS?) etc are upset at the lack of payment or working conditions for their given choice, they can always go into another profession.

*changed to I haven't found one that suits my needs yet.

[flux]

Behavioral economists call this compartmentilization, an illogical way to look at your money. $5 is $5 no matter what you buy with it. If I pay $5 less for a bike, I can invest $5 more in BRK-B. Most people would feel it important to save $5 on a $20 purchase but not on a $20,000 purchase. Just because the denominator is larger doesn't change the nature of $5.

In other words, a penny saved is a penny earned.

keno

It's about not being a tight wad chissler imho. I see people fret over 5bucks and it kills me. They waste their time.

Yes a penny saved is a penny earned but I think more importantly: TIME IS MONEY.

My world is about making, not necessarily saving (but I do invest).

To each his own. Way I see it life is short so have fun.

[J.Greene]

At the end of the day, the LBS wants to charge the highest price, and the customer wants to pay the lowest price. .

At the end of the day the shop owner's wife calls and says..."bring home a gallon of milk honey".

JG

[Grant McLean]

As a bikeshop employee since age 12,
now pushing 28 years in the bike industry,
the type of debate/venting that goes on in
these threads makes me certain that i've
wasted my professional life serving bike clients.

I could have easily gone into a profession that pays
10x as much money, with shorter hours, and could
support a much different lifestyle.

I humbly suggest that most bikeshop owners are
in it for the same reason as we are: passion or cycling.
Think about that next time you're about to bitch about
the $3 you paid over internet price.

Bikeshop owners, and I've met many, have various
skill sets, and levels of business expertise.
If you think bikeshops are getting rich, and charging
premium prices to finance their French Villas, then
there is a another fantasy bikeworld that you live in,
from the one i've experienced.

So if you come into a shop, and they don't have your
favorite flavor powarbar in stock, but a 'effin box
next time they have them. We make nothing on them,
and half of them are expired before we sell them,
so they never get sold...

How many 'professional' services do you get from people
who make 1/10th the money you do? Is your cleaning
lady the person who you expect to change your life
with a bike fit? Most cleaning staff make more than
bikeshop service staff.

Most of my higher end clientele operate personally on a
'you get what you pay for' system. Until the talk turns
to their purchases...

-g

[coylifut]

I just rolled by "my" lbs with fu-bar SRAM trigger shifter, they sent me home with a never used XTR one as a loaner while they "straighten this one out with SRAM." How one gets treated at the lbs, dry cleaners, farmers market...is merely a reflection of themselves. If you act like a tool, don't be surprised if you get treated like one.

[taylorj]

As a bikeshop employee since age 12,
now pushing 28 years in the bike industry,
the type of debate/venting that goes on in
these threads makes me certain that i've
wasted my professional life serving bike clients.

I could have easily gone into a profession that pays
10x as much money, with shorter hours, and could
support a much different lifestyle.

I humbly suggest that most bikeshop owners are
in it for the same reason as we are: passion or cycling.
Think about that next time you're about to bitch about
the $3 you paid over internet price.

Bikeshop owners, and I've met many, have various
skill sets, and levels of business expertise.
If you think bikeshops are getting rich, and charging
premium prices to finance their French Villas, then
there is a another fantasy bikeworld that you live in,
from the one i've experienced.

So if you come into a shop, and they don't have your
favorite flavor powarbar in stock, but a 'effin box
next time they have them. We make nothing on them,
and half of them are expired before we sell them,
so they never get sold...

How many 'professional' services do you get from people
who make 1/10th the money you do? Is your cleaning
lady the person who you expect to change your life
with a bike fit? Most cleaning staff make more than
bikeshop service staff.

Most of my higher end clientele operate personally on a
'you get what you pay for' system. Until the talk turns
to their purchases...

-g

Amen! I was waiting for someone to put it so eloquently. (and while not an owner I have spent the last 15 years in the industry after retiring from the high-paycheck/high tech lifestyle---not for the money but because it is what I love). I am amazed when folks congratulate themselves for actually paying full-retail for something. You haven't wasted your time. Your customers are lucky. Keep on keeping on!

[mosca]

Behavioral economists call this compartmentilization, an illogical way to look at your money. $5 is $5 no matter what you buy with it. If I pay $5 less for a bike, I can invest $5 more in BRK-B. Most people would feel it important to save $5 on a $20 purchase but not on a $20,000 purchase. Just because the denominator is larger doesn't change the nature of $5.

In other words, a penny saved is a penny earned.

kenoThis is a really interesting way to look at money, in fact it may take me a while to get my head around it. And I had no idea that there are "Behavioral Economists" out there. Anyway, thanks for posting. :)

[swoop]

grant's the shiz.

[Dino]

Did we just stumble on the moral of this thread? Or was it the moral of life?

Don't be a tool.

[vaxn8r]

I just rolled by "my" lbs with fu-bar SRAM trigger shifter, they sent me home with a never used XTR one as a loaner while they "straighten this one out with SRAM." How one gets treated at the lbs, dry cleaners, farmers market...is merely a reflection of themselves. If you act like a tool, don't be surprised if you get treated like one.
Exactly my experience at multiple different shops across the country. I can't tell you how many times I've been treated just as you describe.

There's some serious 'tude demonstrated in this thread. Some say it's the evil/greedy/idiot bike shop owner but it takes two to tango. Maybe that's the attraction of internet shopping, you don't have to be civil to anyone when you order with a keyboard.

But hey, when all the lbs go out of business the internet guys will too. Ultimately cycling dies on the vine without brick and mortar stores. I don't see any community investment, training rides, local race sponsorships, fittings etc from the internet stores. Where is the next generation going to get their start? Not from the www. Bikeshops aren't charity but net dealers are in it more for the greed than the lbs is. Think about it atmo.

[keno]

make it $50, $500, $5,000, call it "n". It's a principle of logical money management; get it? The day I started investing wisely was one on which I had lost some money in a deal, and had the insight that the lost money was very real and with it I could have bought something, be it a meal, a stock, or a bike. Moreover, I realized that it was not easily replaced. From that day on I was much more sober about money. Losses, whether in the form of overpayment or investment losses, are the most significant and overlooked aspect of money.

Behavioral economists also tell us that most people overestimate their abilities. You know anybody willing to fess up to being other than an above-average driver? More than for drivers, not many fess up to be poor handlers of their own money.

keno

[M.Sommers]

Perhaps the question from the OP should be, "Is my LBS being fair to me?"

Consumers have so many choices and options now. Starbucks' numbers are hurting and who do they blame? Their own people, their own customer service, so they have a nation-wide, web-ex seminar to re-train their people. Hmm, they'll get 'it' when they realize the law/rule in business/sales: oustanding product, outstanding service, outstanding price...and just as we know with our cycling wonts (light, strong, cheap, pick two) with Starbucks, when the price exceeds the other two elements, or vice versa, sales will diminish.

Is your LBS being fair to you? You report and you decide. :beer:

EDIT: Also, fwiw, your LBS does bust the shoes of his/her vendors! Your LBS is constantly trying to lower costs, extend their terms of payment to net 60 or net 90, looking to get lower prices if they buy 'XYZ' amount of steel tubes for their framesets etc etc etc. Your LBS is a business and the owner(s) haggle/work the deal on their end 24/7/365.

cliffnotes: I blame China for 90% of our problems and Isiah Thomas for the other 10%.

[Chris]

when i had physical therapy after a broken leg, each session
ended with an ice pack. oh you don't wanna know what the
sessions cost atmo, believe me. i had insurance and they knew
it. but i'll tell ya, the icepack was charged at 32 dollars an hour.
did i know? no. was there an a la carte menu so i could better
spend the insurance money? no. was the icepack the daily
suggestion of the tending therapist? yes. effed, huh.

only months after the accident claims were settled did i get an
itemized bill showing me what i paid for (i had a 3 thou deductible).
hundreds and hundreds for ice packs on an ankle.

in my next life i wanna be in the icemaker's cabal atmo.

I don't want to get into the headache of dealing with insurance companies here, but just trust me it is a major headache. In that world, $5 is not $5. As a result, the healthcare industry (because of deductions as part of the contract with the insurance company) must bill a certain percentage above Medicare allowable, so that they can receive the real value of the service. So, they bill X and receive Y. So, as far as the insurance company was concerned, they probably paid $4.00 for your icepack. Where the consumer gets the shaft is in situations like yours, where they have a big deductible and that comes out of their pocket, or they are not informed of the cost of the services ahead of time.

My point wasn't about a lack of informed consent. My point was about acting like a burro. I get a stack of notices every other week regarding patients who can't pay their part of the bill. 9 times out of 10, I write them off. I am in the business of helping people, not creating more problems for them. When I do send them to collections, is when they "laugh" or refuse to pay their part because they think that insurance has reimbursed me "enough" for my services...

[flux]

make it $50, $500, $5,000, call it "n". It's a principle of logical money management; get it? The day I started investing wisely was one on which I had lost some money in a deal, and had the insight that the lost money was very real and with it I could have bought something, be it a meal, a stock, or a bike. Moreover, I realized that it was not easily replaced. From that day on I was much more sober about money. Losses, whether in the form of overpayment or investment losses, are the most significant and overlooked aspect of money.

Behavioral economists also tell us that most people overestimate their abilities. You know anybody willing to fess up to being other than an above-average driver? More than for drivers, not many fess up to be poor handlers of their own money.

keno

I lost a ton (for me anyways) of hard earned money too once. At first I was pissed, then I was frivolous, then I decided to just get on with it and make more money.

Thank You for sharing though Keno. That's good stuff.

[Ahneida Ride]

Over many years this is what I have found. If a shop does not build this relationship than you need to move on.

Lot of time is being spent on the cost of a cable. Just look at it as a STARBUCKS coffee. If a shop continues to charge dearly for small items you need to question the overall relationship you have with them.

If they provide good service, have a large parts inventory, and give you preferred treatment when you come in for that "emergency" than the price is worth it in my opinion.

If you have to order it from them, then they order it, then you wait, then they mark it up, YOU must question what the value add is.

YEP, I have used the same shop for 20 plus years. In my opinion they defines SERVICE!!! yes I will not mention the name again..... :D :D

Same here Pete ..... I have a great shop in Vt and I am treated like I am
their only customer. Prices are most fair.

[Lifelover]

I went in one of my favorite local shops the other day needing a single Campy compatible derailleur cable to finish a build for a bike I sold. They no longer stock the double sided JagWire cables that I usually could pick up and are relegated to stocking only Shimano compatible cables?!?!? :crap: Is it out of line to expect to be able to pick up a cable without ordering one?

So, I went down the street to another shop I frequent and they happened to have a loose Campy cable. I said great and got out my wallet... I met the owner at the cash register and watched him ring up $10+tax!!! :bike:

In amazement I said "Really, $10 each?" He then checked his book of costs and reduced it to $7, explaining that his mark up on cables is higher because of all the ones that are unaccounted for. Should a single cable be $10?

Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?

I'll try something that has not been done in quite a while in this thread:

Address the OP.


No you are not being fare to the LBS. You concern seems to be based on percent mark up. When it come to "percents" all mark up are not the same.


There is a certain amount of over head involved with every single sale that can be expressed in a direct cost, regardless of the sale amount.

After you $7.00 purchase, it appears that the profit was around $3.50. 100% markup?

I could have walked in right behind you, picked up a $85 helmet, jersey, whatever. They would have spent the same amount of time (maybe less) with me. If they had paid $50 for my item they would have only 70% mark up, but made 10X as much on the sale.

Both sales have the same overhead.

Where you are being unfair to them is by only looking at mark up as a percent.

[catulle]

when i had physical therapy after a broken leg, each session
ended with an ice pack. oh you don't wanna know what the
sessions cost atmo, believe me. i had insurance and they knew
it. but i'll tell ya, the icepack was charged at 32 dollars an hour.
did i know? no. was there an a la carte menu so i could better
spend the insurance money? no. was the icepack the daily
suggestion of the tending therapist? yes. effed, huh.

only months after the accident claims were settled did i get an
itemized bill showing me what i paid for (i had a 3 thou deductible).
hundreds and hundreds for ice packs on an ankle.

in my next life i wanna be in the icemaker's cabal atmo.

Next time you come to chez moi and pay $15 for a therapy session, all included. Therapists have US diplomas and certifications, and they have my body functioning in pretty decent shape. The cost of room and board: an atmo pin.

[DarrenCT]

Next time you come to chez moi and pay $15 for a therapy session, all included. Therapists have US diplomas and certifications, and they have my body functioning in pretty decent shape. The cost of room and board: an atmo pin.

is this for everyone in the salonmo?

[Fat Robert]

I'll try something that has not been done in quite a while in this thread:

Address the OP.


No you are not being fare to the LBS. You concern seems to be based on percent mark up. When it come to "percents" all mark up are not the same.


There is a certain amount of over head involved with every single sale that can be expressed in a direct cost, regardless of the sale amount.

After you $7.00 purchase, it appears that the profit was around $3.50. 100% markup?

I could have walked in right behind you, picked up a $85 helmet, jersey, whatever. They would have spent the same amount of time (maybe less) with me. If they had paid $50 for my item they would have only 70% mark up, but made 10X as much on the sale.

Both sales have the same overhead.

Where you are being unfair to them is by only looking at mark up as a percent.

the fat one agrees with the fishy one

[catulle]

is this for everyone in the salonmo?


Huh...? salonmo...?? Wazzat...??? Er, this is for you too, though. Beer is on the house, and I hear pretty good reports about the local stuff. And its always very coldmo. See, an atmo pin can take you a long way*...






*I'm just trying to recover my place in the listmo...

[handsomerob]

I'll try something that has not been done in quite a while in this thread:

Address the OP.

No you are not being fare to the LBS. You concern seems to be based on percent mark up. When it come to "percents" all mark up are not the same.

There is a certain amount of over head involved with every single sale that can be expressed in a direct cost, regardless of the sale amount.

After you $7.00 purchase, it appears that the profit was around $3.50. 100% markup?

I could have walked in right behind you, picked up a $85 helmet, jersey, whatever. They would have spent the same amount of time (maybe less) with me. If they had paid $50 for my item they would have only 70% mark up, but made 10X as much on the sale.

Both sales have the same overhead.

Where you are being unfair to them is by only looking at mark up as a percent.

I walked out of the first shop wondering if I was being reasonable expecting they should stock Campy compatible cables.

At the second shop... The initial quote of $10 (which is a 200% mark up) seemed unreasonably high, and I questioned the price. I walked out wondering if questioning the price was fair to them. I wondered if everyone else is paying $10 for cables and I just didn't realize it given (as I said before) I never had paid more than $5 for a single cable.

As far as overhead goes. The time of transaction was around 60 seconds total and they didn't have to order it for me, so I wasn't contributing much to their labor overhead. Cables are usually bought in bulk and this shop only does parts orders once a week, so I imagine the shipping was near negligible for a single cable. As far as storage as it pertains to rent, cables take up VERY limited space. I just don't think 200% mark up is appropriate for a cable. For those that want to hammer me for thinking that way, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I sell auto and home insurance for a living... unfortunately no matter how much time I spend with a customer or how phenomenal my service is or how much I have to pay for rent or my telephone or internet or office supplies or E&O insurance.... etc.... without a competitive price for their coverage, the sale is usually lost. I have sold many policies to people for more than they were currently paying for a number of different reasons, but I can't recall a sale where my rates were 40% more than their current rate. And truth be told, I really wouldn't expect to make that sale.

[swoop]

bob, forget markup. this is a campy part. it isn't about shop mark up.. its about suggested retail price. most shops are pretty hamstrung to sell campy parts at suggested retail price.
many shops that offer discounts draw a circle around campy and let the customer know that campy is only available at suggested retail.

you were sold a campy part at 30% below retail.

forget mark up.

you can get it online for 7.95 at excel.... but the minimum shipping charge is 7.25.... so you looking at 15.20 for the same cable at a major discount internet retailer.

[AgilisMerlin]

we sell the campy pack/box - cable,housing,ends at the shop for 49.00$

this is mailorder pricing. we must be giving it away........ :D

[M.Sommers]

bob, forget markup. this is a campy part. it isn't about shop mark up.. its about suggested retail price. most shops are pretty hamstrung to sell campy parts at suggested retail price.
many shops that offer discounts draw a circle around campy and let the customer know that campy is only available at suggested retail.

you were sold a campy part at 30% below retail.

forget mark up.

you can get it online for 7.95 at excel.... but the minimum shipping charge is 7.25.... so you looking at 15.20 for the same cable at a major discount internet retailer.

True. But if Rob bought 3, 5 or 10 items from an internet retailer, the massive savings, coupled with a coupon for free shipping over $50.00 (etc) then he'd be sitting flush.

I know an LBS that wanted $15.00 for a cable guide:

https://www.bikebuster.com/details/350017.html?vat=0&currency=usd

Funny to see the delta here:

http://www.cycleco.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=172

http://www.wisecyclebuys.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=350

OR get some 'Lead and Dioxin Free' Asian-Campy Cables for $23.99!!! :) :

http://store.yokozunausa.com/caprhocakit.html

[vaxn8r]

I walked out of the first shop wondering if I was being reasonable expecting they should stock Campy compatible cables.

At the second shop... The initial quote of $10 (which is a 200% mark up) seemed unreasonably high, and I questioned the price. I walked out wondering if questioning the price was fair to them. I wondered if everyone else is paying $10 for cables and I just didn't realize it given (as I said before) I never had paid more than $5 for a single cable.

As far as overhead goes. The time of transaction was around 60 seconds total and they didn't have to order it for me, so I wasn't contributing much to their labor overhead. Cables are usually bought in bulk and this shop only does parts orders once a week, so I imagine the shipping was near negligible for a single cable. As far as storage as it pertains to rent, cables take up VERY limited space. I just don't think 200% mark up is appropriate for a cable. For those that want to hammer me for thinking that way, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I sell auto and home insurance for a living... unfortunately no matter how much time I spend with a customer or how phenomenal my service is or how much I have to pay for rent or my telephone or internet or office supplies or E&O insurance.... etc.... without a competitive price for their coverage, the sale is usually lost. I have sold many policies to people for more than they were currently paying for a number of different reasons, but I can't recall a sale where my rates were 40% more than their current rate. And truth be told, I really wouldn't expect to make that sale.
I don't get why you would go to 2 different stores for a $10 part. What's your time worth?

Why are you putting Campy cables on a $350 bike which isn't even yours?

[CMY]

I don't get why you would go to 2 different stores for a $10 part. What's your time worth?

Apparently nothing. It reminds me of driving halfway across L.A. with my Grandfather (in a monster of a Cadillac) to get the cheapest gas he could find. :crap:

[sailorboy]

when i had physical therapy after a broken leg, each session
ended with an ice pack. oh you don't wanna know what the
sessions cost atmo, believe me. i had insurance and they knew
it. but i'll tell ya, the icepack was charged at 32 dollars an hour.
did i know? no. was there an a la carte menu so i could better
spend the insurance money? no. was the icepack the daily
suggestion of the tending therapist? yes. effed, huh.

only months after the accident claims were settled did i get an
itemized bill showing me what i paid for (i had a 3 thou deductible).
hundreds and hundreds for ice packs on an ankle.

in my next life i wanna be in the icemaker's cabal atmo.

I recall a time when I was in grad school and working some hours at the clinic affiliated with the university, and long story short, was as shocked myself when I realized what rates we were billing a patient for when her stiff knee required more sessions than were alloted by her insurance. Mainly 'cause as a military PT for 13 of the 14 years since leaving school, I never really confronted this issue of what it really costs to render these services. I ended up doing several additional sessions, but only billing for a fraction of what I did.

Problem is there is more behind it, the crazy amounts for what are called modalities--ice, heat, electrical stim etc. are really only the means by which the clinic--if its a smaller place--can pay the rest of the bills. If it's a physician-owned PT practice (a whole ethical beast of many heads in its own right) then we start looking at the fact that the docs are most likely the ones setting those rates for stuff they don't even do.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't personally know any PTs who are making 6 figure incomes like they were in the 80's. The ones I knew at this clinic in grad school (and most of them had doctorate-level educations) had to share an office, didn't have a set lunch hour b/c they usually did their paperwork then and were not only required to take a shuttle to work from a remote parking lot, but were given the privelege of paying for parking there.

Sorry for the drift, I meant to adress M. Sommers comment on how he laughs when he is asked to co-pay for his PT...actually I don't think I want to address it.

more drift-- I'm looking for a framebuilder to apprentice for when my military PT career is over. Any takers?

[sailorboy]

[QUOTE=Grant McLean]As a bikeshop employee since age 12,
now pushing 28 years in the bike industry,
the type of debate/venting that goes on in
these threads makes me certain that i've
wasted my professional life serving bike clients.

Grant, I'm seriously hoping you are just venting and don't mean this. There have to be countless folks who value what you do for them.

I'm in a service industry where the latest organizational mantra-schtick is 'patient-centered care' which translates roughly to 'the customer is always right'

In that environment it's easy to focus on the 1 a-hole per day/week/month/quarter who left unhappy and complains/tries to wreck your career or whatever despite your efforts rather than on the other 99 folks who left happy or some other degree of satisfied.

hell, you dole out so much good stuff here all the time and don't have to so you must be in it for a good reason. Hopefully not just b/c its too late to do something else.

[Lifelover]

..... we will just have to agree to disagree....

So it shall be.


Does this mean Swoop et. al. will let me in the cabal now!? :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

I could clean the toilets or something.

[soulspinner]

Just give the LBS the dough on the small stuff and be happy its there. :beer:

[sspielman]

It's about not being a tight wad chissler imho.

I think we have gotten to the root of the problem on the customer side of this situation....

Those words should be etched in the stone tablet....

[e-RICHIE]

So it shall be.


Does this mean Swoop et. al. will let me in the cabal now!? :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

I could clean the toilets or something.
Lifelover is a genius. Follow his advice.

Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[Tom]

any medical practice has this whole problem with reimbursement rates unless they're dealing in silicone or HGH. That's why those that pay get whacked so hard - the people that stiff them for the copays or have no insurance and just can't pay drive it up for the rest of us.

In my opinion, it boils down to this: if you have the money, pay for the service and shut up.

Heck, that applies to the LBS situation, at least in my case. My bike's up at the shop because I simply don't have the skills to do the work it needs and I don't care to just go out and buy a new part. I'm damn glad there's a good shop around here that when it comes back I know it's going to be right. I heard one of the principals there say one day "If I have to return a bike late to return it perfect I will." Works for me.

[Too Tall]

I think we have gotten to the root of the problem on the customer side of this situation....

Those words should be etched in the stone tablet....
I like the semi-semitic spiritual Moses comes down from the mountain ethos schtick thaing Sspielman, NICE :) And to think it all started because

CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP

[stevep]

keno,
to compare this to an investment loss or overpayment is a stretch.
you just sound cheap.
maybe you arent but all this makes you sound cheap.
"invest wisely"?
"not easily replaced"
many value the relationship with a dealer/friend/fellow enthusiast as worth something more than some percentage of a sale and a small amount of money to boot./

i thk you're too sober about money.
not meant to be an insult.


make it $50, $500, $5,000, call it "n". It's a principle of logical money management; get it? The day I started investing wisely was one on which I had lost some money in a deal, and had the insight that the lost money was very real and with it I could have bought something, be it a meal, a stock, or a bike. Moreover, I realized that it was not easily replaced. From that day on I was much more sober about money. Losses, whether in the form of overpayment or investment losses, are the most significant and overlooked aspect of money.

Behavioral economists also tell us that most people overestimate their abilities. You know anybody willing to fess up to being other than an above-average driver? More than for drivers, not many fess up to be poor handlers of their own money.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

keno,
to compare this to an investment loss or overpayment is a stretch.

not meant to be an insult.
the pope has spokethmo.
Puccipedia 3.18 atmo -
Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[keno]

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). 'sides, I was simply stating a general principle from behavioral pyschology about how people look at their money, and a personal experience of great utility, and never once got into the substance of cables, LBSs, their owners or other such (BTW, had you told me a Campy cable was $20 I would have shrugged; I ask my wrench "how much" and I pay it). I certainly understand psychological payoffs and supporting friends. My thinking was more generic in nature than you incorrectly assumed.

For what it's worth, how cheap can I be with two Serottas, a Spectrum, a Guru, an A8 and an A6 and a Timex? My idea of a regular restaurant tip is 20% absent an expecially evocative smile or snarl. Moreover, when I start to worry about sounding cheap to the folks on this forum, or elsewhere, I might have to see a psychiatrist if you know what I mean.

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno

[flux]

.

[e-RICHIE]

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno
Keno is a genius. Follow his advice atmo.


Richard is a genius. Follow his advice.

[DarrenCT]

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). 'sides, I was simply stating a general principle from behavioral pyschology about how people look at their money, and a personal experience of great utility, and never once got into the substance of cables, LBSs, their owners or other such (BTW, had you told me a Campy cable was $20 I would have shrugged; I ask my wrench "how much" and I pay it). I certainly understand psychological payoffs and supporting friends. My thinking was more generic in nature than you incorrectly assumed.

For what it's worth, how cheap can I be with two Serottas, a Spectrum, a Guru, an A8 and an A6 and a Timex? My idea of a regular restaurant tip is 20% absent an expecially evocative smile or snarl. Moreover, when I start to worry about sounding cheap to the folks on this forum, or elsewhere, I might have to see a psychiatrist if you know what I mean.

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno


dr keno,

i spent big bux on good tasty beer and campy bike parts. am i investing my money wisely?

thnx in advance

[Pete Serotta]

:D :banana: :cool:

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). 'sides, I was simply stating a general principle from behavioral pyschology about how people look at their money, and a personal experience of great utility, and never once got into the substance of cables, LBSs, their owners or other such (BTW, had you told me a Campy cable was $20 I would have shrugged; I ask my wrench "how much" and I pay it). I certainly understand psychological payoffs and supporting friends. My thinking was more generic in nature than you incorrectly assumed.

For what it's worth, how cheap can I be with two Serottas, a Spectrum, a Guru, an A8 and an A6 and a Timex? My idea of a regular restaurant tip is 20% absent an expecially evocative smile or snarl. Moreover, when I start to worry about sounding cheap to the folks on this forum, or elsewhere, I might have to see a psychiatrist if you know what I mean.

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno

[catulle]

All this for $10...? That's $0.77 a page, so keep it up for the cost of each page to keep getting lower.

[M.Sommers]

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). 'sides, I was simply stating a general principle from behavioral pyschology about how people look at their money, and a personal experience of great utility, and never once got into the substance of cables, LBSs, their owners or other such (BTW, had you told me a Campy cable was $20 I would have shrugged; I ask my wrench "how much" and I pay it). I certainly understand psychological payoffs and supporting friends. My thinking was more generic in nature than you incorrectly assumed.

For what it's worth, how cheap can I be with two Serottas, a Spectrum, a Guru, an A8 and an A6 and a Timex? My idea of a regular restaurant tip is 20% absent an expecially evocative smile or snarl. Moreover, when I start to worry about sounding cheap to the folks on this forum, or elsewhere, I might have to see a psychiatrist if you know what I mean.

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno

Post pics of the A8.

[soulspinner]

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). 'sides, I was simply stating a general principle from behavioral pyschology about how people look at their money, and a personal experience of great utility, and never once got into the substance of cables, LBSs, their owners or other such (BTW, had you told me a Campy cable was $20 I would have shrugged; I ask my wrench "how much" and I pay it). I certainly understand psychological payoffs and supporting friends. My thinking was more generic in nature than you incorrectly assumed.

For what it's worth, how cheap can I be with two Serottas, a Spectrum, a Guru, an A8 and an A6 and a Timex? My idea of a regular restaurant tip is 20% absent an expecially evocative smile or snarl. Moreover, when I start to worry about sounding cheap to the folks on this forum, or elsewhere, I might have to see a psychiatrist if you know what I mean.

RS, you bet on the wrong pony.

keno


Definitely not a sycophant. :beer:

[catulle]

I don't know about an A-8, but I've never seen a Brinks truck follow a hearse. It all stays behind when the bold lady taps you on the shoulder, iirc...

[handsomerob]

I don't get why you would go to 2 different stores for a $10 part. What's your time worth?

I went in one of my favorite local shops the other day needing a single Campy compatible derailleur cable to finish a build for a bike I sold. They no longer stock the double sided JagWire cables that I usually could pick up and are relegated to stocking only Shimano compatible cables?!?!? :crap: Is it out of line to expect to be able to pick up a cable without ordering one?

They didn't have ANY Campy compatible cables, Campagnolo, Jagwire, or otherwise.

Why are you putting Campy cables on a $350 bike which isn't even yours?

I needed a Campy compatible cable for the rear derailleur. It didn't have to be an actual Campagnolo cable, but that was what he found in stock. Just because the bike was not for me doesn't mean it is ok to use an ill fitting Shimano cable.

[CMY]

I don't know about an A-8, but I've never seen a Brinks truck follow a hearse. It all stays behind when the bold lady taps you on the shoulder, iirc...
Depends. If you're Sandra West you do, in fact, get buried in your 1964 Ferrari 330 America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_West

[handsomerob]

bob, forget markup. this is a campy part. it isn't about shop mark up.. its about suggested retail price. most shops are pretty hamstrung to sell campy parts at suggested retail price.
many shops that offer discounts draw a circle around campy and let the customer know that campy is only available at suggested retail.

you were sold a campy part at 30% below retail.

forget mark up.

you can get it online for 7.95 at excel.... but the minimum shipping charge is 7.25.... so you looking at 15.20 for the same cable at a major discount internet retailer.

Well Swoop, this is a MUCH more objective argument than "just pay whatever they say it costs". I imagine that if this cable had been packaged with a price tag showing a retail price of $9.99, I would not have questioned it. But considering the cable was handed to me in a coil with no packaging and the price quoted seemed to be guesstimated at best, I simply wondered if that was correct.

[swoop]

Well Swoop, this is a MUCH more objective argument than "just pay whatever they say it costs". I imagine that if this cable had been packaged with a price tag showing a retail price of $9.99, I would not have questioned it. But considering the cable was handed to me in a coil with no packaging and the price quoted seemed to be guesstimated at best, I simply wondered if that was correct.


have you come to the conclusion yet that you weren't being fair to you lbs? i'm not sure if it was a loaded question.... but i think the answer is kind of yes.
leaving the shop feeling victimized over a 30% discount seems kind of deepy unfair.
so does presuming that they are charging you more than retail on a smal part.
and so is having a customer justify mark up for them on something specifically from campy.

i think your shop is being remarkably good to you.

now, lets talk about the dollar against the euro and the cost of newer campy stuff your shop owner has to order from his distributor... because prices are crazy.. but your shop owner is a victim to that rather than benefitting from it.

you came here and posted a question and i think have received a fairly resounding answer. i just don't get the impression you were actually open to an answer that didn't confirm your experience at the shop. no, you're were not being fair to them if you left feeling victimized.

prices are insane now across the board. its tough time to be in retail. but its not like this is medicine you need and you don't have insurance and they want to charge you 11 bucks a pill. be an informed customer. check online for suggested retail. call a couple of shops to see if the have it in stock and if your club discount is applicable. i think it will be less painful to buy a simple stainless steel campy cable if you go into it knowing what's ahead.
i'm sure the shop wants your goodwill... i don't think breaking down mark up for them makes you a star customer that they want to look out for.

none of this should hurt.

[Grant McLean]

I imagine that if this cable had been packaged with a price tag showing a retail price of $9.99, I would not have questioned it. But considering the cable was handed to me in a coil with no packaging and the price quoted seemed to be guesstimated at best, I simply wondered if that was correct.

overpackaging is wasteful.
header cards and printed price tickets are expensive.
the machine that prints our tickets cost thousands of dollars
the rolls of printed tickets (both sticky and paper tags for clothing)
cost about $.25 each.

You would not believe me if I told you how much we pay
to a logistics company to receive, price, and transfer product
to the stores.

-g

[handsomerob]

have you come to the conclusion yet that you weren't being fair to your lbs? ....

:confused: Well, I am a bit torn. On one hand I feel like a 200% mark up is too high, but if the MSRP of a loose Campy cable is in fact $9.99, then it was a "fair" price. Just like the MSRP's of bikes are "fair" prices.

leaving the shop feeling victimized over a 30% discount seems kind of deepy unfair.

To clarify, I did not feel victimized paying $7 for the cable. I was wondering if it was fair for me to ask if $10 was the correct price.

I think your shop is being remarkably good to you.

The fact that he checked his "costs" book and reduced the price accordingly certainly made me feel better about doing business with them. He priced the previous Campy bits I ordered from him at 100% mark up and that is about what he did for the cable, so I would suspect that he felt fine about the transaction as well.

you came here and posted a question and i think have received a fairly resounding answer. i just don't get the impression you were actually open to an answer that didn't confirm your experience at the shop. no, you're were not being fair to them if you left feeling victimized.

The posters that had little more to offer than to tell me that I should just pay the $10 and quit whining didn't exactly sway my opinion. It was the objective information that Campagnolo cables retail for $9.99 that did more to make me reconsider my position than anything else.

[vaxn8r]

They didn't have ANY Campy compatible cables, Campagnolo, Jagwire, or otherwise.



I needed a Campy compatible cable for the rear derailleur. It didn't have to be an actual Campagnolo cable, but that was what he found in stock. Just because the bike was not for me doesn't mean it is ok to use an ill fitting Shimano cable.


When I buy anything Campagnolo I expect it to be more exclusive, tougher to find at most shops, and more expensive. I know all that going in. I wouldn't have taken the time to go to different shops or internet price search on a small section of cable. If I found it at shop #1 cool, what's it going to cost me?

Seems like the choices you were faced with were

1) Be a perfectionist, it's gotta be Campy and I need it now so I pay what I pay.

2) Be a perfectionist, it's gotta be Campy and I can wait several days. Pay shipping for on line.

3) It's a $300 bike. Put something on that's going to work. I bet they had a pile of used cable that would have worked and that they could have given you.

4) Find what you want, chisel the guy down, he feels poorly, you feel poorly. The fact you came and started the thread seems to point to not feeling very good about the transaction, or looking for others to justify what you did.

[handsomerob]

overpackaging is wasteful.
header cards and printed price tickets are expensive.
the machine that prints our tickets cost thousands of dollars
the rolls of printed tickets (both sticky and paper tags for clothing)
cost about $.25 each.

You would not believe me if I told you how much we pay
to a logistics company to receive, price, and transfer product
to the stores.

-g

I completely agree... I didn't care whether it had packaging or not, I needed the cable not some fancy packaging. The point about the packaging was that:

A.) A single "packaged" cable likely? costs more than those sold in bulk and I would have considered that as a contributing factor in the price.
B.) A packaged cable would also have a pricetag, which would help disspell my misconception that $10 was far too much.

[handsomerob]

When I buy anything Campagnolo I expect it to be more exclusive, tougher to find at most shops, and more expensive. I know all that going in. I wouldn't have taken the time to go to different shops or internet price search on a small section of cable. If I found it at shop #1 cool, what's it going to cost me?

Seems like the choices you were faced with were

1) Be a perfectionist, it's gotta be Campy and I need it now so I pay what I pay.

2) Be a perfectionist, it's gotta be Campy and I can wait several days. Pay shipping for on line.

3) It's a $300 bike. Put something on that's going to work. I bet they had a pile of used cable that would have worked and that they could have given you.

4) Find what you want, chisel the guy down, he feels poorly, you feel poorly. The fact you came and started the thread seems to point to not feeling very good about the transaction, or looking for others to justify what you did.

First off, I can't tell.... do you do understand that a Shimano derailleur cable will not seat properly in a Campagnolo shifter? The head is too big and can cause the shifter not to work properly.

Secondly, I really don't think the owner felt poorly at all. If the roles were reversed, I wouldn't have taken any offense to it because to me it was a reasonable question.

Lastly, I don't need justification from anyone. However, I know that I sometimes lack perception at times. I happen to be VERY thick skinned and unfortunately I have done some things that really pissed some people off without even realizing it because the reverse wouldn't have even been on my radar. This thread is the latest of those things.

[Grant McLean]

I completely agree... I didn't care whether it had packaging or not, I needed the cable not some fancy packaging. The point about the packaging was that:

A.) A single "packaged" cable likely? costs more than those sold in bulk and I would have considered that as a contributing factor in the price.
B.) A packaged cable would also have a pricetag, which would help disspell my misconception that $10 was far too much.

I'm just sayin' that people's perceptions of what things cost
really do change based on the product presentation, and that's
somewhat unfortunate for the planet.

Since nobody "needs" packaging, it would be great if customers
were actually willing to accept the truely greater service that
offering products in bulk really is to the world.

Is it really necessary for a bikeshop to toss 10,000 innertube boxes
every year? Yet I can assure you that none on my customers
want to buy a tube without a box. We're all stupid and short sighted.

Products in bulk should not have a 'lesser' value in our minds.
Overpackaging should be seen as what it is: an obscene waste.

-g

[CaptStash]

make it $50, $500, $5,000, call it "n". It's a principle of logical money management; get it? The day I started investing wisely was one on which I had lost some money in a deal, and had the insight that the lost money was very real and with it I could have bought something, be it a meal, a stock, or a bike. Moreover, I realized that it was not easily replaced. From that day on I was much more sober about money. Losses, whether in the form of overpayment or investment losses, are the most significant and overlooked aspect of money.

Behavioral economists also tell us that most people overestimate their abilities. You know anybody willing to fess up to being other than an above-average driver? More than for drivers, not many fess up to be poor handlers of their own money.

keno

I confess.

CaptStash....

[handsomerob]

I'm just sayin' that people's perceptions of what things cost
really do change based on the product presentation, and that's
somewhat unfortunate for the planet.

Since nobody "needs" packaging, it would be great if customers
were actually willing to accept the truely greater service that
offering products in bulk really is to the world.

Is it really necessary for a bikeshop to toss 10,000 innertube boxes
every year? Yet I can assure you that none on my customers
want to buy a tube without a box. We're all stupid and short sighted.

Products in bulk should not have a 'lesser' value in our minds.
Overpackaging should be seen as what it is: an obscene waste.

-g

funny you should say that...

There was a bike shop in Memphis and the owners were retiring and closing up shop. They had a bin full of tubes rolled up individually and held together by single rubber bands. They were marked down pretty good and I picked up around a dozen.

Boxes?? I don't need no stinkin' boxes.

p.s.... although on a lot of smaller ticket items the packaging is a LARGE portion of the actual cost and doing without would also allow the product to be sold cheaper in addition to helping the environment and such. :banana:

[keno]

Post pics of the A8.

Is that an order?

keno

[M.Sommers]

Is that an order?

keno

I'll pay $9.99 for a photo montage.

:beer:

[keno]

for $9.99 you get the last three digits of the VIN, and only if you say "pretty please." After all, I've got overhead, underwear, and all the rest of that stuff we business types have.

keno

[Grant McLean]

p.s.... although on a lot of smaller ticket items the packaging is a LARGE portion of the actual cost and doing without would also allow the product to be sold cheaper in addition to helping the environment and such. :banana:

why do you want it cheaper? you get the same product you need.
shouldn't the store get to make a little extra becuase they are helping you
make less garbage?

If the shop sells you the bulk version cheaper, they make less money than if they
sell you the packaged version. Why should the shop make less money
to sell you the same cable?

-g

[stevep]

I must have touched a sensitive spot in you that you would care that I sound cheap, whatever that means (perhap someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing).
keno

you didnt actually. i dont know you.
im just reading the posts and thats what i thought...
some people like to hold money, some like to use it.

my definition of a fool and his money is
a fool is the guy who dies with a lot.

not saying thats you either..i dont know you.

[handsomerob]

why do you want it cheaper? you get the same product you need.
shouldn't the store get to make a little extra becuase they are helping you
make less garbage?

If the shop sells you the bulk version cheaper, they make less money than if they
sell you the packaged version. Why should the shop make less money
to sell you the same cable?

-g

ok Grant...This is not some conspiracy to see how fast I can put every LBS across the country out of business. There is this principle called bulk pricing. It is where if you buy a whole lot of something the cost is reduced. Even moreso if the packaging is not required. Most the bike shops I frequent have those big rolls of around 100? cables. I imagine they are cheaper to buy like that than packaged individually. Also IIRC, bike shops often get gruppos without all the fancy boxes at a reduced cost as well, so I assume this theory isn't completely foreign to you. In fact, there are a lot of products this principle applies to.

And since you are finding a hard time relating rationally to bike related items, let's take batteries. Plain 'ole Duracell AA batteries... from someplace familiar... say Best Buy.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=abcat0208002

a 4 pack of batteries is $4.99 or $1.25/each
a 8 pack of batteries is $6.99 or $.87/each
a 16 pack of batteries is $11.49 or $.71/each

Say, I wanted to flip my batteries to make a profit. If I bought batteries in 4 packs and sold them individually for $2, I would make about $.75 per battery. If I bought them in 16 packs, I could sell them for $1.50 and make $.79 per battery.

So, this method of buying in bulk would ALLOW me to sell batteries at 25% cheaper (if I was so inclined) AND make more money per battery.

[Pete Serotta]

Rob, you are not buying in BULK so why should you get BULK pricing? That has nothing to do with LBS but is business 101. (Examples are COSTCO and SAMs). You get a cheaper price if you buy in bulk from them. Very hard to have it both ways. Tell you what, since we are over 150posts and I can not buy you a beer. Give me your address (send it to me) and I will send you $5= will that make you feel better and then you can buy the beer (yeah it cost more just buying one instead of a case.)

Why am I posting....Grant adds alot to this forum with his skills and knowledge - and I feel you are coming very close to being a non-gentleman to him (and thus us). Grant is priceless, as they say, and a $3 cable is nothing. I can barely get a good glass of red for the coin you all are having heartache over.

Thanks :) Pete


ok Grant...This is not some conspiracy to see how fast I can put every LBS across the country out of business. There is this principle called bulk pricing. It is where if you buy a whole lot of something the cost is reduced. Even moreso if the packaging is not required. Most the bike shops I frequent have those big rolls of around 100? cables. I imagine they are cheaper to buy like that than packaged individually. Also IIRC, bike shops often get gruppos without all the fancy boxes at a reduced cost as well, so I assume this theory isn't completely foreign to you. In fact, there are a lot of products this principle applies to.

And since you are finding a hard time relating rationally to bike related items, let's take batteries. Plain 'ole Duracell AA batteries... from someplace familiar... say Best Buy.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=abcat0208002

a 4 pack of batteries is $4.99 or $1.25/each
a 8 pack of batteries is $6.99 or $.87/each
a 16 pack of batteries is $11.49 or $.71/each

Say, I wanted to flip my batteries to make a profit. If I bought batteries in 4 packs and sold them individually for $2, I would make about $.75 per battery. If I bought them in 16 packs, I could sell them for $1.50 and make $.79 per battery.

So, this method of buying in bulk would ALLOW me to sell batteries at 25% cheaper (if I was so inclined) AND make more money per battery.

[Jeff Weir]

Could we change the subject of this thread to something more meaningful, such as the price of inner tubes or end plugs for handlebars? That now should be worth at least 300 posts.

[swoop]

Could we change the subject of this thread to something more meaningful, such as the price of inner tubes or end plugs for handlebars? That now should be worth at least 300 posts.

how about camera lenses?

[keno]

how about camera lenses?

Lenses too meaningful for me - I think that lens caps would be more in line with this thread.

keno

[handsomerob]

Rob, you are not buying in BULK so why should you get BULK pricing? That has nothing to do with LBS but is business 101. (Examples are COSTCO and SAMs). You get a cheaper price if you buy in bulk from them. Very hard to have it both ways. Tell you what, since we are over 150posts and I can not buy you a beer. Give me your address (send it to me) and I will send you $5= will that make you feel better and then you can buy the beer (yeah it cost more just buying one instead of a case.)

Why am I posting....Grant adds alot to this forum with his skills and knowledge - and I feel you are coming very close to being a non-gentleman to him (and thus us). Grant is priceless, as they say, and a $3 cable is nothing. I can barely get a good glass of red for the coin you all are having heartache over.

Thanks :) Pete

This will be my very last post on this thread....

First, I apologize if I was un-gentlemanly to anyone.

Second, I am quite clear that my single cable purchase does not qualify me for bulk pricing. I was referring to the LBS (and any other retailer) getting bulk discounts and as such the opportunity to be more flexible with pricing if they so choose. If they want to charge the same and make more, that is their business and they can do what they want. If you re-read my post, you will see that I chose my words carefully and said that it would ALLOW the product to be sold cheaper. I hope people realize that this is completely a business perspective and not a personal attack on bike shops.

At this point it doesn't matter whether I agree with someone or not. I agreed with Grant about the packaging whole-heartedly and added some business perspective thoughts that seemed to just throw fuel on the fire. I agreed with Swoop that if the cables are $9.99 retail then that is a fair price, yet people still think this is about $3.

This is about perception. I perceived $10 per cable to be too much. I walked out of the shop wondering if my perception was off kilter. I wanted a little collective opinion on what was fair to expect from a LBS. Instead of objective opinions, I got... just pay the $10 and be happy they are there.

If I told any of my customers to just pay me what I ask and be happy I am here, I am pretty sure I would be out of customers pretty quickly. I don't want bike shops to fail... WHAT CYCLIST DOES? Everyone is always talking about how hard it is to make a living owning a bike shop and what would it hurt to consider the trends in the market and what changes could be made to increase sales?

I worked for a rental car company that was EXTREMELY conscious of the pricing within the industry. For quite some time, we were not allowed to be priced higher than 3rd cheapest in the market in our bid for more marketshare. We looked for cost savings anywhere we could find them to make up for "lost" revenue due to lower prices.

Our GREATEST cost savings was through fleet growth which spread our fixed costs and in turn made us more profitable. A higher volume of sales at a little bit lower prices is something that worked for us. Finding that sweet spot in supply and demand is difficult to do, but I would certainly hope it isn't impossible.

[dave thompson]

This will be my very last post on this thread....

First, I apologize if I was un-gentlemanly to anyone.
Second, I am quite clear that my single cable purchase does not qualify me for bulk pricing. I was referring to the LBS (and any other retailer) getting bulk discounts and as such the opportunity to be more flexible with pricing if they so choose. If they want to charge the same and make more, that is their business and they can do what they want. If you re-read my post, you will see that I chose my words carefully and said that it would ALLOW the product to be sold cheaper. I hope people realize that this is completely a business perspective and not a personal attack on bike shops.

At this point it doesn't matter whether I agree with someone or not. I agreed with Grant about the packaging whole-heartedly and added some business perspective thoughts that seemed to just throw fuel on the fire. I agreed with Swoop that if the cables are $9.99 retail then that is a fair price, yet people still think this is about $3.

This is about perception. I perceived $10 per cable to be too much. I walked out of the shop wondering if my perception was off kilter. I wanted a little collective opinion on what was fair to expect from a LBS. Instead of objective opinions, I got... just pay the $10 and be happy they are there.

If I told any of my customers to just pay me what I ask and be happy I am here, I am pretty sure I would be out of customers pretty quickly. I don't want bike shops to fail... WHAT CYCLIST DOES? Everyone is always talking about how hard it is to make a living owning a bike shop and what would it hurt to consider the trends in the market and what changes could be made to increase sales?

I worked for a rental car company that was EXTREMELY conscious of the pricing within the industry. For quite some time, we were not allowed to be priced higher than 3rd cheapest in the market in our bid for more marketshare. We looked for cost savings anywhere we could find them to make up for "lost" revenue due to lower prices.

Our GREATEST cost savings was through fleet growth which spread our fixed costs and in turn made us more profitable. A higher volume of sales at a little bit lower prices is something that worked for us. Finding that sweet spot in supply and demand is difficult to do, but I would certainly hope it isn't impossible.

Unfortunately, the LBS doesn't enjoy the cost savings when they comp a flat repair, toss you a small part gratis, spend time talking with you about the attributes of one brand of something over the other, show/tell you how to fix a problem that you're having or any one of the myriad ways they give you something, be it goods, services or advice.

A bicycle is probably the most personal item a person can have and more often than not they get deeply involved with it, it's the nature of the beast.
There is such a huge variety of parts, components and goodies available for bikes that it is impossible for any LBS to be able to stock even a small portion of them.

I am not an proponent of you must buy everything from the LBS, but I strongly advocate that you give them a fair shake, pay for something that they have when "you need it now", treat them well if they treat you well.

For anyone to begrudge someone trying to make a go of an enterprise is IMO pretty hypocritical. If you don't like what's being charged, simply don't buy it. But for you to talk about markup, excess profit margins and the like, instead let's talk about your commissions when you sell an insurance product. Let's talk about lowering your commission because I think you make too much money from me. Same difference atmo.

[soulspinner]

Unfortunately, the LBS doesn't enjoy the cost savings when they comp a flat repair, toss you a small part gratis, spend time talking with you about the attributes of one brand of something over the other, show/tell you how to fix a problem that you're having or any one of the myriad ways they give you something, be it goods, services or advice.

A bicycle is probably the most personal item a person can have and more often than not they get deeply involved with it, it's the nature of the beast.
There is such a huge variety of parts, components and goodies available for bikes that it is impossible for any LBS to be able to stock even a small portion of them.

I am not an proponent of you must buy everything from the LBS, but I strongly advocate that you give them a fair shake, pay for something that they have when "you need it now", treat them well if they treat you well.

For anyone to begrudge someone trying to make a go of an enterprise is IMO pretty hypocritical. If you don't like what's being charged, simply don't buy it. But for you to talk about markup, excess profit margins and the like, instead let's talk about your commissions when you sell an insurance product. Let's talk about lowering your commission because I think you make too much money from me. Same difference atmo.

+++1111

[GoJavs]

I guess it comes down to buying habits. If I walk into a shop knowing I 'have to have' something I don't even ask for the price. Nor do I question the price.

If I don't like the price I take it as a lesson learned.

[periscope]

not that this thread needs to be any longer but i figured this might not be a bad place to post for the first time at periscope depth.

hello all.

i've been a bike mechanic since the 90s and currently work at a medium sized local shop (that recently added a second location that is a trek concept store) that sells everything from kids bikes to C-50s.

many of the long time customers prefer the old location tot he big shiny new one.

i also happen to dig every bike posted in these forums.




I went in one of my favorite local shops the other day needing a single Campy compatible derailleur cable........

i always tell our customers, call ahead and save yourself the gas and time. i'm not sure which is more valuable these days.

if we don't have it, i'll suggest anther shop that might.

the only reason we started to stock campagnolo small/spare parts was due to the owner picking up bianchi and colnago.



Should a single cable be $10?



this should probably say:

Should a single Campagnolo cable be $10?



$10 has been the cost of the shift cable for several years. but we don't stock the cheap stuff 'cause the people using campagnolo drivetrains want genuine campagnolo small/spare parts.





Have I been so spoiled by eBay and discount retailers like cbike and pricepoint that my perception of a decent value is skewed?


many of our customers have. and that's ok by me since our parts ordering system is _cumbersome_ and the software it runs was probably written for the ColecoVision video game consoles.

from the view of the service dept., labor is straight profit. so if someone brings in an Ultra Torque crankset and wants it installed on the spot, and we have time, they pay the going rate: $30.

the shop didn't have to order the part, pay shipping, have someone add it to stock, physically put it somewhere, and keep it cool or warm.

so i tell customers, if it's a better deal on the web, get in there. sometimes we can price match. it's rare though.

we make up the loss in a lot of other places and it shows in the service dept. numbers at the end of the month. the boss is happy and the customers are happy.

this is not to say we don't sell components. we do. but we tend to sell more bikes and service.


one thing that does hurt several of the shops in our area; they hire sales people to run the floor. the serious cyclists see right through the sales tactics and it really turns customers off.

my solution to the service dept's favorite customers, who are put off by sales people: see a mechanic first. always.



while the thread was long and somewhat heated....there were a lot of good points and i've enjoyed reading a lot of the postings on here since i stumbled on the forum a few years ago.

[M.Sommers]

not that this thread needs to be any longer but i figured this might not be a bad place to post for the first time at periscope depth.

hello all.

i've been a bike mechanic since the 90s and currently work at a medium sized local shop (that recently added a second location that is a trek concept store) that sells everything from kids bikes to C-50s.

many of the long time customers prefer the old location tot he big shiny new one.

i also happen to dig every bike posted in these forums.






i always tell our customers, call ahead and save yourself the gas and time. i'm not sure which is more valuable these days.

if we don't have it, i'll suggest anther shop that might.

the only reason we started to stock campagnolo small/spare parts was due to the owner picking up bianchi and colnago.







this should probably say:





$10 has been the cost of the shift cable for several years. but we don't stock the cheap stuff 'cause the people using campagnolo drivetrains want genuine campagnolo small/spare parts.








many of our customers have. and that's ok by me since our parts ordering system is _cumbersome_ and the software it runs was probably written for the ColecoVision video game consoles.

from the view of the service dept., labor is straight profit. so if someone brings in an Ultra Torque crankset and wants it installed on the spot, and we have time, they pay the going rate: $30.

the shop didn't have to order the part, pay shipping, have someone add it to stock, physically put it somewhere, and keep it cool or warm.

so i tell customers, if it's a better deal on the web, get in there. sometimes we can price match. it's rare though.

we make up the loss in a lot of other places and it shows in the service dept. numbers at the end of the month. the boss is happy and the customers are happy.

this is not to say we don't sell components. we do. but we tend to sell more bikes and service.


one thing that does hurt several of the shops in our area; they hire sales people to run the floor. the serious cyclists see right through the sales tactics and it really turns customers off.

my solution to the service dept's favorite customers, who are put off by sales people: see a mechanic first. always.



while the thread was long and somewhat heated....there were a lot of good points and i've enjoyed reading a lot of the postings on here since i stumbled on the forum a few years ago.

Great first post dude. :beer:

Oh and Coleco Football ROCKED:

http://www.gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/VirtualExhibits/electronic/handheld/sport/quarter.html

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dN29x0jtLbo&mode=user&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdCzLnuvXGg&NR=1

DarrenCT needs the tennis atmo:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x9RiI2LAWmU&feature=related