Comparison Ottrot vs Tetra Pro

[vaxn8r]

Well here is my $02. I finally rode the Ottrott ST and was very impressed. First off, I have to admit to being underimpressed with the vast majority of photos I've seen. I'll be the first to admit the photos don't do these bikes justice. The tinting is perfect, the joints are clean, welds are (nearly) perfect. I like the understated matte bar with polish lettering (not decal) in the ti.

As far as ride, this bike was built with Record 10/Eurus. It felt very fast. It is hard to explain but you can just tell when a bike feels fast. It is very well balanced and the handling is perfect. For descending down a curvy mountain pass this was the perfect bike. You just want to lay into the curves. To me the one and only flaw is in climbing. On a 1-10 scale I give it an 8 in this one area. Good but certainly not great. Why is this so? Does the 5mm of "give" in the ST dampen the energy input? Is the ti BB too soft? I honestly can't tell and would be curious what others thought.

Short note on the Tetra Pro DA10/DA wheels. First off, the Tetra Pro climbs like you have jets on. Honestly it feels like somebody is giving your saddle a push from behind. The TP feels just as fast as the Ottrott. Again, a very fuzzy term that's all about personal feel. Finally, the TP does not have the feel of the Serotta in terms of diving into the corners. Having said that, few bikes do. Still, I deduct points from Calfee but not much, as it is well balanced too and _never_feels the least bit out of control. Maybe a 9/10 for twisty descents. Maybe this is the light front end on the Calfee...it has a AQ sub-3 fork. The Ottrott is almost 1.5 lbs heavier and I know a lot of that is in the F2 fork.

Anyway, because of the climbing issue only, not because of what I own, I'd give the overall nod to Calfee. First of all the Calfee is a better descender than the Ottrott is a climber though it's close. Secondly, I do hills all the time on every ride so my needs are biased to climbing. Probably for most areas of the country this is a moot point. I guess finally it would also come down to what drives your passion. If it's the Ottrott, it's such a good bike and such a close call with the Calfee that you could hardly be disappointed with it. Finally, if you think an Ottrott climbs well....you absolutely won't believe what a Calfee will do for you.

[slowgoing]

I have the opposite opinion. I haven't ridden an ottrott, but I have an atlanta and a(n) hors and a tetra pro. I don't like the TP at all. Its angles are too steep for my liking, it doesn't have have the downhill stability of the serottas (it even shimmies) and it doesn't climb as well. I like its comfort but not at that price. I took the parts off the frame after about 100 miles and have had it hanging in my garage for about two years. Every time I walk by I think about what I should have bought instead.

[jeffg]

I guess my impressions lie somewhere between slowgoing and vaxn8r. I would agree that a good carbon bike does seem to fly up hills -- a Calfee or a Parlee is a perfect example here. I would say that the Ottrott I rode was a great climber, but it had an all-Ti rear triangle. I didn't like the feel of the DKS climbing or the ST. As for descending, I agree with slowgoing. The Tetra and D'Flys I rode felt terrible on technical descents. The Parlee, on the other hand, has Hampsten "stage race" geometry and is aggressive but beautifully stable -- just like my Legend.

[jeffg]

I guess my impressions lie somewhere between slowgoing and vaxn8r. I would agree that a good carbon bike does seem to fly up hills -- a Calfee or a Parlee is a perfect example here. I would say that the Ottrott I rode was a great climber, but it had an all-Ti rear triangle. I didn't like the feel of the DKS climbing or the ST. As for descending, I agree with slowgoing. The Tetra and D'Flys I rode felt terrible on technical descents. The Parlee, on the other hand, has Hampsten "stage race" geometry and is aggressive but beautifully stable -- just like my Legend.

[rnhood]

I have a Calfee Tetra and it is rock stable going downhill, at any speed. I mean so stable that I can eat lunch without batting an eye while flying downhill. It also has the most effortless acceleration of any bike that I have owned or ridden. The bottom bracket and lateral stiffness are simply excellent. Any Calfee that is not stable is likely a bike where probably the fork is not the one Calfee spec'd for the bike (maybe purchased used) or not properly installed. A properly built Calfee with the appropriately raked fork does not shimmy. I really doubt any other properly built bike will shimmy either.

[PsyDoc]

...in the January '04 test in Tour magazine. They tested a 57cm Calfee Dragon Fly Pro with the weight of the 57cm frame being 1050g. frame+fork 1370g. Fork in test was Stork Stiletto.

The Calfee rated:

Weight: 13/15
Drivetrain stability: 4/15(31m/decree=below good)
Front end stiffnes: 5/15 (59Nm/decree=below good)
BB stiffnes: 12/15(95Nm/decree=good)
Comfort: 8/15
Together: 52/90

To compare to the recent Scott carbon frame:

Scott cr1 pro 2004 1392g:

Drivetrain stability: 43m/decree
Front end stiffnes: 83m/decree
BB stiffnes: 101Nm/decree

[slowgoing]

The fork was an ouzo pro that has been on a couple of other bikes with no similar problems.

[jeffg]

The forks on the bikes I rode were Calfee spec'd Alpha Qs -- the same fork I have on the Parlee. The main difference is the steeper HTA and shorter fork rake of the Calfee versus the more neutral angles, lower bb, and slightly longer CS of the Parlee and Serotta.

[vaxn8r]

Slow, I question why you bought it too. You gave up on a $2K frame after 100 miles? I'm quite sure you had it set up wrong if it shimmied. Maybe a bad fork, HS installation or something else. Sorry to hear about that. Did you speak with Craig because he'll make anything correct for you? I have to believe there's more to the story than you're letting on. 100 miles and it's "art work"? What size is your frame?

Jeffg, So do you think the ST hinders climbing a bit? That was my thought but I haven't tried a ti rear. I have ridden several all ti bikes, I don't think climb as well as a TP (though never a Legend or Ottrott nonST). I wonder about your TP set up. I have about 6cm of drop from my saddle to bars and a 120 stem. The descents here are very technical, steep, often gravelly, with lots of hairpins. I don't seem to have a bit of trouble on them. I'd guess it has to do with the bike you rode. Don't get me wrong, I love the way the Serotta feels in those steep curves, better than the Calfee, I just don't think I'm compromised _at all_ on the hard descents.

[mavic1010]

I think a big difference (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that an ottrott can be tuned thereby giving different feels. Maybe the ottrott ST didn't climb as well cuz it wasn't as stiff (the carbon tube selection). I've ridden many ottrotts and each though similar had different characteristics. The only ottrott ST I rode was Thom B's and it was by far the smoothest I've ridden, but lacked the "racer go fast" feel. The painted red ottrott I had was in my opinion too stiff, felt like a rocket, but if I had ksyriums on it, I did feel a bit beat up after a long ride. Put a set of open pros on that rocket, and I would be okay. The other two were more of a compromise, rocket like feel, but didn't beat me up. Of course the 3 that I had owned briefly were all ti rears. Thom's was the only ST I rode.

Now, the only calfee I rode was Blastinbob's Luna Pro for a brief moment and the one thing I noticed was that it was fast (Thom actually rode the calfee as well) but the front end felt way too twitchy....He had an ouzo pro on front. I'm just not a big fan of the ouzo pro since I had that on that orange legend ti, and I felt it was way too twitchy as well. I believe the HA on the calfee was more aggressive than the legend ti, therefore concluded it was the feel of the ouzo pro...I know, not too scientific.

[Jeff Weir]

I get the impression that Mavic might have owned as many bikes as dbrk....

[jeffg]

Slow, I question why you bought it too. You gave up on a $2K frame after 100 miles? I'm quite sure you had it set up wrong if it shimmied. Maybe a bad fork, HS installation or something else. Sorry to hear about that. Did you speak with Craig because he'll make anything correct for you? I have to believe there's more to the story than you're letting on. 100 miles and it's "art work"? What size is your frame?

Jeffg, So do you think the ST hinders climbing a bit? That was my thought but I haven't tried a ti rear. I have ridden several all ti bikes, I don't think climb as well as a TP (though never a Legend or Ottrott nonST). I wonder about your TP set up. I have about 6cm of drop from my saddle to bars and a 120 stem. The descents here are very technical, steep, often gravelly, with lots of hairpins. I don't seem to have a bit of trouble on them. I'd guess it has to do with the bike you rode. Don't get me wrong, I love the way the Serotta feels in those steep curves, better than the Calfee, I just don't think I'm compromised _at all_ on the hard descents.

Yeah, that's my take on the ST -- don't like the feel.

As for the Calfee setup, I think it depends on what size you ride. Below a 58cm (measured the Calfee way), the geos seem reasonable to me. It's just above 56 that you get the 74 degree HTA/4.0 fork rake instead of 73.5/4.3. That to me makes all the difference.

[LegendRider]

I've owned a Tetra Pro and a Legend (ti rear, 7cm bottom bracket drop). In fact, I've easily put over 10k miles on both with the same DA 9sp group. For me, the perfect bike is the Calfee built with Legend geometry. The Calfee climbs better, but it's simply too nervous in the front end. A friend spoke with Craig Calfee who said he builds for the American (crit) market. The Legend is solid as a rock but seems to lack something on the climbs. I have heard others say the same thing about the Legend. I can't offer any concrete reasons aside from a little weight, but it's my perception.

[slowgoing]

vaxn8r - I didn't give up on the tp just because it shimmied. I didn't like a few other things about it (as stated above) and felt it was a result of the geometry so there was no point in pursuing it further. It was fast, though, I will say that. But I like more stability when I'm going fast. And I felt that way about the tp before I even rode a Serotta, so when I finally did, I was very impressed with the Serotta and even less impressed with the tp.

The tp is a size 54 and soon will be shipped to my brother. Hopefully he'll like it more than I did.

[bcm119]

The Calfee climbs better, but it's simply too nervous in the front end. A friend spoke with Craig Calfee who said he builds for the American (crit) market.

Why is "crit geometry" associated with nervous, twitchy front ends? That seems like the last quality you'd want in a tight pack. A neutral handling bike seems like a better tool for that job, as its easier to hold a line and carve a smoother corner line using your hips rather than your hands.

[LegendRider]

Crit geometry generally means steeper angles, less trail and higher bottom brackets. Serious crit riders want very agile bikes.

[vaxn8r]

Why is "crit geometry" associated with nervous, twitchy front ends? That seems like the last quality you'd want in a tight pack. A neutral handling bike seems like a better tool for that job, as its easier to hold a line and carve a smoother corner line using your hips rather than your hands.

What is "crit geometry"?

The Serotta std geo and the Calfee std geos are almost identical. Same ST angels, same or very close HT angles. A 54 cm Calfee is 73 v 72.75 on a 54 Serotta. Same BB drop, same CS length. Calfee tends to have slightly shorter WB at each stock size. Maybe there is something to minute differences in HT angles. Maybe it has more to do with which fork you use. I know Serotta recommends only the Reynolds while Calfee recommends the True Temper.

I guess both bikes come custom so with that you can throw everything out the window. But just looking at std geos...they aren't much different.

[LegendRider]

My 58cm Tetra Pro had a steeper head tube angle and shorter wheelbase. It felt noticeably more nervous than my Serotta. Ask the Jerk if you can feel the difference in the two bikes. I could, and a friend of mine had the same two bikes and he made the same observation.

[vaxn8r]

Oh, I can tell a difference, but it's subtle, not major.

Also, I tire of people claiming this bike is "crit", like that's a bad thing, but then the geos are essentially identical to your, and my, Serottas. I think it's by far more important how you set up your bike, stem length and height, saddle position etc. At least if you're talking night and day differences, I don't think that could be accounted for by the geo. Don't believe me check out the stats. They are pretty much the same.

[NateM]

I ride a stock 58cm Tetra/Alpha Q 1" fork and a stock 57 Ser Ti/F1 fork. The steeper head tube angle on the Tetra (74 vs 73.5) makes a big difference in handling.It is quicker than the Ser. The wheelbase on the Tetra is 99.4 while the Ser is 99.8,all other measurements are identical.
An observation on your comparison of the Ottrott and the Tetra,if you use the same wheels,tires it will allow a better comparison of frame differences.The Ottrott has a 8cm BB drop compared to 7cm on the Tetra. I have not ridden a properly sized Ottrott (rode a 54cm custom) but I would agree with most of the above observations.

[jeffg]

Vax --

The geo differences in the larger sizes are substantial. A 73.5 HTA/4.3 rake versus 74/4.0 is huge. No stock Serotta I have ever seen has a 74 HTA. Add .5 cm to the CS and 1cm to the BB drop and we are talking fairly significant changes. Just my experience. Perhaps I should try a smaller size with a longer stem ...

[bcm119]

My question was more along the lines of: why do quick handling bikes make good crit bikes? I don't race crits, so its just a question for those that do: having ridden quick handling bikes, I think I'd be more comfortable in a crit situation with a more neutral front end feel. But like I said, I have no experience in a crit. I ask because I'm considering trying one next season.

It wasn't a criticism of steep geo'ed bikes, just an inquiry about their use.

[Kevan]

that the ride characteristics of the Calfee Luna (the low end model) rides just the same as the Tetra-Pro? Did you know that there's only a 1/4 lb. difference in weight between these models? Did you know that a Dura-ace laced Luna goes for around $3700 bucks ( Bicycling's recent accolades mentioned the $$$$) making it one of the bestest darnest deals in the whole riding world?

Did you know that?!

I did :D

[vaxn8r]

Vax --

The geo differences in the larger sizes are substantial. A 73.5 HTA/4.3 rake versus 74/4.0 is huge. No stock Serotta I have ever seen has a 74 HTA. Add .5 cm to the CS and 1cm to the BB drop and we are talking fairly significant changes. Just my experience. Perhaps I should try a smaller size with a longer stem ...
Good point on rake, I have no idea what fork rake I have. I know the AQ comes in a 41 and 44. I should call Calfee and find out what's std. They don't say on their site.

I wonder about 0.25-0.5deg in HA. Is that really a huge difference? Because it's like a 0.3% difference. Can one actually feel such a thing? Anyone know?

I didn't know the Ottrott had a 8cm BB drop. I know my Atlanta is 7 and I've seen other places where Serotta lists 7 as their std BB drop. Maybe it's changed.

[Sandy]

Serotta now uses 8 cm for the bb drop.

Sandy

[SPOKE]

if you can accurately convey what ride qualities you desire in a frame set/bike then i'm sure that both the Calfee and the Ottrott can be built to meet these requirements. if you don't compare them this way then all you're doing is comparing apples to oranges. now i agree that about all any of us can do is take test rides on demo bikes then try to sort out our likes and dis-likes. where it gets interesting is taking that leap of faith that a particular bike builder can actually build the bike to meet the qualities you desire. Serotta has hit the mark for me on 5 of the 6 bikes that i own. the only reason i discount one, my Legend, is the simple fact that it was stock geometry back in 1999 and all i had them do is put a custom paint job on it! yes, it is a very nice riding bike just not custom. Tom Kellogg hit the mark too when he built my 25th anniversary frame set.
now here's my RANT! if you're going to compare two bikes from custom builders be sure that both are built to meet the same ride characteristics that YOU desire. if you do this then i believe that you can make a valid comparison between the two.

[sharky]

I own a Calfee Dragonfly and an Ottrott ST, and I like them both equally well but for different reasons. I agree with Spoke 100%, but its so cool to listen to everyone rant