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View Full Version : an alternate view of the "bisphenol" A issue


deechee
04-18-2008, 10:30 AM
The majority of you seem to have the ability to question politics and how they are reported in the media (moguls) so why not question science and interpretation of those results? How often are poll results skewed? How often has someone told you something you know is not true?

I think a number of you should read this article: (also included below)
http://www.elfe.net/e/Story.asp?SectionID=2&ContentID=1043&qReturnPg=/e/default.asp&s=090JAA

Its written by Joe Schwarcz, a well-respected local chemist who teaches at McGill University and runs a series of programs for children and adults.

Science is around our lives everywhere. Do you think the meat you buy at the grocery would last as long as does without the plastic shrink wrap? Do you realize most of your fruits and vegetables have some kind of genetic engineering/cross-breeding? When was the last time you ate an heirloom tomato?

I doubt I'll ever use a Sigg bottle while riding. I'm not able to unsrew the cap everytime I want to drink, and I can't squeeze the bottle? I have to tilt it all the way up to drink? And tell me, how clean are you getting that bottle? With the wide mouth plastic bottles I can stick in brushes and really scrub it. Are you sure your opaque bottle is clean inside? Is that pipe brush really getting through to the bottom? I like verifying my bottles are fungus free before filling them.

I'm copy-pasting from my cache:
Bisphenol A - 'A little learning is a dangerous thing'
Saturday, February 16, 2008

What did Alexander Pope say? "A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring; There shallow thoughts intoxicate the brain; And drinking largely sobers us again." But the poet never had to think about drinking spring water out of a polycarbonate bottle, did he?

Bisphenol A (BPA), a chemical that can leach out of polycarbonate bottles, is clearly the "toxin du jour." Environmental organizations label it as a clear threat to our health and some politicians have even begun to clamour to ban any substance that can release BPA.

The current media focus on BPA was stimulated by a couple of studies that measured the amount of this chemical that leached into water stored in polycarbonate bottles. Such studies are motivated by one of the well-established chemical characteristics of BPA, namely that it has hormone-like effects. And since hormones can be physiologically active at very small doses, the potential effects of BPA certainly merit investigation, especially given that some hormone-driven cancers appear to be increasing.

Of course, before we attempt to evaluate the meaning of the amount of BPA leaching out of bottles, we have to have some idea of the dose at which the chemical presents a hazard. Although there is no universal agreement on what is a safe intake, there is a consensus among regulatory agencies that rodents treated with five milligrams of BPA per kilogram of body weight do not experience adverse effects. This is referred to as the "no observed adverse effect level," or NOAEL. Building in a safety factor of 100, these agencies have proposed a Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) for humans of 0.05 milligrams per kg .

Let's get back to the bottles, and consider worst case scenarios. We'll focus on baby bottles, because if BPA presents a risk, it is expected to be most significant during the developmental stage. In the most recent study, the maximum amount of BPA that leached into water from a polycarbonate bottle was eight nanograms per millilitre. Let's assume a baby were to drink a litre of this water. One milligram is a million nanograms, so the total intake would be 0.008 milligrams. If the baby weighs 5 kg (11 pounds), we have an intake of 0.0016 mg per kg of body weight. This is about one-thirtieth the TDI and one three-thousandth the "no observable adverse effect level," in test animals.

That's theory. What about measuring how much BPA we are actually exposed to? That's been done. The Centres for Disease Control in the U.S. sampled urine from more than 2,000 people age 6 to 85 and found an average of about 2.7 nanograms per mL. Since bisphenol A does not accumulate in the body, the urinary output can be used to estimate the amount taken in through food and water. This calculates to 50 nanograms per kg of body weight. And how does that compare with the TDI? It is 1,000 times less. And 100,000 times less than the dose that causes no effect in test animals. Some researchers argue that the calculation of oral intake based on urinary output is flawed and that if one goes by studies in animals the value should be at least 100 times greater. Even if we accept this argument, we are still looking at an intake that is a thousand times less than the dose that causes no effect in test animals. So there seems to be a significant safety factor here, even if one argues about the exact value of the NOAEL.

Since the human is not a giant rat, the possibility exists that we are more sensitive to hormone disrupting chemicals than rodents. But if that is the case, we have a lot more to worry about than just BPA. Remember the joke about the drunk who was walking back and forth below a street lamp? What did you lose, he was asked? My keys, came the reply. Did you drop them here? No, he answered, but this is the only place where there is light!

Right now, the light is being cast on bisphenol A, while numerous hormone-like substances lurk in the arkness.

Take lavender-scented soaps and lotions, for example. These have been linked with breast growth in young boys. It turns out lavender oil activates estrogen regulating genes in human breast cells. Alfalfa sprout extracts display increased breast cancer cell proliferation above levels seen with estradiol, an estrogen. Soybeans contain natural estrogenic compounds, and so does milk. Milk represents a far greater estrogenic exposure than we experience from BPA. Our average daily intake of estrogens through milk is about 370 nanograms, 20 times greater than the amount of BPA found in a litre of water consumed from a polycarbonate baby bottle. Nobody suggests banning milk even though it contains a good dose of estrogenic compounds. Neither should they.

That's not all. Nonylphenol, an ingredient in numerous detergents, is estrogenic. It ends up in sewage, along with natural estrogens and birth control pill remnants excreted by women. Sewage treatment plants do not remove these substances and they can end up in surface water as well as in ground water when sewage sludge is spread on fields as fertilizer.

We are awash in a sea of both natural and synthetic hormone disrupting substances and it is unrealistic to accuse a specific one of being the devil. This does not mean we should be cavalier about hormone-like substances in the environment.

Even though there is no evidence that at the levels encountered, BPA is a risk to humans, we can't rule out the possibility that babies may not excrete BPA as efficiently as adults, or that the chemical might have a synergistic effect when combined with other endocrine disrupting substances. Baby bottles made of glass or other plastics are available, and it seems a good idea to search for viable alternatives to the epoxy lining in canned foods. But panic over drinking from polycarbonate bottles is unwarranted, and talk of banning polycarbonate plastics is naive.


Joe Schwarcz is director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society

(www.OSS.McGill.ca).

He can be heard every Sunday from 3-4 p.m. on CJAD.

joe.schwarcz@mcgill.ca

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2008

Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

Hardlyrob
04-18-2008, 10:39 AM
Linkee no workee - I would like to read the article.

Rob

regularguy412
04-18-2008, 01:28 PM
I think we also have to consider just how 'long' water (or any other liquid) remains in the bottle until it leaches a significant amount. I mean if you're filling your bottles daily and letting them dry out between uses,, it's hard for me to imagine there is very much time for any detrimental agents to leach out-- even on a 4 - 5 hour ride. I really like the Specialized bottles,, both for their soft bite valve and for their ease of handling. I have several of these,,on the order of 10 to 12, that I use regularly. I don't use the same ones every day. They are allowed to dry thoroughly between uses. I'm not sure this makes any difference, but it's the procedure I've always used.

Of course, we may not know the real adverse affects on our own bodies until 20-30 years down the road. By then, who is to say it's not just old age?

MIke in AR:beer:

Hardlyrob
04-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Wow - good article, well reasoned and well presented. I had been aware of the buzz around BPA, but not motivated enough to really look into it. I'm glad someone had the guts to publish a fact based analysis of what may be really happening instead of throwing their hands in the air and decrying all human activity as detrimental to all known life forms.

There is a good editorial in today's Wall Street Journal about global warming and the alarming amount of mis-information in the press. Additionally, that there appear to be some significant problems with the data over time, and that it is possible that the global warming trends are the result of bad data.

Russell
04-18-2008, 02:19 PM
I can vouch for the lavender-scented soaps and lotions; you should see my rack. :)

Kevan
04-18-2008, 02:38 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24200402

NO!!!!

ss-jimbo
04-18-2008, 03:14 PM
As for global warming, did anyone notice that NPR put a 16 year old with a website questioning human influence on global warming on the radio? It was pretty clear that she was a mouthpiece for her "stay at home" step father, but who's going to put an unemployed 40 year old on the radio to talk about global warming.

jimcav
04-18-2008, 03:16 PM
my understanding is more of it leaches if the container is heated. anyway, we are surrounded by chemicals in food stroage products, as well as in or on foods. Not many have been rigorously tested, nor around long enough to gauge long term effects. Industry is full of substances that were once thought safe, and that have had revised NOAEL, PELs, etc.
In europe, there were once studies showing higher alzheimer rates in areas where aluminum was prevelant in the water/ground. To me, it is pretty simple to not drink out of aluminum cans (which are now lined) and to not use cookware with exposed aluminum in contact with food.
Most of the bad crap out there is avoidable--whether it is endocrine disruptors, corn syrup, pesticides. it cost a little more, but you can feed and clothe yourself in things that have stood the test of time.

jim

zank
04-18-2008, 03:27 PM
That AP article on MesSNBC article is horribly written. The bottles aren't made of BPA as the first paragraph suggests; they are made of Lexan polycarbonate. BPA is an intermediate used in the polymerization of polycarbonate, as the OP's quoted article sort-of explains.

This one is actually near and dear to my heart because I did the molding trials on the purple, red, blue and green formulations when they were still just experimental colors. That was a past life though. Glad I have a bunch of bottles from those trials. They're awesome bottles.

This whole BPA thing is blown so far out of proportion it's ridiculous.

MarleyMon
04-18-2008, 04:04 PM
I thought A was for Alar.

rwsaunders
04-18-2008, 05:23 PM
To paraphrase Samuel Clemens..."There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics."

thwart
04-18-2008, 05:40 PM
global warming trends are the result of bad data. Yep.

... and lead paint and leaded gas are both safe. That industry-supported myth helped this country keep using lead in gas (in abundance) decades beyond when most other developed countries had long since stopped.

... and tobacco has little health risk.

Right.

I'm all for being critical about data, but please mix in a bit of reality as well.

Last time I checked, the WSJ editorial staff was not held in quite the same regard as the vast majority of scientists studying this topic.

Just sayin'

mjb266
04-18-2008, 06:01 PM
As for global warming, did anyone notice that NPR put a 16 year old with a website questioning human influence on global warming on the radio? It was pretty clear that she was a mouthpiece for her "stay at home" step father, but who's going to put an unemployed 40 year old on the radio to talk about global warming.

I played this clip for three sections of a 9th grade science class and each and every class was able to identify the father as the driving force behind the website and the source of bias in that little girl. It was so transparent that even 15 year old kids got it.

DarkStar
04-18-2008, 06:16 PM
Just heard on CBC that the health minister Tony Clement has announce a ban on products containing Bisphenol A

Hardlyrob
04-19-2008, 10:53 AM
I'm all for being critical about data, but please mix in a bit of reality as well.

Last time I checked, the WSJ editorial staff was not held in quite the same regard as the vast majority of scientists studying this topic.

Just sayin'

Easy Thwart - I mis-typed when I said it was an editorial - it was on Friday's WSJ Editorial page, but not by the WSJ editorial staff. The article "Our Climate Numbers Are A Big Mess" was by Patrick Michaels, Senior Fellow of Environmental Studies at the Cato Institute, and Professor of Environmental Studies at U. Virginia. He was raising the point that the uncertainty and revisions in the temperature data are larger than the "trend" the data is supposed to show, as well as making observations of climactic events that are blown out of proportion by the press and Al Gore.

Rob

thwart
04-19-2008, 11:59 AM
You're right... I was a little out of line... :crap:

But this is an area, like lead and tobacco in the past, in which obfuscation and demands for absolute and irrefutable proof are supported and funded heavily by the industries involved.