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View Full Version : Tubular...glue, tape, Belgian, American, Tufo, frufo etc.


Dave B
04-16-2008, 08:48 AM
I have done the searches, here, cyclocross forums etc.

There are so many "prefered" methods that you can darn near over think this problem. I have a couple questions based on what I have found. Please dismiss, respond, set straight stuff I might have wrong. As touchy as some of you are this is not a debate and I am trying to word it that way.

1. Road/Track tires are often thought of differently when gluing. They may nothave as agressive of a side load as a cross tire can. Hence, tape (only) is a better tool in this situation.

2. As cross tires are run at a lower pressure the bond of glue to tire and rim needs to be stronger as the tire goes through more deformation sequences and can roll off of a rim easier.

3. The Belgian method of 1 or 2 layers on the rim, a layer of mastik tape (I did not read anywhere that anyone used Tufo's tape in this method) a layer on the tire and stick it all together is great for many. The lighter the rider in fact, but a heavier it may not be.

4. Tufo tape even the extreme only is not a good method..for big fellas, but for wee little fellas it is ok.

5. I am nuts for not having a shrine to build up tubulars with 80 layers of glue mixed from the grisled spit of a belgian farmer and the semen of a yak high atop the mountains near Everest.


Ok, so now is the answer realyl as simple as try and see what works for you?

Can I just use the tape and glue method or do I need to pak for the Himalyas?

Can I just run clinchers as it seems to be the easiest way to go about it! :rolleyes:


Just asking...I have time on my hands at night.

stevep
04-16-2008, 08:53 AM
mr president.
if you use tts rapid glue method... you could be riding those wheels by mid 2011.... the monk needs to pray over the wheels at least 6 months...after the glue sets up.
the "slow twitch" method take a little longer..figure on late 2013.
they work great though.

i do see more guys using the tape except for extreme use. ( track, high level cross )

Dave B
04-16-2008, 09:32 AM
mr president.
if you use tts rapid glue method... you could be riding those wheels by mid 2011.... the monk needs to pray over the wheels at least 6 months...after the glue sets up.
the "slow twitch" method take a little longer..figure on late 2013.
they work great though.

i do see more guys using the tape except for extreme use. ( track, high level cross )


Sweet just my time line!

Well I don't do much riding at a high level yet, but being a big fella for now, my concern was tire staying on rim. I am making a poor assumption on tire pressure as I will run more until I weigh less. I bught a set of wheels with tires already glued on and many people seem to think I need to reglue them myself so that I can be positive they are done right. Makes perfect sense, but I am trying to learn as much as possible before hand so I can play with knowledge as much as possible before racing starts.

There is a first cross practice this sunday so it will be my first experience (riding) cross.

davids
04-16-2008, 09:55 AM
mr president.
if you use tts rapid glue method... you could be riding those wheels by mid 2011.... the monk needs to pray over the wheels at least 6 months...after the glue sets up.
the "slow twitch" method take a little longer..figure on late 2013.
they work great though.

i do see more guys using the tape except for extreme use. ( track, high level cross )The tape sounded really appealing to me, until I heard something about how difficult it is to remove.

More difficult than spending hours scraping glue from the rims with a (1) putty knive, (2) butter knive, (3) wire brush, and (4) acetone?

Please, I need to know. Someday, maybe.

J.Greene
04-16-2008, 10:06 AM
I am trying to learn as much as possible before hand so I can play with knowledge as much as possible before racing starts.

There is a first cross practice this sunday so it will be my first experience (riding) cross.

awesome that you are giving it a go.

The real lessons will come in racing.

Practice is hard just like the racing, the only difference is you'll not become addicted to the practice.

JG

jimcav
04-16-2008, 10:15 AM
The tape sounded really appealing to me, until I heard something about how difficult it is to remove.

More difficult than spending hours scraping glue from the rims with a (1) putty knive, (2) butter knive, (3) wire brush, and (4) acetone?

Please, I need to know. Someday, maybe.

it came of readily sitting on the couch watching tv with a hair dryer
edit--sorry this was just road wheels, no glue, just tape--my point was it was not hard to remove
jim

Too Tall
04-16-2008, 10:59 AM
Bub, this is easy. I'll paste Mike Zanconoto's method below. This works for me. Mike knows his stuff. You can get supplies from cyclocrossworld and worldclasscycles.
Mike, Stevep owes me .05 for use of nickname last week. Collect royalty from him.
================================================== ========
Gluing Cross tubulars (Mike Zanconoto)

A lot of the basics of gluing a cross tubular is the same as a road tubular. But one particular contrast is tape alone, whether it's Tufo tape or Mastik tape, is a recipe for disaster. Especially in the wet of the Pacific Northwest. The constant mud and cleaning will render the tape useless. A top notch glue job will stand up to the constant exposure to water and mud. The edge bond is most critical but also the most vulnerable to cleaning and mud. The Tufo Extremee tape was mentioned, but the "Extreme" part of that product description means extreme heat. It is supposed to be used in hot weather, not cold and wet.

Mastik One is the best glue for the job. Personally, I use Mastik One glue combined with Mastik tape that you can get from cyclocrossworld.com. My process is pretty simple. First, be sure the base tape has no latex on it. On the FMBs, there has been some latex residue left from the "made by hand" process. I have never seen any latex on a Grifo before, but it can't hurt to double check. Clean the rim surface thoroughly with a solvent that does not leave a residue. Then I follow this procedure.
1. Stretch the tubular for a few days at 80 psi.
2. Remove the tubular for the first layer of glue. Pump up the to tubular a bit to give it some shape and so the base tape rolls out a bit.
3. First layer of glue on the base tape. Most base tapes suck up a lot of glue on the first layer. Let sit overnight.
4. First layer of glue on the rim. be sure to get all of the way to the edge. Let sit overnight.
5. The next day, deflate the tubular and give it a tug. The glue will shrink a bit as it cures.
6. Put the wheel in your stand and put another coat of glue on it. Follow it immediately with the tape. Leave the outer backing paper on the tape for the moment and then push the tape into the glue.
7. Put your second coat of glue on the tire.
8. Remove the backing paper. Cut a little hole in the tape for the valve stem.
9. Mount the tubular. I always mount the tires in the same direction front and rear. Just my preference. Put the valve stem in and then start stretching right from the start. It will get tough at the end. After you get it on, check that the base tape is roughly centered and try to correct any areas that are way off.
10. Pump the tubular up to about 35 psi and then give the wheel a spin. Check to see that the tread is centered. On hand made tubulars, the base tape and tread are not always centered. Try to correct it now.
11. Deflate the tubular and then use your thumb and press down hard on the tread to be sure the base tape makes contact with the rim channel. You want all of that gooey-ness underneath to make contact.
12. Pump uo to about 60 psi and let sit overnight.

** Aquaseal - for sealing sidewalls

Dave B
04-16-2008, 11:30 AM
I saw Zank's stuff in the cross forum on rbr. This is actually what lead me to questions.

I trust him as I have spoken to him often enough. Yet when you get so many opinions it can become a cloudy answer.

Yeah I am stoked to race and learn, but it is one of those things where if I can correct a mistake before I made it then I can focus on other things.

I am guessing my first race will have me worried on how to throw up with out getting any on other riders, picking myself up when I fall and how not to squash my nuggets when the remount happens.

If I can also keep my tires on then I will be stoked. ;)

I am going to practice now with clinchers on a crappy wheelset so if they get jacked I am not to worried. Then as I get better I will use the other set I came up with that already have tubulars on them. So many people said to remove the tires on them even if Julien DaVries put them on (well maybe Ican trust him)

The "Belgian" method of glue and tape makes sense and I think Zank was down with that. yep just reread his methods.

Just need to clean everything to new and redo stuff.

Hey I'll just chalk it up to learning experience.

cheers

chrisroph
04-16-2008, 02:38 PM
clean everything up, buy a can of mastik and some cheap flux brushes

put one thin layer on tires and rims, let dry

put second thin layer on tires and rims, let dry

put about 30 lbs in tires. put third thin layer on rim and mount tire wet. put a bit more air in. straighten tire as much as possible. roll the wheel around putting pressure on the glue bond. Pump to 100, set aside for a day and ride em.

you don't need tape.

justinf
04-16-2008, 03:12 PM
I use the tape, no glue. Road only. Never a problem, including removal.

Of course, I suck at glue, but at this point really don't need the skills. Please don't crucify me my traditional brethren. (or, bring it)

ecl2k
04-16-2008, 04:33 PM
4. Tufo tape even the extreme only is not a good method..for big fellas, but for wee little fellas it is ok.


Who says? Lot of people love the tufo tape.

dirtdigger88
04-16-2008, 05:18 PM
I use the tape, no glue. Road only. Never a problem, including removal.

Of course, I suck at glue, but at this point really don't need the skills. Please don't crucify me my traditional brethren. (or, bring it)

word up brother- I see nothing wrong with the tape-

its all I use

removal is easy ATMO (30% sent)- I leave the little "tab" that is at the beginning of the tufo roll on rather than cut it off- I put it right over the valve hole then fold it back-

when its time to remove the tape I can grab the "tab" with pliers and pull slowly- most everything comes off - what little bit does not wipes off with a rag and goof off

Jason

justinf
04-16-2008, 10:18 PM
I leave the little "tab" that is at the beginning of the tufo roll on rather than cut it off- I put it right over the valve hole then fold it back-

yeah! I do this too and it is snappy. that's pretty cool.

jharsha
04-17-2008, 09:31 PM
What do you folks that use tape only do for a mid-ride tire change? I recently removed 2 tires that were "tape only" on a wheel set that I had purchased from a forumite. One tire left a lot "glue" on the rim bit the other left an almost clean rim. I could have probably gotten home with sticky one but no way with the other (I hope this makes sense!). Do you carry tape with you? What do you prep a spare with --regular tubular glue? Thanks

Dave B
04-17-2008, 09:46 PM
So I checked per a few bits of advice and the tires need to be redone. Tape is readily available at a LBS so I might give it ago. The tires are nice ones, but do i need to clean any of the glue left over on the tire off? If so...how?

I understand and have cleaned rims before, but I have never taken a tire off and hoped to reuse it...I am sure it is more then possible, but I simply do not have the knowledge.

The cat who had them before me also put on the aqua seal sidewall...uh protectant layer. What takes that off besides an extreme amount of patience and good fingernails?

I am sure a new layer is in order.

Any tips will be appreciated.

dirtdigger88
04-17-2008, 09:49 PM
What do you folks that use tape only do for a mid-ride tire change? I recently removed 2 tires that were "tape only" on a wheel set that I had purchased from a forumite. One tire left a lot "glue" on the rim bit the other left an almost clean rim. I could have probably gotten home with sticky one but no way with the other (I hope this makes sense!). Do you carry tape with you? What do you prep a spare with --regular tubular glue? Thanks

Vittoria Pit Stop and a cell phone

Jason