Fixed gear driveline question

[Bruce K]

So, the best bike widow in the world heard me lament to a friend that stevep had a track frame for sale and how it was just my size but I shouldn't/couldn't buy it even if the price WAS really good.

The next thing I know, I hear "Happy Anniversary" and so it will be here soon.

I plan to use as many basement parts as possible and it looks like all I will need is a chainring, chain, wheels and cogs.

I am thinking a 46t chainring with a 16t fixed and 18t free on the flip-flop.

My question is whether this is a reasonable set-up or should I work with a 44t chainring?

From playing around with my single speed, I have found that the 46t gives me more than adequate speed on flats and light rollers but the bigger hills get tough to VERY tough. A 44t chainring spins out fairly regulary but every hill is makable without max effort.

I would really appreciate input from folks who ride fixed a lot.

Thanks,

BK

[Boundgear]

Approved.
Good skid patches. Good ratio. Go forth. Just don't tighten your chain too much.

[Fixed]

bro i think you will like it .. you are good if you tried it out
cheers have fun imho

[Acotts]

Chain
Speaking of tight Chains. I feel like my fixed is making some noises. What is rough about it is that it is nothing obvious...but the drive train is certainly noisier than my gear bike which is whisper quiet.

Its is one of those things that as a rider I notice...but I know that the bike shop folks will just stick the bike on stand, span the crank, see nothing wrong and say it looks fine.

But it is bothering the hell out of me. I thought that the fixed should be whisper quiet as well.

Do you think that this may be from over tightening the chain?

[Fixed]

bro you don't need to have your chain real tight lossen it a little and oil or change the chain usein a 3 /32 or a 1/8 ?
cheers

[gone]

Chain
Speaking of tight Chains. I feel like my fixed is making some noises. What is rough about it is that it is nothing obvious...but the drive train is certainly noisier than my gear bike which is whisper quiet.

Your chainline is off. If it's not straight your drivetrain will make more noise.

Your chain is too tight. Some deflection is good. After tightening the chain (leaving about 3/4" total deflection) take a screwdriver, rotate the crank and try hard to force the chain off the front chainring with the screwdriver. If you can't, you're good to go. Most people have the chains on fixed gears too tight.

The drive train on both of my fixed gears (1/8" components) is whisper quiet.

[Acotts]

Yeah, that is what it feels and sounds like is happening.

Thanks for the input.

-A

[Bruce K]

Hey, where did my thread go? ;)

Thanks guys. I knew I'd get a quick response.

In scrounging parts, I found a 44t non ramped chainring with a couple of bash guards that might look really cool on the FSA Team Issue carbon cranks that I plan to use.

I will hit Sheldon Brown's Gear Calculator chart to see if I can get close to the same ratios.

BK

[stevep]

bruce,
i thk a 44-16 might be a little heavy/
a lot of guys use 42-17 mebbe 16 depending.
might get a 17 also, try them both.

[dookie]

fixed gear is supposed to be rough on longer hills...up *and* down! 46x16 is a fine place to start if you are a fairly strong rider. happens to be the gear i run. when the going gets steep, it's ugly. other than that, it's all purpose.

there's a great gear calculator here. (http://software.bareknucklebrigade.com/rabbit.applet.html)

at ~76 inches, it's roughly equivalent to 39x14 or 53x18. if you've already experimented with staying in these ratios, you know what you're in for...

or do you?

[Dekonick]

Not a hijack, but related question. I am using an eccentric hub on a bike with vertical drops. My previous fixed frames were old school horzontal drops. When using an ENO rear hub, is it necessary to turn it all the way? I presently have it set up so the chain is 'tight' when the ENO hub is pretty much rotated as far as it can go - but I was wondering if it could be used safely without having the hub 'rotated' to the near maximum or if this would cause torque that would possibly cause too loose of a chain - it would be nice to be able to change from a 18 to a 16 and not need a new chain or half link removed...

:)

[Bruce K]

Hey Steve.

Are you back from NY? If so, let me know when a good time would be to exchange $$ for the frame.

I can drive up to your place if it's easier or we can meet somewhere along the way.

I hear the Village in Essex has great fried clams and a congenial host who will be hobbling around for a bit. (Get well quick Old School).

BK

[Fixed]

bro I'm using a 50x 18 and that works fine here
there is nothing better than a fixed gear bike imho
cheers
stevep is the man let him set you up
I would if i' lived up there

[Bruce K]

DeKonick -

My Eno hub is at about 10:30 with the chain at reasonable tension and I haven't had any problems.

When I bought it, the folks at Harris Cyclery (Sheldon Brown's hangout) told me that if I was all the way horizontal, my chain was too long.

The only thing to watch out for is tire / brake bridge clearance.

BK

[Ti Designs]

Acotts, the noise is your knees.

Bruce,

Gearing on a fixed gear depends on where you ride, how you ride and what you expect out of it. The north shore area doesn't have any large hills, so you need worry less about the hills - that's the where. How you ride is something only you can answer. Take a ride on your geared bike and pay attention to the gears you use and the cadence which starts to get uncomfortable - that's the how. What you expect out of it is also up to you, but I'm guessing you find the fixed gear is more enjoyable for some rides and less for others. If you find yourself riding with others on fixed gears, try to get the gears all in the same ball park and you'll be happy. If you find yourself riding with people on geared bikes there's two options. Gear for what you can handle on the flats and attack going up hill to take it out of them for the down hill, or overgear the bike and hold onto their seatposts when you hit a hill.

[mschol17]

It comes down to whether you want to be uncomfortable on the downhill or the uphill. I have a 42-16, which is fine for the shorter but steeper DC area hills, but I could probably go with a taller gear and just really grind up the hills.

[Dekonick]

DeKonick -

My Eno hub is at about 10:30 with the chain at reasonable tension and I haven't had any problems.

When I bought it, the folks at Harris Cyclery (Sheldon Brown's hangout) told me that if I was all the way horizontal, my chain was too long.

The only thing to watch out for is tire / brake bridge clearance.

BK

Thanks for the info! Guess my chain is too long then...

[dookie]

My Eno hub is at about 10:30 with the chain at reasonable tension and I haven't had any problems.

+1.

the eno on my XC SS is nowhere near its limits, is rock solid, and sees a *lot* more torque than a road bike probably would.

[Joel]

Back on the gear ratio question. I've been happily running a 46x18 fixed on rolling hills since mid-December. Since I'm not a big gear pusher that ratio has worked out really quite well.

Joel

[Russell]

I agree with Steve. I went from a 16 to a 17 and it made a big difference on those early morning climbs to the train station.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . on my fixie makes a lot of noise while coasting. Would that be the chain, since when it's coasting the chin isn't even moving?

Also, is there any kind of doodad or thingamabob I can buy to put in the rear dropouts that will let me put the wheel on and get a pre-set tension every time? I'm pretty sure there is such a thing--I'm pretty sure I've seen one. but I have no idea what it's called or where I could get it. It was a pair of little screw things that went in the dropouts.

Thanks, Bruce . . . You're such aneasy hijack! :rolleyes: :D

BBD

[justinf]

My freewheel . . . on my fixie (snip)

umm, huh? ;)

Bruce, as previously stated, just find what makes you comfy. I run a 48x16 in Charlotte pretty well, but it hurts in the mountains. . .

[gone]

. . . on my fixie makes a lot of noise while coasting. Would that be the chain, since when it's coasting the chin isn't even moving?


???

Also, is there any kind of doodad or thingamabob I can buy to put in the rear dropouts that will let me put the wheel on and get a pre-set tension every time? I'm pretty sure there is such a thing--I'm pretty sure I've seen one. but I have no idea what it's called or where I could get it. It was a pair of little screw things that went in the dropouts.
BBD
You mean a chain tensioner (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=16797)?

[mosca]

My approach to fixed gearing is to choose the lowest ratio that doesn't drive me crazy spinning out on the flats, which in my case is a 48-18. I'm not in the fixed-as-training camp though, just like to cruise around trying to look cool and recapture my lost youth...

Also, fixed-free flip flops are definitely un-cool - go fully fixed! :D

[dave1215]

i am running 48x18 (about 70") on my fixed gear which works well once i get up to cruising speed. it does tend to be a bit big for steep grades but i wouldn't want smaller gearing since i take it out mostly for longer ride thrills rather than shorter ride errands.

i hope that makes sense - if not, just call me fred.

;)

[Bruce K]

Dave;

I think what you are asking about is a Tug Nut (if you have horizontal drop outs).

Otherwise, put more tension on your Eno or tighten your chain tensioner. :D

BK

[nobrakes]

My wife uses a 44X17 and doesn't complain. I'm stuck with a 39X15 just because-We have some good rollers here. I like to roll along 20 mph or so, spinning minimum about 80 rpm as I recollect. 20 mph is fine because of the cold, any faster just makes me so cold from wind-chill the ride isn't enjoyable, any slower, and it feels like I'm going nowhere. This all helps with accident weakened right leg get stronger. I used to climb with 44X17, was do-able, but a leg breaker. Going down was an on the brakes the whole time thing. Yes, I use brakes, in spite of the name.

[Brian Smith]

If you are here asking about gear ratios, then you need to be out of the 70s, at least as far as gear inches goes.
Take it to the low 60s, or even high 50s, if you're going fixed for a reason.
If you don't care what you're doing and this is just going to sit in your garage anyway, then it doesn't matter, use what is in your basement/garage. If you want the fixed gear riding to teach you something, then let it - go 50s.
It isn't about choosing what feels comfortable. It's about getting comfortable with what is best for you. If that's unpalatble, they do make these multigear bikes that offer an increased range of comfort. Those of you that ride fixed for a reason know what I'm talkin' about.

[Bruce K]

Thanks Brian, I love you too. :crap:

Having purchased several of those Saratoga bred steeds I would have hoped for a little more love than tough love. ;)

This bike certainly won't just sit and it might go through a few changes over time but the starting point is trying to use up as much left over bits as I can.

BK

[rustychisel]

1. Shoot for a ratio which approximates your JRA flat cadence. Pushing hard to be the big man is dumb. For me 42 x16 is good. 40 x 15 is good.

2. Noisy drivetrain: 3/32 is less grinchy than 1/8 but not always. Use quality components, check your chain wear, and ensure the chainline is as good as you can get it. Then adjust your chain tension, which people often have too high. Oh, and give it a couple of hundred miles to settle in, especially a new chain on an older cog.

3. Chain tugs (is the generic name). There are numerous available, such as Tug Nuts. Why bother, unless you have a specific need (ie titanium dropouts allowing wheel slip, for example).

[regularguy412]

1. Shoot for a ratio which approximates your JRA flat cadence. Pushing hard to be the big man is dumb. For me 42 x16 is good. 40 x 15 is good.

<snipped>.

A 42 x 16 is what I use, as well. Seems just about right for my riding style and the terrain around here. I also chose to use the same 172.5 mm length crank on my fixie as I normally run on my geared bikes. If you are using something substantially shorter, you could get away with running a smaller inch gear. The 42 x 16 yields about 20 mph @ 100 rpm, which is comfortable for me.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Brian Smith]

Thanks Brian, I love you too. :crap:

Having purchased several of those Saratoga bred steeds I would have hoped for a little more love than tough love. ;)

This bike certainly won't just sit and it might go through a few changes over time but the starting point is trying to use up as much left over bits as I can.

BK

Sorry man, you know how people can seem grumpy online. I do that in spades.
Just go low. Shorter cranks, too.
I'm running a 42/15 out of stupidity and an average ride distance of under 5 miles on it, though 40 is fine, too.
I don't have a record of who here owns what, but I don't give preferential grumpiness to those who don't have Serottas, don't worry about that part. :)

[Bruce K]

Brian;

It sure didn't look stupid when you kicked almost everyone's butt going up that monster hill on the group ride at the Open House.

The memory of you flying back down with your feet off the pedals at about 40mph was a sight to be hold.

That said, I take your fixed advice seriously and truly wasn't offended.

BTW, are you still riding that prototype Ottrott? That is one cool bike.

BK

[ericspin]

My $.02 on crank length. I ride 175's on my coastie but really dig the 165's on my fixed. Sugino 75 messenger cranks. Running 47x18 and it works fine on my Florida hills.......errr, bumps.

[Fixed]

My $.02 on crank length. I ride 175's on my coastie but really dig the 165's on my fixed. Sugino 75 messenger cranks. Running 47x18 and it works fine on my Florida hills.......errr, bumps.
perfect imho
cheers

[Ti Designs]

My $.02 on crank length. I ride 175's on my coastie but really dig the 165's on my fixed. Sugino 75 messenger cranks. Running 47x18 and it works fine on my Florida hills.......errr, bumps.


I run 170's on my road bike, my fixed gear, my track bike, my mountain bike, my tandem and my unicycle. Why gain a super fast spin on the fixed gear without being able to use it on the road?

As for gearing, I run lower than most. I'm turning a 42x18 now and still riding with groups on geared bikes. By comparison, my low gear on the road bike is a 44x21 - Seems high, but I spend half the year on my fixed gear and going up isn't the problem. As for going down, my feet stay on the pedals and I stay in contact as much as possible. Once in a while my shorts catch on fire, or I pray that my legs fly off at the hip sockets before my heart explodes, but that's the training advantage of the fixed gear.


I must be doing something all wrong...

[ericspin]

Why gain a super fast spin on the fixed gear without being able to use it on the road?



Now, what do you mean by saying this? For me, the pedalling cadence is so different riding the fixed compared to the coastie anyway. My choice, originally, had more to do with cornering clearance and less about spin cadence.

Are you saying that you think if I run 165's on the fixed I should run 165's on everything?

Tell me more.

Eric

[Fixed]

your cool eric with the 165 's leg speed is leg speed
cheers imho

[ericspin]

your cool eric with the 165 's leg speed is leg speed
cheers imho


Damnit man, look at your post count. Over 10,000.....whew.
Yeah you are right about leg speed. It is what it is.

Out of curiousity, do you run the same size crank on all bikes?

[Fixed]

Damnit man, look at your post count. Over 10,000.....whew.
Yeah you are right about leg speed. It is what it is.

Out of curiousity, do you run the same size crank on all bikes?
no but after a mile or so I can't tell the diff.
cheers X 10000 i really don't talk much in real life

[sg8357]

[snip]As for gearing, I run lower than most. I'm turning a 42x18 now and still riding with groups on geared bikes. [snip]
I must be doing something all wrong...


Ye olde English clubmen suggested a 65 inch gear,
so you are right on the old standard. Old roads in England
tend to go straight up the hill. Use of the two foot gear
was normal, nobody razzed you for it.

Scott G.
42x17 on the Magnificent Crescent.

[benb]

Don't go too tight on the chain but too loose is much, MUCH worse then too tight...

I got careless one winter and hadn't checked the chain in a couple weeks.. it got a little too loose and I had the chain jump off going down a hill (in arlington, MA actually) when I hit a pothole. The chain wrapped around the hub, locked up the rear wheel.. rode it down from ~25mph or so with a locked wheel.. it was exciting. I got a lot of props for the save from the people I was riding with.

I do not EVER want to get those Props again! Not to mention it was really, really hard to pry that chain out of the hub, get the wheel apart, and get everything back together to ride home. (It was a BMX chain, amazingly it didn't explode) It took a healthy gouge out of the chainstay though. :(

I'm on the "low gear" side too.. spin like a maniac.. if you can't deal with it down the big hills just make sure your brakes are good and use the brake to keep your legs from ripping off if you go down too big of a grade.

[Oirad]

I run 170's on my road bike, my fixed gear, my track bike, my mountain bike, my tandem and my unicycle. Why gain a super fast spin on the fixed gear without being able to use it on the road?

As for gearing, I run lower than most. I'm turning a 42x18 now and still riding with groups on geared bikes. By comparison, my low gear on the road bike is a 44x21 - Seems high, but I spend half the year on my fixed gear and going up isn't the problem. As for going down, my feet stay on the pedals and I stay in contact as much as possible. Once in a while my shorts catch on fire, or I pray that my legs fly off at the hip sockets before my heart explodes, but that's the training advantage of the fixed gear.


I must be doing something all wrong...

Sounds like you're doing everything right!!

I only ride fixed gear, the way I only run on my own two legs, I use a 44 x 17 on the road fix and a 36 x 16 on mtb fix (which I also use as an urban road bike). You ride 90-110 rpm on a 42 (or 44) x 17 you're riding at a comfortable, swift travelling speed. Downhills you learn to spin and control and no problems on the uphills. I run 170 cranks (I'm a miserable 5'7"), possibly could go lower (167.5?), but it works for me.

Straight chainline is impt. of course, but a slightly loose chain is maybe even more important. Ain't never had a chain pop off in 20 yrs of fixed gear riding, btw. Change the chain sooner than later, unlike your road bike, if you ride the fixed a lot.

I have the Eno eccentric hub on the old Fat Chance fixed. And I concur with those who've said that the "tensioner" doesn't have to be perfectly vertical. That is the miracle of the Eno hub, you can easily fine tune chain tension on vert. dropouts.

Also, the nice thing about spinning is that you get good at it. Although I'm getting stronger lately, because of more riding and dynamic lifts in the gym, I almost want to spin even more, i.e., going from a 44 x 17 to 44 x 18, rather than putting a 16 on. I dunno, maybe it's just old age?

On another note, perhaps a little OT, anybody running brakeless?

-- Oirad

[Fixed]

Sounds like you're doing everything right!!

I only ride fixed gear, the way I only run on my own two legs, I use a 44 x 17 on the road fix and a 36 x 16 on mtb fix (which I also use as an urban road bike). You ride 90-110 rpm on a 42 (or 44) x 17 you're riding at a comfortable, swift travelling speed. Downhills you learn to spin and control and no problems on the uphills. I run 170 cranks (I'm a miserable 5'7"), possibly could go lower (167.5?), but it works for me.

Straight chainline is impt. of course, but a slightly loose chain is maybe even more important. Ain't never had a chain pop off in 20 yrs of fixed gear riding, btw. Change the chain sooner than later, unlike your road bike, if you ride the fixed a lot.

I have the Eno eccentric hub on the old Fat Chance fixed. And I concur with those who've said that the "tensioner" doesn't have to be perfectly vertical. That is the miracle of the Eno hub, you can easily fine tune chain tension on vert. dropouts.

Also, the nice thing about spinning is that you get good at it. Although I'm getting stronger lately, because of more riding and dynamic lifts in the gym, I almost want to spin even more, i.e., going from a 44 x 17 to 44 x 18, rather than putting a 16 on. I dunno, maybe it's just old age?

On another note, perhaps a little OT, anybody running brakeless?

-- Oirad
cool ...fixed gear mt biking rocks
cheers imho
ft brake here it gets me into group rides

[Gunther]

New poster to this forum. Off-and-on lurker for a while.
I'll add $0.02 on the OP gearing question.
I rode a 46x16 for a while in rolling terrain of central Penna. Great on the flats and downhills, a little tough on some of the local uphills. Swapped for a 17T and that made a huge difference. Still have to work to climb, but I'm not spinning at 160 every time the road tilts down.

I made this swap at the beginning of winter when I seem to slow down anyway. Planning to put the 16T back on soon just to see how it feels now that warm weather "strength" is returning.

I use 170 crankarms on the FG compared to 172.5 on my geared bike.

Gunther

[rustychisel]

I rode a 46x16 for a while ... Swapped for a 17T and that made a huge difference. ... but I'm not spinning at 160 every time the road tilts down.


Gunther

Sorry, need to rethink this bit. Are you happier spinning at 185 or is something out of square with your suggestion?

[Gunther]

I'm most comfortable spinning along around 90. My average cadence on a normal ride is in the mid-70s. I routinely spin up near 150 on one of my regular loops, but that is for short intervals and my legs usually protest.
I did notice that when I swapped from the 16 to the 17, my average speed dropped a bit. It seems I just worked harder to keep the spin in a comfortable range. I suspect I'd slow even further if I used an 18.

GtB

[Bruce K]

First, thanks for all the opinions and information.

I put the finishing touches on the bike tonight andit would be ready to go except the head stripped out of one of the Problem Solver Backstops that hold the rear brake cable.

It will be probably Monday before I can try to find a replacement locally or else have to order another one.

GRRRRRRR.

I will post pictures tomorrow afternoon or Monday.

It came out really nice. Everything is black except the seatpost (silver), the freehub (silver and yes, it's a flip-flop) bar tape (Fizik blue to match my other bikes), and the chain (gold).

Thanks again to Stevep for a great deal on the frame and fork.

BK

[Fixed]

Problem Solver become Problem maker
sorry to hear good luck
cheers

[Bruce K]

This morning in a fit of early riser energy I removed the Problem Solver Backstops and using a double ended cable ferrule went with a "one piece" rear brake housing. Secured it with a couple of zip ties and it's good to go.

Maiden voyage in the next day or two.

Pictures in the Custom Gallery.

BK