Will Serotta Build A More Affordable Carbon Road Bike?

[Sandy]

Serotta owns a carbon production facility producing tubing, forks, rear stays, and lugs (to be machined). There exists the Serotta Mangement Team, "..charged with elevating the Serotta experience.." The custom carbon MeiVici, with its SE and GS models, is the flagship road Serotta offering, but clearly too expensive for most potential Serotta owners. There is the non-custom HSG carbon, but that is an aggressively designed bike, offered built with a minimum price of $6400. The non-custom Fierte is available only in carbon/ti or steel.

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation and production of carbon framesets. A reasonable natural progression would be a non-custom carbon model that is more affordable than what Serotta produces now- perhaps a carbon Fierte SE model and a carbon Fierte GS model, with the GS being a price point model that would make Serotta carbon bikes more appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers. Affordable Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the floor at the local Serotta dealer for immediate purchase would be most attractive.

I realize reasons why Serotta may not produce the bikes as mentioned above, but if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base, the above is most reasonable and natural.

What do you think about the possibility?


Sarbon Sandy

[J.Greene]

This will be a provacative and interesting thread.


JG

[swoop]

personal opinion:
no.

there are too many companies making too many mass produced frames overseas at a great price point to dabble in that end of the market. look and time are hard to beat as are many others. even parkpre makes a great carbon frame that would be hard to beat on cost (if it fits).

the point is to get bike shop employees motivated to do the hand holding and to invest time in developing potential serotta customers while serotta maximizes efficiency in their own production process while again paying off the investment in all the tooling. the question is can they lower their production costs on the current bike..

what doesn't help the brand is.. and i don't mean to be horrible here... the guy that posted his gorgeous ottrott in the mirror thread... seeing guys spend all that money on a frame that isn't fitted properly... it marginalizes the brand and pushes people away from custom fit system bike companies like serotta and seven....

with something like 40 or more employees and some under motivated retailers and a high tooling expense.... its just the nature of this thing that its got to be a dance to run it. i'm sure ben and comapny have been flirting with both good and bad times from day one.

the kids are alright. no?

(take this all with a grain. i hate that its cached.. its just this idiot's opinion).

you're only as good as your market. we bike buyers don't always understand what we ride and why its good or bad. too much perceived value comes from paint or from lifting the bike in the shop. serottas burden is informing and activating the sales team and the store managers while at the same time demanding and raising the curiosity of the bike buying public. the bike will never be better than they person's ability to differentiate what is good about it if they don't know.

[weiwentg]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=5050&highlight=tuna+fish+sandwich

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10391&highlight=tuna+fish+sandwich

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10463&highlight=tuna+fish+sandwich

[zap]

snipped

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation ....

Please explain.

[Fat Robert]

i don't think serotta is about "affordable"

$4,275+ carbon frames are where they're at -- they compete with other boutique builders. competing with trek, giant, specialized, etc., just messes up their very clear market niche.

you pay for the CC tubes, the customization, the fit cycle bit. for a section of the buying public, this is what makes serotta a very competitive option.

[Sandy]

I hope that if anyone looks at those tuna sandwich threads they realize that my thread about the Fierte was done admiring how much value there is in the Fierte compared to most any road bike in Serotta's line. I think that the Coeur D' Acier and the Fierte are Serotta's best values for sure.


Sandy

[taylorj]

Define affordable? It is difficult to define value for folks. I see people spend 5-6K on off-the-shelf bikes all day long. A Serotta (or Seven, IF,whatever), whether made for stock or made for you is still handcrafted in the good old USA. Anytime I can support a made in America (whether it is made for me or not) company, I will.

I always wondered why someone would spend 5-6K on a bike that was designed with the likes of a great champion in mind, when they could spend the same amount on a bike that was made for them. And I sold both. And never questioned or talked someone out of anything. But if the customer asked me...9 times out of 10, they walked away with a Seven or an IF (we didn't sell Serotta), and felt like they got their money's worth everytime.

I would love to see a Serotta Carbon made bike which could be sold to a greater number of riders. But they would need to market it differently so that there was a reason to sell it right off the floor. I think that is where the bigger problem is.

[rnhood]

I have wondered about this also and, would like to see a competitively priced Serotta carbon bike. I think the issue facing Serotta is that, if they decided to build one then consistent with their pedigree it would be of high quality. The problem here is that it would take sales away from their higher profit existing models.

I also think the point about Serotta focusing on the shop to do the selling and hand holding is a good one. An off the shelf spec bike tends to defocus this strategy and the perceived "special" nature of the bike.

[Fat Robert]

a $7,000 custom 20cm headtube says "just for you"

a $2,000 stock 20cm headtube says "comfort bike"

[swoop]

also... as bike lovers we've got to get over the assumption that:
a) all carbon is good carbon
b) carbon is better than (other materials)
c) high end bikes must be carbon to be advanced

you can make the best bike in the world in any material.

[Sandy]

i don't think serotta is about "affordable"

$4,275+ carbon frames are where they're at -- they compete with other boutique builders. competing with trek, giant, specialized, etc., just messes up their very clear market niche.

you pay for the CC tubes, the customization, the fit cycle bit. for a section of the buying public, this is what makes serotta a very competitive option.

I totally agree. The Serotta niche does not include cheaper carbon bikes, for sure. However, I have seen a significant number of Serotta cyclists, and other than at Saratoga Springs, I have never seen a single one on a MeiVici. Clearly Meivicis are sold. Go into a bike shop and you will see carbon bikes. That is what is being sold and sought by potential purchasers. Carbon is the name of the game now in bicycle materials.

Serotta does have its own carbon facility and can produce tubing at a more reasonable pricing than some of its competitors pay I would think. Certainly not over seas production pricing.

Maybe Serotta wants to maintains its niche precisely like it exists. Maybe they will want to modify and expand it some. That is why I brought up what I did. As of now, what I suggest does not fit its niche. You are absoutely correct.


Sandy

[swoop]

I totally agree. The Serotta niche does not include cheaper carbon bikes, for sure. However, I have seen a significant number of Serotta cyclists, and other than at Saratoga Springs, I have never seen a single one on a MeiVici. Clearly Meivicis are sole. Go into a bike shop and you will see carbon bikes. That is what is being sold and sought by potential purchasers. Carbon is the name of the game now in bicycle materials.

Serotta does have its own carbon facility and can produce tubing at a more reasonable pricing than some of its competitors pay I would think.


Sandy

have you seen edge composites pricelist?

[JohnS]

All I know is that with the way the prices have jumped, I never would be able to afford today the Serotta that I bought in 2000.

[Sandy]

also... as bike lovers we've got to get over the assumption that:
a) all carbon is good carbon
b) carbon is better than (other materials)
c) high end bikes must be carbon to be advanced

you can make the best bike in the world in any material.

Absolutely correct. But, if you fill a shop up today with steel road bikes and fill up a shop next door with carbon road bikes, which do you think would do the greater portion of the business, all else equal? I bought a CDA in all steel and love it thus far. Great bike. But steel is not what potential buyers are purchasing.

Steel Serotta Sandy

[Sandy]

have you seen edge composites pricelist?

No. But I will.


Sandy

[taylorj]

All I know is that with the way the prices have jumped, I never would be able to afford today the Serotta that I bought in 2000.

And the beauty is that the craftsmanship and details that went into your frame in 2000 will be a beautiful thing to behold today and 10+ years from today! Prices are jumping jumping jumping. It is scary!

[weiwentg]

I hope that if anyone looks at those tuna sandwich threads they realize that my thread about the Fierte was done admiring how much value there is in the Fierte compared to most any road bike in Serotta's line. I think that the Coeur D' Acier and the Fierte are Serotta's best values for sure.


Sandy

I really did enjoy the tuna fish sandwich metaphor, btw.

right there, you may have answered your own question. the Fierte and CDA are Serotta's value bikes. I don't know their business model, perhaps it's not worth their time to source carbon tubes cheap enough to make a cheaper carbon frame. or perhaps they couldn't even if they tried - maybe you need to do monocoques in Trek- or Giant-like volumes to get the frames cheap enough.

[J.Greene]

Sandy,

I think it's about vision and mission. Currently, serotta is not thinkning that direction, and to do so would be a visionary change.

as a side note...If the goal is to just fill a price point, why not just email Asia some specs and send wire trf. It's a slippery slope.

JG

[Fixed]

bro i saw a serotta tt bike at a restauant the other day i thought it was a cervelo till i got up close it was red on a red mercedes hooked onto a truck bike rack the kind that beats your bike to death ..I heard there was a tri that day
cheers

[swoop]

No. But I will.


Sandy


do you know what major italian manufacturers of race bikes use a picture of carbon on the top layer of their bikes rather than actual carbon?

(its rhetorical.. i'm not answering but hey, its cheaper and it looks perfectly carbon!). you want some of that on your ride? knocks the cost down a shade... fiberglass is cheaper...

[Sandy]

do you know what major italian manufacturers of race bikes use a pantograph of carbon on the top layer of their bikes rather than actual carbon?

(its rhetorical.. i'm not answering but hey, its cheaper and it looks perfectly carbon!). you want some of that on your ride? knocks the cost down a shade... fiberglass is cheaper...

Heck, I have a better solution- Make the tubes hollow instead of the solid tubes used today! :rolleyes: :)


Simple Sandy

[bfd]

Define affordable? It is difficult to define value for folks. I see people spend 5-6K on off-the-shelf bikes all day long. A Serotta (or Seven, IF,whatever), whether made for stock or made for you is still handcrafted in the good old USA. Anytime I can support a made in America (whether it is made for me or not) company, I will.

I agree, what is "affordable?" If you want a carbon fiber frame for *under $2,000*, then there are at least three and maybe four U.S. builders available to you. Calfee Luna, Aegis Victory, Kestrel Talon and I believe one of the Parlees (Z2 or Z3/4?) might fit your needs.

Can Serotta do it? I'm sure of it. The question is whether there is a market for it that allows them to make money.

[Pete Serotta]

Sandy, I do not know but will discuss with the gang at SEROTTA> PETE


Serotta owns a carbon production facility producing tubing, forks, rear stays, and lugs (to be machined). There exists the Serotta Mangement Team, "..charged with elevating the Serotta experience.." The custom carbon MeiVici, with its SE and GS models, is the flagship road Serotta offering, but clearly too expensive for most potential Serotta owners. There is the non-custom HSG carbon, but that is an aggressively designed bike, offered built with a minimum price of $6400. The non-custom Fierte is available only in carbon/ti or steel.

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation and production of carbon framesets. A reasonable natural progression would be a non-custom carbon model that is more affordable than what Serotta produces now- perhaps a carbon Fierte SE model and a carbon Fierte GS model, with the GS being a price point model that would make Serotta carbon bikes more appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers. Affordable Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the floor at the local Serotta dealer for immediate purchase would be most attractive.

I realize reasons why Serotta may not produce the bikes as mentioned above, but if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base, the above is most reasonable and natural.

What do you think about the possibility?


Sarbon Sandy

[SPOKE]

i don't know what Serotta is planing for the near or far term regarding their product offering but i do know that you can get an HSG IT built with DA, Ritchey WCS bar, stem, Seatpost, SLR saddle, Ksyirum ES wheels for under $6k if you really work the dealer. i realize that this is not an all carbon frame and is a bit low in the front for some of us (me included).
as for an all carbon frame i really wish they'd loose the GS/SE designations. the SE/GS did nothing but de-value the the top level product in IMO! i want them to go back to what they really do best........TOP SHELF CUSTOM!!!! design the bike for the rider and then no limits on color/decal choices. if you want all carbon, great. all TI, great. want carbon & Ti, great. want steel & carbon, great. want all steel TIG'd, lugged, fillet brazed, great. want the new stainless stuff, great! i know that offering all this most likely isn't realistic for Serotta but custom is custom and Serotta is the one company that has the skills in-house to do all of this and do it extremely well. :)

[moondog-sparky]

swoop - if possible, can you direct me to the ottrott / mirror image you refer to above?

this "mis-fitting" of high-end custom frames is a pet peeve of mine. and before i get blasted by the forum community, i am not a complete tool - i certainly understand the individual needs of customers based on their personal fitness, age, flexibility, etc. hence the wacky geometries. BUT THEY STILL MAKE FOR VERY UGLY BIKES! and as such, this definitely hurts the brand image. i have seen more mis-fit sevens, serottas, IF's than i can shake a stick at. the only consistently "fit" bikes i see by makers are Richard Sachs (100% correct every time i see one), vanilla, and parlee (although i do question some of the actual front-center / trail dimensions he comes up with). although to be fair, many of the boutique steel builders get it right, at least aesthetically, damn near most of the time.

for example: i had the opportunity to view a meivici GS here in an LBS as i am considering purchasing this bike later this summer. and it was totally whack!! 48cm seat tube, 50cm top tube, about 5 inches of spacers leading up to a 8 stem which was inverted. and deep-dish zipp wheels. OK - yup, it's the guys money and he can buy what he wants. and serotta wants to sell bikes, so they build it. i get it. but that is 100% unnecessary from a purely riding standpoint. and the store manager had the gall to go into the whole "custom fit" tale and expound on the virtues of it, and how these carefully selected tubes will make him a better rider. again, i get it (sort of). what i tried to ask the manager was did anyone ever take a minute and tell this guy a $1.5K trek pilot was purpose built for him? did anyone really take a minute and say, hey dude, there are better ways to solve your fit issue? these goofy looking bikes, especially on the highest-end marques of a brand, do nothing to help move product to the cycling community at large, and more specifically, to the racer segment - which would likely have the biggest impact on increasing sales. i'm not saying they should stop making them, but gee whiz, do any of the sales people ever try to provide a better approach to solving this fit issue than scream out, "get custom! ya gotta have custom!"

for all of their mass-produced products, it is hard to deny that the sizes/geometries offered by Time, Look, Colnago and others are spot-on for 99% of the people who truly ride bikes. and yep, i'm talking about the "racer-types" even though that will offend some. not necessarily actual racers mind you, but people who will well and truly benefit from the technology in fast group-rides, etc. i mean, these guys have been fitting thousands of pros on their bikes for decades. they have clearly seen nearly every body type imaginable and they've created a range of bikes that address the needs / fit issues of most of the buying public - if you're gonna really ride that bike hard and fast.

i'm not against custom in the least and i think everyone should buy what they DESIRE, not what they NEED. i do get the difference. but it still means there are alot of fugly bikes out there from the high-end boutique shops that don't paint the best brand image.

[catulle]

I think it is tough to sell an intangible and uncertain thing such as fit and make everybody happy. Serotta = custom = fit = Achilles heel. This has been only my personal experience, and I share it with the best of intentions.

[shinomaster]

They should have Cannondale make them aluminum frames with Serotta geometry. I'd buy one.

[Fat Robert]

i'm going to fire off a rant here. as a rant, it is the product of an unstable mind, and not entirely trustworthy. or maybe right on the mark.

the problem is the fit system. the fit system is a great marketing tool, but makes for strange bikes like the above one, or like my CSI. works like this: shop guy just back from fit school tells client that no stock bike will truly "work," that your cleats need to be here, your knee needs to be here, you need this much elbow bend, you can get this position on a stock bike, so you need a bike just for you and we can sell you one and it works like this hop on the sie cycle. your unique body needs a unique geometry.

not.

maybe for a handful. for the rest, its an issue of reality vs. perception. perception: I can't fit on this c-50 extreme power, so I must need a custom meivici. reality: I need a trek pilot. or maybe a madone in the old guy geo.

how many fit guys in their 20s or 30s buy $7,000 carbon frames? not many. the guys who decide that they need the $5,000+ frame are, more often than not, guys who have no business riding a racing bike. what they need is a really really nice sport-touring bike, which they used to have in the old days, just ask dbrk, and you can still get now if you don't insist on your bike having the vaguest of visual similarities to a racing bike and if you can get over the fact that you don't need zipp 404s to go 17mph.

serotta isn't going for the stock bike demo. no need for affordable frames. sell the high-zoot customer that he or she can't possibly get a bike that "works" without a custom geo, then show them the catalogue....

serotta can still make a killer stock geo bike and I'd love an HSG or maybe just a CDA in the stock 57. all this "you need custom" stuff is hooey.

rant over.

[shinomaster]

Are you saying that the size 54cm frame with the 60cm top tube Sylvester wanted to set me up on wouldn't work? I was gonna race cross on it.

[taylorj]

All of this "fit talk" is very interesting. Fitting someone with their contact points being in the right place is not rocket science. But really this is only one element of bike fit. As a small rider (5'2") with not typical women's geometry (long torso and arms, and short inseam), it is not necessarily a challenge in this day and age to find a bike that I can "fit" on, even with my funky body type. But I am probably going to be stuck with a very agile handling bike that is over-engineered (heavier??) than it needs to be.

It's interesting to me what people think of when you say "custom" or "fit". Most people can make a bike work and fit so you are comfortable. But having that bike ride and handle (and if we're talking custom...) and be asethetically pleasing to the individual is all included in what you sign up for with a Seven, Serotta, IF, etc. And you pay for that. And that is a beautiful thing.

So how do you buy a Sach's anyway? Is it direct or do you go to a bike shop?

[swoop]

So how do you buy a Sach's anyway? Is it direct or do you go to a bike shop?


i'm told it involves bringing him a small piece of shrubbery. not too big, mind you. http://lorien.sdsu.edu/~carroll/shrub.html

[e-RICHIE]

All of this "fit talk" is very interesting. Fitting someone with their contact points being in the right place is not rocket science. But really this is only one element of bike fit. As a small rider (5'2") with not typical women's geometry (long torso and arms, and short inseam), it is not necessarily a challenge in this day and age to find a bike that I can "fit" on, even with my funky body type. But I am probably going to be stuck with a very agile handling bike that is over-engineered (heavier??) than it needs to be.

It's interesting to me what people think of when you say "custom" or "fit". Most people can make a bike work and fit so you are comfortable. But having that bike ride and handle (and if we're talking custom...) and be asethetically pleasing to the individual is all included in what you sign up for with a Seven, Serotta, IF, etc. And you pay for that. And that is a beautiful thing.

So how do you buy a Sach's anyway? Is it direct or do you go to a bike shop?
i sell through the message board atmo.
hey - just kidding.


http://www.marcgordon.net/Being%20there1.jpg

[taylorj]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]i sell through the message board atmo.
hey - just kidding.

QUOTE]

Is it really 6 years? I should put my order in last year when I was living in H2O-town last year!

[e-RICHIE]

i sell through the message board atmo.
hey - just kidding.

Is it really 6 years? I should put my order in last year when I was living in H2O-town last year!
i'm off duty atmo.

[93legendti]

Serotta owns a carbon production facility producing tubing, forks, rear stays, and lugs (to be machined). There exists the Serotta Mangement Team, "..charged with elevating the Serotta experience.." The custom carbon MeiVici, with its SE and GS models, is the flagship road Serotta offering, but clearly too expensive for most potential Serotta owners. There is the non-custom HSG carbon, but that is an aggressively designed bike, offered built with a minimum price of $6400. The non-custom Fierte is available only in carbon/ti or steel.

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation and production of carbon framesets. A reasonable natural progression would be a non-custom carbon model that is more affordable than what Serotta produces now- perhaps a carbon Fierte SE model and a carbon Fierte GS model, with the GS being a price point model that would make Serotta carbon bikes more appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers. Affordable Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the floor at the local Serotta dealer for immediate purchase would be most attractive.

I realize reasons why Serotta may not produce the bikes as mentioned above, but if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base, the above is most reasonable and natural.

What do you think about the possibility?


Sarbon Sandy
Sandy, would you buy an all carbon Fierte? I wouldn't. But, I don't like all carbon bikes.

[Dan Le foot]

Serotta owns a carbon production facility producing tubing, forks, rear stays, and lugs (to be machined). There exists the Serotta Mangement Team, "..charged with elevating the Serotta experience.." The custom carbon MeiVici, with its SE and GS models, is the flagship road Serotta offering, but clearly too expensive for most potential Serotta owners. There is the non-custom HSG carbon, but that is an aggressively designed bike, offered built with a minimum price of $6400. The non-custom Fierte is available only in carbon/ti or steel.

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation and production of carbon framesets. A reasonable natural progression would be a non-custom carbon model that is more affordable than what Serotta produces now- perhaps a carbon Fierte SE model and a carbon Fierte GS model, with the GS being a price point model that would make Serotta carbon bikes more appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers. Affordable Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the floor at the local Serotta dealer for immediate purchase would be most attractive.

I realize reasons why Serotta may not produce the bikes as mentioned above, but if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base, the above is most reasonable and natural.

What do you think about the possibility?


Sarbon Sandy

I'm betting they will, Sandy. You should be part of the marketing team. Dollars to donuts that's what they will come up with after looking very closely at the market.
What's selling now is just about anything that is CF in the mid to high mid price points.. Cevelo, Colnago, Time Look, Specialized, Trek etc.
What's not selling is Ti, Ti/carbon Hybrids (love my Ottott) and extreme high end CF(Meivici).
Ben has invested in a general manager, a marketing team and a CF production facility. He needs to sell way more bikes to make those investments make sense. And that means modifying the business model to make what the market is asking for. More affortable CF stock or semi stock bikes. (or both) I think the Serotta brand and distribution system is strong enough to make it happen.
The HSG line was poorly conceived IMHO. Wrong geometry, poor graphics and name and a price point that couldn't be justified. Poorly positioned against the majority of cyclists out there.
Dan

[catulle]

All of this "fit talk" is very interesting. Fitting someone with their contact points being in the right place is not rocket science. But really this is only one element of bike fit. As a small rider (5'2") with not typical women's geometry (long torso and arms, and short inseam), it is not necessarily a challenge in this day and age to find a bike that I can "fit" on, even with my funky body type. But I am probably going to be stuck with a very agile handling bike that is over-engineered (heavier??) than it needs to be.

It's interesting to me what people think of when you say "custom" or "fit". Most people can make a bike work and fit so you are comfortable. But having that bike ride and handle (and if we're talking custom...) and be asethetically pleasing to the individual is all included in what you sign up for with a Seven, Serotta, IF, etc. And you pay for that. And that is a beautiful thing.

So how do you buy a Sach's anyway? Is it direct or do you go to a bike shop?

One thing is to deal directly with someone with 30 years experience building frames for others, someone with a great deal of talent and know-how; and a different thing is to deal by way of someone as described by Mr. FatRobert who in turn submits the info to the manufacturer for interpretation.

Also, fit is easy for someone who knows enough, who has experience enough to enunciate with precision what he wants; something else is someone who depends upon the "fitter" to tell him what he needs. When you promise the latter that for an outrageous amount of money you'll fit on that bicycle good enough to ride for six hours, climb Mount Everest on the way, and never tire because the fit is so wonderful, the odds are against you.

The custom, the fitting system idea seems like a good one; however, in my personal experience I think it is difficult to make it work properly, though.

[Dr. Doofus]

would you have the guy at the Men's Warehouse "fit" you for a hand-tailored suit

or

would you go right to the tailor?

[1centaur]

I think Serotta created the Meivici price point around cost accounting and payback periods because it cost a lot to develop and make. In order to make their next CF bike they restricted options significantly and priced too close to MeiVici, and now they are stuck because they can't go down just a little further and offer even fewer paint options, say the tubes are special, and hope to compete against the stock superstars out there (not to mention what they'd do to their own #2 competitor).

The way to break the logjam is to leave the MeiVici at the top of the ladder, then make their number 2 bike with a bit of customization in tubing (comfort/stiff/extra stiff), wide range of custom paint, stock sizes (maybe even sloping or level TT), and a price in the realm of top-end Colnagos and Pinarellos (say $200 more). THAT would be a competitive offering. Slight customization from a limited menu of tubes but a world of paint options and magic pixie dust in the proprietary tube construction for just $200 more (than the inflated US importer charges for Italian bikes when the dollar is weak). It's a bargain and does not devalue the brand. MeiVici can retain the ne ultra plus, maybe have a specific paint palette just for that model, full flexibility of geometry and tubing, maybe a custom jersey ($120 retail value, $15 to make), and the status that comes with its high price.

If they went for CF #3, it would have to be a Look 585/595 type of competitor - light, thoughtful paint, get it reviewed by the trade rags, etc., again for $2-300 more. If they were to sponsor a team, this would be the model for that.

It's all about the real cost base of the self-made tubes and how much volume they can push through.

[Ahneida Ride]

Prices are jumping jumping jumping. It is scary!

The exact opposite is happening. The frn is being diluted diluted diluted.
We pay Ben in fns.

I paid 3250 frn 5-6 years ago for a Custom Legend Ti, Painted F1 Fork,
upgraded pearl paint and rack mounts.

That's at least 5200 frn today.

Scary is not the word. It's terrifying.

*frn = fed reserve note.

[Sandy]

Sandy, would you buy an all carbon Fierte? I wouldn't. But, I don't like all carbon bikes.

I now understand more about what I like in the fit of my bike then in 1998 when I bought my CSI. I have had several opportunities to test ride a MeiVici and I did not for the simple reason tht I would not pay that much for any bike, period, so why take someone's time to even ride it. Even if I liked it I would not buy it. Consider a Fierte carbon bike. Would I test ride one? Absolutely. If I only had one bike I would have absolutely tried it before I bought my all steel CDA. Would I have bought it? Don't know. Maybe- if it fit and if I liked the ride of the carbon bike. I really liked the Trek 5200/5500 carbon bikes. Before I bought the 2008 CDA, I rode the Trek Performance Madone. I found the front end much too quick for me. Did not have optimal weight distribution for sure. I think I should have tried a larger size. The geometry is quicker- steeper hta, smaller trail....If I liked it I definitely would have bought it. I can't buy a carbon Serotta because they have none that I am willing to try. Too expensive for me.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I'm betting they will, Sandy. You should be part of the marketing team. Dollars to donuts that's what they will come up with after looking very closely at the market.
What's selling now is just about anything that is CF in the mid to high mid price points.. Cevelo, Colnago, Time Look, Specialized, Trek etc.
What's not selling is Ti, Ti/carbon Hybrids (love my Ottott) and extreme high end CF(Meivici).
Ben has invested in a general manager, a marketing team and a CF production facility. He needs to sell way more bikes to make those investments make sense. And that means modifying the business model to make what the market is asking for. More affortable CF stock or semi stock bikes. (or both) I think the Serotta brand and distribution system is strong enough to make it happen.
The HSG line was poorly conceived IMHO. Wrong geometry, poor graphics and name and a price point that couldn't be justified. Poorly positioned against the majority of cyclists out there.
Dan

Excellent insightful post. Serotta is unable to sell to the market that you give because it has no carbon bikes priced for that market. Is this by choice? As you state, Serotta would have to modify its business model to make what the market is asking for. I think that the HSG line is in itself a modification of its business model in that it was not aimed at the older less race oriented cyclist that seem to prevail in the Serotta niche market. Also, Serotta has its carbon production facility and a Serotta Mangement Team to reinvent the Serotta image, without losing or hindering the existing one.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Serotta sells a complete steel Fierte road bike for $3,025-$3,050, and that is list price. It already has a carbon fork and a carbon rear. Serotta produces its own tubing. How much more could it possible cost Serotta to produce the necessary tubes to make the bike all carbon (understand that the tubes must be joined)? The tubing choice cost is just a portion of the overall costs that goes into producing a bike, and probably not nearly as much as we even think. What makes a Serotta a Serotta? Probably the design and the build- not the materials. Today cyclists want the material to be carbon.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I wonder where most MeiVicis are sold- probably many more around affluent areas like Manhattan. I am not privy to any info from Serotta obviously , but I bet the top 5 or maybe even the top 10 volume sales dealers of Serotta sell a remarkably inordinate amount of MeiVicis compared to thier total sales than other Serotta dealers and I would think that there are a large number of Serotta dealers which sell very few or maybe even no Meivicis.

Put 5-10 "affordable" Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the dealer floor and I think they might sell quite well.


Sandy

[Dan Le foot]

I think Serotta created the Meivici price point around cost accounting and payback periods because it cost a lot to develop and make. In order to make their next CF bike they restricted options significantly and priced too close to MeiVici, and now they are stuck because they can't go down just a little further and offer even fewer paint options, say the tubes are special, and hope to compete against the stock superstars out there (not to mention what they'd do to their own #2 competitor).

The way to break the logjam is to leave the MeiVici at the top of the ladder, then make their number 2 bike with a bit of customization in tubing (comfort/stiff/extra stiff), wide range of custom paint, stock sizes (maybe even sloping or level TT), and a price in the realm of top-end Colnagos and Pinarellos (say $200 more). THAT would be a competitive offering. Slight customization from a limited menu of tubes but a world of paint options and magic pixie dust in the proprietary tube construction for just $200 more (than the inflated US importer charges for Italian bikes when the dollar is weak). It's a bargain and does not devalue the brand. MeiVici can retain the ne ultra plus, maybe have a specific paint palette just for that model, full flexibility of geometry and tubing, maybe a custom jersey ($120 retail value, $15 to make), and the status that comes with its high price.

If they went for CF #3, it would have to be a Look 585/595 type of competitor - light, thoughtful paint, get it reviewed by the trade rags, etc., again for $2-300 more. If they were to sponsor a team, this would be the model for that.

It's all about the real cost base of the self-made tubes and how much volume they can push through.

Yo, marketing team. What 1centaur says.

I would also keep the Meivici in the line as the flagship. (Recognize not many will sell) I like both CF#2 and #3. The Ottrott, Legend and CDA would round out the line.
dan

[Sandy]

As you noted, developmental and production cost were undoubtedly high for the MeiVici. But Serotta has established its ability to produced lugged fully carbon bikes. It has its own carbon production facility and much of the developmental costs have occurred. Certainly new carbon Serotta models would produce additional costs, but there presently exists the Serotta F3 carbon fork,the Serotta carbon S-fork, Serotta carbon stays, and manufacturing capability of producing additional/new/cheaper carbon tubing and lugs (to be machined) if necessary.

If Serotta can sell a non-custom Fierte steel (with carbon stay and carbon fork) for $3,000 could it not sell a carbon one for $3500-$4,000, or is it simply too costly/difficult/time consuming to join the tubes or do the carbon tubes built at Serotta's own facility really cost that much more? Perhaps Serotta's capacity is maxed out for now and by producing more affordable carbon bikes, the profit per unit would decline.

Remember how expensive the first ti bikes were? Remember how expensive Shimano's sti was originally?


Sandy

[Jack Brunk]

I'll be blunt. I owned and ridden almost all of the top end carbon frames available today and the Meivici doesn't make my top five carbon frames of 07 and 08 and I tried hard to make them work. Sometimes you need to stick to what you know best.

[Sandy]

I'll be blunt. I owned and ridden almost all of the top end carbon frames available today and the Meivici doesn't make my top five carbon frames of 07 and 08 and I tried hard to make them work. Sometimes you need to stick to what you know best.

What I don't understand is that when you first rode your MeiVici (I think you had 2 of them, not sure) I remember how remarkably impressed you were by the ride. I believe recalling you stating that you said that the bike had a remarkable combination of a plush ride with an exceptionally responsive and fast ride, or something like that. I believe you said that it was the best bike you ever had at the time. What made you change your mind? Simply ride more carbon bikes?



Sandy

[H.Frank Beshear]

I'll be blunt. I owned and ridden almost all of the top end carbon frames available today and the Meivici doesn't make my top five carbon frames of 07 and 08 and I tried hard to make them work. Sometimes you need to stick to what you know best.

Hmm might not be a large enough market for these (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=524971&postcount=1) atmo. But that is some pretty lugwork.

[Jack Brunk]

What I don't understand is that when you first rode your MeiVici (I think you had 2 of them, not sure) I remember how remarkably impressed you were by the ride. I believe recalling you stating that you said that the bike had a remarkable combination of a plush ride with an exceptionally responsive and fast ride, or something like that. I believe you said that it was the best bike you ever had at the time. What made you change your mind? Simply ride more carbon bikes?



Sandy
I'll be truthful here, I tried as hard as anyone would have to love their brand new very expensive carbon frame. Man I rode and changed parts, wheels and whatever I could and it didn't work. It's water under the bridge now and yes Sandy I did want to love the bike more than anything. LIke Swoop says, a great bike can be made out of any material. I now believe him 100%.

[Jack Brunk]

Hmm might not be a large enough market for these (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=524971&postcount=1) atmo. But that is some pretty lugwork.
Frank,

Brother I see the light now. I have a superlight lugged frame being made by the Zanc man and it will be a killer frame. Bedfords work is incredible to say the least. Sometime in 09.

[Sandy]

I'll be truthful here, I tried as hard as anyone would have to love their brand new very expensive carbon frame. Man I rode and changed parts, wheels and whatever I could and it didn't work. It's water under the bridge now and yes Sandy I did want to love the bike more than anything. LIke Swoop says, a great bike can be made out of any material. I now believe him 100%.

I agree with that. I have not been riding as I have not been feeling too well but I recently bought an all steel CDA, and although I have not ridden it very much (150 miles about), I really think, thus far, that it is a remarkably balanced bike relative to how it does everything- very efficient transfer of pedal input into forward motion, superior ride quality, extremely stable, handles very well, and is very balanced front versus rear. Just a joy and fun to ride. Fit and design are the keys. Tubing material is an individual choice. There is no right and no wrong- that being true very often relative to bike selection- A very personal thing.


Sandy

[3chordwonder]

Porsche to build 30K Cayman

To continue that analogy - isn't Sandy just wishing for a Serotta equivalent to a Cayman S at full price, not 30K?

i.e. lower price than the flagship 911 or Meivici, but still a real Porsche/Serotta.

Then it's suddenly not such a silly question.

[Steve Hampsten]

What if Serotta went the Parlee Z4 route: i.e., had someone else build them where Chinese food might be on the menu? Could that work, lower price point and all?

[Sandy]

To continue that analogy - isn't Sandy just wishing for a Serotta equivalent to a Cayman S at full price, not 30K?

i.e. lower price than the flagship 911 or Meivici, but still a real Porsche/Serotta.

Then it's suddenly not such a silly question.

Yes I think that you are correct. Serottas are expensive. Porsches are very expensive. Both are wonderful products. The "entry"level Porsches are the Boxster and the Boxster S, and then comes the Cayman and the Cayman S. After that there are 15 911 iterations- From the 911 Carrera to the 911 G2. One could say that the 911 G2 is the equivalent of the MeiVici SE. I cannot afford the 911 G2. I bought the Cayman S, which is less expensive than any of the 911 cars, but which in fact is preferrable in ways to most of them. So one might say the Cayman and the Cayman S or the Boxster and the Boxster S are the equivalent to the Fierte steel and the Fierte ti/carbon. If the Cayman series did not exist, I would not be driving any Porsche at all. The others are just too expensive for me (except the Boxster cars but they are convertibles that I did not want). The first year of the Cayman S was 2006. The first year of the Cayman was 2007 (if I remember correctly). These cars made it possible for me to purchase a Porsche. I bought the Cayman S for precisely the identical reason I bought the 1998 CSI and later the Ottrott ST and the CDA- because I really enjoyed and appreciated how the car drove/handled and the remarkable balance and excellence of it.

Without the more affordable Cayman or Cayman S I would not own a Porsche. Likewise, Serotta could possibly use a more affordable carbon bike. that would allow more people to own a Serotta who want a carbon bike.

Not a $30,000 Cayman or a $40,000 Cayman S but one of those in which I could buy it and Porsche would be willing to sell it.


Sandy

[Sandy]

What if Serotta went the Parlee Z4 route: i.e., had someone else build them where Chinese food might be on the menu? Could that work, lower price point and all?

Excellent question. So many people seem to rule that out. A Serotta built with cheap labor but with Serotta design specs might work, but I doubt that will happen. It won't be a made in the USA product. Maybe not enough conrol by Serotta. I certainly have thought it quite possible.

I envison a significantly less expensive carbon fiber Serotta than what exists today. It might not even be called a Serotta. Maybe call it a Saratoga (from Saratoga Springs) and market it as a high quality non-custom carbon fiber bike designed by Serotta and built by Serotta in the USA.

Heck, isn't the Serotta Management Team here to increase Serotta's position in the market place (one reason)?


Sandy

[bnewt07]

Excellent question. So many people seem to rule that out. A Serotta built with cheap labor but with Serotta design specs might work, but I doubt that will happen. It won't be a made in the USA product. Maybe not enough conrol by Serotta. I certainly have thought it quite possible.

I envison a significantly less expensive carbon fiber Serotta than what exists today. It might not even be called a Serotta. Maybe call it a Saratoga (from Saratoga Springs) and market it as a high quality non-custom carbon fiber bike designed by Serotta and built by Serotta in the USA.

Heck, isn't the Serotta Management Team here to increase Serotta's position in the market place (one reason)?


Sandy

I see considerable marketing sense in that. The Serotta name attracts a margin of exclusivity-lets be honest to a degree it appeals to customers who have a degree of eilitism about the brands they choose. If Serotta decided to make a cheaper carbon range then surely it would make sense to create another brand banner for that range. This might draw customners into the Serotta fold and keep the high value bikes as objects of desire undiluted by the lower specced stuff.

I'm just not sure they'd do it-for one surely the profits margins are small and require a degree of high-volume sales and marketing that may not be Serotta's taste and I'm also not sure they'd take a risk to build models that compete in a highly competitive area of the marketplace where they just might not come out on top.

I think a bigger issue for Serotta is actually retaining the cost/value of their custom Ti ranges where Ti prices seem to have fallen significantly and customisation is being oferred at lower prices by other companies too. But that is a whole new thread!

[swoop]

I'll be blunt. I owned and ridden almost all of the top end carbon frames available today and the Meivici doesn't make my top five carbon frames of 07 and 08 and I tried hard to make them work. Sometimes you need to stick to what you know best.


*can be used as a coupon for $2k off jimcav's meivici in classifieds.

[stevep]

What if Serotta went the Parlee Z4 route: i.e., had someone else build them where Chinese food might be on the menu? Could that work, lower price point and all?

i thk that price area is so crowded that it might be tough to find a slot.
giant, trek, specialized, etc, etc have a lot of floor space in these price points as well as many, many other smaller brands.

[stevep]

I'll be truthful here, I tried as hard as anyone would have to love their brand new very expensive carbon frame. Man I rode and changed parts, wheels and whatever I could and it didn't work. It's water under the bridge now and yes Sandy I did want to love the bike more than anything. LIke Swoop says, a great bike can be made out of any material. I now believe him 100%.


could be a case of too much rider input.
sometimes rider input is dangerous..
better imo to find a stock bike that fits than to diick around with how you might hope it should be... and i know there are riders who need custom...
but not very many.

[Elefantino]

... if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base ...
Perhaps a too simple question here: Why?

Ferrari sells every car it makes. No need for a $30K Enzo Lite.

Serotta? Same boat.

Or no?

[Chris]

could be a case of too much rider input.
sometimes rider input is dangerous..
better imo to find a stock bike that fits than to diick around with how you might hope it should be... and i know there are riders who need custom...
but not very many.

word

[e-RICHIE]

could be a case of too much rider input.
sometimes rider input is dangerous..
better imo to find a stock bike that fits than to diick around with how you might hope it should be... and i know there are riders who need custom...
but not very many.
wordmo.

[Sandy]

I see considerable marketing sense in that. The Serotta name attracts a margin of exclusivity-lets be honest to a degree it appeals to customers who have a degree of eilitism about the brands they choose. If Serotta decided to make a cheaper carbon range then surely it would make sense to create another brand banner for that range. This might draw customners into the Serotta fold and keep the high value bikes as objects of desire undiluted by the lower specced stuff.

I'm just not sure they'd do it-for one surely the profits margins are small and require a degree of high-volume sales and marketing that may not be Serotta's taste and I'm also not sure they'd take a risk to build models that compete in a highly competitive area of the marketplace where they just might not come out on top.

I think a bigger issue for Serotta is actually retaining the cost/value of their custom Ti ranges where Ti prices seem to have fallen significantly and customisation is being oferred at lower prices by other companies too. But that is a whole new thread!

If Serotta were to produce a more affordable carbon bike (or any other material bike), maintaining the wonderful image of Serotta would need to be an important criterion as to how Serotta would proceed. Its image of producing some of the highest quality bikes built with superior design must be maintained as that is part of the draw of Serotta. Call part of it "exclusivity" or "...customers who have a degree of elitism about the brands they choose.." is certainly how some look at Serotta also. I personally have met a large number of Serotta cyclists and those that I have met do not fit that mold. I have heard of storys of some potential bike purchaser going into a shop with the purpose of buying the most expensive bike at the shop- most expensive means best bike to some. I have heard of Serotta buyers asking for the most expensive Serotta bike. I know of no Serotta cyclist like that.


Sandy

[Dan Le foot]

Perhaps a too simple question here: Why?

Ferrari sells every car it makes. No need for a $30K Enzo Lite.

Serotta? Same boat.

Or no?

I think Ben is pass that, Elafantino.
With the new CF facility and high priced talent he recently added he has way too much overhead to remain a boutique shop.
Unless he unloads the overhead he needs to sell more bikes. And that means offering more products that the mass market demands. e.g. a Look 585.
Not sure why something like it can't be made by Serotta at a similiar price point.
Dan
Dan

[Elefantino]

"...customers who have a degree of elitism about the brands they choose.."
Like this guy?

http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/Obama.jpg

[Sandy]

Oh boy.....downhill this thread will be going......Please try to keep this thread centered on the initial post. Thus far it has been remarkably well focused there.


Sandy

[Elefantino]

I'm sorry. Couldn't resist. :no:

[Elefantino]

And that means offering more products that the mass market demands. e.g. a Look 585.
I'm not sure the mass market demands a Look 585.

I think the mass market demands a Trek or a Giant or a Specialized, and that's what those brands are there for.

Then again, riffing back to my Ferrari analogy, maybe there is a precedent: Colnago sells Nationalist Chinese-made carbon bikes ... and I don't think that brand has suddenly become the one for shot-and-a-beer folks whose grandfather taught them to shoot in the backwoods of Pennsylvania.

[Dan Le foot]

Yes I think that you are correct. Serottas are expensive. Porsches are very expensive. Both are wonderful products. The "entry"level Porsches are the Boxster and the Boxster S, and then comes the Cayman and the Cayman S. After that there are 15 911 iterations- From the 911 Carrera to the 911 G2. One could say that the 911 G2 is the equivalent of the MeiVici SE. I cannot afford the 911 G2. I bought the Cayman S, which is less expensive than any of the 911 cars, but which in fact is preferrable in ways to most of them. So one might say the Cayman and the Cayman S or the Boxster and the Boxster S are the equivalent to the Fierte steel and the Fierte ti/carbon. If the Cayman series did not exist, I would not be driving any Porsche at all. The others are just too expensive for me (except the Boxster cars but they are convertibles that I did not want). The first year of the Cayman S was 2006. The first year of the Cayman was 2007 (if I remember correctly). These cars made it possible for me to purchase a Porsche. I bought the Cayman S for precisely the identical reason I bought the 1998 CSI and later the Ottrott ST and the CDA- because I really enjoyed and appreciated how the car drove/handled and the remarkable balance and excellence of it.

Without the more affordable Cayman or Cayman S I would not own a Porsche. Likewise, Serotta could possibly use a more affordable carbon bike. that would allow more people to own a Serotta who want a carbon bike.

Not a $30,000 Cayman or a $40,000 Cayman S but one of those in which I could buy it and Porsche would be willing to sell it.


Sandy
You bring up an interesting point, Sandy.
I have found many cyclists to be brand loyal. Many Trek owners in our club have bought new Treks to replace their old ones over the last several years. I have a friend that rides an old Bianchi that needs to be replaced. He keeps talking about the new Bianchi that he's going to get. I see this a lot.
My 1st Serotta was a low end stock Ti bike. (Classique) I moved up to a Legend a couple of years later. (what a difference)
We are very loyal Serotta owners and have had 8 Serotta's over the years. I love my CDA and Ottrott. My wife also has an Ottrott. (But her ebay Parlee is now her #1)
Serotta needs an entry level CF bike that would compete with the top selling brands/models in the market at that price point. And a higher end model to move up to in the future. (something in the C50 range)
ATMO
Dan

[Elefantino]

We are very loyal Serotta owners and have had 8 Serotta's over the years.
Are you not (and are we not) Serotta's market? Loyal or aspiringly loyal riders who want the best?
Serotta needs an entry level CF bike that would compete with the top selling brands/models in the market at that price point. And a higher end model to move up to in the future. (something in the C50 range)
Serotta's entry-level carbon is the HSG, right? It's six large and change with an Ultegra kit. That's maybe a grand or so more than the 585.

I'm sorry if I sound and am contrarian on this, but there are too many stories of companies who had nice sales niches who decided to go downmarket and imploded. Unless someone has information that they're not sharing, I see Serotta as a small, healthy company that wants to cement its place in the market, not alter it.

MBA types, weigh in. I'm just a journalist.

[Fixed]

LIke Swoop says, a great bike can be made out of any material. I now believe him 100%.
bro i always listen to swoop and jack
cheers imho

[Sandy]

Are you not (and are we not) Serotta's market? Loyal or aspiringly loyal riders who want the best?

Serotta's entry-level carbon is the HSG, right? It's six large and change with an Ultegra kit. That's maybe a grand or so more than the 585.

I'm sorry if I sound and am contrarian on this, but there are too many stories of companies who had nice sales niches who decided to go downmarket and imploded. Unless someone has information that they're not sharing, I see Serotta as a small, healthy company that wants to cement its place in the market, not alter it.

MBA types, weigh in. I'm just a journalist.

The HSG is $6,000 and has limited appeal because of its aggressive geometry. I wonder how many potetial purchasers who race bikes are willing to pay $6000 for a carbon bike to race.

I certainly have no clue as to how Serotta is doing and have no clue as to its marketing/production desires. As I just mentioned in a post here, the Serotta image is an excellent one, and it is paramount for that high quality image to be maintained. Your comments above are quite significant, I would think.


Sandy

[Sandy]

bro i always listen to swoop and jack
cheers imho

That is really nice. Both of them suggest that you send me $1,000 in cash! :) :cool:


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Sandy$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[dekindy]

Most of this discussion is above my knowledge of bicycle design, frame materials, and industry pricing.

What I did notice recently is a small custom steel/ builder offering a custom built steel/carbon bicycle. See the pricing and build description here. He builds a steel bike and cuts out the tubes and replaces with carbon. What is that all about?

http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/fp.htm
http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/FCLS.htm

I also noted this unique configuration at the NAHBS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY
Carl Strong builds frames from steel, aluminum, carbon, and ti. The NAHBS bike discussed in the video has:

steel: HT, DT, BB, and chainstay for the springy, lively feel of a steel ride.

carbon: ST & TT for vibration samping abilities and light weight

titatnium: Seat Stay

David Kirk expresses extreme respect for Carl Strong for whatever that is worth.

I don't know what all this means for the bicycle industry. It is sure interesting. The sky seems to be the limit for designs, materials, pricing, custom, etc. :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

I have kept from replying to this thread for I did not want it to look defensive or to seem petty.

The vast majority of the carbon frames out there come from less than 5 sources in China & Taiwan. That does not make them better or worse, it is just a fact.

The Serotta brand builds everything in the US. Tubes are sourced in the US from SEROTTA to SEROTTA :) . That does cost more but it is felt it has advantages for the custom and the product long term.

To go overseas and source (as well as build the frame) from China would create a lower price point but not an equal or superior product. So the question becomes "Why offer a cheap carbon frame that is just like everyone else?" Serotta has not found one -

Growing unit sales does not necessarily equate to brand enhancement, product enhancement, or even more profit for the company. (yeah it could be more revenue but cost would go up to manage that aspect of the business)

I quite often use PORSCHE as an example of a company that puts lots of $$ into R&D and product development (just as SEROTTA does). They could make a cheaper car by producing a different model in CHINA and TAIWAN -and short term increase sales. Is that what the legacy and direction of the company should be? Will it create "value" growth and long term profitabilty to enhance product and brand..., much less value to the owner?"

Rolex, Ferrari, McIntosh ( before reinventing), as well as high end gun and boat manufactures are also examples of where the company has served the buyer and not a price point. Yeah some have come out with low end models and they have been a detraction to maker and the buyer.

In cars we have seen this in the MERCEDES C Class of old, Porsche 944, BMW 318 hatch back, etx,,,, It does not mean there is not a market for a product in that price range, it just has shown that certain brands do not add value or long term sales when they chose to compete in that market,

My opinion (as we all are entitled to an opinion) is that SEROTTA will stay making the highend products and that it would cheapen the brand and in the long term cause negative growth. Schwinn and LightSpeed, as well as Lemond and others, are examples (in my opinion) of what happens when you focus on unit sales and low entry price instead of innovation and engineering. Remember Orbea carbon, who has been buying them lately, could it be that nothing separates them from the other mass market brands and it becomes a $$ decision on what someone buys for they can not tell a differentiation from SPECIALIZED and GIANT. Both are wonderful products - they ride fine, if they fit and are what you want. Sale price then becomes the main selection criteria.

Is Parlee coming out with a $2000 frame they make? I do not know enough about CRUMPTON and other small carbon builders to voice an opinion.

THere are plenty of companies that sell by units and flavor of the month. - - Just think of all the great companies that have come and gone.

Hopefully that is my rant for the day - thanks for listening and feel free to flame me,

YES Serotta could always do better and that is the objective to always do better tomorrow and the day after -that is meeting your customer desires and exceeding them quite often. IT IS ALSO NECESSARY IN THE COMPETIVE WORLD WE LIVE INTO TODAY, if we are to grow our business :D .

[torquer]

What if Serotta went the Parlee Z4 route: i.e., had someone else build them where Chinese food might be on the menu? Could that work, lower price point and all?

Isn't that what they did (sort of) in the 90's with those aluminum frames built in Colorado?

How did that turn out? My impression is those bikes aren't much prized by the Serotta faithfull. (To continue with the Porsche analogy, sort of like the originally unloved VW-engined 914, or more recently any of the front-engined models. For true believers, only an 6 cylinder engine in the back, or at least in the middle, was the what God had in mind.)

Or was the point of these bikes/sports cars that they would be gateway drugs to something harder?

[Sandy]

I have kept from replying to this thread for I did not want it to look defensive or to seem petty.

The vast majority of the carbon frames out there come from less than 5 sources in China & Taiwan. That does not make them better or worse, it is just a fact.

The Serotta brand builds everything in the US. Tubes are sourced in the US from SEROTTA to SEROTTA :) . That does cost more but it is felt it has advantages for the custom and the product long term.

To go overseas and source (as well as build the frame) from China would create a lower price point but not an equal or superior product. So the question becomes "Why offer a cheap carbon frame that is just like everyone else?" Serotta has not found one -

Growing unit sales does not necessarily equate to brand enhancement, product enhancement, or even more profit for the company. (yeah it could be more revenue but cost would go up to manage that aspect of the business)

I quite often use PORSCHE as an example of a company that puts lots of $$ into R&D and product development (just as SEROTTA does). They could make a cheaper car by producing a different model in CHINA and TAIWAN -and short term increase sales. Is that what the legacy and direction of the company should be? Will it create "value" growth and long term profitabilty to enhance product and brand..., much less value to the owner?"

Rolex, Ferrari, McIntosh ( before reinventing), as well as high end gun and boat manufactures are also examples of where the company has served the buyer and not a price point. Yeah some have come out with low end models and they have been a detraction to maker and the buyer.

In cars we have seen this in the MERCEDES C Class of old, Porsche 944, BMW 318 hatch back, etx,,,, It does not mean there is not a market for a product in that price range, it just has shown that certain brands do not add value or long term sales when they chose to compete in that market,

My opinion (as we all are entitled to an opinion) is that SEROTTA will stay making the highend products and that it would cheapen the brand and in the long term cause negative growth. Schwinn and LightSpeed, as well as Lemond and others, are examples (in my opinion) of what happens when you focus on unit sales and low entry price instead of innovation and engineering. Remember Orbea carbon, who has been buying them lately, could it be that nothing separates them from the other mass market brands and it becomes a $$ decision on what someone buys for they can not tell a differentiation from SPECIALIZED and GIANT. Both are wonderful products - they ride fine, if they fit and are what you want. Sale price then becomes the main selection criteria.

Is Parlee coming out with a $2000 frame they make? I do not know enough about CRUMPTON and other small carbon builders to voice an opinion.

THere are plenty of companies that sell by units and flavor of the month. - - Just think of all the great companies that have come and gone.

Hopefully that is my rant for the day - thanks for listening and feel free to flame me,

YES Serotta could always do better and that is the objective to always do better tomorrow and the day after -that is meeting your customer desires and exceeding them quite often. IT IS ALSO NECESSARY IN THE COMPETIVE WORLD WE LIVE INTO TODAY, if we are to grow our business :D .

Why would anyone possibly flame you? What you say makes perfect sense. If Serotta's business model works and Serotta is comfortable with it working in the future, then why would Serotta change it? If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! I think Porsche makes a significant profit on its unit sales. Hopefully Serotta does also. Clearly Serotta could make more on a MeiVici than on a much cheaper carbon road bike. I just think that an in store ready to sell made in the USA all carbon non-custom bike made by a company like Serotta that exudes quality could be very well received. As said before call it something else (I like the name Saratoga) if you prefer.

Is carbon tubing rally that expensive compared to other tubing? I don't know, but you are not talking about much of it per bike- The fork is already a Serotta carbon one as is the rear stay. Does a cheaper carbon, or most carbons, really add that much to the total price of producing a bike?


Saratoga (Springs) Steel Serotta Sandy

[max_powers]

Yes, well posted by Pete. The high end Market is always there, but will suffer typically in economic downturn (Harley Davidson) when discretionary $ lessen.

there is always the finger to point at the most expensive, even if not the best. And clearly differences in modern are bicycles are minute. Notice how the Pros perform any make? (specialized haters take recent note of Flanders and Roubaix).

Panache has a price.

[Sandy]

Yes, well posted by Pete. The high end Market is always there, but will suffer typically in economic downturn (Harley Davidson) when discretionary $ lessen.

there is always the finger to point at the most expensive, even if not the best. And clearly differences in modern are bicycles are minute. Notice how the Pros perform any make? (specialized haters take recent note of Flanders and Roubaix).

Panache has a price.

I think that the lower end suffers more in an economic downturn. I may be incorrect. The zillion dollar houses will always sell, I think.


Sandy

[davids]

could be a case of too much rider input.
sometimes rider input is dangerous..
better imo to find a stock bike that fits than to diick around with how you might hope it should be... and i know there are riders who need custom...
but not very many.Stevep makes me sticky.

Very, very easy to screw up a design when going custom, especially as you add layers to the design process. Most of us don't need custom, and shouldn't spend the time or money on a process that's fraught with problems.

For most of us, cheaper is better - I'd take a $3,300 Serotta HSG IT in a 52cm over a $6,500 Ottrott SE 'made to measure' without a moment's hesitation.

If and when I get a custom bike, I'm going to point at my stock 51cm. Peg and say, "That's the geo I want. Make it ride nice and paint it some pretty colors." But there's no way I am (or my fitter is) effing with the geometry, unless the fitter is also the designer and builder.

[Sandy]

Stevep makes me sticky.

Very, very easy to screw up a design when going custom, especially as you add layers to the design process. Most of us don't need custom, and shouldn't spend the time or money on a process that's fraught with problems.

For most of us, cheaper is better - I'd take a $3,300 Serotta HSG IT in a 52cm over a $6,500 Ottrott SE 'made to measure' without a moment's hesitation.

If and when I get a custom bike, I'm going to point at my stock 51cm. Peg and say, "That's the geo I want. Make it ride nice and paint it some pretty colors." But there's no way I am (or my fitter is) effing with the geometry, unless the fitter is also the designer and builder.

Clearly understand your point, but to say that cheaper is better for most is quite a stretch. I'll take the Ottrott SE without a moment's hesitation and would not take the HSG at all. It is too aggressively designed for me, plain and simple. In addition what flexibility does it have for future changes? An Ottrott can be custom designed for me. Not all fitters screw it up. Perhaps the bike will not look aesthetically pleasing to you, but that does not mean that it will not fit.

I have to stop here. My dog just climbed up on me and is licking me and licking me. He is telling me he wants/needs to go out.


Sandy

[Dan Le foot]

-that is meeting your customer desires and exceeding them quite often. IT IS ALSO NECESSARY IN THE COMPETIVE WORLD WE LIVE INTO TODAY, if we are to grow our business :D .

Exactly, Pete.
Prior to the 1980's Cadillac had over 50% market share of the luxury segment of the auto industry. Than they lost touch with the customer and allowed their market share to plunge to under 8% over the next 20 years. They finally started to make products that the customer was demanding and competitive price points few years ago. The Caddy brand is doing quite well now.
Same with Serotta. To be competitive and grow in this market the company has to offer products that are in high demand by the consumer. And I think Ben knows that. Hence the investment in people and production facilities.
Taking large price increases on products with fewer choices that the consumer doesn't want isn't the model for success. And I get to have an opinion too. :)
I would never flame my favorite homer:beer: I always enjoy reading your point of view.
Dan

[catulle]

There's always been a market niche of those who want the "most expensive"; and there will always be those who are convinced that more expensive means better whatever (quality, performance, prestige...) And those merchants that target that market niche need to make their products palatable to that kind of consumer one way or another.

Moreover, with the new found richness in the Orient, the overabundant richness in the Middle East, and those segments of the US and European market profiting from oil, war, and so on, well, there is a great deal of demand for the "most expensive" of anything.

The Swiss are selling top-end watches like crazy even if quality control has gone to pot because they cannot keep up with the added production. Porsche is selling Cayennes like hot cakes even though they are no better than the Touareg and certainly not better than a $25,000 Toyota pick-up truck when it comes to climbing rocks or crossing muddy rivers. On and on.

In other words, we are talking here about the world of the consumer market. The world of perceived needs and capricious wants. Thus, it takes some doing for the manufacturers and merchants of products for that market to stay afloat and/or proliferate. It's a tough world out there.

[davyt]

<snip>
I envison a significantly less expensive carbon fiber Serotta than what exists today. It might not even be called a Serotta. Maybe call it a Saratoga (from Saratoga Springs) and market it as a high quality non-custom carbon fiber bike designed by Serotta and built by Serotta in the USA.

Sandy
Believe it or not, something like that (http://www.citycycle.com/bikes_bikelines.htm#saratoga) has already been done...
--
Davy

[93legendti]

...
Moreover, with the new found richness in the Orient, the overabundant richness in the Middle East, and those segments of the US and European market profiting from oil, war, and so on, well, there is a great deal of demand for the "most expensive" of anything...

Oh my... :rolleyes:

[Elefantino]

Growing unit sales does not necessarily equate to brand enhancement, product enhancement, or even more profit for the company. (yeah it could be more revenue but cost would go up to manage that aspect of the business)
Pete:

You are, quite simply, the man.

:banana:

[soulspinner]

Perhaps a too simple question here: Why?

Ferrari sells every car it makes. No need for a $30K Enzo Lite.

Serotta? Same boat.

Or no?


I think you have it 100 percent correct. This is the same reason they can say no special paint on a GS. They will sell plenty of both. If they wanted to make a $3000 carbon frame they wouldnt buy a facility in Cali to make cf stuff, theyd just outsource it. They chose to go the Enzo way. I just want a GS steel with panels. Id be just as fast on that as a Meivici and I dig panels. :)

[Pete Serotta]

I think you have it 100 percent correct. This is the same reason they can say no special paint on a GS. They will sell plenty of both. If they wanted to make a $3000 carbon frame they wouldnt buy a facility in Cali to make cf stuff, theyd just outsource it. They chose to go the Enzo way.

I just want a GS steel with panels. :D :D :D It can be yours" call me :D


:)

yep, call me....

[justinf]

Interesting discussion. The elephant in the room to me is that I can't see a single area where a Meivici holds a clear advantage over, say, a Crumpton. This has some support within this forum by those who have ridden and even owned both (not me, an important disclaimer).

2x the price.

[benb]

I'd love to think once you're clued in enough to be ready to buy a Serotta, Seven, etc.. that if you have a particular price point in mind you're fine with going with a Legend, etc.. instead of the Meivici.

At the point you're buying one of these bikes.. you ought to know the frame material isn't the #1 most important thing.. do we really think the following set of people is that huge?

- Have to have a custom bike
- Have to have carbon fiber
- Have to have a low price???

My guess is that group of people is nowhere near as large as we might think.

You can get a Legend out the door at a price that is totally competitive with something like the Look that has been mentioned..

[benb]

Stevep makes me sticky.

Very, very easy to screw up a design when going custom, especially as you add layers to the design process. Most of us don't need custom, and shouldn't spend the time or money on a process that's fraught with problems.

For most of us, cheaper is better - I'd take a $3,300 Serotta HSG IT in a 52cm over a $6,500 Ottrott SE 'made to measure' without a moment's hesitation.

If and when I get a custom bike, I'm going to point at my stock 51cm. Peg and say, "That's the geo I want. Make it ride nice and paint it some pretty colors." But there's no way I am (or my fitter is) effing with the geometry, unless the fitter is also the designer and builder.

Actually isn't the easiest way to screw it up to put too much customer input into it?

Just let Serotta design the bike for you.. don't try to pretend you're smarter then they are.. they'll get it right..

[davids]

Actually isn't the easiest way to screw it up to put too much customer input into it?

Just let Serotta design the bike for you.. don't try to pretend you're smarter then they are.. they'll get it right..Absolutely.

Serotta did design my bike for me - a stock 52cm Nove. It's nice.

[benb]

Me too.. took a while to dial in the handlebar & the other pieces that Serotta had no real control over.. now I'm a believer... this is going to be a fun season..

If you fit the Nove that well.. they may have given you very similar geometry if you'd gotten a custom frame.. and just changed the tubes around.

The problem would likely have been if/when you second guess them and ask them to change something on the design against their wishes.

[davids]

Me too.. took a while to dial in the handlebar & the other pieces that Serotta had no real control over.. now I'm a believer... this is going to be a fun season..

If you fit the Nove that well.. they may have given you very similar geometry if you'd gotten a custom frame.. and just changed the tubes around.

The problem would likely have been if/when you second guess them and ask them to change something on the design against their wishes.I would not have considered second guessing Serotta. I know that I'm not competent to do that. My concern is that my fitter may have not been competent either, but may have been under the delusion that he or she was.

The fitter is an intermediary who is built into the Serotta "custom" equation, and has the potential to screw things up in a big way. (Note that I am not saying this was true of the person I worked with before buying my Nove!) I have heard about bad experiences and seen strangely designed bikes that demonstrate this happens.

"Custom" is marketed as being better, and worth the premium. For MOST OF US this is not actually true, for at least two reasons. First, the bell curve demonstrates that the vast majority of us can be successfully fitted onto "stock" sizes (given a reasonably large number of stock sizes). Second, most of us are not sufficiently competent to make good decisions (beyond ephemera like colors and chain hangers) about what we want when offered choices.

Hence, my belief that most of us are better off with stock geometry/designs, both because the design is going to be better and (fortuitously) it's going to be cheaper.

[Sandy]

Take it privately, please.


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

Justin, I think you need to ride both of them. It is more 'which works better for you'. (or that you lust more). As to 2x the price......as you know better than I do, - a $2000 bike is not half as good as a $4000, much less a 6K vs a 10K. Hell my POLAR keeps better time than a Rolex at $100 vs $3K for the ROLEX (much less a 10K plus gold one).

As we get into which is better and one needs to define what better means to them. Better is not which is faster for it is the legs......Lust makes things better and I am ver good at making up reasons why I need something - just as my wife ;)

As to support on the forum - one of two folks do not constitute a majority. That are only a majority when then talk about themselves and what they like.

YES I AM BIASED BUT I have had the opportuntiy to taste many bikes over the years.. (yes I was slow on all of them)


Interesting discussion. The elephant in the room to me is that I can't see a single area where a Meivici holds a clear advantage over, say, a Crumpton. This has some support within this forum by those who have ridden and even owned both (not me, an important disclaimer).

2x the price.

[Pete Serotta]

Can we agree to disagree and plan on meeting for some of PETE's RED? :beer: :beer:

Please can we refrain from going at each others jugular??? PLEASE


Quote:
Originally Posted by catulle
Go to hell.



Oh my...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93legendti
Oh my...



Quote:
Originally Posted by catulle
...Moreover, with the new found richness in the Orient, the overabundant richness in the Middle East, and those segments of the US and European market profiting from oil, war, and so on, well, there is a great deal of demand for the "most expensive" of anything...
__________________
Riding, not collecting.

[Elefantino]

The elephant in the room ...
Exactly.

[benb]

I would not have considered second guessing Serotta. I know that I'm not competent to do that. My concern is that my fitter may have not been competent either, but may have been under the delusion that he or she was.

The fitter is an intermediary who is built into the Serotta "custom" equation, and has the potential to screw things up in a big way. (Note that I am not saying this was true of the person I worked with before buying my Nove!) I have heard about bad experiences and seen strangely designed bikes that demonstrate this happens.

"Custom" is marketed as being better, and worth the premium. For MOST OF US this is not actually true, for at least two reasons. First, the bell curve demonstrates that the vast majority of us can be successfully fitted onto "stock" sizes (given a reasonably large number of stock sizes). Second, most of us are not sufficiently competent to make good decisions (beyond ephemera like colors and chain hangers) about what we want when offered choices.

Hence, my belief that most of us are better off with stock geometry/designs, both because the design is going to be better and (fortuitously) it's going to be cheaper.

I didn't mean to imply you did or would have.. but I think there are plenty of custom bikes where the buyer asked very specifically for something that may have been foolish, and the builder/factory happily built what they wanted.

Serotta knows what they're doing and they've built lots of custom bikes.. unless the fitter is super incompetent they can correct little mistakes. There was a little mistake made by my fitter.. and Serotta noticed it immediately and went back and forth with him.

You can't just dismiss them cause you're afraid of getting a goofed up bike. There aren't exactly a ton of angry customers screaming about bad Serotta customs.

Personally when I look at how drastically mass produced frames have changed even since I've been riding seriously (only 8 years) the "no one really needs a custom" argument seems weaker and weaker every year. Bush needs to put head tubes on the endangered species list!

[justinf]

Justin, I think you need to ride both of them.

Pete you are right about this. I tried my best to keep that in the forefront.

I'm not equating "best" here. My Concours may still be my favorite, but it's certainly not the most expensive.

It seems to me, though, that the Meivici's cost is driven by the tech and not the market.

[Elefantino]

It seems to me, though, that the Meivici's cost is driven by the tech and not the market.
Both, probably.

The tech determines the cost, and the market determines the profit.

[jimcav]

*can be used as a coupon for $2k off jimcav's meivici in classifieds.
I have not ridden every carbon out there (but many great ones), but i like the meivici more than my prior favorites, and most of my favorite bikes are carbon. In fact, if i had not ridden the meivici more, i'd not have discovered i like it more than my 05 crumpton. so now I am selling both, because i can't afford to keep the meivici, and i'd be annoyed now knowing i preferred the meivici while i sit on some other carbon bike. That said, I like s3 steel more. if i took money out of the equation you'd not see the meivici or the vanilla on the classifieds. but, money aside, you would still see me selling a few bikes, b/c most of the places i'm likely to live in San Diego are smaller, with less space (some don't even have a garage).

jim

[jimcav]

Interesting discussion. The elephant in the room to me is that I can't see a single area where a Meivici holds a clear advantage over, say, a Crumpton. This has some support within this forum by those who have ridden and even owned both (not me, an important disclaimer).

2x the price.
plus a few other carbon bikes i loved. I think you would have to know exactly what you wanted, and then rely on the ability of serotta or Nick to work the carbon to do that thing. I can't compare the current crumpton, mine is 2005, but i like the serotta better. I CAN appreciate differences, truth is i don't need or really utilize those differences for anything other than my personal enjoyment. not a great analogy, but: In terms of military shooting--i can shoot expert marksman with a pistol. i can appreciate a match grade pistol, but unless i put it in a bench rest, I don't really shoot better--i'm the limiting factor, not the pistol.
So, i can feel or appreciate what the meivici can do, but i can't push it to its limits for long at all.

Is it worth the small improvements i feel compared to my former 585 or vxrs, probably not, but they are there. AND, to me they were NOT (worth it), I only bought jack's because it mirrors the vxrs geo, which i love, and was built with the carbon i would have chosen--i would NEVER have purchased it myself (but as it was, it was less than ordering a vxrs). of course now i wish in many ways i had not, but in a way it helps me, just as riding a vanilla and kirk did, to appreciate what is possible. I have never gone from A to B in discomfort on a bike. But now i go with a different level of responsiveness, comfort, and pure fun. It took me moving here and trying a few bikes to realize i really, really prefer bikes with chainstays at 40.5 to 41, that i prefer less stable handling, etc. only you can decide what matters to you and how much it is worth.

i'd actually be leary of a "fit" if i had not ridden as much as i have and tried as much. I had a professional fit at nytro in encinitas ca for my 2nd tri bike--and it was a joke--in hindsight they just sold me what they had, not what i needed. it took awhile to discover that. there was shop then in SD, bikes usa, now gone, they sold serotta, and the fitter there did not inspire me at all--although the serotta catalog made me really want a serotta.
I like serotta, and i may get one again, it is nice to know that when you find a great bike you really enjoy in terms of geo (or if you need custom) you can get the same thing, only better, made in the usa by serotta.

jim

[Dan Le foot]

You can get a Legend out the door at a price that is totally competitive with something like the Look that has been mentioned..

Hmmm. Legend is $4k or $5K
MSRP on a Look 585 is $2800 last time I looked. Shops will deal off the price.
I haven't seen a new Serotta on the road in a while. Lots of Look 585/595
Dan

[saab2000]

Hmmm. Legend is $4k or $5K
MSRP on a Look 585 is $2800 last time I looked. Shops will deal off the price.
I haven't seen a new Serotta on the road in a while. Lots of Look 585/595
Dan


Look gets it. For the price they can't be beaten. My KG381i is pretty effin' good for $750 barely used. Compare that with a Meivici for 10X the price and it does become hard to justify. And the Look ain't made in China either. As much as I love Serotta that's a hard one to swallow.

[benb]

My mistake.. I'd have to drive 50 miles to find a look dealer. Their price on closeout for the 595 w/Chorus is $6200, 555 w/Ultegra for $3000.

May be very different then where you are. I'm assuming the Look is purchased from a shop, not online, since you can't buy a new Serotta online. I've actually seen more Serottas on the road in the last year then Looks... maybe Look is way more popular on the west coast.

But that is my ignorance of Look, I should have said "Legend or CdA".. everywhere I go I see lots of Chinese (not Look) made Carbon frames that cost as much as a Legend though.

[Elefantino]

Hmmm. Legend is $4k or $5K
MSRP on a Look 585 is $2800 last time I looked. Shops will deal off the price.
I haven't seen a new Serotta on the road in a while. Lots of Look 585/595
Dan
I see more Serottas than Looks, but that's not the point.

If you want a great carbon bike and don't want to pay top dollar, you buy a Look.

If you want a Serotta, you buy a Serotta.

Wonderful choices, those.

[saab2000]

My mistake.. I'd have to drive 50 miles to find a look dealer. Their price on closeout for the 595 w/Chorus is $6200, 555 w/Ultegra for $3000.

May be very different then where you are. I'm assuming the Look is purchased from a shop, not online, since you can't buy a new Serotta online. I've actually seen more Serottas on the road in the last year then Looks... maybe Look is way more popular on the west coast.

But that is my ignorance of Look, I should have said "Legend or CdA".. everywhere I go I see lots of Chinese (not Look) made Carbon frames that cost as much as a Legend though.

I have a Look and two Serottae (among others). They are all good. But I am distinctly biased towards race bikes, I and I feel that Look makes a more pure race bike. I would love to try a 2008 carbon HSG. I am sure it is very, very good. But for the $$$$ I simply cannot. It's that simple.

And besides, at the end of the day, it really ain't the bike that makes us faster, if that's what really matters anyway. The top of my racing days occurred on a Grandis and a Peugeot. I wish that I had had a bike as good as my Look. But the better you are the less the bike matters. The slower we are the more it becomes a subconsious excuse.

[1centaur]

I just spent some time looking at the 2008 HSG carbon on this site. Not ridiculous weight for the price, and a level TT in my size, but the low HT certainly is a bold statement of intent, the HT angle's not my taste and I don't like the paint. I think that bike with a more typical HT length for the type of buyer who wants to pay that price and a paint job from 2008 rather than 2005 (sorry, had to say it) or, even better, a choice of 5 solid paint jobs and 5 different decal colors would hit the competitive spot just fine. In fact, in solid white with red decals, a 73 degree HT angle and a 16 HT length and I would be heading to my Serotta dealer. Charge $200 more for the paint upgrade and I'd still do it. I think Serotta's almost there, but misses their target audience by shouting racer boy at that price point. Hello marketing team.

[saab2000]

I think Serotta's almost there, but misses their target audience by shouting racer boy at that price point. Hello marketing team.

Racer Boy is their point. They sell plenty of tall head tube bikes if that's your thing.

[saab2000]

Here's what happens to too long headtubes on Serottae.

[rnhood]

I wish Serrotta had produced the HSG model with the standard geometry available in the early 2000s (before they decided on total custom). Although my bike is a Calfee, it's built right off the 2001 geometry table for a 62 Serrotta and, it fits, feels right and, rides right. Without a doubt, at least in my opinion, this is probably the best thought out geometry in the entire industry. Serrotta had it nailed. Yes, they can still make it as a custom but, it's too bad the HSG didn't inherit this geometry for a competitive priced alternative. I probably should have ordered a CDA before the recent, and rather large, price increase.

[1centaur]

Racer Boy is their point. They sell plenty of tall head tube bikes if that's your thing.

I said price point. Racer boys have lower budgets on average. At that HSG price point you are talking to serious enthusiasts with lots of spending money, on average. That demo is older than racer boy. Easy to race with a 16 HT (57 TT) but difficult to avoid a spacer stack or an ugly stem at 14.5. Designing away from the sweet spot of the market at that price point, IMO.

[saab2000]

I wish Serrotta had produced the HSG model with the standard geometry available in the early 2000s


Word. My CIII (the one with the cutoff headtube) is a mild custom made for racing. Still, it's a not quite as quick as the Look but still very, very acceptable. But I would love to buy a used CIII, 57 HSG-like frameset like my CIII. Just a Cm smaller. Anyway, I would love to test ride a 56 HSG carbon frameset. I really like the more or less bare carbon look, level top tube race bike. But the pricetag is a bit steep.

[saab2000]

I said price point. Racer boys have lower budgets on average.

I agree. Which is why I wish they made one in welded steel. :beer:

[dcwood]

Sandy, Actually Serotta flirted with the concept of a Fierte carbon. As I recall we built a few to prototype. They new there was a market for a less expensive carbon model. People have to realize that US made carbon fiber is very expensive. The process to make the carbon strands alone requires huge amounts of energy just to fuel the high temp furnaces involved in the process. Serotta uses all US made materials. The molding and lay up of the lugs alone is very labor intensive and energy used in the curing precess is costly. The five axis Haas CNC milling machine was not cheap either. And then labor. Skilled labor costs money. Also the machines are US made and the tooling is very expensive. Bottom line is you are getting a totally US made bike built to aero space precision. If any body is riding any Serotta carbon made before Jan. 2008 I machined all the lugs and they were made to the same tolerances as the titanum orthopedic implants that I now manufacture.

[jimcav]

Sandy, Actually Serotta flirted with the concept of a Fierte carbon. As I recall we built a few to prototype. They new there was a market for a less expensive carbon model. People have to realize that US made carbon fiber is very expensive. The process to make the carbon strands alone requires huge amounts of energy just to fuel the high temp furnaces involved in the process. Serotta uses all US made materials. The molding and lay up of the lugs alone is very labor intensive and energy used in the curing precess is costly. The five axis Haas CNC milling machine was not cheap either. And then labor. Skilled labor costs money. Also the machines are US made and the tooling is very expensive. Bottom line is you are getting a totally US made bike built to aero space precision. If any body is riding any Serotta carbon made before Jan. 2008 I machined all the lugs and they were made to the same tolerances as the titanum orthopedic implants that I now manufacture.
makes me wish (more) that i could keep it.
jim

[dcwood]

Jim, I hope you have ejoyed it.

[djg]

I just spent some time looking at the 2008 HSG carbon on this site. Not ridiculous weight for the price, and a level TT in my size, but the low HT certainly is a bold statement of intent, the HT angle's not my taste and I don't like the paint. I think that bike with a more typical HT length for the type of buyer who wants to pay that price and a paint job from 2008 rather than 2005 (sorry, had to say it) or, even better, a choice of 5 solid paint jobs and 5 different decal colors would hit the competitive spot just fine. In fact, in solid white with red decals, a 73 degree HT angle and a 16 HT length and I would be heading to my Serotta dealer. Charge $200 more for the paint upgrade and I'd still do it. I think Serotta's almost there, but misses their target audience by shouting racer boy at that price point. Hello marketing team.

I don't know if this matters all that much, but you might check one out in person. I don't love the look of the bike in the picture, but I've seen a couple at the LBS and they look really good up close and 3D -- just personal preference in any case, but I think that the sense of difference would hold up pretty well.

[swoop]

i am a total punter. i suck pretty bad on a bike... but i've never ridden a bike that fit the way i wanted it to, in any material... that i couldn't love.

the things that have ruled a bike out for me have always been geometry and poor construction. i don't have any experiences that match a bike to cost... but see a direct path between alignment and geometry and quality. plenty of mass produced bikes both pass and fail in this department. most pass.

so when i have a bike that fits right and is well aligned... it makes no difference to me what it made out of. that's just different spices on food that's already perfect. i do like a certain wheelbase and front center and stiffness but i've only ever ridden one bike be not stiff enough (and early dragonfly that wasn't mine).

i think any guy making a bike is damned if they do and damned if they don't. and i think once a bike fits, its never better than the guy riding it.

[Sandy]

Sandy, Actually Serotta flirted with the concept of a Fierte carbon. As I recall we built a few to prototype. They new there was a market for a less expensive carbon model. People have to realize that US made carbon fiber is very expensive. The process to make the carbon strands alone requires huge amounts of energy just to fuel the high temp furnaces involved in the process. Serotta uses all US made materials. The molding and lay up of the lugs alone is very labor intensive and energy used in the curing precess is costly. The five axis Haas CNC milling machine was not cheap either. And then labor. Skilled labor costs money. Also the machines are US made and the tooling is very expensive. Bottom line is you are getting a totally US made bike built to aero space precision. If any body is riding any Serotta carbon made before Jan. 2008 I machined all the lugs and they were made to the same tolerances as the titanum orthopedic implants that I now manufacture.

Thank you very much for your very illuminating post. I often have wondered how much it really costs to produce carbon tubes versus steel and tiatnium. I realized that there is a difference in the actual material cost but I wondered if it could really be that much. I see that there is a labor intensive/high energy useage per what you say. I did think that molding and layup of the lugs would be labor intensive. Machining the lugs would necessitate precision type work.

On the other hand, made in the USA only carbon bike producers must have similar production and raw material costs. Certainly carbon bikes are made in the USA that are sold substantially cheaper by some highly respected builders- some of whom are very small- even compared to Serotta. Perhaps Serotta could develop a high quality carbon bike that would not be so labor/energy intensive- perhaps a different way of using lugs to join the tubes, or no lugs at all, which I know would be very expensive for the necessary molds to do such.

Is it simply true that there is no carbon fiber technology that exists to produce bikes competitive (not as cheap) to those made overseas? Potential cyclists would pay more for a Serotta but only a certain amount more. Is it simply not part of their model which works for them? Produce m units and make a certain profit margin per unit and total profit might be better than to produce more than m units if the additional units profit margin per unit does not add total profit to the bottom line. There is of course the real world problem of plant capacity, both the carbon facility and the production facility at Saratoga Springs, and how it is best to use that capacity.There must be optimal useage of both, whatever that is now and will be in the future. Perhaps we will see Serotta built stems and bars and posts... in the not too distant future.

Certainly the Serotta Management Team will try to increase sales of existing bikes, but I would certainly think that changes in models would be in the back of their minds too. I of course am thinking out loud with no real knowledge of Serotta and even less real knowledge of bicycle production. Probably a foolish thing to do.

I enjoyed your most informative post. THANKS!!

Hope that I don't ever need any of your orthopedic implants!! :) :) How about brain implants. Some here think I need a new one or possibly even two! :banana: :banana:


Sandy

[jeffb]

Some all carbon Fiertes were made. My LBS has one. I have never asked about the price.

[bostondrunk]

I just wish they'd make the Legend more affordable. Me want one. :(

[Sandy]

Some all carbon Fiertes were made. My LBS has one. I have never asked about the price.

An all carbon Fierte? Are you sure? I would like to know the price of that one and its specs. That would be very informative and most interesting. How long has that bike been there?


Sandy

[benb]

On the other hand, made in the USA only carbon bike producers must have similar production and raw material costs. Certainly carbon bikes are made in the USA that are sold substantially cheaper by some highly respected builders- some of whom are very small- even compared to Serotta. Perhaps Serotta could develop a high quality carbon bike that would not be so labor/energy intensive- perhaps a different way of using lugs to join the tubes, or no lugs at all, which I know would be very expensive for the necessary molds to do such.

Is it simply true that there is no carbon fiber technology that exists to produce bikes competitive (not as cheap) to those made overseas? Potential cyclists would pay more for a Serotta but only a certain amount more. Is it simply not part of their model which works for them? Produce m units and make a certain profit margin per unit and total profit might be better than to produce more than m units if the additional units profit margin per unit does not add total profit to the bottom line. There is of course the real world problem of plant capacity, both the carbon facility and the production facility at Saratoga Springs, and how it is best to use that capacity.There must be optimal useage of both, whatever that is now and will be in the future. Perhaps we will see Serotta built stems and bars and posts... in the not too distant future.


Just go find some BLS information comparing manufacturing wages in the United States vs. China or Taiwan.

10X manufacturing cost difference for the bike made in the US would be conservative. Chinese manufacturing hourly wages are not even measured in dollars.. they're measured in cents.. the difference may be less for someone highly skilled who can operate CNC machinery, etc.. but it is still huge.

And the whole point of the overseas bikes is they are *not* custom, they're usually not available in the same number of frame sizes as a Serotta, and they are much more likely to have cost saving measures such as exact same chainstays/seatstays on every size, same fork on every size, suboptimal geometry to reduce # of unique carbon parts, etc..

It is scary enough for those of us in engineering, etc.. and the cost difference is nowhere near 10x for us. AFAICT it's somewhere between 2-3x for my job. (software engineer) You can go a little cheaper then that by going to countries less well known for outsourcing... but the quality will be even worse.

I posted this last year.. if dcwood was the only one doing this job then this must be him. Thanks for answering all those questions last year!

http://bsquared.net/2007/may/20070518/pictures/picture-9.jpg

[Pete Serotta]

Sandy carbon is not like a STEEL tube or even a Ti tube. It is made up of many materials, layer type and setup processes, different bonding material and even techniques, etc.... The Serotta tubes are multiple times more expensive than most of the stuff that comes from CHINA/Taiwan.

This does not mean that other folks can not make the same tubing - they just don't. As to what the difference is to the rider...I have to leave that to more of the subject matter experts at SEROTTA.

If Ben and team could get the SAME material and results for less (with same specs, quality (not that CHINA quality is bad) and turn around time) HE would do it and have a greater profit for his cost would go down)

Very few things are black and white and much of it has to be dependent on the reputation of the builder.

Can you tell the difference between a HSG/Meivici and a GIANT/TREK/SPECIALIZED. You have to try them and see what you like considering your LUST, RIDE LIKES, and BUDGET.

The steel is different on your CAYMAN than a 350Z< More goes into engineering, safety, brand awareness, among other things. You or I would be just as fast in the Z as the CAYMAN. The CAYMAN costs more than the Z for the materials used and the reputation (as well as demand ) Steel strength, design/implementation of active/passive safetly, engine placement, etc...adds to costs

THE Z is a very nice car and will do everything on the road for 90%+ of the drivers (and will be cheaper to maintain and repair) so why do we buy PORSCHES? or expensive watches, or huge homes, or ......... :p :p

What I an trying to say is that it can not be simplified to just the tube costs. From what I hear a FUGI carbon frame (which is a nice riding frame, SPOKES has one) costs the MFT around $400 the last I heard. Yes it is built in CHINA...In fact one of the pictures I saw in a trade journal had LOOK, FUGI, SPECIALIZED. GIANT frame in the same factory. Nothing wrong with that either, for I am sure they are built to different specs. Just looks at all the electronics that come out of the same factory with different labels on them. SAME goes for clothes.

And what does all this mean? I really do not know and that is why I buy most things based on the reputation of the MFT and the Merchant. :confused: :confused:


Thank you very much for your very illuminating post. I often have wondered how much it really costs to produce carbon tubes versus steel and tiatnium. I realized that there is a difference in the actual material cost but I wondered if it could really be that much. I see that there is a labor intensive/high energy useage per what you say. I did think that molding and layup of the lugs would be labor intensive. Machining the lugs would necessitate precision type work.

On the other hand, made in the USA only carbon bike producers must have similar production and raw material costs. Certainly carbon bikes are made in the USA that are sold substantially cheaper by some highly respected builders- some of whom are very small- even compared to Serotta. Perhaps Serotta could develop a high quality carbon bike that would not be so labor/energy intensive- perhaps a different way of using lugs to join the tubes, or no lugs at all, which I know would be very expensive for the necessary molds to do such.

Is it simply true that there is no carbon fiber technology that exists to produce bikes competitive (not as cheap) to those made overseas? Potential cyclists would pay more for a Serotta but only a certain amount more. Is it simply not part of their model which works for them? Produce m units and make a certain profit margin per unit and total profit might be better than to produce more than m units if the additional units profit margin per unit does not add total profit to the bottom line. There is of course the real world problem of plant capacity, both the carbon facility and the production facility at Saratoga Springs, and how it is best to use that capacity.There must be optimal useage of both, whatever that is now and will be in the future. Perhaps we will see Serotta built stems and bars and posts... in the not too distant future.

Certainly the Serotta Management Team will try to increase sales of existing bikes, but I would certainly think that changes in models would be in the back of their minds too. I of course am thinking out loud with no real knowledge of Serotta and even less real knowledge of bicycle production. Probably a foolish thing to do.

I enjoyed your most informative post. THANKS!!

Hope that I don't ever need any of your orthopedic implants!! :) :) How about brain implants. Some here think I need a new one or possibly even two! :banana: :banana:


Sandy

[catulle]

I can't help thinking of the Swiss watch industry before Hayek. I'm in a rush so I'll make it very short. The Japanese were about to hammer the last nail on the Swiss watch industry coffin during the seventies. The reason, well, lower costs and better productivity. Hayek refused to accept the facts and engineered a system of production and marketing that rescued the Swiss watch industry with a competitive product: Swatch.


The rest is history, as they say. Hayek destroyed the paradigm of cheap labor costs and materials. It ain't easy, though, that's for sure, atmo. Gotta go....

[dcwood]

I need to thank benb for the wonderful photo. Serotta Pete is spot on with his info too.

[benb]

Wonderful is a stretch considering I failed to have the foresight to get both you & the work in focus!

[Sandy]

I want to thank you and all the other posters who not only provided excellent insight and analysis but stuck almost exclusively to the area in the initial post and communicated it with respect for all. I learned a lot and really enjoyed the posts.


Sandy

[Dan Le foot]

Serotta owns a carbon production facility producing tubing, forks, rear stays, and lugs (to be machined). There exists the Serotta Mangement Team, "..charged with elevating the Serotta experience.." The custom carbon MeiVici, with its SE and GS models, is the flagship road Serotta offering, but clearly too expensive for most potential Serotta owners. There is the non-custom HSG carbon, but that is an aggressively designed bike, offered built with a minimum price of $6400. The non-custom Fierte is available only in carbon/ti or steel.

Clearly Serotta’s focus, at least for now, is innovation and production of carbon framesets. A reasonable natural progression would be a non-custom carbon model that is more affordable than what Serotta produces now- perhaps a carbon Fierte SE model and a carbon Fierte GS model, with the GS being a price point model that would make Serotta carbon bikes more appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers. Affordable Serotta carbon non-custom bikes on the floor at the local Serotta dealer for immediate purchase would be most attractive.

I realize reasons why Serotta may not produce the bikes as mentioned above, but if Serotta and its Management Team want to expand Serotta’s sales and customer base, the above is most reasonable and natural.

What do you think about the possibility?


Sarbon Sandy

Hi Sandy.
I was trying to estimate how many framesets Serotta sells annually. I did a Google search and came across this interesting article. http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2008/feb/24/0224_outlookbike/
The company is doing about 3000 bikes a year with a stated growth of 10%-15% annually. May be hard to do in this economy after the latest price increase with the existing product line.
Here is another growth possibility. What do you think of Serotta using some of the excess capacity by introducing a line of after market CF products i.e. bars, seatposts, forks, stems etc.? Ben has 100 existing dealers who may be willing to carry the line. The Serotta name could allow the line to carry a premium price.
Dan

[dcwood]

No prob ben, I just went for a ride. I had on a few extra lbs. in that photo.

[Brian Smith]

DCWOOD POWA!

That's him in the photo, shootin' a blank.

[dcwood]

Geeee!

[swoop]

sandy.. go price out fully custom carbon overseas. there's some german cats that do it....
maybe have walser track bike made.... not custom but he can make it fit.
it costs what it costs.

there some british cats too.. buts its just a tube kit and some glue.... slwata was using the same tube kit. i think craig made himself one before he settled on making pure aluminum race bikes... but you'll have to ask the jerk.


what does it matter what a serotta costs.. you either spend the dough or not. the lamenting has no function.

parlee and crumpton and a bunch of folks can work you up a custom carbon. calfee has ones ata price point too (luna?). you can paint a serotta logo on it if it makes you happy.
talk to lance johnson at tete le course about temple or.... you're going to spend between 5 and 8k on the frame.
a serotta costs what it costs. i just don't get the point of this ...

[Sandy]

sandy.. go price out fully custom carbon overseas. there's some german cats that do it....
maybe have walser track bike made.... not custom but he can make it fit.
it costs what it costs.

there some british cats too.. buts its just a tube kit and some glue.... slwata was using the same tube kit. i think craig made himself one before he settled on making pure aluminum race bikes... but you'll have to ask the jerk.


what does it matter what a serotta costs.. you either spend the dough or not. the lamenting has no function.

parlee and crumpton and a bunch of folks can work you up a custom carbon. calfee has ones ata price point too (luna?). you can paint a serotta logo on it if it makes you happy.
talk to lance johnson at tete le course about temple or.... you're going to spend between 5 and 8k on the frame.
a serotta costs what it costs. i just don't get the point of this ...

Almost 4,000 views and 135 posts later, someone must get the point of the thread. Lamenting what? Clearly a Serotta costs what it costs and every individual decides if he or she will spend the money for it or not. That is hardly the question here. Carbon bike production/sales is the name of the game presently. Serotta has an aggressively designed carbon model designed for cyclists like you- the HSG. It has a carbon model, the MeiVici, designed for cyclists like me and like you. The carbon HSG is hardly inexpensive and the MeiVici is very expensive. There is a tremendous volume of carbon bikes sold, some built overseas, some here. I was wondering if Serotta was going to produce a carbon bike that is more affordable to a greater number of potential Serotta purchasers. I lament nothing and understand the dynamics of purchasing a Serotta or any other bike. Did you really miss the point?

"..you can paint a Serotta logo on it if it makes you happy." I recently bought an all steel CDA. I don't like many decals/logos on a bike. I have no Serotta decals on the bike anywhere and one small "S" on the ht. Thus far, I am extremely pleased with the bike. The ride of the bike clearly makes me happy.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Hi Sandy.
I was trying to estimate how many framesets Serotta sells annually. I did a Google search and came across this interesting article. http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2008/feb/24/0224_outlookbike/
The company is doing about 3000 bikes a year with a stated growth of 10%-15% annually. May be hard to do in this economy after the latest price increase with the existing product line.
Here is another growth possibility. What do you think of Serotta using some of the excess capacity by introducing a line of after market CF products i.e. bars, seatposts, forks, stems etc.? Ben has 100 existing dealers who may be willing to carry the line. The Serotta name could allow the line to carry a premium price.
Dan

I mentioned stems, bars, and seatposts elsewhere in the thread. Serotta already is producing its own forks and seat stays. Probably a big reason why it no longer offer frames but only framesets- with Serotta forks. I would certainly think that bars, seatposts, and stems would be a natural. Not only could Serotta sell complete bikes with Serotta carbon bars, stems, rear stays, seatposts,and forks, but could but could sell theses parts individually too, as you said. That could be a real growth area I would think and might make a great deal of sense. If you remember, Serotta was showing some of their bikes with Zipp stems, bars, and wheels, if I remember correctly. Think that it was the MeiVici.


Sandy

[jeffb]

Sandy, just checked this thread again. My LBS in fact does have an all carbon Fierte. My understanding is Serotta made an experimental run and sold the frames to various dealers. To my knowledge, Serotta is not offering all carbon Fiertes. But a few do exist.

[Sandy]

Sandy, just checked this thread again. My LBS in fact does have an all carbon Fierte. My understanding is Serotta made an experimental run and sold the frames to various dealers. To my knowledge, Serotta is not offering all carbon Fiertes. But a few do exist.

Very interesting. Would you know the list price? Were they frames, framesets, or complete bikes?

Thanks for the response.


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

Sandy, just checked this thread again. My LBS in fact does have an all carbon Fierte. My understanding is Serotta made an experimental run and sold the frames to various dealers. To my knowledge, Serotta is not offering all carbon Fiertes. But a few do exist.


Cyclesport in PARKRIDGE NJ has one of the floor for sale. Serial 00001 red decals, 54cm call Mike at 201-391-5269 :D

[Brian Smith]

I almost don't want to say it, but another few were built this week, probably already spoken for.
I can't recall where they're all being shipped to, but ask your dealers.

[Sandy]

I almost don't want to say it, but another few were built this week, probably already spoken for.
I can't recall where they're all being shipped to, but ask your dealers.

I would think that Serotta would want to communicate this to potential purchasers but I realize this is probably a test program, especially since there has been no communication of this by Serotta itself until your post. The forum is a great asset I would think in communicating about new models etc.

It might be beneficial to communicate prices, specs,.....But perhaps Serotta is not ready to do that. If in fact, Serotta is testing a Fierte carbon bike, which it appears to be doing, then I genuinely hope it is very successful and a more detailed launch will be made. I also hope that Serotta is marketing those few bikes well....

Best to Serotta in this endeavor and everywhere else!!


Sandy

[Brian Smith]

I would think that Serotta would want to communicate this to potential purchasers
Sandy

Sandy - They might, just pick up the phone and ask 'em.
I'm just posting here at home, way off the clock, like usual.
Please don't confuse my posts here for Serotta communique.
They can do much better than that!

The best people to contact about Serotta products are Serotta sales persons and marketing staff, not the odd production employee, nor Goodwill Outreach All-Around Rocker PETE, nor brand fans found online here. Those people have those jobs because they're the better at it than the rest of us. Food for thought.

Come to think of it, PETE has already provided a lead on the Fierte Carbon including a phone number. That's 10X better than what I've done, you see!

[Sandy]

Thanks for the info. Your forum communications are always excellent, probably only exceeded by your cycling abilities from what I hear. I am going to challenge you to a race up to Desolation Lake- you on your fixed gear and me in my Cayman S. I think that I will win that one! :)


Sandy

[h5gcarb0n]

i got a hsg carbon but iam not even in my 20s yet so that might be why i could fit the bike i also think there are very few 20 year olds that are willing to part with 4.5k+ for a bike what i think is the best thing i the way a lugged carbon bike looks but that is just my opinion

[tylercheung]

I'm not sure if i got the specifics right, but most of the world's carbon fiber is made in Asia, aside from a handful of US builders (serota, seven, calfee), and Time in France. The Taiwanese are the largest producers, and I think the major cost for them is developing the molds - once that's done, they can just pump out the frames en-masse. I think all the italian brands are made in Taiwan, even the high end ones, and there are now discount companies (pedal force) that buy the same frames being sold by the Italians at a huge markup, and sell the same damn things for < $1,000.

This could be why serotta doesn't compete in the high end, but it's probably a market-changing phenomenon on the low end, and would be worth watching to see how it all plays out. Knowing this, I'm sort of at a loss why someone would spend meivici=like prices for a Specialized Tarmac Pro 2000 or whatever the top of that line is.

[1centaur]

Top end Colnago and Merckx CF frames are not made in Asia. I think top end Looks are not either, and I know there are a couple of other examples.

Lower on the totem pole, it comes down to production supervision and trade secrets. I think frame shapes are often copied very closely, and that there are some exact frames coming out as well (probably fewer than we imagine), but if we believe one steel frame is different from another even though it uses the same round tubes from the same manufacturer, we should also think CF frames differ when layup and composition differences are potentially very different.

I think you mis-wrote when you said Serotta does not compete in the high end, since they help define the high end. I agree it's harder for Specialized to distinguish its frames from the generic Asian output, but they are not speaking to those of us who follow that trend yet, they are speaking mostly to the LBS customer. Eventually, they will have to emphasize that not all Asian frames are created equal.

Serotta's opportunity remains in the medium-high category where they could use the opposite of the Asian-effect, call it the Meivici effect, to make people think they're getting the Meivici for less by taking fewer paint and customization options (though perhaps more than they have now).

[tylercheung]

ugh yeah, i meant low end, not quite awake yet...

kinda wish they would offer a frame in the gunnar-level price range...sigh...maybe a new Fierte RE or CDA RE ("recession edition")

[1centaur]

I think there are plenty of good choices in lower end carbon. Serotta would have a tough time establishing a perceived competitive advantage in that price range. Their brand image is about customization and top construction quality - that's one way they coexist in an LBS with lower end brands.

[mike p]

I love serotta, or what the company and vision once were. I curently have 3 serottas. A CRL, a CSI and a classique. All stock geos and all great bikes. One I wish I had but have not been able to find yet is an older all Ti legend. I love that serotta supports this forum and allows almost uncensored discussion. Ben, serotta pete and company thank you very much!

That said serotta bikes have not interested me at all in quite a few years. No level TT steel or carbon, no lugged steel, the newer legend looks like crap and most bikes in the line up I'd have to take out a second morgage to afford(not unique to serotta). Also you see more goofy fitted serottas than just about any other bike out there! Customer service is wacked also. Going through a dealer to ask questions dosen't help. If I paid for a serotta I should be able to get it repainted by serotta cheaper than a JB paint job. Somewere out there serotta lost what made serotta a great co. and a great bike. Huffy, Davis, Legends, Coor's, not wacked out looking bikes that cost more than cars.

Mike

[djg]

I love serotta, or what the company and vision once were. I curently have 3 serottas. A CRL, a CSI and a classique. All stock geos and all great bikes. One I wish I had but have not been able to find yet is an older all Ti legend. I love that serotta supports this forum and allows almost uncensored discussion. Ben, serotta pete and company thank you very much!

That said serotta bikes have not interested me at all in quite a few years. No level TT steel or carbon, no lugged steel, the newer legend looks like crap and most bikes in the line up I'd have to take out a second morgage to afford(not unique to serotta). Also you see more goofy fitted serottas than just about any other bike out there! Customer service is wacked also. Going through a dealer to ask questions dosen't help. If I paid for a serotta I should be able to get it repainted by serotta cheaper than a JB paint job. Somewere out there serotta lost what made serotta a great co. and a great bike. Huffy, Davis, Legends, Coor's, not wacked out looking bikes that cost more than cars.

Mike

Well, heck, I hear ya on the paint, but honestly . . . I'm pretty sure that they'll build any of the custom bikes they offer -- including an all Ti legend -- with a level top tube if that's what you prefer, and they've recently introduced two new stock models at very favorable pricing for quality made-in-the-usa frames. They sell frames to all sorts of folks and I don't believe for a second that all trained fitters are created equal but, really, if you find a decent fitter and have a sensible discussion and make it clear that you want a proper race bike, then that's what you'll get.

The HSG is extremely pricey when compared with Chinese-built carbon (much of which is junk but some of which is really good stuff built to good spec), but that's a given. End of season close-out on a French or Algerian-built Look? Maybe very tempting. OTOH, if you're racing it, the Serotta crash protection has to be mighty tempting and . . . you know, checked the price on a US-made custom Parlee lately?

BTW, Pete, Ben, Russ? I know this started as a thread about CF bikes but why the heck are there no pictures of Ti bikes from the Heritage Series on the site? Here's mine, but you can do better: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=53362&highlight=Suisse

[Pete Serotta]

:) :)
That said serotta bikes have not interested me at all in quite a few years. No level TT steel or carbon, no lugged steel, the newer legend looks like crap and most bikes in the line up I'd have to take out a second morgage to afford(not unique to serotta). Also you see more goofy fitted serottas than just about any other bike out there! Customer service is wacked also. Going through a dealer to ask questions dosen't help. If I paid for a serotta I should be able to get it repainted by serotta cheaper than a JB paint job. Somewere out there serotta lost what made serotta a great co. and a great bike. Huffy, Davis, Legends, Coor's, not wacked out looking bikes that cost more than cars.

Mike


Mike, You can have a level top tube in CARBON and in ti/ AS to lugged steel, Ben is working on Project 10. That is all I know about it...Maybe we will hear more from him or Mr. Porter at the show.

On many of your other items - lets have some wine and discuss. Customer service is VERY important to Ben and the team. As to paint...why should SEROTTA be cheaper than Joe Bell? (I am really anxious to dig into that one for Bedford has JB and Serotta painting his bikes...Last weekend I saw a SEROTTA painted BEDFORD) Bill up at SEROTTA does not need to take a back seat to anyone in painting)

Feel free to email me or discuss here. THANKS

[Charles M]

I think when people make loads of (sometimes very inaccurate) generalizations, attempting to lump carbon bikes together, and then think that guys at the top of the food chain like Serotta and Parlee can't make a very good bike at a reasonable price because their normal bikes are fairly expensive are just mislead...

Parlee showed, with the Z4, what happens when you take the time to spec materials and build process carefully. The Z4 is a fantastic bike at a good price and gets in the face (ride quality weight wise) of VERY expensive production frames despite costing LESS.

Is it a 1000 or 2000 dollar cheap asian frame built to lower specs / very simple lay up and low man hours and with lower grade materials?

No.


Is it a Z1SL or Meivici built to exceptionally high specs with complex tube / lay up with exceptionally high grade materials and very high man hour count?

No.

But the Z4 is a great example of what can be done the a manufacturer takes a very good design and puts it in the hands of cheaper labor instead of doing what several high volume guys do and worry about production cost first and weight and stiffness equal second. The z4 is more complex than a lot of other production bikes but not as complex as their top of the line...

And it takes NOTHING away from the Z1SL.



Simply put, there's a tremendous difference in cost and time between 1500 lower end frames and the frames made at the genuinley high end.


There's not a single monocoque bike in my top 5 carbon rides and the very best are ALL tube set and lug or wrapped joint (or combination) bikes...

Monocoque offers greater pure ability to build, but it's simply not used to near it's capacity yet.


Weight and stiffness are relatively easy when it, along with low production cost is your goal.


Add reasonable durability and ride quality while keeping the weight down and the stiffness up and packaging it in one of a kind custom geometry and that's a whole other story...

AND if you asked for a bike that did all that to be built in Asia, it would cost 2-3-4 times more than bargain carbon from the same place


There is a substantial difference in ride at the level of the Z1SL, Crumpton sl, Meivici level versus most anyones top end bikes. Colnago do a great job with the C series and there are a few others (like the Z4) that get close.

The Colnago EPS is a FANTASTIC bike. But if I asked for it in custom geometry and wanted a special tube set to change the ride a bit, they would have to go to ATR and have some guy stop making a suspension member for the Ferrari F1 car to run me a different down tube... poof- you have a $10,000 frame (if they would even consider doing it).




Lumping carbon together seems like it should come from one of three groups.



1. larger volume producers of mold based bikes that want you to believe the bikes they are knocking out at a rate of 3-4-10 to 1 versus the custom carbon guys, have a product that is just as good (or better).

2. people who just have not spent adequate time riding all the different kinds of bikes and are making a guess versus actually spending the time and money to get the experiance in order to comment more accurately. (and that doesn't mean borrowing someone elses custom carbon abd thinking you really have a clue)

3. lovable, passionate metal guys that can't make the tech and investment leap to carbon and imply they have a competitive product (weight, stiffness and ride quality combined) when despite some fantastic artisan tallent, the bikes do not have the same performance and ride quality at the same weight.


YES there are some better metal bikes than some carbon. I love my Lynskey for instance... but at the very peak of what can be done with materials now... at the very tip top of the performance game (weight, stiffness AND RIDE quality combined). Carbon wins...


And there is a substantial difference between the bikes you get from someone spitting low - mid level raw materials from a mold and guys like Serotta, Parlee, Crumpton, Cyfac and even the best from Colnago, Time and a few others...

[jpw]

If Serotta's frames were not affordable Serotta would either lower the price or stop making them. Neither is happening and so they are affordable, but not by those who either can't afford them or choose to spend their money elsewhere. A beautifully simple analysis.

If someone really wants a Meivici they will sacrifice somewhere else. I suggest selling the auto. :beer:

[alancw3]

If Serotta's frames were not affordable Serotta would either lower the price or stop making them. Neither is happening and so they are affordable, but not by those who either can't afford them or choose to spend their money elsewhere. A beautifully simple analysis.

If someone really wants a Meivici they will sacrifice somewhere else. I suggest selling the auto. :beer:

no#1. who cares if serotta makes a more affordalbe frame! i don't!

no#2. if serotta is not competitive with other builders they will go the way of the way of the dinosuar. i love serotta for providing us this forum but busines is business and you asked the question! there only so many people willing to buy ultra top end products, when that no longer exists then guess what the company can no longer exist or must change it's ways. i am sure that serotta is well aware ofr this equation.

[djg]

YES there are some better metal bikes than some carbon. I love my Lynskey for instance... but at the very peak of what can be done with materials now... at the very tip top of the performance game (weight, stiffness AND RIDE quality combined). Carbon wins...


And there is a substantial difference between the bikes you get from someone spitting low - mid level raw materials from a mold and guys like Serotta, Parlee, Crumpton, Cyfac and even the best from Colnago, Time and a few others...

Interesting post . . . I sort of gravitated to this point. I think most of us assume that Serotta is doing a heck of a lot more with CF than anybody might expect on a budget Chinese monocoque frame and that what Serotta does is expensive -- more labor (in addition to better compensated skilled labor), higher materials costs, etc. I'd guess the same for Parlee, Crumpton, and some of the others you mentioned. For somebody willing to pay the freight for the latest/greatest, then more power to 'em.

But really, what, besides a bit of weight, do I win in going from a 4k Legend (or a nearly 4K Spectrum ultralight, etc.) to a 7, 8, or 9K ne plus ultra CF frame? I get that the CF frame can give me both excellent handling and light weight. But for a guy like me -- let's say riding a "54" or so (54.5 cm top tube in my case), I'm pretty darn sure Serotta and several others can build me a solid race frame that does everything I could ask in terms of handling, acceleration, stability in hard corners (maybe that's more just more handling), and that they can do it at less than 3 lbs. Let's say 2.8 without raising any questions about the performance or durability of the frame at all. So let's say that for another 3 or 4k, I can take 1/2 lb off the fame weight -- maybe 3/4 lb -- and still get great handling and road feel without other baggage or compromises. Maybe I want that and don't mind the extra scratch at all. Or maybe I think I'd rather have the legend and a set of lightweights (assuming I'm not buying the top of everything). For that matter, my buddy's steel Pegoretti Marcelo came in at right about 3 lbs. I get that there are all sorts of things one can do with carbon, in principle, but what I'm not sure about is the sense that there's some particular set of performance characteristics people understand, and agree are good, and want to optimize with carbon layup that they cannot do with metal. Honestly, I think that my HSG Ti is a great bike. I can understand somebody saying that they'd rather have something that felt just like that, and rode just like that, but weighed a pound less, but other than that, what is it that a carbon bike is supposed to do differently? I've never had a Meivici or a Parlee or a Crumpton or a VXRS, so maybe the answer is that I have to pony up to find out what the difference is. But I have been on a few carbon bikes, and owned one for a bit, and I have to wonder what else I want my bike to do.

[maddog17]

would anyone feel that Serotta is "selling out" to produce a cheap/cheaper carbon frame set just to get into that market and get more of their bikes on the road? maybe at some point they will design/produce a cheaper frameset, but i think they may hang back and see how Parlee does with the Z4. if that proves successful, maybe we'll start to see the Serotta's.

[Charles M]

Interesting post . . .

But really, what, besides a bit of weight..... .



There's a lot going on within the carbon tubes used by the best guys...


The Parlee and Crumpton here are not only lighter than any metal I've ever had. But more directed to your post... They both have equal or better stiffness AND soak up vibes better and are easier handling than any metal bike I have ever had regardless of weight even in the same custom geometry.


There's more to it than "just" weight.


Butting a metal tube set and playing with it's shape can change the way it flexes in different directions, but it doesn't change the way it passes vibes much...

Take different types of carbon tubes (wound / wrapped / manufactured using some of the far more expensive and time consuming methods like Serotta are doing and like Edge is doing for Parlee and crumpton) and it's just a different gig than virtually anything done with metal tubes.

Fiber type / orientation / variable wall thickness, in-molded support structures... what can happen in what looks like a simple round carbon tube is just way beyond anything anyone is really doing with metal.


There's also more ride adjusting available in the hand wrapped joints and lugged joints as it relates to stiffness and vibe damping in carbon versus Metal.

That said, I can say that I have never had a better all metal bike than either Serotta's Ottrot or Seven's Elium Race or IF's crown... These are all stunning bikes and better than any of the bikes that I have ever had that didn't use metal at just the lugs.


I'm not gonna get in a pissing contest here as my first and most important point is to simply love bikes.

I would jab myself in the eye with a stick to get at something as beautiful as what Sasha and Kelly are putting together. There's more visible craftsmanship and aesthetic available from metal... I loved my trip to Lynskey and that bike has seen several carbon bikes come and go... I've also had custom steel and aluminum.


I love bikes, all kinds of bikes but I'm not so vested in any one type that I can't call it like I feel and see it. I think some of the carbon flaming that can happen here is pure biased bs(I don't mean you personally at all DJG)


But I also value all around performance as well as beauty. (thats just me!) And I think Carbon can be EXTREMELY beautiful as well. I believe there is some classic style options that people just haven't played with yet to the fullest. especially in lugged carbon bikes ...

I've seen custom lug work and letter inlay that's just insane.


Strictly back to performance character though, I don't see anyone building a metal bike that weighs what my Parlee or Crumpton weighs, has the same or better stiffness and soaks up vibration better.


I don't really have an arguement for people willing to sacrifice one performance character or another and then imply that others should share their value system. I certainly don't think I'm the man to tell others what monetary value they should place on things...


What I'm saying is that when I want the best combination of performance characteristics, right now, Carbon Fiber wins.

And not all carbon is the same...

[1centaur]

It will be no surprise that I agree with pez on this one.

Stiff and comfortable, and light. And the comfort is not from flex, it's from a different way vibrations roll through carbon.

Yes you can get all good road bikes to DO just about the same thing in about the same time, but you can also make a BMW and a Subaru go 0-60 in about the same time, yet they are reputed to feel very different in the process. The more you think in terms of function the less you care about materials. The more you think in terms of sensations, the more you care about materials.

[Sandy]

Interesting post . . . I sort of gravitated to this point. I think most of us assume that Serotta is doing a heck of a lot more with CF than anybody might expect on a budget Chinese monocoque frame and that what Serotta does is expensive -- more labor (in addition to better compensated skilled labor), higher materials costs, etc. I'd guess the same for Parlee, Crumpton, and some of the others you mentioned. For somebody willing to pay the freight for the latest/greatest, then more power to 'em.

But really, what, besides a bit of weight, do I win in going from a 4k Legend (or a nearly 4K Spectrum ultralight, etc.) to a 7, 8, or 9K ne plus ultra CF frame? I get that the CF frame can give me both excellent handling and light weight. But for a guy like me -- let's say riding a "54" or so (54.5 cm top tube in my case), I'm pretty darn sure Serotta and several others can build me a solid race frame that does everything I could ask in terms of handling, acceleration, stability in hard corners (maybe that's more just more handling), and that they can do it at less than 3 lbs. Let's say 2.8 without raising any questions about the performance or durability of the frame at all. So let's say that for another 3 or 4k, I can take 1/2 lb off the fame weight -- maybe 3/4 lb -- and still get great handling and road feel without other baggage or compromises. Maybe I want that and don't mind the extra scratch at all. Or maybe I think I'd rather have the legend and a set of lightweights (assuming I'm not buying the top of everything). For that matter, my buddy's steel Pegoretti Marcelo came in at right about 3 lbs. I get that there are all sorts of things one can do with carbon, in principle, but what I'm not sure about is the sense that there's some particular set of performance characteristics people understand, and agree are good, and want to optimize with carbon layup that they cannot do with metal. Honestly, I think that my HSG Ti is a great bike. I can understand somebody saying that they'd rather have something that felt just like that, and rode just like that, but weighed a pound less, but other than that, what is it that a carbon bike is supposed to do differently? I've never had a Meivici or a Parlee or a Crumpton or a VXRS, so maybe the answer is that I have to pony up to find out what the difference is. But I have been on a few carbon bikes, and owned one for a bit, and I have to wonder what else I want my bike to do.

An extremely well written, well developed, logical, and sensible response. I think a counterpoint might simply be that bicycle purchases are partially bought on perception and are somewhat irrational in some respects. One often does not analyze (or often are not capableof analyzing) actual small differences in one bike over another. Emotion often wins or at least plays a large part in the purchase.


Sandy

[Sandy]

would anyone feel that Serotta is "selling out" to produce a cheap/cheaper carbon frame set just to get into that market and get more of their bikes on the road? maybe at some point they will design/produce a cheaper frameset, but i think they may hang back and see how Parlee does with the Z4. if that proves successful, maybe we'll start to see the Serotta's.

I would certainly think that the image of Serotta might be changed some. I would not call it "selling out" at all, but just being able to compete in a hghly competitive market. In an economic environment like we are in now and will be in for some time, simple survival exists for so many companies and individuals. Creativity, innovation, and change become a necessity.


Sandy

[Climb01742]

i have an unbuilt crumpton that is, in a very minimalist industrial way, as beautiful as any bike i've ever had, and once spring springs, will be built. i freakin' can't wait. i look forward to discovering its ride.

i absolutely love the ride of carbon. my time ulteam and c50 rock, and my former parlee z1 still is my all-time climbing champ. that said, my spectrum ti, though still in early days, seems their equal in the smooth yet snappy as hell department. i'm not arguing against the supremacy of carbon -- especially not without riding the crumpton yet -- but i'm not sure i'm buying it fully yet either. before the spectrum i would have. now...not so sure.

and as much as i dig my peg respo and marcelo -- still the most responsive frame i've ridden -- steel for me is a step below the best carbon and spectrum for mythical balance of performance+comfort. just my .02.

what i do agree with 100% though is this: there are a lot of bikes to love out there.

[Charles M]

True...

And there's not much need to wait and see how the Z4 is turning out. They're selling. A lot.

The trick isn't the price point though. It's to build a very good bike at a price point.

There's a difference between selling out and building a bike that's so good for the money that a company is "sold out"... ;)

[Elefantino]

Hmm. Does anyone need Bangle as a bike designer?

[troymac]

The free market winnows out the winners and losers. Serotta has survived many decades because it has responded to the market and made correct choices like any other successful company.Whether a company sells a product service or a combination of both it only survives if the market buys what their selling. The market has decided that what Serotta has done works. Carbon steel ti or any other material does'nt matter if it does not sell.

[granitebastard]

I think the only way you could make a Serotta of carbon more affordable, is if the buyer came into the factory and did all of the prep and finishing him or herself. Bottom line. The materials are expensive and the people who build these fine machines are not going to work harder for less.

I have a really, really old pair of longjohns...They are in very good shape still and I still wear them to this day. Do you know what the label says on it?

"Made in the U.S.A."

[Kirk007]

I think the only way you could make a Serotta of carbon more affordable, is if the buyer came into the factory and did all of the prep and finishing him or herself. Bottom line. The materials are expensive and the people who build these fine machines are not going to work harder for less.

I have a really, really old pair of longjohns...They are in very good shape still and I still wear them to this day. Do you know what the label says on it?

"Made in the U.S.A."

Hmmm, I can think of a few other carbon bike manufacturers, all "made in the USA", all high end, all custom fit, for thousands less. I don't think the cost of materials or hourly wages alone explains the price difference between a Meivici and a Calfee dragonfly or a Crumpton, both of which are close to 4k less. I think there's a bit more to the pricing scheme that Serotta employs; for instance Serotta is bigger than both and can talk about R& D, advertising, the cost of the forum etc.

But whatever the reason for the cost, for me its a question of value. Best materials and labor process that money can buy? Ok, even if true, the point is the :best bike" for the rider, no? So, you better also have the best fitter and the best person at translating the fit to the person who understands the performance characteristics of the pipes and has to translate that to the folks putting the tubes together. That's a lot of translation which means a lot of margin for error.

For these reasons, and a few others like the measurability of performance differences, I have a hard time believing that the Meivici delivers almost twice the value of these frames or other frames built by some of the one person or smaller shops; folks who are expert at fitting and translating that into a frame design. I've still got one Serotta in the house, had a Legend that I liked very much and wish the company nothing but the best. Others values are different. Viva la difference.

[deechee]

Any teasers on what this means? It comes from the CXII Ti page.

We will continue to offer the CXII Steel (exceptional ride, exceptional value and virtually the same weight as the CXII Ti for those comparing grams) and, going forward, we are developing an AE based carbon fiber TT frame at a more attainable price point.

Is this something more along the lines of a HSG in tri geo/aero tubing? Or something completely custom?

I was amused with Dan Empfield's latest survey (http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Tri_bike_reader_opinions_753.html) of the slowtwitch crowd showing Serotta having less than 5% interest in the tri (slowtwitch) market. For a fiercely majority american forum base, I'm surprised to see so much interest in Canadian Guru bicycles. To me, (I work in telecom and have no insider knowledge of the bike industry) but I don't think carbon is the only solution. Smaller builders like Lynskey (Ti), Elite (Aluminum) are still high in interest and both I think are well known for their custom frames.

I think triathletes as a whole spend a lot on their bikes, but they also want something durable. Something that they can spill gatorade all over, paste powerbars on the TT, drop in transition, cover in salt water after coming out of the swim etc. Steel CXII doesn't exactly sound like it really fits that bill... but a 8k$ carbon frame? I understand road frames are king here, but then why invest into these frames for such small sales? And is carbon really the only solution?

(Although I'll admit, the do-it-all Classique Ti is definitely on my wish list - now if I only had the right reason to get one)

[max_powers]

The main reason Serrota exists *is* its price. Big segments of peeps feel high price implies the best, and they will pay. Like a field of dreams, build it.

oh sure, one can go on about finish, materials, etc. but the iota of quality gained is negligible wrt the performance of the motor attached!

[Pete Serotta]

Please come by the factory and we will show you why they cost what they cost. A wonderful thing about commerce is that you can buy any frame you like. When you come up, lets discuss your facts on the below ...


Questions to ask - Is your frame an "event" frame to be used a few times, does the ride matter in regard to performance, is it a pride and joy or just an appliance??

We all can buy what we want, and I understand that Serotta probably will not be able to convince you of our value..... But stop by for a demo some time and we will try

PETE


The main reason Serrota exists *is* its price. Big segments of peeps feel high price implies the best, and they will pay. Like a field of dreams, build it.

oh sure, one can go on about finish, materials, etc. but the iota of quality gained is negligible wrt the performance of the motor attached!

[rounder]

The main reason Serrota exists *is* its price. Big segments of peeps feel high price implies the best, and they will pay. Like a field of dreams, build it.

oh sure, one can go on about finish, materials, etc. but the iota of quality gained is negligible wrt the performance of the motor attached!

I don't agree with that. i have two serottas...both are not new and both are steel. Bought one new and one used. I like the fact that they look and ride the way (to me) bikes should. They are not colours de jour, graphics de jour, or hip features de jour. They are bikes and ride like bikes should.

[bhungerford]

I think if anyone is interested, read Small Giants, from an outside view point, it seems that Serotta simply does not want to grow their company in a lower price point market. and i'm sure that as long as they have been in business, Ben probably gets it, and will be around for a long time to come.

growth is not always good for a company, and many times will kill it. atmo

[granitebastard]

Let's get back to what was posted earlier. You can go out and buy a cheaper carbon bike, but I can almost guarantee it's not going to even come close to riding, feeling, and handling like a Serotta Meivici, HSG, or even a Bedford or Kirk for that matter. To me, a cheap carbon bike, is just that; A cheap carbon bike. But that's OK.

We all know most of the carbon used today is made overseas, this is cheaper. Labor is cheaper. And I too am guilty....I'm an american. I want things to be very cheap so I can afford them. But, some things in this world are not cheap for a reason. One of those just happens to be a Serotta, for good reason.

Do as Pete says. Stop by the factory and we will show you the passion that exists in each craftsman to build these wonderful machines.

[palincss]

oh sure, one can go on about finish, materials, etc. but the iota of quality gained is negligible wrt the performance of the motor attached!

I'm not sure I understand what this means, but I think you're saying a nicer frame will not make you stronger as an engine. That may be true, but I think it is also irrelevant. For most of us, there's a lot more to cycling pleasure than one's performance as an engine.

[benb]

I bought mine (wincing at the price) because I'd been starting to lose faith in the ability of the bike industry to build me a bike to safely carry me down the road for years and years without breaking and dumping me on my face.

Serotta will show you their quality if you show up at the door.

Now I had my bike several years, I could build a little pile of parts that I have hung on it that didn't have a Serotta level of quality. Luckily only one item in that pile was a safety issue. I don't care about what I paid for the frame & fork now, because the bike keeps trucking on and makes me feel safe & secure bombing down whatever pothole & dirt encrusted road I turn down.

[garysol1]

Figured I would add a newer pic of my 09 HSG...Serotta's "budget" carbon. I love this bike more every time I ride it.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/garysol1/My%20Serotta/Picture031.jpg

[Pete Serotta]

Figured I would add a newer pic of my 09 HSG...Serotta's "budget" carbon. I love this bike more every time I ride it.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/garysol1/My%20Serotta/Picture031.jpg

Great ride....I have one on order... PETE

[false_Aest]

Why do those hbars look sooooo huge?


Bike's sexy

[garysol1]

Why do those hbars look sooooo huge?


Bike's sexy

I started using those bars back in 06. They are the basic Specialized S-Works 42mm wide bars with deep drops.....

[Spud]

There is a lot of talk about "need" this or that, Trek Pilot would be great instead of but who the heck wants to ride a Trek Pilot instead of a Meivici if they can? And by the way here are a few production bike MSRP"s

Time RXR 5999.99
Time VXRS UL Team 4999.99
Cervelo S3 4495.00
BMC Pro Machine 3999.00

Remind me why made in america one at a time custom for the rider with paint choice should be cheaper.

[palincss]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_sucker_born_every_minute

[spb123]

Serotta is just $tatus symbol. Plenty other companies building great bikes for a lot less money.

[Ahneida Ride]

Serotta is just $tatus symbol. Plenty other companies building great bikes for a lot less money. The meivici ae is a boat anchor anyway.

One does not need a 911S either. It's rear engine is a boat anchor and
there are tons of faster and cheaper cars out there.

[fiamme red]

Serotta is just $tatus symbol. Plenty other companies building great bikes for a lot less money. The meivici ae is a boat anchor anyway.Welcome to the Forum. Please take the chip off your shoulder and make yourself at home. :bike:

[sg8357]

Serotta is just $tatus symbol. Plenty other companies building great bikes for a lot less money. The meivici ae is a boat anchor anyway.

Yes, If you went to bike shop instead of Goodwill to get a bike, you
are riding a status symbol. Unless you hang with Bobs who only ride
French cr*p from Goodwill, in that case that Pug UO-8 is a status
symbol, or at least a tribal signifier.

If you have more than 5% body fat you should never refer to the
weight of a bike.

Scott G.

[RoadRacerVelo]

These guys make really cool looking and unique carbon bikes that they say rival the very best for less money. They also repair carbon bikes as well.

http://roadrunnervelo.com/index.html

[fungusamungus33]

If you have more than 5% body fat you should never refer to the
weight of a bike.

Scott G.

That's it! We're the boat anchor. Maybe aerodynamic plastic surgery is what I need?

Great bikes, American made (by my friends) and what I choose.

Funny thing...anyone can pick a different ride, and without wasting a single calorie, they could refrain from making a negative post here.... Aren't people amazing?

Long live Serotta and the other great hand made tools and toys we love! Eff the rest of it....

[spb123]

Wondering how you justify the price of the meivici Ae?

[spb123]

0

[dave thompson]

Wondering how you justify the price of the meivici Ae?Explain the development of this bike. How was it tested for aerodynamics. You guys make some big claims.
We don't have to justify anything, we buy what we like for many reasons. Some folks like Trek, some Merlin, and others buy one the many brands presented. We happen to like Serotta, no justification necessary.

Troll.

[spb123]

o

[spb123]

0

[rwsaunders]

Keep tricking yourself. It must be good cause it has a Serotta decal.

What's your answer to the ultimate bike brand, spb123? Give us a hint...

[spb123]

As the owner of 3 Serotta's i can pass judgement. Just sayin the AE is overpriced and probably overbuilt thus contributing to its weight.

[Kirk007]

not wishing to prolong the fishing expedition launched by trolling, but, as a general proposition, am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing the price jump for the "high end" carbon frames that started a few years ago (and that as I recall the Meivici pushed along by setting the bar in the 7k range) (same question can be extended to bike components, particularly road components form Italia) and wheels?

I guess I'll have to go the Serotta factory as Pete and others suggest if I get back that way (I love bike manufacturers places in general so hey why not). But love of work, care, precision, etc. are not unique to any one builder. Examples of where I've witnessed such phenomena: I've been to the Calfee shop (dragonfly, custom, still less than 5K). I've been to steel and aluminum one man shops and builders (Co-Motion, Dave Kirk, Glenn Erickson, others - all custom frames well south of 5K). I've checked out Nick Crumpton's work (less than 5K).

I've also watched the u tube videos from Colnago and De Rosa. Whether 4-6K for a mass production high end bike from a big manufacturer or the price of a Meivici I struggle with the value issue at this pricing structure.

Sigh, if I was ridiculously flush though and wanted a carbon bike Serotta's offerings would be on my short list. There's just no question of the company's bona fides.

[William]

Yes, If you went to bike shop instead of Goodwill to get a bike, you
are riding a status symbol. Unless you hang with Bobs who only ride
French cr*p from Goodwill, in that case that Pug UO-8 is a status
symbol, or at least a tribal signifier.

If you have more than 5% body fat you should never refer to the
weight of a bike.

Scott G.


It's BD's cousin...or the ghost of Roy Munson. :confused: :beer:




William

[Pete Serotta]

I do not mean to prolong this, but the market "in the end" determines the price of everything.

I know that AEs have been sold and that there is a backlog.....what does that mean? In my eyes it means that some folks see value in the product.
Yeah, I know it will not be on most of our (me included) shopping list. I do appreciate the technology and development that has gone into the product and the next time I am in SARATOGA, I am going to ride Ben's. YEs we ride the same size bikes but he goes faster :D If you are a 57-58cm, stop by and give it a try.

I really like the ride of the Ottrott and the CDA, as well as how they present themselves. Come on by if you are in the RALEIGH area, you can test ride mine and I will bet you a glass (or 2) or RED, after the ride, that you will also like it.

We the consumer are very lucky for there are MANY bike makers out there that make an outstanding product....Each of us can chose - although I hope all chose a SEROTTA in the end!!! ;) ;)

Have a good weekend. PETE


As the owner of 3 Serotta's i can pass judgement. Just sayin the AE is overpriced and probably overbuilt thus contributing to its weight.

[BumbleBeeDave]

YES we ride the same size bikes but he goes faster :D

. . . you look prettier doing it. :beer: ;)

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

or need very STRONG glasses

. . . you look prettier doing it. :beer: ;)

BBD

[spb123]

?

[spacemen3]

not wishing to prolong the fishing expedition launched by trolling, but, as a general proposition, am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing the price jump for the "high end" carbon frames that started a few years ago (and that as I recall the Meivici pushed along by setting the bar in the 7k range) (same question can be extended to bike components, particularly road components form Italia) and wheels?

Yeah, the escalation in the price of bicycle frames and parts has also disturbed me. Whether its gouging or not, I cannot say, but I wish I knew where people got the money. :) Just when I think the road bike market can't possibly support such high prices, someone else shows up at the group ride with a stunning, mega-buck rig.

[djg]

not wishing to prolong the fishing expedition launched by trolling, but, as a general proposition, am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing the price jump for the "high end" carbon frames that started a few years ago (and that as I recall the Meivici pushed along by setting the bar in the 7k range) (same question can be extended to bike components, particularly road components form Italia) and wheels?

I guess I'll have to go the Serotta factory as Pete and others suggest if I get back that way (I love bike manufacturers places in general so hey why not). But love of work, care, precision, etc. are not unique to any one builder. Examples of where I've witnessed such phenomena: I've been to the Calfee shop (dragonfly, custom, still less than 5K). I've been to steel and aluminum one man shops and builders (Co-Motion, Dave Kirk, Glenn Erickson, others - all custom frames well south of 5K). I've checked out Nick Crumpton's work (less than 5K).

I've also watched the u tube videos from Colnago and De Rosa. Whether 4-6K for a mass production high end bike from a big manufacturer or the price of a Meivici I struggle with the value issue at this pricing structure.

Sigh, if I was ridiculously flush though and wanted a carbon bike Serotta's offerings would be on my short list. There's just no question of the company's bona fides.

Sure, there are lots of things in the market worth a look. At the same time, Serotta itself is offering made-to-measure and stock carbon at half the price of the top end. In one sense you're right -- I mean, I think we've all noticed the way the price gap between killer-good race bikes and ne plus ultra, latest/greatest has grown. I don't know a major bike shop in town that's unable to pull a stock 10k-plus bike off the rack (this week I stopped by the LBS and watched them ring up a Pinarello Prince with electronic DA, a garmin, and a bunch of extras . . . ) I think we all remember a point in recent history when that sort of thing just could not happen. OTOH, Serotta has put a ton of effort into R&D on what they can do with carbon and you want to pay for the cutting edge of that or you don't. They've also made an effort to keep the line plush with serious quality race (or just ride) bikes at much lower price points. That doesn't mean that any of these is the thing you should want, just that, well, yeah, the initial question was answered by Serotta long ago -- they do offer first rate carbon that's more affordable (lower priced, by a big margin) than the Meivici, as well as ti, and steel (and mixed materials) options.

[spb123]

Ti cost more than carbon.

[steampunk]

i'd be happy to have a more affordable TiMax.

[bpatterson]

AE looks good to me

[bpatterson]

why can't I post my pic anywhere elsea

[allegretto]

One does not need a 911S either. It's rear engine is a boat anchor and
there are tons of faster and cheaper cars out there.

i see you know far more about bikes than cars...

[tylercheung]

wow the 911s is propelled by anchor kedging now? it really is the green revolution!

[allegretto]

AE looks good to me

your pic has my juices flowing. any more???

[bpatterson]

as soon as i figure it out