Cyclist Killed...Reactions Typical

[scrooge]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/NEWS/80407014#gslPageReturn

I posted another thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=43534) about Randy's death...but had to say something more about the response that it's gotten in the broader (non cycling) community.
Typical. Disgusting. :crap: :crap:

:argue:

[gone]

People are morons. The commentary responding to the article proves it.

[RonW87]

As someone who not only rides recreationally but also commutes to work by bike a couple of days a week, I am concerned about the perception that cycling is "dangerous".

The general population and media have real problems in properly assessing the risk of various activities. For instance, I believe it was shown in the book "Freakonomics" that it was much more dangerous to have a pool in your backyard than a gun in your house. Also, the average person will be much more concerned about a new type of danger, even if it is less likely to occur than an existing danger, e.g. news of a terrorist attack vs. slipping in a bath tub.

Here in Toronto, the cycling community installs "ghost bikes" where a cyclist has been killed. While I support the sentiment, I wonder if this sends the message to the general community that cycling is a dangerous sport and fit only for daredevils.

Statistically, I suspect (leaving out the benefits of exercise and lower risk of heart disease, etc) that cycling is only marginally more dangerous than driving a car on the highway, less dangerous than, e.g. alpine skiing, and far less dangerous than riding a motorcycle. Yet every time this discussion comes up in a public forum (e.g. the newspaper linked by the OP), some yahoo talks about keeping bikes off the roads.

I am not sure what the answer is, but it strikes me that neither side is dealing properly with the implications of these tragic accidents. Instead of feeding into the media's desire to sensationalize, we cyclists should be the ones bringing the proper perspective. Railing againt cars and drivers won't help.

Showing the public that cycling is cheap, good for you, good for the environment and, yes, safe, is the way to go.

[deanster]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/NEWS/80407014#gslPageReturn

I posted another thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=43534) about Randy's death...but had to say something more about the response that it's gotten in the broader (non cycling) community.
Typical. Disgusting. :crap: :crap:

:argue:

Sad news.
I was confused about some of the details in the commentary about riding as far to the right as safe and other comments. I thought every state law statute had this comment. I interpret this as not riding in the middle of the lane even on a 4 lane road. It would be interesting to know more details.

I often see people assert their rights by taking a lane and I usually think that there goes an organ donor. Cyclists often think that cars should see them and that is simply at odds with the facts. I love calling out a rider who runs a redlight on a bike and telling them that it is foolish and wrong...absolutely discourtious. I usually get a FU as a response. I see too many cyclists riding improperly and unsafely which irritates me no end. In this day of distractions such as cell phones, CDs, and annoying passengers it pays to be out of the way...
Cyclists need to understand how truly invisible they are...that has been my mantra in the 50 years of cycling. Remember the bubba you piss off may take it out on me down the road.

[coopdog]

Remember the bubba you piss off may take it out on me down the road.

Amen

[Erik.Lazdins]

There are a lot of drivers that don't ride and few drivers that are cyclists or know what it feels like to ride on public roads. As a result many drivers treat cyclists as an outsider on "their" roads. The fact that I own cars and pay taxes, is a fact that only confuses this irrational argument and selfish point of view. While there are inconsiderate cyclists there are also inconsiderate drivers - so I don't get this argument either. I've had stuff thrown at me and have been harassed, I have also been cut off by people who claimed apologetically they flat out didn't see me. On occasion I get a call out of "you da man" but most often I hear horns or obscenities.

This is the reality of the world I choose to ride in. When I roll out I do it for me. The benefits outweigh the hassles but I try and pick my routes to avoid cars.

I stopped commuting to work as I dreaded the 2 mile stretch of 4 lane in front of my workplace(timed my ride to avoid rush hour as well). I prefer to rise early and get 2 hours in on desolate roads then drive in. I loved commuting but could not do it without getting consistently buzzed or honked at.

When I was in Germany I marveled how so many bikes were seen all over. I saw a shift change at Lufthansa in Hamburg on a rainy day, where a stream of cyclists were headed home. There were cars headed out as well but they were in balance with the bikes - it was pretty neat to see. :beer:

I pick routes to avoid traffic. I believe in most cases its wiser to take the lane than not to, however when heavy car traffic is around, its best for a cyclist to not ride there, even though they have the right to. As a kid in NJ, I was fortunate to live where I could ride out to the grocery store on errand for my mom - I don't consider riding to the grocery store where I live now unless its early on a Saturday morning. The proliferation of Walmarts and giant groceries has made this more difficult as well as suburban sprawl - thread drift..

My first mission when I get on the bike is to ride and have fun, and my obligation is to get my carcass home alive to my family when the ride is over. :)

I am grieved whenever I read of a cyclist being hit, almost moreso by the inconsiderate views of people that are heard afterwards.

The Ride of Silence is coming up in mid May - head out and support this ride.
RideofSilence.org for the ride near you.

Sorry for the length and thanks for reading - Erik

[gone]

Sad news.
Remember the bubba you piss off may take it out on me down the road.
Logically, you are of course right. However, in the last couple of years it seems the balance has shifted to where more bubbas get pissed off because they "have to wait" on a bicycle (they'd have to wait on a car too, but that's irrelevant). I also try to ride on less traveled roads but at some intersections I've learned it's safer to go through the sign if it's clear - I've been buzzed, had things thrown at me, lots of "get the f off the road" etc., because I did stop.

True story (difficult to explain but I'll try). I was approaching a "T" intersection and was turning left. I did everything right: signaled my turn, unclipped and came to a full stop. Bubba No. 1 couldn't be bothered to wait so he pulled around me to the left. Unfortunately (as I had seen) there was traffic coming from the right and he couldn't go. Also unfortunately, Bubba No. 2 was coming from the left and was turning right but now couldn't because Bubba No. 1 was in the lane. Total gridlock for about 3 minutes until the traffic from the right cleared and Bubba No. 1 was finally able to take off with roaring engine and squealing tires. The punchline? When Bubba No. 2 could finally turn right, he rolled down his window and yelled "get the f*#$ off the road".

Like Erik, I also pick less traveled roads and wait for times when there is less traffic (the "go to work" crowd is gone, the high school isn't on lunch break, etc) and I also fully occupy the lane when it's not safe to pass (crests of hills, blind curves, etc). Guess what? They pass anyway. If something is coming they just swerve back and run me off the road.

People that will swerve 5 feet to avoid hitting a dead raccoon won't move 5 inches for a cyclist - I've actually seen this happen numerous times.

As I said above, people are morons. Sadly, there is no right answer other than to not be "in their way".

[scrooge]

...I am not sure what the answer is, but it strikes me that neither side is dealing properly with the implications of these tragic accidents. Instead of feeding into the media's desire to sensationalize, we cyclists should be the ones bringing the proper perspective. Railing againt cars and drivers won't help.

.

Thanks for the insight RonW87. You're right in saying that there's something unsettling about the way this is handled by both sides (could it be using the death of a PERSON as a soapbox?). After I posted this I feared that I'm contributing to the problem rather than a solution. So, what are more helpful/healthy ways that we can respond to tragedies like this?

[gone]

That perfectly illustrates the problem:

Do the Test (http://www.dothetest.co.uk/)

[soulspinner]

Logically, you are of course right. However, in the last couple of years it seems the balance has shifted to where more bubbas get pissed off because they "have to wait" on a bicycle (they'd have to wait on a car too, but that's irrelevant). I also try to ride on less traveled roads but at some intersections I've learned it's safer to go through the sign if it's clear - I've been buzzed, had things thrown at me, lots of "get the f off the road" etc., because I did stop.

True story (difficult to explain but I'll try). I was approaching a "T" intersection and was turning left. I did everything right: signaled my turn, unclipped and came to a full stop. Bubba No. 1 couldn't be bothered to wait so he pulled around me to the left. Unfortunately (as I had seen) there was traffic coming from the right and he couldn't go. Also unfortunately, Bubba No. 2 was coming from the left and was turning right but now couldn't because Bubba No. 1 was in the lane. Total gridlock for about 3 minutes until the traffic from the right cleared and Bubba No. 1 was finally able to take off with roaring engine and squealing tires. The punchline? When Bubba No. 2 could finally turn right, he rolled down his window and yelled "get the f*#$ off the road".

Like Erik, I also pick less traveled roads and wait for times when there is less traffic (the "go to work" crowd is gone, the high school isn't on lunch break, etc) and I also fully occupy the lane when it's not safe to pass (crests of hills, blind curves, etc). Guess what? They pass anyway. If something is coming they just swerve back and run me off the road.

People that will swerve 5 feet to avoid hitting a dead raccoon won't move 5 inches for a cyclist - I've actually seen this happen numerous times.

As I said above, people are morons. Sadly, there is no right answer other than to not be "in their way".


+1

[William]

I was riding down a less traveled road yesterday and in the opposite direction I had two cars in a row pass, crossing the center line. The first was a teenage kid attempting to text while he driving down the road. Both hands gripping the steering wheel with his thumbs banging away….trying to watch the road at the same time. I know he didn’t see me at all. The second guy following was fumbling with his cell phone. I’m not sure if this guy saw me but he didn’t seem to. Where is the outrage for these folks? We had a child killed locally a couple of months ago walking down the road by a texting driver. Blurb in the news, but no call to legislate Text/cell phone & driving. A cyclist gets hit and killed, then there is a cry to outlaw riding on the road. Crazy logic.

All you can do is try to make yourself as noticeable as possible, ride less trafficked roads, obey traffic rules, and always act as though no one sees you to better your percentages of not getting hit. But, as with everything in life, there is no guarantee that collisions won’t happen.


William

[konstantkarma]

Do something besides debate these often debated issues. Join a pro-cycling lobbying organization to work for your right to the roads. Debating Bubbas never works....they are using their brainstems.

The League of American Bicyclists would be a good place to start.

My $0.02

[deanster]

Do something besides debate these often debated issues. Join a pro-cycling lobbying organization to work for your right to the roads. Debating Bubbas never works....they are using their brainstems.

The League of American Bicyclists would be a good place to start.

My $0.02
You are absolutely right! I contribute to the Bicycle Colorado lobby Link: http://bicyclecolo.org/
there is a House Bill HB1104 which was going to stiffen the right of way penalties for infractions until the Trucking Lobby added ammendments to create more loop holes.

Where do you guys live where people throw things at you????? I have been riding for many years (53) and have NEVER had anyone throw anything at me. Driving too close, cussing, but never an object thrown. If that ever happened I would probably consider strapping on a .38 to my hip.

I ride here in Colorado where there are a lot of bubbas but for the most part they are pretty respectful. When I ride in the "country" I have a couple of jerseys that have large American Flags on the back. I figure that if they don't like me, nor my mode of transportation, they won't F*** with the flag.

As far as the invisibility factor I believe a driver when they say they didn't "see" me. I have had a couple of occasions when I pulled out in front of a cyclist, much to my horror, and I truly didn't see them. Usually after a busy day at work when much is on my mind to distract me...sad but true. I am sure it is worse for non-cyclists.
I had my first encounter with a car when I had been riding for 3 years (1958). A woman started to pass me then pulled into a parking lot on the right cutting me off. I threw my body onto the hood of the car picking my bike up in the process. I was exceedingly lucky as we were going down a hill about 30. I had hit my brakes and slowed before she turned. I was mad as hell but she simply didn't see me. And I believed her. I have been using this experience ever since to guide my riding with cars. I NEVER assert my "rights" over a car assuming they see me.
Tragedies will happen with the density of cars and cyclists on the road...it is inevidable...but the stupidity of allowing cell phones and text messaging while driving is insane. Driving is now considered a right and not a privlege bestowed by the State. Too many accidents are caused by distraction and/or inconsiderate behavoir...and the anger of people sometimes astounds me beyond understanding...lets all just get along.

[gone]

Although I'm all for increased penalties for right of way infractions, having the words "Had the right of way" engraved on my tombstone won't make me any less dead.

The principle problem is one of awareness. If everyone in the country either cycled themselves or had one or more loved ones who did you would see a dramatic decrease in near misses, abuse and anger. That's why most people from North America who cycle in Europe are amazed at how cyclists are regarded as a natural part of the flow of traffic. Everyone either cycles, has cycled, knows somebody who cycles, has a relative who cycles ..... As a result, when they see a cyclist on the road (and they're expecting to see them so they do) instead of seeing a moving chicane or target they see a friend, neighbor or loved one.

We are a tiny niche in a nation of spectators.

[gone]

I just got off the phone with my best friend who told me he was in an accident yesterday. He was leading a paceline of 4 riders at about 25 MPH going east at 5:00 PM (so the late afternoon sun was at the drivers back and they were fully illuminated). A driver coming from the opposite direction turned left into them and hit him with the left front of her car. His left knee and ankle were hurt, probably soft tissue damage, but multiple x-rays reveal no broken bones. His two front teeth which were broken a few years ago in another cycling accident broke again in the same place and he has 4 stitches on the outside of his upper lip and 4 in his hand plus a bit of road rash. His knee is swollen and painful.

The people behind him were hurt worse. I don't have full details but he said the person right behind him pretty much went down on his face which they spent a long time trying to stitch up and he is looking at plastic surgery in the future (my friend used the words "part of his nose was hanging on by a thread"). The third rider broke several ribs and a clavicle, the fourth got away with road rash and bruises.

Naturally, the driver was uninsured and she told the highway patrol "she didn't see them" which in any reasonable place in the world would constitute an admission of guilt but in the U.S. is accepted as a rational explanation.

[RonW87]

From: http://washcycle.typepad.com/home/2007/10/raise-the-hamme.html

Failure Analysis Associates, Inc. performed a comparative analysis of fatality rates for a variety of activities per million hours spent performing a given activity. They concluded that the fatality rate for every million hours spent cycling is 0.26, compared to 0.47 per million driving hours (on-road motorcycling comes in at a whopping 8.80 deaths per million motorcycling hours).

That is, riding a motor vehicle has nearly twice the risk of fatality as riding a bike for a given duration.

--Overall Fatality and Commute Homeostasis--

According to the US National Safety Council, for every million cyclists in the US, 16.5 die each year, whereas for every million motorists, 19.9 die each year.

This is important, because it helps us to draw conclusions about how the higher risk per distance traveled interacts with the lower risk per time spent traveling. Cycling is more dangerous on a straight distance comparison, but because drivers travel farther on average,
the overall risk to an individual is higher for drivers than for cyclists.

This is related to what we might call "commute homeostasis", or the amount of time a person is willing to spend traveling. All things being equal, a person is willing to travel a farther distance only if they can get there faster.

People who drive tend to live farther away from destinations (e.g. work commute) than people who cycle. In fact, one benefit of cycling is that it saves so much money that cyclists can often afford to live much closer to where they work.

Cycling also tends to place a premium on proximity, so cyclists are more likely to locate in places where many destinations are nearby, which reduces the cycling distance and hence the risk as a function of distance.

--Fatality Rate in Crashes--

Another way of evaluating risk is to examine the odds of dying if you do crash. Common sense dictates that crashing in a bicycle has a higher risk of death than crashing in a motor vehicle, but according to the NHTSA, bicycles compare rather well.

The odds of dying from a bicycle crash are one in 71. This compares to one in 75 for a light truck (pickup truck, SUV, van), one in 108 for a car, one in 43 for a truck, one in 26 for a motorcycle, and one in 15 for a pedestrian.

In other words, the odds of dying in a bike crash are about the same as the odds of dying in an SUV crash. The false sense of security that comes from an SUV tends to produce far more dangerous driving behaviour.

[gone]

Very interesting. In my more cynical moments, I'd begun to conclude that if you ride long enough you'll be killed. Nice to know there's some data that doesn't support my gloomy outlook :(

[goonster]

on-road motorcycling comes in at a whopping 8.80 deaths per million motorcycling hours.

Wow.

My grandfather was an insurance executive and he forbade my father to ride motorcycles. My dad forbade me, and then died before he could rescind the edict. If I defied that, I'd really be tempting fate.

[konstantkarma]

I believe that awareness will improve for many people if there are serious consequences to their actions. For example, look at what MADD (Mothers against drunk driving) has done to increase awareness and penalties for driving drunk. There are far fewer drunk drivers out there then there were 20 years ago.

It's not just about bicycles and distracted drivers, It's about distracted and otherwise impaired drivers and the carnage on our roads.

Although I'm all for increased penalties for right of way infractions, having the words "Had the right of way" engraved on my tombstone won't make me any less dead.

The principle problem is one of awareness. If everyone in the country either cycled themselves or had one or more loved ones who did you would see a dramatic decrease in near misses, abuse and anger. That's why most people from North America who cycle in Europe are amazed at how cyclists are regarded as a natural part of the flow of traffic. Everyone either cycles, has cycled, knows somebody who cycles, has a relative who cycles ..... As a result, when they see a cyclist on the road (and they're expecting to see them so they do) instead of seeing a moving chicane or target they see a friend, neighbor or loved one.

We are a tiny niche in a nation of spectators.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's not just about bicycles and distracted drivers, It's about distracted and otherwise impaired drivers and the carnage on our roads.

. . . better enforcement and certainty of consequences. MADD di some good with drunk drivers because they forced the enforcers to better job. It's exactly analogous to the institutional bias that exists now in favor of drivers and against cyclists. It's not going to change until some outside factor forces it to.

BBD

[William]

Ask Beungood how many meth heads he's dealt with finding them crashed into walls, cars, and fire hydrants etc.... None of them know or remember where they started or how they got there. Scary stuff.





William

[konstantkarma]

. . . better enforcement and certainty of consequences. MADD di some good with drunk drivers because they forced the enforcers to better job. It's exactly analogous to the institutional bias that exists now in favor of drivers and against cyclists. It's not going to change until some outside factor forces it to.

BBD

Precisely. The enforcers need to be reminded that they work for us. The laws are on the books. This is a public health crisis, ATMO.