Paramount OS identification?

[dookie]

I've posted this over at the Waterford forums as well, but I thought I'd ask here as well...

Is this a late-model Waterford OS or a Japanese bike? I don't see any 'PDG' or 'Series' badging, and the paint looks custom, so I'm thinking USA? But I don't recall the 'Schwinn' being so prominent on the DT in my hazy memories of lusting after this bike. Waiting on the s/n from the seller, which should provide some answers...

Thanks for any info!

http://middlepath.gotdns.com/bikes/ks-os.jpg

[jvp]

that tubing looks big enough to be aluminum...

[dookie]

it's definitely got lugs...

[Dave Wages]

I have a feeling that is a Japanese built Paramount, but the serial # will be the real test. I've worked on enough old Paramounts while at Waterford, but I'm more used to seeing them without paint. Post the # when you get it and I can tell you if it's a WI built frame or not.

[97CSI]

Great looking bike. What size? Got a serial number? You can simply look it up on the Waterford Bikes website. They have a great history section on the Paramount with info on dating by serial number. You can also send that pic to Richard Schwinn, who owns Waterford (still the same shop where the Paramounts were made after moving from the Chicago plant) and he will reply. Somethings in an hour. Sometimes in a month. But, he will reply.

[dookie]

per (the other) RS on the waterford forums and personal email, likely a waterford. awaiting the s/n to confirm.

"Starting in the late 80's Schwinn debated how closely to associate the Paramount name with the Schwinn name. Should it be like Chevrolet and Corvette (where the Chevy logo is on every car) or like Toyota and Lexus (with virtually independent brands owned by one company). The Waterford factory liked the Chevy model and kept putting the Schwinn name on as many Paramounts as possible. Starting in 2001, Schwinn imported Paramount branded bikes without a Schwinn decal...Waterford always operated independently, so keeping the Schwinn name on an early 90's Paramount was not that unusual."

[sychan]

Check the bottom bracket housing for a serial #. The waterford made frames have a few digits (either a date or a frame size, I forget) and then a "W" for waterford. Look up the serial number scheme for waterford schwinns online.

The waterford PDG schwinns that I have had "handmade in the USA" or something like that on the chainstay (before the repaint). I think the fork crowns may also have been different on the waterford bikes, but I'm not as sure on that one.

[jvp]

same paint scheme as this '91 waterford...

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/RabidKoala/Waterford%20Paramount%2091/4776075a.jpg

thread here: (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=395015&highlight=paramount+catalog)

[Ken Robb]

the Waterford site lists the history by serial numbers for Paramounts under their "Heritage" header.

[PacNW2Ford]

I would bet on it being a Waterford-built Paramount. The "Schwinn" downtube decal set was known as the "Team" set, at least that is what my invoice from a Waterford refinish says. It does not show up on the Waterford website. As Dave says, the serial number should be easy to decipher. The chainstay should have a decal saying "handcrafted in Waterford, Wisconsin", but of course if it did, we wouldn't be here. Nice bike!

[SPOKE]

too bad it doesn't have the original fork........

[dannyg1]

too bad it doesn't have the original fork........

Where's Waldo?

Dany

[dookie]

where's waldo indeed...

hey spoke, if you seriously missed the OEM fork, you'd better get your eyes checked after that mishap ( :bike: ) last month. you really think i'd have wallpaper/carpet like that? when are we gonna catch up?

there may very well be a chainstay decal, but the bike is not (yet) in hand so i can't say. this is all about pre-sale due diligence.

i did get the s/n however (560CMWH 86049), which per waterford (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountdating) seems to indicate a 56cm waterford bike, #49 from Aug. '86.

One question for (perhaps) Dave...the 'M' is apparently the company code, but is not listed in the link above (though it would follow logically in the K, L order that is listed). Any idea what it means? Seller says the s/n is hard to read due to thick paint, so I suppose it could be something else?

Anyway, thanks for the info. This one is inbound shortly.

Kevin

[Keith A]

One thing I've always wondered about is the different decals on the Paramounts from that era. Most of them are like the ones on my white '89 Paramount...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=951&stc=1

But every now and then, you see the decals like the one you just bought as well as the other one that is posted here. I also have a blue '89 that has these decals too...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=950&stc=1

Does anyone know why they had two different styles of decals during the same time period? Did this designate something different?

[Keith A]

...replying to my own post...

I just noticed that my white '89 with the thinner decals has a Columbus SLX decal on it, whereas all of the ones (including my blue '89) with the fatter decals do NOT have the SLX decal. Could these fatter decals indicate a different tube set was used???

Edit: Just pulled the seatpost out of my blue '89 and sure enough no rifling down the seat tube. So does anyone know what tubeset this is?

[PacNW2Ford]

where's waldo indeed...

hey spoke, if you seriously missed the OEM fork, you'd better get your eyes checked after that mishap ( :bike: ) last month. you really think i'd have wallpaper/carpet like that? when are we gonna catch up?

there may very well be a chainstay decal, but the bike is not (yet) in hand so i can't say. this is all about pre-sale due diligence.

i did get the s/n however (560CMWH 86049), which per waterford (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountdating) seems to indicate a 56cm waterford bike, #49 from Aug. '86.

One question for (perhaps) Dave...the 'M' is apparently the company code, but is not listed in the link above (though it would follow logically in the K, L order that is listed). Any idea what it means? Seller says the s/n is hard to read due to thick paint, so I suppose it could be something else?

Anyway, thanks for the info. This one is inbound shortly.

Kevin

Something's not right about that SN. 1986 would be a little early for the OS. I think they hit general circulation around 1989.

[Keith A]

The waterford PDG schwinns that I have had "handmade in the USA" or something like that on the chainstay (before the repaint). BTW, there is no such decal on my blue '89 and it is a Waterford build. The serial number is 550CLW L89314
550 - Frame size
C - fork size
L & W - both indicate this was built in the Waterford facility
L - Month code (November)
89 - Year
314 - sequence of build during the month (314th frame built in Nov)

[IFRider]

One thing I've always wondered about is the different decals on the Paramounts from that era. Most of them are like the ones on my white '89 Paramount...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=951&stc=1

But every now and then, you see the decals like the one you just bought as well as the other one that is posted here. I also have a blue '89 that has these decals too...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=950&stc=1

Does anyone know why they had two different styles of decals during the same time period? Did this designate something different?

There was an option for team decals during that time frame. Those are the larger ones that appear on the downtube and toptube. The bike in question looks to be a Waterford Paramount not a japanese one and seems to be an OS model which used True Temper sourced tubes original and then later Reynolds 753 tubes. Mine is the true temper version and has a wonderful candy apple red paint job with silver team decals. A real nice bike. Before Schwinn went bankrupt, the formed the Waterford plant and invested a fair amount of research into the OS bikes (lugs specifically). I remember reading a Bicycle Guide article about the development and building of the bikes and a comparison to the older SLX bikes. That article lead to my purchase of my bike in '89 or '90. I wish I could find a scan of it. It detailed a fair amount about the CAD process that went into the lugs.

Warren

[Keith A]

Warren -- Thanks for the good information. One more question, how do you know if you have the OS tubing? I'm assuming the top, down or seat tubes are larger than was on the SLX ones. Is this a measurable difference?

The bike in question looks to be a Waterford Paramount not a japanese one and seems to be an OS model which used True Temper sourced tubes original and then later Reynolds 753 tubes.I would agree that this is a Waterford built frame since the Japanese built ones had a unicrown fork instead of lugged style fork.

The picture below is a Japanese built frame and you can see that fork is the unicrown style...

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/cyclingsfun/pogliaghi/317006.jpg

[IFRider]

...replying to my own post...

I just noticed that my white '89 with the thinner decals has a Columbus SLX decal on it, whereas all of the ones (including my blue '89) with the fatter decals do NOT have the SLX decal. Could these fatter decals indicate a different tube set was used???

Edit: Just pulled the seatpost out of my blue '89 and sure enough no rifling down the seat tube. So does anyone know what tubeset this is?

The last of the non-OS Paramounts used SLX tubing. The first OS bikes used oversized True Temper tubes. The later OS bikes used 753 tubes and where very similiar to the early Waterfords from my understanding. I bought an early version OS bike custom from Schwinn. At the time my 56cm was about a half pound lighter than the SLX version according to Waterford. At the time I debated the 2 pretty heavily and Schwinn (Waterford) actually advised me at the time to go with SLX version as I was only 155 lbs. The OS bikes were stiffer for heavier riders. I now longer and 155 lbs and am very happy I chose the OS bike and still continue to ride it often. 8 years ago I had Waterford repaint and spread the rear to 130 and it is like a new bike.

Warren

[IFRider]

Warren -- Thanks for the good information. One more question, how do you know if you have the OS tubing? I'm assuming the top, down or seat tubes are larger than was on the SLX ones. Is this a measurable difference?

The OS bikes have bigger tubes but it is easier to tell the OS bikes from the lugs I believe. The OS lugs a little more refined (carved closer to the joint and have slight points on the sides of the lugs in addition to the top and bottom). I will try to measure mine when home but it will be a bit.

regarding an earlier comment, '86 is early for OS as I think OS came about in '88 but could be wrong as I am basing it on my purchase back then.

They are really nice frames for the time and hold their own with my Waterford RS-22 and Independent Club Racer for ride. I can fit fenders (plastic) and 25mm tires no problem.

Warren

[IFRider]

Warren -- Thanks for the good information. One more question, how do you know if you have the OS tubing? I'm assuming the top, down or seat tubes are larger than was on the SLX ones. Is this a measurable difference?

I would agree that this is a Waterford built frame since the Japanese built ones had a unicrown fork instead of lugged style fork.

The picture below is a Japanese built frame and you can see that fork is the unicrown style...

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/cyclingsfun/pogliaghi/317006.jpg
That is absolutely true. The paint jobs were also more production like and this is a classic from that era. The Japanese bikes were very nice but more production oriented. Similiar bikes of the time were tig welded steel or moving to aluminum or TI.

BTW, Waterford takes great pride in the bike they build under Schwinn and do a wonderful job of restoration. My bike looks better than the majority of new bikes I see at Belmont Wheelworks finish wise. Not quite Joe Bell but real nice.

Warren

[SPOKE]

where's waldo indeed...

hey spoke, if you seriously missed the OEM fork, you'd better get your eyes checked after that mishap ( :bike: ) last month. you really think i'd have wallpaper/carpet like that? when are we gonna catch up?

there may very well be a chainstay decal, but the bike is not (yet) in hand so i can't say. this is all about pre-sale due diligence.

i did get the s/n however (560CMWH 86049), which per waterford (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountdating) seems to indicate a 56cm waterford bike, #49 from Aug. '86.

One question for (perhaps) Dave...the 'M' is apparently the company code, but is not listed in the link above (though it would follow logically in the K, L order that is listed). Any idea what it means? Seller says the s/n is hard to read due to thick paint, so I suppose it could be something else?

Anyway, thanks for the info. This one is inbound shortly.

Kevin

i couldn't see the fork due to the camo colors!!! then again it has been a while since i had my eyes checked :)

[97CSI]

i did get the s/n however (560CMWH 86049), which per waterford (http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=paramountdating) seems to indicate a 56cm waterford bike, #49 from Aug. '86.KevinAm thinking that it is not an OS frameset. Too old (but I could be wrong). Think that killer pink/black paint-job makes it 'appear' to have larger tubes. The Waterford website also has a primer on the proper decals for the various Paramount years and they will sell you a set. At least they used to so do. Gotta love Paramount threads. Here is my '87 Paramount with a '98 Waterford paint-job getting re-cabled for this season.

[dookie]

i'm thinking the seller misread the s/n...

it's got the graphics. and look at the seat stays in the two photos from keith a...the pink/black bike in question sure seems to have the beefier stays and featureless top caps of keith's blue OS. also, the original high-res image seems to show the minimalist lugs with small side points (at least at the BB) as IFRider describes.

i'll know in a week or so...

[Keith A]

dookie -- Got a link to the high res images? If not, I'd be interested in seeing these and maybe you could email them to me. I'll PM you my email address.

[Keith A]

The OS bikes have bigger tubes but it is easier to tell the OS bikes from the lugs I believe. The OS lugs a little more refined (carved closer to the joint and have slight points on the sides of the lugs in addition to the top and bottom). I will try to measure mine when home but it will be a bit.I took some close up pictures of the lugs on my blue '89 with the "team" decals...and here are the links to the images: under BB (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20001.jpg), BB lug (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20002.jpg), BB lug w/ different angle (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20003.jpg), head tube & lugs (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20004.jpg), seat tube lugs (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20005.jpg), and pump peg & inside head tube (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20006.jpg).

So Warren, do these look like the OS lugs or not? I'll have to get to my white '89 Paramount and see if these look the same or not.

[PacNW2Ford]

Here's a 1991 OS headtube:

[Keith A]

PacNW2Ford - Thanks for the picture of your OS. Is this a Waterford built frame?

[IFRider]

Here's a 1991 OS headtube:
Yes, that is the OS with the lugs with the side points. The whole OS concept was driven around those lugs (at least according to the article I read at the time).

Warren

[IFRider]

I took some close up pictures of the lugs on my blue '89 with the "team" decals...and here are the links to the images: under BB (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20001.jpg), BB lug (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20002.jpg), BB lug w/ different angle (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20003.jpg), head tube & lugs (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20004.jpg), seat tube lugs (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20005.jpg), and pump peg & inside head tube (http://www.vx.com/ftproot/vxfiles/Public/ParamountLugs%20006.jpg).

So Warren, do these look like the OS lugs or not? I'll have to get to my white '89 Paramount and see if these look the same or not.

The pictures you loaded are not like my Paramount. They may be the Japanese built bikes or an early non-OS bike repainted in vintage of the bike I have. Thinking about it I dont know when they first offered the team decals so it may be a SLX bike. Still a real nice bike for sure....

Warren

[IFRider]

PacNW2Ford - Thanks for the picture of your OS. Is this a Waterford built frame?
Right down to the black anodized headset from Stronglight with I presume Paramount letter... The waterford bikes also have on the non drive chainstay a decal that says made in Waterford Wisc.

Warren

[PacNW2Ford]

Yes, it is a authentic Waterford-built 1991 Paramount OS, refinished by Waterford. It was originally white with black "Team" decals. It has the original Stronglight Paramount headset and the original fork is in the background.

[Keith A]

The pictures you loaded are not like my Paramount. They may be the Japanese built bikes or an early non-OS bike repainted in vintage of the bike I have. Thinking about it I dont know when they first offered the team decals so it may be a SLX bike. Still a real nice bike for sure....My blue '89 is definintely is a Wateford built bike as the serial number confirms this. It does look a lot like my white '89, but without the SLX decals. It could be a repaint, but it doesn't appear to be so.

BTW, this bike also has the original Stronglight "Paramount" headset.

[dookie]

here's (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250234756248) a decidedly japanese 'series' bike with the side-point lugs...

[97CSI]

BTW, this bike also has the original Stronglight "Paramount" headset.Have not seen another a Stronglight "Paramount" headset other than the one in my '87. Also have the 3T "Paramount" stem.

[IFRider]

Yes, it is a authentic Waterford-built 1991 Paramount OS, refinished by Waterford. It was originally white with black "Team" decals. It has the original Stronglight Paramount headset and the original fork is in the background.

That was the original color scheme of my Paramount (white with black team) and black headset. I also have what appears to be your newer Waterford (sport touring bike) but mine is a 853 version RS-22. ind of parallel world. Both mine are candy apple red.

Warren

[IFRider]

here's (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250234756248) a decidedly japanese 'series' bike with the side-point lugs...
The japanese bikes also had internal cable routing for the rear brake as I recall. Another differentiator.

Warren

[dookie]

Yes, that is the OS with the lugs with the side points. The whole OS concept was driven around those lugs (at least according to the article I read at the time).

no correction necessary it would seem...the 'series' bikes were OS as well (although i always thought they were TIGed...most of the 'series' mtbs were.)

curiouser and curiouser.

-alice

[Keith A]

Kevin -- Did you get the Paramounts yet?

BTW, I measured the tubes on my blue '89 and I would say that mine is NOT an OS. The top tube was 1 inch in diameter and the down and seat tubes have a diameter of 1 1/8 inches. I would suspect that the OS tubes would be larger than this.

Which has me wondering what type of tubing was used for this frame. I'll need to double check the interior of the seat tube and make sure I didn't miss the rifling.

[sychan]

Kevin -- Did you get the Paramounts yet?

BTW, I measured the tubes on my blue '89 and I would say that mine is NOT an OS. The top tube was 1 inch in diameter and the down and seat tubes have a diameter of 1 1/4 inches. I would suspect that the OS tubes would be larger than this.

My Paramount is definitely an OS model, and the seat tube is standard 1.125" at the top, but it flares out to 1.25" at the bottom bracket. The downtube seems to be 1.25" all the way through. I think that the OS refers to the fact that they went to 1.25", when it was all 1.125" before.

[dookie]

so, it's here. previous s/n was totally buggered...actually 560CMW M90008. there is also an underlined '9' stamped on the other side of the BB.

TT OD is 1.15” constant, DT OD is 1.27” constant, ST OD flares from 1.15” to 1.27” (per my digital calipers). I guess that’s 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 plus paint? Side-point lugs at all junctions, ‘W’ in the serial number, Waterford chainstay decal…certainly seems like the real deal. sorry for the huge (and slow) images...

http://middlepath.gotdns.com/bikes/for_sale/paramount_os/waterford.jpg

http://middlepath.gotdns.com/bikes/for_sale/paramount_os/bb_lugs.JPG

http://middlepath.gotdns.com/bikes/for_sale/paramount_os/ht_lugs.JPG

[Keith A]

Glad to see they have arrived. Your serial number shows this to be the 6th frame built in December 1990 and your lugs are the OS lugs as has been discussed.

BTW, I misstated my tube size earlier and the DT and ST are both 1 1/8 inches instead of 1 1/4 which I originally stated.

Another interesting fact looking out our serial numbers is that you have a repeated "M" in the 1st and 2nd parts of the serial number -- and I have a repeated "L". I know that in the 2nd part of the serial number, this is the month code. However, the Waterford website isn't totally clear on what the second letter means in the 1st part of the serial number. I know the 1st letter is the fork size and the 3rd one is where the frame was produced, but the 2nd one is supposed to be a company code??

[97CSI]

E-mail Richard Schwinn at Waterford and he will give you the details on the serial number.

Great frameset. Looks to be very clean inside. Waterford does excellent paint work. He repainted my '87 ten years ago and it is still in terrific condition. Anyone have an OS frameset in a 54 or 55 they don't need?

[jvp]

This is what I was told on the waterford forums, regarding my '89 OS: "550 is the size. C was the internal code for fork selection from A, B, C; this reflected a combination of threaded steer tube length and rake. M is the code for frame type and usually signified an OS frame (best of Marc's recollection). Since there was cross-over in 1989 between OS and non-OS it is possible to have an M on an non OS frame by mistake. The serial number stamper was set by hand. W is for Waterford. The rest you know.

For a quick and true verification of an OS frame; the lugs will have a third point on the side, the downtube will measure 1 1/4", the top tube will measure 1 1/8."
_________________

[Keith A]

jvp -- Got any pictures of your '89 OS?

[jvp]

Edit: serial # is 550CMWH89006
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/P2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/bike078.jpg

[Keith A]

Thanks! That's a great looking bike!

[Keith A]

This is what I was told on the waterford forums, regarding my '89 OS: "550 is the size. C was the internal code for fork selection from A, B, C; this reflected a combination of threaded steer tube length and rake. M is the code for frame type and usually signified an OS frame (best of Marc's recollection). Since there was cross-over in 1989 between OS and non-OS it is possible to have an M on an non OS frame by mistake. The serial number stamper was set by hand. W is for Waterford. The rest you know.Just wanted to say that your information about the "M" code does appear to be correct. Every OS frame's serial number I have seen does have an "M", whereas the non-OS frames's often have an "L" including both of my non-OS '89 frames.

[Acotts]

Yes, it is a authentic Waterford-built 1991 Paramount OS, refinished by Waterford. It was originally white with black "Team" decals. It has the original Stronglight Paramount headset and the original fork is in the background.

+1 for your stem.

[shinomaster]

That is absolutely true. The paint jobs were also more production like and this is a classic from that era. The Japanese bikes were very nice but more production oriented. Similiar bikes of the time were tig welded steel or moving to aluminum or TI.

BTW, Waterford takes great pride in the bike they build under Schwinn and do a wonderful job of restoration. My bike looks better than the majority of new bikes I see at Belmont Wheelworks finish wise. Not quite Joe Bell but real nice.

Warren


My Paramount had this same frame but with an all purple pearl paint. It was a really nice bike.

[PacNW2Ford]

+1 for your stem.

Thanks. In case you missed it, close up is here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=43690&highlight=yamaguchi