OT: Help! My daughter wants to major in anthropology!

[BumbleBeeDave]

My daughter is a freshman at a local college and announced to me this past week that she has decided to major in anthropology. Being the practical Dad that I am, my first response was to ask as benignly as I could exactly what a degree in anthro qualifiies her to do to earn a living. As you might expect, this wasn't exactly the response she wanted, since she couldn't answer the question and didn't get instant, unqualified support.

But now I'm trying to answer the question myself . . . what kind of reasonably good paying job does an anthro degree qualify you to get? I really DO want to be supportive and offer her encouragement to pursue her dreams tempered with some reasonable real-world advice. But I don't want her to end up being the world's most well-educated waitress . . .

Anybody? . . . Help! :eek:

BBD

[CarbonCycles]

But I don't want her to end up being the world's most well-educated waitress . . .

Anybody? . . . Help! :eek:

BBD

I'm sure with an advanced degree (ie PhD) she will do fine. Heck, it's funny you mention well-educated waitress because the odds are very likely that here in Austin your waiter or waitress will have at least a BA if not a more advanced degree...ppl just don't wanna leave Austin after graduation.

[jghall]

Dave,
May not be as bad as it appears. Imagine the foremost job would be teaching. But it may be used in various other fields such as; archaeology(sp?), research, applied research, medical and health related fields.

You could even use it as a foundation for law, documentary film, photography, musuem work, etc.

As with many college kids, what they start out in not what they end up majoring in.

Regards,
Jeff

[aLexis]

BBD,

Your support will make her a better student. Do a lttle research with her, and I'm sure you all will see that there are a lot of different areas to pursue in anthropology, any of which will lead to prosperity. If she has a good head on her thorax and a strong work ethic, she will succeed whether she majors in anthropology or biochemistry.

Good luck, and be happy that she is in college and excited about studying something.

-aLexis

[lemonlaug]

My buddy changed his major from engineering to anthropology very early in college. As a result of this switch he went from being miserable to loving his classes. He found himself involved in all kinds of great opportunities like doing and presenting research etc. Despite this he got (maybe continues to get to a certain degree) all kinds of static from his parents about his prospects for employment.

He's currently at the U. of Edinburgh getting his PhD in Archaeology and he is no less passionate about his choice than he was before. He absolutely loves what he's doing which is prerequisite for his program which requires him to be extremely self-motivated in order to do his research. To me I have no doubt that this passion makes him both happier and more employable than he would be as a middling and miserable engineer.

That said, if you're looking to give some constructive advice that doesn't involve a degree change, I would suggest: breadth, perhaps a minor in a different field, or at least a sequence of courses in some other dpt (many schools require this anyway). If it's something your daughter is amenable to, if that minor/sequence is in math or statistics, it will vastly improve her prospects as a future grad student (in any field) or employee.

Mostly though: bite your tongue.

[quaintjh]

Dave,

My daughter will be starting college in the fall and is interested in Anthro and Photography. We are working with her to find a way to make these work together. Photoethnography is actually a field of study.

http://www.photoethnography.com/

She is also really strong in math/science and there are many hybrid paths these days. My mother-in-law has a BA in Anthro and an MS in Geography/GIS and an MS in computer science. She analyzes satellite data to measure the impact of various human activities on the landscape--from ranching to warfare. Pretty cool stuff.

DBRK does well with what some would consider a useless degree.

Jay :beer:

[KeithS]

As others have mentioned it's just encouraging that she has a passion for learning. We all know people that ended up in directions other than where they were headed. My eldest is an english major, a very talented writer and at 27 contemplating grad school. All while waiting tables. It used to bother me, she has embraced a much more bohemian lifestyle than I am comfortable with, maybe because I am uncomfortable with it. My brother was a math major in college and he has been a baker for the last 15 years. A friend of mine who was a theater performance major manages a Mercedes dealership. I was a business major in college and I have been in telecommunications for over 20 years and I have only met 3 or 4 people who majored in telecom.

I empathize with you. I have had that conversation, when they throw curves like that it's hard to duck.

[Kevan]

so I shut up and ask them about their lives and interests. Nature will take its course.

[dirtdigger88]

do you think it pays worse than journalism . . . :confused:

Jason

[avalonracing]

My wife went to an expensive New England college and majored in cultural anthropology. She loved the subject, worked really hard and did well. But when she was done with school and her scholarship money had run out it was time to get a job.
First she worked for Americorps (which is a bit like a domestic Peace Corps) which appealed to her altruistic nature. Too bad that they don't pay livable wages.
After that she went to massage school. She loved this and was very good at it. Too bad that it is a job that requires physical labor 8 hours a day and has very limited room for advancement (a good therapist makes $50-$80 and hour... before expensive overhead).
The she because a mortgage loan officer. She was good at this too although she didn't love it. She made a good living but not a great one because she was unwilling to do the crazy loans that help the mortgage meltdown. She also gave people the lowest rates possible (there is that altruistic thing again) so she didn't make half of what she could have by added extra fees and interest.
Now she is working for a tech company. It's a great company with a cool corporate culture. She says that it is far and away the best job she has had with the most opportunity. It has a decent salary and great benefits. She is doing well there too but is it her dream job? Probably not.

The point of the story? My wife said if she had any idea about the "real world" she would not have majored in anthropology. Even though she loved it with a fallback of "family money" (like most of the students at her school) it is just a tough way to go.

She said there were many other things that she could have majored in that would have been much more marketable that she still could have enjoyed.

BTW- If she could do it over she would have though twice about the tattoo that she got on her ankle at 18 years old.

[davids]

Me: AB in Anthropology, University of Michigan 1982; AM in Anthropology, Harvard University 1984.

I loved studying anthro. Because I was an engaged and enthusiastic student, it led me to find relevance and interest in areas I'd previously thought tedious (linguistics) or worthless (philosophy). It provided me with a perspective on the world that I still believe is extraordinarily valuable. This is despite the fact that I quickly left my field behind once I entered the working world full-time (I've been working in IT for almost 20 years now.)

As my father frequently said, an excellent liberal arts education will teach you how to think. That's a very valuable skill.

And she's, what, 19? She's probably going to change her mind another dozen times before she graduates. You should be happy that she's enthusiastic and engaged in her education. Share her excitement, or at least ask her to share hers.

I'm fine. She'll be fine.

[catulle]

Modern days corporations are after graduates from fields other than business administration. Of course, it all depends upon the grades and achievements of the student. Also, from Anthropology she could easily (again, depending upon her grades and achievements) aspire to an MBA, that is if she would like to attend grad school. Non-profit organizations and philantropic foundations would be interested in offering her employment.

In the modern corporate world it is more about your class placement, extra-curricular achievements, and recommendations than about your particular field of studies. Of course, she can always teach.

I'd say, nevertheless, that a critical factor for a fulfilling and wholesome life is to find what makes you happy and make a living of it. If Anthropolgy is what fulfills her, well, she'll ruin her life being a real estate broker. Furthermore, I'd rather my daughter be an anthropologist than an interior decorator. But then, you'd probably disagree.

I wish her luck and the best possible future.

[J.Greene]

yesterday (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=43274)
JG

[catulle]

or worthless (philosophy).
As my father frequently said, an excellent liberal arts education will teach you how to think. That's a very valuable skill.


I think your dad had it very clear. Smart man. As a matter of fact, Philosophy is the part of Liberal Arts that teaches you how to think. Just sayin...

[davids]

I think your dad had it very clear. Smart man. As a matter of fact, Philosophy is the part of Liberal Arts that teaches you how to think. Just sayin...Yep. I figured that out, by way of Claude Levi-Strauss and Clifford Geertz...

p.s. My dad was smart. I'm still working on being more like him.

[sc53]

Dave, as a liberal arts major and graduate student in the 70's, I am disappointed in your view of the value of higher education. Whether a major translates directly into a high-paying job is not the only, and should not be the most important, consideration in your daughter's choice of a course of study. If she's passionate about something, she should pursue it to the utmost! How many of us have gotten into careers or a series of jobs that pay the bills but do not inspire? If you have gone to the expense of sending your daughter to college, let her spend her years there studying what fascinates her, not a trade. If she has a passion for learning, thinking, pursuing challenges, setting goals, etc. she will find work that satisfies her, not just work that pays the bills.
I speak from experience--that many of us baby boomers undoubtedly share.

[catulle]

Yep. I figured that out, by way of Claude Levi-Strauss and Clifford Geertz...

p.s. My dad was smart. I'm still working on being more like him.

Ok, so don't you EVER use the words Philosophy and worthless in the same sentence ever again...! :beer:


(Oh, and I'll forgive your preference for Levi-Strauss.)

[flickwet]

Progress down a relevant path will ultimately make revealed to you your destiny. Just major in anything that will lead you to graduate. The degree is the key. Its true that there are traditionally lucrative majors and degrees. but financial and personal success are not guaranteed by pursuing those courses of study. I am the example, Didn't know what I wanted to do, worked construction while going to school (and not doing well), ended up getting offered a job running small construction projects in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (1981-1986) Came home and went back to school knew what I wanted to major in now- Geography! Loved my classes, nearly all of them, Soil and Water Field Studies led me to Wetlands research which led me to Flickinger Wetland Services Group, Inc, which enabled me to buy my Serotta Colorado as a first year reward to myself in 1991, Which led to this post!

[flydhest]

Dave, As perspective, I majored in French Literature.

What you study as an undergraduate matters, but it does not define your career by any means. Why can't she learn for learning's sake? Otherwise, vocational school seems like what one should do if the point is to get a job.

[HSG Racer]

She could still minor or double major in something more practical. She is just a freshman and the first two years of college are exploratory years. This month it's anthropology, next month it could be English. What corporations are looking for is for people who can write and communicate well and who are responsible and motivated. These skills can be perfected with an anthropology degree or any other liberal arts degree.

[victoryfactory]

Maybe she'll end up "Living with the Mek"

VF

[M.Sommers]

Dear BBD,

At least your daughter wants to be something. Looking below at Sandy's thread regarding third graders offers a reminder of the popular disease seen in so many youths today. Try not to judge her major, try to support her majorly; your daughter is an example of what is right...with too few of our kids today. She's not on EPO, GH, steroids and she's studying hard, this is great stuff. Her glass is more than half full, she could be the next Indiana Jones.

:beer:

Love,
M.Sommers

[brians647]

Progress down a relevant path will ultimately make revealed to you your destiny. Just major in anything that will lead you to graduate. The degree is the key. Its true that there are traditionally lucrative majors and degrees. but financial and personal success are not guaranteed by pursuing those courses of study. I am the example, Didn't know what I wanted to do, worked construction while going to school (and not doing well), ended up getting offered a job running small construction projects in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (1981-1986) Came home and went back to school knew what I wanted to major in now- Geography! Loved my classes, nearly all of them, Soil and Water Field Studies led me to Wetlands research which led me to Flickinger Wetland Services Group, Inc, which enabled me to buy my Serotta Colorado as a first year reward to myself in 1991, Which led to this post!

Gets it.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Dave, as a liberal arts major and graduate student in the 70's, I am disappointed in your view of the value of higher education. Whether a major translates directly into a high-paying job is not the only, and should not be the most important, consideration in your daughter's choice of a course of study. If she's passionate about something, she should pursue it to the utmost! How many of us have gotten into careers or a series of jobs that pay the bills but do not inspire? If you have gone to the expense of sending your daughter to college, let her spend her years there studying what fascinates her, not a trade. If she has a passion for learning, thinking, pursuing challenges, setting goals, etc. she will find work that satisfies her, not just work that pays the bills.
I speak from experience--that many of us baby boomers undoubtedly share.

. . . but unfortunately, never having been a parent of a college student or been in this situation before, I'm not really sure exactly what "the best" translates to. I have only my own frame of reference to go by. I know in my own situation I majored in photojournalism for reasons that were not very well thought out--I thought it was exciting and neat to go to news events. Now many years later, I have had to grapple with the reality that such a career has severely limited my opportunities for advancement without moving cross-country, which it has turned out I don't want to do.

As one other poster mentioned, I also feel now that I could have majored in other things--business, law, pre-med, etc.--that I was fully capable of achieving and which would have given me more flexibility in living and working where and how I wished, while still giving me the challenge and achievement that I find make a job enjoyable.

So I guess in my case, "the best" includes encouraging her to prepare herself for life in such a way that she has that flexibility to live and work where she pleases while earning a decent, if not rich living. My understanding is that is one of the things college is supposed to do--prepare yourself for life in both emotional, intellectual, and practical ways. I definitely want to support whatever final choice of major she ends up making, but I am also trying to ensure that my support can be geniune, rather than of the "bite your tongue" variety.

BBD

[dirtdigger88]

Dave- all joking aside

my parents flipped out oh so many years ago when I announced that I was not longer going to go to school for journalism-

I was less than a year from finishing up-

I quit school for a year to figure out what I wanted to do- I had been working for landscape companies since high school - so to me it seemed like a good fit

fast forward some 15 years - I am so glad I made my decision-

Im not putting down your profession- it just wasnt for me-

Im sure you have raised a smart girl - let her prove that to you

Jason

[M.Sommers]

Dave- all joking aside

my parents flipped out oh so many years ago when I announced that I was not longer going to go to school for journalism-

I was less than a year from finishing up-

I quit school for a year to figure out what I wanted to do- I had been working for landscape companies since high school - so to me it seemed like a good fit

fast forward some 15 years - I am so glad I made my decision-

Im no putting down your profession- it just wasnt for me-

Im sure you have raised a smart girl - let her prove that to you

Jason

I want to work for Dirtdigger. You hiring?

[dirtdigger88]

I want to work for Dirtdigger. You hiring?

Im always hiring - we just went from 100 people working to 350 this week

Jason

[Dustin]

The truth is that there aren't that many undergrad degrees that automatically lead to a good job these days. So I say: major in whatever floats your boat, has a good program at your school, and will teach critical thinking skills. Whether it's history, philo, english, anthro, linguistics, etc, the important thing is that you understand going into it that you will have to get a grad degree if you want any kind of job prospects. I did English/French lit and then several years later, law. I never for a second thought I'd get a job with my BA, but I have no regrets about doing it!

[dbrk]

Thank goodness she has found her passion. Support her! Encourage her! Everyone gets a job.


dbrk

[swoop]

let go of her handlebars.

its her life now. you had your shot at parenting and controlling and directing... now shut up, pay the bills for a little bit, and let her become an interesting person and find her own way.

your job as parent is now about managing your own anxiety while she walks down her path... which decidedly isn't your path.

you want her aware of how money works? you'll have to involve her in paying for college and let her discover how the world works rather than going around thinking cash appears as needs do.

unless she's ten.

ahh parenting. how fun.

[M.Sommers]

Im always hiring - we just went from 100 people working to 350 this week

Jason

Do you have dental coverage? Any cute chicas in Human Resources I can flirt with? Is there a 'get off early on Fridays to do a half-century then drink' deal?

(i hate my job).

[Sandy]

If I had my life to do over, I would do certain things differently. One for sure would be my choice of work. I majored in math, taught high school math and then attended graduate school in math education. Wound up going into my father's wholesale meat business and stayed there doing that for years until I retired a few years ago. I did reasonably well financially,but received no real enjoyment, satisfaction,feeling of accomplishment, or happiness in doing it. Big mistake! Why? Because I never participated in my job doing what I am passionate about- something with dogs or maybe back with high school kids teaching math or writing children books /stories.

Money can be made at a job but that is not paramount to me. What should trump that is doing what your heart directs you. Work in an area that you have passion. Feel productive in a personal sense and emotionally enjoy that which you do. Money earned from your employment cannot replace that.

If anthropology is her passion today let her major in it with your blessings. Have her, if she does not change her young mind in the future as many people do, speak to her teachers about future employment. But now, let her do what she has a genuine interest in- follow her passion- learn about what truly interests and moves her emotionally. I have met your daughter and she certainly appears to be a clear and level headed thinker. Let her heart tell her where to go. Time may bring changes to her direction. Maybe not. But don't stifle the spark that she has.


Let her follow a passion she has. I wish I did. The rest will work out.

I really wish I had worked in a field associated with dogs. They make me smile. Money does not. It is but a means.

Following a passion by doing what you truly enjoy, with accompanying personal feelings of satisfaction and productivity will produce a happy and contented person. Doing what you don't will not.




Sandy

[thejen12]

My daughter is a freshman at a local college and announced to me this past week that she has decided to major in anthropology. Being the practical Dad that I am, my first response was to ask as benignly as I could exactly what a degree in anthro qualifiies her to do to earn a living.

BBD

BBD,

I think you added quite a bit to her life education by asking her that question. I think a lot of young people are very idealistic, and, as a society we don't do enough to educate our children about responsible finances, etc. It's okay if she majors in anthro knowing the choice she is making and how it will fit into her life plan. It would be irresponsible of you not to help her see the long-range view from an economic standpoint, since she is probably looking at it mostly from an emotional standpoint.

Now that the question has been asked, let her go out and find the answers. I'm sure her professors will be able to help her with that. She has plenty of time to change her mind, I wouldn't worry about it. Know that if she chooses to stay with anthro, she has a better idea of what she's getting into, thanks to you!

Jenn

[johnnymossville]

like I did.

Anthropology is fascinating, I think a forward thinking company looking for intelligence in their workforce can find it anywhere, even in an anthropology graduate. :)

I say good for her. Follow the passion.

[Bradford]

I have two degrees in English (American Literature) and I'm a successful management consultant. The man who runs our practice has a degree in sociology. We just hired a guy who was a double major in the classics and business. And of course, we have plenty of accountants and business majors. All types succeed in business, not just the people who were business majors.

I also have a lead role in our recruiting process and we hired 100 people from campus this year--I interviewed or met all of them. It is easy to find people who understand business functions, it is a lot harder to find people who can think clearly and communicate well. More importantly, when we discuss promotions, thinking and communicating are often what holds people back or propels them forward.

If her chosen major teaches her how to think and communicate, she can always pick up the business function knowledge along the way. I wouldn't change my liberal arts education for anything.

[BumbleBeeDave]

your job as parent is now about managing your own anxiety while she walks down her path... which decidedly isn't your path.

you want her aware of how money works? you'll have to involve her in paying for college and let her discover how the world works rather than going around thinking cash appears as needs do.

I'm working on the "managing my own anxiety" part . . . I just want her to give me a fair hearing about the "benefits" or lack thereof of my own experience. Then if she wants to ignore it she's free to!

As for the money, she is on work study and going to be having lots of loans--only way we could do it. So I'm confident she will know how to manage money to live with. I'm actually more concerned with at least cluing her in to how my own life priorities have changed over the years and how she might keep in mind that hers may, too. I guess that was my biggest mis-judgement when I made my own decisions--not keeping in mind that things DO change over the years and I should have sought out older people and asked how things had changed for them before making my final decision.

In any event, I'm grateful for everyone's advice and I'll see if she will read this thread.

BBD

[paczki]

You could just suggest to her that if she might be interested in being a doctor, or a lawyer, or an economist in the future she could do a minor or take some classes in those areas in addition to her major. But as everyone has said a good liberal arts major is probably as "useful" as majors in more apparently practical areas. History and philosophy students tend to do the best on LSATs

Or she could take some frame-building courses on the side. I hear that that's where the money is. :banana:

[bcm119]

I've met many people whose parents derailed a perfectly good education because they thought it wouldn't be lucrative. None of those people are happy now. What happens when you slog through a law or business degree because you want a high paying job out of college, then realize you hate it (just like you suspected you would), and no amount of money or square footage or nice car makes up for it? Go back and get the degree you wanted in the first place at age 30? This is what happens to kids who want to appease their parents practical desires.

There are millions of us out there whose passions do not translate to lucrative jobs. I would say on average we are no less happy than anyone else. Who knows what the job market will look like by the time your daughter is looking for work. The best things to have are an education in something you really care about and a supportive family, because no matter what the economy is like by then, no one can take that away from you.

[swoop]

I'm working on the "managing my own anxiety" part . . . I just want her to give me a fair hearing about the "benefits" or lack thereof of my own experience. Then if she wants to ignore it she's free to!

As for the money, she is on work study and going to be having lots of loans--only way we could do it. So I'm confident she will know how to manage money to live with. I'm actually more concerned with at least cluing her in to how my own life priorities have changed over the years and how she might keep in mind that hers may, too. I guess that was my biggest mis-judgement when I made my own decisions--not keeping in mind that things DO change over the years and I should have sought out older people and asked how things had changed for them before making my final decision.

In any event, I'm grateful for everyone's advice and I'll see if she will read this thread.

BBD

let her come to you. think of how meaningless your life would be without discovery and struggle. you want to give her power.... don't intervene... and do involve her financially in her education.

[davids]

let her come to you. think of how meaningless your life would be without discovery and struggle. you want to give her power.... don't intervene... and do involve her financially in her education.I'd have swoop's babies, if I wasn't fixed n stuff.

BBD, Check this (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/magazine/01parenting.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/R/Religion%20and%20Belief) out.

[shinomaster]

Don't worry, as soon as she gets to college she'll be majoring in alcoholism, keg stands, and smoking pot.

[capybaras]

As long as she graduates with good writing skills, fluency in another language, and a statistics course she will be in good shape to do anything she wants. (Tell her not to skip Western Civ. though.)

[swoop]

just keep her off the pole and out of girls gone wild.
have you searched the phrase 'college girls' lately on the interweb?

not good.

[Sasha18]

I teach at a university and I would have to echo most of the comments here. It doesn't really matter what she majors in, so long as her grades are good. It's a lot better to be a 3.7 anthro student with good experiences than a 2.7 business student slacker. My only suggestions would be establish close ties with faculty that can write her letters of recommendation later on. and if she's at a big university, try to take advantage of some of the interesting programs. Universities always offer unconventional but really great field study, study abroad, or other kinds of courses. It's to easy to just take the bare minimum and scoot on out.

And if she comes to you after a year and half to declare she's dropping out, don't worry. I did. And I went back three years later. And now I'm about done with my PhD in an equally worthless field - History.

As for bongs and keg stands, that's college too.

[jeffg]

Don't give in the anti-intellectual bias rampant in this country and see her education solely as a means to earning income.

I studied German, got paid to bum around Vienna for a year, got a fancy law degree, etc.

My friend with a Ph.D. in anthro actually uses her degree in blended public/private consulting and makes a great living and loves what she is doing ... she is likely the happiest person I know with her life/work balance.

On weekends when I am working, she tends to be surfing ...

[swoop]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/girls_gone_wild_on_campus/

[Tom]

One could take a nice practical degree like Computer Science and wind up working in a six foot cloth box, weekdays, nights and weekends. The money's great, but why do I keep thinking about how I'm going to enjoy retirement when it's still 15 years out?

Or one could follow their passion and enjoy every step of the journey.

[catulle]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/girls_gone_wild_on_campus/

Those are likely the girls that wanted to study Anthropology and were forced to study heart surgery. ;)

[rsl]

I have 3 impractical degrees - AB in history and religious studies (univ. of Missouri) and a Masters in theology (Harvard).

I switched about midway through college from a more practical degree to something that I wanted to do and my parents panicked. As a result of the switch, however, I learned to love learning, I honestly think I learned how to think creatively, deeply, and broadly, and it motivated me to do some interesting things post-graduation. After all of this, I realized that I have an excellent foundation for law school, and I'm entering into a top program next fall. I honestly don't think this is the course my life would have followed had I stuck with more practical majors.

Of course, this is all highly anecdotal, subjective, and subject to a lot of extraneous factors. Plus, I'm not a parent. But I do feel very strongly that impractical majors are not worth worrying about, and can be highly advantageous in many ways.

[DukeHorn]

Life is a highway, I'm going to ride it all night long...

Let her enjoy the ride. I double-majored in college, one degree for my Asian parents (chemical engineering, on scholarship) and one degree for myself (Plan II liberal Arts honors at UT-Austin). Surprise, the degree for myself was a 4.0 in history and the degree for my parents was a 3.0. Postponed graduation one year so I could study WWII in France on scholarship, that upset the parents immensely, but I said I wasn't going to turn down the chance to go to Europe for free.

Did the same thing in law school (one practical degree--the JD) and one passion degree (Master's in military history).

Since UT-Austin was so cheap, I also took a lot of architecture and art history classes (best investment for traveling ever). Grad and professional schools are basically vocational schools anyway, so I'll advise my kids to explore a lot while doing the undergrad (as long as you don't pull a total Slacker (ala Richard Linklater).

[rsl]

Since UT-Austin was so cheap, I also took a lot of architecture and art history classes (best investment for traveling ever). Grad and professional schools are basically vocational schools anyway, so I'll advise my kids to explore a lot while doing the undergrad (as long as you don't pull a total Slacker (ala Richard Linklater).

On that note, if there's any chance that your daughter will go on to grad school or professional school (with the exception, I think, of med school and quantitative-based PhD programs) an excellent job done in any undergraduate major will reap big benefits in getting into good grad/professional programs.

Better to what you like as an undergrad and do it very well, there will be payoff later I think.

[davids]

I have 3 impractical degrees - AB in history and religious studies (univ. of Missouri) and a Masters in theology (Harvard).

I switched about midway through college from a more practical degree to something that I wanted to do and my parents panicked. As a result of the switch, however, I learned to love learning, I honestly think I learned how to think creatively, deeply, and broadly, and it motivated me to do some interesting things post-graduation. After all of this, I realized that I have an excellent foundation for law school, and I'm entering into a top program next fall. I honestly don't think this is the course my life would have followed had I stuck with more practical majors.

Of course, this is all highly anecdotal, subjective, and subject to a lot of extraneous factors. Plus, I'm not a parent. But I do feel very strongly that impractical majors are not worth worrying about, and can be highly advantageous in many ways.First theology and then law? Weird. ;)

I was recently part of my synagogue's search committee for a new rabbi, and we saw a lot of candidates - maybe 10 out of 40 - who'd been lawyers in their previous lives.

[rsl]

First theology and then law? Weird. ;)

I was recently part of my synagogue's search committee for a new rabbi, and we saw a lot of candidates - maybe 10 out of 40 - who'd been lawyers in their previous lives.

Yeah, a lot of my friends are saying the same thing! :)

For me, studying theology at harvard was more like studying religiously-informed-social justice, which turned me on to human rights. So for, me it's a move to study human rights and international law with the end goal of doing something more hands on.

[davids]

Yeah, a lot of my friends are saying the same thing! :)

For me, studying theology at harvard was more like studying religiously-informed-social justice, which turned me on to human rights. So for, me it's a move to study human rights and international law with the end goal of doing something more hands on.nice

[Bruce K]

Dave;

I know I'm a little late to this thread but.....

I think the real issue is that you're just afraid she might figure out what makes you tick. ;)

Gen will be fine. She is a bright young lady and because her parents (you and her mom) gave her good tools for life she will do well. :banana:

As others have stated she will either branch out into other fields, pursue this one to some type of teaching or research, or change it long before she graduates.

I wouldn't get too down on her choice as you want to support her with the same strength that you always have, even if it means that you don't completely agree with the choice.

BK

[catulle]

Imagine if Atmo would've attended Goddard. He'd now be another glitterati filling the air with neologisms and other aberrations of the language instead of building red bikes during his short breaks from the Dell. :help:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Imagine if Atmo would've attended Goddard. He'd now be another glitterati filling the air with neologisms and other aberrations of the language instead of building red bikes during his short breaks from the Dell. :help:

. . . a six year wait for a neologism? :rolleyes:

BBD

[Tonger]

BBD,

I know I'm in the minority here but I think your question to your daughter was a good one. As parents, it has become our full time job to create an environment that is as safe yet fulfilling for our kids as possible. Being the father of girls, their safety and security is absolutely paramount both now and long after I'm gone. I believe that one of the greatest gifts that we can give our children is to make them self sufficient to the point that they will never need to be dependent upon anyone else (or put up with an untenable situation) for the sake of their livelihood.

As hard as my wife and I have worked, we have it set up in our wills such that aside from educational expenses, if anything were to happen to us the girls would not receive any funds until they are well beyond middle age. Coldhearted as it seems, it is just our goal not to reduce our kids initiative or independence. Think about it this way --> What made you stay in and study on a Fri/Sat night when your buds were out carousing? It was probably either a desire for success or a fear of failure. Now think about how much harder that decision would be if you had a guaranteed financial fallback. I don't know about you, but as an 18 year old I'd go out with my buds. To a great degree it was the fear of landing on my *ss that made me work... To me, college isn't just about finding the love of your academic life or what topics you find to be the most fun, it's about establishing a sound foundation to build a life upon - including a financial one.

The cost of a college education has increased well out of proportion to the general average salary. While I don't think that any of us would place ourselves in a position to be "upside down" in a car loan or intentionally purchase a devaluating stock, why would we do it with our education?


Good luck to you,

Tonger

[gt6267a]

As an engineer, when I look back over my academics and current career options, there is a relationship and to be fair, I don’t love it. No doubt, career choices made in progress have impacted things but as I look to make changes, its clear it won’t be easy to find myself a less technical role. People look at my resume and only one word pops into their head “dork”. The money is fine but I am tired of the hands on computer action and would like something more social, but, so far, no one wants to take a risk that the dork is able to and will enjoy talking.

My point in writing is that if your daughter picked engineering you might not be having this conversation with her now, but you might have a different one with her later. You are getting good advice in letting her look under a few stones and maybe knock a few over. If I could go back and talk to 18 year old gt6267a, my advice would be to double major. Spread the wings a little and learn not just to learn but about an array of topics, then go specialize in grad school.

[Fixed]

I have very bright son all a's in an i.b. school he's in the 9 th grade .he has been interested in law for a few years .. he also plays the piano since he was 5 over 10 years all classical he likes rockmanoff . he also teaches piano at his old middle school as an after school job .. well you get my drift he tells me ...dad i'd like to get my under grad drgee in music then go to law school .
my wife freaked at the idea starving artist thing we know about that ..i said he's in the 9th grade dreams are good but as soon as meets a girl ..who is as smart as he i think he will pick something with more earning potential


here is what my friend said once to me
the 100 best lawyer in fla makes more money than the 100 best bike racer in the world
he's a lawyer
cheers
cheers

[swoop]

the reason i raced bikes a fervently as i did the last few years was to make up for not racing in my twenties. going to belgium with a friend and a few hundred bucks and learning how to man-up. i wish i hadn't avoided it out of fear.

its my only regret.


at least i hit it hard in my thirties and 40's and got to fulfill some of the fantasies. it matters more to me than i can convey.

[johnnymossville]

If you are good at it and love doing it, you'll succeed and live with a level of happiness. Job, Hobbies, Relationships, Family. There is more to life than money. At least I would hope so.

[catulle]

There is more to life than money.

Money is like toilet paper. You need it because it's kind 'a bothersome to hang around with a dirty butt.

[catulle]

here is what my friend said once to me
the 100 best lawyer in fla makes more money than the 100 best bike racer in the world
he's a lawyer
cheers
cheers

Er, the 5 best lawyers make more money than the best 1000 pro cyclists in the world. And that's including what's his name.

[97CSI]

Relax. Support her decision and make sure that she does the best she can and she will be fine. Maybe even famous, some day. Much more important to learn to work hard at whatever you do and be happy doing it, than anything else in life. I tell my students that every day. But, as they are only in the 9th grade, it doesn't sink in until some years later.

[caleb]

College isn't about job training.

[Grant McLean]

College isn't about job training.

+1 million

learn. it's harder than you think.

g

[Ozz]

...Otherwise, vocational school seems like what one should do if the point is to get a job.

Fly-pal is smart.

[Kevan]

The funny stuff parents go through:

Daughter Brennan is on the phone, "Dad, but I don't want to work for the big man."

Dad smiles into the phone, reflects, understands and responds, "I know dear, but the big man pays well."

Son Tucker dropped a small bomb during the winter holiday, pretty nervous and pale dropping it, "I want to take a year off before going to college."

Dad smiles looking back at the boy, reflects, understands and responds, "Hell, yeah...I think you would be wise to do it."
Then I added, "But don't think for one minute you'll be lazing about this house sleeping to all hours, doing nothing. You'll be working harder than you ever have before!"

Heck, even my own father is still my father....

[97CSI]

College isn't about job training.Yep......its thinking like this that has helped move our jobs off-shore. Young people don't know how to work today. It is an acquired trait. Your aren't born with it. You either 'get it' and are successful, or, you don't and are not.

[Ginger]

Dave, good luck!

You can't make her mistakes for her.

You *did* ask a good question. I had an old italian uncle who would ask that sort of thing when I'd relate what I was studying in school that I thought was really cool...it was mostly annoying at the time.

[stevep]

let her love what she does.
makes all the difference.

[rwsaunders]

Ask her to name a couple of anthropologists who work outside the academic field. Then ask her if she can hack it in the academic field.

My cousin is an anthropologist who has traveled the world, but it's been on academia's dime. If she can make the grades and put up with the constant search for funding and grants, then you have a budding anthropologist on your hands.

[1centaur]

Plenty of good advice to pick and choose from here, to which I will add that YOU should contact the placement office at her school and push until you have good statistics on where the anthro majors of the last few years at that school went after graduation. Give her that data to fill out her field of view.

While the advice of many here - that it does not matter what you major in as long as you have talent and drive - is somewhat true, that advice almost requires graduate school or exceptional interpersonal skills and self-vision to get employers past the major if she goes in a different direction when seeking early-career employment. The former is expensive to somebody (more loans/debt/time) and the latter only you know about your daughter. If an anthro major came to my work to be interviewed by me for a job in my profession (I have interviewed hundreds of people over the years) I would be highly skeptical that she understood where she was heading in life. Employers like to see a logical progression that suggests self-knowledge and predictable outcomes. Going off on a tangential major on a whim could cut off a number of possible careers unless it is offset by graduate school. Thus, BBD, you are asking the right questions. Not everyone can afford the luxury of learning for learning's sake.

In the end, her decision, but not one to be taking lightly as if all learning experiences are equal in their implications - they are not.

[Elefantino]

My 16-year-old wants to be a lawyer and politician and already knows where she wants to go to school, Davidson College.

:banana: and :crap:

[Fat Robert]

adding to the pile:

job satisfaction is far more important than salary. however, it takes a reflective, well-trained mind and spirit to be able to discern whether or not one is satisfied, and fulfilling one's purpose. an educational path that is chosen for its intrinsic rewards and challenges will help someone grow into the kind of self-aware person who can, hopefully, find a truly satisfying path. an education chosen for its extrinsic rewards and practicality, and that doesn't speak to the person's sense of calling, won't.

autobiographical gibberish:

i went through eight years of grad school to get a terminal degree. then i discovered that although i'd been pretty, if not quite, good at the publication game, i nevertheless had no motivation to do it after i finished my degree. what i wanted to do was make a living playing music. so i did that. then i found that i had hit my limit with that, so i started teaching high school, and found out that i loved it more than teaching in college. now, i'm in the process of finding out whether or not the time is right for my wife and i to pack up and dive into three more years of school, all to take up a career that would increase my stresses exponentially while also cutting my pay in half. however, i feel a deep yearning and calling to be an episcopal priest. so, i could care less about the money. i want to serve god and my church as my career. as pooch would say, fawk the rest. had i made other choices, i wouldn't have met my wife. i wouldn't have tried to write and submit poems, and i wouldn't have discovered the joy of having the luck to get them published (today was a fun day -- when i get an acceptance, i give all my kids 5 bonus points on whatever they are doing when i open the e-mail...man did my AP class hit the jackpot today...). i wouldn't have found the episcopal church. i wouldn't be wasting my time on the serotta board....

if she loves it, and is willing to pour her heart and sweat into it, let her do it. she'll learn how to really go after something she loves and work to get good at it. if she learns that, she (in forum jargon) will get it.

[Skrawny]

BBD,
I was always the kind of kid that would do the opposite of whatever my parents pushed me to do.

As a freshman I majored in theater. My parents were likely not thrilled but knew me well enough to know they couldn't push. They were likely just as concerned as you are that I was not only happy but be able to support myself enough to stay happy, but they encouraged me anyway. I found my own way out of the theater and into medicine.

-s

[caleb]

Yep......its thinking like this that has helped move our jobs off-shore.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the idea that education needs no outside justification is a key causal factor in the outsourcing of jobs that used to be in America. Essentially, you're saying that if American education was and had been viewed as job training, this outsourcing would not have occurred, or would have occurred to a lesser extent (simple Humian causation).

The problem with this argument is that higher education was not broadly viewed as job training until after WWII (facilitated by the GI Bill), and this view has only recently become dominant.

From the Greeks to 1944, education was a self-justifying activity, and it explicitly resisted being viewed in functional terms. Professionalization was usually carried out through apprenticeship. For example, law has only been taught as a university subject for 200 years or so. Prior to that it was taught through apprenticeship in a guild system, like most other professions. In very recent history such training has come under the umbrella of universities.

The point is that the loss of American jobs has nothing to do with viewing education as an end in itself. The functionalization of education after WWII is, in fact, positively correlated with the loss of American jobs.

[caleb]

Ask her to name a couple of anthropologists who work outside the academic field. Then ask her if she can hack it in the academic field.

Two things:

First, you're right, academia is really tough. Think long and hard before setting sail.

Also, the undergrad anthro BBD's daughter is doing now bears almost no resemblance to graduate and professional research. Frankly, she has zero perspective to understand whether or not she wants to become a professional anthropologist because she's never done anything like it. At the professional level it’s all about math and regression formulas.

Second, don't underestimate the hirability of a social science degree. Of the people I know well who make big decisions and have executive authority to back those decisions up in Fortune 500 companies, every single one was a social science or humanities major in college. They include Hispanic studies (Target), Russian (Cargill), political science (Best Buy; Target; General Mills), and economics (Piper Jaffray; Merrill Lynch; Target). That’s excluding all of the political science majors I know who work for the government doing interesting work both domestically and abroad, and all the attorneys. Granted, we all went to a good school (the same one) and performed well. The point is that a degree does not determine where you end up.

For a bit of perspective, of all the people I know who majored in the “hard” sciences (chemistry, physics, and math), not a single one has authority along the lines of the people mentioned above. They’re in a lab and, while they might be well paid, they take orders rather than give them.

[paczki]

Also, the undergrad anthro BBD's daughter is doing now bears almost no resemblance to graduate and professional research. Frankly, she has zero perspective to understand whether or not she wants to become a professional anthropologist because she's never done anything like it. At the professional level it’s all about math and regression formulas.


Not cultural anthropology -- what she wants to study. It's different from most other social science fields that way.

[caleb]

Not cultural anthropology -- what she wants to study. It's different from most other social science fields that way.

Please explain - I'm not an anthropologist. Most fields of social research have developed a strong quantitative bent in the past half century. I'm curious about how cultural anthro has resisted this trend.

Who are the paradigmatic figures? Are we talking about guys like Clifford Geertz and/or Claude Levi-Strauss?

[Ginger]

My other thought Dave was:

Don't answer the question for her.


My annoying uncle who used to ask me what I was going to be when I grew up? Yeah, annoying, but his questions made me look at things in a more realistic manner. Just what *was* I going to do with this Scientific and Technical Communications degree? That caused me to be a bit more realistic with my options classes than some of my class mates.

[jeffg]

BBD,

I know I'm in the minority here but I think your question to your daughter was a good one. As parents, it has become our full time job to create an environment that is as safe yet fulfilling for our kids as possible. Being the father of girls, their safety and security is absolutely paramount both now and long after I'm gone. I believe that one of the greatest gifts that we can give our children is to make them self sufficient to the point that they will never need to be dependent upon anyone else (or put up with an untenable situation) for the sake of their livelihood.

As hard as my wife and I have worked, we have it set up in our wills such that aside from educational expenses, if anything were to happen to us the girls would not receive any funds until they are well beyond middle age. Coldhearted as it seems, it is just our goal not to reduce our kids initiative or independence. Think about it this way --> What made you stay in and study on a Fri/Sat night when your buds were out carousing?
Tonger

Independence is great. Money or lack thereof is generally not a factor in acquiring it unless you are trapped in poverty.

I am perhaps biased since cancer prevented my dad from seeing me through high school and will likely preclude my mom from seeing our boys past intermediate school, but what my parents got me through their hard work was the freedom to study what I wanted and the feeling that life is too short not to follow your passion (within certain bounds -- see girls gone wild). I ended up in law (for now) to support my own family but I worked my A$$ off in college and graduate school because I loved it and I knew my parents made my undergrad possible. My wife is just as smart as I if not more so but she had to work to more than I did to put herself through school and that made it that much tougher for her.

She studied anthropology and ended up with a Yale MBA
I followed German through Amherst to a Fulbright, a doctoral program at Yale (left after qualifying exams), and a Stanford law degree. Not bad for something many a person told us were useless degrees ...

[julia]

Robert Pirsig's "Lila" makes its way to a damning philosophical take on anthropology from the point of view of a professor of the subject. Reading it might offer one more perspective to throw into the deciding process.

[1centaur]

There's an irony in this thread: the belief that getting into Harvard (Yale/Stanford/Princeton) is very important to later success is getting validated while the belief that major makes a difference is being diminished. An anthro grad of Harvard is a Harvard grad first and both gets a lot of street cred from that and is likely to be an overachiever. An anthro grad from Podunk U is an anthro grad.

My unalloyed advice: Pick something you love enough that you can be near the top of your major, because then either employers will care or grad schools will care. Top of your major at Podunk U gets more love from grad schools than middle of your major at U Penn.

[paczki]

Please explain - I'm not an anthropologist. Most fields of social research have developed a strong quantitative bent in the past half century. I'm curious about how cultural anthro has resisted this trend.

Who are the paradigmatic figures? Are we talking about guys like Clifford Geertz and/or Claude Levi-Strauss?

It's resisted this trend in order to differentiate itself from sociology and economics! It goes back to the special stress on the participant observer method and fieldwork.

Those are some paradigmatic figures, others are Malinowski, Evans-Pritchard, Sapir, Boas.

[giordana93]

wow, it's obvious that I missed the posts for a day because I would have jumped on this. I missed precisely because I was at a meeting of a bunch of academics trying to figure out how we can make a degree in languages more attractive to all those paying customers, I mean students, who, like their parents, have come to think that a college education is vo-tech and that it is a right, not a privilege. I could write a book on the answer to your questions Dave, but as I'm already known for somewhat verbose responses, I'll try to limit myself (usually fail)

liberal arts majors, done correctly, teach you HOW to think, not WHAT, and it is a skill set that can transfer to any field, except maybe accounting or computer science, fields that are full of well-paid but often miserable people who don't have the time to spend the money they are making. critical analysis is the ability to read through bull crap, or make sense out of complex issues and convey them in well-thought out arguments and discourse--in other words, people learn how to read and write, and how to think critically. those skills are essential (but rare) in many jobs; the problem is that the liberal arts major does not know how to market those skills because the ivory tower prof's don't have to do that, they just have to write like mad and spew out academic drivel--I completely understand fat robert on this, and luckily I'm at a mediocre institution (oops, better be careful!) where we can concentrate on teaching as well--and must, because our teaching load is higher than the research-type institutions. ok, end of that line of thought

so, argument 1: anthro can actually lead to a good job in most any field provided she does the right prep (minor in business, industrial psychology) blah blah
argument 2: anthro can be pre-med, pre-law. law is about research, reading carefully, writing well, and creative and critical thinking about arguments. pre-med isn't a major, you can do anything as long as it includes the prerequisites for med school and you take the MCATs
argument 3: the above 2 assume you are worried about her actually getting a job in anthro, and it is a reasonable concern, esp. if she wants an academic life. BUT, a buddy of mine left traditional anthro to do MEDICAL anthro and he has the best of both worlds: didn't do med school, but has a semi-academic job but doesn't teach, just research, on occasionally interesting topics. he's doing quite well financially (much better than the anthro guys at a university) and has the "schedule" advantage of working at his own pace, blah, blah.


btw, I was a 3.9 3rd year pre-med and quit to become a French lit. major. I have regrets occasionally, often even, but so do some of my doctor friends. My dad didn't freak out; on the contrary, he had respect for his college prof's, and he knew I was smart enough to figure the other things out. The thread about going to Berkeley Law had a good link about why NOT to go to law school that in turn had a link about doing what you love. I'll append them:


how to do what you love (http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html)

maybe a bit idealistic, but I think we need more idealism in life


why you shouldn't go to law school (http://lawandletters.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-you-shouldnt-go-to-law-school.html)
some ideas apply to all those "I'm gonna do this and make lots o'money" type careers, including medicine. I quit it largely because I hated the people I was going to school with and couldn't stomach another 4-10 years with guys who were already trying to finance a his and her Rolex. I wish that were a joke.
cheers,
Marvin
feel free to pm. good thread

[Dave B]

How has no one mentioned Indiana Jones yet!

If your daughter becomes a modern day version of that, how cool would that be?


Wait were we being serious? :crap:

[Tonger]

Independence is great. Money or lack thereof is generally not a factor in acquiring it unless you are trapped in poverty.

I am perhaps biased since cancer prevented my dad from seeing me through high school and will likely preclude my mom from seeing our boys past intermediate school, but what my parents got me through their hard work was the freedom to study what I wanted and the feeling that life is too short not to follow your passion (within certain bounds -- see girls gone wild). I ended up in law (for now) to support my own family but I worked my A$$ off in college and graduate school because I loved it and I knew my parents made my undergrad possible. My wife is just as smart as I if not more so but she had to work to more than I did to put herself through school and that made it that much tougher for her.

She studied anthropology and ended up with a Yale MBA
I followed German through Amherst to a Fulbright, a doctoral program at Yale (left after qualifying exams), and a Stanford law degree. Not bad for something many a person told us were useless degrees ...


Jeff,

I respect the fact that you did what you loved as an undergrad and I think it's wonderful that you and your wife have done so well. However, a common theme in both your post and so many others in this thread is that you can do whatever you want as long as you get a "useful" degree in graduate school (i.e. law or MBA in your case). I'm sure that BBD would sleep very well at night if his young queen were guaranteed to go to law or MBA school after finishing her undergrad. For the majority of undergrads, this is simply not the case.

I also think that its unfair to characterize people who select fields that are well compensated as being one-dimensional enough to use that as the sole selection criterion. I work in health care with so many other people who's "compensation package" is primarily defined by the good we do in people's lives. This topic is not really as black and white as portrayed by many posters (i.e. all engineers, doctors and lawyers are coldhearted, money grubbing, and hate their jobs). There are many shades of gray and I think that it is certainly possible to find one that suits both the intellectual interests and lifestyle expectations of BBD's kid.

As long as she knows fully what she getting into, she has every right to make her own decision. However, I honestly think that BBD should have at least a limited advisory role since 1) He loves his kid, 2) He is helping to fund her education, 3) He has a longer perspective than she does as a college freshman, and 4) He is likely expected to have at least some role in supporting her economically down the line if she needs assistance.

This thread has touched a nerve in many folks on basic philosophical and political levels. In fact, I would even venture that one could likely review each post in this thread and predict with a reasonable degree of accuracy how each poster will be voting in the upcoming presidential elections... :beer:

Tonger

[giordana93]

well said Tonger!
I was running late and had already blabbered for a long stretch and did not get to add that some of the people I studied with as a pre-med were cool; that most of my riding buddies in grad school were engineers or material scientists and that they were quite cool too (one of them, though, just could not wrap his head around what a Ph.D. in literature was all about; if it didn't involve an experiment and data, he was lost. "how can you call THAT research?" (book on 16th century French poetry, say from a neo-Marxist angle!) followed by a "what do you do all day?" whereas our buddy in ceramics had to leave the pub for an hour or so to go stoke his big oven...

my point, and those who were trying to defend the "do what you love even if it's not lucrative" position (and yes, there may even be some bitterness from the "have less" crowd) was just that, and that what you learn in anthro has VALUE; what I hated about pre-med (other than the dicks I mentioned, and there were plenty--and you know the type, I'm sure, the ones who end up in surgery and disdainful of those in GP; again not all surgeons of course!) was that the "humanistic" side of things was absolutely and completely absent. and it bored me. and the idea that anything that does not make money has no value is, well, stupid.
EVERYTHING in this country is driven by money, including higher ed. It is a valid question: after spending 110k on a degree, you don't want to be buried in debt in a low-paying job..... crap, I'm rambling again. Must stop and get back to work and letting the thread carry on. So one last thought--and apologies for a total hijacking of the thread--the French have problems in their economy, they pay much higher taxes, still have ghettos to a degree (mostly arab kids: hello, can you understand why they see the middle east differently...). BUT. college is essentially FREE, and admission to university is not based on whether you can pay, but not everyone gets to go either. and there is NO grade inflation. average (C) is average, period. And second, it is French law that everyone must take 5 weeks vacation. Raise your hand if you wouldn't appreciate that. After 10 years in corporate America as an engineer with same company, my wife gets 10 days. Because time is money, right? This is NOT to say the French are better, just to add some perspective. OK, end of rant. I hope to speak for all the defenders of the do what you love crowd (including the underpaid bike shop and bike industry guys!) that we know lots of people got into medicine or law for the right reasons, or that they were fascinated by engineering stuff. that's cool. maybe we're just a little jealous that the annual salaries of some folks--teachers, social workers, shop rat who dialed in your fit--couldn't even pay the tax bill of the well compensated. Know how many teachers you could hire for one college coach's salary? does anyone in corporate America deserve to make millions in one year--when they get fired? ok, I'll stop there. super cheers to all of you and forgive my lengthy, thread-drifting posts. I promise to stop! :beer:

[Tom]

And another thing... if you know how to think you can do anything. If you know how to do one lucrative yet narrow skill, you better save your money because when the need for your skill dries up yer screwed.

[giordana93]

And another thing... if you know how to think you can do anything. If you know how to do one lucrative yet narrow skill, you better save your money because when the need for your skill dries up yer screwed.

+1
...or when they figure out how to out-source it!

[Fat Robert]

This thread has touched a nerve in many folks on basic philosophical and political levels. In fact, I would even venture that one could likely review each post in this thread and predict with a reasonable degree of accuracy how each poster will be voting in the upcoming presidential elections... :beer:

Tonger

Maybe

My parents have been huge supporters of my education and life choices, all the way back to when i was 18 (I'm 41). My dad loved to be an executive. he loved managing, and he loved being fairly compensated for his work. He eventually ran just about half of an insurance company. He was once a member of the john birch society. His motto to my sister (who now works for the same insurance company) was to do what you love, then let the rest fall into place. He's proud and pleased that I want to get a M. Div., and tells me not to mind the debt.

I come from a family of sentimental suckers....

[giordana93]

nice point Robert. my dad said something along the same lines: if you have to get up every morning and go to a job you hate, no amount of money will make it right, and if you get up happy to go to work, it's worth more than any monetary value.

anyone have that statistic about people who are happy with what they do and with lower stress living longer?

[davids]

It's resisted this trend in order to differentiate itself from sociology and economics! It goes back to the special stress on the participant observer method and fieldwork.

Those are some paradigmatic figures, others are Malinowski, Evans-Pritchard, Sapir, Boas.I love Evans-Pritchard. "Witchcraft, Oracles, and Magic among the Azande" rocked my world.

E-P argued that anthropology is more like history or literary criticism than a science. Makes it much harder, atmo.

[kgreene10]

A lot of sensible advice here, so this may get lost in the mix, but here goes.

I started undergrad as part of a dual major program in Engineering Physics and Political Science because I wanted to dismantle nuclear bombs. I quickly realized that Physics wasn't for me, but I loved Political Science. My dad couldn't see it then, nor when I backpacked for a year through Latin America, nor when I took eight years to do a PhD in it.

Now I'm a university professor at a top program and my first book just came out a few months ago. I certainly could have made more money in another career, but I get to teach young people how to think about the world and I have a book in my name that will be in libraries around the world until the apocalypse.

As an educator in a related field, I strongly value a liberal arts degree. Top corporate managers say that the main skill they appreciate and find lacking is good writing skills. Working with my students -- even the honors thesis writers -- I can see their point. Quality writing is also related to quality thinking.

So, if your daughter is truly motivated to learn as an Anthro major, I think she will gain the skills to do well in a number of professions, none of which include hawking French fries. She certainly won't gain the technical skills -- as an undergrad -- to be an engineer or a programmer, but then again, many students go to grad school these days.

My other little bit of advice, if I may, is about motivation in general. There is a vast, vast difference in the amount my students learn between the motivated/interested and the unmotivated/sleepy. It seems to me that the latter get so little out of college that I often wonder why, aside from convention, they are here. The motivated/interested crowd grows in the space of four years into thriving and intellectually hungry adults.

[Oirad]

Thank goodness she has found her passion. Support her! Encourage her! Everyone gets a job.


dbrk

What dbrk wrote +1. -- Oirad

[swoop]

Robert Frost (1874–1963). Mountain Interval. 1920.

1. The Road Not Taken


TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 20

[Acotts]

do you think it pays worse than journalism . . . :confused:

Jason


I just want to say that my journalism degree has paid itself off a hundred fold. Along with english and communications, I think that they are the best areas of study there is.

I mean seriously, it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you can express yourself in an email, do a presentation or command the language that we speak, then you wont get very far.

I have 20 engineers who work for me, simply becuase they can't communicate and I can. I learned power engineering, and I am learning politics while they crunch numbers for me.

As for the anthro degree, I would be fine as long as the school requires a good healthy dose of liberal arts education.

By the way, on the topics of school, UNC is going to win the championship and will officially make the greatest shool ever, even better!

PEACE!!

[Acotts]

A lot of sensible advice here, so this may get lost in the mix, but here goes.

I started undergrad as part of a dual major program in Engineering Physics and Political Science because I wanted to dismantle nuclear bombs. I quickly realized that Physics wasn't for me, but I loved Political Science. My dad couldn't see it then, nor when I backpacked for a year through Latin America, nor when I took eight years to do a PhD in it.

Now I'm a university professor at a top program and my first book just came out a few months ago. I certainly could have made more money in another career, but I get to teach young people how to think about the world and I have a book in my name that will be in libraries around the world until the apocalypse.

As an educator in a related field, I strongly value a liberal arts degree. Top corporate managers say that the main skill they appreciate and find lacking is good writing skills. Working with my students -- even the honors thesis writers -- I can see their point. Quality writing is also related to quality thinking.

So, if your daughter is truly motivated to learn as an Anthro major, I think she will gain the skills to do well in a number of professions, none of which include hawking French fries. She certainly won't gain the technical skills -- as an undergrad -- to be an engineer or a programmer, but then again, many students go to grad school these days.

My other little bit of advice, if I may, is about motivation in general. There is a vast, vast difference in the amount my students learn between the motivated/interested and the unmotivated/sleepy. It seems to me that the latter get so little out of college that I often wonder why, aside from convention, they are here. The motivated/interested crowd grows in the space of four years into thriving and intellectually hungry adults.

Great post. Oh how i would love to go back to college again. I think that I would just devour some knowledge. I would be raising my hand everyday for more knowledge 30 seconds before class went out. Now-a-days I just have to settle for books, but it just isn't the same. No time to concentrate anymore.

Luckily I have always been a good student, but I had no idea the opportunities that I had in my reach then.

[97CSI]

I just want to say that my journalism degree has paid itself off a hundred fold. Along with english and communications, I think that they are the best areas of study there is.

I mean seriously, it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you can express yourself in an email, do a presentation or command the language that we speak, then you wont get very far.

I have 20 engineers who work for me, simply becuase they can't communicate and I can. I learned power engineering, and I am learning politics while they crunch numbers for me.

As for the anthro degree, I would be fine as long as the school requires a good healthy dose of liberal arts education.

By the way, on the topics of school, UNC is going to win the championship and will officially make the greatest shool ever, even better!

PEACE!!Yeah......right. Other than the glaring grammatical errors and misspellings above you are doing a wonderful job. We engineers laugh at you.

[Acotts]

Yeah......right. Other than the glaring grammatical errors and misspellings above you are doing a wonderful job. We engineers laugh at you.

Yeah, I certainly dont pay much attention to my posts. I kind of use these things as a respite from my work. It would seriously kill me to grammar check these posts. Seriously.

Sincerely, I am sorry for being derogatory towards engineers. I didnt mean it that way. I am like a cornered dog when it comes to defending a liberal arts degree. I work in an industry run by engineers who do things I can only talk/write about and are far more vital to the success of our country and my organization that I will ever be. They also design the bikes I ride and all the cool little parts that I cant stop buying. Whereas i just talk about it.

That said it can be a frustrating endeavor, and the folks who work for me can be stubborn like mules who scoff at realities of the world and human nature preferring their numbers.

It takes both kinds, I guess. Sorry if I dissed.

[swoop]

engineers slapping liberal arts dude=campy
liberal arts dude slagging engineers with poor grammar=shimano
kid takes a year off before college and lives on prescription pot= sram

[kgreene10]

Great post. Oh how i would love to go back to college again. I think that I would just devour some knowledge. I would be raising my hand everyday for more knowledge 30 seconds before class went out. Now-a-days I just have to settle for books, but it just isn't the same. No time to concentrate anymore.

Luckily I have always been a good student, but I had no idea the opportunities that I had in my reach then.

Now if I could only get my students to study with the intensity that we forumites discuss all things bike.

[DukeHorn]

I think the views here are also representative of geographical locations.

My resume in Dallas gets a baffled "***", while in the Bay Area, it's not totally outside the realm of the inconceivable.

The fact that I gave up a really good 6 figure salary at a boutique law firm in DC to go back to grad school for a $22,000 stipend just does not compute in certain parts of the country.

The fact that I get to teach students and now work on stem cell therapies (at a lower salary than my DC days) is fulfilling to me and I still can pay the bills.

But I know plenty of McKinsey consultant types and Stanford MBAers in this area that work at non-profits and make less than they did beforehand, so I don't feel different.

[I Want Sachs?]

Anthropology degree is useless to help me to be faster on my bike.

My cardiologist concnetrated in Anthropology at Brown University, and he keeps me alive.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I really appreciate all the feedback and advice and I'm going to send a link to my daughter so she can read it, too. You have all given the context and depth of advice that I don't think I would get anywhere else.

My forum friends come through again! :banana: :banana: :banana:

BBD

[manet]

I'm going to send a link to my daughter so she can read it, too.



let's give her a forum name

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . she's already BumbleBeeGeneva!

BBD

[manet]

in that case let's have a convention and fix her an avatar

[Kirk007]

It's hard to chime in as I agree with many of the words of wisdom here, but hey why not! Dave, I think your pragmatic question was fine, its a big part of life, but by all means encourage her to follow her passion. The rest will follow; with "the rest" being happiness, which is really what counts (or maybe its just that I'm reading Three Cups of Tea and I can see Mortenson's point about the comparative happiness of the Pakistanis he writes about compared to many Westerners).

For me, the difference between working (which is the wrong word) doing what I love, what I believe in, what I find socially redeeming and worthwhile, what I am proud to share with my son as an example, cannot be measured by financial yardsticks. Indeed, if I had stayed in private practice of law, which for me was very lucrative but absolutely soulless, I would most likely be divorced and probably would have blown my career up in some fashion. Chasing money just stopped being meaningful.

On the other hand, I realize that I am fortunate. My job pays well; much less than I used to make, but it is easily enough to be comfortable. If I was fighting to pay the rent and put food on my table then my career/education choices might be viewed differently.

I have also been very lucky. My parents supported and encouraged achievement, but insisted that the path be of my choosing (my dad was a small state college dean and placement director - he absolutely refused to give me any career advice - it was frustrating at the time but very wise in retrospect). And I payed a good portion of my own way with work study, student loans and scholarships. Money was always tight growing up, and I was aware if its necessity to the point that its accumulation became not a means to an end but the end itself. It also ruined my life before I forced myself to jump off that track.

Today I tilt at windmills, trying to save ourselves from our own shortsightedness - global warming, etc. Some might say that my choice is as pragmatic and worthwhile as an anthropology degree. I say its heaven on earth.

[catulle]

Look, let's be candid here, if work were a good thing you wouldn't be paid to do it. I'm more in line with the pursuit of happiness. Of course, if I hadn't busted my buns and brains enough to reach the point where I can dedicate myself now to pursue happiness with a significant degree of success, well, I couldn't be doing what I'm now doing. If you have a hard time deciphering the last sentence, please don't try to read Kant. :hello:

[manet]

i kant it hurts.
especially when i ride a 53.

[Sandy]

let's give her a forum name

HoneyBeeGeneva

Bet she will pick that over BumbleBeeGeneva!





Sandy

[Kevan]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/australia.stone.tool.ap/index.html

[davids]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/australia.stone.tool.ap/index.htmlI thought this was way cool:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/science/04fossil.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin

[deanster]

BBD,

Your support will make her a better student. Do a lttle research with her, and I'm sure you all will see that there are a lot of different areas to pursue in anthropology, any of which will lead to prosperity. If she has a good head on her thorax and a strong work ethic, she will succeed whether she majors in anthropology or biochemistry.

Good luck, and be happy that she is in college and excited about studying something.

-aLexis

This is something that all parents should read...never a truer statement made in such brevity. I have 2 kids graduating from CU Boulder this May (in 4 years!!!!!). I bit my tongue along the way and stiffled my type A personality giving them my support. They both enjoyed their experience at college because it was THEIR choice. College is meant to teach one how to learn new ideas, build their self confidence, and this will translate forward into their employment. Just sticking to a course of study and getting a degree shows a level of maturity. Their ability to work hard will show up in their personal work ethic and that is a career builder by itself.

[Tonger]

BBD,

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/07/arts/07grad.html?pagewanted=1&em

Given the year that has elapsed and the likely permanently worsened state of the economy, does everyone still feel the same way? We are now facing cutbacks at work (healthcare) where I wouldn't have even imagined the possibility a year ago. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to mix in a "practical" minor field of study just to give your daughter more options later?

Tonger

[paulrad9]

Don't have kids, so no advice there, but I can tell you how my firm hires. What you studied in under-grad has no value, but what is important is how you did. As a result, we prefer to hire a bright, hard-working self starter with no formal background over a mediocre student with a major in our industry.

The rules may apply differently for someone who wants to be a chemist or physicist, but such strict rules don't apply to many other industries.

[BumbleBeeDave]

She's also decided to double major in Anthro and Geosciences. She's taking Arabic this semester, going to Archeology field school in Colorado this summer, and has pretty much decided to do foreign study in Morocco in spring 2010, which should work well with two semesters of Arabic under her belt and the five years of French she had in junior and high school. If that all doesn't end up mattering, she is rowing varsity crew already and is enthusiastic about college and her team experience. She also has a 3.9 GPA and a very proud daddy.

BBD

[caleb]

Dave,

How did the whole thing turn out?

Tonger asked if those of us who participated in this thread a year ago still feel the same way.

A year ago I said something to the effect that if a student goes to a top-50 liberal arts school or an Ivy and excels it doesn't matter what they major in so long as they're willing to go to grad school. If they go to a mediocre school and behave as a mediocre student, obtaining marketable technical skills is much more important.

It was true last year and I think it'll still be true in twenty years. Bright people trained to think will eventually find good employment regardless of their college focus.

[jblande]

As a PhD student in a field with very little financial promise, I have to say I find this discussion really fascinating. In terms of making money, academic positions have very little to offer. I do know a number of people who majored in seemingly obscure subjects in the humanities but then went on to law school and are making quite a living at this point. One thing about undergraduate education, as near as I can tell, is that it does not, with only the rarest exceptions, prepare one for a particular profession. So majoring in anthropology is probably not that different than majoring in economics. When the economy was not so bad, a number of people I know who majored in music, anthro, poly sci, comp lit, etc etc went on to law school, work on Wall St, you have it! One thing to note is that outside of research cultural anthropology has less promise than physical anthropology. As those two fields are very different, much would depend on which your daughter chooses.

My parents still wonder why I chose to become a literature student and dedicate my life to what is for them nothing more than an antiquated recreational activity. To my mind, that is because they are both professionals who never learned to become curious about the topics and questions that preoccupy my studies. Even if I leave academia to pursue a life in a less cut-throat, more financially sustainable profession, I do not think I will ever cease to appreciate the forms of inquiry I learned at the university. Just my 2 cents.

[1centaur]

"Even if I leave academia to pursue a life in a less cut-throat.. profession"

That jumped out at me. I can guess, but what do you mean by cut-throat?

[jblande]

I would say that majority of people I know who come out of the finest academic universities (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Standford, etc) spend at least two years on the job market. Many of them then have absolutely no say in what part of the country they end up in. Graduate school is largely unpleasant because it is 6 or 7 years of competition for favor.

I do not mean to claim that academia is somehow worse than other professions in this respect. It often seems to me that academia is very similar to other professions. I'm just not sure that I want to spend the next 2 years on the job market, 6 years worried about tenure, etc etc. I'm just not sure it is the best profession to me. Just voicing self-doubt; not trying to elevate academia above other professions.

[Bradford]

Jblande,

When I was in graduate school (American Literature), I went through the same crises of faith. I went in as an idealist, but the same things you bring up, and a few more, turned me into a cynic.

Instead of pursuing some higher calling, I found my self selling out, and saw my future full of more of the same. In the end, I decided I was willing to sell out, just not for that kind of money and that little control of where I lived. I filed for my masters, left school, and became a managment consultant.

Most of the time I wish I had become a forest ranger, but I don't regret leaving grad school.

By the way, to put this back on topic, being an English major, along with an MBA further down the road, prepared me for a career in consulting much more than my peers who studied business as undergraduates.

[Tonger]

She's also decided to double major in Anthro and Geosciences. She's taking Arabic this semester, going to Archeology field school in Colorado this summer, and has pretty much decided to do foreign study in Morocco in spring 2010, which should work well with two semesters of Arabic under her belt and the five years of French she had in junior and high school. If that all doesn't end up mattering, she is rowing varsity crew already and is enthusiastic about college and her team experience. She also has a 3.9 GPA and a very proud daddy.

BBD


BBD,

Sounds like your kid has it all figured out and her Pops is indeed quite proud. Wonderful!

Tonger

[kgreene10]

Dave, congrats on what sounds like a great outcome. I can hear your pride coming through the forum's transmission lines.

And a word on the side to jblande -- I think it all boils down to your level of passion. If doing literary analysis is what you can best imagine yourself doing as a vocation (not just a job) and doing it keeps you thoroughly engaged, then you pretty much have to keep at it. It's definitely a tough field, but if your PhD is from a decently ranked department, you will be able to get a job somewhere. You can always decide to walk away if the options are unbearable. I know that's not an appetizing thought, but it's one of the risks you have to assume when following your passion.

I don't mean to sound flip about it -- there are real risks. When my undergrads tell me they want to do a PhD I basically suggest doing it only if they feel so compelled that they can't really avoid it. If you still feel that way after a couple of years in, then I say keep on it.

[Kirk007]

BBD -
Congrats, and you are probably both rightfully proud and I bet a bit relieved!

JBlande - No easy answers here, but having "sold out" for about 15 years before getting back to following my passion, I can say that there were benefits to that 15 year period, but I would (will) only go back as a very last resort. Happiness on a daily basis, in the job/vocation where you spend the majority of your hours is, in my estimation, very important (but so is having "enough" financial compensation). What's "enough" can be difficult to figure out.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and have difficulty hiding it.

My girlfriend helped me see that the problem, for me at least, was learning to relate to Gen as another adult rather than as a child. That's taken some getting used to for me. I think there's also been some learning on her end of the equation to relate to me as another adult, not just her father. I imagine it's a problem many other parents and kids leaving home have also faced.

But I think it will be OK. I talked to her mother last week and she told me that when Gen told her she wanted to go to Morocco, Mom asked her why., Her reply was that she was getting tired of being at college where so many of her fellow students seemed to take everything for granted and she wanted to go learn somewhere that definitely wouldn't be true.

Yes, I'm very proud of her.

BBD

[caleb]

BBD,

Sounds like you're both learn lots. Congrats, and good luck going forward.

[Oirad]

I suspect that BBD's daughter has some intellectual passion besides a willingness to work hard (a 3.9 is a 3.9!) and that will take her a long way, no matter what she does.

Oirad

[fiamme red]

Some of the comments on this blog are very interesting:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/student-debt-fools-gold/

Many people have no idea what kind of a financial hole they're getting into when they pursue a higher education.

[kgreene10]

I'm nearly certain that if you compare the average salary of people with and without a four-year university degree (BA or BS), you will find that a college education pays much more over the average lifespan, even after loans are repaid. And that's just the pure economic logic without even trying to assess the value of knowledge for its own sake.