OT- Third grade students intended to harm their teacher

[Sandy]

As many as 9 eight to nine year old third grade students meant to harm their teacher in Waycross, Ga. The students brought to school handcuffs, a knife, duct tape, ribbon, electrical and transparent tape, and a heavy crystal paper weight. Supposedly the students were angry at the teacher for scolding one of them for standing on a chair. The students were assigned tasks, including covering up the windows and cleaning up afterwards. Another sudent reported seeing a weapon brought to school.

The special ed teacher was a veteran teacher who taught third grade students with learning disabilities, including attention deficit disorder, delayed development and hyperactivity.

My first reaction to the news was that it was really amazing that the above could occur in the third grade. But as I thought about the rapid progression of violence in our schools and in society, I realized that it should not be so amazing to me. It makes you wonder how 8 to 9 year kids not only think of doing the above but actually plan to do such. You wonder how society has produced kids with that motivation. Very sad and thought provoking.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I mentioned the incident above as I thought it meaningful relative to kids and society today. I realize that it is not cycling specific. If you make any comments, please use your good judgement in what you say. Thanks!


Sandy

[William]

TV as a babysitter.....Nanny of the new millennium. :crap:






William


PS: Perhaps we should legislate laws against 8 & 9yr olds and muzzle every single one of them. :rolleyes: ;)

[Larry]

What kind of parenting is going on in America?
Dallas school district. Only 45 per cent graduate from high school.
Who is watching and monitoring their kids behavior??
Third graders see it all on the Internet.

Not very encouraging for future generations.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . what I thought was really sad was the principal insisting "we have good kids" here . . . I think they need a new principal.

BBD

[Dave B]

. . . what I thought was really sad was the principal insisting "we have good kids" here . . . I think they need a new principal.

BBD


Columbine's Pirncipal said after everything, "But our test scores were some of the best int he state."

Schools are being driven by data not education. atmo.

[majorpat]

Lack of mandatory gym classmo:

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/children/articles/2007/05/30/lack_of_physical_education_weighs_heavily_on_many/

[false_Aest]

1) I don't think that 3rd graders (or maybe even some 17 year olds) really understand the seriousness of their actions and their permanence (think of how many kids fail to understand mortality or the effect drugs might have on them down the road).

2) I think a lot of this behavior is modeled by "adults." i.e. TV and poor parenting (who's to judge what that is?) surely contribute but so do strangers demonstrating uncivil behavior toward each other (anyone ever taken Chicago, Boston, NYC, Pittsburgh, etc. public transit?)

3) I'm also not sure that education has too much to do with how kids develop and how they interact. That said, it seems strange that schools expect kids (who are variable and finicky at best) to react well to a near standardized form of organization.

I guess what I'm getting at is that we can blame specific things for behavior like this but in the end I think that to prevent incidents like this requires "adults" to consider what communities the find themselves in and how they interact with each other. More importantly, I think that after doing this we need to modify our behavior/actions.

I have a feeling that this modification will end up trickling down to the next gen. and end up affecting things like education, boob-tube, public policy, etc.

(If that made sense, great! If it didn't...... I ran out of coffee this morning.)

Or we could just go riding with kids......

[rwsaunders]

We attended high school orientation for my daughter and it surprised us that a foreign language is not required in PA, as a core subject for graduation. It is however, suggested if you are considering attending college. She enrolled in Spanish.

The dumbing of America, coupled with too much fast food, excessive TV and limited recreational activities TV. McDonald's and Nintendo are winning the battle.

[Tobias]

Lack of consequences?
People (and kids) do what works for them and avoid what doesn’t.
If they keep getting away with what they want why stop?

[M.Sommers]

We attended high school orientation for my daughter and it surprised us that a foreign language is not required in PA, as a core subject for graduation. It is however, suggested if you are considering attending college. She enrolled in Spanish.

The dumbing of America, coupled with too much fast food, excessive TV and limited recreational activities TV. McDonald's and Nintendo are winning the battle.

+3.14

[Ahneida Ride]

Where is God in the Picture?

Obviously these kids have no fear of Devine retribution or the
concept of sin.

[M.Sommers]

Where is God in the Picture?

Obviously these kids have no fear of Devine retribution or the
concept of sin.

Guilt and conscience have been replaced with Redbull and Nintendo (expect some flames for your post fyi).

We had a 15 and a 16 year old, two local boys, arrested last week for possession of ecstasy, hash, marijuana, cocaine, valium. Two kids from good, solid families, a very nice town.

Oh and in some states if you spank your kid, you might be arrested. :rolleyes:

[davids]

...lots of generalizations from a specific incident.

These kids clearly have behavioral and/or cognitive problems. Beyond that, we really don't know much about their background or situation.

[M.Sommers]

...lots of generalizations from a specific incident.

These kids clearly have behavioral and/or cognitive problems. Beyond that, we really don't know much about their background or situation.

"As many as 9 eight to nine year old third grade students meant to harm their teacher in Waycross, Ga. The students brought to school handcuffs, a knife, duct tape, ribbon, electrical and transparent tape, and a heavy crystal paper weight..."

What else do you need to know? :confused: This isn't rocket science. Or even science. It's common sense that 8 and 9 year olds plotted to eff up their teacher = wrong, sick and sad state of affairs. Let the psychologists babble about nature, nurture and then prescribe lotsa drugs and therapy. Personally I don't care about the kids' background or situation, whether they are tall, short, black, white, rich or poor; those kids are sick and twisted.

The facts:

"Police Chief Tony Tanner said the students apparently planned to knock the teacher unconscious with a glass paperweight, bind her with handcuffs and duct tape and then stab her with a broken steak knife.

The scheme involved a division of roles, Tanner said. One child's job was to cover windows so no one could see outside, and another was supposed to clean up after the attack."

[swoop]

its a special needs school... and the teacher had it coming for not letting us finish scarface.

[jerk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2xozcu_Ejw

jerk

[johnnymossville]

blah, I was going to rant, but I better not.

[rePhil]

I work in a special needs school. Most people have no idea of the kinds of things that go on daily. In some cases the parents actually care, but it seems like most around here do not.

[swoop]

i'm just disappointed that they went the steak knife route when they know waterboarding works so well. don't these kids watch enough tv to know that?

the school is canceling the musical production of reservoir dogs as a result.

[davids]

i'm just disappointed that they went the steak knife route when they know waterboarding works so well. don't these kids watch enough tv to know that?

the school is canceling the musical production of reservoir dogs as a result.I want to know more about the kingpin. Someone clearly thought out this operation - Covering the windows with paper? Cleaning up afterwards? There's an awful lot of misdirected energy here. Maybe someone can get the kid interested in anthropology.

[swoop]

.

[M.Sommers]

Send the kids to Cardassian and let em' enjoy the 'How many lights do you see' therapy. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR_fkXB86kg

[Dave B]

.

Man if that is a pic of there stuff, that is jacked up it in on the interweb.

If that is your stuff you had laying around, no wonder kids are messed up with therapy session using this kind of treatment! :D

[swoop]

its the actual stuff.

there's an iceberg. we get to see the tip (the kids via the news story), which is the most easily observed and the smallest part. there's more going on here than meets the eye. and maybe less too.

kids are violent. delayed kids don't really self soothe. they act out. no one got hurt. there's more going on here than the easy peasy moralizing we get to do from the comfort of our little computers.

its clearly disturbing and makes for a good news story.
i got five bucks that its about something more complex than oceans eleven for retarded kids. its about a bunch of stuff.
we'll see.

as for the hostility towards therapists... i don't see any mentioned in the story. so i blame the fitter or the parents.

[Dave B]

I was kidding...

[goonster]

I want to know more about the kingpin. Someone clearly thought out this operation

+1

One of these kids is a leadership genius.

Obviously these kids have no fear of Devine retribution or the concept of sin.

Right. :rolleyes:

Because if there is one thing these third graders need, it's more fear of the hellfire. Then the only children who plot against their teacher will be Buddhists.

"Do you want a happy God, or a vengeful God?"

"Happy God! Happy God!"

http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/images/RodToddFlanders.gif

[swoop]

all i know for fact is that some family has horrible cutlery and what's a nutty kid doing with mommy's handcuffs?

[shinomaster]

That wouldn't have happened in ancient Sparta.

[Dave B]

That wouldn't have happened in ancient Sparta.


That one the award for best movie ever made!

[Ozz]

That one the award for best movie ever made!
which one won? ;)

[Lifelover]

Amazing story. I hope the press and cops are making more out of it than there really is.

I can see kids planning it out even to this extent but still being unable to go all the way. I'm just glad they didn't get to test their own limits.

Make me very, very sad for these kids. They most likely have many unhappy years ahead of them.

[Sandy]

Amazing story. I hope the press and cops are making more out of it than there really is.

I can see kids planning it out even to this extent but still being unable to go all the way. I'm just glad they didn't get to test their own limits.

Make me very, very sad for these kids. They most likely have many unhappy years ahead of them.

It is interesting that some here make it trivial and find it a place for humor. Clearly we don't know the totality of what occurred. These were special education students with unique (to them) problems and needs. To think that 8 and 9 year old students have reached a point in their very young lives to consider and very possibly act in a violent manner to a teacher is very sad and tragic indeed for these kids. It also makes me wonder what are the factors and dynamics in our society and in their environment which produce kids that would consider that.


Sandy

[swoop]

It is interesting that some here make it trivial and find it a place for humor. Clearly we don't know the totality of what occurred. These were special education students with unique (to them) problems and needs. To think that 8 and 9 year old students have reached a point in their very young lives to consider and very possibly act in a violent manner to a teacher is very sad and tragic indeed for these kids. It also makes me wonder what are the factors and dynamics in our society and in their environment which produce kids that would consider that.


Sandy


sandy, the world is a chaotic place. always has been. back in the seventies i stopped a neighbor kid while he was dousing another neighbor kid with gasoline.. he had matches, was going to light him up.
he was developmentally disabled.... bucky. his name was bucky. the other kid was french. a total little snot.

this is just a news story and not an indictment of current culture. these are special needs kids. lord knows if the parenting is good or not.
the plan not working is just as likely part of the plan. abstracting this and generalizing it as some commentary on culture is an agenda we as readers bring to it.

it just takes a disturbed kid, other kids that are easily influenced, a teacher that sets boundaries and humiliates, a lack of capacity to self sooth, parents that don't set boundaries and are out of touch through there own haze, maybe a kid that's oppositional defiant or more disturbed and viola...
i mean who knows. they'll figure it out.

its the abstracting to some whole that doesn't work. this crap has been going on since the beginning of time. its the 24 hour news cycles that different. they want to sell you that its the end of time.... nothing's changed.

all i come away with is thinking there's some parents not doing their due diligence with some problematic kids. but i don't know. only the people directly involved wil know.

culture is no more or less violent that it ever was.. but the reportage is getting really good.
heck, in 78 i was busted for a gun in high school. it was a starters pistol. the kid next to me in english had it. i wasn't involved they just messed up the names. maybe he was gonna rolla teacher, who knows.
it didn't make the news.
those kids that used to bust knives out and rob kids at lunch at my school sure didn't make the news and they ruined a year of high school for a lot of us back in 79.

its disturbing. these are disturbed kids. disturbed kids can do disturbing things. they take a lot of diligence form the parents and school.

let's not read an agenda of cultural failings into it. its just agenda. fear sells (for news).
its a good story... lots of reporting to come. are your schools safe (?), etc...

[goonster]

maybe a kid that's oppositional defiant of more disturbed and viola...

Could be a lot worse. Coulda been cello! :banana:


this crap has been going on since the beginning of time. its the 24 hour news cycles that different.

+1.

Sandy, the sky is not falling.

If every parent whose blood pressure goes up over this story, and wrings their hands because society is going to the dogs, took an afternoon off instead and took their kids to the park, that would be a good thing, atmo.

[roman meal]

I applaud the cooperative element that the kids displayed, and the lack of duplicity. This thing seemed like it was well planned. It's hard to get the kids to work that well together, especially if they have receptive and expresive communication deficits. Hats off to the teacher. The curriculum unit on kidnapping and murder was probably a poor choice, in hindsight.

[swoop]

special forces, adhd division. the dirty dozen.
hey, cartman, you forgot to bring the ammo.

emotionally disturbed kids tend to think and feel disturbing things. that's what's so damn disturbing about em. takes a lot of community to see them through. maybe the village aint what it used to be.

[cpg]

i

kids are violent. delayed kids don't really self soothe. they act out. no one got hurt. there's more going on here than the easy peasy moralizing we get to do from the comfort of our little computers.



Are you saying ALL kids are violent or delayed kids are? I know you know a lot about this stuff but I don't buy the notion all kids are violent. Sure plenty are but I don't think most kids are violent.

Curt

[roman meal]

Are you saying ALL kids are violent or delayed kids are? I know you know a lot about this stuff but I don't buy the notion all kids are violent. Sure plenty are but I don't think most kids are violent.

Curt

Can we call the kids students with behavior disorders? Either that, or just call them mongoloids.

I think swoop was referring to this specific population, or classroom.

I loved teaching students with emotional and behavioral disorders.

You need to have a cutting sense of humor to do that work for an extended time. Not for use on the students, but when you talk about it later.

I had a student that would do his homework, burn it, bring it in and place it in a little can for me on my desk. "I did my homework, you big headed mother farker"

[swoop]

Are you saying ALL kids are violent or delayed kids are? I know you know a lot about this stuff but I don't buy the notion all kids are violent. Sure plenty are but I don't think most kids are violent.

Curt
i think i read a wider range of meaning into the word violent than what someone that isn't a shrink reads into it. is violence the thought or the act? can a social interaction be violent even if there are no injuries? can play sublimate violent feelings? can feelings be violent?
(yes)



i'm saying that all people have violent thoughts. that all moms want at some point to kill their babies and that all babies want to kill their mommies.
its how one mitigates and soothes these feelings that determines a lot of this stuff.
i'm saying kids with emotional issues or developmental delays tend to,
across the board, have problems in self soothing and expressing needs and this makes them have some difficulties.
i'm not saying all kids a murderous. i'm saying its all human....

i'm disturbed by the news. but i know i'm only seeing a part of the picture.. the part that is the most sensational.

but i am not saying that all kids with problems are violent offenders.
i'm saying violence (as a sensation) is in itself a normal. some just sublimate it and mitigate it better.
go watch some kids play. we would throw dirt clods at each other and shoot bb guns... even make snowballs icey hard. watch the show jackarse. every good teen boy should have a jakcarse phase.

its not easy being a kid with developmental delays. that doesn't mean its weapons day at school. it means it takes enormous resources to see them through.... both literal, emotional, and educationally... and disturbed kids are capable of disturbing things.

this whole mess is disturbing.

in all the years i've been treating teens.... including ones with muderous thoughts... i've never had a bad kid. i've seen every kid through to a good place and they've always been the symptom (we call it identified problem) of a disturbed family system.

now these kids that are developmentally delayed, that's a huge blanket to throw over a bunch of kids, most of which are likely amazing people and possible, one or two that might have deeper psychological issues and serious pathology.

they'll get to it. i just don't think it needs to be in the news except its a sexy easy to get upset about story.

[bcm119]

This kind of stuff has been going forever. Only thing different is that now the whole nation reads about these non-events.
When I was a kid, lets see, I shot out my neighbors sliding glass door, shot out his rear windshield (while he was backing into his driveway), almost burned down our apple tree with a flaming cross-bow arrow, ignited my grandmother's bathing suit with a homemade rocket, left a death threat for a kid in 4th grade in his cubby, accidentally broke my teacher's windshield with a crab apple, built wire-detonated blackpowder bombs, rolled a giant snowball down a hill and obliterated my neighbor's shed, damaged countless signs, phonebooths and streetlights with bb guns and m-80's... the list goes on. And I was a normal, smart kid. I can't imagine what the dumb ones did, much less the developmentally disabled. The question is, why is this news...

[cmg]

blame the under funded program that puts different age groups together so that the older kids can influence/force younger ones to do their bidding. Blame the under paid/unappreciated teacher that has to teach special needs to multiple age groups. The report doesn't state if she was teaching more than the state mandated number of students, but i bet she was. blame security for letting this dangerous material on to the campus. blame tv, blame electronic games, blame george bush.

[swoop]

blame canada.

[Sandy]

I taught junior high school math for one year and senior high school math for about 9 years many moons ago. I was extremely active with my high school students, being the advisor to the senior class, math team, chess club (boy did I suck- got smashed by everyone), and an academic team. I saw the kids not only in the classroom. My kids were always totally respectful to me and I never had any discipline problems with any students. Kids drank some, primarily on weekends, but drug useage was minimal at best and was not a factor in the classroom. Overt disrepect to teachers was a non-issue. Student on student violence was not common and violence against teachers was totally absent.

Fast forward to today- Drug useage is prevalent, discipline in the classroom is a major problem, basic respect to teachers and students is often gone, and violence to both students and teachers is almost common place.

Undoubtedly, the quick communication of today places "news" in front of us at a rate never seen before. Cerrtainly there were problems before, but the world of educating kids is decidedly different than before. I think that it is much more difficult, especially in inner city schools which I attended (DC).

I find it sad and tragic that 8 and 9 year old kids appear to have the capacity to potentially act on violent thoughts. I find no humor associated with the story and its ramifications, understanding fully that we have only a superficial understanding of what occurred and no real understanding of the dynamics involved.

I guess that I must simply try to understand you better. You are an enigma to me. Sometimes you make some very lucid comments with superior subject matter and analysis. Some with astute and insightful understanding of people. But other times you seem to be so devoid of empathy and sensitivity to people, which is surprising to me as you are a psychologist. I guess that you don't take what some say or what you say too seriously sometimes on the internet and sometimes you do. I will try to understand that better.


Sandy

[rePhil]

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080402/NEWS/804020368/1003/news0102

One of my former students.

[taylorj]

blame the under funded program that puts different age groups together so that the older kids can influence/force younger ones to do their bidding. Blame the under paid/unappreciated teacher that has to teach special needs to multiple age groups. The report doesn't state if she was teaching more than the state mandated number of students, but i bet she was. blame security for letting this dangerous material on to the campus. blame tv, blame electronic games, blame george bush.

...or rather than blame a bunch of people...own some of the responsibility. I have no children of my own. But there is still a plethora of other people's kids who could use help. It is a challenge, but even the small things like volunteering for a Big Sister or fostering a baby (infant) who's parents need to get their lives in order make pin-point differences on where the country is at. Get a bunch of bikes donated to a local elementry school and take those fat youngster's for a bike ride. It is amazing how good "you" will feel. This is a scary scary tale about where our country is in trouble. And while I am not a zealot on religion (poor word choice), it does feel like there is less G_d involved.

[Lifelover]

....
i'm saying that all people have violent thoughts. that all moms want at some point to kill their babies and that all babies want to kill their mommies.
.......


I hope you don't let generalities like this guide your practice!

I don't think very many mother's have ever actually wanted their children to die never-less at their own hands.

[Dave B]

Do you think it is the cycle of things that is causing this trend.

Swoop mentions the same things used to happen years ago, but today with the 24 news cycle we are exposed to a greater occurance hence we identify a trend?

So it is the chicken or the egg.

Do kids commit a great frequency of violence or it is simply reported at a higher rate.

If kids are seeing it reported they want the attention the media provides so it is happening at a higher frequency.

Not being a licensed, educated, or practicing psychologist, kids need to belong and if society (our media) only publicises the negative then actions are being conditioned towards a reward for negative behavior.

You don't hear of positive things on the news because people do not want to see other succeed on a global scale. Sure we root for the underdog, but only when it is almost cliche' to.

Violence has happened for years, but now we have so many competeing media vices that one story can take on its own life.

What is interesting to me is we are all looking for the reason it happened. Ok, it happened now what. who has the answer on how to help third graders deal with their actions. Expel them from school, ok where do they go? Put them in lock up...ok what else do they learn?

I sure don't have answers, but third graders. Yes it is a very scary situation, but how does one judge them with adult lenses? How do you look at the actions of a 9 year old with adult eyes and try to understand or rationalize it?

[roman meal]

I taught junior high school math for one year and senior high school math for about 9 years many moons ago. I was extremely active with my high school students, being the advisor to the senior class, math team, chess club (boy did I suck- got smashed by everyone), and an academic team. I saw the kids not only in the classroom. My kids were always totally respectful to me and I never had any discipline problems with any students. Kids drank some, primarily on weekends, but drug useage was minimal at best and was not a factor in the classroom. Overt disrepect to teachers was a non-issue. Student on student violence was not common and violence against teachers was totally absent.

Fast forward to today- Drug useage is prevalent, discipline in the classroom is a major problem, basic respect to teachers and students is often gone, and violence to both students and teachers is almost common place.

Undoubtedly, the quick communication of today places "news" in front of us at a rate never seen before. Cerrtainly there were problems before, but the world of educating kids is decidedly different than before. I think that it is much more difficult, especially in inner city schools which I attended (DC).

I find it sad and tragic that 8 and 9 year old kids appear to have the capacity to potentially act on violent thoughts. I find no humor associated wit the story and its ramifications, understanding fully that we have only a superficial understanding of what occurred and no real understanding of the dynamics involved.

I guess that I must simply try to understand you better. You are an enigma to me. Sometimes you make some very lucid comments with superior subject matter and analysis. Some with astute and insightful understanding of people. But other times you seem to be so devoid of empathy and sensitivity to people, which is surprising to me as you are a psychologist. I guesss that you don't take what some say or what you say too seriously sometimes on the internet and sometimes you do. I will try to understand that better.


Sandy


Sandy- kids like the ones described were around when you were teaching, they just weren't in your class, or hanging around with the math club. They certainly weren't on the news. news is 24/7 now, and they gotta troll something to fill up the time and boost ratings, partially by looking for these students and exploiting them for a good teaser before the weather. They have existed in equal parts then, now, and will into the future. they need support and care. they'll get it,. maybe not as much as they need, but people will work with them.

[swoop]

I hope you don't let generalities like this guide your practice!

I don't think very many mother's have ever actually wanted their children to die never-less at their own hands.


well, maybe you should come sit next to me at work.

do you have a doctorate in clinical psych too? that's cool. (i'm being a smrtarse)

so you know that those guys the kill people and chop them up and eat them.. well they aren't doing it becuase they like the taste.

you know that's how a baby experience mom, right? and that those folks are stuck in internalizing love the only way they know how... as mom in pieces as (erotic) food.

the psychology of the human infant is a freaking amazing place.
don't hate the player (me), hate the game. its dark and rich stuff... and really disturbing.

read some of melanie kleins work with disturbed children.. that will freak you for shizzle.

[cpg]

i think i read a wider range of meaning into the word violent than what someone that isn't a shrink reads into it. is violence the thought or the act? can a social interaction be violent even if there are no injuries? can play sublimate violent feelings? can feelings be violent?
(yes)



i'm saying that all people have violent thoughts. that all moms want at some point to kill their babies and that all babies want to kill their mommies.
its how one mitigates and soothes these feelings that determines a lot of this stuff.
i'm saying kids with emotional issues or developmental delays tend to,
across the board, have problems in self soothing and expressing needs and this makes them have some difficulties.
i'm not saying all kids a murderous. i'm saying its all human....

i'm disturbed by the news. but i know i'm only seeing a part of the picture.. the part that is the most sensational.

but i am not saying that all kids with problems are violent offenders.
i'm saying violence (as a sensation) is in itself a normal. some just sublimate it and mitigate it better.
go watch some kids play. we would throw dirt clods at each other and shoot bb guns... even make snowballs icey hard. watch the show jackarse. every good teen boy should have a jakcarse phase.

its not easy being a kid with developmental delays. that doesn't mean its weapons day at school. it means it takes enormous resources to see them through.... both literal, emotional, and educationally... and disturbed kids are capable of disturbing things.

this whole mess is disturbing.

in all the years i've been treating teens.... including ones with muderous thoughts... i've never had a bad kid. i've seen every kid through to a good place and they've always been the symptom (we call it identified problem) of a disturbed family system.

now these kids that are developmentally delayed, that's a huge blanket to throw over a bunch of kids, most of which are likely amazing people and possible, one or two that might have deeper psychological issues and serious pathology.

they'll get to it. i just don't think it needs to be in the news except its a sexy easy to get upset about story.

Thanks for the response. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Curt

[Tobias]

i'm saying that all people have violent thoughts. that all moms want at some point to kill their babies and that all babies want to kill their mommies.We all have violent thoughts.
We all don't want to kill our babies or our mothers.
Sorry man, but that's pure BS.

[Tobias]

I find it sad and tragic that 8 and 9 year old kids appear to have the capacity to potentially act on violent thoughts.I don't -- I see it as part of being a human being. We need the capacity to act out violently at times to stay alive. I'm still young enough to remember being that age and at times wanting to do physical harm to bullies and others like them.

Sandy, don't you some times feel like reaching through the monitor and grabbing an AH by the throat?

[swoop]

We all have violent thoughts.
We all don't want to kill our babies or our mothers.
Sorry man, but that's pure BS.


you've never heard a kid say 'i hate mommy, i want her to die'? it time to hang out with some five year-olds that are having a bad day.... cuz they say it all the time.

tobias its not bs. you might not like it or comprehend it... but its all in there.

hey, what's this oedipus about?
no one wants to kill dad. that's not an archetype?
who is electra and why is she gunning for mom?

if you don't get it it must not be true?

and for what jtaylor is saying... she's so right. action.. we can all take an action. big sisters/brothers is a great place to start. if you're that affected by the news, there is so much doing to be done.

the bottom line for all of this is community.

if there is anything that's changed over time its that the meaning of community has shifted. and the ability of individuals in the margins to flourish when the notion of community in itself has fundamentally shifted... i think what happens is that school become a surrogate for community and they fail to meet the burden because no school has the resources to provide community where there is none.
i guess my point is that everything is connected and the view you take is about the viewer's lens.

[Dave B]

I am not speakign for swoop as I am not a clinical anything.

Animals by nature destroy their young adn vice versa.


Humans are also an animal and our instinct is still to destroy, but an evolutionary learned behavior...the soothing of these instincts is what sets us apart from other animals.

A parent does not conceptualize, "gee I want to kill my child, but it is wrong"

It is more of the way a parent gets so worked up and frustrated that..."I could have just killed him for drawing on my car with rocks!" we hear it all of the time.

Humans have an ability unlike most other animals. Again I am not speaking for swoop, but what I understood is that humans all have these insticnts and feelings, but our ability to sooth this type of thing comes from what we learn or how we learn to take the feeling and understand what it is and means.

Go back to the 10, 000 hours of practice. Not we just call these instincts as "getting pissed off"

In this case you might have had children with developmental disabilities that cannot make this type of soothing ability work for them. also Swoop nor any of us have had the opportunity to psycho analyze these kids so this is all conjecture.

Again I am not speaking for Swoop as I am not close to as experienced or educated in thsi practice.

This is what I understand through my psych classes and weird obsession with behavior and the mind.

You can think I am full of BS as well, but ATMO you wouldn't be the first! :beer:

[davids]

...

Fast forward to today- Drug useage is prevalent, discipline in the classroom is a major problem, basic respect to teachers and students is often gone, and violence to both students and teachers is almost common place.

Undoubtedly, the quick communication of today places "news" in front of us at a rate never seen before. Cerrtainly there were problems before, but the world of educating kids is decidedly different than before. I think that it is much more difficult, especially in inner city schools which I attended (DC).

...A prominent social commentator made the following observation:

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority. They show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
I don't think anyone is disputing that this was a disturbing incident. But I am very skeptical that this specific case says anything about our wider society. I am only slightly less skeptical about the claim that today's youth are worse behaved than youth of earlier generations (see the quote above.)

A number of folks here have very quickly generalized from this specific incident, about which we know very little relevant information, to make sweeping statements about the state of youth and our society.

We're only aware of this event because the media seized on the story. The media sensationalizes this stuff. Many folks then make the error of leaping from a specific event to sweeping generalizations. That's a regrettable mistake, atmo.

[Lifelover]

well, maybe you should come sit next to me at work.
...

I would LOVE too. With you are any other psych person I'm sure I would be amazed at what I heard coming form both sides of the room.


do you have a doctorate in clinical psych too? that's cool.

..

No I don't but if I were choosing a psych, his educationally pedigree would not be very high on my priority list. I hope you bring more to the couch than a PHD.


..
so you know that those guys the kill people and chop them up and eat them.. well they aren't doing it becuase they like the taste.

you know that's how a baby experience mom, right? and that those folks are stuck in internalizing love the only way they know how... as mom in pieces as (erotic) food.

the psychology of the human infant is a freaking amazing place.
don't hate the player (me), hate the game.

I was not debating that strange or horrible things happen frequently, I just don't think "it" lives within most of us.

I suspect that like a cop, your profession has jaded your view.

[Tobias]

tobias its not bs. you might not like it or comprehend it... but its all in there. ..........snip..........

if you don't get it it must not be true?

This explains much about your attitude towards most people and how you communicate with them. I should have picked up on it sooner.

First you think you are smarter than everyone else. Secondly you think that if they don’t agree with your subjective facts or views that “they don’t get it” and therefore must be morons.

I don’t doubt that there may be a few who feel and act as you stated. But I won’t buy into the idea that “ALL” babies, mothers, etc… act or think as you proclaim.

I’m guessing that in your line of work you see a lot more from the bottom of the barrel and fewer well adjusted nice people/kids. We are not all as screwed up as you think.

I'm out of here -- this is pointless.

[swoop]

This explains much about your attitude towards most people and how you communicate with them. I should have picked up on it sooner.

First you think you are smarter than everyone else. Secondly you think that if they don’t agree with your subjective facts or views that “they don’t get it” and therefore must be morons.

I don’t doubt that there may be a few who feel and act as you stated. But I won’t buy into the idea that “ALL” babies, mothers, etc… act or think as you proclaim.

I’m guessing that in your line of work you see a lot more from the bottom of the barrel and fewer well adjusted nice people/kids. We are not all as screwed up as you think.

I'm out of here -- this is pointless.

seems i touched a nerve? its tough to read tone on the web. so imagine through the words and perhaps even translation... that this is all very light.
its coffee talk.... meaningless, fairly trivial, direct, and without force.

i don't think any of it is screwed up. in fact, that's my point. everyone wants to constrict around it... when its all human.

tobias, an infant doesn't see mother as whole and separate person right off the bat.. but rather as an extension of their own needs that can either gratify or deny those needs. as the infant develops the mother becomes other and then the repository for affective states the infant can't comprehend.
thats where things get dark. this is where the defense mechanism of splitting takes place.
its species specific and across the board...
.


read: 'the interpersonal world of the (human) infant' if you're into this stuff. developmental psych is cool.

[swoop]

I would LOVE too. With you are any other psych person I'm sure I would be amazed at what I heard coming form both sides of the room.



No I don't but if I were choosing a psych, his educationally pedigree would not be very high on my priority list. I hope you bring more to the couch than a PHD.




I was not debating that strange or horrible things happen frequently, I just don't think "it" lives within most of us.

I suspect that like a cop, your profession has jaded your view.


its not a jaded thing.. its the other direction.. its embracing the normality of all of this and seeing the roots of extreme behavior in the warm bed of all of us that are 'normal'.
those kids are us.

they're just locked in parts of us that we've already digested and derived nourishment from.
i am attacking the notion that draws a line between their behavior and ours and says.. look at these bad kids, what it says we are we as society... and instead i'm saying... really, you can't separate them from us. we're the same stuff.

i'm coming from access to the self and its shadows and not a splitting off and restriction. its the opposite from what you think i'm coming from.

[J.Greene]

I'm out of here -- this is pointless.

I'd like to poll on this. My amatuer psych skills say he'll be back because it's human nature. It's a common instinct. Sorta like what swoop is saying atmo.

JG

[davids]

I'd like to poll on this. My amatuer psych skills say he'll be back because it's human nature. It's a common instinct. Sorta like what swoop is saying atmo.

JGWell, not now. You queered it.

[J.Greene]

Well, not now. You queered it.

he's watching.....

JG

[Kevan]

That fear of God stuff frosts me. If we're to go down any path similar to that notion then let it be that everyone should try to observe the Golden Rule.

Upon reflection, I think my parents were too strick with my sister and me, during those supposedly gentle times. Today, with all the hell that's going on, I think I gave my kids more freedom to discover their world and how they fit in it. Granted, my town is anything but "real world".

I do think modern culture with its media, its morals, easily implants on children just like a cub watching its mother taking down a prey.

So THAT'S how you do it!

[Grant McLean]

i am attacking the notion that draws a line between their behavior and ours and says.. look at these bad kids, what it says we are we as society... and instead i'm saying... really, you can't separate them from us. we're the same stuff.

i'm coming from access to the self and its shadows and not a splitting off and restriction. its the opposite from what you think i'm coming from.

Can't we get back to blaming the "evil" dopers for ruining cycling discussion?

:banana:

-g

[swoop]

obama/decanio 2008!

[Sandy]

I don't -- I see it as part of being a human being. We need the capacity to act out violently at times to stay alive. I'm still young enough to remember being that age and at times wanting to do physical harm to bullies and others like them.

Sandy, don't you some times feel like reaching through the monitor and grabbing an AH by the throat?


I tried a couple of times but I cut my hands badly. :)

I understand what you say about acting violently, having that capacity. But the initial post was about potential overt violence at a school, by 8 and 9 year olds, against a teacher because the teacher scolded someone. Hardly what we would consider appropriate violence.

Sandy

[roman meal]

its not a jaded thing.. its the other direction.. its embracing the normality of all of this and seeing the roots of extreme behavior in the warm bed of all of us that are 'normal'.
those kids are us.

they're just locked in parts of us that we've already digested and derived nourishment from.
i am attacking the notion that draws a line between their behavior and ours and says.. look at these bad kids, what it says we are we as society... and instead i'm saying... really, you can't separate them from us. we're the same stuff.

i'm coming from access to the self and its shadows and not a splitting off and restriction. its the opposite from what you think i'm coming from.


Swoop tolerates, nay, embraces ambiguity and confusion. Props for him for doing so and for the humane notion that we are our brothers' keeper. We are all connected, whether we realize that or not.

[swoop]

I would LOVE too.


can i turn you onto a book that more than any other book shows what its like to be the one in the chair (and not the couch)?

read learning from the patient by patrick casement.
its very heavy on psychobabble but it also gives an amazing insight upon the thought process of the shrink and how we internalize the patient and allow them to get inside of us as a way of interpreting their meaning. its very real world about how the process works and its vastly different than most folks imagine.

its not dry. it should be at amazon.

[malcolm]

I don't know swoop nor do I play him on TV, but I agree anyone with children has thought of throwing them out a window at 3 in the morning, but a reasonably adjusted adult doesn't do it they just think about it and then don't admit it. I think swoop like many people in health care particularly those that deal with the dirty aspects of life tend to make lite of many things in order to do what they do. Doesn't make them less caring or jaded. I suspect swoop here and swoop at work are different characters, but characters just the same. I could disgust and entertain for hours with tales from the ER and it never ceases to amaze me some of the things that come from the mouths of seasoned ED nurses, quite possible some of the meanest and most caring humans on the planet. For what it is worth I see a fair amount of violent acts committed by children on other children. Just a few months ago we had a 9 year old stab a 6 year old relative through the liver or it may have been the 6 year old that stabbed the 9 yo, can't remember. As far as your docs or therapists credentials some of the worst physicians I've met had some impressive credentials, just couldn't find their arse with both hands.

[swoop]

Swoop tolerates, nay, embraces ambiguity and confusion. Props for him for doing so and for the humane notion that we are our brothers' keeper. We are all connected, whether we realize that or not.


thanks for that. its the embrace of it.... that's the thing. the dividing away of it.. is not the thing. you get it.

[Grant McLean]

I understand what you say about acting violently, having that capacity. But the initial post was about potential overt violence at a school, by 8 and 9 year olds, against a teacher because the teacher scolded someone.

Sandy

You think the kids formulated their plan as a reaction to being scolded?

Isn't that like saying the Yankee's won the world series by scoring
more runs in game 7? The road is a little longer, isn't it?

-g

[roman meal]

thanks for that. its the embrace of it.... that's the thing. the dividing away of it.. is not the thing. you get it.


This is what Swoop looks like in real life.. Swoop, if you don't like me getting personal like that lemme know and I'll take it down.

[Sandy]

Sandy- kids like the ones described were around when you were teaching, they just weren't in your class, or hanging around with the math club. They certainly weren't on the news. news is 24/7 now, and they gotta troll something to fill up the time and boost ratings, partially by looking for these students and exploiting them for a good teaser before the weather. They have existed in equal parts then, now, and will into the future. they need support and care. they'll get it,. maybe not as much as they need, but people will work with them.

As I am typing this in the background there is news on the tv that tells of a high school student who was just stabbed to death outside of a high school in the county in which I taught. That type of student on student (student on teacher) violence/homicide did not exist when I taught. Not my students or no one else's either.


Sandy

[swoop]

they say every eight generations of neurosis produces one generation of psychosis.

ahh progression.

[roman meal]

As I am typing this in the background there is news on the tv that tells of a high school student who was just stabbed to death outside of a high school in the county in which I taught. That type of student on student (student on teacher) violence/homicide did not exist when I taught. Not my students or no one else's either.


Sandy


You mean the Sharks and the Jets didn't mix it up back then? Maybe in the abandoned warehouse, not the school parking lot, but ask Sgt. Krupke..

[Sandy]

You think the kids formulated their plan as a reaction to being scolded?

Isn't that like saying the Yankee's won the world series by scoring
more runs in game 7? The road is a little longer, isn't it?

-g

I just tried to tell what happened. It was reported that was the reason. Do I think that the kids formulated their plan as a reaction to one of them being scolded? That was probaby the impetus but certainly the route onger both as a collective decison to do such and an individual ability to consider and act on it. It was a much longer road.

Sandy

[davids]

As I am typing this in the background there is news on the tv that tells of a high school student who was just stabbed to death outside of a high school in the county in which I taught. That type of student on student (student on teacher) violence/homicide did not exist when I taught. Not my students or no one else's either.


SandySorry Sandy. I truly don't believe that this demonstrates the decline of civilization.

Remember all the stories about shark attacks a few summers back? It was the kind of mini-panic that would have had Viper in a web-linking frenzy. Finally someone stepped back and looked at the numbers. Surprise, surprise - there were no more (and no less) than the normal number of annual attacks. The only difference was that the media had seized on the incidents and was giving them way more play than in other years.

Bad things happen. Alway have, and I'm afraid they always will.

[Sandy]

I am saying this- School is a much more violent place to be than ever before- more violent for students, teachers, and administrators. Years ago one did not go to school thinking that there is a possiblity that you may be murdered before the end of the day. That is a possibility and most are aware of that (not saying that you are not).


Sandy

[dirtdigger88]

Lizzy Borden . . .

there i said it

Jason

[R2D2]

Lord Of The Flies

[Sandy]

Sorry Sandy. I truly don't believe that this demonstrates the decline of civilization.

Remember all the stories about shark attacks a few summers back? It was the kind of mini-panic that would have had Viper in a web-linking frenzy. Finally someone stepped back and looked at the numbers. Surprise, surprise - there were no more (and no less) than the normal number of annual attacks. The only difference was that the media had seized on the incidents and was giving them way more play than in other years.

Bad things happen. Alway have, and I'm afraid they always will.

It does not demonstrate the end of civilization. Bad things happen now. Bad things happened before. Bad things will happen in the future.

We are talking about homicides and violence in school. Are you saying that schools do not have more homicide and violent acts than years in the past? That it appears to be the case just because of better and quicker media communication?

I taught from about 1962 to 1971 in a public high school. I recall no incident even remotely close to what occurred at the elementary school. There were no mass homicides at schools like occur today. No murders on or near school grounds that I remember because of a real or perceived slight by a student, nor any homicides by students because they wanted something (like a jacket) that another student had.


Sandy

[taylorj]

I am saying this- School is a much more violent place to be than ever before- more violent for students, teachers, and administrators. Years ago one did not go to school thinking that there is a possiblity that you may be murdered before the end of the day. That is a possibility and most are aware of that (not saying that you are not).


Sandy

I agree with you Sandy. When I was going to school, I walked (no one got a ride to school), and my Mom was there when I got home. Or she would ride her bike to school to pick me up. I would lament that all the other Mom's didn't ride bikes...why must I suffer? I also had an hour of PE everyday. We must have grown up during an era where one parent could work and one could be around for the kids. Our schools are out of money and no one is getting the right amount of endorphins---

For me, when I hear these things and I feel helpless, I find that if I get involved in the local community (I rounded up bikes/helmets for some public school fifth graders and taught the street-riding safety skills for example), I feel like I am doing something as opposed to feeling despair with the news.

The country is in so much trouble right now that anything I do feels worthless. And then I get an email from a wayward fifth grader asking me if I will take her on a longer ride this weekend. Says that the bike has made her feel good about herself. She will even have her Mom pay me to ride with her. And the small little things matter ever so slightly more.

[roman meal]

Sandy and taylorj:

What I mean is related to what Swoop said nicely:

if there is anything that's changed over time its that the meaning of community has shifted. and the ability of individuals in the margins to flourish when the notion of community in itself has fundamentally shifted... i think what happens is that school become a surrogate for community and they fail to meet the burden because no school has the resources to provide community where there is none.

Schools reflect the communities in which they are situated; I would re-frame that a bit and say that our communities have become less supportive, some have ceased to exist entirely, and some have transformed and become hideously violent. I used to teach at Harlem Park Middle School in West Baltimore. I moved my classroom desk when I saw three old bullet holes in the fiberglass/ metal mesh windows- the metal mesh flared inward, bullets that came in- I didn't know where to move the desk when later I noticed two other bullet holes where the metal flared outward- the bullets came from within the classroom.
There I taught with a gentleman who, when he was a kid, used to sleep overnight in in a park near Mondawman in Baltimore, not unlike the Anacostia area in DC. No one would send their kids on a camping overnight there these days.

In my example, the school was literally caught in a crossfire. It wasn't only the school, the teachers, the students- no one person or entity held all the blame- Everyone there struggled to thrive, struggled and struggles to remain human. It became, at least for me, somewhat less toxic when I stopped blaming, and tried to be more humane, primarily with an understanding that there were many many influences and behaviors that dehumanize individuals, and collectively, a community, and arguably, a country.

Us/them was and continues to be more poison than cyanide, and it went both ways. My only point is that it was a lot easier to come into work when I only reinforced (tried to embrace) what we shared, had in common, and I believe the media do a wonderful job of reinforcing, for ratings and profit, what separates us, alienates us, makes us different and what dehumanizes us all.

Perhaps the simplest act of community is to begin by turning the news off, and then get some strength back.

I do like watching the Wire, though.

[M.Sommers]

Swoop, I'm yer Huckleberry, now ain't that a daisy. Roger sharpened the stick on both ends, the kids from the school were very pig-like, Ralph will save the school.

:beer:

PS. Less people swam 50 and 100 years ago. Also, there were prolly more shark attacks in the Northeast (Jersey had the summer of 1916) but we fixed the problem by polluting the rivers/bays/ocean. All the sharks had to move south. Pollution is good.

Swoop = Ringo, quick draw
Sandy = Wyatt Earp, I don't wanna fight


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx1TWk-V4P0

[Lifelover]

I am saying this- School is a much more violent place to be than ever before- more violent for students, teachers, and administrators. Years ago one did not go to school thinking that there is a possiblity that you may be murdered before the end of the day. That is a possibility and most are aware of that (not saying that you are not).


Sandy

I suspect part of it has to too with working so hard to improve the system for everyone.

Like the rest of you, I have no first hand knowledge as to the specifics of these kids, but it would not surprise me if 20 years ago some of them would have dropped out by the 3rd grade.

As we broaden our scope of kids we try to keep in the system there will be impacts like this to the system. The hope is that society as a whole will be better.

[Dave B]

There is no right or wrong in this argument between forumites.

The problem has many points of view as the problem is not a simple solution. There is not pill, book, method, or solution to "fix" kids, parents, teachers, or society.

what is good is that people even on a bike forum can discuss opinions and passionate points of view.

Education like many things is flawed beyond understanding. The great part of this tragedy is that people keep trying to fix it. ;)

[Grant McLean]

I taught from about 1962 to 1971 in a public high school. I recall no incident even remotely close to what occurred at the elementary school. There were no mass homicides at schools like occur today. No murders on or near school grounds that I remember because of a real or perceived slight by a student, nor any homicides by students because they wanted something (like a jacket) that another student had.


Sandy


May 1975:
Centennial Secondary School, Brampton, Ont.

Michael Slobodian, 16, shoots and kills a teacher and a student, and wounds 13 others before turning the gun on himself.

Aug. 1, 1966:
University of Texas at Austin

Charles Whitman, an architectural engineering student at UT and former U.S. marine, barricades himself on the observation deck of the Main Building's tower with a sniper rifle. Over the next 96 minutes, he kills 16 people and wounds 31 others. Whitman is later killed by police.

[swoop]

centennial high, ontario canada, 1975
st pius x, ontario 1975
cleveland elementary, california 1979
orangeburg massacre, s.carolina 1968
university of texas massacre, 1966

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/bath/index_1.html

[rustychisel]

Lock it. This isn't a debate, it's a rabble trying to score points in the indefensible. FWIW swoop came closest I guess in 'suggesting' the media can sniff out a freakshow and exploit it.* [he didn't actually say this]

This is a lot like another thread I bothered reading, but where are the tigers when you really need 'em?

[swoop]

This is what Swoop looks like in real life.. Swoop, if you don't like me getting personal like that lemme know and I'll take it down.


lacan is a stud. he's the erichie of shrinky types.

[Ahneida Ride]

I might add, that I too received threats from students.
The Administration could care less and failed to take any action.

[William]

I might add, that I too received threats from students.
The Administration could care less and failed to take any action.


Just slip me a note with names scrawled in #2 pencil...using your left hand of course. ;) Problem gone.





William



PS: Say hi to Ma for me. :)

[Sandy]

centennial high, ontario canada, 1975
st pius x, ontario 1975
cleveland elementary, california 1979
orangeburg massacre, s.carolina 1968
university of texas massacre, 1966

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/bath/index_1.html

I taught from 1962 to 1971. The Univeristy of Texas incident was the only one that I remember in that time frame. That is the one that I remember vividly and was even commenting on it to my brother-in-law yesterday before you posted the dates of the incidents. It was the first incident of its kind that I recall. At the time it was amazing to people that such could occur. I am bad on dates and did not know it was 1966. It always marked the "start" of such incidents to me. The shooter was a married, older, former member of the military, atypical of the younger students involved in the incidents of today.

I was reporting a very unfortunate and sad event. I just see that type of violence as increasing dramatically over the years. Some agree. Some don't. I do appreciate the civility and respect in which comments and insight were given by those who responded with their thoughts.

Thanks.


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

I might add, that I too received threats from students.
The Administration could care less and failed to take any action.


My daughter a teacher in a middle school in Durham had threats to a MUCH lesser degree but the administration is very nervous about addressing these types of things. It is VERY VERY few involved and most of the kids are wonderful and wanting to do good and behave.

I attribute alot of the problem to the parents expecting the school system to manage their children. (It is our responsibility to manage our children with the school's help.)

I, as Sandy does, appreciate the ' politeness ' that has been exhibited on this thread. It is a very emotional topic and all of us wish that there was a single concrete solution. Unfortunately like many things, it did not get this way over night and will not go away over night.

Keep in mind that things are never as good or as bad as we see them on a single given day.

[Sandy]

My daughter a teacher in a middle school in Durham had threats to a MUCH lesser degree but the administration is very nervous about addressing these types of things. It is VERY VERY few involved and most of the kids are wonderful and wanting to do good and behave.

I attribute alot of the problem to the parents expecting the school system to manage their children. (It is our responsibility to manage our children with the school's help.)

I, as Sandy does, appreciate the ' politeness ' that has been exhibited on this thread. It is a very emotional topic and all of us wish that there was a single concrete solution. Unfortunately like many things, it did not get this way over night and will not go away over night.

Keep in mind that things are never as good or as bad as we see them on a single given day.

So are you saying here that my cycling really does not suck. That it is actually better than it appears every day?? Thanks. I needed that! :)


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

So are you saying here that my cycling really does not suck. That it is actually better than it appears every day?? Thanks. I needed that! :)


Sandy
:banana: :banana: :banana: YES

[swoop]

the old days when news wasn't about evoking fear and paranoia =campy
ratings based news hours on the 24 cycle= shimano
tmz= sram

[ecl2k]

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/conduct_disorder

Conduct Disorder

No. 33; Updated July 2004

"Conduct disorder" refers to a group of behavioral and emotional problems in youngsters. Children and adolescents with this disorder have great difficulty following rules and behaving in a socially acceptable way. They are often viewed by other children, adults and social agencies as "bad" or delinquent, rather than mentally ill. Many factors may contribute to a child developing conduct disorder, including brain damage, child abuse, genetic vulnerability, school failure, and traumatic life experiences.

Children or adolescents with conduct disorder may exhibit some of the following behaviors:

Aggression to people and animals

* bullies, threatens or intimidates others
* often initiates physical fights
* has used a weapon that could cause serious physical harm to others (e.g. a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife or gun)
* is physically cruel to people or animals
* steals from a victim while confronting them (e.g. assault)
* forces someone into sexual activity

Destruction of Property

* deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention to cause damage
* deliberately destroys other's property

Deceitfulness, lying, or stealing

* has broken into someone else's building, house, or car
* lies to obtain goods, or favors or to avoid obligations
* steals items without confronting a victim (e.g. shoplifting, but without breaking and entering)

Serious violations of rules

* often stays out at night despite parental objections
* runs away from home
* often truant from school

Children who exhibit these behaviors should receive a comprehensive evaluation. Many children with a conduct disorder may have coexisting conditions such as mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, ADHD, learning problems, or thought disorders which can also be treated. Research shows that youngsters with conduct disorder are likely to have ongoing problems if they and their families do not receive early and comprehensive treatment. Without treatment, many youngsters with conduct disorder are unable to adapt to the demands of adulthood and continue to have problems with relationships and holding a job. They often break laws or behave in an antisocial manner.

[swoop]

i'd love to encourage people to not read the dsm iv unless they are already clinicians. its a book that is easily misused, even by folks like me who are in the field.
its a very limited way of looking at things and really is to communicate to the insurance industry and to other clinicians. it can be used to do more harm than good. it can be overused and it can serve a master other than the patients actual needs.

[Lazy Bill]

i'd love to encourage people to not read the dsm iv unless they are already clinicians. its a book that is easily misused, even by folks like me who are in the field.
its a very limited way of looking at things and really is to communicate to the insurance industry and to other clinicians. it can be used to do more harm than good. it can be overused and it can serve a master other than the patients actual needs.
Yes, only the high priests should read the holy books.

[swoop]

Yes, only the high priests should read the holy books.


most of the high priests i know use it as little as possible. you pull back the curtains and you see that its really a cultural and political document masquerading as legit info.

its only as good as the training, critical thinking, and experience of the person using it.

[Sandy]

the old days when news wasn't about evoking fear and paranoia =campy
ratings based news hours on the 24 cycle= shimano
tmz= sram

Past- Campy
Present- Shimano
Future- Sram :)

Past- LeMond, Indurain, Armstrong
Present- ?,?,?
Future- Sandy, Sandy, Sandy :)



:banana: Sram Sandy :banana:

[Dave B]

Past- Campy
Present- Shimano
Future- Sram :)

Past- LeMond, Indurain, Armstrong
Present- ?,?,?
Future- Sandy, Sandy, Sandy :)



:banana: Sram Sandy :banana:


Did you make the leap?

What happens to all of your shimano?

[Lazy Bill]

- its really a cultural and political document masquerading as legit info. -

Sounds like all holy books.
I've only looked at parts for insurance purposes, when I needed help with some vocabulary.

[Ahneida Ride]

Another Murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Lo)

This are not "isolated' incidences. Teachers are continuously being
intimidated. It just does not make the mainstream press.

[sc53]

Hey Sandy, the news this morning announced that a NINE YEAR OLD girl was the "ringleader" of the child-gang! Pretty sad state of affairs.

[RPS]

Swoop tolerates, nay, embraces ambiguity and confusion. Props for him for doing so and for the humane notion that we are our brothers' keeper. We are all connected, whether we realize that or not.So are wolves and sheep. :rolleyes:
Maybe swoop is ambiguous out of confusion. ;)

[R2D2]

..... The shooter was a married, older, former member of the military, atypical of the younger students involved in the incidents of today.



Sandy

He was also whacked on speed for weeks leading up to the event.

[Sandy]

Hey Sandy, the news this morning announced that a NINE YEAR OLD girl was the "ringleader" of the child-gang! Pretty sad state of affairs.

I just read that all 9 students were suspended, 7 for the rest of the year, and that 3 face juvenile charges. Each had a role- including handcuffing the teacher, hitting her with the paperweight, stabbing her, and cleaning up.

I think that girl gangs and girl violence has also increased in certain inner city areas, at least.

I find it very interesting that the name of the town where the incident occurred is Waycross.


Sandy

[roman meal]

So are wolves and sheep. :rolleyes:
)


So, we are different species? That helps the process of dehumanization along nicely. Let's just call them predators, the velociraptors of the school system.