Judge Judy for President

[scrooge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12x52UzJsc

Sorry if I'm outing someone who doesn't want to be outed :)

[Tobias]

I feel sorry for the dog. In time he'll be road kill unless the owners got the message from this event.

[capybaras]

Those people are insane. :confused:

[Jeff Weir]

The owners of the dog looked just like Atmo and the beautiful Deb....

Just sayin'

[fmbp]

this Judge Judy video came up a while back. Here's the thread:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=24480&page=2&pp=15&highlight=judy

[onekgguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12x52UzJsc

Sorry if I'm outing someone who doesn't want to be outed :)

No worries about outing me...i posted it. :beer:

Kevin g

[BumbleBeeDave]

No worries about outing me...i posted it. :beer:

Kevin g

. . . perhaps we should have a forum gathering near your place and have about 75 folks all ride by that house at once--repeatedly?

Those dog owners are nut jobs, and I'd be willing to bet their reaction if their dog got run over and killed by a car or those 75 cyclists would simply be--to get another dog. After all, they've already demonstrated that they care more about avoiding responsibility than respecting the animal anyway.

I wish Judge Judy had simply looked the woman in the eye and asked her, "Look, exactly WHAT part of "You are selfish idiots with no judgment' do you NOT understand?

BBD

[Sandy]

There are responsible dog owners and non-responsible dog owners. Unfortunately, this was an instance of irresponsible dog owners who still don't get it. Their dog was not under their control. End of story.

The owners obviously had no concern for you or their dog, but had concern only for themselves.

I have seen cases on court tv where pit bulls run loose, attack and hurt another dog (on leash) very badly, and somehow the pit bull's owners think that they are not responsible. It is almost amazing that people like that appear so stupid and accept no real responsibility. Control your dog or accept what the dog does as your responsibility, plain and simple.

You handled yourself admirably and with restraint.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I feel sorry for the dog. In time he'll be road kill unless the owners got the message from this event.

You got that right!! I really doubt that they got the message that it is necessary to control their dog. They might change the dog's behavior, not because they care for the dog or the people, but because it cost them money.


Sandy

[Sandy]

PS- I find Judge Judy to be an obnoxious, nasty, and disrespectful judge who does a disservice to the legal system and the image of judges.


Sandy

[M.Sommers]

There are responsible dog owners and non-responsible dog owners. Unfortunately, this was an instance of irresponsible dog owners who still don't get it. Their dog was not under their control. End of story.

The owners obviously had no concern for you or their dog, but had concern only for themselves.

I have seen cases on court tv where pit bulls run loose, attack and hurt another dog (on leash) very badly, and somehow the pit bull's owners think that they are not responsible. It is almost amazing that people like that appear so stupid and accept no real responsibility. Control your dog or accept what the dog does as your responsibility, plain and simple.

You handled yourself admirably and with restraint.


Sandy
Sandy,

How does it make you feel to google 'pitbull attack' (or worse google image) and see the thousands of deaths and maulings of pitbulls who have killed their owners? Their own masters? Or children? Or senior citizens?

With that, honest and fair question...what do you believe/feel is the specific solution(s) to this problem is our society? Not large paintbrush strokes for the answer, but specific black and white solutions?

Thanks,
M. Sommers

[onekgguy]

I actually think my wife and I cared more about the dog's welfare than the owners did. After the incident I'd see the dog tied up under a tree but too often I'd hear from friends who'd drive by the home on their way to work say that they'd seen the dog running loose. The family still lives there but I haven't seen the dog for nearly two years. My guess is that it finally became road kill. Sad. It was just a fun loving dog doing what dogs do when they're not restrained or trained correctly.

Kevin g

[onekgguy]

They might change the dog's behavior, not because they care for the dog or the people, but because it cost them money.


Sandy

Actually it didn't cost them a dime. The show pays all costs involved in getting people to appear on the show, including whatever judgements are found against them.

I always feel I have to qualify our appearance on the show...I didn't file our civil suit with the Judge Judy show. I filed in our county court and somehow the producers at JJ got a hold of it and contacted both parties involved to see if there was interest in trying the case on their show.

The defendants told us that they'd love to do the show as they knew it would cost them nothing and they'd get a free trip to Hollywood out of the deal. They also told us that there was no way they were going to ever pay us a dime if we won in our local court. It's one thing to win a judgement but it's a whole other issue to collect on it. Had it not been for my 9 year old daughter pleading with me to do the show I'd most likely have let it play out in our county court and done whatever I could to garnish his wages. It's amazing the things we do for our kids.

Kevin g

[M.Sommers]

This video only further advances these key points:

1). Human beings are often pathetic. Mr. Jones accuses the victim, "My deal is, that Mr. Gilmore created this incident, he was at the wrong place at the wrong time and my dog happened to pull her head out and run him down." Mrs. Jones also attempts to accuse the VICTIM, "Mr. Gilmore was riding his bike 35-40 miles away from his own residence, on a major highway...highways are dangerous" where upon Judge Judy slams down the truth, "THEY'RE (highways) not dangerous unless there is a dog off the leash!!!"

2). Dogs are dangerous.

3). Legislation is needed for all dogs. Guns are dangerous, dogs are too. If it was a pitbull, if could've pulled the face off the cyclist (and they do).

4). Amazingly the Jones STILL blame KevinG, even at the very end. OMG.

I hope KevinG is healthy, and riding a nice bike. We cannot see the final decision, but if I were Judge Judy, I'd forbid the Jones household from EVER owning a dog or any animal whatsoever.

[KeithS]

I think I've met that dog. We live in an atmosphere of avoid accountability at all costs.

Almost met my maker last summer on the last few miles of a ride in South Dakota, very angry and territorial lab, I think he was accustomed to being off leash. I was over 200 miles from home on a busy road, luckily that state has less than 2500 miles of bike trails.

She really didn't get it did she, unless there was much more edited neither of them made an argument that made a lick of sense. Whadda moron...

Not too many bad dogs, just lots of bad owners. We have some neighbors with a pit bull, dog scares the bejeebers out of me, but the owners really love their dogs and pay a lot of attention to them. There are three dogs in that house two houses away and I wouldn't know they had a dog except for seeing them. Beside the pit bull there are two dogs that if they were a little bigger they could be cats. We need more pet owners like that. The people are as socially clumsy as anyone I've ever met, but they treat their critters well.

[paulandmonster]

i have an arbitration july 7th with a city bus company. bus hit me on my c-40 hyperon wheeled campy record equiped. my lawyer says the hardest thing is going to be getting money for bike. i find this hard to believe. but who knows i just need an arbitrator who knows that pro bikes arnt 500 dollars.

[Sandy]

Sandy,

How does it make you feel to google 'pitbull attack' (or worse google image) and see the thousands of deaths and maulings of pitbulls who have killed their owners? Their own masters? Or children? Or senior citizens?

With that, honest and fair question...what do you believe/feel is the specific solution(s) to this problem is our society? Not large paintbrush strokes for the answer, but specific black and white solutions?

Thanks,
M. Sommers

I didn't know that you didn't like pit bulls :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I will try to answer your question as best I can as long as onekguy does not mind as it is his thread. I will respond in this post for now.

First, a couple of comments about pit bulls:

1. Pit bulls were bred to fight dogs and not people. In fact, they were bred to be friendly with people and non-aggressive as the dogs had to be handled by people during dog fights and those who handled their dog did not want to be bit by their own dog.

2. If you read about pits, you will see that pits USED to be welcomed into families, even with kids as they got along with people quite well.

3. People have ruined a lot of pits because of the breeding, the horrendous treatment they sometimes receive by their irresponsible owner, and some unscrupulous people who want to fight their pit or use them in a macho way or use them to guard their drugs....People breed and train pits to be aggressive.

4. Many instances of dog attacks that are thought to be done by pits are not done by pits but by one of the numerous dogs that look like pits.

5. Pits are remarkably popular dogs (unfortunately) in many urban and surrounding areas and the number of attacks by pits seem high in part because of numbers of the breed.

6. Other dogs bite/atttack, with horrifying results, other dogs, cats, and people but those attacks are not as noteworthy as those done by pits.

7. I am fully aware of pit bull attacks on animals and people and the tragedy that some of these animals cause. I will not watch dog fights or even hunting on videos as I really dislike watching an animal being killed or hurt, especially on purpose.

8.Don't ban the breeds as I don't think that works as underground pits and dog fighting will continue. If pits are not around, other breeds wil be used in place of pits.

9. Don't stereotype the breed. That is unfair to too many excellent pit bulls.

Black and white solutions-

1. Spay and neuter all pits that are adopted from shelters and rescue groups.Require adopted pits to attend obedience classes. Do not adopt pits into homes with little children nor to homes with another pit (especially same sex), and be very careful about adopting pits into homes with other dogs and with cats.

2. Control the breeding of pits so that one cannot simply breed pits with little or no regulations- Require all pits to be registered, and require proof of updated vaccinations, and proper vetinary care. Possibly charge a special fee for breeding pit bulls. Make it dificult to breed pits unless you do it responsiblly.

3. Limit the number of pits a person can own or breed.

4. Most importantly- Give significant fines/ jail time/ community service for owners who fight pits, and whose dogs attack other dogs and cats, whose dogs attack people, and owners who mistreat their pits. Give really substantial and fines and jail time for repeat offenders. Make it much more difficult to be an irresponsible pit bull owner. No simple slap on the wrist.

5. Give fines for pit bulls found running loose. Increase dramatically the amount of the fine for repeat occurrences. If problem persists seize dogs and take away ownership of the pit.

6. Educate people about dogs and the responsibility of dog/pet ownership. Do that through shelters, rescue groups, and communications from local government. Use schools to teach kids how important it is to be kind and caring to animals, including dogs and cats. Teach pet responsibllity in school and in church. Learning kindness and responsibility towards animals will help a great deal. Have community service programs. Better to spend money on education than on the aftermath of a horrendous attack.

7. Educate people how to better interact with dogs and how to understand better what a dog is communicating. Some kids are almost clueless in understanding what a dog is trying to communicate. Many kids are never taught how to approach a dog. I have seen many parents at shelters allow their kids to approach dogs in a remarkably unsafe manner and not even seem to be aware of the potential.


The above are ideas that spontaneously occurred to me when you asked the question. This is done without researching or studying the problem for solutions.


Seeking Solutions Serotta Sandy

[Sandy]

This video only further advances these key points:

1). Human beings are often pathetic. Mr. Jones accuses the victim, "My deal is, that Mr. Gilmore created this incident, he was at the wrong place at the wrong time and my dog happened to pull her head out and run him down." Mrs. Jones also attempts to accuse the VICTIM, "Mr. Gilmore was riding his bike 35-40 miles away from his own residence, on a major highway...highways are dangerous" where upon Judge Judy slams down the truth, "THEY'RE (highways) not dangerous unless there is a dog off the leash!!!"

2). Dogs are dangerous.

3). Legislation is needed for all dogs. Guns are dangerous, dogs are too. If it was a pitbull, if could've pulled the face off the cyclist (and they do).

4). Amazingly the Jones STILL blame KevinG, even at the very end. OMG.
I hope KevinG is healthy, and riding a nice bike. We cannot see the final decision, but if I were Judge Judy, I'd forbid the Jones household from EVER owning a dog or any animal whatsoever.

Why are dogs dangerous? Because they bite? People are more dangerous. People shoot guns and kill people, drive cars under the influence of alcohol/drugs, ,...., and people hurt people by words and actions a whole lot more than dogs do.

Dogs almost always clearly communicate what they are going to do before they do it. People often don't communicate what they are going do before they do it. Often that is intentional.

Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

Mr Sommers, please chill..... THANKS pete

[97CSI]

Video demonstrates so well that many people, like all dogs, should be neutered prior to their reproducing. So unfortunate that those clowns had kids.

[Sandy]

Video demonstrates so well that many people, like all dogs, should be neutered prior to their reproducing. So unfortunate that those clowns had kids.

I sometimes watch some of the judge shows on tv and some of the most amazing defendants are dog owners (often pit bull owners) who absolutely don't understand or believe that if their dog is outside off leash and the dog attacks and hurts another dog that they as the owners are responsible for such. Some of the "reasoning" they give as to why it is not their responsibility is absolutely stunningly pathetic and illogical. One thing for sure is they absolutely should not own a dog. They don't get it and never will- The pit owners I am talking about and the defendant in this trial.


Sandy

[Sandy]

i have an arbitration july 7th with a city bus company. bus hit me on my c-40 hyperon wheeled campy record equiped. my lawyer says the hardest thing is going to be getting money for bike. i find this hard to believe. but who knows i just need an arbitrator who knows that pro bikes arnt 500 dollars.

Why would a bike be any different than an automobile? Doesn't make much sense to me either. Is it because most people don't realize how expensive a bike can be?

Sandy

[roman meal]

you might have guessed Im not that big a fan of dogs- but your responses here have been great to read. You've mentioned a lot of points i've never really considered before, and you've done a good job stating them.

If my family were to adopt a dog, we'd consider a Pembroke Corgi. Intelligent dog, no?

[Sandy]

I took my dog to the vet yesterday. She owns a Pembroke Welsh Corgi that participates in agility trials. Corgis are highly intelligent. They are one of the herding breeds and I don't know of any herding breed dog that is not intelligent. Neat looking dogs. I have met a few of them and really liked them.


Sandy

[roman meal]

I took my dog to the vet yesterday. She owns a Pembroke Welsh Corgi that participates in agility trials. Corgis are highly intelligent. They are one of the herding breeds and I don't know of any herding breed dog that is not intelligent. Neat looking dogs. I have met a few of them and really liked them.


Sandy


We would have to build a system of tunnels for it up here in the snow. Thanks.

[Sandy]

We would have to build a system of tunnels for it up here in the snow. Thanks.

At least the tunnels could be small if you got a Corgi- Short little legs.


Sandy

[William]

Pitbulls, AM Staffordshire Terriers and other Bully breeds really do get a bad rap. The breed themselves are very devoted family dogs, especially to children. It's just irresponsible owners, and dumbass drug dealers who train them to be that way. Back in the 1800's when they were bred for fighting, they were also bred to be docile to people. The handlers needed to be able to go in and take them out of the fight with out the dog turning on them. Any dog that bit the handler/owner was immediately taken out of breeding (and usually put down). They developed them to have a high prey drive toward animals not people, which is why for the most part, you can't have them with other animals (there are exceptions). They were the most common family dogs in the early part of the century in the U.S.

Dangerous? No more so than any other breed. Percentage wise they account for fewer bites than many other breeds. I think the Dalmation topped the list last year for the most biting incidents. PB's tend to attract much more press for an attack than any other breed.

As stated before, irresponsible owners, breeders and drug dealers are the ones who create the problem, not the breed themselves. A properly socialized Pit Bull is more likely to be a loving couch potato than a viscous attack dog. Almost any large breed can be taught to be viscous. Mastiffs are known to be gentle giants that are great with children, yet two killed a woman in a hallway in San Francisco a few years ago. That incident showed that it was training, not the breed that caused the attack.
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying that Pit bulls will never attack. They can and they do when they have been trained to do so, or are the result of faulty back-yard breeding by breeders who try to cross them with other breeds to make them bigger and stronger. You sometimes get unreliable temprements. In my opinion, any breed that has attacked un-provoked should be put down. All I am saying is that they aren’t a loaded gun walking around waiting to go off. A properly bred and socialized breed of dog is no more likely to attack than any other breed. The problem starts when a certain breed becomes popular with the wrong “type” of owners.

I thought I had read that Dalmations had the highest incidence of biting. Turns out it was German Shepards. I'll also point out that statistics vary from source to source. Even within the CDC. Bottom line is, nobody really knows the true numbers of biting incidents per year, let alone breed specific bites. There are just too many that go unreported.

William

[Grant McLean]

I always feel I have to qualify our appearance on the show...

Kevin g

I thought you did marvelously well. When your wife testified that during the
phone conversation she showed concern how the dog was doing - you won the
case in my book.
You are far more reasonable people than I am, let me tell you!

I'm not a avid viewer of the show, but i've seen it enough times to see the
plaintiff get in their own way. Once the facts come out, it seems you knew
to say just enough to let JJ make your case for you. When it's going well
for the plaintiff, and she starts ripping the defendants a new one, some plaintiffs
just don't know to leave well enough alone, and stay quiet!!


-g

[Fixed]

No worries about outing me...i posted it. :beer:

Kevin g
way to stand up for your rights bro
you look like you know what your doing in the court room
cheers

[scrooge]

I think our dog is a pitbull mix--and she's great with kids--and scared of my bike (trying to keep things on topic here!)

As I've said to others--think more Buster Brown, less Michael Vick...

Here's the American Kennel Club's description of the American Pit Bull Terrier:
“The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life,” the group’s Web site declares. “This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children.”


Pitbulls, AM Staffordshire Terriers and other Bully breeds really do get a bad rap. The breed themselves are very devoted family dogs, especially to children. It's just irresponsible owners, and dumbass drug dealers who train them to be that way. Back in the 1800's when they were bred for fighting, they were also bred to be docile to people. The handlers needed to be able to go in and take them out of the fight with out the dog turning on them. Any dog that bit the handler/owner was immediately taken out of breeding (and usually put down). They developed them to have a high prey drive toward animals not people, which is why for the most part, you can't have them with other animals (there are exceptions). They were the most common family dogs in the early part of the century in the U.S.

Dangerous? No more so than any other breed. Percentage wise they account for fewer bites than many other breeds. I think the Dalmation topped the list last year for the most biting incidents. PB's tend to attract much more press for an attack than any other breed.

As stated before, irresponsible owners, breeders and drug dealers are the ones who create the problem, not the breed themselves. A properly socialized Pit Bull is more likely to be a loving couch potato than a viscous attack dog. Almost any large breed can be taught to be viscous. Mastiffs are known to be gentle giants that are great with children, yet two killed a woman in a hallway in San Francisco a few years ago. That incident showed that it was training, not the breed that caused the attack.
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying that Pit bulls will never attack. They can and they do when they have been trained to do so, or are the result of faulty back-yard breeding by breeders who try to cross them with other breeds to make them bigger and stronger. You sometimes get unreliable temprements. In my opinion, any breed that has attacked un-provoked should be put down. All I am saying is that they aren’t a loaded gun walking around waiting to go off. A properly bred and socialized breed of dog is no more likely to attack than any other breed. The problem starts when a certain breed becomes popular with the wrong “type” of owners.

I thought I had read that Dalmations had the highest incidence of biting. Turns out it was German Shepards. I'll also point out that statistics vary from source to source. Even within the CDC. Bottom line is, nobody really knows the true numbers of biting incidents per year, let alone breed specific bites. There are just too many that go unreported.

William

[onekgguy]

Was that along highway 4? I think I've met that dog.

Keith...the crash happened on hwy 3, a couple miles north of Northfield if you know the area...the turkey farm east of the highway.

I thought you did marvelously well. When your wife testified that during the phone conversation she showed concern how the dog was doing - you won the case in my book.

Thanks...we practiced while walking the streets of Hollywood the night before and tried to anticipate some of the question JJ might ask. We had no idea what their defense would be.

way to stand up for your rights bro you look like you know what your doing in the court room
cheers

Thanks...hope to never have to do it again.

Kevin g

[Sandy]

I thought you did marvelously well. When your wife testified that during the
phone conversation she showed concern how the dog was doing - you won the
case in my book.
You are far more reasonable people than I am, let me tell you!

I'm not a avid viewer of the show, but i've seen it enough times to see the
plaintiff get in their own way. Once the facts come out, it seems you knew
to say just enough to let JJ make your case for you. When it's going well
for the plaintiff, and she starts ripping the defendants a new one, some plaintiffs
just don't know to leave well enough alone, and stay quiet!!


-g

Very well said. Paramount to them winning was the law pertaining to the incident. They really didn't need much of anything else as onekgguy explained what occurred simply and clearly. His wife showed more concern for the dog than did the owners. onekdguy and his wife were composed, sincere, and honest. The other couple didn't present themseves similarly. When all was in, the law was there plus absolutely everything else. The decision could ony go one way.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Pitbulls, AM Staffordshire Terriers and other Bully breeds really do get a bad rap. The breed themselves are very devoted family dogs, especially to children. It's just irresponsible owners, and dumbass drug dealers who train them to be that way. Back in the 1800's when they were bred for fighting, they were also bred to be docile to people. The handlers needed to be able to go in and take them out of the fight with out the dog turning on them. Any dog that bit the handler/owner was immediately taken out of breeding (and usually put down). They developed them to have a high prey drive toward animals not people, which is why for the most part, you can't have them with other animals (there are exceptions). They were the most common family dogs in the early part of the century in the U.S.

Dangerous? No more so than any other breed. Percentage wise they account for fewer bites than many other breeds. I think the Dalmation topped the list last year for the most biting incidents. PB's tend to attract much more press for an attack than any other breed.

As stated before, irresponsible owners, breeders and drug dealers are the ones who create the problem, not the breed themselves. A properly socialized Pit Bull is more likely to be a loving couch potato than a viscous attack dog. Almost any large breed can be taught to be viscous. Mastiffs are known to be gentle giants that are great with children, yet two killed a woman in a hallway in San Francisco a few years ago. That incident showed that it was training, not the breed that caused the attack.
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying that Pit bulls will never attack. They can and they do when they have been trained to do so, or are the result of faulty back-yard breeding by breeders who try to cross them with other breeds to make them bigger and stronger. You sometimes get unreliable temprements. In my opinion, any breed that has attacked un-provoked should be put down. All I am saying is that they aren’t a loaded gun walking around waiting to go off. A properly bred and socialized breed of dog is no more likely to attack than any other breed. The problem starts when a certain breed becomes popular with the wrong “type” of owners.

I thought I had read that Dalmations had the highest incidence of biting. Turns out it was German Shepards. I'll also point out that statistics vary from source to source. Even within the CDC. Bottom line is, nobody really knows the true numbers of biting incidents per year, let alone breed specific bites. There are just too many that go unreported.

William

Great understanding and insight. You are spot on in most everything that you say.

I do think that pit bulls have a greater tendency to attack other dogs than most breeds. In addition they possess a gameness unlike most (or all) dogs that if they are involved in a fight they will continue to fight and not stop even if they are badly injured. I will never take my pit to a dog park for lots of reasons. I do not think that he would start a fight, but if pushed by an aggessive dog, I don't think he would back off and I will never let anything like thathappen. There is a tremendous disparity within the pit breeds for aggressiveness to other dogs and animals and any pit owner must be aware of its capabilities. I know I am, and mine really is a sensitive little boy dressed in an adult pit bull costume, as stated before.

The horrendous death of Diane Whipple in 2001 in San Francisco, that William mentioned, by two Presa Canario dogs, was remarkably hideous in nature and was a perfect example of absurdly irresponsible owners, dogs that had exhibited aggressive tendencies in the past, an owner(s) who had no ability in controlling the dogs-one a 125 pound male and the other a little smaller female, owners who blamed the woman who was attacked outside her apartment door in the hallway, and a 33 year old youg woman whose throat was bitten severely before the dogs stopped (primarily by Bane, the male). That incident is so representative of when it all goes wrong with dog ownership. By the way, the dogs were not pit bulls. After the incident, the demand for purchase of Presa Canarios increased dramatically. Both owners were charged and convicted-The woman who had "control" of the dog was convicted of second degree murder and her husband of manslaughter.

A truly amazing aspect of the above incident was what the owners said about Diane Whipple- The husband/defense team suggested that Diane Whipple may have been using steroids or had a pheromone based fragrance that drew the dog to her when she was attacked. The prosecution had 30 witnesses who had previous problems with the dogs and their behavior. The dogs, which were on leash, got away from the female owner, went down the hall and attacked and killed the woman outside of her apartment in the hallway. The two dogs that had exhibited aggressive tendencies previously but the defense had audacity to blame it on Miss Whipple. The defense even said that Miss Whipple had gotten back in her apartment during the attack but came back outside again. Needless to say the owners were amazingly irresponsible owners.

As William has stated pits are not the dogs with the highest incidence ot bites per number in the breed.


Sandy

[William]

Kevin,

Glad you're healed up and that JJ saw it your way. I apologize for running off there but irresposible folks and knee jerk reactions tend to get me going.




Many happy and safe miles to you. :)




William

[dave thompson]

Judge Judith Sheindlin to decide Landis' fate

By Kirk Mawlazes, North American Editor

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) announced today that a decision in the most recent Floyd Landis vs. USADA arbitration hearing would be impossible to render, due to a lack of openness in the proceedings. The CAS panel said that since no decision will be reached by them in their closed deliberations, they are handing the final decision off to a third-party single adjudicator with the ability and infrastructure to make it as public as possible, to be agreed upon by both parties. And after discussing with each sides' counsel, the judge named is the honorable Judith Sheindlin.

"Both sides are interested in as much public transparency in this case as possible," said court spokesperson Petri Hawkins-Byrd. "We will do our best to make sure a fair decision is rendered and that the public gets to see every aspect of the hearing."

Sheindlin, a former family court judge, has served as an arbitrator for the past 12 years on her syndicated television show Judge Judy. This will be the venue for the final decision and is expected to air as a special month-long series on her program. "Both the USADA and Landis camps have acted like children at times in their previous hearing," Sheindlin said. "So I think it is fitting that a family court judge finish this case."

[97CSI]

And it is not yet midnight.............at least here in the EST.

[onekgguy]

Kevin,

Glad you're healed up and that JJ saw it your way. I apologize for running off there but irresposible folks and knee jerk reactions tend to get me going.




Many happy and safe miles to you. :)




William

William...Thanks...I'm a dog lover myself. Here are our two pups from a few years ago...Toby and Allie (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xcePdyd3p-c).

Kevin g

[Sandy]

Those pups are adorable. I am not very good at identifying breeds of little dogs sometimes. Are they Japanese Chins? Whatever they are, they seem so cute and playful.


Sandy

[onekgguy]

Those pups are adorable. I am not very good at identifying breeds of little dogs sometimes. Are they Japanese Chins? Whatever they are, they seem so cute and playful.


Sandy

Sandy,

They're ****-zu's...quite the little companions. They're wrestling as I type this. I took this video (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=1HAOhcyzTrQ) at the dog park last spring. We were there the other day but it needs a few more weeks to dry out especially after the foot of snow we're in the process of getting.

Kevin g

[Sandy]

Sandy,

They're ****-zu's...quite the little companions. They're wrestling as I type this. I took this video (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=1HAOhcyzTrQ) at the dog park last spring. We were there the other day but it needs a few more weeks to dry out especially after the foot of snow we're in the process of getting.

Kevin g

Wow! My first choice was Japanese Chins and my second choice was ****-zu's. I should have know better. My sister had a ****-zu, my friend just adopted one from the local rescue shelter, and there were quite a few of them there a couple of months ago that were part of 1,000 dogs (that is correct) seized from a puppy mill in Virginia. Our local rescue shelter received 25 of the 1,000 and quite a few were ****-zus.

That is quite a dog park. Your little guys have remained adorable!


Not feeling too bright,


****-zu Sandy

[DarrenCT]

judge judy lives about 10 miles away from me on some huge estate

she sued her neighbor for excessive noise. he has a lacrosse field in his back yard and apparently she wasnt happy

whadddabitch!

[onekgguy]

Not feeling too bright,


****-zu Sandy

Not to worry. They're litter mates with such different personalities. Allie tends to be a bit aggressive toward other dogs so long as she's on a leash connected to me. Toby, no aggressiveness whatsoever...he just wants to make nice. It's funny...when we're at the dog park, Allie has no aggressive tendencies toward other dogs at all when she's running loose. It's just while she's on the leash and thinking I'm going to protect her or something. I can't figure it out.

Kevin g

[M.Sommers]

judge judy lives about 10 miles away from me on some huge estate

she sued her neighbor for excessive noise. he has a lacrosse field in his back yard and apparently she wasnt happy

whadddabitch!

Whatever. What kind of beer does she drink. :D

[RPS]

Dangerous? No more so than any other breed. Percentage wise they account for fewer bites than many other breeds. I think the Dalmation topped the list last year for the most biting incidents. PB's tend to attract much more press for an attack than any other breed..As more lethal than most dogs, that's not surprising since they are kept away from people. However, if you look at the number of people killed by dog breeds you'll find much different data. That's what scares the he11 out of many people. It's the severity of the attacks.


Mastiffs are known to be gentle giants that are great with children, yet two killed a woman in a hallway in San Francisco a few years ago.As Sandy stated, Mastiffs (or English Mastiffs as they are better know) were not involved. Mastiffs are very large (males over 200 pounds are common) but they are very gentle. I had one and he was a great pet -- never bit or turned on anyone even when he was sick with cancer and in pain. For those who don't know the difference, I've attached a photo below (not of my dog).

[M.Sommers]

As more lethal than most dogs, that's not surprising since they are kept away from people. However, if you look at the number of people killed by dog breeds you'll find much different data. That's what scares the he11 out of many people. It's the severity of the attacks.



http://www.city-journal.org/html/9_2_scared_of_pit.html

Here is a well written article, "Though dog advocates would dispute it, our fear was justified. According to the Centers for Disease Control, dogs bite 4 million to 5 million Americans every year. Few attacks are fatal (25 in 1996), but serious injuries—everything from a gash in the arm requiring a few stitches to severed hands and fractured skulls—continue to rise and now stand at more than 750,000 annually, up nearly 40 percent from 1986. Dog bites are one of the top causes of non-fatal injuries in the nation.

Children are the most frequent victims, accounting for 60 percent of the dog bites and 20 of the 25 dog-bite fatalities in 1996. Dog attacks are now the No. 1 reason that children wind up in hospital emergency rooms. Incredibly, nearly half of all American kids have been bitten by the age of 12. The Humane Society of the United States estimates that more than $100 million gets spent yearly treating dog bites in the nation's emergency rooms, and U.S. insurance companies paid out $250 million in dog-bite liability claims in 1996.

Pit bulls and pit-bull crosses (not always easy to distinguish) have caused more than a third of the nation's dog-bite fatalities since 1979 and a comparable proportion of serious injuries. The rising number of attacks, and the unease pit bulls and other dangerous dogs cause in public spaces, have spurred many municipalities to crack down with legislation ranging from muzzle laws to bans on pit bulls and certain other breeds.

New York City, with a million dogs, conforms to these national trends. In 1997, the Department of Health reported 7,075 dog bites in the city and some 1,000 complaints about frightening dogs. Gotham police and other authorities had to round up 892 biting dogs in 1997, 200 more than the year before. Of these, 294—33 percent—were pit bulls or pit-bull mixes, though they make up only an estimated 15 percent of the city's dogs..."

And fwiw, the numbers have only become more alarming and concerning since the article was written (Spring 1999). Here is the latest trend, jail time for the owner of a dog (pit bull) that mauls someone (this article involves a stolen bike too):

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8741073

The trend for dog attacks in America, especially pit bulls is alarming and of national concern. Many states are moving to ban pit bulls all together, proof of the factual, public concern. There are certainly two sides to this issue and unfortunately caring, loving owners will lose out in the end as the pit bull attacks increase. Whether the increase in pit bull attacks is attributable to a). the increased numbers of pits, the popularity of the breed b). negligible owners c). or simply a genetic, inherent ability for the pit breed to 'snap' (even on it's owners and family members)...won't matter as in the end more states are moving to ban the dog. Many believe choice 'c' is the larger, logical issue pertaining to the breed, some disagree.

For those who choose 'b', negligible owners, it appears there is no fundamental fix or solution which can guarantee public safety...laws exist which prevent citizens from walking around in public with a loaded gun in plain sight. A weapon in the form of a pistol (where allowed) must be concealed and the owner must obtain a license. Yet to many, walking around with a pit bull on a leash is akin to walking around wielding a loaded twelve guage shotgun in the sunlight. A leash is a mere piece of rope to be pulled from the owner, perhaps the solution is to muzzle all dogs when they are not within the actual home/dwelling? The public intrinsicly asks, are the pit's teeth a weapon which must be concealed?

Florida is now the latest state moving towards a ban, law makers have just begun the process in March, 2008 with Bill 101 and interestingly, since 1989 Miami-Dade County has banned the breed:

http://www.witntv.com/home/headlines/16732476.html

[Sandy]

As more lethal than most dogs, that's not surprising since they are kept away from people. However, if you look at the number of people killed by dog breeds you'll find much different data. That's what scares the he11 out of many people. It's the severity of the attacks.


As Sandy stated, Mastiffs (or English Mastiffs as they are better know) were not involved. Mastiffs are very large (males over 200 pounds are common) but they are very gentle. I had one and he was a great pet -- never bit or turned on anyone even when he was sick with cancer and in pain. For those who don't know the difference, I've attached a photo below (not of my dog).

Mastiffs (English Mastiffs) are often called gentle giants. The ones that I have met seem to exemplify that. They were almost unique in the shelter that I used to walk dogs in that it was not unusual to see a Mastiff ( if a Mastiff was at the shelter which was not very often) completely relaxed or asleep with dogs in adjacent cages growling, barking, or acting aggressively towards one another.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Obviously, I understand your thoughts about pits. If I was in certain areas in which pits run loose, owners are irresponisble, and actually want their pits to be aggressive, I would be genuinely tremendously stressed and probably petrified if I saw 3 or 4 pits running towards me (or my dog). I clearly understand their abilities and propensities. No one ever knows about their dog as they are still animals and pits certainly were bred to fight other dogs. I respect the image that pits have, try to understand the pit breeds, and most importantly give my dog love, affection, warmth, and sensitivity while I simultaneously try to teach him acceptable behavior. I monitor absolutely everything that he does and I am ALWAYS with him whenever he goes outside, even in my back yard which has a new fence and locked gates. If he is ever seen outside my property, I am ALWAYS with him. He will be seen with a collar, 3 tags, and a harness. Attached to that harness will be a Sandy using a 6 foot leash. I do not alllow children or dogs to come close to King, although at the shelter recently he was in a room with a ****-zu who belongs to a friend of mine who also has a pit among other dogs. King wanted to play with the other dog and was very good with her. King is normally quite affectionate to people.

I can only address my pit. I did not go to the shleter looking to adopt any dog, nor did I seek a pit in particular. He and I bonded and absolutely everyone on staff and many patrons who saw us interact wanted me to adopt King. King chose me and I chose King and my wife allowed me to bring him home.

The best I can do is to love him, treat him with kindness and sensitivity, be sure that he behaves in an aceptable manner, monitor what he does, supply him with the necessities of life, provide him with adequate exercise, play, and excellent medical care, and give him a caring home with minimum stress. I can't control what others do with their pits or dogs or how people perceive my dog or myself.



Sandy

[William]

As more lethal than most dogs, that's not surprising since they are kept away from people. However, if you look at the number of people killed by dog breeds you'll find much different data. That's what scares the he11 out of many people. It's the severity of the attacks.


As Sandy stated, Mastiffs (or English Mastiffs as they are better know) were not involved. Mastiffs are very large (males over 200 pounds are common) but they are very gentle. I had one and he was a great pet -- never bit or turned on anyone even when he was sick with cancer and in pain. For those who don't know the difference, I've attached a photo below (not of my dog).

We used to own an English Mastiff as well. See the "Serotta Dogs" thread. They are gentle giants. Ours was a brindle that topped out at about 210 pounds. Wonderful kids dog. My sister in-law breeds and shows them down in Texas.
The dogs involved in the San Francisco attack were considered a "mastiff" breed, a generic term applied to dogs that were bred from Mastiff bloodlines. The exact breed was the Presa Canario as Sandy pointed out. I couldn't remember the exact breed so I said "mastiff" knowing they were from those lines. Not the best choice of words in hindsight. Certainly could be confusing to some.
I can't despute the severity of attacks that a bully breed is capable of. There was also a time when Rottweiler’s were the dog of choice, at that time there were calls for their legislation due to increased bites and attacks. The Doberman also went through a similar phase. Unfortunately the trends follow whatever breed is most popular with irresponsible people of the day. The owners are the ones who need to be dealt with.


William

[A.L.Breguet]

I love it! thanks for the postmo.

[Sandy]

Not to worry. They're litter mates with such different personalities. Allie tends to be a bit aggressive toward other dogs so long as she's on a leash connected to me. Toby, no aggressiveness whatsoever...he just wants to make nice. It's funny...when we're at the dog park, Allie has no aggressive tendencies toward other dogs at all when she's running loose. It's just while she's on the leash and thinking I'm going to protect her or something. I can't figure it out.

Kevin g

I will give it a try, with the understanding that I have never trained any dog. I have taken my dog to 3 obedience lessons thus far and that is totality of my personal involvement in training.

You must realize that Allie is not the only one on the leash, but there is the person at the other end of the leash- you. Allie reacts not only to another dog but to the input that you give Allie through the leash and verbally, probably without you even realizing how much what you do on one end of the leash influences what Allie does on the other. If you get frustrated/aggravated/upset when she starts aggressive actions on the leash, then you probably let her know that by pulling back on the leash, raising your voice (really loud maybe), scolding her,.....The problem with that is that instead of helping the situation that simply reinforces it since Allie on the other end realizes that you are also excited and hence that is ok to keep up the aggression because you are upset and acting rather wildly yourself. So what you might want to do is act calmly and quietly and not tug back at the leash but try to get Allie to adopt a new acceptable behavior to replace the old one (aggressive action on the leash). Now I have never really tried this, but have read about this very briefly. Have Allie on a leash and have someone you know walk their dog towards Allie from the opposite direction)to the point that she starts toget uneasy and aggressive but not at that point. Have her favorite treat and reward her for her silence and lack of aggressive activity. Praise her or whatever works positively for her. Then have your friend bring the dog a little closer to Allie (from the opposite direction) and do the reward/praise thing again. Do this over time, with small incremental steps. The object is to eliminate the aggressive behavior and replace it with an acceptable behavior- No longer being aggressive on the leash when Allie sees another dog but actually looking forward to meeting a dog as it brings something good to Allie. Maybe one time Allie was aggressive on the leash towards another dog and she read from your actions on the leash that her being aggressive was the correct thing to do. Don't punish Allie for a non acceptable action, but use positive reinforcement to replace the old behavior by a new acceptble one.

The above is a possible approach to the problem.

I must add that if I am incorrect above and you decide to sue me because of my stupidity and lack of effectiveness in solving or helping in this situation and want us to go to see Judge Judy about the issue, I already give up. I will just send you a check for what you want as I know that between you and your wife, I will be a really big loser!! :rolleyes: :D


Sandy

[Sandy]

We used to own an English Mastiff as well. See the "Serotta Dogs" thread. They are gentle giants. Ours was a brindle that topped out at about 210 pounds. Wonderful kids dog. My sister in-law breeds and shows them down in Texas.
The dogs involved in the San Francisco attack were considered a "mastiff" breed, a generic term applied to dogs that were bred from Mastiff bloodlines. The exact breed was the Presa Canario as Sandy pointed out. I couldn't remember the exact breed so I said "mastiff" knowing they were from those lines. Not the best choice of words in hindsight. Certainly could be confusing to some.
I can't despute the severity of attacks that a bully breed is capable of. There was also a time when Rottweiler’s were the dog of choice, at that time there were calls for their legislation due to increased bites and attacks. The Doberman also went through a similar phase. Unfortunately the trends follow whatever breed is most popular with irresponsible people of the day. The owners are the ones who need to be dealt with.


William

William smart. William very smart. William knows his dogs. The Presa Canario/Canary Dog breed ancestry probably includes the now- extinct local breed ,the Bardino-Majero (which I never heard of) crossed with imported English Mastiffs. Dobermans and Rottweillers were the dogs of choice before and now pit bulls. Eliminate pit bulls and you will probably see an increase in Presa Canarios and Argentine Dogos or other dogs similar to them. Irresponsible people with sinister ideas will get a dog for their purpose, whatever the breed happens to be.


Sandy

[M.Sommers]

The best I can do is to love him, treat him with kindness and sensitivity, be sure that he behaves in an aceptable manner, monitor what he does, supply him with the necessities of life, provide him with adequate exercise, play, and excellent medical care, and give him a caring home with minimum stress. I can't control what others do with their pits or dogs or how people perceive my dog or myself.



Sandy

Good words and very true. All you can do is make your dog an example of what is right. It is a sad shame the breed can 'snap'; a nice dog with a warm tempermant can explode and when it does, it's ugly. The San Francisco attack (different breed) killed the young lady in her apartment building, that young lady graduated from my high school...those dogs were on a leash and 'snapped'. It was a very high profile case, it was very sad.

It's nice to hear and see how much love you have for your dog and how he's been a great example of a good dog finding a good home. There is nothing like a good dog.

[onekgguy]

Sandy,

I believe that your suggestions are the way to go. I've watched the Dog Whisperer enough to know that it's usually the owner who is at fault and not the animal. I've tried several different approaches with Allie but none have worked. Funny that Toby is so different and he's receiving the same input as Allie. ??

Kevin g

[M.Sommers]

I watched the video again. I might be a bit of a hard arse, but you know what? I might, if I were Judge Sommers, I might suggest to the Jones family that maybe...child protective services should knock on their door. Yep, you treat a dog that way, rationalize in such bizarre behavior, I wonder if CPS shouldn't do some digging. It would help set those parents straight (cause I don't think the Jones couple learned a darn thing from that court case).

[Sandy]

Sandy,

I believe that your suggestions are the way to go. I've watched the Dog Whisperer enough to know that it's usually the owner who is at fault and not the animal. I've tried several different approaches with Allie but none have worked. Funny that Toby is so different and he's receiving the same input as Allie. ??

Kevin g

Unfortunately, I don't get the Dog Whisperer on my cable. I should get a tape of his or one of his books. Many people think that he is fantastic. I recently went to a Pit 101 discussion given by a woman who owns 2 pits and is a dog trainer. She mentioned that she did not like his approach at all. I wish I knew more about his training of dogs. I think there is the sequence of discipline, exercise, affection or something like that. I might be missing one in the sequence. You obviously know what he suggests.


Sandy

[benb]

The thing about Presa Canarios is if you do a web search quite a few of the breeders are actively advertising that they're trying really hard to breed them to be deadly.

Just read between the lines and look up the breed history.. what they are breeding now is not necessarily directly connected to the historical breed, and they're basically trying to breed a super aggressive deadly dog that is 3x the size/weight of a pit bull.

This will be the next out of control super dangerous dog that is in the hands of all the irresponsible wannabe gangster/dog-owners.

Just like Pit-Bulls.. it can be hard to believe the responsible owners/breeders are more influential then the irresponsible ones.

Just like the claims that pit bulls were such great american family dogs in years past.. was that an urban thing? How much "protection" were they using the dogs for back then? Is it documented? 100 years ago the country was far more rural and agrarian and a pit bull appears to be a useless dog for a farmer/hunter/rancher. And wasn't dog fighting legal 100 years ago? Heck Cock Fighting is still legal in some areas of the United States.

[M.Sommers]

The thing about Presa Canarios is if you do a web search quite a few of the breeders are actively advertising that they're trying really hard to breed them to be deadly.

Just read between the lines and look up the breed history.. what they are breeding now is not necessarily directly connected to the historical breed, and they're basically trying to breed a super aggressive deadly dog that is 3x the size/weight of a pit bull.

This will be the next out of control super dangerous dog that is in the hands of all the irresponsible wannabe gangster/dog-owners.

Just like Pit-Bulls.. it can be hard to believe the responsible owners/breeders are more influential then the irresponsible ones.

Just like the claims that pit bulls were such great american family dogs in years past.. was that an urban thing? How much "protection" were they using the dogs for back then? Is it documented? 100 years ago the country was far more rural and agrarian and a pit bull appears to be a useless dog for a farmer/hunter/rancher. And wasn't dog fighting legal 100 years ago? Heck Cock Fighting is still legal in some areas of the United States.

+1

[Sandy]

Pits were never bred to protect anything. They were bred to fight dogs but to be handled easily by people. Professional breeders who care about their breed do not want their dogs to become popular, because that produces indiscriminate breeding which hurts the breed by breeding dogs that possess unwanted physical and behavioral characteristics that the professional breeder trys to eliminate or control. Too many people breeding pits for money and for fighting. So who wins? As you say, it is not the responsible owners/breeders. Labs are said to be the most popular breed in the US and then Golden Retrievers, I believe. That is probably determined by dogs registered on some lists. But my guess, and it is just a guess, is that pits are exceptionally popular and often more poular than those dogs in certain urban areas. Go to a shelter in a big city and you will probably see more pits than any other breed. I heard recently that 1 in 600 pits survive. The rest are euthanized.

Who wins in the pit bull scenario? The owners with evil uses for the dogs. Who loses? Dogs and cats that are killed by pits. People who are bit/mauled by pits or terrorized by them , and what is normally not even stated- pit bulls themselves, probably the most horrendously treated dogs in our country. I have considered whether I would ban the breed ever, and my thoughts were on the poor pits themselves that often live such horrible lives. If there were many less pits, there would be many less horrifically mistreated dog.

I know some pit bull owners. Their pits are truly wonderful dogs.They own multiple breeds of dogs. They are amazingly wonderful and caring dog owners. I have seen many pit owners like them. But undoubtedly there are many many more pit owners who should nver own a pit or probably any other dog.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I really want you to one day meet my dog. Maybe he will temper your thoughts about pits a tiny tiny bit.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Good words and very true. All you can do is make your dog an example of what is right. It is a sad shame the breed can 'snap'; a nice dog with a warm tempermant can explode and when it does, it's ugly. The San Francisco attack (different breed) killed the young lady in her apartment building, that young lady graduated from my high school...those dogs were on a leash and 'snapped'. It was a very high profile case, it was very sad.

It's nice to hear and see how much love you have for your dog and how he's been a great example of a good dog finding a good home. There is nothing like a good dog.

Thanks for the comments.

About the San Francisco attack, please see my post about it in this thread- #33. That was hardly a case in which the dogs just snapped. That was a disaster waiting to happen- There were many instances prior to the attack that indicated these dogs were aggressive. The owners were remarkably irresponsible and undoubtedly had little control of the dogs. The entire history of the people involved and how they obtained the dogs is in itself rather bizzare.

I wonder how many instances occur in which a dog simply snaps. I think much less frequently than you imagine. I think that most often it is a process that occurs over time and not at any specific incident in time. I have handled probably at least 500 or more pits at a local shelter and there was never a time that one of these dogs (stressed at being at the shelter) ever made any aggressive moves towards me (with the exception of one possibly) and some of them were undoubtedly mistreated dogs. The one in question was one that I took out that I knew that I probably should not prior to taking him out. He got a little out of hand and started jumping up and grabbing at my jacket with his teeth. I very carefully and slowly moved toward the entrance to the shelter and went in. Came back a bit later with my leash, which I always carry with me (had let him off the leash) and took him in. Poor judgement on my part. I knew better to take him out.

I always found pits at the shelter to easily be one of the most people oriented and affectionate dogs and the one which was clearly the most aggressive to other dogs.


Sandy

[RPS]

I've tried several different approaches with Allie but none have worked. Funny that Toby is so different and he's receiving the same input as Allie. ??

Kevin gNot unexpected -- at least to me. Much of our temperament and behavior is genetic. In my case my temperament is much like my dad's, my brother's much like my mom's. We were raised in the same household and treated very similar.

I'll keep my distance from Pits at all cost. My brother "had" one for a while and it had a psycho look in his eyes -- I could never trust him. I was not alone in that many family members stop visiting because of the dog; forcing him to finally get rid of him.

[Sandy]

Not unexpected -- at least to me. Much of our temperament and behavior is genetic. In my case my temperament is much like my dad's, my brother's much like my mom's. We were raised in the same household and treated very similar.

I'll keep my distance from Pits at all cost. My brother "had" one for a while and it had a psycho look in his eyes -- I could never trust him. I was not alone in that many family members stop visiting because of the dog; forcing him to finally get rid of him.

I have a psycho look in my eyes. Would you visit me?? :) :)


Sandy

[RPS]

The thing about Presa Canarios is if you do a web search quite a few of the breeders are actively advertising that they're trying really hard to breed them to be deadly.This is the real problem regardless of the breed. As long as there is a perceived need some breeder will raise the dogs. I’m not sure if legislation will work, but the approach taken in Texas may be the best to balance freedom of ownership and protection of the public.

Make the owner responsible to a greater degree for dog attacks and punish accordingly.

[RPS]

I have a psycho look in my eyes. Would you visit me?? :) :)


SandyDo you bite? Have you had your shots?

[Sandy]

Do you bite? Have you had your shots?

I bit the vet....I mean the doctor....after I got my shots. So you are half safe from me. :rolleyes: :)


Sandy

[malcolm]

I would like to see the data that supports dog bite as the number one reason for pediatric visits to the emergency room. Ancedotally we see a bunch of dog bites but the number one reason for peds visits, not in my experience. I suspect I see about 100 uri's for every dog bite.

[King]

This is the real problem regardless of the breed. As long as there is a perceived need some breeder will raise the dogs. I’m not sure if legislation will work, but the approach taken in Texas may be the best to balance freedom of ownership and protection of the public.

Make the owner responsible to a greater degree for dog attacks and punish accordingly.

If I recall correctly, the demand for Presa Canario dogs, the breed that attacked and killed Diane Whipple in San Francisco in 2001, went up 10 fold immediately after the incident.

The problem, relative to your statement about punishment of the owners and responsibility, is that the dogs receive the punishment and the owners normally receive very little or no punishment. The owner's dog may be seized and/or euthanized and the owner just goes out and gets one or more to replace the dog. Doesn't make any real sense to me.


Sandy

[King]

I would like to see the data that supports dog bite as the number one reason for pediatric visits to the emergency room. Ancedotally we see a bunch of dog bites but the number one reason for peds visits, not in my experience. I suspect I see about 100 uri's for every dog bite.

By uri's I am assuming that you mean upper respiratory infections. Are you an ER doctor? Emergency medicine must be an amazing field to be in. Requires such a diversity of knolwedge in so many fields of medicine.


Sandy

[M.Sommers]

If I recall correctly, the demand for Presa Canario dogs, the breed that attacked and killed Diane Whipple in San Francisco in 2001, went up 10 fold immediately after the incident.

The problem, relative to your statement about punishment of the owners and responsibility, is that the dogs receive the punishment and the owners normally receive very little or no punishment. The owner's dog may be seized and/or euthanized and the owner just goes out and gets one or more to replace the dog. Doesn't make any real sense to me.


Sandy

Sadly, the increase for any dog who had just killed and mauled a young woman (Diane Whipple from Northport, NY) only shows how dumb Americans can be, they buy anything from an infomercial which catches their eyes (and that case was startling). Really, was does it say that sales for a breed of dogs who just killed a young woman...increased after the case ended?

Also, I posted several links to (very current) stories where the owner of a pit bull, a dog who attacked, was sent to jail. In fact, this trend has been taking place for quite some time, February 17th, 1990:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4DF1430F934A25751C0A9669582 60

And more common in recent days, the trend is growing:

3/29/08:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/national/main1453798.shtml

9/24/2004:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3758367/detail.html

3/31/2006:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-143912883.html

4/26/2007:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-138432096.html

10/23/2001:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-79415447.html

4/25/2007:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5876940.html

3/20/2003:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-3334698.html

8/23/2007:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/13962530/detail.html

8/30/2005:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1587795.html

[RPS]

The problem, relative to your statement about punishment of the owners and responsibility, is that the dogs receive the punishment and the owners normally receive very little or no punishment. The owner's dog may be seized and/or euthanized and the owner just goes out and gets one or more to replace the dog. Doesn't make any real sense to me.


SandySandy, my limited understanding of the Texas law is that the owner will be charged with the crime as if he had killed the person himself/herself.

The goal is to let owners have Pits or any other breed but they need to be responsible or they will do serious jail time. As a cyclist I'm all for it.

[Sandy]

Sandy, my limited understanding of the Texas law is that the owner will be charged with the crime as if he had killed the person himself/herself.

The goal is to let owners have Pits or any other breed but they need to be responsible or they will do serious jail time. As a cyclist I'm all for it.

As a dog lover, dog owner, pit owner, and cyclist, I am absolutely for it.


Sandy

[M.Sommers]

In today's news, a woman BITE a pitbull's nose in order to save her own dog from a deadly attack.

Pitbulls are totally safe and Mayor Vaughn from JAWS was totally cool. :rolleyes:

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=6208898&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g0iGdl3WJ8aOKXvjLvbGN5FtTGCAD8VQE8B80


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Poll
Should 'dangerous' dog breeds be banned in Minnesota?


Yes, it's worth the price to avoid another dog mauling.

No, owners should be held accountable for their dog's behavior.


.

[Ginger]

Why has this thread devolved from a discussion of an incident that involved a cyclist/forum member and a dog (that was I believe a lab?) to a discussion of pit bulls?

I'm not saying that we should squelch the discussion of dangerous dogs and their idiot owners, or that there are only bad owners not bad dogs.

But c'mon guys. You've beat this dead horse before. You each have your own side to the discussion and neither one of you is going to cross over to the other side and that's cool.

I can say that while I have been charged by a pit on a bike...they don't run far. That's not their game. I've been chased on a bike by far more labs, German shepards, and aussie heelers....OH...and cocker spaniels, than by pit bulls.

I'd rather see both of you post links for the advocacy and legal groups you financially support (or volunteer for) who are trying to legislate dog attacks and educate owners, than to watch you two argue about how bad pit bulls are or aren't.

[Sandy]

I assume that you are talking partially about me. I have posted 25 times in this thread, including this post. I just quickly looked at my posts. About 20 or so of them were not about pit bull breeds any more than any other breeds. The very large majority of my posts don't even mention pit bulls. Please reread them and you will see. I responded to a few comments about pit bulls. Most of my comments were about dog owner responsibility, the initial post, or silly little jokes.

Please see how many of my 25 posts are directly about pit bulls.


Sandy

PS- I would think that herding dogs such as shepherds and heelers would chase a great deal more than pits.