Ride hard or ride fast?

[Ti Designs]

Nobody seems to understand the difference.

Here's the thing: I teach my riders that fast paceline rides are just like doing intervals. They sit on the front for maybe 30 seconds, which is how long they can hold zone 5 (above AT), then they rotate off and sit in to recover. The speed of the group stays way higher than any one individual could sustain. This makes sense, right? Every group ride I've been on this year there, when the pace starts to pick up there are riders who want to sit on the front for 10 minutes. Nobody's holding zone 5 for that long, so the speed drops down and everybody else in the paceline (well, the ones who know how to draft) are tapping their fingers on the bars waiting for this guy to pull off. When they get to a hill someone who's been sitting in the paceline attacks and the guy who's been pulling the whole time gets dropped. They think this is a fast ride 'cause they're working hard (at least when they're on the front or going up a hill).

I use myself as a gauge of a ride. I'm old, fat, slow and on a 27 pound rusty fixed gear with tractor tires. Any good paceline should send me off the back or at least have me wheezing and ticket punching at the back. They don't. They're riding hard, but not going very fast. It's not their fitness, it's got nothing to do with form or technique, it's not about the bikes or the wheels or the bars. It's because guys can't think while wearing lycra. I try to set an example, I'll tell 'em to keep the pulls short and intense. Then I'll move to the front, take a 30 second pull and swing off. 10 minutes later the guy who was on my wheel is still on the front.

On the Boston rides thread the Wednesday morning Harvard ride was called the world championships - they're not, they're a good paceline ride which has brought up a number of top riders. The stronger riders even drop back to pull gapped riders back in. It's simply not a ride you can take 10 minute pulls on. The rule is hold the pace and leave someting in the legs for getting back on at the back. It's riding fast, but it's no harder.




Go ahead, flame away - I'm in the mood for BBQ!

[A.L.Breguet]

Smarter is always better than harder. Atleast with racing and working.

[R2D2]

OK
When I could ride at those speeds, our pace line always had some discipline and would establish and commuincate a guidline like 60 second pulls,
If someone was up front too long people would tell them to pull off.

[e-RICHIE]

atmo it's all (and only) about leg speedmo.

[Tom]

People sometimes are not terribly confident so they think they have to 'do their part'. They think that if they swing off quickly they'll be accused of wheel sucking.

You may need to tell people it's OK to do that. Saying it in terms of intervals doesn't help as much, some people think that the longer the interval the better.

[Fixed]

brave little toaster
imho
cheers

[Ti Designs]

If someone was up front too long people would tell them to pull off.

Problem is that I'm the minority. I take a good 30 second pull, as I'm drifing back I hear a very sarcastic "nice pull". I start yelling at the guy in the front to pull off and they're thinking "why? I'm working hard up here".

[J.Greene]

Ti,

why do you keep banging your head against the wall? It says more about you than it does them.

JG

[A.L.Breguet]

lots o guys like the sharp pull, too, where they basically attack every time they take the front of the paceline. If the goal is a paceline and not a solo, gotta match the speed of the previous puller, then gradually up the rate during your pull.

[Big Daddy]

OK
When I could ride at those speeds, our pace line always had some discipline and would establish and commuincate a guidline like 60 second pulls,
If someone was up front too long people would tell them to pull off.
+1

if it isn't established at the beginning, then someone (me) will rotate through with directions

[e-RICHIE]

it's threads like this that make me thankful i never do, or
have ever done, group rides atmo. hey - thanks for reading.




ps
arrange disorder
:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:) :p ;)

[R2D2]

Problem is that I'm the minority. I take a good 30 second pull, as I'm drifing back I hear a very sarcastic "nice pull". I start yelling at the guy in the front to pull off and they're thinking "why? I'm working hard up here".

I hear ya.
There are a lot of unseasoned riders that don't understand how to wind the pace line up. Staying out too long is one problem. There are plenty of others.
Surge off the front. Unable to maintain a line. The pedal and coast yo-yo. The collapse on a hill.
The biggest problem I encounter is "If you can't ride faster than me then your
advice is no good" attitude.

[Fixed]

it's threads like this that make me thankful i never do, or
have ever done, group rides atmo. hey - thanks for reading.




ps
arrange disorder
:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:) :p ;)

wow that is something ..I like to ride when I like to ride too
cheers

[stevep]

if yr the teacher
its yr fault.
if yr not the teacher why do the ride and aggravate yrself?

the students are out of control.

they either:
do not understand whst they're doing= yr fault
or they do but refuse to do it= yr fault

make them rotate right off the front. easier to control.
easier to explain. only works in group of 10 or less.
no pulls by anyone.

[keno]

Coincidentally, at yesterday's indoor workout my coach had us doing 1' hard + 2' at 75% x 5, 3 sets, simulating at 3-man paceline. Gearing was 53x17, a bit light but helps in the ER leg speed category. His workouts are intended to simulate situations that will come up on the road or in a race.

I like the discipline of training and learning how the real deal do it with the volumes of all kinds turned way down. I'm no threat so I don't have to waste energy on macho.

keno

[Ti Designs]

if yr not the teacher why do the ride and aggravate yrself?

Speed. The guys who only train alone teach themselves to go at one speed. The group on average goes faster than that. If your goal is cross racing, one speed is fine. If you're racing with a pack it comes down to who can hang when the speed really picks up - that's what group training is all about.


they either:
do not understand whst they're doing= yr fault
or they do but refuse to do it= yr fault

I no longer have the luxury of coaching the whole group, I'm now working with individuals and bringing them into group rides. My riders get it (I took a group out on a day with 30MPH headwinds, they all got that drafting thing very quickly) but they're not getting the intended workout. The rest of the group thinks they're going so fast 'cause they're going so hard. Many of my riders are on fixed gears and keeping up just fine.

[Tom]

BTW, I've been checking out the ECCC stuff cause my brother's kid is at UVM and I noticed some of the Haahvaahd kids are doing pretty good.

You'd think the kid would tell me how he's doing but you can never tell from him. He says the same thing whether he kicks butt or gets run over by the group.

[Matt Barkley]

Last evening was the 6th "Goon Ride" of the year here in suburban MD and through Rock Creek in Washington, DC. There is a spirited paceline throughout the ride - depending a little on the horsepower that shows up. One of my first riding buddies for the early 90s showed up - his last group ride was maybe in 2001 or 2002. This friend of mine has more credentials on the track and road than anyone else on the ride. He is also 50 lbs more substantial than he was when he was racing.... He know how to ride. And he knows how to "do a pace line." He pulls through and rides a line perfectly. He looked better than any of us on the ride. After he drops off we talked about it and he couldn't believe how the guys pulling through surged at the front and after pulling off wouldn't feather pedal or deaccellerate at all!
I was taught and still believe a paceline should be "an accelerating pocket of air." That is the goal the contributors to the paceline should be attempting to create... smoothly....
If you are doing intervals - I believe they should occur outside the idea of a paceline. A paceline like its close relative the echelon should be smooth and aid everyone who is contributing to going faster.. If you want to attack the group and go off the front fine or sit off the back and surge - whatever - intervals are different. When you pull though, sure your effort is harder and HR/power will go up, but ideally it should be done smoothly. In Team Time Trial or hard paceline guys can pull harder of longer like the 30 seconds mentioned above - but it "should" ideally for the group still be relatively smooth.
:beer: Group rides can be a lot of fun. :beer: Pacelines too! Cheers - Matt

[johnnymossville]

One of the main reasons I ride bicycles rather than going to the court to play basketball, softball league, bowling league, etc,... is that I can be AWAY from people. I don't have anything against them though, I'd be happy to do one a week if I found the right group.

I'm not sure there's much of a training advantage to a group ride either. What can't I do on my own that I can do in a group? Ok, that sounds kinda kinky for a Friday. LOL

[J.Greene]

Responsibility for ones training comes down to the individual and maybe his or her coach,not a group atmo.

JG

[weisan]

ti-pal, it takes time to explain the heavenly things. some may never get it.

[girlie]

befriend two of the other riders......
get them on board and just gradually ride away from the group.
Have fun.

[WadePatton]

Over 20 years since I rode a paceline, but I remember...and with this refresher course threadmo, I think I could do it again.

thanks for the refresher, now if I had some riders...

[swoop]

it's threads like this that make me thankful i never do, or
have ever done, group rides atmo. hey - thanks for reading.




ps
arrange disorder
:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:) :p ;)

+10

if someone is pulling too slow you just come over them and put the pace where it should be. folks that don't know what to do up front aren't allowed up front because the slowing is dangerous for the according effect in back.
its driven by safety. there absolutely is a pecking order and its informed the currency of respect.
the group ride youre describing sounds mp.. and most of them are.. which is why they are no good for training.

[soulspinner]

it's threads like this that make me thankful i never do, or
have ever done, group rides atmo. hey - thanks for reading.




ps
arrange disorder
:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:) :p ;)


Apes on ego trips(incubus)

[Fat Robert]

Speed. The guys who only train alone teach themselves to go at one speed. The group on average goes faster than that. If your goal is cross racing, one speed is fine. If you're racing with a pack it comes down to who can hang when the speed really picks up - that's what group training is all about.
.


nope

i train solo 95% of the time

the bread and butter of this training cycle -- fartleks going from L3 to L5.

ex. :30 sprint 1:00 L3 for 30 min or so
2:00 at VO2+ pace, 3:00 L3
3:00 L3 pace, 5:00 L4 pace, 2:00 all-out (pretend you're cancellara on the via roma), for 30-40 min

the normalized power of these ends up being the same as a 30-40 min L4 effort (around 330w, for my lame butt), but the training effect is a whole lot different...more like what one does in a race...lots of time at L3, with repeated short but intense efforts over threshold...just takes some work ethic.


you can ride solo and simulate the power fluctuations of a race....

[swoop]

coach. you may know a lot of things but i don't think any of them have much to do with biking.

wanna work on speed.. and you're the coach... get off your bike and on a moped or open your hatchback and do some motor pacing. 5 guys going over thirty on the flats for an hour will help.

sprint drills can be done in mass.. but they happen from a dead start and in an easy gear and focus on leg speed and cadences over 150.

finding a downhill that has you cruising at 45 and doing sprint jumps from that helps with leg speed and get you acclimated to real speed and that wall of wind resistance that sprinter sometimes faces. (2 man, one leads out the other comes around).

lead out drills on a parkway teach teammates how to read eachothers leadouts and time them.. they don't give you speed.


learning leg speed gives you your jump.
intervals give you the ability to tolerate many jumps if various durations.

your coaching methods just create guys with bad training habits that ruin group rides.

90% of my speed work is done alone.

practice crits or training rides all all enjoyed with a specific task.. either trying to spin out an easy gear at a high speed, or trying to crack myself over and over but still 'win'. they become a less effective set of intervals when i'm not serious or just want some fun. no real training occurs there.

[jimcav]

instead, the rear guy comes up, and as soon as he passes the guy in front of him, that guy follows him, etc, so it is a fairly constant rotation where the guy who was pulling is in effect being forced to fall back on the right.
this is the luxury of little traffic roads.
no chance for a long pull.

jim

[Fixed]

wow bro there is more than one way to skin a cat small groups of friends are fun as long as your having fun that 's the main thing .but if you want to go 30+for any length of time motor pacing kicks it and you don't end up yelling at someone for not pulling through ..it's very hard to go into that painful place by yourself it's easy to say that is enough ..but in a group you can push through it a little more .I don't know if running over your tongue is very good for you though..
why do cats speed up when they go to the front?
tough cats i going show these guys how strong i am .. I like to let them sit there going hard for a couple of minutes then sprint after the tough cats tired bye bye tough cat .. but i'm kinda mean sometimes imho
cheers

[chrisroph]

yep butch, there are a lot of ways to ride and train and develop speed and endurance. group riding is certainly one way. but if everybody in the group is not on the same page there is always going to be somebody doing something that somebody else doesn't agree with, particularly if its just a random group of guys getting together.

[benb]

I was the one mentioning the harvard rides being fast at this time of year.. I didn't mean to imply they were bad in terms of pacelining skill. I only ever did the saturday morning one. It's just that February and March for most non-college riders is base training period.. the college students have the bulk of their racing season so early.. they were doing much harder rides at this point of the year.

I'm 100% in agreement with you.. though if the paceline is really kicking it even 30 seconds sounds like a long time to me.

Now that I'm in NH the local group ride is 1000x worse then anything I saw in MA in terms of not being able to ride a paceline.

[davids]

if yr the teacher
its yr fault.
if yr not the teacher why do the ride and aggravate yrself?

the students are out of control.

they either:
do not understand whst they're doing= yr fault
or they do but refuse to do it= yr fault

make them rotate right off the front. easier to control.
easier to explain. only works in group of 10 or less.
no pulls by anyone.This rings true to me.

Our little morning group is not very intense, but last year our "leader" suggested we start riding pacelines, and laid out guidelines very much in line with Ed's. And we had the exact same results - Some guys (always the guys) wanted to pull for 10 minutes.

Last week, our "leader" sent out an email to kick off our season, and suggesting that this year we ride pacelines and do some hill climbs with purpose. Everyone agreed it sounded great.

Our problem is that we're just a bunch of friends, out for a fun ride. We don't have a leader, we have a guy who rides more (and has more experience) than the rest of us. (That's why I used quotes above!)

Without actual conversation, I don't think we're going to resolve this issue. I'm planning to open my mouth sooner rather than later, so no one feels like they're getting singled out. We either need to agree that we're going to ride pacelines, with 30 second pulls, or that we're just riding around. Once we've got an agreement, anyone should be able to enforce it (and we're friendly enough so that a kind word should work.) Until we have the discussion, one side or the other is going to be getting increasingly frustrated.

[Ti Designs]

coach. you may know a lot of things but i don't think any of them have much to do with biking.

What's a bike?

90% of my speed work is done alone.

So it's safe to say you win most of those sprints?

[jeffg]

I need to work on my pacelining since I ride alone 99.8% of the time.

When I do ride in pacelines, it is normally on organized rides that are quite long 6-14 hours. For these rides I don't think riding 30 seconds at L5 and then peeling off, especially when there might be only 3 or 4 riders (except the Terrible Two on Silverado Trail, where there are always 20-30 folks). I try to ride 2 minutes at L4 and then rotate. The only time I do shorter and more intense pulls is trying to bridge to a larger group or in the last 20km if I still have anything left ... but I resemble Swoop's remark about knowing little to nothing about biking

[Ti Designs]

When I do ride in pacelines, it is normally on organized rides that are quite long 6-14 hours. For these rides I don't think riding 30 seconds at L5 and then peeling off, especially when there might be only 3 or 4 riders (except the Terrible Two on Silverado Trail, where there are always 20-30 folks). I try to ride 2 minutes at L4 and then rotate. The only time I do shorter and more intense pulls is trying to bridge to a larger group or in the last 20km if I still have anything left ... but I resemble Swoop's remark about knowing little to nothing about biking

Rides of that length are different, the emphasis switches from speed to economy, but the advantages of the draft remain the same. As the average speed drops the pulls can get longer. Could you imagine taking 30 second pulls for 6 hours?

[Grant McLean]

atmo it's all (and only) about leg speedmo.



I've never been a high cadence guy, but I'm going to take this advice and see what I can do, atmo.
This year i'm going to put a program together, and become a monster,
if it works, i'm buying you a coffee and bagel at the location of your choosing.



-g

[chrisroph]

Rides of that length are different, the emphasis switches from speed to economy, but the advantages of the draft remain the same. As the average speed drops the pulls can get longer. Could you imagine taking 30 second pulls for 6 hours?


A friend told me after he did the Rocky Mtn 1200 about a particularly nasty upwind stretch where he took a 40 mile pull and then let the guy he was riding with take his 40.

[roman meal]

I've never been a high cadence guy, but I'm going to take this advice and see what I can do, atmo.
This year i'm going to put a program together, and become a monster,
if it works, i'm buying you a coffee and bagel at the location of your choosing.



-g


He likes his cafe en Paris, si vous plait.

[Grant McLean]

He likes his cafe en Paris, si vous plait.

pas de problem.

-g

[jeffg]

Rides of that length are different, the emphasis switches from speed to economy, but the advantages of the draft remain the same. As the average speed drops the pulls can get longer. Could you imagine taking 30 second pulls for 6 hours?

I thought that was what I was saying, i.e. 2 minutes is more appropriate for longer rides, but I have no idea whether that's a good number or not ...

I don't like to imagine climbing Sierra Road after 150 miles and about 14,000 feet of climbing either, but that's the price of admission (and you get to pet a goat at the top)

[Ti Designs]

why do you keep banging your head against the wall? It says more about you than it does them.


My head is very hard and there's nothing of value in there, so...

Honestly, someone who's read my post is going to sit back in a paceline and watch what's going on and it's going to click. I have stevep working on a way of charging that person for my coaching advice.

[Fat Robert]

I've never been a high cadence guy, but I'm going to take this advice and see what I can do, atmo.
This year i'm going to put a program together, and become a monster,
if it works, i'm buying you a coffee and bagel at the location of your choosing.



-g

grantmo:

here's my this week's programo, it makes me a local legendmo who doesn't racemo. use at own riskmo.

(mo: random; random mo, mo random mo, moe: yo.)

Monday -- AM : 45 minutes on rollers 120+ rpm.
PM: 60 minutes. 5 minute warm up, then 45 minutes of riding in L3-4, with a 1:00-2:00 effort well into the red, over threshold, thrown in every minutes. Keep leg speed at 100 rpm + the whole way.

Tues -- rest

Wed -- same as Monday

Thurs -- PM: 90 minutes. 45 minute TT. nose on the stem. go really hard.

Fri -- PM: 70 minutes. :20-:30 attack, then 2:00 of tempo or L4. Do that for 40 minutes (should give you 16 hard efforts). Cadence 100+, hit 120 during the hard bits.

Sat -- rest

Sun -- same as Monday.

about 8 hours of riding, a lot of quality work, a lot of leg speed.

[jimp1234]

Ah, but you fail to understand the "real" reason for the 10 min. at the front pull. Basically when you're out of shape and/or being lazy you get to front, then almost inperceptably drop the speed a few clicks, but if you stay out in the wind a long time, (it helps to have the "grimace" game face on as well btw) you save face in the pack, in fact you may gain a few bonus points for being the tuff guy out in the wind for so long, while at the same time reducing overall group speed so its just like sitting in that ol' rocking chair...

:beer:


-Jim

[J.Greene]

Honestly, someone who's read my post is going to sit back in a paceline and watch what's going on and it's going to click.

I don't think so. In FL we have the same morons, they just have differnt names.

JG

[swoop]

What's a bike?



So it's safe to say you win most of those sprints?

i do pretty well in em. its tough when you've got national champs on and off the track, bahati, paul che, several team rock dudes, etc... but i get to see the sharp end if there isn't a real climb. i do get have my moments and yes i have gotten some of them. (and i can tell you with a straight face that i'm not very good and am well aware that i sound like a turd here... but i do good enough).


put four of your guys up front single file. take 2 minute or more pulls at threshold or above. have the last guy sweep the third guys wheel so the guy pulling off can slot in to keep the pace up.

it will make the ride hard, safe, fast, and be good for developing power and recovery.

[Grant McLean]

grantmo:

here's my this week's programo, it makes me a local legendmo who doesn't racemo. use at own riskmo.
.


thanks. will let y'all know how things progress.

:beer:

-g

[shinomaster]

if yr the teacher
its yr fault.
if yr not the teacher why do the ride and aggravate yrself?

the students are out of control.

they either:
do not understand whst they're doing= yr fault
or they do but refuse to do it= yr fault

make them rotate right off the front. easier to control.
easier to explain. only works in group of 10 or less.
no pulls by anyone.



Ti, what is the purpose of the group_ride? Is it to go as fast as possible, or to get a work out, or to teach paceline formation skills? If it's not a race does it matter how fast you go?

[VeloSlug]

I don't think so. In FL we have the same morons, they just have differnt names.

JG


+100,000.
They're in every state. They're everywhere!

Now if you'll excuse me, I must remove the seltzer that shot through my sinuses after reading your post...thanks for the afternoon laugh! Or was it snortle...

[Ti Designs]

Ti, what is the purpose of the group_ride? Is it to go as fast as possible, or to get a work out, or to teach paceline formation skills? If it's not a race does it matter how fast you go?

Being fast is more fun than being slow. When my girlfriend and I went to the Serotta [almost] open house last year she didn't want to go on the long ride on Saturday. It's not that she was afraid of the distance, she rides more miles than most people on this forum. She was afraid she wouldn't keep up. If she had done a few paceline rides she would have had no such fear. Less fear = more fun.

Few of my clients race, most of them just want to do better on group rides. I have this theory that any four guys together wearing lycra and riding bikes becomes a race - watch some time, you'll see. Giving them the ability to go faster on the bike is what they are asking of me.

If going faster, not just working harder doesn't matter to y'all, why do you have carbon aero wheels or ceramic bearings or any of that go-fast stuff? Skills and knowledge don't cost as much, and don't break when you hit a pothole.

[e-RICHIE]

Few of my clients race, most of them just want to do better on group rides.
it's all making sense nowmo.

[nm87710]

group training

OXYMORON??

[regularguy412]

OXYMORON

Well, sorta.

I'll agree that even the most dedicated riders/racers will have some difficulty 'matching' each other well enough on a group ride such that the effort will be within training limits for all the participants. People are just different and some do parts of the workouts 'better' than others.

However, I think there's a lot to be gained from routinely riding with a strong, fast group. If I want to maximize my training, I'll go do my 'own' workout alone. This is so that I make sure I get my goals accomplished. Then, later, I'll go pick up a ride with a group and just work on cadence and spinning. Being able to ride safely and efficiently when you're already tired is very important,, regardless of whether you're at the end of a race in a fast group, or just spinning along on your own at the end of a century. Riding that paceline properly and maintaining focus with your tongue hangin' out _CAN_ be learned, but it's kinda hard to do that when you're alone.

Mike in AR:beer:

[shinomaster]

Being fast is more fun than being slow. When my girlfriend and I went to the Serotta [almost] open house last year she didn't want to go on the long ride on Saturday. It's not that she was afraid of the distance, she rides more miles than most people on this forum. She was afraid she wouldn't keep up. If she had done a few paceline rides she would have had no such fear. Less fear = more fun.

Few of my clients race, most of them just want to do better on group rides. I have this theory that any four guys together wearing lycra and riding bikes becomes a race - watch some time, you'll see. Giving them the ability to go faster on the bike is what they are asking of me.

If going faster, not just working harder doesn't matter to y'all, why do you have carbon aero wheels or ceramic bearings or any of that go-fast stuff? Skills and knowledge don't cost as much, and don't break when you hit a pothole.


Help me win a cross race!

[chrisroph]

Help me win a cross race!


race beginner women

or get a zank and ride tubulars and do Robert's workout but not too often cause it'll probably kill you

[J.Greene]

Few of my clients race, most of them just want to do better on group rides. I have this theory that any four guys together wearing lycra and riding bikes becomes a race - watch some time, you'll see. Giving them the ability to go faster on the bike is what they are asking of me.


Be the solution, not the problem.

JG

[Sasha18]

I like that this thread resembles a paceline, as everyone takes a strong pull at the front.

I don't really like paceline training. It rarely works with more than 4 people. Intervals are for individuals. Long miles are good for groups.

[fierte_poser]

Look at the pretty squirrelmo! Holy crap - I'm winning! :banana:

Just thought I would try out this paceline thing...

[shinomaster]

race beginner women

or get a zank and ride tubulars and do Robert's workout but not too often cause it'll probably kill you


Who you calling a beginner? I'll show you Zebra man!! What is Robert's workout? Does it involve napping?

[Too Tall]

if yr the teacher
its yr fault.
if yr not the teacher why do the ride and aggravate yrself?

the students are out of control.

they either:
do not understand whst they're doing= yr fault
or they do but refuse to do it= yr fault

make them rotate right off the front. easier to control.
easier to explain. only works in group of 10 or less.
no pulls by anyone.
I could ride with this StevP guy.

For real Ed. You are the boss or not. Sometimes it's takes a few good words before the ride. This is generally well actually never an issue on my team rides....infact it's never an issue on the new shops sunday group rides (almost none race) or on the sat. race team rides...cause we have a sheriff. It works. A good example, two weekends ago on our tream camp ride one of the cat2's wanted to sit on the front...he drifted back and aske permission to hold a fast pace he wanted the work...reply was "no problem but don't make me find the front". Nuff said.

Work it out my man.

[e-RICHIE]

Work it out my man.
Joshpedia 18.1 atmo -

[chrisroph]

Who you calling a beginner? I'll show you Zebra man!! What is Robert's workout? Does it involve napping?


dude--i'm not calling you a beginner, i think you haul the mail. i just provided two separate strategies that could lead to victory, one involving a beginner women's field, and the containing sage advice concerning equipment selection and workout strategy. doof's workout is posted above somewhere.

[Fixed]

yep butch, there are a lot of ways to ride and train and develop speed and endurance. group riding is certainly one way. but if everybody in the group is not on the same page there is always going to be somebody doing something that somebody else doesn't agree with, particularly if its just a random group of guys getting together.

you are so wise bro
cheers :beer:

[Ti Designs]

I no longer have the luxury of coaching the whole group, I'm now working with individuals and bringing them into group rides. My riders get it (I took a group out on a day with 30MPH headwinds, they all got that drafting thing very quickly) but they're not getting the intended workout. The rest of the group thinks they're going so fast 'cause they're going so hard. Many of my riders are on fixed gears and keeping up just fine.

For real Ed. You are the boss or not. Sometimes it's takes a few good words before the ride. This is generally well actually never an issue on my team rides....infact it's never an issue on the new shops sunday group rides (almost none race) or on the sat. race team rides...cause we have a sheriff. It works. A good example, two weekends ago on our tream camp ride one of the cat2's wanted to sit on the front...he drifted back and aske permission to hold a fast pace he wanted the work...reply was "no problem but don't make me find the front".

OK, now I'm banging my head against the wall...

So what you're saying is that I need to rip the legs off of people who sit on the front too long - I can do that. When's the next forum gathering?

[e-RICHIE]

OK, now I'm banging my head against the wall...

good. continue.
we'll be back on monday.

[DarrenCT]

Who you calling a beginner? I'll show you Zebra man!! What is Robert's workout? Does it involve napping?

how about my workout? it involves lots of beer drinking with the odd trip to the strip joint. ohhh wait.. thats what happened in portland ;)

[shinomaster]

how about my workout? it involves lots of beer drinking with the odd trip to the strip joint. ohhh wait.. thats what happened in portland ;)

Darren your pedals are on the way...Sorry I flaked so long!

[shinomaster]

Hey Ed..click on the head. Rats, doesn't work...check out Zank's blog..

[DarrenCT]

Darren your pedals are on the way...Sorry I flaked so long!

npz! tell the wife i said hi. fun time in PT. get ur ass down to CT anytimemo

[roman meal]

Darren your pedals are on the way...Sorry I flaked so long!


Did Darren leave his pedals at the strip joint? Thats unusual.

[Fixed]

ride is a car with a bullhorn
imho
cheers :beer:

[DarrenCT]

Did Darren leave his pedals at the strip joint? Thats unusual.

i actually left my ID at the bar. good thing Sacha knew where the bar wuz

ps: can u get arrested to being drunk on a bike?

[shinomaster]

i actually left my ID at the bar. good thing Sacha knew where the bar wuz

ps: can u get arrested to being drunk on a bike?


Yes, and they would beat you. Hey Chrisroph, do you mean I'm slow like the U.S. Mail?? Or fast like Priority?

[chrisroph]

Yes, and they would beat you. Hey Chrisroph, do you mean I'm slow like the U.S. Mail?? Or fast like Priority?

you fast but don't know it.

[shinomaster]

you fast but don't know it.
My race results don't show it. Maybe I should race road instead.

[DarrenCT]

My race results don't show it. Maybe I should race road instead.

you'll be faster on that zank for sure

[shinomaster]

Maybe I'm just too shy to race cross?

[chrisroph]

My race results don't show it. Maybe I should race road instead.

we've got to get your mind right

[shinomaster]

we've got to get your mind right

I'm depraved, and that will never change.

[chrisroph]

I'm depraved, and that will never change.

you make light of it but i seriously think that with your aerobic capacity you only need a few tweaks--some of the attitudinal--and you can compete for top 5's the B's.

drink the cool aid.

and for a little history of the genesis of the mind right phrase, watch this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO3aWRUmoSs&feature=related

[Too Tall]

OK, now I'm banging my head against the wall...

So what you're saying is that I need to rip the legs off of people who sit on the front too long - I can do that. When's the next forum gathering?

Oh I see, now it makes sense. Me dense. So what you are saying is you have zero control of the group other than your cats and have no choice but to add to the f'd up id ness of the situation? Better choice, find a new venue or start your own. If these cats don't race and you want to dev. skills and abilities under your esteemed tutelage I am REAL certain there are folks who will appreciate the structure. The tone and tenor of group rides once ingrained is f'in hard to modify. MOVE ON.

GASP! I know you would not pick on a weak, pathetic guy like me right? I'm old for g-d sake, you heathen. FLUX takes my lightweight work. ;) xxoo, TT.

[giordana93]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but would add:
1. some of these guys might actually appreciate learning how to ride a good line and just don't know what to do, because no one has ever told them. So you need to tell them, at least your guys. when they discover the joys of a well-oiled pace line just flying, they'll get it.
2. I like the old fashioned "count the pedal strokes" method. Tell them a 50 stroke pull is about right, 100 is as long as they should be in front of a larger group, then get off, and don't slow down too much (and of course, don't surge when it's your time at the front)
3. when someone is blocking at the front, that's what it is: blocking,just like in a race. anyone behind should feel free to overtake the doofus slowing things down and bring a new line behind them. after getting passed like that a few times, (again, not an attack, just overtaken), they should get the message. if they don't, that's when it's time to signal a couple of guys behind you that you're gonna jump and bring them with you, and then you guys can give a lesson of team time trial. that's the point at which my fat old turd self shows them you can just pull through and do NO time at the front or sit at the back cause I'm gassed.
of course, I mainly ride alone these days, because of my schedule, and can barely hold the wheel of anyone even remotely fit, but it does drive me crazy at larger group rides that end up exactly like what you describe in the opening. then the pace is slow enough that you can actually tell the guys how to do it right, though

[Fat Robert]

yo shino

try this

borderline weather today, so i rode inside. i thought, well, if i'm inside, the only justification for this is that i'm doing something that would be impossible to do outside, because of the environmental variables.

so

the laundry room points race

5 min warm up 95 rpm

30 minutes like this: 3x 3 min @ 120 rpm, HR 140-145
5 min @ 125 rpm HR 145-155 (LT is 155-ish)
2 min @ 135 rpm HR 155+

10 minutes like this: 1 minute @ 120 rpm HR 140-145
1 minute @ 140 rpm HR 155-160

5 x :20 sprints, seated, 120+ rpm in big gear, :40 rest

5 min cool down


do these and get the head right and you'll be a shinomonster

[shinomaster]

yo shino

try this

borderline weather today, so i rode inside. i thought, well, if i'm inside, the only justification for this is that i'm doing something that would be impossible to do outside, because of the environmental variables.

so

the laundry room points race

5 min warm up 95 rpm

30 minutes like this: 3x 3 min @ 120 rpm, HR 140-145
5 min @ 125 rpm HR 145-155 (LT is 155-ish)
2 min @ 135 rpm HR 155+

10 minutes like this: 1 minute @ 120 rpm HR 140-145
1 minute @ 140 rpm HR 155-160

5 x :20 sprints, seated, 120+ rpm in big gear, :40 rest

5 min cool down


do these and get the head right and you'll be a shinomonster



Do I really need a HEART rate monitor? I don't have one.