stuff breaks 2.0

[A.L.Breguet]

check your bars, stem, steerer,... often.

[Smiley]

Thats from all the effort you put in last fall at Chez keno killing us chasing you. WOW seriously how many miles on those bars ?

[dnades]

Are you still in one piece? Hope so....

[giordana93]

note too that they're alloy. so much for the "I'll never use carbon bars because they break" argument (just to wake up that beaten to death old argument). they don't even appear to be particularly thin-walled either. yikes. had they ever been crashed? I've never broken bars, must be scary! That stem, on the other hand, does look like it would concentrate bending forces exactly at the point of the break.

[BURCH]

Holy....

I assume that you are ok since you didn't mention anything? That could have been bad if it happened on a fast descent while cornering.

[Too Tall]

He's typing with one toe :( A.L.B is not one to complain. Speedy recovery my friend :)

[dvs cycles]

What bar and stem combo?
How old/how many miles?

[Grant McLean]

ouch.

Computer mount must have hid the crack.
I don't think that happened all at once.
Remember folks, don't ignore those creaking noises!


-g

[Fixed]

bro did it talk to you saying i hurt ..what grant said
I do hope you are okay cannondales are good race bikes
cheers

[fixednwinter]

Yeow!! Hope you're OK!! Did you crash this before.

Regards,
Marco

[regularguy412]

Is it just me, or does the bar look a little egg-shaped at the failure point? Could the clamp not have been just right for the bar and put undue stress on it, causing it to finally fail?

I suppose the actual failure could cause what looks like an abnormal shape. I bet Cannondale or the bar/ stem manufacturer would like those pieces back for some testing. They might even send you a replacement. Never hurts to ask.

Mike in AR :beer:

[rwsaunders]

That photo makes me hurt. Hope all is well with your chest wound and new bars.

[Blue Jays]

Unreal. :eek:
Hope you're OK and this happened while in the workstand, trainer, or some other "non-moving" place.

[stormyClouds]

That stem, on the other hand, does look like it would concentrate bending forces exactly at the point of the break.
wondering what you mean by this. the stem design looks similar to most of the road stems that i have seen.
not dogging you, just curious as i want to avoid this potential problem (as we all do).

[bigbill]

I was doing a group ride in Oahu and during the last couple of miles I was riding next to a friend and I looked over and noticed something odd about his stem. It was a Ritchey but "Ritchey" on the side of the stem looked misaligned. He had a crack along the length of the stem all the way back to clamp at the steerer. No warning, no noise. Look at your stuff.

[Keith A]

What bar and stem combo?
How old/how many miles?I'd be curious to know this as well.

[avalonracing]

I would switch out my aluminum bars every 7-10K miles or so when I was racing/training. The cost of the bars vs. the pain if they fail makes it a no-brainer.

[manet]

help, i've fallen and can't get up
no wait, inappropriate response.
sorry.

dude, just loosen up the stem's face
and slide the bars right a bit... good
to go on the trainer.

[giordana93]

wondering what you mean by this. the stem design looks similar to most of the road stems that i have seen.
not dogging you, just curious as i want to avoid this potential problem (as we all do).
I'm not a materials sciences guy, much worse: a French professor (but my riding buddies at Cornell were all in mat-sci. phd's are written on these failure mechanisms), and I'm sure we have some engineering (or just experienced shop) guys to refute or support my amateur observation. It just looks like having that one, relatively narrow, band bear all the clamping force on one side is not as good as spreading it across a face plate (think psi: the fewer the inches the greater the pressure). Moreover, given that most bars have some kind of bulge in the middle, if the outer side were even just slightly smaller in diameter, there would be an imbalance between the inside and outside edges of the band, allowing the outside to "dig in" and anywhere you have that kind of stress riser situation will be bad. Try breaking some tiles by placing them on the edge of a table and see where the break occurs every time. But what do I know? post the pic on one of the more geeky forum sites and they'll go crazy with it!
Easton, as I recall, was against 4 bolt stems for similar reasons; I think the document is still on their site somewhere.

[stevep]

i thk a major problem is improper attachment.
guys do it themselves, torque the bolts wrong..the bars slip...
they are at that point destroyed due to the big notch caused by the slippage...
well, nobody wants to throw out a new ( but ruined ) set of bars...
so they use them and bango...trouble ahead.

not saying this was what happened here but its been seen a lot.

its always better to pay someone if you dont know how to do it right. esp w/ lightweight stuff.

[A.L.Breguet]

thanks to all for the kind words of concern.
I was not going to post this incident at all, but after talking to several cycling buddies, it became clear that it would be a good reminder of all of the potential failures we can experience JRA.
A few days ago I noticed one of those noises in my bike that we all experience from timt to time. I chalked it up to lots of recent racing in the rain. I often have to regrease the ti spindle to alum crank connection after a realy wet ride to eliminate an annoying but harnless noise. Anywho, as you can imagine, what had really happened is I exceeded the usable life of the bars. These bars cane with a Colnago classic I bought about 5 1/2 years ago. I don't know the brand, but here is a pic of the faded logo.
The stem is a pretty new Syntace. I had atleast 2 other stems on these bars over the years. I figure the mileage on the bars is a minimum of 40,000. I had two minor low speed crashes on these bars about 2 years ago that didn't even require a retaping.
I,m 145lbs. x 5'7".
The misshap occurred as I was pulling away from a traffic light with some vigor. I think I had my full weight on the side that broke ,so I landed ass over teakettle full force. I was uncharacteristically helmetless and got my bell rung a bit(tinker bell, not the bells of St. Mary's).
Result: Broken collarbone, and several broken ribs way up high.
Secondary result: The end of what was turning in to a successful spring campaign.
I will never, ever ride without a lid again.
sorry for te spelling and what not. I hurt.

[shinomaster]

i thk a major problem is improper attachment.
guys do it themselves, torque the bolts wrong..the bars slip...
they are at that point destroyed due to the big notch caused by the slippage...
well, nobody wants to throw out a new ( but ruined ) set of bars...
so they use them and bango...trouble ahead.

not saying this was what happened here but its been seen a lot.

its always better to pay someone if you dont know how to do it right. esp w/ lightweight stuff.


Wanna hear a sad story? My dad rides. I got him some sweet ITM bars and a new Millenium stem on ebay (26.0). I told my dad to take it to his LBS in Elmira because it should be installed by a pro as the bars are thin. The mechanic got the old Cinelli face plate switched with the new ITM and stripped out the brand new ITM stem!!! They don't make those stems any more...:( My dad yelled at me the next day telling me that "your fathers not a moron, he could have done a better job."

[A.L.Breguet]

i thk a major problem is improper attachment.
guys do it themselves, torque the bolts wrong..the bars slip...
they are at that point destroyed due to the big notch caused by the slippage...
well, nobody wants to throw out a new ( but ruined ) set of bars...
so they use them and bango...trouble ahead.

not saying this was what happened here but its been seen a lot.

its always better to pay someone if you dont know how to do it right. esp w/ lightweight stuff.
Bingo! I have thought of replacing these bars for some time due to the exact scenario you describe.

[Keith A]

Easton, as I recall, was against 4 bolt stems for similar reasons; I think the document is still on their site somewhere.I guess Easton has changed their minds...

Easton’s new EA70 4-bolt stem is race ready with Easton’s proprietary EA70 alloy, Top-Lock™ technology, DST™ and race proven TaperWall™ technology. The 3D Forged design and shot-peen finish ensures maximum strength and fatigue life. Perfect for the real enthusiast or racer looking for that winning edge.
http://www.eastonbike.com/images/P-stems/rd_stem_ea70_08.jpg

Easton’s lightest aluminum stem boasts a 4-bolt design featuring Easton’s new Top-Lock™ technology, DST™ and proven TaperWall™ technology. The 3D Forged design ensures maximum strength and stiffness, but at 125 grams, without the weight penalty. A perfect performance enhancement for any MTB, cyclocross or road bike.
http://www.eastonbike.com/images/P-stems/rd_stem_ea90_08.jpg

[keevon]

It's interesting that the break occurred on the same side as the (light?) mounting bracket. Perhaps fatigue + stem clamping force + bracket clamping force = failure?

And for those that 'check their bars often', what are you looking for aside from obvious cracks?

[giordana93]

I guess Easton has changed their minds...

I did use past tense "easton WAS against" 4 bolts. too lazy at the time to look up the document, but it's on this page
http://www.eastonbike.com/TECHNICAL/technical_bulletins.html
it is the item entitled "Number 6- 2 bolts vs. 4 bolts"

I was able to cut and paste some of the relevant passages:

A two-bolt system has definite advantages when it comes to clamping bars with thinner walls. It does a better job of spreading the clamping force evenly over the entire area of the face plate. The center of the bar suffers less trauma when tightened. Four-bolt stems pose a couple of challenges. First, most four-bolt stems use smaller diameter bolts. This is done partly to compensate for the increased weight of the extra bolts. To further offset this weight issue, stem designers will often use bolts made from titanium. Either way, they are not as strong as the chromoly bolts used with a two-bolt stem. A second drawback is the way that four bolts apply clamping force to the bar. It’s much more of a challenge to apply even clamping pressure across the center of the bar with a fourbolt system. If installed improperly, fourbolt face plates can pinch the bars at the corners of the face plate, damaging the center area of the bar. Even with proper assembly, a four-bolt stem places mes can lead to premature fatigue failure or crack initiation. A two-bolt design is self centering; it allows clamping stresses to dissipate before reaching the edge of the stem where the bar exits. Time to talk torque It seems like everybody is bent (pun intended) on over-tightening components. Why is this? Lots of reasons: people are afraid that their components will come loose; people commanual or assembly instructions generally recommend a torque specification. But is this a suggestion or a requirement? If 60 in/lbs of torque is good, why not use 90 in/lbs for that added security? At some point the bar is tight enough to function and not slip. Is the torque value supplied by the stem manufacturer not enough, just enough, or too much in relation to what it takes to hold the bar securely without slipping? How do manufacturers arrive at their recommended torque values? The torque values supplied by manufacturers are frequently based on the forces that the bolt can withstand. The bar is probably tight enough at some point prior to reaching the maximum torque specified. Two-bolt pattern distributes stress evenly over the entire area of the faceplate. Four-bolt pattern is prone to stress hot spots when individual bolts are over-tightened. Stem Bolt Torque Guidelines TWO-BOLTSTEM*DESCRIPTION TORQUE(IN/LBS) 45 Adequate to safely secure most handlebars. 50–60 Torque that can readily be generated by hand with a screwdriver. 70 The maximumsafe torque for lightweight handlebars. 80 Torque level that can permanently damage lightweight aluminum or composite bars. 50 – 110 Torque value that could be indicated as the maximum value by a stem manufacturer (based on the torque specs of the bolts used). * Four-bolt stems exert twice the pressure on a handlebar as two-bolt stems at any given torque value.

[soulspinner]

Wow. I hope you heal quickly and completely. Just checked my stuff over on my daily driver this A.M. before my ride. Was thinking my WCS bars are approaching 15k. Thanks 4 posting this.

[MarleyMon]

...
Result: Broken collarbone, and several broken ribs way up high.
Secondary result: The end of what was turning in to a successful spring campaign.
I will never, ever ride without a lid again.
sorry for te spelling and what not. I hurt.
I hope you heal up fast - what a bummer!

[manet]

... floppish

[fixednwinter]

I feel really bad about your broken bones. All I can say is that I'm very glad it wasn't worse. Hope you heal up real soon.

Thanks for sharing your story with all of us - it's a good incident for us to learn from.

[manet]

A.L.

clear your calendar, seventeen (17) dvds just got dropped off... oy!

[Fivethumbs]

Those are Coda bars. I have some. The feel like they are made of a heavier gauge of aluminum than some other bars I have (like Deda 215s) I guess a couple of crashes and a lot of miles is too much to ask of even heavy gauge aluminum bars. Hope you feel better soon. At least there is Cyclism Sundays.

[djg]

That's a serious drag -- I hope that you're on the mend, and that it's not too long before you're back on the bike.

Thanks for the heads-up.

[jvp]

Are old, classic (cinelli, ttt) used bars likely to fail in the same manner, or are they thicker/stonger? I am using a ~ 30 yr. old set up on my beater bike (cinelli stem & bars), don't know their previous history. They have seemed solid for the past year, no creaks or moans...

[saab2000]

Are old, classic (cinelli, ttt) used bars likely to fail in the same manner, or are they thicker/stonger? I am using a ~ 30 yr. old set up on my beater bike (cinelli stem & bars), don't know their previous history. They have seemed solid for the past year, no creaks or moans...

No promises, but I have been using older Cinelli stuff since the '80s with no problems. The thinner, lighter, heat treated stuff of today is, I would guess, more brittle. I also use modern stuff.

[A.L.Breguet]

Are old, classic (cinelli, ttt) used bars likely to fail in the same manner, or are they thicker/stonger? I am using a ~ 30 yr. old set up on my beater bike (cinelli stem & bars), don't know their previous history. They have seemed solid for the past year, no creaks or moans...
Dunno. I have several old sets of cinellis and used to have a pair that were noticebly bent from multiple crashes. They didn't break. However, I've heard of bars breaking since I started serious riding in the late 70's.
Retire them now, atmo.

[Fixed]

get well bro i have some classic bend profiles in 40 if you need them .cheers

[A.L.Breguet]

get well bro i have some classic bend profiles in 40 if you need them .cheers
Thanks for the offer. :beer: :banana: :beer: :banana:

[jvp]

I'm reluctant to switch them out, they still have the original leather wrap -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/bottecchia006.jpg

[Erik.Lazdins]

Get to feeling better - take care of your head - the symptoms of a concussion can linger for months. The brain is the last part of the human body to mature at about age 25 and the slowest to heal.

Sorry to read about your crash - best wishes for a complete recovery!

Erik

[Fixed]

Thanks for the offer. :beer: :banana: :beer: :banana:
p.m. sent bro

[Spicoli]

As inspiration for A.L. to get better quickly, I am starting a race fund of services! I am donating 2 leadouts, 1 breakaway, and will "flick" any 1 rival of his choice! feel free to donate any services you have :beer:

GET WELL SOON, Jeff

PS. not sure if you know Andrew R. from the team but his stem had a 1" crack longways on his stem he had no idea was there until I said to him last Sunday "Dude whats that line on your stem?" It was right on top and I could stick my nail into it. ***check your stuff folks*** these things scare the crap out of me I am double and triple checking now!

[chuckred]

Are old, classic (cinelli, ttt) used bars likely to fail in the same manner, or are they thicker/stonger? I am using a ~ 30 yr. old set up on my beater bike (cinelli stem & bars), don't know their previous history. They have seemed solid for the past year, no creaks or moans...

I had a Cinelli bar (from around '76) break off in my hand on a climb - but it was over ten years old, certainly had been crashed several times over the years, and, most importantly, it had been drilled for internal cables from bar ends.

My other bike also had a Cinelli bar. It creaked off and on ever since new. Replacing it turned into a nightmare and I ended up with a very ugly Profile Designs H2O stem, but that's another story.

The stem still looks fine, but it's only on my trainer at this point.

[malcolm]

A.L.B. is that your x-ray and if so is that a bullet fragment? Just curious. Hope you get well soon.

[11.4]

It's not just a road bar that can give you problems. This was a virtually brand new un-crashed track bar. Luckily, no accident -- typical Aussie luck. I've bent old Cinelli steel track bars and even bent a steel Cinelli track stem once -- just in starts. I've certainly bent a bunch of stuff in crashes. There's no percentage in not replacing crashed equipment, as others have pointed out. On the keirin circuit, where betting depends on it, any bike in a crash is completely replaced even if there's no sign of damage -- that's everything from frame to wheels to components.

[A.L.Breguet]

A.L.B. is that your x-ray and if so is that a bullet fragment? Just curious. Hope you get well soon.
Yeah, I forgot that part of the story. There was a little gun play in Radiology.
It is Jersey City after all :banana:

That's the zipper from my Protogs wool jersey. I was concerned they would try to cut it off of me. I've had that jersey for more than 25 yearsmo.

[A.L.Breguet]

Spicoli, see you on the podium :beer:

[stevep]

protogs?
butch martin.
talk the coy about butch martin.



Yeah, I forgot that part of the story. There was a little gun play in Radiology.
It is Jersey City after all :banana:

That's the zipper from my Protogs wool jersey. I was concerned they would try to cut it off of me. I've had that jersey for more than 25 yearsmo.

[chrisroph]

protogs?
butch martin.
talk the coy about butch martin.

haven't heard anybody talk about protogs in forever.

butch is one tough dude. i keep telling these kids that butch has way more national championships than everybody else at this race put together, if he says something to you you better listen to him.

[A.L.Breguet]

I met Butch a few times. He was involved with a Philly team I was on, and he was pretty tight with a buddy of mine from back then.

[e-RICHIE]

I met Butch a few times. He was involved with a Philly team I was on, and he was pretty tight with a buddy of mine from back then.
what team atmo?
omar was class personified.
he was class before class was defined.
every one should know his story atmo.
he paved the waymo.
and he got major league jobbed by the uscf iirc.

[chrisroph]

what team atmo?
omar was class personified.
he was class before class was defined.
every one should know his story atmo.
he paved the waymo.
and he got major league jobbed by the uscf iirc.


when i first started racing he was the man in the usa. the thing is now almost nobody has any idea who he is. that's why i tell everybody that he is the man.

what did the uscf do to him? was it the coaching thing?

[Fixed]

i like his name he was a john howard team mate i think ? 68?
cheers

[e-RICHIE]

when i first started racing he was the man in the usa. the thing is now almost nobody has any idea who he is. that's why i tell everybody that he is the man.
how old are youmo?

what did the uscf do to him? was it the coaching thing?
yes atmo.

[chrisroph]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]how old are youmo?

QUOTE]

54

[e-RICHIE]

54
you musta started early cuzza butch was already
on the sidelines by the mid 70s atmo. he still was
racing, but his era was a tad before it all broke here
in the states iircmo.

[chrisroph]

you musta started early cuzza butch was already
on the sidelines by the mid 70s atmo. he still was
racing, but his era was a tad before it all broke here
in the states iircmo.


i started in 72 or 73 in socal and read about butch in the mcfadden rag, competitive cycling, although i never got to see him race. howard had kind of supplanted butch as the us's best road racer by the time i really got into the sport. his wife rebecca started riding with our team about 5 years ago. butch came out and decided he wanted to coach again. he's running a good local team with some talented riders including this junior named jacob rathe who is the real deal.

[e-RICHIE]

i started in 72 or 73 in socal and read about butch in the mcfadden rag, competitive cycling, although i never got to see him race. howard had kind of supplanted butch as the us's best road racer by the time i really got into the sport. his wife rebecca started riding with our team about 5 years ago. butch came out and decided he wanted to coach again. he's running a good local team with some talented riders including this junior named jacob rathe who is the real deal.
yeah - i don't think of butch as ever "going up against"
the next generation of howard and that ilk. there was
some overlap, but not much. he had already done the
euro thing and come home by then. what a rider's rider
he wasmo. and macfadden had that antitrust thing against
the abl for 'sanctioning' cyclenews (now velonews) as
it's official newletter thingy. they had a free sub offer
with each new license, and jim didn't like thatmo.

[chrisroph]

yeah - i don't think of butch as ever "going up against"
the next generation of howard and that ilk. there was
some overlap, but not much. he had already done the
euro thing and come home by then. what a rider's rider
atmo. and macfadden had that antitrust thing against
the abl for 'sanctioning' cyclenews (now velonews) as
it's official newletter thingy. they had a free sub offer
with each new license, and jim didn't like thatmo.

that was the death knell of his publication, which was a lot better than cyclenews at the time.


funny parallels--my first team was the southbay wheelmen. our guns were mullica, therrio and buyny. our coach was ted ernst. i was a dumb, strong 20 year old and listened to about 3/4 of what those guys tried to teach me, which was a lot more than some of the young guys but there was so much more available. what resources.

a lot of the young guys now are kind of the same with butch.

[e-RICHIE]

that was the death knell of his publication, which was a lot better than cyclenews at the time.


funny parallels--my first team was the southbay wheelmen. our guns were mullica, therrio and buyny. our coach was ted ernst. i was a dumb, strong 20 year old and listened to about 3/4 of what those guys tried to teach me, which was a lot more than some of the young guys but there was so much more available. what resources.

a lot of the young guys now are kind of the same with butch.
sbw - gitane atmo...

[chrisroph]

sbw - gitane atmo...

gitane-pernod

wish i still had the jersey, they were cool

[AgilisMerlin]

I'm reluctant to switch them out, they still have the original leather wrap -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/bottecchia006.jpg

SHWING............... .!.

[A.L.Breguet]

Was going through my old posts while sitting here recovering from surgery, and found this gem:
#11 05-06-2007, 10:44 AM
A.L.Breguet
IH8NJ Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Between Centres
Posts: 831

ride 'em 'til they break, then go back to aluminum bars.
__________________
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