SE vs GS: True Customization?

[moondog-sparky]

as a lurker of this forum for quite some time (7yrs or so) i have always enjoyed the input and knowledge base of the regulars here - as well as the show of the different personalities on a daily basis.

the recent thread "Serotta Brand Management Team" coupled with my interest in purchasing a Serotta later this year has led me to actually post for probably the 2nd time in years. soooo, outta the closer here i come...


my interest is solely focused on the carbon offerings from serotta, and d/t my long torso/short leg combo, the HSG does not work. so i'm looking at a meivici in the GS format as it's MUCH friendlier to my wallet than the SE (a price i find absurd) and offers customization geometry-wise. i spoke at length with a rep on the phone the other day and he did basically agree that the HSG, meivici SE/GS models are roughly constructed the same - the primary differences are the carbon tubes and paint, and thus the cost differences. i get it. 3 diffferent levels of essentially the "same" bike, but with varying levels of hi-tech carbon and paint.

however, i was more than shocked to realize that if i chose the meivici GS option i COULD NOT choose a higher-level paint scheme, or even dream up some fancy paint for myself. even if i were to pay an additional cost. no chance, no discussion. the reasoning was that the GS scheme was created to help speed up the process of making frames and shorten turnaround time. he said approx 60% of the total frame bldg process was caught up in paint alone and that doing special paint on a GS frame would break down the reason they went that route in the first place.

i find this astounding, especially in light of the thread i mentioned above. customization. it's the serotta buzz-word. it's their whole pitch in a nutshell. i understand their stock offerings and do get not changing those in any way to maximize production - they're stock, and priced appropriately. but a $5.6K frame that is pitched as custom-sized, but only slightly custom painted? and i can't even pay more $$$ to get it the way i like? please help me understand this. are they really making soooooo many meivicis they can't yank one GS one out of the line and change the paint scheme, for MORE $$$?

and just as importantly, i'm finding with seveal builders (including parlee) that any kind of custom paint is major money - as in $1K or more. this leads me to believe that the variation in price from SE to GS is more about paint (i.e. labor) than the differences in true technology (i.e. TC5 vs TC3 carbon tubes). and that's a $3K difference!

this is not a rant about the price. it is what it is and you either pay it or you don't. what i'm shocked by is that i've already reached the decision to pay $5.6K for the GS (plus another $300 or so to get the F3 fork) - AND I'M WILLING TO PAY FOR BETTER PAINT. but cannot. is this truly because of speed/turnaround issues, or is it a way to squeeze potential buyers into the SE series? very confusing...and doubly so if they're hiring big-wigs to help sort out branding issues/marketing issues/sales.

if you've come here for a frame, believe me you're more than likely interested in having it "your way". let's face it - they're GREAT frames, but it's not as if colnago, time, look aren't also making GREAT frames that all hover @ or below the $5k mark. soooo, if i go over that mark (and willingly so), i would like to know i get it "my way" - especially if i have the checkbook. don't offer customization and hype "dream bike" stuff with the SE/GS window popup if you can't make changes that are offered at other price points. if the customer is willing to pay more. stock vs custom, that seems to be the only 2 choices - not stock, custom, semi-custom. it's an odd marketing message to me.

any thoughts on this would be appreciated...

[deechee]

weird. That's all I can say. Then again I'm not in sales. Never understood this marketing thing.

And about the paint? Can u ask for a price drop if you ask for no paint? Then send it to someone else or pay for Serotta's level2 paint repair (http://www.serotta.com/owners/repair_pricing.html) ? Its only 920$.

[rphetteplace]

$1K will buy you a hell of a paintjob. I'd get the cheaper bike then contact COAT (Vanilla's new paint shop) and see what they'll do ya for


my .02

[stevep]

i find this astounding, ...

me too.
s

[moondog-sparky]

i did consider outside paint - but don't know if there would be any $$$ savings. or if what it takes to get the frame prepped for it.

speaking of vanilla, i received mine in '05 with SPECTACULAR paint! no stickers. true paint. and all done within the constraints of the original price - no upcharges, etc. and even though his prices have gone up, if part of my $3k price at that time was paint, say $1K, that's 1/3 of his effort - i seriously doubt that. the workmanship on the frame was his work, the paint was the icing. i suspect this is the same for e-richie. no stickers there either.

i guess what confuses me is that serotta can handle their own paint in-house. why can't they make adjustments (within reason, and for more $$$) for their customers? if you sell yourself as a boutique shop then ya gotta offer boutique solutions - just like my company does. otherwise it makes the large-volume off the shelf frames that much more attractive for much less cash. again, don't confuse the branding/marketing direction for your clients.

[dekindy]

Like it or not everyone has limited resources. The Serotta paint shop can only produce a certain number of custom painted frames per year. If they do custom on GS models it would lengthen the production time for GS models and SE and standard models also and reduce the number of total units produced. If paint is half the frame building time it probably makes sense to produce more $5.6K units than spend time custom painting more units that they charge much less for.

A quick review shows that Serotta is consistent and does not offer more than standard of Level 1 paint options on any of their custom models.

From a marketing perspective it is common to limit certain colors/options/designs to more expensive models of any type of product. It is not generally a good idea to make less expensive products that look like more expensive models. Like it or not, status and general marketing concepts apply everywhere. Even at Serotta.

[dekindy]

i did consider outside paint - but don't know if there would be any $$$ savings. or if what it takes to get the frame prepped for it.

speaking of vanilla, i received mine in '05 with SPECTACULAR paint! no stickers. true paint. and all done within the constraints of the original price - no upcharges, etc. and even though his prices have gone up, if part of my $3k price at that time was paint, say $1K, that's 1/3 of his effort - i seriously doubt that. the workmanship on the frame was his work, the paint was the icing. i suspect this is the same for e-richie. no stickers there either.

i guess what confuses me is that serotta can handle their own paint in-house. why can't they make adjustments (within reason, and for more $$$) for their customers? if you sell yourself as a boutique shop then ya gotta offer boutique solutions - just like my company does. otherwise it makes the large-volume off the shelf frames that much more attractive for much less cash. again, don't confuse the branding/marketing direction for your clients.

Is this a good example? Isn't Vanilla's lead time 5 years?

[moondog-sparky]

dekindy:

thx for the response - nicely put. and i do get limiting paint, etc on many items - especially the stock items, in order to get production up. and that you don't want to slow down the flow of things with special orders, or devalue a product.

again, i'm talking about the meivici - their top o'the line offering. yes, it's the GS level and not the SE, but i'm hardly trying to tart up a lowly dog with better paint. it's virtually the same bike as the SE and is part of their flagship grouping. couple that with their whole tagline of customization your way, and it's still confusing. plus, i'm only wanting to go up levels in paint according to their scheme, not dream up something crazy - which they used to do on a regular basis for nearly any frame in the past, right? i've seen MANY serottas of various vintages painted in almost any fashion the owner desired, based upon his wallet. i would think that is still applicable from a boutique builder.

so, this goes back to their brand management team. where is serotta going? is this a message that they plan to play with the big boys and limit the fun / boutiqueness they've sold for years? have they reached a critical size where this type of customer service is limited? it's a weird message from a company that has said for years, "if you've got the cash, we can do it for you."

[davids]

I understand Serotta's decision, and how the buyer's options keep expanding as they move to more expensive models. I think it's comprehensible and creates a logical progression from stock to first-level custom to balls-out custom.

But I'm sorry you can't get what you want.

[Grant McLean]

I'M WILLING TO PAY FOR BETTER PAINT...

My guess is that you are not alone.

In my experience, the paint is what seals the deal for the customer who is
ordering a handmade bike. Unless there is a very strong signature/team colour,
the client will want to express their creativity in paint. No two the same...

-g

[moondog-sparky]

i only used the vanilla story as an example of how you can get a great result with COMPLETELY custom paint, and that it's not a huge part of the overall cost (i suppose). and at that time i only waitd 14months, and he was still able to do it. again - no stickers. real paint. completely different for virtually every frame he makes. i do get the apples-to-oranges part of this story though, the large frame maker vs one man shop. it's more of a question of how a custom shop can't make changes to offer up better customization - given the time and money from the client.

most of the lower end serotta work uses stickers to boot. and their level 2 paint job is $920. only level 2. it's their prices though, and i'm willing to pay - if they will let me do it. that's the real question - why not?

i should also mention that i put no time constraint on serotta - i'm willing to be at their mercy for timing. i'd just like to get a paint job i like (for more money) and that they already offer on other bikes.

[moondog-sparky]

i think grant gets it. once you get a handmade/custom sized bike, you'd like it to look a certain way. if, as a company you offer customization, i would think it's very hard to draw a hard line in the sand that can't be crossed with cash. for the top of the line bike (nearly).

otherwise, what is the draw of a boutique builder? let's face it, at this level soooo much of our buying decisions are more emotional than practical. paint is emotional. you have to address the emotional needs over $5K, in my mind. custom paint on a $2.5K frame? maybe not. i get it. the middle-range frame? maybe not. i get it. but the meivici? it doesn't resonate with me. that's the pinnacle, even if with different tube sets, the sticker still says meivici - that's how you market to future buyers and pull at their emotions.

[Pete Serotta]

Have you contacted your dealer to see what they can do in regard to paint options.? I know what is on the Home Page but alot is possible with the interaction of the dealer and the Saratoga folks.....All type of options are available for a fee (just like PORSCHE)....

If you need a recommendation on dealer, you can get folks to offer one, once we know where you are located (or what area you would like to buy from.

Please feel free to contact me personally (Pete@serotta.com) or pmckeon@bellsouth.net

[Richard]

I believe, moondog, that you are basically confirming the need for a marketing team at Serotta. You've outlined the customization vs. production vs. Serottas desired market problem well. Another problem is the race heritage vs. the comfort fit set up that is (to my eye) most Serottas. Adding an HSG line only further confuses the brand image. Marketing a race image, then delivering bikes with a living room couch fit and set up creates many disparaging comments among certain cogniscenti. That said, they do need to better define the image and make it clear who they intend to attract to the brand, price aside. I suppose hiring the team means they get that.

[1centaur]

From my reading, the bigger the maker the worse the flexibility in production line changes. They carefully analyze the work flow, try to de-bottleneck, and try to price (a complex accounting excercise) for their ability to get the throughput, but then it's done. The mere act of one-off thinking is too much because it upsets the balance so carefully achieved in production.

Potential customers who imagine how simple it is to just pull a frame off a production line and send it through an existing paint process can't believe that the manufacturer is not eager, let alone willing, to get paid so much for such a slight variation of routine. What they do not appreciate is how valuable that routine is to the whole firm. Mass (true) customization is not the goal of a firm like Serotta, well-conceived options that fit an efficient production process are.

That said, I do think there should be a place for pulling a frame off the production line and sending it to a trusted outside painter who won't violate the warranty by baking the frame in his wife's oven but will contract with the customer individually with no Serotta guaranty of paint quality or time to deliver. While a customer could choose to buy the bike with a generic option and then send it off to one of the many qualified painters out there to strip it and re-do it as desired, I'm betting the warranty would be voided by that. To me, that's the most frustrating aspect of wanting good paint on a stock bike that does not have it - the maker washes its hands of warranty issues even if there is no credible chance of the painting process producing them. Failure to have a stable of no-violation approved painters is not the right choice, IMO, because it loses sales in circumstances like these, sales that ought to be both more profitable and simpler (especially if unpainted at the factory) if thought out correctly.


BTW - If I were to buy another Parlee I would be looking for my own painter if that $1k price was for a job that was fairly simple.

[stevep]

BTW - If I were to buy another Parlee I would be looking for my own painter if that $1k price was for a job that was fairly simple.

$1k for paint?
yikes.

who paints them,
michaelangelo?

[Sandy]

1. You make some very compelling reasons why you should be able to get precisely what you want. Beautifully stated too.

2. Dekindy makes a great deal of sense in explaining why it might be best production/number of units wise for Serotta not to give you precisely what you want relative to an economical money in the bank approach.

3. But you make such a strong point that the MeiVici is the top of the line model, you are willing to pay an additional upcharge, and Serotta is supposedly offering fully custom product. So you are still not satisfied. Clearly understandable why.

4. Pete enters the discussion and makes a suggestion. I would strongly suggest that you follow his lead.

It appears that perhaps your most reasonable desire is simply not really congruent with the paint shop capability/time allocation structure of Serotta. Too much time spent painting bikes might mean not acceptable number of units produced. But Serotta really cares about their customers. So I am speculating that if you follow what Pete says, you may get what you want. Just a thought.


Sandy

[dauwhe]

Marketing a race image, then delivering bikes with a living room couch fit and set up creates many disparaging comments among certain cogniscenti.

I thought their fitting process was adaptable to many riders and riding styles. I think this is one of the strengths of the brand--not appealing to people who just want to ride the same bike as Bettini or Boonen, and be forced into the same position.

I say to heck with those cogniscenti! ;)

Dave

[Climb01742]

That said, I do think there should be a place for pulling a frame off the production line and sending it to a trusted outside painter who won't violate the warranty by baking the frame in his wife's oven but will contract with the customer individually with no Serotta guaranty of paint quality or time to deliver... Failure to have a stable of no-violation approved painters is not the right choice, IMO, because it loses sales in circumstances like these, sales that ought to be both more profitable and simpler (especially if unpainted at the factory) if thought out correctly.

bingo. this very logical suggestion, if viable, would seem to be win/win for both parties.

[Mikej]

Fancy paint = 8k frame - if the 5k frame came w/ fancy paint for 1k, there would be no need 8k frame w/fancy paint because you could get the 5k + 1k fancy paint option. Fancy paint = my frame is 8k, regular paint = your frame is not as expensive as mine. Its all about distinguished people needing to be seperated - like acura/ lexus. Did honda/ toyota need these brands?
Fancy 8k guy needs to better than 5k guy.

[catulle]

Before Colnago switched distributors in the US, last I checked they charged $150 for a custom paint job. My C-40 was custom painted at the factory at no cost, although that was some years ago. A couple of months ago, I asked Competitive Cyclist if I could order a custom painted C-50 and the answer was yes; except that I didn't ask what would be the price of the custom paint job.

[Richard]

My point was not what the fitting process could or could not do. I agree that there is no need to cram everyone into a specific fit philosophy. My point was that the brand's image gets muddled when so many different markets or design philosophies are touted. If they want to sell an image where their technologies and products are race heritage derived, then market to those who want a bolt upright comfort position, that is a muddled philosophy. Ferarri delivers a race derived product that is true to the heritage. Porsche, on the other hand, has manged to bifurcate the market and deliver its race derived product to one market and its suv/soft product to another (so it seems to me). Serotta has not been able to define two distinct markets where a product true to the race heritage is marketed to one and the more comfort oriented image product is for the other. This is about marketing, not what can or can't be done when they build the product. Perhaps Climbo is better equipped to discuss this than me, I am not a marketer.

[Sandy]

Fancy paint = 8k frame - if the 5k frame came w/ fancy paint for 1k, there would be no need 8k frame w/fancy paint because you could get the 5k + 1k fancy paint option. Fancy paint = my frame is 8k, regular paint = your frame is not as expensive as mine. Its all about distinguished people needing to be seperated - like acura/ lexus. Did honda/ toyota need these brands?
Fancy 8k guy needs to better than 5k guy.

Excellent point. But there are a couple of important differences in the framesets unrelated to color/design options. The tube sets are different as are the forks. If I were to buy a Meivici, I would consider the above, along with price differences, as deciding factors as which to choose.


Sandy

[mosca]

IMO, the SE/GS distinction is confusing and not really effective marketing for the brand.

And it seems like when you hit that $5K price point, you should be entitled to certain rights and privileges, ie custom paint options. Heck, even Trek will do custom paint these days.

Let's hope that crack marketing team does more than just dream up slogans. ;)

[Climb01742]

And it seems like when you hit that $5K price point, you should be entitled to certain rights and privileges, ie custom paint options.

this, to me, is the nub of the issue. if $5600 doesn't buy custom paint, then the business model seems flawed, not the customer's expectations. every company has a right to set its prices as it sees fit. this instance, however, seems destined to drive customers away. i guess that's one route to exclusivity. :rolleyes:

[jbrainin]

that someone at Serotta is looking at this thread and thinking "I told them so! I told the new guys that by eliminating all these model names and coming up with three names made to two different spec levels would only confuse and piss off our customers."

There didn't seem to be nearly as much complaining about the difference between these two models last year when one was called Mei Vici and the other Attack.

[Grant McLean]

. this instance, however, seems destined to drive customers away.

that should free up some space in the paint room

;)

-g

[dekindy]

I want to echo the point that I too am sorry that you cannot get what you want.

I like to admire works of art as well as the next guy and it does not get any better than a well designed, built, and painted bicycle IMHO. I loved the Arancio color of my stock Fierte and got lots of compliments on it. The first training ride I went to after purchasing it another rider remarked that he had his eye on that bike also.

But I have went the other way. Bare titanium with no more scratched or chipped paint to worry about every time I have a small accident or the bike falls over. i bought my bike to ride and will have to settle for admiring everyone else's custom paint.

I don't want to steer you away from Serotta. But are you familiar with John Slawta and LandShark bicycles.
http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/index.html
His claim to fame is that Andy Hampsten won the Giro d' Itialia riding a Landshark bicycle. Historically he has worked in steel and has recently started building carbon frames. And to top it off when you are talking to the builder you are also talking to the painter. John got a scholarship to a school of art and design and decided to make his hobby of building bicycles a career. I regularly go through his gallery and admire the art. Occasionally you will see one on E-bay and they are usually custom painted. You can also send it back to him for repaint if needed.

BTW - the company name does come from the Saturday Night Live skit.

Just a thought.

[mikebike70]

Fancy paint = 8k frame - if the 5k frame came w/ fancy paint for 1k, there would be no need 8k frame w/fancy paint because you could get the 5k + 1k fancy paint option. Fancy paint = my frame is 8k, regular paint = your frame is not as expensive as mine. Its all about distinguished people needing to be seperated - like acura/ lexus. Did honda/ toyota need these brands?
Fancy 8k guy needs to better than 5k guy.


I totally agree. its like any car model line up. if you want to get into an audi, you get in to an A4. if you want all the goodies and the cool rims, decent engine etc - you get the S4. there is a reason why those cool rims are limited to the top of the line model. makes you want it and makes you climb up the product line.

[dirtclub]

i am not sorry that you can't get what you want at the price you want. i think that you just want to complain until you get your way. everyone wants everything cheap. you say you are willing to pay more for what you want (just not what they are asking.) then pony up and pay for the SE. serotta is not a used car lot. don't try to haggle and complain until you get a smokin' deal that you can brag to you friends about. serotta is a business not a charity.

[mikebike70]

that someone at Serotta is looking at this thread and thinking "I told them so! I told the new guys that by eliminating all these model names and coming up with three names made to two different spec levels would only confuse and piss off our customers."

There didn't seem to be nearly as much complaining about the difference between these two models last year when one was called Mei Vici and the other Attack.

...like i said in my earlier post, i liken it to cars. i prefer the simple audi line up of A4, S4, RS4, or the bmw 3,5,7 and X etc versus the K car approach... cars with different names - but underneath the badge and trim they're all the same.

[moondog-sparky]

my intention is not to whine or rant. serotta has long branded itself as custom, with many options. for YEARS they have painted frames in a multitude of different ways, based on customers desires, not on the "level" of the bike. now they change that approach. i get it. i accept it. but i don't like it, and i think it sends a very quirky message of the "new" serotta. comparing this to audi is patently abusrd. audi has never espoused customization. serotta has long preached customization - until now, and with limits.

and flowing with your audi analogy, let me ask you this: would you buy the RS4 if it looked like a standard A4? backwards marketing, so to speak. doubtful. the GS meivici is very much like an HSG. what's the logic there if i'm to follow your car logic? at the very least the meivici GS should be closer to the SE in paint options, not nearly as limited as the GS is towards the HSG.

1. Serotta Pete - I'll take you up on your offer and email for some help on this. but i gotta ask: what does going to a dealer really do for me? what can they answer that a direct serotta sales rep cannot? either the paint option upgrade @ cost is a go, or a no-go. what's the dealer going to bring other than confusion? surely someone at serotta can say yes or no simply.

2. grant and richard seem to get it best. this is about flexibility within a company that has long preached flexibility. it's about addressing customer desires IF you can, and when you preach it from the hilltops - and at this price point. i've said it before - the HSG i get. it's a stock bike with stock paint and much cheaper. but semi-custom like the GS? if you're going to try and open the meivici door a little wider to let in more buyers, then ya gotta allow for some flex for those who want a little more, but don't want to spend $8K just to get decent paint. at least, if you do limit it, then recognize you limit the message and the sales.

3. colnago is a prime example. as a long-time colnago rider i can assure you that custom paint is totally available. any exisiting scheme (AD10, PR82, etc) can be had on any frame, at any time. usuallyf or +$200 - $400. additionally, you can dream up your own colorshceme and they WILL DO IT for a reasonable cost. granted the italian painter may vary it based upon his mood that day, but it can be done. it's not that i'm trying to say colnago are better, but it illustrates that large scale operations recognize the need to fulfill customer desires. cost/time may vary, but that's your call.

[mikebike70]

i dont think my anology is absurd. just saying that the naming is based on models and trim levels.

would i buy an RS if it looked like a A4? no. but it's human nature to want , to desire the best. to be different that the rest. to do that may come at a premium.

serotta offers customization... everything from GS to dream bike. doesnt it make sense to offer set limits? to allow different customers to have different entry points? so there are standards of pricing, production and customer expectations? i guess the other option is total flexibilty - but that sounds like a pricing and logistics nightmare for Serotta and the dealers.

just my .02

[moondog-sparky]

i hear you on the "desire" thing. that's ultimately what most nice bikes boil down to. desire, not need. not even performance.

i also understand setting limits. every manufacturer has to - but those limits nearly always pertain to a given package. and even those packages quite often can be changed with $$$. volvo does this. audi does this. and they're large-scale production companies. give them time / money and they will change nearly any cosmetic item you can name. note i said cosmetic, cause that's what we're talking about here - not design or mechanics. not engines or suspension. colors.

my question is NOT why can't i get better paint on a GS @ the same price, but why can't i get better paint for MORE $$$? following your car analogy, i can assure you that one could purchase the "better" S4 wheels and slap them on a standard A4 any day of the week - just open the checkbook. my point with the paint is similar - i want better cosmetics and will pay for it. i'm not trying to change out tubes (TC3 vs TC5 for example), and i'm not trying to swap out engines like the S4 vs A4. i'm not trying to haggle down the price to get a cheap meivici. This is about doable cosmetic changes, for a reasonable price. heck, i never even asked serotta about the price of paint, i just asked for the change knowing i'd pay whatever the # was.

never once have i mentioned price in this thread. i've always been willing to pay for the upgraded paint. i'm not haggling in the least. i'm requesting flexibility from a company that preaches flexibility from the mountaintops. and flexibility not on the construction side where that can be tedious and trying to get something for nothing, but on cosmetics. paint. it's just changing paint folks, something this company has done easily and willingly for several decades.

[deechee]

and flowing with your audi analogy, let me ask you this: would you buy the RS4 if it looked like a standard A4? backwards marketing, so to speak.

There's a whole club of people who disguise their cars as normal ones by removing the dorky plastic badge off their cars. My friend's VWGolf doesn't have any ugly external markers but can take on Boxters and Zs. I'm much more of a subtlety guy.

I still think you should be able to get the paint job you want. And post it once its made :) Want to show us what you have in mind?

[swoop]

my take is that paint is the black hole in any manufacturing process. it takes up the most time, offers the most chances for fubar moments, and did i mention takes the most time?

any time a bike company has to wrap its head around a larger production process, its the paint-thing that has to become efficient or its just a giant hole to lose efficiency/dollars to production.

with growth there are trade-offs.
...


or you can order the bike... save up some more cash and take it to a painter of your choosing. its not that it can't be done, its that money and patience is never the answer anyone wants to hear. serotta is bridging a gap between a production process and a boutique process. they have to manage time per customer and time per bike or else its goodbye profit.

this is just a function of scale of production.

does that sound right? its just (my) opinion ...

[moondog-sparky]

swoop, my guess is you're right. it's all about time/cost when it comes to paint.

and that opens the door for my next thought - can i assume that the nearly $3K difference between an SE and GS meivici is all about paint, and not about TC5 vs TC3 carbon tubes? is it really that the mechanics of the material aren't the main factor in cost, the technology isn't really that different to justify the price difference, but that it's really just cosmetics? if so, that definitely undermines the whole marketing hype of TC5 tubes and what that brings to the table. that's a tough marketing pill to swallow.

thanks to all for chiming in. i think this horse has been flogged enough and it's time to take it to the barn.

[swoop]

swoop, my guess is you're right. it's all about time/cost when it comes to paint.

and that opens the door for my next thought - can i assume that the nearly $3K difference between an SE and GS meivici is all about paint, and not about TC5 vs TC3 carbon tubes? is it really that the mechanics of the material aren't the main factor in cost, the technology isn't really that different to justify the price difference, but that it's really just cosmetics? if so, that definitely undermines the whole marketing hype of TC5 tubes and what that brings to the table. that's a tough marketing pill to swallow.

thanks to all for chiming in. i think this horse has been flogged enough and it's time to take it to the barn.

i don't think that its all about paint... i think its all about time and materials and that a part of that is paint. the more time it takes to make this thing, the higher the labor cost. add additionally expensive materials, and the machines used to fabricate, and there's more cost and before you know it..
its another thousand dollars.

and so with the lower cost model.. its a bit of reverse engineering going on.. its, how do we build the same bike and eliminate production cost? (paint, and machine time=less labor time = producing essentially the same frame at the same profit margin at a lower cost).
the thing that gets lost from the equation is desire and the emotional process that any customer goes through when spending thousands on a frame... and paint is an emotional contact point .. for some its as important as the physical contact points.

[dirtdigger88]

Fancy paint = 8k frame - if the 5k frame came w/ fancy paint for 1k, there would be no need 8k frame w/fancy paint because you could get the 5k + 1k fancy paint option. Fancy paint = my frame is 8k, regular paint = your frame is not as expensive as mine. Its all about distinguished people needing to be seperated - like acura/ lexus. Did honda/ toyota need these brands?
Fancy 8k guy needs to better than 5k guy.

http://www.searchviews.com/images/sneetches.gif

Jason

[benb]

What is so silly about this is last year you could get level 1/2/3 paint jobs on every custom bike across the line.

I went through this when I got my Concours, a heck of a lot cheaper then a Meivici. If I wanted level 1/2/3 I would have just paid an upcharge.

Now if none of those paint options are available on the GS models, but they are included free with the SE models.. my question is.. are you paying for a level 3 finish even if you are happy with the standard finish and you want an SE?

Much better to just price all the bikes at "standard finish" and then list the prices for all the different options, upcharges for the more expensive paint colors, etc.. just be honest and list all the prices.

Hopefully the marketing team realizes how weird this new setup is.

[moondog-sparky]

BINGO! benb is right on the money.

not all changes are good, especially when pushing customization. and double especially with a high-end product that is centered around emotional responses.

minimize the confusion and make it easy to purchase what the client wants. or else become like giant, specialized, cannondale, etc. great bikes, but little emotional connection for the consumer (and yes, that's a generalization).

[soulspinner]

+1. There are people out there that for 500-1000 can knock your socks off paint wise. Get it. If ya love it then tear it down off season and have someone go nuts on it. Got a friend who took his bike to an artist and she absolutely killed it.

[Pete Serotta]

Note sent.....Take me up on my challenge.... :D :D A bottle of red also

[QUOTE=
1. Serotta Pete - I'll take you up on your offer and email for some help on this. but i gotta ask: what does going to a dealer really do for me? what can they answer that a direct serotta sales rep cannot? either the paint option upgrade @ cost is a go, or a no-go. what's the dealer going to bring other than confusion? surely someone at serotta can say yes or no simply.
all.[/QUOTE]

[Pete Serotta]

a big +1 (most folks spend hours on paint selection and then paint pattern

i don't think that its all about paint... i think its all about time and materials and that a part of that is paint. the more time it takes to make this thing, the higher the labor cost. add additionally expensive materials, and the machines used to fabricate, and there's more cost and before you know it..
its another thousand dollars.

and so with the lower cost model.. its a bit of reverse engineering going on.. its, how do we build the same bike and eliminate production cost? (paint, and machine time=less labor time = producing essentially the same frame at the same profit margin at a lower cost).
the thing that gets lost from the equation is desire and the emotional process that any customer goes through when spending thousands on a frame... and paint is an emotional contact point .. for some its as important as the physical contact points.

[navclbiker]

Sooooo Glad I ordered my CDA last August before they complicated everything. Sure my relatively inexpensive steel frame cost about $1000 more with my paint, but I love my one-of-a-kind bike! If I had to decide with the current offerings, I might choose a different builder. It just seems like Serotta is playing a shell game with their customers. :confused:
-Dave

[Smiley]

Sooooo Glad I ordered my CDA last August before they complicated everything. Sure my relatively inexpensive steel frame cost about $1000 more with my paint, but I love my one-of-a-kind bike! If I had to decide with the current offerings, I might choose a different builder. It just seems like Serotta is playing a shell game with their customers. :confused:
-Dave
I doubt its a shell game, more its because PAINT is the easiest thing to screw up and YOU the client notice it. If Serotta QC catches it before it leave the plant its a REPAINT and if you catch it once your frame is built up its a repaint and a re-ship and a cost of rebuild at the shop.

So YES Serotta would love to just polish every frame they build if they could and cut down on all the back charges. Hey I can't say I agree but FOR THEM it makes economic $ense. And Yes why can't Serotta build me an Ottrott DKS anymore, CAUSE ITS COST PROHIBITIVE especially if you can sell the consumer on a glued on rear carbon stay being better :)

[Brian Smith]

You can't lose.

1) Buy the GS, ride it for the season then send it back (or to someone else) for a custom repaint.
2) Step up to the SE, and get more custom tailored tube selection and *production love* along with your desired paint options.

The GS/SE arrangement has simplified the model lineup, but perhaps in some cases has made it more complicated or impossible to "work the system" to get what you want for less. It simply brought frame costs a little more in line with what production costs actually are, AND WERE BEFORE THE CHANGES, such that it's economically viable to offer such a things as a less expensive GS version of some models.

The future is unwritten, and Serotta does not HAVE to continue to make unprofitable products - true fans wouldn't WANT Serotta to do that, and I'm not doubting anyone's fandom here, just trying to offer some insight. If unprofitable models were simply cancelled rather than limited in their options, there would have been much more outcry than there is right now regarding the GS models that DO exist instead. Choices were made, and they're not entirely bad.

Swoop is on point in his estimations.

[navclbiker]

I wrote poorly. It was not my intent to accuse Serotta of playing a shell game. I was just putting myself in the shoes of a customer that does not know about Serotta and walks into a dealer that offers Serotta and say....Seven as custom offerings. I might choose the company that offers a pricing scheme that a person of my limited thinking ability could understand. As it stands now, I feel that the web site does not explain that pricing scheme well. Just sayin. :cool:
-Dave

[Grant McLean]

PAINT is the easiest thing to screw up

it's a tough thing.

If I ran my own bike company, i'd have lots of decal options, lots of paint colour options,
and a couple of two colour designs, like panels. But i think the manufacturer
needs to create a way to make it all manageable.

I'm constantly blown away by the quality finish on cheap bikes like Giants.
How can a $299 retail mountainbike have such great quality paint?
Well, production I guess. So if I were designing 'look' for my brand,
I'd want to use computer printing technology to make great quality graphics
that didn't take a ton of hand labour to reproduce. Ever take a close look
and the stenciling on Colnago frames? It's horrible! They even forgot to
mask the center of one of the A windows on the seatstay of my C40....

Anyway, paint and graphics is very important, because it's not only the visual
representation of "Quality" of the brand, it's also must translate the
personality of the bikes owner.

-g

[Smiley]

I wrote poorly. It was not my intent to accuse Serotta of playing a shell game. I was just putting myself in the shoes of a customer that does not know about Serotta and walks into a dealer that offers Serotta and say....Seven as custom offerings. I might choose the company that offers a pricing scheme that a person of my limited thinking ability could understand. As it stands now, I feel that the web site does not explain that pricing scheme well. Just sayin. :cool:
-Dave
Most consumers don't fret the paint and color schemes as much as we do here. Paint for almost every one of my past client was the last thing on their minds. Some ponied up for the up-grade but most worked within the limits of their own budgets. I will steer a client towards better wheels before I send them down the path of a $ 1000 paint up-grade.

[Grant McLean]

Most consumers don't fret the paint and color schemes as much as we do here. Paint for almost every one of my past client was the last thing on their minds.

wow. that's not my retail shop experience: colour sells the bike.

Paint a bike a bad colour, and you may as well mark it down 25%
Paint a bike a great colour, and you can charge more for it
That's the crazy thing....every colour costs the same, it's all about the
tastes of the market.

-g

[Peter P.]

Forget your story about you can "afford the paint". The problem is, you CAN'T afford the SE, because if you could, you'd buy it so you'd get the paint job you want. You are poor, and you are trying to rationalize the situation in your favor by placing the blame on Serotta. This is wrong.

Splitting the options like this distinguishes the GS series from the SE, and savvy Serotta owners and admirers will recognize those that bought upscale. Those that buy upscale WANT the exclusivity of the paint schemes only available on the SE series and can afford it.

Yes; it's marketing to make you desire and possibly buy up a series and shell out the extra $2800. There are apparently enough people out there willing to pony up the extra cash to get the paint of their desires that Serotta and limit the GS series options and extend them of the SE series. Another way of looking at it is, paint may not be a real profit center and Serotta tries to limit those asking for custom paint by making it cost prohibitive to a larger percentage of buyers.

I'll presume Serotta's marketing people have analyzed things and determined this is the way to go to maximize PROFIT. That's what they're in business for.

The bottom line is you're too poor to afford the bike you want, because that's the one that comes with the paint you want.

[Smiley]

wow. that's not my retail shop experience: colour sells the bike.

Paint a bike a bad colour, and you may as well mark it down 25%
Paint a bike a great colour, and you can charge more for it
That's the crazy thing....every colour costs the same, it's all about the
tastes of the market.

-g
Grant , Serotta does not offer garbage colors for their base GS option, You know what no matter how nice a bike paint job comes out I tell them to go ahead and take a knife and scratch the BB shell and get it over with. The bikes I pedal are tools to be ridden. So they will get dinged and scatched and Ah this allows for a re-paint down the road too :)

[moondog-sparky]

peter p - don't be a complete tool.

if you want to buy into the "maximize profits" story and can be convinced to "shell out the $2800", then be my guest. if you are only buying a meivici SE for the status of it all, for the "upscale"-ness of the experience, then i am disappointed for you. we're not talking louis vuitton here. it's targeted as a customized race bike, not a way to impress your buds like you may with say, a porsche. if the SE sticker gives you wood and shows you've got a stack of cash so be it. you don't know me from adam and my financial state - let's not go for slings and arrows to denigrate me because i'm aiming for a wise financial purchase while maximizing my power as a buyer. only fools buy into the hype of any product and willingly shell out major $$$$ to impress and/or display their status. i like nice paint. for me. i like nice bikes. for me. high-end goods are damn nice, but only fools pay retail without asking questions. everything is negotiable, and those that don't are soon parted from their cash. they may look good doing it, but i find it senseless.

please remember that what i'm asking for used to be completely possible - for more than 20 years. now we are supposed to believe that things have so completely changed at serotta that it is not financially smart to offer a paint upgrade - for an additional charge? let's consider these 2 scenarios:

1. companies like time, look, giant offer several framesets with each usually in only 1 or 2 colors. stopping that production line (of 100's or even 1000's) to grab one bike and paint it COMPLETELY different is a massive effort. i get it. not financially smart.

but let's look at serotta (which does custom paint for tons of frames every month) in a given month assuming 100 meivici's are sold. 1 month 1/2 are SE's - lots of complex paint jobs, and 1/2 are GS's - easy (cheaper) paint jobs. this is a nice balance, if you buy into the whole financially feasible thing and their ssheet looks great. but what if in one month only SE's are ordered? surely that overloads the system and causes them to lose money cause they got 100 complex paint jobs. do they then tell customer #51 that, "hey - you gotta get a GS cuz we're gonna go broke otherwise." nope. they sell what the customer orders. same thing if in a given month 100 people order GS's. "sorry sir, ya gotta buy an SE cuz we don't make money on the el cheapo's". also, let's not forget that even the lower end level 1 paint for GS's is still custom. given 100 orders in a given month there will still be at least 10 different batches of combo's, most likely more. so are you gonna tell me that by somehow moving a GS frame from that already complicated mix to a more complicated mix (i.e. level 3) somehow throws off their balance sheet? a company which already does numerous custom jobs each month (across 3 levels of paint)? it stretches the bounds of incredulity. how did that all of a sudden cause them financial pain?

what i'm getting at is this - serotta, unlike major manufacturers, is already in the custom business. the model to extract a bike and offer colors (always for an upcharge) exists. it's been going on for years, and still exists today - look at all the colors/schemes, etc. what do you mean, "not financially feasible"? i don't get this at all. if any customer asked for a GS with better paint at the CURRENT PRICE, and wouldn't pay more, i understand. but serotta certainly knows their break even point on upscale paint - so add that to the cost, and voila!, nobody loses money and you have happy customers. the process exists, just determine the true charge, add your profit in, and pass it on to the consumer (me.)

2. consider the 2 stages of building a bike like a meivici - 1, choose from 2 tubesets (TC5/SE vs TC3/GS) and build the frame. this is done in one part of the plant and after they're done, i bet all meivici's look the same naked. they're hanging around waiting for paint. 2, go to paint shed. again, this isn't giant or specialized, etc. are you really telling me that yanking a TC3 meivici from the lineup, applying special paint for an add'l cost, is really a big deal? again, incredulous. serotta does not generate massive assembly line bikes like the big boys. it's still a reasonably small group of builders who've certainly streamlined the effort, but there is definitely room for changes -for a cost. i know more paint = more time, but that time/cost/value can be calculated and charged for. if not, then in order to stay in biz, with your thought process, they would have to limit the # of upscale paint jobs in any given month for all their frames. but they don't. believe me. they just charge more for it, and rightfully so. there is no limit to the # of nice paint jobs they will do, cause they make more money @ it.

ideally, they should have separate charges for TC3 and TC5 on one side of the equation, and then paint on the other. the manufacturing part of the biz, and then the finishing part of the biz. i'd be willing to be that this would INCREASE profits because, as i've stated several times, this is an emotional purchase. GS sales would go UP, because the frameset is then affordable, and most people would opt for the paint upsale. i bet you serious money on this approach.

right. rant through. i don't really care that they won't do it. it's their business. this thread didn't start as a way to convince serotta or others how to change business, it started as a tie-in to hiring a super-brand marketing team and what appears to be a major gaff in the SE/GS approach. something is awry here, believe me. and it's not just a way to make more money, or avoid financial disaster. it's simply a poorly thought through marketing scheme with little flexibility from a company that preaches flexibility. it's not about saving every little penny either - but smart purchases through negotiations and optimized combo's.

[moondog-sparky]

last thought. the only thing that makes sense in the SE/GS packages is, as peter p suggests, cache. marketing hype. if that is truly the case from serotta and it's their goal, then why in the world hire that super exclusive brand team? i mean, there's already tons of fat cats buying these things with all the bells and whistles. exclusivity is achieved.

my guess is they want a broader audience, and specifically, get back to their race roots. not gonna do that with tons of exclusivity built in to keep their rich big-boys looking uber-cool with their mates. broadening their range of clients would be the antithesis of what they'd want then, right?! all you dudes with rolls of hundies would bail and chase the next "dream bike" that only a few can afford. i can't imagine for the life of me that's what a race heritage company like serotta really wants. it's something the current purchasers may have inadvertently created, but i betcha it's something ben and co. want to move away from, not towards. hopefully...

[ecl2k]

2008 Serotta marketing strategy key points

When price requested by a potential customer, the dealer will respond "If you have to ask... you probably can't afford it"
New slogan: It's not just a bike, It'S-erotta money
New dealerships in Beverly Hills, Paris, Monaco, and Dubai


But seriously you can probably find a custom fit, higher technology, lower weight, the finish you want, as well as more "street cred" AND serotta forum gallery admiration for less cash. Don't beg to be someone's customer.

[Sasha18]

With all respect, the length and repeated point of your posts really gives the appearance of trying to leverage serotta. That may not be your intent, but it is the appearance.

If you're so concerned about the paint, why not buy a fully "custom, flexible, etc" bike and buy it from smaller guy? Serotta may claim flexibility, but they are much, much bigger than any of the guys at the NAHBS. I understand you want carbon. How about Ruegamer, or Crumpton, or Parlee. Or just get the serotta, and strip the paint and have it redone.

[William]

It appears to me that Serotta is at that stage where it’s sink or swim time. They have grown to capacity with the company as we’ve known it, and now they have to decide when, where, and how they are going to make the leap to the next phase in their growth. What they are not is a true “custom” builder like Zank, Sachs, Vanilla, or any other of the fine builders that we know. Serotta is a bike manufacturer more in line with the big boy mass producers but with custom capabilities. I think we’ll see that the larger they get, the less custom options we’ll see available. It just won’t be cost effective for them to do…..as we are starting to see in some of their lines. Growth can be a double edged sword for the customer. Serotta will stay with the high end niche, but they will likely try to broaden some of the lines to attract a wider customer base. I don’t know if they are going to try and go after the race crowd like they used to, but at this point I don’t think that is likely to happen….though I hope they prove me wrong.

Like I’ve said before, I have a soft spot for Serotta that was forged in my racing days. But realistically, with where they are now, with the overly high price points (IMHO), I won’t buying a Serotta again in the near future. I perceive to get more value, better one on one service, and greater flexibility in options by going direct with a true “custom” builder. I wish Ben and Serotta the best in whatever direction they go. :beer:





William

[1centaur]

The GS/SE arrangement has simplified the model lineup, but perhaps in some cases has made it more complicated or impossible to "work the system" to get what you want for less. It simply brought frame costs a little more in line with what production costs actually are, AND WERE BEFORE THE CHANGES, such that it's economically viable to offer such a things as a less expensive GS version of some models.

This is a very interesting thread to me as a business analyst, not so much as a bike buyer. It's about cost accounting vs. customer expectations. A conflict has been revealed in this discussion: some Serottas cost way more to buy than some highly credible competitive bikes, so customers think there's a bunch of profit margin in which more customization must be possible. Serotta says its costs are much higher than we think, so such customization is a money loser. The OP argues persuasively and logically why this can't be so, but only Serotta knows its costs for sure. I really don't think the OP is trying to browbeat his way to a special deal; he is genuinely incredulous.

The one thing Brian Smith did not address was the warranty issue. Can the customer buy the frame at the GS level, send it to a third party for a repaint and keep the warranty? If not, then the advice to wait a year and send it to someone is not good advice. Also, why wait a year if the only way to keep the warranty is to have Serotta do a repaint? The OP should arrange to show up at the factory, take the frame in his hands, then hand it back to the factory and say, repaint it now, I'll pay. That would underline his point about the costs involved - they could have delivered the same end product to him for less cost (more profit) by not painting it the GS color in the first place! Cost accounting is sometimes more about art than science, and IMO the OP has correctly figured out that the way it has been done in this case is subject to rational questioning.

[Climb01742]

You can't lose.

1) Buy the GS, ride it for the season then send it back (or to someone else) for a custom repaint.
2) Step up to the SE, and get more custom tailored tube selection and *production love* along with your desired paint options.


brian, could you help me understand what the extra $2800 for the SE buys you? this is a sincere question. like many others here, i have a warm place in my heart for serotta. i want to believe that the extra $2800 is true value, things that are tangibly better. is it hand labor? is it paint? is it costlier tubes or joining process? when the GS is more expensive than almost any other builder's top frame, then it seems like a fair question what the extra almost $3k tangibly gets a customer. could you help here? thank you.

[DarrenCT]

Forget your story about you can "afford the paint". The problem is, you CAN'T afford the SE, because if you could, you'd buy it so you'd get the paint job you want. You are poor, and you are trying to rationalize the situation in your favor by placing the blame on Serotta. This is wrong.


harsh atmo

[soulspinner]

This is a very interesting thread to me as a business analyst, not so much as a bike buyer. It's about cost accounting vs. customer expectations. A conflict has been revealed in this discussion: some Serottas cost way more to buy than some highly credible competitive bikes, so customers think there's a bunch of profit margin in which more customization must be possible. Serotta says its costs are much higher than we think, so such customization is a money loser. The OP argues persuasively and logically why this can't be so, but only Serotta knows its costs for sure. I really don't think the OP is trying to browbeat his way to a special deal; he is genuinely incredulous.

The one thing Brian Smith did not address was the warranty issue. Can the customer buy the frame at the GS level, send it to a third party for a repaint and keep the warranty? If not, then the advice to wait a year and send it to someone is not good advice. Also, why wait a year if the only way to keep the warranty is to have Serotta do a repaint? The OP should arrange to show up at the factory, take the frame in his hands, then hand it back to the factory and say, repaint it now, I'll pay. That would underline his point about the costs involved - they could have delivered the same end product to him for less cost (more profit) by not painting it the GS color in the first place! Cost accounting is sometimes more about art than science, and IMO the OP has correctly figured out that the way it has been done in this case is subject to rational questioning.

You are right. My suggestion early on did not take into account warranty. Well thought out.

[Peter P.]

Moondog-sparky

I wasn't intending to offend YOU; I was trying to point out that MONEY IS THE ISSUE here and Serotta has clearly steered it's product line so that it's target customer base is clearly VERY upscale. The picture has CHANGED. Now there's a wall of greenbacks which prevents some of the kids from getting in the sandbox to play and the kids already playing are laughing at us.

Doesn't it make sense that you CAN afford a $5600 frame+a what, $1000 paint job, but you're NOT willing to spend $8400 to get that paint job? Sure, I agree with you that the difference in performance between the SE and GS is not going to reflect a %150 price difference so the savvy consumer (you) will keep the coin in his pocket and walk away with a perceived "deal".

Hey; I CAN afford a $1k paint job but I CAN'T afford a +$5k frameset; it must be Serotta's fault I can't own the Serotta I want, no? (That's sarcasm)

Sure; you're logic about the whole scheme makes sense and I agree you'd think you'd be able to PAY the upcharge and get the paint you want, but Serotta is trying to push you upscale to make the extra profit, so they limit the options at the low end. Makes sense to me, and I don't like it either even though I'm NOT in the market for a Serotta.

I suggest you tell them what you think by where you spend your dollars.

My original post was not meant as a personal attack but one that points out MONEY IS the limiting factor because if YOU or any of us, saw $8400 as chump change, we wouldn't quibble about Serotta's marketing and would just buy the Meivici SE to get the paint job we wanted, throw it in the back of our Ferrari (or have the butler do it) and drive away ;-)

[Sandy]

Forget your story about you can "afford the paint". The problem is, you CAN'T afford the SE, because if you could, you'd buy it so you'd get the paint job you want. You are poor, and you are trying to rationalize the situation in your favor by placing the blame on Serotta. This is wrong.

Splitting the options like this distinguishes the GS series from the SE, and savvy Serotta owners and admirers will recognize those that bought upscale. Those that buy upscale WANT the exclusivity of the paint schemes only available on the SE series and can afford it.

Yes; it's marketing to make you desire and possibly buy up a series and shell out the extra $2800. There are apparently enough people out there willing to pony up the extra cash to get the paint of their desires that Serotta and limit the GS series options and extend them of the SE series. Another way of looking at it is, paint may not be a real profit center and Serotta tries to limit those asking for custom paint by making it cost prohibitive to a larger percentage of buyers.

I'll presume Serotta's marketing people have analyzed things and determined this is the way to go to maximize PROFIT. That's what they're in business for.

The bottom line is you're too poor to afford the bike you want, because that's the one that comes with the paint you want.

Wow. Do you realy mean what you are saying? That is a rather harsh analysis and unreasonable, I think. You really have no idea what the financial status is of the OP. Clearly he probably is not poor ,as you say, because he is looking at a very high priced frameset. You are limited in understanding what criteria he uses to make a purchase.

I can afford either MeiVici. I bought the all steel Coeur D'Acier instead, with a standard paint job. I would never buy the MeiVici SE model because it is simply much more than I am willing to pay for any bicycle frameset. That is a personal decision. I considered the GS model but decided that was also more than I was willing to pay for what it offered. I decided to buy the least expensive (I think) custom road Serotta in its line. Does that make me poor? Nope. Would it make me rich if bought the SE model of the MeiVici? Nope. Who knows the financial situation of anyone, anyway? Who knows how one decides what factors to consider in a personal purchase?

Sandy

[Climb01742]

I'll presume Serotta's marketing people have analyzed things and determined this is the way to go to maximize PROFIT. That's what they're in business for.

peter, i would offer a subtle but i think crucial distinction: no truly great business tries to purely and simply maximize profit. to singlemindedly maximize profit is a very short-term goal to bleed a company dry, and in all likelihood screw a companies customers and employees. (NOT saying this is what serotta is doing AT ALL; simply making a business philosophy point; think about sadly too many buy-out situations where a purchased firm is milked into oblivion.)

the very best companies, IMO, seek a fair and reasonable profit. more profit is, of course, better. but there is always a balancing act. speaking for my own company, we are constantly weighing the cost/benefit of decisions that impact our ultimate profit margin. we, on a regular basis, "sacrifice" some profit to gain such things as higher quality, greater flexibility, customer satisfaction, employee morale, investment spending, and just the sense that it's the right thing to do.

profit is good. fair profit is better. but often maximum profit is, paradoxically, bad.

[Smiley]

"I can afford either MeiVici. I bought the all steel Coeur D'Acier instead, with a standard paint job. I would never buy the MeiVici SE model because it is simply much more than I am willing to pay for any bicycle frameset. That is a personal decision. I considered the GS model but decided that was also more than I was willing to pay for what it offered. I decided to buy the least expensive (I think) custom road Serotta in its line. Does that make me poor? Nope. Would it make me rich if bought the SE model of the MeiVici? Nope. Who knows the financial situation of anyone, anyway? Who knows how one decides what factors to consider in a personal purchase?"

Sandy's Quote from a guy that drives a Cayman to use as a grocery getter :banana:


+ 1000 , Serotta make LOTS of GREAT bikes at differing price points. I just don't get hung up on the Soup De Jour thing ( Carbone ). Steel for me has been more then real unless you could build me another Hors Categorie, maybe an Ottrott with a DKS rear end would do too.

[Sandy]

It simply seems to me that moondog-sparky is genuinely incredulous that Serotta, which is a custom bicycle builder, that is known for superb customer service, will not paint the bike as he wishes as he is most willing to pay for such. What also seems clear is that Serotta has determined that there are certain paint schemes that it is not willing to do for certain models, probably a function of paint production limitations/time allocations/overall efficiency in production of units/profitability.

What moondog -sparky most reasonably and articulately expressed simply does not mesh with how Serotta presently is producing bikes. Plain and simple.

Solutions:

1.moondog-sparky can buy the SE MeiVici, purchase elsewhere, or follow one of Brian's or other's suggestions. I doubt any of those would please moondog-sparky, at this time.

2. Serotta can make an exception to their policy to make a sincere and genuine potential purchaser a most satisfied and happy Serotta owner.

The latter choice seems the best way to go in this instance if Serotta would not be overly concerned about a precedent being set. It is but one bike and in the scheme of things one bike is meaningless if it helps produce a loyal Serotta customer.


Sandy

[Smiley]

Not going to happen, I bought my Ford Edge and wanted heated seats and for that I had to buy UP to the SEL Plus model where as I only wanted the SEL model without the other cr*p that comes with the Plus version. Americans are ued to being abused this way. Take it or leave it or just ride it and have it re-painted down the road anyway you want.

[Sandy]

Not going to happen, I bought my Ford Edge and wanted heated seats and for that I had to buy UP to the SEL Plus model where as I only wanted the SEL model without the other cr*p that comes with the Plus version. Americans are ued to being abused this way. Take it or leave it or just ride it and have it re-painted down the road anyway you want.

Ford produces a zillion units, using a highly efficient (I hope) large scale mechanized process. It is not known for customer service. Seotta produces a relatively small amount of bikes, is known for and communicates its custom building, is very much customer service oriented, genuinely being sensitive to and and caring towards its customers. Its production process is a much greater direct employee involvement, and probably more easily changeable. I think that it will happen. We may not know about it as it might be done quietly.


Silent Sandy

[deechee]

its funny how multiple times this thread has compared the billion dollar car industry to the xxx dollar bike or xx dollar serotta business? they're not the same. I'm sure there's very little automation in the bike biz...

my solution for heated seats? styrofoam. Yeah, I know. Wouldn't have believed it until some guy gave us two foam cutouts (kind of like that cheap sleeping bag padding) and threw it on our seats. Makes a huge diff on those -20C days.

[soulspinner]

There are places that will put heaters in front seats for 350 bucks, bottom and back cushions, leather or cloth.

I didnt realize you could upgrade the fork to an F-3 on a GS level frame hmmmm...

[William]

There are places that will put heaters in front seats for 350 bucks, bottom and back cushions, leather or cloth.

I didnt realize you could upgrade the fork to an F-3 on a GS level frame hmmmm...


I wanted heated seats on the Effin Cross Bike. I didn't want to pay $350 smackers so I came up with my own design.....

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_nov2004/HotSeat.jpg





William ;)

[Moveitfred]

All I gotta say is that I'm with William on this one. I'm awfully glad I fullfilled my Serotta fix about six years ago with a Legend. Thanks Serotta. Beautiful bike that's served me well. I'll be going with custom steel builders from now on.



Like I’ve said before, I have a soft spot for Serotta that was forged in my racing days. But realistically, with where they are now, with the overly high price points (IMHO), I won’t buying a Serotta again in the near future. I perceive to get more value, better one on one service, and greater flexibility in options by going direct with a true “custom” builder. I wish Ben and Serotta the best in whatever direction they go. :beer:

William

[William]

All I gotta say is that I'm with William on this one. I'm awfully glad I fullfilled my Serotta fix about six years ago with a Legend. Thanks Serotta. Beautiful bike that's served me well. I'll be going with custom steel builders from now on.

You know, I was wondering who that one person was who didn't have me on their ignore list. :D





William

[soulspinner]

I wanted heated seats on the Effin Cross Bike. I didn't want to pay $350 smackers so I came up with my own design.....

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_nov2004/HotSeat.jpg





William ;)


ROTFL :beer:

[Brian Smith]

Climb - I sent you a private response.

moondog-sparky - Thanks for the input, honestly. I hope you have resolution to the dilemma.

1centaur - There's no warranty intact after the third party refinish. Many warranty issues would show up before that time. Serotta has fair warranty practices. Your call. I like your idea about showing up with the frame in hand for a repaint. Money where the mouth is speaks more clearly and with insistence.

William - about 2/3 wrong, man. Sorry.

For this one thread, I'm out.

-Brian

[Lifelover]

... in a given month assuming 100 meivici's are sold. 1 month 1/2 are SE's - lots of complex paint jobs, and 1/2 are GS's -



100 Meivici's a month? Could that be even close?

I doubt they sell more than 300 frames a month total. No way 1/3 of their sales are Meivici's.

[Moveitfred]

You know, I was wondering who that one person was who didn't have me on their ignore list. :D

William

Tall guys who ride Zanks need to stick together.

[Sandy]

100 Meivici's a month? Could that be even close?

I doubt they sell more than 300 frames a month total. No way 1/3 of their sales are Meivici's.

I certainly hope that is true as I would think that a MeiVici is Serotta's most profitable model (not considering developmental costs). I know a decent number of Serotta owners and users but I have never seen anyone riding one. Otrrotts and Legends, but no MeiVicis. I certainly would not thnk that Serotta produces 100 MeiVicis a month. But maybe they do. I believe that the largest Serotta dealer sells a lot of them.


Sandy

[William]

Tall guys who ride Zanks need to stick together.



WORD brother! :cool:




William

[William]

William - about 2/3 wrong, man. Sorry.

For this one thread, I'm out.

-Brian


Well, I’ve never claimed to have the market cornered on what’s correct.

I’m just working off of what my perception is, and though I may be incorrect, I know I’m not the only one who holds a similar view. The thing about “perceived” problems from the customer standpoint is that: to the business in question…sometimes a perceived problem is worse than having the problem itself. Of course, that’s when the coach sends the marketing team into the game.


William (Who may or may not be talking out of his arse)

[Dan Le foot]

I certainly hope that is true as I would think that a MeiVici is Serotta's most profitable model (not considering developmental costs). I know a decent number of Serotta owners and users but I have never seen anyone riding one. Otrrotts and Legends, but no MeiVicis. I certainly would not thnk that Serotta produces 100 MeiVicis a month. But maybe they do. I believe that the largest Serotta dealer sells a lot of them.


Sandy

Hi Sandy
The only MeiVici I have seen in San Diego is at a LBS. (My wife test rode it and really was impressed) Its been in the shop for over a year. Also been trying to sell it on Ebay for many months without success. (best offer) I doubt if Serotta has sold 100 of these total. How many have you seen, Ken?ho.
BTW. Titanium is pretty much a dead issue around San Diego from what I can see. Anything that is carbon is selling briskly. Look, Specialized, Giant, Colnago and Trek among others. Steel is just beginning to re-emerge. But not for the $3000 price point that the CDA is being marketed for. The current Serotta lineup is missing the market imho. I bet the product line will look very different next year. The new brand management team is going to make a difference.
Dan