Chronic tired legs

[Jack Brunk]

I have a friend and good riding buddy who always has tired or fatiqued legs. What can be some of the causes? He'll rest them but he get's a heavy feeling in them once back at training. His he getting enough protein? He's very healthy in his late 40's.

Thanks

[coylifut]

I have a friend and good riding buddy who always has tired or fatiqued legs. What can be some of the causes? He'll rest them but he get's a heavy feeling in them once back at training. His he getting enough protein? He's very healthy in his late 40's.

Thanks

he should quit riding with you. your kicking his arse.
:no: :no: :no:

[capybaras]

He might need to get fatter.

[rustychisel]

this friend... is his name Jack? Does he own too many bikes?

[chuckred]

Let's face it - he's entering geezerdom like us - we need more recovery. Now that I'm seriously past 50 years into my childhood, I don't bounce back quite like I did even a few years ago.

Is he eating immediately after a hard workout - carbs and protein (4:1, right?).

One thing a friend of mine told me that seems to help alot is to elevate the legs for even just 15 minutes sometime shortly after a ride.

[regularguy412]

Sounds to me like he needs to 'build in' more regular off days.

I also think you may be on the right track with the nutrition. If he's not already taking a good multi-vitamin,, he might consider adding that to his daily regimen, as well..

Mike in AR:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

I have a friend and good riding buddy who always has tired or fatiqued legs. What can be some of the causes? He'll rest them but he get's a heavy feeling in them once back at training. His he getting enough protein? He's very healthy in his late 40's.

Thanks
here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.

[Jack Brunk]

this friend... is his name Jack? Does he own too many bikes?
Jack is ok and can only ride one them at a time. Isn't owning too many relative?

[brians647]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.

And, I'm guessing that you were single when engaging in this practice? I can just see my wife freaking out if I began doing this every day - looking something like this: :butt:

So, the real question is: why/how does this work? what does it do?

Wait, are you just messing with us again?

[Jack Brunk]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.
Richard thanks for the info. He complains that the heavy feeling is in his quads. Will the ice still help if it only covers up to the knee?

[Jack Brunk]

he should quit riding with you. your kicking his arse.
:no: :no: :no:
I wish that was the case. He's a strong rider but I'm tired of his complaining about his tired and heavy legs. Based on what he eats it seems he doesn't get enough protein. I wonder if some whey protein powder would help?

[DarrenCT]

he needs to "man up" and start pushing himself

ps: r u spiking his water bottles with whiskey?

[J.Greene]

I have 2 words....

Amp Energy Drink

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Richard thanks for the info. He complains that the heavy feeling is in his quads. Will the ice still help if it only covers up to the knee?
go in deeper - seriously.
either tilt the water or get a bigger holder.
at the stage races and on road trips, once
at the host hotel, i'd always comandeer the
biggest garbage cans i could find, jetison the
liner, get to the ice machine, and start the
party. for the record, i am serious.

[avalonracing]

More sleep... Seriously.

[Jack Brunk]

go in deeper - seriously.
either tilt the water or get a bigger holder.
at the stage races and on road trip, i'd always
comandeer the biggest garbage cans i could,
jetison the liner, get to the ice machine, and
start the party. for the record, i am serious.
You are the man and I am serious too.

[brians647]

I have 2 words....

Amp Energy Drink

JG

Damn, I wish it was that easy. I too have tired and heavy legs (although, we may be talking about different phenomena). I've always just been one to take a really long time to recover from hard workouts. I can work through that fatigue some days, but I reach a point.

[capybaras]

Can you substitute Advil for the ice?

[brians647]

And why/how does it work? Anyone know?

[Big Daddy]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.


no one here(except Jack) should have posted after thismo was said. Richie works it AND gets it.

[coylifut]

You are the man and I am serious too.

atmo's technique + swoops foam roller work (when warm of course) and you going a little easier on him will do it.

[Cary Ford]

tell your friend to start making a shake from plain greek yogurt, a big gob of peanut butter, some soy protein powder, a banana and some oj and drink that thing down right after he rides. either that or just slam a can of tuna while he's wading up to his nutsickles in his ice-bagged trash can.

[don'TreadOnMe]

If you've got to get the entire leg (and glutes too, why not?), use the bath tub.
Alternate a couple of times between the hottest water you can stand, and then the cold water. 15-20 minutes each, or until the water changes temp/gets easy to take.

[sailorboy]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.

yea, I used to do this too, except that it was called the Mad river in Waitsfield, VT.

seriously though, what e-richie is touching on here is called cryotherapy. or cold therapy. there are tons of scientifically-known benefits to it, and probably some mechanisms yet to be fully discovered. I think the overall anti-inflammatory benefits that it gives you are the biggest ones. Think back to a recent 'hard' ride when afterwards, I mean long after you cooled down, showered, ate etc, and you could still feel 'heat' in your body and especially the legs? That is what this helps with.

If the idea of a 30 minute freezing cold bath is too much to handle, tell him to keep his bathtub filled with warm (not hot) water and alternate 2 minute dips in the ice-cold, then the warm water and always start and end on the cold cycle. This is called contrast bath, and is also helpful for post-sports/training. The theory here is rapid dilation and constriction of blood and lymph vessels will sweep out the by-products of hard exercise or injury. Tell him to get some sports massage now and then also.

[shinomaster]

Maybe he just need a vacation. Send him to Portland. I'll take him for an easy ride and to a few bars. Just like I did w/ Darren.

[flydhest]

wow . . .flashback to college and being in the training room after track practice.

old school, baby. old school.

and effective, from my experience.

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.

[Climb01742]

baseball pitchers do the ice bath to their arms after games. and think how many times you've seen post-game, locker room interviews with b-ballers and they will have huge ice bags ace-bandaged to their knees, ankles or shoulders. patrick ewing comes to mind.

the one caveat i'll toss in is that my PT (who came to fame here in beantown for keeping larry bird playing as long as he did) says keep body part iced for 10 min max, then warm, then 10 more ice, repeat. FWIW, his opinion is after 10 mins straight, the effectiveness wanes. repeating the on/off is his advice.

[William]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.


Yes, "e" is on the right track here. Did that in cycling and crew. I've also found that wrapping your legs around an ice cold keg of beer works too. :beer:





William

[saab2000]

This is interesting advice. I have never done it and unfortunately no longer ride enough (not because I don't want to...) to get tired enough to get the benefits.

But when I was racing seriously this is something I would have tried. I was usually good for only 2 or 3 days straight at the top level and then I would fade rapidly even with proper eating.

Other than massage, what to pros do (besides 'enhanced preparation')? Do any pros do the ice water thing?

[flux]

Do any pros do the ice water thing?

I do daily fwiw. Ibuprofin helps too. Sounds like this guy needs a full blood test though...

[BumbleBeeDave]

this friend... is his name Jack? Does he own too many bikes?

Perhaps his legs are tired because his bikes are too heavy? too much weight to drag around? He should get lighter bikes . . . :p

BBD

[stevep]

another beneficial addition is to get those compression socks and wear them all day.

high ones that go way up the calves.

[Rover-Rich]

Yo Jack, tired and heavy while at rest or only while walking? How does he feel while riding the bike? Any other pains? What about other sports / activities causing problems?

This symptom could actually point to more a serious problems. PM if you want to talk offline.

RR

[Fixed]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.
he is not kidding
cheers

[Spicoli]

He has "4th gear syndrome". I am copywriting that too so no one try and steal it! Too much time around threshold up or down, chasing riding buddies around will knock off the 5th or 6th gears in the legs if you ignore your base when you start going harder. Base/volume rides should not be dropped when intensity picks up. Seriously though try this with the recovery aids others are recomending.

He is probably doing too much "intensity" w/out proper "recovery" on too little "volume". People (myself included) tend to throw out there volume aerobic rides when seasons start to pick up and this change, unless you have been racing bikes since you were real small will toss your legs a big curve that if ignored will ruin a season by making you play catch up. Trust me on this and get him to do ten days to 2wks of good endurance to low tempo rides depending on how blocked he is? For me thats at least 2hr rides of happy go lucky watch the birds and squirrels type riding in place of chasing buddy type rides. Not active recovery but good endurance fat burning aerobic stuff. His legs will freshen up and his anaerobic efforts will seem much easier after this. His snap will absolutley come back. Once he gets them back, go back to building or whatever phase of training he is looking for. ;)

It happens all the time and this is the fix that has worked for me. I have bounced this off of some other power junkies and it appears to be a good fix for many of us who ramp up too quickly.

Jeff

[scrooge]

...

[swoop]

step one: when was his last thorough check up with a really decent doc?

[Fixed]

bro what was it that the south african rider had in his legs ?
something to do with the veins oh yeah here it is


Ryan Cox, one of South Africa's top cyclists, died here early Wednesday three weeks after having an operation in Europe, his club Team Barloworld has announced.

South African Press Association (SAPA) reported that Cox, 28, died in the Kempton Park hospital around 5 a.m. local time Wednesday.

He had undergone a vascular lesion operation in France three weeks ago.

Cox returned to South Africa to recuperate, but his condition deteriorated Monday, and he was rushed to hospital after the main artery in his left leg burst Tuesday.

Clint Curtis, who coached the Barloworld rider when he was a junior, said Cox had been having problems with his left leg for some time.

'He sometimes lost the feeling in the leg after cycling and had little power in the leg towards the end of some races.

'Ryan then went to see one of the leading doctors in France. It was found that the artery had, as a consequence of all the cycling, become knotted as sometimes happens to a garden hose,' Curtis was quoted as saying by SAPA.

Curtis said cyclists face this problem because they spend so many hours on the bicycles, with their legs bent while pedalling.

'The doctor in France has performed surgery of this type on about 600 cyclists, among them Stuart O'Leary, who has worn the yellow jersey in the Tour de France,' he said.

cheers

[Jack Brunk]

Yo Jack, tired and heavy while at rest or only while walking? How does he feel while riding the bike? Any other pains? What about other sports / activities causing problems?

This symptom could actually point to more a serious problems. PM if you want to talk offline.

RR
I had a conversation with him last night about this very same thing. Most of the time his legs feel okay. His legs are stiff in the first part of the ride but fel better as the ride goes on. In the am they may be tired and if he does some hard stair climbing. feeling goes away within a minute or so after excertion. He does a lot of walking/running with no real issues. I asked him specificially where the issues are and he says that it's the quad muscle above the knee towards the inside of the leg. The rest of his legs feel fine. He thinks it's from overuse. I thought maybe diet might play a part.

I'll pass along all of your ideas.

Thanks

[cadence231]

another beneficial addition is to get those compression socks and wear them all day.

high ones that go way up the calves.
Si si.
I sport these. (http://www.supportplus.com/supportplus/Shop-By-Brand_AA/Futuro_AE/Item_Futuroreg-Firm-Support-Pantyhose_F62_ps_cti-AE.html)

Yes. I wear the girl ones. I wear them after I ride througout the day and in the day before a ride if I will be sitting around. They keep the waste products circulating throughout the body instead of pooling in your legs.

[shinomaster]

another beneficial addition is to get those compression socks and wear them all day.

high ones that go way up the calves.



Rustem said you wear pantyhose? Is that why?

[chrisroph]

tell him to take a rest week

[Kahuna]

Swoop is spot-on with this one. It could be something simple like the effects of lactic acid, or some underlying condition such as a vascular problem that he would be wise to rule out by seeing his doc.

-K

step one: when was his last thorough check up with a really decent doc?

[swoop]

the ice thing is the first thing i learned when i went to stage races with the experienced people. buy the big bags of ice.. fill the tub. take turns...
its like a legal (testosterone) patch. its also freaking cold.

i remember watching dave mccook at superweek go from the finish line to his van and immediately hit the foam roller right there in the parking lot. i'd bet five bucks he did the ice bath back at the hotel.

this is why its always important to room with a womens team whenever possible.

another recovery tip is to teach your dog to acquire language and to type and have the dog do your blogging for you. it saves tons of energy.
i'm here to help!


even team rock does it (ice baths) notice the universal ice bath facial expression. i challenge you to not make this face in a tub full of ice:

[swoop]

I had a conversation with him last night about this very same thing. Most of the time his legs feel okay. His legs are stiff in the first part of the ride but fel better as the ride goes on. In the am they may be tired and if he does some hard stair climbing. feeling goes away within a minute or so after excertion. He does a lot of walking/running with no real issues. I asked him specificially where the issues are and he says that it's the quad muscle above the knee towards the inside of the leg. The rest of his legs feel fine. He thinks it's from overuse. I thought maybe diet might play a part.

I'll pass along all of your ideas.

Thanks


weekly leg massage from a pro. it will change his life.

[WadePatton]

Cool, there's a creek and a river two steps from the race course Sunday. I could take a fishing rod and appear sane. ;)

found a nugget, not that I ever doubted Richie:

All cold water immersion protocols were effective in reducing thermal strain and were more effective in maintaining subsequent high-intensity cycling performance than active recovery.

[Louis]

At what point do the measures one takes to keep going at 110% (whole-body ice baths, sleeping in oxygen tents, taking HGH, whatever) cause you conclude that one is just asking too much of his / her body?

At some point you just have to acknowledge you're going too far. Where is that point, and how do you know when you're there?

[capybaras]

At what point do the measures one takes to keep going at 110% (whole-body ice baths, sleeping in oxygen tents, taking HGH, whatever) cause you conclude that one is just asking too much of his / her body?

At some point you just have to acknowledge your going too far. Where is that point, and how do you know when you're there?

Usually you find that point by the age of 35.

[brians647]

Usually you find that point by the age of 35.

Great. Too bad I didn't start racing until I was 36!

[M.Sommers]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.

Very simple and very smart stuffmo.

Also, professional massage is something I would get every day if I could afford it.

Stretch legs bigtime, like get on the floor and stretch to some cheesy video etc. No Richard Simmons though.

[capybaras]

Great. Too bad I didn't start racing until I was 36!

Hope you are liking the ice. :banana:

[Rover-Rich]

it's the quad muscle above the knee towards the inside of the leg. The rest of his legs feel fine. He thinks it's from overuse. I thought maybe diet might play a part.


That muscle is the VMO (vastus medialis obliquis). It is essential in maintaining good patellar tracking. Problems arise with weakness in this muscle. Despite being athletic and strong, slight imbalances in muscle groups can mean lots of issues. In addition to everything that has been said, have him try some quad sets / straight leg raises when doing his core workouts and I bet this will help.

Cheers.
:beer:

[thwart]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.
Local elite runner (woman, by the way) does this in a tub---whole body ice bath---and swears by it.

[William]

At what point do the measures one takes to keep going at 110% (whole-body ice baths, sleeping in oxygen tents, taking HGH, whatever) cause you conclude that one is just asking too much of his / her body?

At some point you just have to acknowledge you're going too far. Where is that point, and how do you know when you're there?


Well, I think it’s different for everyone. You have to know your bodies limitations = listen to your body.

For me personally, I’m a power rider with great endurance and quick recovery…..within a 2 -3 day period of balls out, repeated exertion. Beyond that my performance would start suffering. That’s why I was very good at crits and multi day events of two to three days. Week long plus stage racing just wasn’t my bag. I doubt that has changed…even though I’m much lighter without my appendix now. ;)





William

[cadence231]

Usually you find that point by the age of 35.

Exactly...at least that's what I've heard.
Must peceiver even @ 42!
Rust never sleeps!
ATMOPEDIA6.7d: "ALL I KNOW IS THAT I'D HAVE A VERY MUNDANE LIFE IF I WASN'T CONSTANTLY LOOKING AROUND THE NEXT CORNER FOR THE NEXT EPIPHANY. THEY COME MORE OFTEN ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE TIMELINE, BUT THEY NEVER STOP COMING. WHEN THEY DO, THE PARADE IS OVER." RICHARD SACHS

[WadePatton]

So I hit my legs with cold (well) water this morning after a moderate ride with a big climb on the end.

And even though it wasn't ice water--I did notice that the Tanita scale did the opposite of usual.

Instead of my post-shower body fat number being lower than the pre-shower version--it WENT UP .5%. That never happens. It usually drops a tad. Must be a blood flow thing...

Feeling pretty fresh too! :banana:

[kipjac]

here's what he does -
after every ride, and after he showers, he gets a tall kitchen waste basket
from rubbermaid (or similar) and he 1) fills it with at least 2 bags of ice, more
if available, and tops it off with water. sit on an upright chair and submerge
legs up and above (if possible) the knees. after the first ten seconds, he will
not feel the cold at all, and it will do more for his legs than anything you read
here. keep legs submerged until the water is no longer ice coldmo. normally
this is at least a half hour. i used to do this almost daily when i raced lots.
no charge for thismo.


This is good advice, and something I used to do when I ran cross country and my daughter currently does when she trains for cross country.

[Fivethumbs]

Many people overlook the necessity to properly cool down after exercise. I bet if he stretched his legs for 10 minutes or so after each ride his legs will feel better. After working out hard the muscles are pumped full of blood. If you just stop and either sit down or just go about your business, the blood sits in there, which contributes to poor circulation and "heavy" feeling muscles. Stretching the muscles after a workout as part of cooling down regimen helps pump the blood out of the muscles keeping the circulation working properly. The worst thing to do is to get back from a hard ride and just plop down on the couch.