2009 Dura Ace 7900. Discuss...

[flux]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_da09_rumours_mar08

Do these rumors make you want the new Shimano?

What about the new group seems interesting/appealing to you?

What seems like hype?

[roman meal]

(sound of crickets chirping)

[e-RICHIE]

maybe i make reap after 09 atmo.
use led firstmo.

[dirtdigger88]

the hoods look cool- I dont know if I care if the cables are hidden or not-

compact cranks and 28t doesnt hurt

lighter stiffer yada yada yada - you will never feel that

oh and its new- thats cool too . . . maybe I'll need to put 7900 on my 2010 bike

Jason

[saab2000]

Well, I am sure it'll be expensive. But at least it's ugly!

Yeah, it'll be the standard of the world for performance. But those hoods ain't lookers.

[MalleyNogo]

I want it. The release of this group will dictate when I purchase my next road bike.

Concealed cables and more robust shifting through longer cable pull are the advantages for me.

The quick connect link is nice but I really hope they improve chain life.

New cranks are an exercise in branding. They will look noticeably different from the 7800 version.

[coylifut]

seems that every major Dura Ace launch comes with improved shifting. the new cable routing is a non starter as far as i'm concerned, but some will like it. 20% stiffer crank-set. Likely hype. Shifting that's less sensitive to cable contamination, a good thing.

[roman meal]

Those hoods are spidermanesque.

Uses these web shooters to reel in breakaways.

[coylifut]

Well, I am sure it'll be expensive. But at least it's ugly!

Yeah, it'll be the standard of the world for performance. But those hoods ain't lookers.

you are looking at the electronic shifters. I think. The spy shots of the mechanical look too much like SRAM for there not to be a law suit.

[mschol17]

The expensive part won't be the group, but the new bike you need to buy that integrates the battery, rd wires, etc.


Or, you can just use a lot of zip ties.

[bcm119]

Hidden cables... thank god. Who could possibly ride a bike with the cables showing?

[e-RICHIE]

2009 shimano team mechanic atmo -


http://www.taranakicareers.co.nz/careers/images/20050712181906/electrician_reading.jpg

[Jack Brunk]

2009 shimano team mechanic atmo -


http://www.taranakicareers.co.nz/careers/images/20050712181906/electrician_reading.jpg
Does Shimano make a road group? Discuss.

[rwsaunders]

More power to technology but won't it bother most people to look at a bunch of zip ties organizing your drivetrain? It's starting to look like a cable management system in an office cubicle. There has to be a better integration of the electronics in the works.

[T.J.]

electronic shifting....umm yeah no. i cant ever remember to charge my Gramin, no way i'd remember to charge my bike :rolleyes:

[Big Daddy]

e-shifting=no
e-richie= yes

better looking=no
carbon levers= yes

battery pack= not on your life
concealed cables= 'bout effin' time

[Tobias]

The mechanical system looks good, but will reserve judgment until I see in person -- my guess after Interbike. Not sure I'd try electric the first year.

It's about time a wide-ratio cassette is offered for the road. An 11-28 may offer more gearing options -- for me will depend on mid-range jumps.

[tbushnel]

electronic shifting....umm yeah no. i cant ever remember to charge my Gramin, no way i'd remember to charge my bike :rolleyes:

Hey, maybe they can use a schmidt dyno hub? :D
ted

[flux]

My first thought was. "wow. cool. robots on my bike."

[ergott]

The important thing for me is the flatter tops. I really don't like the feel of riding in the hoods as much as Campy. Hidden cables are nice. The rest is just blah blah for me.

[soulspinner]

20% stiffer from an already light alloy crank is doubtful unless its heavier or its useful life decreases. Faster shifts. Yesterday I rode my chorus 10 bike and wondered how shifting any faster would help. In a race I could see how shifting quieter might. All this high end stuff is so good nobody can convince me the improvements are that significant. Of course I havent raced since pre indexed shifting so what do I know...

[Chris]

Supposedly the crank is going to have thinner walls too? I guess I am complacent. I like the current version of durache, and the hoods don't bother me much. I actually like the cables out there. I like the gear window, and I like the extra stability the cables offer me when I am pulling my Jackie Durand and turning the screw on my suicide break...

[TimD]

.

[Chris]

It didn't have a tenth gear

[swoop]

i like seeing things evolve...

[pdxmech13]

...Will Brendan and Co. be able to post the news again ?

[ergott]

20% stiffer from an already light alloy crank is doubtful unless its heavier or its useful life decreases. Faster shifts. Yesterday I rode my chorus 10 bike and wondered how shifting any faster would help. In a race I could see how shifting quieter might. All this high end stuff is so good nobody can convince me the improvements are that significant. Of course I havent raced since pre indexed shifting so what do I know...


A gain of 20% when dealing with such fractional differences is easy. Given the % error of the weights of any given component, that should nullify 20% just as easily.

[MilanoTom]

The hoods are looking more and more like video game joysticks. Pretty soon, we'll find out that the electronic shifting is controlled by swivelling 'em.

I'm more interested in seeing what the redesigned Ergo levers look like.

Tom

[CarbonCycles]

Always nice to see technology progress; however, I'm a believer in form following function. I struggle to understand the function with the e-system; maybe it's a great thing for time-trials and tri-geeks with nice buttons to push rather than levers. As for the average-joe, sounds like a great thing to show-off at the group ride...i just hope you can take the ribbing when your batteries die in the middle of a long ride.

[stevep]

My first thought was. "wow. cool. robots on my bike."

j,
i will be on the moped shifting w/ the remote.

c'mon, pedal you baby;

the perfect application.

s

[swoop]

e system.. self trimming. it might feel really good.

[victoryfactory]

It didn't have a tenth gear

"Why don't we just make 9 the highest?"
"But this one goes up to 10"

Dialogue from the new "Spinal Tap" cycling movie sequel "Power Tap"

VF

[Dave B]

.

[Chris]

I personally think that electronic shifting is doomed from the start. Yes it is a novelty, and yes there will be people who get it a'la the Mavic iterations, but wide-spread acceptance? I don't buy it.

[davids]

Those hoods are spidermanesque.

Uses these web shooters to reel in breakaways.Spiderman wasn't my thought. Just that the hoods looked very happy to see me.

...Crisper shifting, shorter throws, less weight, better ergonomics. Sure. What's not to like?

But I'm in no hurry to upgrade. I barely notice my Ultegra 10 gruppo. What don't I like about Ultegra 10? Umm... Longish throw to shift up in the front, I guess. What could be improved (different than what I dislike)? Shifts could be crisper, brakes could be stronger.

I think that electric shifting could work well someday. No way would I buy first (or probably second) generation products, though. It's got to be functionally better than the mechanical stuff, and just as reliable. Otherwise it's a gimmick.

[Grant McLean]

Electronic isn't new to shimano....

It's easy for the road crowd to forget that shimano has been selling electronic
Nexus auto-D shifting internal hub drivetrains since 1999. The Auto-D is
way more complicated than the Dura Ace electric. It's been in use all over
the world coming up on a decade! It's funny that road riders think their
needs are "special", :)

I don't think shimano will be selling "1st generation" e-dura ace. It's been in
development for at least 5 or 6 years, and I would think it's not the original
design that's coming to market.

That said, I probably would have complained when Bob Dylan went electric too.


-g

[sg8357]

My first thought was. "wow. cool. robots on my bike."

The DS can shift for you now based on your heart rate, no more sandbagging
on the climbs. Phil Liggett will get text messages every time you shift.
Hacker-Domestiques will drop you to the small chain ring during the sprint.

Scott G.
Dura-Ace runs MS-Vista for Bikes, only 20 minutes to boot.

[stevep]

The DS can shift for you now based on your heart rate, no more sandbagging
on the climbs. Phil Liggett will get text messages every time you shift.
Hacker-Domestiques will drop you to the small chain ring during the sprint.

Scott G.
Dura-Ace runs MS-Vista for Bikes, only 20 minutes to boot.


i would love to have a watts monitor of even hr monitor that would send signal 20',
when i pace riders ( notably tim johnson ) at times there is considerable effort expended to "fake" intense effort. thereby softening up the beating and making me feel bad about the punishment.
i could read whether he ( esp ) is lying to me... and faking it.
i will, however, never complain about his effort in races...
this combined with remote shifting... i would have a great time punishing him back...

[Elefantino]

What's to prevent — and I am actually being somewhat serious here — someone from developing an electronic shifting "jammer" that would fry the guts at the start of a climb?

And are cable shifts so imprecise as to require an electronic solution?

Is the disappearance of the chain/derailleurs next (think internal for the pros), or would that be too weight prohibitive?

And why does atmo's post conjure up Mickey Rooney in a kimono, bad wig and false teeth in Breakfast at Tiffany's?

[RPS]

I hope Shimano hasn't given up on a racing triple; although talk of a DA-specific compact and 11-28 cassette may mean they’ve done just that.

[swoop]

What's to prevent — and I am actually being somewhat serious here — someone from developing an electronic shifting "jammer" that would fry the guts at the start of a climb?

And are cable shifts so imprecise as to require an electronic solution?

Is the disappearance of the chain/derailleurs next (think internal for the pros), or would that be too weight prohibitive?

And why does atmo's post conjure up Mickey Rooney in a kimono, bad wig and false teeth in Breakfast at Tiffany's?


this becomes a philosophical debate rather than a piece of gear. cables moved by levers versus wires sending electricity... as if it means something. the bottom line is functionality.

you know.. snipers could hide in the mountains and shoot the rider's air filled tires. these arguments get foppish. nothing is threatened here. one more choice is being offered. it may be sublime. it may not. you pick what you like.
its been coming for a good long time and it might be great thing. the market will determine it.
the early word is that its instantly addictive and you'll want it.

one starts to think its as if people think some meaning is being lost here. don't give us options or progressions.
i have a secret.. have you noticed that components and bikes have been getting better over the years?

ok.. intervals in the hills.. where is my sony walkman? those tiny ipods are evil.

[davids]

That said, I probably would have complained when Bob Dylan went electric too.

-gNow that's just stupid! ;)

p.s. Have you ever seen the footage from his Newport '65 performance? It's completely killer.

[Grant McLean]

p.s. Have you ever seen the footage from his Newport '65 performance? It's completely killer.

I truely wonder what i would have thought at the time.
Hindhearing isn't the same thing.

Lots of fans hated Coltrane for changing styles too.

-g

[davids]

I truely wonder what i would have thought at the time.
Hindhearing isn't the same thing.

Lots of fans hated Coltrane for changing styles too.

-gWell, I fell in love the first time I saw the Ramones play. Never heard of them before. Changed my life. So, I figure that puts me on the correct side of every cultural moment where I failed to show up... ;)

[Grant McLean]

Well, I fell in love the first time I saw the Ramones play. Never heard of them before.

baggage free is the best way to travel
but not many of us can do it. ;)


-g

[BumbleBeeDave]

What's to prevent — and I am actually being somewhat serious here — someone from developing an electronic shifting "jammer" that would fry the guts at the start of a climb?

Would I be able to get a modified RC airplane control box that would let me sit by the roadside and remotely shift their gears as they go by, with assuredly hilarious results? Better yet, could I remotely command their bikes to lower their shields so as to allow one well-placed photon torpedo to settle the matter once and for all?

Now THAT would be cool!

(I assume Viper is already hard at work on this option.)

BBD

[nm87710]

Looks like the 7900 changes are defensive and trying to stop RED defections.

lighter weight
crisper, faster, less finicky shifting
better gearing options
hidden cables/redesigned flatter hoods
etc.

SRAM caught Shimano napping...

[stevep]

you gotta see grant get off the plane.
toothbrush in hand.
he wears 4 sets of clothes.
each day he rotates them.
green shirt outside one day, red one the next, etc.
funny to watch but the 4 prs of underwear always puzzled me..i just figured he was canadian and they all did it up there.



baggage free is the best way to travel
but not many of us can do it. ;)


-g

[CarbonCycles]

In response to someone's concern:

"Reliability is also likely to be Shimano's primary reason for using a wired setup instead of a wireless one."

So, no chance of hacking here unless you plan to carry an EMP generator with you.

[stevep]

pleeeze.
they have been in continuous development of these products for the last 40 years. shimano is like a real company- they actually make the stuff.
this is the next iteration. better, lighter, etc.
nothing to do with sram.

the amazing thing is that it has taken sram 10+ years to come up with road product in the face of the fact that the road business has been booming and the mt bike business slowing since about 1996.

im not putting down sram but dont exaggerate the importance of a few hundred road groups.


Looks like the 7900 changes are defensive and trying to stop RED defections.

lighter weight
crisper, faster, less finicky shifting
better gearing options
hidden cables/redesigned flatter hoods
etc.

SRAM caught Shimano napping...

[BdaGhisallo]

would love to have a watts monitor of even hr monitor that would send signal 20',

Hey SteveP,

This is possible with an SRM setup. They have transponder units that they give certain riders in the Tdf and the Tour of Germany and they display the output on the tv screens and on the web in real time. Prolly ain't cheap though?

[BdaGhisallo]

A lot of this discussion over the past month or so about Shimano reacting to SRAM and how Campy can't really react, at least in OEM terms, has got me wondering about the output of these companies.

Anyone have a rough idea about how many DA groups Shimano sells a year, including OEM? What about Campy Record and Chorus? How many Red groups is SRAM planning to sell?

Any insights?

thanks,
Geoff

[Grant McLean]

the amazing thing is that it has taken sram 10+ years to come up with road product in the face of the fact that the road business has been booming and the mt bike business slowing since about 1996.


i think Sram were busy for a few years trying to keep their rear derailleurs
from exploding ;) That distracted them for a while

the only reason Sram got a retail foothold at all was becuase shimano mis-steped
with the paddle type sti mtb levers.

Shimano is a better company these days, offering lots of options. Shimano
even makes a road front derailleur with a 28.6 clamp. Imagine that atmo.

-g

[BumbleBeeDave]

So, no chance of hacking here unless you plan to carry an EMP generator with you.

. . . that could be arranged. I know people . . . :cool:

BBD

[CarbonCycles]

. . . that could be arranged. I know people . . . :cool:

BBD

Mental note to self..do NOT piss off BBD unless i want the men in black to show up at my door.

[stevep]

A lot of this discussion over the past month or so about Shimano reacting to SRAM and how Campy can't really react, at least in OEM terms, has got me wondering about the output of these companies.

Anyone have a rough idea about how many DA groups Shimano sells a year, including OEM? What about Campy Record and Chorus? How many Red groups is SRAM planning to sell?

Any insights?

thanks,
Geoff

shimano sells something like 20,000 da groups aftermarket and i dont know how many oe... probably 3 times that in the usa.
campy probably sells 2,000 record groups aftermarket and basicly none oe...maybe a couple of hundred ...
sram is new and has delivered very few red groups. their output is very, very small and will take some time to build...depending on demand.

these are estimates. they do not include grant mclean in canada.
he adds another 7 record groups

[Grant McLean]

these are estimates. they do not include grant mclean in canada.
he adds another 7 record groups

actually, i've bought 2 dura ace 7402 groups and a 7700 group with BR600 brakes
in 2008, that should be messing up the numbers!

-g

[stevep]

actually, i've bought 2 dura ace 7402 groups and a 7700 group with BR600 brakes
in 2008, that should be messing up the numbers!

-g

canada doesnt count g.
sorry.

what the heck is the 7700 group for?

[dirtdigger88]

Grant is my hero- he has inspired me -

I have a almost new 7700 group (going on my JKS) and a BRAND NEW 7410 . . for my Sachs unless the 7900 look like more fun

I may as well own 7900 then I could say I have owned one of each Dura Ace from AX to 7900

do I get a prize

I didnt think so

jason

[Big Dan]

7700 is one sweet group.

[Grant McLean]

what the heck is the 7700 group for?

Sumgui named D Kirk, ever hear of him?

(let's get ready to Rrrrrrrramble!!)

-g

[wc1934]

"What's to prevent — and I am actually being somewhat serious here — someone from developing an electronic shifting "jammer" that would fry the guts at the start of a climb?"


Wasn't there some sort of similiar problem with the old mavic electronic shifters where another bike would actually pick up your signals and respond to that command?

[maunahaole]

The big problem with wireless won't be so much people developing jammers and other nefarious acts, but the unintended stuff that is bound to result from the sheer amount of low power microwave RF that there is flying around. Look at how often you hear interference on cell phones, when your wireless cycle computer inexplicably drops connection.

It just raises a question to me about how they will link all of the systems to work on one bike and still prevent crosstalk from the bike or bikes that may be right next to you. It's not as though there is going to be an abundance of RF spectrum devoted to shifters so that it won't be a problem.

[manet]

i hate computers... wish we were POSTING letters back and forth to each other.


ps _ is that karin kirk in the serotta ad to the right of my screen?