American made? Can it be done????

[William]

So, if you use your Bush bucks to buy an American made frame, how many parts can you actually put on it that are MADE in America?? Manufactured somehere else and assembled here doesn't count.


Can it be done?





William


PS: Question comes out of Dvs's thread on the "American Economy comedy".
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=42543

[rwsaunders]

Once you get past the Chris King headset and hubs and the Thomson seat post and stem, you are SOL.

[M.Sommers]

How many steel frames made in America are made of steel from America? So sad, we used to be the best at steel. Then Franco Harris retired. Anyway, I love Italian frames. My Michelins for the car were 'Made in USA', dunno about their bike tires/tyres.

[97CSI]

- Stem & seatpost - Moots, Dean and a few other bespoke Ti and Thomson.
- BB, headset and hubs - PW & CK.
- Wheelsmith for wheel parts - do they do rims? Zipp and a few other high-end made in the U.S.
- Shifters, FD, RD, cranksets, pedals, saddle, tires, tubes - all from either Europe (Campy, Mavic, Conti, Michelin, TA, Stronglight, etc.) or Asia (Shimano, SRAM, FSA, DiaCompe, etc.). Reynolds carbon in Mexico?
Please add to the list of U.S. manufacturers......if possible.
Am thinking that there are probably more U.S. makers of bike parts today than there has ever been. While Rock Shox and a couple of others have gone, historically, bike parts have primarily come from overseas.

brakes/hubs:

PAUL COMPONENT ENGINEERING
11204 MIDWAY
CHICO, CA 95928

[dbrk]

- snip....
- Shifters, FD, RD, cranksets, pedals, saddle, tires, tubes - all from either Europe (Campy, Mavic, Conti, Michelin, TA, Stronglight, etc.) or Asia (Shimano, SRAM, FSA, DiaCompe, etc.). Reynolds carbon in Mexico?
Please add to the list of U.S. manufacturers......if possible.
Am thinking that there are probably more U.S. makers of bike parts today than there has ever been. ...snip...

Some will recall that once upon a time Paul Components made rear derailleurs (I don't recall if they made fronts). They sell for fancy prices on eBay when they turn up, about the same as hen's teeth. It was the scale of production that made them more trouble than they were worth to make but they also didn't perform to the expectations of those using Shimangnolo.

As far as I know, all tubes are made overseas. So, no global trade, no bicycles.
dbrk

[BUTCH RIDES]

you might be able to do it with a fixed gear bike
butch

[jemoryl]

Some will recall that once upon a time Paul Components made rear derailleurs (I don't recall if they made fronts). They sell for fancy prices on eBay when they turn up, about the same as hen's teeth. It was the scale of production that made them more trouble than they were worth to make but they also didn't perform to the expectations of those using Shimangnolo.

As far as I know, all tubes are made overseas. So, no global trade, no bicycles.
dbrk

Where is the True Temper steel produced? I thought that was from the US?
The sticker on my Easton Aluminum frame proclaims 'Made in the USA', but maybe that is just the sticker?

[sspielman]

Cannondale was sourcing aluminum tubes from Alcoa.....allegedly from the US...

[e-RICHIE]

why does this matter atmo? even if it could be done,
wouldn't the fact that machinery and parts from foreign
vendors dampen the dealmo? even if it's made here, the
software and tools to make it likely aren't.

[dbrk]

Cannondale was sourcing aluminum tubes from Alcoa.....allegedly from the US...

First, I'm not all that interested in bits nationalism. I'm also not casting aspersions but I have seen a number of bikes and bits that are sold vigorously as US made only to discover that it's not so. Perhaps Alcoa makes their tubes here. My point is not to wear a flag lapel pin but to point out the dissimulation.

The amazing thing to me is not where parts are made now but how many folks in the past made parts and how few do now. (Note: Ignore this thread drift, please...) There were once dozens of makers of derailleurs, even very small companies, many of whom with their own notions of how they should operate and with different engineering notions of how to accomplish that task. Mike Barry has shown me lots of these examples. What's interesting about how things work now? Even if it's "better"? Riding with the bike's engineering is part of the fun for me, which is why I have a Paris-Roubaix changer, Cyclo 4, and other oldschool stuff that's...hmmm....still not US made.

dbrk

[William]

why does this matter atmo? even if it could be done,
wouldn't the fact that machinery and parts from foreign
vendors dampen the dealmo? even if it's made here, the
software and tools to make it likely aren't.


It’s just a question.

The thought came up in a different thread and I decided ask it in a cycling specific way. Nothing more, nothing less. No nationalistic bashing intended.




William

[rphetteplace]

It’s just a question.

The thought came up in a different thread and I decided ask it in a cycling specific way. Nothing more, nothing less. No nationalistic bashing intended.




William

e-richie is just a little bent as he is shifting all his bicycle production to the hands of 8 year old girls in Shanghai :banana:

[Sandy]

why does this matter atmo? even if it could be done,
wouldn't the fact that machinery and parts from foreign
vendors dampen the dealmo? even if it's made here, the
software and tools to make it likely aren't.

American jobs?


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

It’s just a question.

The thought came up in a different thread and I decided ask it in a cycling specific way. Nothing more, nothing less. No nationalistic bashing intended.




William
none assumedmo.

[e-RICHIE]

American jobs?


Sandy
gee i never thought about thatmo.

[Sandy]

gee i never thought about thatmo.

Well now that you have, will you give me a job working side by side with you building your bikes?? :rolleyes:


65 cents/hour Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Well now that you have, will you give me a job working side by side with you building your bikes?? :rolleyes:


65 cents/hour Sandy
i can'tmo -
i understand you are from european descent.
get me?

[saab2000]

Are titanium tubes made in the US?

[97CSI]

Making steel and drawing it into seamless tubing are two distinctly different processes. Two of the largest 'draw mills' are in PA, with a third being in DE, but none makes the steel boule that is the starting point. Does anyone know if Columbus, Dedaccai, Reynolds and/or TrueTemper actually runs their own steel mill? Carpenter Technology makes a bunch of the specialty steels that I've worked with in the past (semiconductor manufacturing), but does not run their own draw mill. Based on the cost and economics of running a steel mill, makes me wonder if Reynolds and the rest don't simply buy their formulations from the larger steel mills, like Carpenter and Sandvik, and do only the drawing, forming and swagging into the double/triple/whatever butted tube sets folks build from.

Edit: Just got on Reynolds website and it is simply a bunch of marketing BS. Doesn't give any real info so cannot tell if they make their own steel, or not.

Ooops......looked a bit more closely and they don't make their own starting materials. They buy it in.

Like the Chevy I drive (42K trouble-free miles with good economy and comfort), it is about jobs and our country.

[Ti Designs]

Some will recall that once upon a time Paul Components made rear derailleurs


The down fall of the Paul Components derailleur wasn't the fact that american made can't compete, it was what they saw as the goal for the component. To install the derailleur you needed a 5mm allen wrench, a 4mm allen wrench, a 3mm allen wrench, a 2.5mm allen wrench, a 2mm allen wrench and a tweezers!!! They made a mountain bike derailleur that needed a tweezers to work on - mountain bike stuff should be servicable with a rock. They thought that CNC machined, colored annodized, servicable to a fault, and cool looking were the driving force behind the american made derailleur. Look at Shimano or Campagnolo, they think that working is the driving force behind their components. Mavic had the sense to pull Zap and Mectronic from the market rather than throwing good money at an non-functional design. The bottom line is the stuff has to work. If I had two bikes, one had my 9-speed Dura-Ace, the other had this cool looking stuff that worked 20% of the time, which bike would I ride?


I could head down to my machine shop and crank out a copy of a working derailleur. It would weigh more, be less reliable, have non-interchangable parts with the rest of the world and be butt-ugly, but I could do it. Bike parts aren't rocket science. Campy and Shimano have been watching eachother, ripping off designs and passing money back and forth for licencing (mostly going Shimano's way). Shifter design, brake caliper design, bottom bracket and crank design... Maybe we're just too dumb to see it.

[M.Sommers]

We make:

1). Hamburgers
2). French fries
3). Fast food
4). Obesity
5). Heart disease
6). Diabetes
7). Stuff you see on tv and the big screen too (yet even Battlestar Galactica is made in Canda)
8). Sick people who need pieces of paper signed by a Dr. so they can get medication
9). Cute girls who work at CVS and Walgreens to supply the medications based on the little piece of paper
10). Darren says there are several good American brewed beers

[97CSI]

Are titanium tubes made in the US?Don't recall the builder, but he will build you a Ti frameset out of U.S. or Chinese Ti tubing. Chinese is about $1K less expensive. Based on toys and pharma coming from China over the past few years, I wouldn't worry about the tubes from China. Especially when flying down the mountain at 50mph (or, in your case, flying through the air at 500knots).

[dauwhe]

Is it a bad thing if someone in Italy orders a frame from Richard Sachs? Is it important that the builder of your bike parts speaks the same language as you, and eats the same things for breakfast?

What if the factory in China was owned by your beloved sister-in-law, and all the workers were relatives of yours?

My bike's frame was designed in Seattle. The frame was built by a different company in Oregon. The fork was made in Seattle, but painted in Oregon. I have no idea where the steel came from. The parts came from all over the world (well, four continents, at least).

I think what makes me feel good about the bike is having some sort of contact or connection with the people who made it. I've ridden with the designer. I was sad to hear that one of the owners of the company that built it is fighting cancer. I've seen a picture of the woman who sewed the handlebar bag in France. I've read interviews with the folks in Japan who made the handlebars--it seems like a cool place! I had it built up at a shop (by someone I've ridden with) 100 miles away, because I felt more of a connection to them than to my LBS. I don't feel quite the connection with the people who made the rear derailleur, but I think that has more to do with (1) my lack of knowledge and (2) the fact that they are a much larger company than with their being in Japan.

It's quite the tangled web of emotions that we associate with these metal bits!

Dave

[saab2000]

Don't recall the builder, but he will build you a Ti frameset out of U.S. or Chinese Ti tubing. Chinese is about $1K less expensive. Based on toys and pharma coming from China over the past few years, I wouldn't worry about the tubes from China. Especially when flying down the mountain at 50mph (or, in your case, flying through the air at 500knots).

Airplanes are not generally made of Ti tubes, or at least not what we think of in the bicycle sense. They are still mostly aluminum. And they are tested to outrageous standards. http://youtube.com/watch?v=pe9PVaFGl3o&feature=related

I was just wondering if the Ti tubes used by the well-known Ti builders were US made. Simple curiosity and nothing more than that.

[Sandy]

My saddle bag contents-
1. Bontrager tube- Made in Taiwan
2. C02 cartridges- Made in Austria
3. Park Tool Patch Kit- Made in Taiwan
4. Saddle Bag- Made in Malaysia.
5. Hurricane Quick Start C02 Inflator- Made in ?
6. Ascent Mini Tool- Made in?
7. Change and bills- Made in USA



:) :) Made in the USA by My Mommy And MY Daddy Serotta Sandy :) :)

[jemoryl]

..... Carpenter Technology makes a bunch of the specialty steels that I've worked with in the past (semiconductor manufacturing), but does not run their own draw mill. Based on the cost and economics of running a steel mill, makes me wonder if Reynolds and the rest don't simply buy their formulations from the larger steel mills, like Carpenter and Sandvik, and do only the drawing, forming and swagging into the double/triple/whatever butted tube sets folks build from.......

Carpenter definitely has some role in the production of Reynolds 953 stainless. Don't know about the rest of the Reynolds lineup; in the old days they were part of Tubing Industries (TI), which was a UK industrial group that did a lot more than just bike tubes.

[davids]

Whatever happened to all those cowboys and farmers?

Not as many horses in the streets, either.

[Climb01742]

import/export. two-way street, yes?

[Grant McLean]

Alcoa.....allegedly from the US...

ALuminum Company Of America

-g

[sspielman]

ALuminum Company Of America

-g


...yeah...but then again there is American Classic components...Scott USA bicycles....etc.....all manufactured everywhere BUT the United States....

[97CSI]

Airplanes are not generally made of Ti tubes, or at least not what we think of in the bicycle sense. They are still mostly aluminum. And they are tested to outrageous standards. http://youtube.com/watch?v=pe9PVaFGl3o&feature=related

About 2/3s of the Ti used today goes into aircraft. The last sentence below is probably the most interesting. The other 1/3 probably goes into Campy Record parts. ;)

Background
The high strength and low density of titanium and its alloys have from the first ensured a positive role for the metal in aero-engine and airframe applications. It is difficult to imagine how current levels of performance, engine power to weight ratios, airframe strength, aircraft speed and range and other critical factors could be achieved without titanium.

Aircraft Engines
Titanium alloys capable of operating at temperatures from sub zero to 600°C are used in engines for discs, blades, shafts and casings from the front fan to the last stage of the high pressure compressor, and at the rear end of the engine for lightly loaded fabrications such as plug and nozzle assemblies.

Airframes
Alloys with strength up to 1200MPa are used in a wide variety of airframe applications from small fasteners weighing a few grams to landing gear trucks and large wing beams weighing up to 1 ton. Currently titanium makes up to 10% of empty weight of aircraft such as the Boeing 777.

[Dave B]

I like bikes!

[saab2000]

About 2/3s of the Ti used today goes into aircraft. The last sentence below is probably the most interesting. The other 1/3 probably goes into Campy Record parts. ;)

Background
The high strength and low density of titanium and its alloys have from the first ensured a positive role for the metal in aero-engine and airframe applications. It is difficult to imagine how current levels of performance, engine power to weight ratios, airframe strength, aircraft speed and range and other critical factors could be achieved without titanium.

Aircraft Engines
Titanium alloys capable of operating at temperatures from sub zero to 600°C are used in engines for discs, blades, shafts and casings from the front fan to the last stage of the high pressure compressor, and at the rear end of the engine for lightly loaded fabrications such as plug and nozzle assemblies.

Airframes
Alloys with strength up to 1200MPa are used in a wide variety of airframe applications from small fasteners weighing a few grams to landing gear trucks and large wing beams weighing up to 1 ton. Currently titanium makes up to 10% of empty weight of aircraft such as the Boeing 777.

In my statement, I had not taken into account aircraft engines. But yes, they do indeed include large amounts of titanium.

I stand corrected.

[WadePatton]

Well I personally prefer to seek out and support the folks who have endeavored to persevere by keeping their production "on-shore". Their products are rarely cheaper, but often (not always) better than the competition and I LIKE having the option. It means different things to different folks and nothing to some.

Too many aspects of our consumerism have been piled into one heap--with no options...like this computer or that phone or the car.

It's conscious consumerism for me.

[J.Greene]

Made in America. (http://www.victorybicycles.com/) Frame, drivetrain, rims, tires, spokes, saddle, bar, hubs. The whole bike is made in the USA.

JG

[cpg]

Making steel and drawing it into seamless tubing are two distinctly different processes. Two of the largest 'draw mills' are in PA, with a third being in DE, but none makes the steel boule that is the starting point. Does anyone know if Columbus, Dedaccai, Reynolds and/or TrueTemper actually runs their own steel mill? Carpenter Technology makes a bunch of the specialty steels that I've worked with in the past (semiconductor manufacturing), but does not run their own draw mill. Based on the cost and economics of running a steel mill, makes me wonder if Reynolds and the rest don't simply buy their formulations from the larger steel mills, like Carpenter and Sandvik, and do only the drawing, forming and swagging into the double/triple/whatever butted tube sets folks build from.

Edit: Just got on Reynolds website and it is simply a bunch of marketing BS. Doesn't give any real info so cannot tell if they make their own steel, or not.

Ooops......looked a bit more closely and they don't make their own starting materials. They buy it in.

Like the Chevy I drive (42K trouble-free miles with good economy and comfort), it is about jobs and our country.


You are correct. Reynolds draws the tubes but the raw materials come from other suppliers. Same is true of Columbus and Deda. I don't know about True Temper. They may have their own mill because True Temper is a much larger company (bike tubing is only a small portion of the overall company) than the others but I doubt that they do. Regarding 953 Reynolds buys the material from Carpenter. Reynolds manipulates the material to their spec. I don't know if 953 comes in as plate stock and Reynolds rolls and welds it or if Carpenter does that or perhaps another vendor does. Since Reynolds historically hasn't made seamed tubes I doubt that they do the rolling and welding of 953. Unless they made a huge capital investment but that would be odd given the rest of their line of tubing is seamless.


Curt

[97CSI]

If I read your post correctly, 953 is not a seamless tubing. I find that amazing. By comparison, rolled and welded tubing is considered inferior. Wonder why they don't simply draw it down like the carbon steels or the stainless used in the semiconductor industry? Rolled and welded is also quite simple and not an expensive process. All automated (just like the draw mill). The starting boule for drawn-seamless is about 1-2 feet in length and about 2-3" in diameter before drawing. Makes 100s of feet of smaller, thin-walled tubing. Many drawing steps drives the price compared to thinning a sheet by rolling and then running through a mandrel to make tube shaped and welding. Typically these last two steps are done in a single pass.

[Dino]

So once you do figure out your all American-made bike, you are going to have to dress yourself in something off-shore. I don't think a single helmet of any kind is made in the US...? Riv has their "MUSA" stuff...not sure if that includes anything made of materials from this century though...

Interesting project. (no nationalism...just interesting)

[gdw]

supposably manufactures their tubing.

[jemoryl]

So once you do figure out your all American-made bike, you are going to have to dress yourself in something off-shore. I don't think a single helmet of any kind is made in the US...? Riv has their "MUSA" stuff...not sure if that includes anything made of materials from this century though...

Interesting project. (no nationalism...just interesting)

I have a '90s Bell helmet that was made in the US. One would think that you could still mould a piece of styrofoam with a shell in the US and make a profit selling it at $150.

My newish Louis Garneau helmet is made in Canada, so almost.....

[cpg]

If I read your post correctly, 953 is not a seamless tubing. I find that amazing. By comparison, rolled and welded tubing is considered inferior. Wonder why they don't simply draw it down like the carbon steels or the stainless used in the semiconductor industry? Rolled and welded is also quite simple and not an expensive process. All automated (just like the draw mill). The starting boule for drawn-seamless is about 1-2 feet in length and about 2-3" in diameter before drawing. Makes 100s of feet of smaller, thin-walled tubing. Many drawing steps drives the price compared to thinning a sheet by rolling and then running through a mandrel to make tube shaped and welding. Typically these last two steps are done in a single pass.

Most likely that's the only way they can get the material. I do know drawing 953 is tricky business and challenges Reynolds' manufacturing capabilities. They've gone through a steep learning curve. The early tubing wasn't that close to spec but now it is much more so. It seems Columbus is not as far along that learning curve. Perhaps rolled and welded is considered inferior in your line of work but I don't think all of industry feels that way. Rolled and welded tubes are used a lot within various industries.

Curt

[97CSI]

Perhaps rolled and welded is considered inferior in your line of work but I don't think all of industry feels that way. Rolled and welded tubes are used a lot within various industries. CurtPrimarily where short-term price is the prime driver and not long-term quality. How many buyers will know that 953 is rolled & welded rather than seamless drawn? And of that 10% who do, how many will own the bike long enough to care about long-term quality? Very few.

[e-RICHIE]

i was unaware that rolled and welded was an inferior
way to make tubes (for framebuilding). it might have
been the case before the reagan years, but i think that
when true temper came on board, it paved the way
for this method to be accepted. ya kinda sorta don't
really care which way the tube is made as long as it's
up to specmo.

[dannyg1]

Here's an idea: A 953 built frame, via an American custom builder, built up as an 8 speed hybrid, with these components:

Precision Billet (or Paul) Front Deralleur, Rear Derailleur and grip shifters.
Jeff Jones H'bar stem combo.
Paul, Machinetech or Phil Hubbed wheels.
Matrix rims.
Topline cranks on a Phil BB.
American Classic ti seatpost with a Selle Anatomica saddle.
American Classic or CK Headset (original version).
Phil, Onza or Sampson pedals.
Boone Ti Chainrings and cassette.
Ti2 Racing Brakes.
Machinetech, Avid, Paul or Precision Billet CNC canti brakelevers.

An almost 100% USA made build with index shifting.

Danny

[swoop]

i don't know if this is a ridiculous and obvious thing and therefore shouldn't be asked, but...

does manufacturing always employ citizens in greater number than importing?
dock workers are people too. so are import companies.

how many gainfully employed hands touch that globally produced frame versus our imaginary all american one? we're nothing if not a portage nation.

[Grant McLean]

Here's an idea: A 953 built frame, via an American custom builder, built up as an 8 speed hybrid, with these components:

Precision Billet (or Paul) Front Deralleur, Rear Derailleur and grip shifters.
Jeff Jones H'bar stem combo.
Paul, Machinetech or Phil Hubbed wheels.
Matrix rims.
Topline cranks on a Phil BB.
American Classic ti seatpost with a Selle Anatomica saddle.
American Classic or CK Headset (original version).
Phil, Onza or Sampson pedals.
Boone Ti Chainrings and cassette.
Ti2 Racing Brakes.
Machinetech, Avid, Paul or Precision Billet CNC canti brakelevers.

An almost 100% USA made build with index shifting.

Danny

u r going to need some tires and tubes...

-g

[rwsaunders]

If I read your post correctly, 953 is not a seamless tubing. I find that amazing. By comparison, rolled and welded tubing is considered inferior. Wonder why they don't simply draw it down like the carbon steels or the stainless used in the semiconductor industry? Rolled and welded is also quite simple and not an expensive process. All automated (just like the draw mill). The starting boule for drawn-seamless is about 1-2 feet in length and about 2-3" in diameter before drawing. Makes 100s of feet of smaller, thin-walled tubing. Many drawing steps drives the price compared to thinning a sheet by rolling and then running through a mandrel to make tube shaped and welding. Typically these last two steps are done in a single pass.

From US Steel's handbook:

Dimensional Control. Welded tubing is produced from strip that is rolled to an exact size, then slit to the required width for welding. The result is a tube with a uniform wall thickness and excellent concentricity.

Seamless tubing originates from an extruded tube hollow. This process results in a tube that is much less concentric than a welded tube. The redrawing process does little to improve the concentricity. If the wall thickness of the original tube varies by 10 percent, the wall thickness of the finished, redrawn tube is likely to vary by about 10 percent too.

However, modern extrusion presses give manufacturers better control over the concentricity. Also, the use of a pilgering operation before redrawing can improve concentricity. These advances mean that if seamless tube is manufactured with modern equipment and processes, its concentricity approaches that of welded tubing.

Welds and Weld Defects. Historically, many considered seamless tubing to be the better option for drawing because techniques for producing a high-quality welded tube were not well-known and some types of weld defects were difficult to detect. Welded tube's advantages—superior concentricity and low

Welding technology has improved and so has the confidence in the integrity of welded-and-drawn tubes. The issue of undetected welding defects is less important now than it was in years past. The cost differential still is an advantage.

[cpg]

i don't know if this is a ridiculous and obvious thing and therefore shouldn't be asked, but...

does manufacturing always employ citizens in greater number than importing?
dock workers are people too. so are import companies.

how many gainfully employed hands touch that globally produced frame versus our imaginary all american one? we're nothing if not a portage nation.

For me, it's not really where things are made but under what sort of circumstances that thing is made under. Read working conditions. Now I buy plenty of cheap stuff that is made in China/India/whatever country currently has cheap labor. What I try to avoid buying/supporting are things that I'm more picky and passionate about. Read bikes. It doesn't bother me that price point bikes are made with cheap labor. What does bother me is when so called high end bikes are made with cheap labor. The conditions under which those bikes are made preclude any attempt at truly producing a high end product.

Curt

[sspielman]

For me, it's not really where things are made but under what sort of circumstances that thing is made under. Read working conditions. Now I buy plenty of cheap stuff that is made in China/India/whatever country currently has cheap labor. What I try to avoid buying/supporting are things that I'm more picky and passionate about. Read bikes. It doesn't bother me that price point bikes are made with cheap labor. What does bother me is when so called high end bikes are made with cheap labor. The conditions under which those bikes are made preclude any attempt at truly producing a high end product.

Curt

I couldn't agree more.....Very well stated.

[swoop]

For me, it's not really where things are made but under what sort of circumstances that thing is made under. Read working conditions. Now I buy plenty of cheap stuff that is made in China/India/whatever country currently has cheap labor. What I try to avoid buying/supporting are things that I'm more picky and passionate about. Read bikes. It doesn't bother me that price point bikes are made with cheap labor. What does bother me is when so called high end bikes are made with cheap labor. The conditions under which those bikes are made preclude any attempt at truly producing a high end product.

Curt


so no american agricultural products for you? my point is .. what is the point? where is the line? i always think that for the best of intentions.. the absolutes are never what they seem. it is a global economy. the paste wont go back in the tube.... but it can be driven by conscious consumers.
its just as a consumer... i'm willing to overlook a lot to get a low price.

[cpg]

so no american agricultural products for you? my point is .. what is the point? where is the line? i always think that for the best of intentions.. the absolutes are never what they seem. it is a global economy. the paste wont go back in the tube.... but it can be driven by conscious consumers.
its just as a consumer... i'm willing to overlook a lot to get a low price.


Agricultural products are something I take quite an interest in too. Usually purchasing locally grown and organic. I shouldn't have quoted you because it probably looked like I was disagreeing with you. I completely agree that there is a line but it's not a straight one and the shape of that line is quite individual. I too purchase cheap stuff. I think we're on the same page. You don't buy cheap bikes or even high end bikes that are made cheaply. But I bet you look for a bargain when buying something like socks. Not including bike socks of course.

Curt

[Ozz]

Fly-pal could explain it better....but the issue is "comparative advantage"

From "Wealth of Nations" - "If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage."

We don't make steel or other commodities here cuz other countries can make it cheaper....the cost of making it "cheaper" is a whole 'nuther issue.

The key is to keep finding industries in which we have an advantage.....

[WadePatton]

I too purchase cheap stuff. ...

Curt
Buy cheap stuff and you get cheap stuff.

Less is more.

[Vancouverdave]

For me, it's not really where things are made but under what sort of circumstances that thing is made under. Read working conditions. Now I buy plenty of cheap stuff that is made in China/India/whatever country currently has cheap labor. What I try to avoid buying/supporting are things that I'm more picky and passionate about. Read bikes. It doesn't bother me that price point bikes are made with cheap labor. What does bother me is when so called high end bikes are made with cheap labor. The conditions under which those bikes are made preclude any attempt at truly producing a high end product.

Curt
Curt and all, I have seen "Made in China" on Kestrel and Cervelo frames over the last few years.

[Karin Kirk]

.. what is the point? where is the line?

For me the point is that I only vote at the polls once a year, but I vote with my dollars daily. So I support what's important to me.

The line depends on if a local alternative is available and if I can afford the alternative. If so, I buy US/local/organic/whathaveyou. If not, I really consider if I need the item in the first place; maybe I just skip it. Or maybe I buy it; it depends what it is and how righteous I'm feeling at the moment. :rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

For me the point is that I only vote at the polls once a year, but I vote with my dollars daily. So I support what's important to me.


thanks Karin! You reminded me why I just rode home from work in the pouring
rain, wind in my face, and soaking feet. Now I actually feel good about it!

:)

-g

[Karin Kirk]

thanks Karin! You reminded me why I just rode home from work in the pouring
rain, wind in my face, and soaking feet. Now I actually feel good about it!

:)

-g


You're awesome! Have some ice cream! :beer:

[DarrenCT]

Buy cheap stuff and you get cheap stuff.

Less is more.

exactly

i dont wanna know what kinda $ i spend on good beer each year

[shinomaster]

exactly

i dont wanna know what kinda $ i spend on good beer each year


How much did you spend in Portland? Hey did you ever see Downtown?

[maunahaole]

Do you have to go to downtown Portland to get beer?

[WadePatton]

For me the point is that I only vote at the polls once a year, but I vote with my dollars daily. So I support what's important to me.

The line depends on if a local alternative is available and if I can afford the alternative. If so, I buy US/local/organic/whathaveyou. If not, I really consider if I need the item in the first place; maybe I just skip it. Or maybe I buy it; it depends what it is and how righteous I'm feeling at the moment. :rolleyes:
Thanks Karin--you have a nicer way of saying what I'm feeling. So +1 !


now where's the ice cream? :D

[DarrenCT]

How much did you spend in Portland? Hey did you ever see Downtown?

hmmm i have no clue. with the hotel probably over a grand. with the flight/car service, probably 2k. this will be a fawking expensive bike!