Bicyclists the problem in Bay Area: Discuss

[konstantkarma]

Bay area accidents (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Health/2008/03/22/bicycle_accidents_a_concern_in_bay_area/3562/)

[e-RICHIE]

Bay area accidents (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Health/2008/03/22/bicycle_accidents_a_concern_in_bay_area/3562/)
what does konstantkarma thinkmo?

[Grant McLean]

Media does like to use the "war" metaphor don't they?

What these stories don't EVER say is that drivers are cyclists,
and cyclists are drivers too...(for the most part) so, what does
that mean? We're at "war" with ourselves?

Somehow, I don't see the majority of accidents being caused by
cyclists who are running stop signs and plowing into cars on the other
side of the intersection... so what's this story really about?

Nothing more than creating a narrative where there isn't one....

-g

[sevencyclist]

Yes, there are crazy drivers, and there are crazy cyclists. The reports seems very biased towards "advocates' view." Advocates for whom? The drivers who wishes to run over cyclists because some cyclists break law?

Excessive speed of cyclist a problem? How many accidents are caused by cyclists going over speed limit? Police officer crossing double yellow line and killed 2 cyclists riding on the shoulder on the right side of the road two weeks ago is a problem of cyclists breaking law?

A cyclist running stop sign does not give a driver the right to run over another cyclist. When a cyclist is not following the law, then that cyclist is at risk of being involved in accident. But unfortunately many people tend to think that cyclist gives the driver the right to run over all other cyclists. My neighbor happens to have that view, and everytime he sees me, he complains about cyclists. Human tendency to stereotype seems to be a very bad trait.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . concerning institutional bias against cyclists in so many areas, especially by law enforcement, I would want to see more reliable "evidence" than simply who the investigating officer assigns blame to. I really don't have much faith any more in the judgment of police officers as to who would really be "at fault" in a car/bike collision.

In fact, I would assign this very short and incomplete story to the category of "institutional media bias," since the story mentions "increasingly aggressive drivers" but goes no farther in exploring a problem that to me would be even more serious. The story paints the cyclists as being the problem, when it would seem that "increasingly aggressive drivers" in huge hurtling hunks of metal pose a much larger danger to cyclists, pedestrians, and other drivers. This story is yet another that has the undertone of assuming cars have more right to the road than bikes do.

BBD

============


Health
Bicycle accidents a concern in Bay Area
Published: March 22, 2008 at 5:25 PM

SAN FRANCISCO, March 22 (UPI) -- Bicyclists in and around San Francisco are increasingly failing to follow basic road regulations, bicycle and safety advocates say.

The advocates say Bay Area bicyclists tend to run stop signs and lights on a regular basis and when paired with increasingly aggressive drivers, the lack of restraint is placing cyclists at risk, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Saturday.

"There is a juggernaut out there -- the tension between the cyclists and the drivers is so high that it's become a war," triathlon coach Marc Evans said.

An analysis conducted by the Chronicle found that among the 33,000 collisions involving a bicycle in the Bay Area in the last decade, a bicyclist was more likely to be at fault than a driver.

Bicyclists were found to be responsible in 1,165, or nearly 60 percent, of the crashes, while drivers were tabbed with the responsibility in 520 crashes or 26 percent overall.

The Chronicle said related data showed that bicyclists traveling at unsafe speeds were the main cause of accidents prompted by the bicyclist.

[Erik.Lazdins]

There are more non-cyclist drivers than cyclists so they are the majority and this article illustrates that.

Just as many speak before thinking, some write before thinking.

I'll head out for my afternoon ride today just the same.

Ride well!

[Grant McLean]

I'm trying to see things from a different perspective, and trying to find
the middle ground, where a discussion could take place on an adult level.
maybe some article could tackle the issue of why responsible car drivers
sometimes leave their judgement at home when they ride their bicycles...

-g

[mhc]

There is something missing from articles like this.

There are two entirely distinct populations of cyclists in the Bay area, and probably everywhere else. One kind (on $4000 bikes and wearing lycra) thinks of itself as part of traffic, and basically obeys the rules of the road. Yes, they sometimes blow through stop signs, but mostly they are pretty predictable. The other kind (on $50 bikes and wearing street clothes) thinks of itself as fast pedestrians. They ride on the sidewalk, in crosswalks, on the wrong side of the road, weaving through traffic. They pay little or no attention to traffic laws.

I wish that articles like this could distinguish between these two populations, because I suspect they have very different accident rates, and probably different kinds of accidents.

[BumbleBeeDave]

There is something missing from articles like this.

There are two entirely distinct populations of cyclists in the Bay area, and probably everywhere else. One kind (on $4000 bikes and wearing lycra) thinks of itself as part of traffic, and basically obeys the rules of the road. Yes, they sometimes blow through stop signs, but mostly they are pretty predictable. The other kind (on $50 bikes and wearing street clothes) thinks of itself as fast pedestrians. They ride on the sidewalk, in crosswalks, on the wrong side of the road, weaving through traffic. They pay little or no attention to traffic laws.

I wish that articles like this could distinguish between these two populations, because I suspect they have very different accident rates, and probably different kinds of accidents.

We have the same two populations here and I imagine from what I've seen out on the streets that there would indeed be a huge disparity between the accident rates.

BBD

[BURCH]

MHC makes a great point about different types of cyclist, but I have seen many group rides where the adrenaline gets going and a pack buzzes thru a red light or stop sign (causing cars to wait at a green light). Never will a group ride hit the sidewalks or go the wrong way though, but both groups are guilty of blowing lights and stops signs. I would never blow thru a red light on a solo ride, but in a pack I have done it.

[zap]

Somebody help me. I'm tired. Tough ride today.

33,000 collisions in the last decade involving a bicycle.

Bicyclists were found to be responsible in 1,165, or nearly 60 percent, of the crashes

Drivers were tabbed with the responsibility in 520 crashes or 26 percent overall.

Whutz up with the other 31,000+ crashes?

What do they mean by cyclists traveling at unsafe speed?

And let's make one point clear. Automobiles are weapons that can kill. Treat drivers that hit pedestrians and cyclists and bladers and whatever else accordingly. Automatically at fault with severe penalties if other road participants didn't break some traffic law as I believe they still do in countries like Germany.

I've seen far to many cases where motorists kill a cyclist and gets of with little punishment.

[Buzz]

We have the same two populations here and I imagine from what I've seen out on the streets that there would indeed be a huge disparity between the accident rates.

BBD

I do civil defense work and I always end up with the bike cases in our office. Of the last 10 bike cases only 2 were with recreational lycra clad riders. The rest were guys on beater type bikes. The typical accident is riding the wrong way on a street. Jumping off a sidewalk into a crosswalk or attempting to cross a street at the wrong place. The most common accident, at least in an urban setting, is a car door opening.

[Erik.Lazdins]

?

that's not a very nice thing to say

sorry for trying to see things from a different perspective, and trying to find
some middle ground, where a discussion could take place on an adult level.

maybe some article could tackle the issue of why responsible car drivers
sometimes leave their judgement at home when they ride their bicycles...

-g

Grant,
I like your post just before mine, yet am bugged by the article.

No offense intended.
E

[majorpat]

I think I read somewhere about the difference between "cyclists" (presumably bikers like us) and "people on bikes". Who knows how the statistics breakdown when you apply those definitions.
It doesn't really matter, however, as we all get lumped together, remember the "cyclist" who hurled an explosive at the recruiting office in NYC.
Also, I don't know the scene in San Francisco but I am sure there are many more competitive cyclists than in Syracuse, which may be why the paper chose to write the story.
Regardless, although I like to "claim my territory" when riding and don't want to back down to a driver, I have found that it is probably most advantageous for remaining alive and in one piece to use common sense and try to avoid roads/situations/groups that will place me in a bad position. Discretion certainly is the better part of valor.
I love the bike, just not sure if I'm ready to be a martyr for itmo.

[paczki]

A lot of the fixed gear "riders" in Boston ride like complete idiots. One nearly broke my wrist a month and a half ago, it still hasn't healed. I hardly ever see cyclists obeying the law, although I hardly ever see motorists or pedestrians obeying the law either. But fortunately cyclists and pedestrians are not ensconced in 2,000 pound hunks of metal. That seems the difference -- the damage done to a cyclist is always worse.

[konstantkarma]

what does konstantkarma thinkmo?

Really, I wasn't just trolling.

When I see these stories, and hear people discuss the fact that cyclists run stop signs etc., I think that, yes some cyclists do break traffic laws. However, the consequences are not nearly as great as they are with automobiles. If you consider the fact that cars far outnumber all other form of pedestrian traffic (including bicycles), and that drivers commit the vast majority of traffic transgressions, then it amazes me that story such as this finds its way to print. How about a reporter sitting next to a stop sign, and doing an interview with the 1 out of 10 drivers who actually stopped AT the sign. Now that would be a story!

[eddief]

riding a ways behind some team-looking group of 8 riders. narrow, no shoulder winding road up behind the Claremont Hotel. The group was making no effort to go single file and cars were backing up behind them. I stopped, got off my bike for a couple of minutes and let them all go ahead to fight it out. a lot a bikers are arrogant jerks. viva la rear view mirror and using it to see the pissed off drivers waiting behind you to run your arse over.

oh, pardon me, i'm too cool to wear the mirror or look behind to see what's going on back there. i drive a car too and those guys piss me off too.

[swoop]

its also just as likely that the folks in cars insurance company's had better lawyers than the folks on bikes.
statistics are fun. you can make them serve you.

[e-RICHIE]

Really, I wasn't just trolling.

When I see these stories, and hear people discuss the fact that cyclists run stop signs etc., I think that, yes some cyclists do break traffic laws. However, the consequences are not nearly as great as they are with automobiles. If you consider the fact that cars far outnumber all other form of pedestrian traffic (including bicycles), and that drivers commit the vast majority of traffic transgressions, then it amazes me that story such as this finds its way to print. How about a reporter sitting next to a stop sign, and doing an interview with the 1 out of 10 drivers who actually stopped AT the sign. Now that would be a story!
sorry - i wasn't suggesting you were. i was interested in hearing your
pov since you broached this. now, i have - thanksmo. i heard about the
story the day it happened and followed the report(s) and video feed on
the local affiliates using online links. it sucksmo. i haven't paid much
attention since, but i did peruse mionske's piece on velonews dot com.
it's good atmo. i have nothing to add to this except i've had a pal die
after a car nailed him, and my wife aka the lovely deb has been hit twice,
and i have been hit once. and only yesterday i narrowly missed getting
hit again when some women backed out of her driveway onto the street
i was riding on, and she did it at a speed that included no warning for me
as i was not on her mind. i skidded to a halt and only saved it because
of my riding skills. some kid delivering papers would have been under the
back of her volvo wagonmo. at that moment she became my enemy for
life, and it took her a mini-second to realize that she was not aware of
her driving actions until it was too late. she drove to the corner before
her discretion made her stop at the red sign. i rolled up to her and the
passenger window was already open and she was giving me all sorts of
"i'm sorry i wasn't thinking" stuff, and my only reaction was to fill her
and her volvo full of my thoughts about her driving, and my life, and the
complete vulnerability of anyone with lesser riding skills than myself. and
every other word out of my mouth was fock this and fkuc that and she
could keep her fkcuing "i'm sorrys..." to herself because she's lucky i
didn't need an ambulance. cars are not my enemy, but any driver who
gets in my space and causes me to have a personal jesus moment, is
my enemy gonna get a permanent imprint by dint of my opinions about
his/her driving skills.

the cupertino incident is a shame.

[konstantkarma]

I joined the League of American Bicyclists because I was interested in supporting an organization that lobbies in favor of a rational approach to mixing cars and bikes. Over the past few years there seemed to be a schism in the organization; those that wanted separate but equal (?) transportation alternatives for cyclists (e.g bike lanes, MUTs), and those wanting to raise awareness, and to lobby local governments and district attorneys to enforce laws as they exist, and support a peaceful coexistence. I favored the latter, and it seems the League has begun to concentrate their efforts in this direction.

I encourage cyclists to support organizations looking to make cycling safer.

Are there other organizations making a positive impact in this way?

[Skrawny]

Today (in San Francisco) I had a driver make a sudden right turn in front of me without signaling. I screached to a stop and yelled at him to use his signals.

A pedestrian then yelled at me to stop running stop signs.

I was stopped at the stop sign when he yelled at me.

A lot of people don't like us out there, and logic is not part of it.

-s

[DukeHorn]

I got a walk sign on El Camino at the BBC in Menlo Park on Thursday . Was about to step out on the street when some "commuter" (with nice gear) blasted by me and took a right turn on the red. In fact, I paused because he didn't look like he had any inclination to stop because his turn-over rate was increasing. He certainly didn't look to his left to see if cars were in the intersection (or he assumed he would beat them by not slowing down). I'm not sure what the stat is on when a cyclist hits a pedestrian, but I'm pretty sure the pedestrian will get pretty messed up.

There are times when I get frustrated by fellow cyclists and their disregard for basic traffic safety. Let's not excuse the morons out there.

[toaster]

The people who I know who are non-cyclists that have voiced opinion or made comments in varying contexts seem to say that, since the bicyclists don't obey the same law as we as motorists have to then the bicyclists don't deserve any respect.

Furthermore, it seems, the motorists seem to dislike the bicyclists because they believe the cyclists are going to make them part of an accident someday that will cause them great guilt because only the cyclist will end up injured and they resent that possibility.

Now, all that said, does anybody think that motorists will slow down, consider the bicyclist, give him/her more space, or allow their progress in the car to be the least bit affected by the presence of a bicycle?

The problem really is one of perception. Let's say that instead of bicycles we replace them with moms pushing babies in strollers. We got moms and strollers on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in the shoulders on highways, and running stop signs and red lights in groups of many moms and strollers.
In that scenario, do the motorists practice consideration and patience or at some point do they rise up to wage war on the rising tide of moms pushing babies in strollers?

It seems a violation against human nature for motorists to treat moms and strollers in the same way they act towards bicyclists.

[konstantkarma]

I got a walk sign on El Camino at the BBC in Menlo Park on Thursday . Was about to step out on the street when some "commuter" (with nice gear) blasted by me and took a right turn on the red. In fact, I paused because he didn't look like he had any inclination to stop because his turn-over rate was increasing. He certainly didn't look to his left to see if cars were in the intersection (or he assumed he would beat them by not slowing down). I'm not sure what the stat is on when a cyclist hits a pedestrian, but I'm pretty sure the pedestrian will get pretty messed up.

There are times when I get frustrated by fellow cyclists and their disregard for basic traffic safety. Let's not excuse the morons out there.

No. You are correct. Let's not excuse anyone who plays around with other people's lives and well-being.

[konstantkarma]

Today (in San Francisco) I had a driver make a sudden right turn in front of me without signaling. I screached to a stop and yelled at him to use his signals.
A pedestrian then yelled at me to stop running stop signs.
I was stopped at the stop sign when he yelled at me.
A lot of people don't like us out there, and logic is not part of it. -s

I agree. I sometimes think that cyclists are disliked by motorists because we look like we are having fun, and because we remind them of the exercise they should be getting. This psychology may be subconscious, but I think there is resentment in seeing others having "fun". Am I way off base here?

[BUTCH RIDES]

due care
Definition
Degree of care that an ordinary and reasonable person would normally exercise, over his or her own property or under circumstances like those at issue. The concept of due care is used as a test of liability for negligence. Also called ordinary care or reasonable care.
if you run a stop sign it does not give a car driver the right to run you over if he can stop .
b.

[CA Dreamin']

Here's a more complete article, which I think is the basis for the first article/link at the beginning of this thread. More than 380 comments at the bottom of the page.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/22/MNU3VOB22.DTL

[AndreS]

Obviously, this is a hugely complicated issue, and there is a lack of good data to work from.

In regard to the article: not very enlightening - looks like filler to me. As others have pointed out, I'd view the "data" presented in the article skeptically. The word "fault" is a loaded term, and I'd like to see the accident reports reviewed independently against an agreed-upon definition before I used the data to draw any conclusions. The distinction between recreational cyclists and those using bicycles for transportation is also important. Any article that is purportedly based on statistics regarding auto-bicycle accidents should elucidate this.

In a more general sense, the conflict between cyclists and motorists is complicated by regional differences as well. For example, my personal experience has been that law enforcement personnel have been willing to give me (the cyclist) the benefit of the doubt when it comes to accidents involving autos. I've read other reports that show that this can be vastly different in other areas.

Causes are another area of discussion. Is there a general breakdown in the "social contract", caused by the loss of "community" (people are more likely now to work far from home) that causes people to treat others with more disregard on the road? What is the effect of vigorous exercise on perception and decision making? As cyclists, are our perceptions and decisions hampered because of exertion? My sister is a professor of experimental psych - maybe I'll ask her to look up some references.

The bottom line for both cyclists and drivers, I think, is that before we venture out onto the roads we need to take a deep breath and think about what we're doing. We need to remind ourselves that there are others using the roads with just as much of a right to get where they're going as we, and that, by-and-large, they're people just like us doing the best they can. This comes easily to some of the older and wiser among us, but I think for those of us who are younger and/or more self-centered this consideration rarely happens.

[zap]

Here's a more complete article, which I think is the basis for the first article/link at the beginning of this thread. More than 380 comments at the bottom of the page.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/22/MNU3VOB22.DTL

Thanks for that. At least the selected numbers add up in this "more" complete article.