Are tubulars near the end?

[Dave B]

Walked into a shop today to pick up some tubes and a cable hanger. Got into a discussion with the owner/racer about a set of Zipp cross wheels he had laying on the bench.

Saw a few other sets of the reynolds carbon clinchers laying around.

Owner says that he got off the phone with his pals at Zipp and they (Zipp) are working on their own carbon clincher and believe tubulars are going to die out very soon as clinchers are getting better and tubulars are such a pain to deal with.

I kind of humor him as I am not sure this sounds like the real deal. I know many of you (especially who race or have at a high level) love tubulars and are more then quick and successful at mounting and maintaining them.

Do any of you who are in the know really think tubulars are on their way out?

I am fascinated that Zipp (who everyone here in Indiana thinks are the industry leading carbon wheel folks :rolleyes: ) would begin to move in this direction.

I think the Jerk might have mentioned this and if I am wrong...well oops, but doesn't it seem silly to add weight to purposefully lightweight wheels by making them clinchers?

I would love to know what you folks think.

Cheers.

[Blue Jays]

There will always be riders who seek the highest levels of performance and safety. At this point, that means wheels with tubular tires.
That said, the vast majority of my riding is done on my clincher wheels, simply because a roadside repair with fresh tube brings a clincher back to 100% in a matter of minutes.

[Sandy]

I wonder if some who use tubulars would still use tubulars if and when clinchers become better in all respects. Would they not use them as they are more congruent with the purity of cycling, similar to a fixed gear bike? I think that some really enjoy using them. Going through the process of mounting them and doing an excellent job of it is a meaningful part of their cycling pleasure and identity and always will be, if they are always available.


Sewup Sandy

[Fixed]

ride some then you'll know
cheers

[stevep]

he's crazy

back away...
dont say anything

[Tommasini]

Until clinchers can offfer the same "cush" ride, corner as well, and be as light and stay on the rim and be ridden safely as they go soft/flat, tubbies will remain the choice of pro level racers and other high performance cyclists. As time has gone on the differnence between the two has gotten less and yes clinchers are more convinent for the average joe and have a slightly lower rolling resistance on a smooth drum in a lab - so it's a case of you decide your priorities - like do you like a clutch vs an automatic transmission on your sportscar. Otherwise instead of an internet debate it should be a case of "can we just get along" - as I see it "they" (clinchers and tubbies) will continue to coexist for a long time.

[e-RICHIE]

atmo some of the most sexy looking wheels out
there are the new DTs with the carbon rims. but
that they are available only as clincher is a real deal
breaker for me.

[Avispa]

I wonder if some who use tubulars would still use tubulars if and when clinchers become better in all respects.

Sewup Sandy

Of course they would! Aren't a few freaks* still using turntables and bulb amps out there?

..A..

* it is quite all right to be a freak sometimes! ;)

[coylifut]

maybe one of the shop guys will chime in, but figuratively he's right. Tubular sales likely make up less than 10-15% of current wheel and tire sales. Does that mean they'll fall by the way side? Not a chance, but they'll be more like track equipment and occupy a small slice at the top of the market.

[saab2000]

I wonder if some who use tubulars would still use tubulars if and when clinchers become better in all respects.

But they won't. There are too many inherent compromises. Great for many uses, but for the ultimate performance they are not it.

Tubulars are not for everyone. But neither are clinchers. My dream bike will likely always have tubulars.

They only chance is the tubeless clincher and that too seems like a design with compromise in some ways.

[Sandy]

But they won't. There are too many inherent compromises. Great for many uses, but for the ultimate performance they are not it.

Tubulars are not for everyone. But neither are clinchers. My dream bike will likely always have tubulars.

They only chance is the tubeless clincher and that too seems like a design with compromise in some ways.

What is the biggest difference between an excellent tubular and an excellent clincher? Ride quality? Do they give a substantially more supple ride? Handle any better? Flat protection? Durability?


Sandy

[csm]

all things remaining equal... a tubular rides better than a clincher. and we ain't talking steel vs aluminum vs carbon vs etc.
they ride better. but the issue is compromise. cost vs benefit.
I am thinking of going back to tubulars to ride RAGBRAI this year.

[dirtdigger88]

What is the biggest difference between an excellent tubular and an excellent clincher? Ride quality? Do they give a substantially more supple ride? Handle any better? Flat protection? Durability?


Sandy

the tubular goes to 11 . . . If you cant tell the differance between 120 tpi vs 300 tpi . . . you wont feel the differance in tubulars

then again - some of us do

Jason

[csm]

it's the difference between 16 yo and 18 yo.
subtle sometimes
but there
hey, I am talking about scotch

[Dekonick]

From a physics standpoint, a tubular will always have an advantage over a clincher. I can totally see how a tubular gives a better feel (and safety) cornering - as long as it doesn't roll off...

that said, I have never tried tubs. Clinchers work and are easy to fix.

I dunno - but physics is some neat chit. If glue, etc weren't part of the deal I would give tubs a shot.

[coylifut]

What is the biggest difference between an excellent tubular and an excellent clincher? Ride quality? Do they give a substantially more supple ride? Handle any better? Flat protection? Durability?


Sandy

if it wasn't for all the deep carbon tubular wheels on offer in the last couple of years, there would be far fewer tubular tire choices. Once carbon clinchers begin to rival their tubular counterparts in weight and strength, you'll see the pendulum swing back the other way. Tubulars marginally out perform clinchers in terms of suppleness, cornering grip and flat protections, but they have higher rolling resistance.

[saab2000]

What is the biggest difference between an excellent tubular and an excellent clincher? Ride quality? Do they give a substantially more supple ride? Handle any better? Flat protection? Durability?


Sandy

- Smooth ride
- Durability
- Better handling is probably the best attribute
- Flat less

This is mostly 'at-the-limit' stuff. For the average rider it's probably not worth the trouble. But my tubulars flat very seldom and are a lighter (not weight 'light' but light as in finesse if that make sense), more supple, more fine ride.

But the biggest advantage to the racer is the round section, for handling. Plus, they're lighter.

Try a set and you'll see.

But don't use cruddy tubular tires. Cheap tubulars are worse than cheap clinchers. There are others here who know more on this subject than I do, but I firmly believe that tubulars are not near their end. In fact, I think they have made something of a comeback for the purists. But that is what they are, something for the fanatical purists.

But that would describe most regulars here, no?

Ultimately, the difference is not huge, but it does exist.

[coylifut]

From a physics standpoint, a tubular will always have an advantage over a clincher. I can totally see how a tubular gives a better feel (and safety) cornering - as long as it doesn't roll off...

that said, I have never tried tubs. Clinchers work and are easy to fix.

I dunno - but physics is some neat chit. If glue, etc weren't part of the deal I would give tubs a shot.

what physics are you talking about? every study I've seen show that average clinchers have less rolling resistance compared to the best tubulars.

[csm]

what studies are you referencing?

[swoop]

the latest is that clinchers are faster going straight. the obvious is that a good tubular feels better turning and perhaps feels better going any direction.
the reality is that i rode nothing but tubulars till i double flatted 40 miles from home and didn't love the stress of rolling with only one spare.
now that i buy my own stuff i also hate the cost.


clinchers are close but not the same, they are close enough for me.... but i also smile like i am with the girl that kissed me best when i get on a tubular. its just she's a hassle to live with when things go wrong.

[e-RICHIE]

clinchers are close but not the same, they are close enough for me.... but i also smile like i am with the girl that kissed me best when i get on a tubular. its just she's a hassle to live with when things go wrong.
Noelpedia 18.0 atmo -

[Fixed]

all it takes is one push on the pedal to tell the difference
i can't tell you the beauty of the sunrise you have to see it .
tubulars you have to ride them
cheers imho :beer:

[csm]

fixed....
gets it.

[coylifut]

what studies are you referencing?

try this. scroll to the bottom and you'll see separate tables for clinchers and tubulars. the best tubular has about the same rolling resistance as a Michelin Carbon. A budget training tire.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html

[Rubeboy]

Dang Fixed!
That was eloquent and concise.
I wish more people in this world - especially, perhaps, on this here forum - could be like you.

And you're right.

[Dave B]

all great info! Fixed, bro u put art into cycling!

So let's say that this cat is right and zipp and other companies switch to a carbon clincher. Is this anything
more then a marketing deal? Trying to appeal and sell to the masses?

[Satellite]

all great info! Fixed, bro u put art into cycling!

So let's say that this cat is right and zipp and other companies switch to a carbon clincher. Is this anything
more then a marketing deal? Trying to appeal and sell to the masses?

Mr. President,

Could you enlighten us? I know this is a general thread about Sew-ups V.S. Clinchers but do you want Sew-Ups for your Road Bike or your Cross Bike? I agree with most all the other posters in this thread about Clinchers V.S. Tubies; Sew-ups are here to stay folks either like them or don't, or plain don't know about the joy of Sew-ups.

Cross is a very different subject lower pressures more traction less pinch flats and if you do roll a tire off the rim less road rash than on pavement. In my racing career I have seen many a crash due to someone’s tire coming unglued in a crit; ouch lucky it never happened to me.

Colorado Cyclist won’t even glue a Sew-up on too much liability. Could you imagine going to a bike shop and you couldn’t test ride a bike because the tire can’t be glued on? Clinchers are just easier for the LBS’s and the general public. Manufactures are going to produce what they can profit from especially when Clinchers are catching up in performance or marketing hype.

Satellite

[DarkStar]

[QUOTE=Avispa]Of course they would! Aren't a few freaks* still using turntables and bulb amps out there?

...and horn speakers! :banana:

[Too Tall]

Yah think Zipp is market driven? :rolleyes:

How could this thread have gone two pages before I saw it!
I see more tubular tyre choices and availability of late not less.

If you need a reason, just engage the many riders here who have tried them for the first time or began again to enjoy them. The forum has been an excellent resource for solid info. lore and culture of all things tubular tyre :)

Relax. Tell a friend. Tell two friends. The revolution will not be televised.

[Marcus Torino]

Meh. Just because one store doesn't want to deal with them does not the end of an era make.

I would like to see more choice in rims, but there are good ones out there, Ambrosio, Kinlin, Reynolds, Edge and others all make nice rims, and Continental, Vittoria and Veloflex among others make nice tires. So really availability isn't a problem, just mental attitude.

The path to the chapel is full of thorns, but even a poor man can make sandals.

[terrytnt]

It's all been said, so here are may personal thoughts.

Better ride...

Very few flats (watch my buddies change tubes ALL THE TIME)

Love the process of preparing, maintaining and cleaning tubulars.
:banana:

[Dave B]

Mr. President,

Could you enlighten us? I know this is a general thread about Sew-ups V.S. Clinchers but do you want Sew-Ups for your Road Bike or your Cross Bike? I agree with most all the other posters in this thread about Clinchers V.S. Tubies; Sew-ups are here to stay folks either like them or don't, or plain don't know about the joy of Sew-ups.

Cross is a very different subject lower pressures more traction less pinch flats and if you do roll a tire off the rim less road rash than on pavement. In my racing career I have seen many a crash due to someone’s tire coming unglued in a crit; ouch lucky it never happened to me.

Colorado Cyclist won’t even glue a Sew-up on too much liability. Could you imagine going to a bike shop and you couldn’t test ride a bike because the tire can’t be glued on? Clinchers are just easier for the LBS’s and the general public. Manufactures are going to produce what they can profit from especially when Clinchers are catching up in performance or marketing hype.

Satellite

My question must have been poorly stated, I am not at all trying to choose one over the other or discuss which is a better way to go. I also am not looking to go out and pick either one up right now. The shop owner I was listening to was speaking as though he had inside knowledge. I thought he was full of bologna simply as I have listened to so many here speak about how great tubulars are and that with very little practice you can put on a tire with relative ease.. He was adamant that this was the real deal...carbon clinchers.

I figured more people here actually have a pulse on what is happening then this cat. so I posed the question.

I have not one issue with either choice. I have read many many threads here about tubular vs clincher.

I guess I don't see why companies would make the carbon clincher. If most folks who would spend $1500 plus on a wheelset would also be the folks willing to learn or pay to have someone put on a set of tubular tires.

I know many of the first time cyclists learn as their first maintenance tip how to change a flat/tube/tire.

These don't seem to be the ones to buy those types of wheels.

I guess I am saying why mix it up for a smaller demographic. Is it having options and if so, doesn't this (carbon clincher) seem to be an odd option to have?

Again this is just a question I have...not which is better. I am curious why companies would create this type of choice. That is all.

I did not mean this to be which is better and why.

[R2D2]

What is the advantage of a carbon clincher rim?
They don't seem to weigh any less.

I guess you can charge more.

[Too Tall]

What is the advantage of a carbon clincher rim?
They don't seem to weigh any less.

I guess you can charge more.
Good question. The answer goes all over the map. Safety, cost of production...blah blah.

Pls. chime in. If you own tubulars do you also glue your own? Would you feel comfortable having a shop do this?

[stevep]

carbon clinchers are problematic to me.
the tire pressure pushes out on the rim section requiring it to be fortified ( heavier ). carbon clinchers are not really light that i have seen.
in addition you get the added benefit of worse braking. i have yet to see a carbon clincher that i would use for free. much other stuff i will use for free.

ergo.
carbon clinchers weigh the same or similar to aluminum clinchers that cost half as much..but they do add questionable braking.
they are limiting in allowed tire pressure.

carbon tubulars make sense if very light weight is important.
they can be very light and very strong.
braking still questionable but very light weight allows for the trade off.

[sspielman]

To answer the original question, "Are tubulars near the end?"....
....No. Zipp has no more overall affect on the demand for high quality wheels and tires than my local country store has on the sale of Ferraris....

[regularguy412]

I figured more people here actually have a pulse on what is happening then this cat. so I posed the question.

.<snipped>

I think your point is well-stated, but you are kind of asking the choir for a critique of the sermon. Many on this board ride tubulars. In fact, most of those would not consider anything BUT tubular tires / wheels.

However, I think you have received your answer, but in a more round-about way. Despite what your LBS says, tubular tires will likely never go away, entirely. Where there is demand, there will be supply; you'll just have to be willing to pay the cost for the wheels and tires.

I have mostly clincher wheel sets. I ride and train mostly on clincher wheels and tires. Yet, I _DO_ have one set of tubular wheels which I use for special events on smooth roads and/or when I'm going to be doing a lot of climbing and descending.

Your LBS likely feels that tubulars will go out of style because it's much easier to get a new rider _ON_ a bike if the 'ease' of changing flats is demonstrated to them. This translates to SALES. The good part is: if that rider becomes a true lover of the sport, that person will at least have some curiosity, at some point, about what the 'deal' is with tubulars. If they ride them, then, they'll see ( to steal a phrase from Ben & Co.):D

Mike in AR :beer:

[Dave B]

<snipped>

I think your point is well-stated, but you are kind of asking the choir for a critique of the sermon. Many on this board ride tubulars. In fact, most of those would not consider anything BUT tubular tires / wheels.

However, I think you have received your answer, but in a more round-about way. Despite what your LBS says, tubular tires will likely never go away, entirely. Where there is demand, there will be supply; you'll just have to be willing to pay the cost for the wheels and tires.

I have mostly clincher wheel sets. I ride and train mostly on clincher wheels and tires. Yet, I _DO_ have one set of tubular wheels which I use for special events on smooth roads and/or when I'm going to be doing a lot of climbing and descending.

Your LBS likely feels that tubulars will go out of style because it's much easier to get a new rider _ON_ a bike if the 'ease' of changing flats is demonstrated to them. This translates to SALES. The good part is: if that rider becomes a true lover of the sport, that person will at least have some curiosity, at some point, about what the 'deal' is with tubulars. If they ride them, then, they'll see ( to steal a phrase from Ben & Co.):D

Mike in AR :beer:


Yeah I agree. This makes total sense.

SteveP also makes good sense.

I think that is why the production of a wheel that is not any better then an aluminum clincher and not even close to the point (lightweight) as a carbon tubular.

Anyway thanks all for your thoughts.

[R2D2]

Good question. The answer goes all over the map. Safety, cost of production...blah blah.

Pls. chime in. If you own tubulars do you also glue your own? Would you feel comfortable having a shop do this?


Here's my take:

If i'm doing long rando stuff I ride clinchers as you're unsupported and clinchers are easy to repair on the go.

If I want to do short fast stuff it's hard to beat carbon rims and tubulars. Especially in the hills.

I do all my own work. I trust no one with my wheels.

[regularguy412]

Good question. The answer goes all over the map. Safety, cost of production...blah blah.

Pls. chime in. If you own tubulars do you also glue your own? Would you feel comfortable having a shop do this?

I had the bike shop where I purchased my tubular wheels and tires do the glue-up the first time. I had no clue about how to do it.

Since then, I've _ONLY_ glued my own tires. In all that time, I've only had one tire roll off,, and that was during a warm up prior to a race. I had to take an evasive maneuver and hit a curb at an obtuse angle. I didn't go down, but I couldn't ride that front wheel again until I re-glued the tire.

Mike in AR :beer:

[coylifut]

I have 7 sets of tubular wheels, 5 for cross, 2 for the road and 3 sets of clinchers. I'm neither a clincher all the time or tubular all the time guy. The only myth I take issue with is the durability argument. My experience is that tubulars are no more puncture proof compared to clinchers. Don't bring up the pinch flat issue. Anyone who gets more than one pinch flat every 2 years needs to learn how to ride their bike. I think the reason why people perceive they experience less flats than clinchers is because they know they are riding tires that cost about 2X more and involve a process to mount once they do flat. Therefore, it's likely they are more careful with 'em. Also, there's no way you can change a tubular flat in the field faster than I can change out a clincher. If you can, please don't ever ride in front of me. If I glue your tires on for you, it's going to take some swear words and at least 5 minutes to get tire off.

[William]

If Too Tall says tubulars SUCK!!...they SUCK!!!! Why that's good enough for me. :D






William

[Kane]

I remember doing a test ride on a Ti bike several years ago. The shop guy pulled it down and took it in the back. He put 110 lbs in the tires and mounted my pedals. I rode out of the shop and out through the parking lot.

Wow! I couldn't believe how good the ride felt. The darn bike didn't even fit me that well. I hopped off and looked at the tires suspiciously. Sure enough they were sewups.

I grew up on sewups back in the days of dieto pietro's (sp?). All good bikes came with sewups, period. They still ride better. Much better!

Ten years ago I took off on a bike ride. About a mile from home I flatted my front sewup on a thorn. I pumped some air in and turned around to go home and switch my wheel. POP! Son of a b.tch. I flatted the other tire. Now I ride clinchers, but I miss sewups.

Cheers,

Kane

[ejh]

I used to ride only tubi's when I lived in N.Y. and loved them. after moving to Colorado and meeting the goat head and going broke replacing them, I only ride clinchers now. but I do like the ride of tubi's much better and would if I could aford.

[dirtdigger88]

from a few years ago- about as close of a heads up test as I could do

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=92738&postcount=1

jason

[Dave B]

I truly did not mean this to get into a tubular vs. clincher thread...seriously.

I am simply curious why to make carbon clinchers. I apologize for starting this debate on tires again. :crap:

Prez

[ada@prorider.or]

at Zipp and they (Zipp) are working on their own carbon clincher and believe tubulars are going to die out very soon as clinchers are getting better

I had this dicussion with several tyre compagny´s.
(as we made clincher carbon wheel in late 90s).

I ask them to do a test as they where convinced of the clincher,

The test we take both a set of wheel me a tubular the tyre compagny a clincher then we pinch the tyre to make a flat we both gone decent the mountain.

The one who come,s alive in the valley has won

They never wanted to do the test i think they have seen my point.



Yes gone take a long time that we see no tubular wheels and tyre´s!!

[Fixed]

Good question. The answer goes all over the map. Safety, cost of production...blah blah.

Pls. chime in. If you own tubulars do you also glue your own? Would you feel comfortable having a shop do this?
yes i do but
young kid mt. biker... no
old dog racer... yes
cheers

[Big Daddy]

I truly did not mean this to get into a tubular vs. clincher thread...seriously.

I am simply curious why to make carbon clinchers. I apologize for starting this debate on tires again. :crap:

Prez

for the record...I love tubulars.

to your question:

alternatives, technology advancements

[MilanoTom]

try this. scroll to the bottom and you'll see separate tables for clinchers and tubulars. the best tubular has about the same rolling resistance as a Michelin Carbon. A budget training tire.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html

If you really think that a couple of charts can tell the entire story (l sort of like the technical jargon - "okay" - they use to describe roundness), then go ahead and ride clinchers.

Tom

[coylifut]

If you really think that a couple of charts can tell the entire story (l sort of like the technical jargon - "okay" - they use to describe roundness), then go ahead and ride clinchers.

Tom

if you read the entire thread, you'll see I own multiple sets of tubulars and few sets of clinchers. The only time I race on clinchers is when I commute through glass strewn city streets to get to the event. I've seen at least 3 separate tests displaying that clinchers have less rolling rolling resistance compared to tubulars. Does this tell the whole story when comparing tubulars to clinchers? It wasn't meant to. The statement is limited to rolling resistance. I guess after my comment stating that people who get pinch flats don't know how to ride their bikes, I deserve a snotty comment or two.
:beer:

[PeterNorth]

for the record...I love tubulars.

to your question:

alternatives, technology advancements

and we love you, jean man

and tubulars

[sspielman]

I guess after my comment stating that people who get pinch flats don't know how to ride their bikes, I deserve a snotty comment or two.
:beer:


Cool....I was getting ready to suggest the same thing in another thread about people who complain about flexy chainwheels...

[swoop]

i'm on nothing but carbon clinchers now. three sets... two of em are reynolds and one bontrager and i wont go back.
it helps that it doesn't really rain out here..

they have a great feel, they're hassle free, they're stiff and light enough... especially the deeper ones. i haven't encountered any negatives and have come to prefer em.

the mystery of braking is solved by the pads (you have to get decent pads). the do dampen road buz a tiny bit.... and they feel fast.

[Big Daddy]

and we love you, jean man

and tubulars


Peter--

Good to see you taking time off from "shooting". Tubulars do rock, and so do the right shots.

[PeterNorth]

Peter--

Good to see you taking time off from "shooting". Tubulars do rock, and so do the right shots.

OK...

[Too Tall]

THE PETER NORTH???? DAWG :)

Guys, smell the glue. Drop by my garage, offer is "out there" I'll glue tyres for you or teach you how to do this yourself. TT likes craft brewed ales :)

[Big Daddy]

WWKR?

what would King ride?

[MilanoTom]

if you read the entire thread, you'll see I own multiple sets of tubulars and few sets of clinchers. The only time I race on clinchers is when I commute through glass strewn city streets to get to the event. I've seen at least 3 separate tests displaying that clinchers have less rolling rolling resistance compared to tubulars. Does this tell the whole story when comparing tubulars to clinchers? It wasn't meant to. The statement is limited to rolling resistance. I guess after my comment stating that people who get pinch flats don't know how to ride their bikes, I deserve a snotty comment or two.
:beer:

It's my bad for not reading the entire thread. The funny thing is that I ride tublulars on single day rides, but haven't gotten the nerve to take them on multi-day rides. I guess I'm too strong a believer in Murphy's Law.

You may be right about some people not knowing how to ride their bikes. I can go through a season without a flat, but when I worked as a tech on an AIDS charity ride, I'd wager that over half of the hundred riders got flats during the three days of the tour.

Tom

[mschol17]

THE PETER NORTH???? DAWG :)

Guys, smell the glue. Drop by my garage, offer is "out there" I'll glue tyres for you or teach you how to do this yourself. TT likes craft brewed ales :)


TT,
I might have to take you up on this... I'm in the area. I'll bring the Ommegang I just picked up this weekend.

[Dekonick]

what physics are you talking about? every study I've seen show that average clinchers have less rolling resistance compared to the best tubulars.

I am not talking about rolling resistance, but forces applied in a turn. Cornering looks like it would feel better on a tub. I havent ever tried one as the glue, cost, hassle, etc... curtail my interest just enough to keep 'em at bay...

[Too Tall]

TT,
I might have to take you up on this... I'm in the area. I'll bring the Ommegang I just picked up this weekend.
Done :) My training camp (shameless plug) begins this weekend am out of pocket for a week after that I'm your man.

[stevep]

it helps that it doesn't really rain out here..
.

swoop,
where did they have the tour of california this year?
just busting you man, my parrot pointed out yr post and
said i should nail you.

he speaks well actually, he used to live in cambridge.

[swoop]

swoop,
where did they have the tour of california this year?
just busting you man, my parrot pointed out yr post and
said i should nail you.

he speaks well actually, he used to live in cambridge.

one freaking week o rain... its 80 something out now and i have devil's horn helmet sunburn.

[sailorboy]

tubulars when you race, clinchers for all other times.

unless of course you have a team car behind during all of your rides

[jjb]

the mystery of braking is solved by the pads (you have to get decent pads). the do dampen road buz a tiny bit.... and they feel fast.


Seems to me that this may be the rational for all carbon clincher, you can swap between all carbon tubulars and not have to worry about swapping out pads. Can't using contaminated pads rip up the carbon braking surface? Just a thought anyway.

-jjb

[swoop]

Seems to me that this may be the rational for all carbon clincher, you can swap between all carbon tubulars and not have to worry about swapping out pads. Can't using contaminated pads rip up the carbon braking surface? Just a thought anyway.

-jjb


i just have carbon on all the bikes and use bonty corks. it works great and i don't worry about braking.
it does take some foresight in the rain.... but i try and just run into expensive cars and sue.

plus they look cool to me and that makes me feel good about myself. mostly its that.

[coylifut]

Seems to me that this may be the rational for all carbon clincher, you can swap between all carbon tubulars and not have to worry about swapping out pads. Can't using contaminated pads rip up the carbon braking surface? Just a thought anyway.

-jjb

a very rational thought at that. changing brake pad holders for the weekend race is a minor inconvenience, but an inconvenience none the less.

[PeterNorth]

tubulars when you race, clinchers for all other times.

unless of course you have a team car behind during all of your rides

No kidding..............Or, like, you could carry a folded up spare.

[Fixed]

bro.. My tubs are mavic 330's don't have to change pads . i've been using wheels like this since the 80 's i had some in my work shed for a couple of years got them out last week fixed them up put them on my merckx corsa and it was magic .........the way this bike feels with clinchers well i won't say it's bad ..but with tubulars it's a different ball game .the snappy feel of the tubs working with the tough steel 753 reynolds frame..is sweet ..i think some bikes scream get me tubs please... you really notice it on the older steel bikes
cheers imho

[ada@prorider.or]

Can't using contaminated pads rip up the carbon braking surface? Just a thought anyway.

-jjb

Well use pads that you do not have to change
i never hear any complaints about the braking pads and need to be changed ,hence they last even very log time
(2 major tours)

[swoop]

no pad drama over here either.

[Big Daddy]

enough already!!! 5HIT!

If you are afraid of gluing your own tires and rolling in a corner, either find a tire guru or stay with clinchers. Sheesh! How was it that for how many freaking years, riders ONLY had sew-ups to choose from...and not many(if any) died from tire roll. Personally, I would rather puncture on a tubular than have a clincher blow up on me, or worse in front of me.

Most people on this board ride bikes well into the $3000+ range, and i hear about people whining and complaining about $60-80 tires. give it a rest. Tubulars give the best ride. period. there are only a few of us on this board, male or female that have stuck their noses out in the wind in a Pro1/2 race, so shut up about resistance, or physics or weight, or any other trivial babble. ride what you want to ride...enjoy it.

bottom line analysis...
clinchers are good.
tubulars are good
carbon wheels look and feel fast
carbon clinchers are becoming more affordable and plentiful
swiss stop yellows

I am going down to the garage and hug my carbon tubular training wheels, then i am going over and hug my racing carbon tubular wheels, then go give my SL clinchers a handshake.

Good night, buy my jeans.

[ada@prorider.or]

Funny i ride clincher´s on training ride´s never would change that,but would race on tubulars.

Hence i do not have to win a race anymore

[Nick H.]

Tubs with latex inners have become more practical since Vittoria Pit Stop came along.

[Grant McLean]

no pad drama over here either.

there is no drama.

The swiss stop folks do not suggest changing pads for different rims.
Just roll with the carbon compound pad on whatever rims you got.

-g

[Oirad]

Tubulars for President.

-- Oirad

[IXXI]

Please edumicate me on Swiss Stop; I like their obsessive/compulsive thing with brake pads.

What color/compound for modern clinchers w/ machined surfaces? Which one's best for some Paris Roubaix tubies w/ anodized surfaces?

Green? Or can I use yellow with everything?



there is no drama.

The swiss stop folks do not suggest changing pads for different rims.
Just roll with the carbon compound pad on whatever rims you got.

-g

[LegendRider]

My prediction: Tubeless will take market share from both clinchers and tubulars in the future.

[MilanoTom]

there is no drama.

The swiss stop folks do not suggest changing pads for different rims.
Just roll with the carbon compound pad on whatever rims you got.

-g

I've read or heard (and I can't remember the source - maybe Zinn's column) that when you use pads on aluminum rims, they pick up tiny particles (dust? I don't remember the exact terminology) of aluminum, so that if you use the same pads (even if they're made for carbon) with carbon rims, you'll scratch the crap out of them and prematurely wear them down.

Is there any truth to that? Besides being a cheap*ss, one of the reasons I've never bothered with carbon wheels is that I didn't want to deal with switching pads if I switched back and forth with aluminum rims.

Regards.
Tom

[benb]

Tubulars are already gone.. they only exist on internet forums and Pro Tour team bikes.

[coylifut]

I've read or heard (and I can't remember the source - maybe Zinn's column) that when you use pads on aluminum rims, they pick up tiny particles (dust? I don't remember the exact terminology) of aluminum, so that if you use the same pads (even if they're made for carbon) with carbon rims, you'll scratch the crap out of them and prematurely wear them down.

Is there any truth to that? Besides being a cheap*ss, one of the reasons I've never bothered with carbon wheels is that I didn't want to deal with switching pads if I switched back and forth with aluminum rims.

Regards.
Tom

that's the word on the street, but what I hear Grant saying is with the Swiss Yellows, no worries. Is this true Grant?

[benb]

It seems to depend on the pad & rim but for example Shimano pads IME do pick up shavings from the rim quite often. Riding conditions matter too. They are not tiny, they're thicker then human hairs.. perhaps 0.25mm in diameter? Length up to 1cm in an extreme case? You can pull them out with needle nose pliers if you're lucky.

Stock SRAM pads seem to do this too.. but my sample size is 1 there.

This makes a horrible sound and scratches your alloy rims pretty fiercely.. and usually means quick pad replacement.

So yah if you stick your $1000+ carbon wheelset on with fouled brake pads.. ugly is the result.

I just had to change my brake pads due to this 2 weeks ago. KoolStop pads seem to be much better then SRAM/Shimano in this respect.

[ergott]

What is the advantage of a carbon clincher rim?
They don't seem to weigh any less.

I guess you can charge more.


You can't get alloy clinchers deeper than 34mm (Ac 420 wheels). If you want aero wheels with a larger profile, you have to go carbon clincher and they are a great option. The weight comparison isn't fair because at the same weight, the carbon offerings I've seen are much stronger and stiffer than their alloy counterparts. I will be riding on clinchers converted to tubeless most of this season to see what I think. If this technology is refined more (and I can almost guaranty that it will), you have the best of both worlds. They were good enough for Gilbert at Het Volk. They are seeing time at the highest level of competition.

Just a point of information, a Zipp 303 clincher (44mm) weighs the same as a Reynolds SDV66 (66mm, duh) rim. That's reason enough to go carbon clincher for me. A 32mm Reynolds MV32 clincher is definitely stiffer and stronger than a 30mm niobium rim and the brake surface on carbon rims last a whole lot longer than alloy. I have guys with 5+years of cross racing on carbon wheels that have seen plenty of days in the mud.

Honestly, I think that carbon is a better brake surface than alloy once you know what you are doing.



PS I still have a garage full of tubular wheels.

[coylifut]

Honestly, I think that carbon is a better brake surface than alloy once you know what you are doing.



.

I find the comment above vague. Not gay vague - just regular vague. Can you please educate Steve P. I'll listen in.

PS. I barely go though a set of brake blocks on my CX bike(s) let alone rim sidewalls.

[PoppaWheelie]

i'm on nothing but carbon clinchers now. three sets... two of em are reynolds and one bontrager and i wont go back.
it helps that it doesn't really rain out here..

they have a great feel, they're hassle free, they're stiff and light enough... especially the deeper ones. i haven't encountered any negatives and have come to prefer em.

the mystery of braking is solved by the pads (you have to get decent pads). the do dampen road buz a tiny bit.... and they feel fast.

+1 on this...I've been on Reynold Carbon clinchers for 3 seasons now, as wells as Open Pros and tubulars. They all have their uses....but I do ride my old Reynolds Cirros everywhere...over rough roads, off-road...you name it. The braking is fine with Swiss stop pads and they're tough as nails. In three years and thousands of miles (and I'm the second owner) the ONLY thing that has ever happened was a broken drive-side spoke. Big deal. The rims are so over-built that they barely even went out of true and didn't go out-of-round even one bit - we rode 20 miles home up'n over Mt Tam with a twisty decent...no problem. I think the inappropriateness of carbon for use in a clincher section resulted in a over-built design that is tough and stiff as all get-out.

[saab2000]

They better not be going out. I just road these exact wheels with these exact tires on the rough roads around Appleton, WI. Fine ride. Smooth and no issues in the howling winds.

Yeah, the wheels are pretty old fashioned, but they get the job done and are not reason I am slow. :cool:

Long live box section tubular rims and good tubular tires!

[palincss]

Your LBS likely feels that tubulars will go out of style because it's much easier to get a new rider _ON_ a bike if the 'ease' of changing flats is demonstrated to them. This translates to SALES. The good part is: if that rider becomes a true lover of the sport, that person will at least have some curiosity, at some point, about what the 'deal' is with tubulars. If they ride them, then, they'll see ( to steal a phrase from Ben & Co.):D

Mike in AR :beer:


Fact is, tubulars went out of style around 30 years ago, and they've been out of style ever since. There was once a day when every top quality road bike came with sew-ups. Even "club racers," one tier down, came with sew-ups. How many top quality road bikes come with sew-ups now? 1%? Is there one Trek (to pick a well-known brand more or less at random) model that comes with sew-ups?

Obviously, being out of style isn't synonymous with unloved or unobtainable, although, from what I hear, you just can't get those good quality hand-made silk tubulars anymore.

[ergott]

I find the comment above vague. Not gay vague - just regular vague. Can you please educate Steve P. I'll listen in.

PS. I barely go though a set of brake blocks on my CX bike(s) let alone rim sidewalls.

I've seen alloy rims wear out when braking in poor conditions. When grit gets into the pads they can burn out a rims pretty easily. I just replaced an alloy rim that was less than a year old because of brake wear. I swapped in a ceramic rim.

[Grant McLean]

that's the word on the street, but what I hear Grant saying is with the Swiss Yellows, no worries. Is this true Grant?

Yes, that's what the Swiss stop distributor uses on his personal bike,
and he said he runs both alloy and carbon wheels, never changes the pads.
(never cleans his bike either, from the look of it ;) )

By all means, have a look at the pads every once an a while. I take a flat
file and just clean off the "glaze" that forms, but it's not that necessary.
The swiss stop folks said the carbon surface is much harder than aluminum,
(which is actually very soft) but if you have chunks of stuff stuck in the pads,
you should remove it regardless if you're using alu or carbon rims, actually
more so with alu rims...

-g

[coylifut]

I've seen alloy rims wear out when braking in poor conditions. When grit gets into the pads they can burn out a rims pretty easily. I just replaced an alloy rim that was less than a year old because of brake wear. I swapped in a ceramic rim.

I'm looking for you to clarify this comment.

"Honestly, I think that carbon is a better brake surface than alloy once you know what you are doing."

are you saying the carbon braking surfaces are more like ceramic? Not doubting, just want to know.

[stevep]

My prediction: Tubeless will take market share from both clinchers and tubulars in the future.


not imminent.

[Fixed]

They better not be going out. I just road these exact wheels with these exact tires on the rough roads around Appleton, WI. Fine ride. Smooth and no issues in the howling winds.

Yeah, the wheels are pretty old fashioned, but they get the job done and are not reason I am slow. :cool:

Long live box section tubular rims and good tubular tires!


bro on old steel those are the best i don't have to tell you that sabb
it is the younger crowd that does not know there are or were tubs that were not carbon and yes they make your bike feel lively ,fast and gives it a character and if you listen you will hear it say aahh thank you ..it is the best thing you can do for your old friend imho
cheers :beer:

[ergott]

I'm looking for you to clarify this comment.

"Honestly, I think that carbon is a better brake surface than alloy once you know what you are doing."

are you saying the carbon braking surfaces are more like ceramic? Not doubting, just want to know.


The opposite. Ceramic rims brake better in the wet and carbon better in the dry. There is less modulation with carbon, but there is modulation. It's not a linear as alloy rims.

[csm]

how many of us ever reach threshold braking on a road bike? sure there are differences but..... surely they are easily overcome.

[saab2000]

how many of us ever reach threshold braking on a road bike? sure there are differences but..... surely they are easily overcome.

In real mountains like where I used to live you were at the limits of the bike all the time. Tires, brakes, brake pads, etc. A bike will never be pushed JRA, like most riding is that is done by most people, but race or ride hard in mountains and you start to feel limits. BTW, that's a good thing as a cyclist. Very rewarding and where it becomes challenging.

[Jack Brunk]

In real mountains like where I used to live you were at the limits of the bike all the time. Tires, brakes, brake pads, etc. A bike will never be pushed JRA, like most riding is that is done by most people, but race or ride hard in mountains and you start to feel limits. BTW, that's a good thing as a cyclist. Very rewarding and where it becomes challenging.
If anybody wants to quit using their sew ups and has spares, then I'm willing to buy them. I need some new tires.

[11.4]

Fact is, tubulars went out of style around 30 years ago, and they've been out of style ever since. There was once a day when every top quality road bike came with sew-ups. Even "club racers," one tier down, came with sew-ups. How many top quality road bikes come with sew-ups now? 1%? Is there one Trek (to pick a well-known brand more or less at random) model that comes with sew-ups?

Obviously, being out of style isn't synonymous with unloved or unobtainable, although, from what I hear, you just can't get those good quality hand-made silk tubulars anymore.

Ugh. To draw a conclusion based on a Trek?

No one is asking whether tubulars should be ubiquitous, only whether they have a meaningful role. Nowadays you don't have to ride tubulars, you just have the opportunity to do so and enjoy them. It's like sex after birth control pills.

[Too Tall]

Ugh. To draw a conclusion based on a Trek?

No one is asking whether tubulars should be ubiquitous, only whether they have a meaningful role. Nowadays you don't have to ride tubulars, you just have the opportunity to do so and enjoy them. It's like sex after birth control pills.

Timely reply 11.pedia.

Tubulars never went out of style for folks who brush their teeth kiss their bikes good night and wake up smelling the tubasti fer gosh sakes man! There are a whole new generation of riders and racers now learning about some of the finer performance aspects tubular tyres and good wheels support.

Of course you don't find tubulars on most consumer bikes. cluck.

At least once a week I've got folks asking me for help with tubulars. From where I stand tubulars are growing in popularity more in the non-racing crowd than any other. Go figure? OK I'll wager a guess, because folks are delving deeper in to the culture and nuances of the sport. hehe just don't make me ride a Brooks saddle and we are otay ;)

If I had as many cats as tubular wheelsets...uh...oh cr@p...I'm weird.

[sspielman]

I ride tubulars....exclusively...because I like them and good ones are readily available.What always amazes is me is the number of people who are morbidly concerned with the type pf tire that I am riding. "you are riding tubulars...*gasp*"....I don't understand it...If somebody is riding a POS in front of me with parts falling off, I am concerned....Otherwise, I don't give a hoot....So this is my notice to the entire cycling world- Don't concern yourself with your fellow riders' equipment choices...It shows bad breeding...and, incidentally, your cleats are mounted too far forward and your stem is too short....

[Dave B]

Folks tubulars are great, clinchers are great, bikes are great.

The original question was on carbon clinchers replacing tubular carbon wheels per the genius i spoke with at my LBS.

I was curious as to why a carbon clincher was created if they were an improvement or similiar to alu.

Zipp was mentioned...they are local here...and that is all.

Again I apologize to many of you rolling your eyes and the pm I have gotten.

I seriously was not trying to do a debate on clincher tires versus tubular.


I searched my query and did not find it...or didn't search it correctly.

Cheers

[djg]

THE PETER NORTH???? DAWG :)

Guys, smell the glue. Drop by my garage, offer is "out there" I'll glue tyres for you or teach you how to do this yourself. TT likes craft brewed ales :)

I'm totally there oh tall one. I haven't glued up any tires since Sunday evening, and the memory is really fading these days -- cannot remember what I did, but I've got some more wheels and little tubes of ... I dunno what's in 'em.

What kind of beer?

[saab2000]

I ride tubulars....exclusively...because I like them and good ones are readily available.What always amazes is me is the number of people who are morbidly concerned with the type pf tire that I am riding. "you are riding tubulars...*gasp*"....I don't understand it...If somebody is riding a POS in front of me with parts falling off, I am concerned....Otherwise, I don't give a hoot....So this is my notice to the entire cycling world- Don't concern yourself with your fellow riders' equipment choices...It shows bad breeding...and, incidentally, your cleats are mounted too far forward and your stem is too short....

I had a guy once tell me that because I was riding tubulars I was 'out of the maintstream' and the implication was that this was not acceptable on his namby pamby group rides. I kid you not and neither was he. I was sprachlos.

[William]

I had a guy once tell me that because I was riding tubulars I was 'out of the maintstream' and the implication was that this was not acceptable on his namby pamby group rides. I kid you not and neither was he. I was sprachlos.


I think I know that guy! His first name is Steve, last name begins with a "P". ;)

I got a similar retort once.....but it was because I was riding a steel bike. He didn't even ask about the wheels. :rolleyes:

There are idiots everywhere. :crap:




William

[saab2000]

I think I know that guy! His first name is Steve, last name begins with a "P". ;)

I got a similar retort once.....but it was because I was riding a steel bike. He didn't even ask about the wheels. :rolleyes:

There are idiots everywhere. :crap:




William


I am also a single guy who is 40. No kids. No minivan. No Chevy Suburban. No suit'n tie job in a cubicle. Must be something wrong with me.... Seriously. :beer:

[Fixed]

I had a guy once tell me that because I was riding tubulars I was 'out of the maintstream' and the implication was that this was not acceptable on his namby pamby group rides. I kid you not and neither was he. I was sprachlos.
bro I get that a lot I'm riding last night and i come up on a group of 40 something riders and i riding through them when I get to the front (they are going about 20 ) their leader says to me i can't ride with them I have no helmet on .i said i'm not riding with you i riding through you .
do young cyclist think we are Ecsentric ?.cos some of us ride in the drops on tubs and no helmet ? yep Ecsentric that is me
cheers

[William]

I am also a single guy who is 40. No kids. No minivan. No Chevy Suburban. No suit'n tie job in a cubicle. Must be something wrong with me.... Seriously. :beer:


Sounds more than "normal" to me. :beer: You can be my wing man anytime. :cool:





William

[sspielman]

bro I get that a lot I'm riding last night and i come up on a group of 40 something riders and i riding through them when I get to the front (they are going about 20 ) their leader says to me i can't ride with them I have no helmet on .i said i'm not riding with you i riding through you .
do young cyclist think we are Ecsentric ?.cos some of us ride in the drops on tubs and no helmet ? yep Ecsentric that is me
cheers


I would have loved to have witnessed that scene.....

[Big Daddy]

Fact is, tubulars went out of style around 30 years ago, and they've been out of style ever since. There was once a day when every top quality road bike came with sew-ups. Even "club racers," one tier down, came with sew-ups. How many top quality road bikes come with sew-ups now? 1%? Is there one Trek (to pick a well-known brand more or less at random) model that comes with sew-ups?

Obviously, being out of style isn't synonymous with unloved or unobtainable, although, from what I hear, you just can't get those good quality hand-made silk tubulars anymore.

Ignorant post of the thread...

[Mud]

Ugh. To draw a conclusion based on a Trek?

No one is asking whether tubulars should be ubiquitous, only whether they have a meaningful role. Nowadays you don't have to ride tubulars, you just have the opportunity to do so and enjoy them. It's like sex after birth control pills.

There are some things that get better with aging like sex where practice makes perfect. While riding tubulars is not quite on the same level, riding a bike is for me (and should be) a sensual experience mentally and physically.

Thanks to TT and others I made the switch. I learned to change a tire on the road, learned to glue, and actually can repair a puncture using a tubular repair kit.

So many have spoken so nicely about the joys of riding tubular tires why not try it for yourself. People rave about the joy they get from cycling. Why not at least try something else. It would bug me forever not to try. Maybe I missed something.

Spring is coming. Time to put the Zipps (303 tubulars of course) on my wife's bike and the Nimble Flys on mine. :banana:

[stevep]

bro I get that a lot I'm riding last night and i come up on a group of 40 something riders and i riding through them when I get to the front (they are going about 20 ) their leader says to me i can't ride with them I have no helmet on .i said i'm not riding with you i riding through you .
do young cyclist think we are Ecsentric ?.cos some of us ride in the drops on tubs and no helmet ? yep Ecsentric that is me
cheers

funny fixed.
i can see it happening.

to each his own.

[Marcus Torino]

Tubulars are like your first true love, you go your seperate ways after a while and you always hanker to be back there, and when you do get back there, you wonder why you split in the first place.

There is truth in the expression, if you let it go and it comes back, it was meant to be.

[J.Greene]

their leader says to me i can't ride with them I have no helmet on .i said i'm not riding with you i riding through you .
cheers

I always ride with a helmet, but If I don't I hope to be able to use that line someday. Classic :beer:

JG

[J.Greene]

Ignorant post of the thread...

That's a little strong, but for the record I don't disagree.

The statement should have been. "Fact is, tubulars went out of style around 30 years ago for people who don't go fatser than 14mph".

JG

[pretty pony]

HI!
1.Just had a seminar with Zipp rep where it became clear that the main issues with a carbon clincher was making it strong enough to resist a couple of things;
a. impacts
b. side wall strength as related to tire presure increases while breaking, which I guess translates into super mega forces on skinny carbon rim side-wall which likes to explode.
c. increased wheel rim weight to resist above. Zipp has been beefing up their tubular rims to resist impacts because even with tubulars they have trouble resisting.

2. I rode tubulars about 12 years ago, down a beautiful dirt road. Half way thrugh my terrific ride, front flat. Much cussing and fixing and puting on spare, then riding the rest of the decent and ride on a fishy, squishy, wiggly tire. Wonderful fast ride turned into a carefull and annoying plod. Same thing would have happenend on clinchers except that I would have enjoyed the rest of my ride and would have been out $5.00 instead of $60.00. Would I ride tubulars if I could afford a pair of 808s? F yah! fast=fun. Actually I like clinchers.

3. I have been riding with a helmet recently, because my wife promised she would do unspeakable acts to me in my wheel chair, in public, if I became a vegitable as a result of not wearing my helmet. And to be honest, lately I feel a little exposed if I am not wearing it.

4. "I am not riding with you, I am riding through you." is one of the best quotes of the year.

Bye!

[Too Tall]

I'm totally there oh tall one. I haven't glued up any tires since Sunday evening, and the memory is really fading these days -- cannot remember what I did, but I've got some more wheels and little tubes of ... I dunno what's in 'em.

What kind of beer?
Hefeweizen (Shiner) or a light Pilsner...mmm....beer

[Fixed]

pretty pony said "I have been riding with a helmet recently, because my wife promised she would do unspeakable acts to me in my wheel chair, in public, if I became a vegitable as a result of not wearing my helmet. And to be honest, lately I feel a little exposed if I am not wearing it. "

bro that is the only reason for me to wear one the thought of my wife and son watching over me as drool comes out of my mouth around the tubes is not a very happy thought
imho
cheers

[palincss]

Of course you don't find tubulars on most consumer bikes. cluck.


Was the Raleigh Professional a "consumer bike"? How about the International? Schwinn Paramount? Puegeot PX-10? They all came with tubulars back in the day, they and just about every other road bike like them, back at the dawn of the Bike Boom. And not just pro-level bikes, but also mid-level club racers -- bikes well below the price and status level of items like (dare we say the name?) the Trek Madone. I'm talking straight-gauge 531 frames here. That was when tubulars were "in style".

Today, you can go into your favorite LBS, ignore all the trash, amble on over to the high end road bikes and check them out. You'll find bikes ranging from $3500 on up to $12,000 and odds are you won't find one single one with tubulars. That's "out of style".

[sspielman]

Was the Raleigh Professional a "consumer bike"? How about the International? Schwinn Paramount? Puegeot PX-10? They all came with tubulars back in the day, they and just about every other road bike like them, back at the dawn of the Bike Boom. And not just pro-level bikes, but also mid-level club racers -- bikes well below the price and status level of items like (dare we say the name?) the Trek Madone. I'm talking straight-gauge 531 frames here. That was when tubulars were "in style".

Today, you can go into your favorite LBS, ignore all the trash, amble on over to the high end road bikes and check them out. You'll find bikes ranging from $3500 on up to $12,000 and odds are you won't find one single one with tubulars. That's "out of style".

...and I still can't figure out why they put snow tires on a Ferrari....

[davids]

HI!
1.Just had a seminar with Zipp rep where it became clear that the main issues with a carbon clincher was making it strong enough to resist a couple of things;
a. impacts
b. side wall strength as related to tire presure increases while breaking, which I guess translates into super mega forces on skinny carbon rim side-wall which likes to explode.
c. increased wheel rim weight to resist above. Zipp has been beefing up their tubular rims to resist impacts because even with tubulars they have trouble resisting.

2. I rode tubulars about 12 years ago, down a beautiful dirt road. Half way thrugh my terrific ride, front flat. Much cussing and fixing and puting on spare, then riding the rest of the decent and ride on a fishy, squishy, wiggly tire. Wonderful fast ride turned into a carefull and annoying plod. Same thing would have happenend on clinchers except that I would have enjoyed the rest of my ride and would have been out $5.00 instead of $60.00. Would I ride tubulars if I could afford a pair of 808s? F yah! fast=fun. Actually I like clinchers.

3. I have been riding with a helmet recently, because my wife promised she would do unspeakable acts to me in my wheel chair, in public, if I became a vegitable as a result of not wearing my helmet. And to be honest, lately I feel a little exposed if I am not wearing it.

4. "I am not riding with you, I am riding through you." is one of the best quotes of the year.

Bye!An excellent, reality-based post, start to finish.

I don't get carbon clinchers. By the time they're strong enough to hold the bead, they've lost their weight advantage over aluminum. It seems to me that aluminum is the correct material for a clincher rim.

Likewise, I don't know that there's sufficient advantage moving from the best clinchers (e.g. Pro 2 Race Service Course) to a good tubular tire without also embracing a truly first-rate tubular carbon wheelset. I was thinking about playing around with a set of Mavic Reflexes to test the tubular waters, but was talked out of it by someone whose experience and opinions I trust.

I'm looking forward to testing a few carbon tubular wheelsets, hopefully sometime this year. If they're a substantial improvement over my aluminum clinchers I'll consider embracing the tubular lifestyle, at least a little bit.

[chrisroph]

c'mon everybody knows:

1. For road tires:

A. tubulars are lighter, stronger, more comfortable, and corner better but not by that much;

B. clinchers are way more convenient ibecause it is much easier to mount a tire at home or on the road, and to repair a flat;

C. We can debate the rolling resistance thing as the tests are done on super smooth roller drums, hardly real world conditions.

2. For cross tires:

A. No contest, you are nuts if you race clinchers unless its slop muck and you have some michelin muds, or you are in a gravel pit and you don't want to shred your tubies.

3. For the track:

A. You are nuts if you ride clinchers.

:beer: :banana:

[Too Tall]

Was the Raleigh Professional a "consumer bike"? How about the International? Schwinn Paramount? Puegeot PX-10? They all came with tubulars back in the day, they and just about every other road bike like them, back at the dawn of the Bike Boom. And not just pro-level bikes, but also mid-level club racers -- bikes well below the price and status level of items like (dare we say the name?) the Trek Madone. I'm talking straight-gauge 531 frames here. That was when tubulars were "in style".

Today, you can go into your favorite LBS, ignore all the trash, amble on over to the high end road bikes and check them out. You'll find bikes ranging from $3500 on up to $12,000 and odds are you won't find one single one with tubulars. That's "out of style".
We are on the same page. That "cluck" was for present day not backinnaday ;) Rawk on with yo bad self.