Shimano .... are they nuts?

[Grant McLean]

Is it any wonder there are folks in the cycling world that have a big hate on for shimano?
I'm constantly reminding our young staff not to bash shimano for being the 500lb gorillla.
Personally, I'm no hater, i own tons of their products ... but have they lost their minds?

It seems Shimano has asked CompetitiveCyclist.com to take down their new
Dura Ace 7900 news snippet from their website, even though they posted
just what is already available elsewhere on the web. (and no photos)

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=WHATS_NEW&WHATS_NEW.ID=191&utm_source=eblast&utm_medium=email&utm_content=offer%2Bbox&utm_campaign=E-031808%2BShimano%2BDura-Ace%2BConfidential

What? The group exsists, right? There are photographs of it being used all over the
pro cycling scene. And so those in the biz are supposed to deny it's exsistance?
We're not suppsed to talk about the first new generation of Dura Ace since '04
until they say it's ok?

In the last few years, Shimano doesn't even inform their dealers about new products
until they are basically shipping. So this leaves shimano's customers (the dealers)
in the position of having customers come into their stores who may know more
about the new products than they do! I don't get it. It's the age of information.
It's going to get out to the world, you can't stop it. Shimano needs to rethink
their logic on this one...

-g

[mschol17]

Don't worry about CC, BikeSnobNYC has all the details:

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2008/03/bsnyc-exclusive-first-look-at-new-dura.html

[Erik.Lazdins]

CC was posting some great free advertising in my view and doing a customer service. Any educated consumer contemplating a group upgrade will find the news that Brendan was offering as a courtesy.

Shimano's response about a press embargo does nothing but help SRAM and Campagnolo.

It goes like this - once upon a time I was looking for a new suit and was discussing my need with a sales rep "Mario" who informed me at the appropriate time to consider deferring my purchase for a few days - He saved me some money and earned a loyal customer in that one gesture. Had he followed a press embargo - I wouldn't be looking for Mario the next time I need a suit.

all my opinion and thanks for reading!
E

[FMS_rider]

This sure smacks of a marketing scam --quite honestly if I were considering SRAM Red I might hold off after reading the web "plants". If I had to guess I would say that the scam is to make people believe it will be out in September even though the real release date will be much later.

[old_school]

It seems Shimano has asked CompetitiveCyclist.com to take down their new Dura Ace 7900 news snippet from their website, even though they posted just what is already available elsewhere on the web. (and no photos)

***?
I read that review this morning ... another exceptional piece of writing by Brendan imo. If anything it prompted me (a life long campy user) to strongly consider Shimano for future purchase. Dumb a$$ move, if you ask me.

[MilanoTom]

Even though I don't ride Shimano, except on my beater bike, I hate to see dealers get strongarmed, so I went to Shimano's site to get their email contact information (so I could tell 'em to eat crap in the most diplomatic manner I could muster), and this is what it said:

"E-mail
Due to current volume we are unable to take e-mail requests at this time.
Please use the above contact methods at this time or contact your local shop.
Need to find a Shimano authorized retailer? Use our Dealer Locator.
We apologize for any inconvenience."

What a bunch of a-holes atmo.

Tom

[GONE4ARIDE]

Dumb move on the part of the 1,000 lb Japanese gorilla.

Time to start another petition:

www.letbrendanscribe.com

[Erik.Lazdins]

... another exceptional piece of writing by Brendan imo.

+1

[fixednwinter]

Except for one bike with older Campagnolo Ergo, I always use Shimano. But this reminds me a bit of Apple going after the enthusiasts sites - cripes, those are the company's best allies. Not to mention Brendan's Pulitizer-worthy ad-copy writing.

My next frame, I had already made the decision to go with Campagnolo Chorus - hearing this just adds to my feeling that I made the right decision.

[Big Dan]

There's always 2 sides to a story...

[deechee]

I'm just as bummed that the info was taken down but any search through google will give you the contents of that webpage. Then again how do we even know this stuff is true? I'm sure Shimano has the means to leak fake information.

Isn't it simply about buyer beware? Shimano is out there to make money. Why announce new products months in advance and dip into the sales of their current products? In this day of information, intellectual property is extremely lucrative. Why wouldn't Shimano want to try to protect their advantage as long as they can, especially since SRAM is now a competitor with Campagnolo?

Hey, I bought the 9speed ultegra a few years ago, just before the 10 speed came out. At least now I know the next gen is coming out this summer. I'll wait to see whats in store before buying new groupos. Man do I hate waiting though.

[Grant McLean]

How long will it be before somebody walks over to the team car, and takes
about a hundred photos of the group?

anyway... here are the shifter photos that can be found on the web in after
about 2 seconds of searching...

(the white plastic piece looks like it's there to disguise the final shape...)

-g

[DarrenCT]

The domain, duraace7900.com is available.


someone go ahead and buy it :)

[michael white]

There's always 2 sides to a story...


as in: don't throw bananas at the gorillas?

[mosca]

An embargo is not necessarily for the benefit of Shimano, but for all the retailers and press outlets that are competing for business/sales/advertising dollars from Shimano products. The embargo is supposed to keep any one business from gaining an unfair advantage. Usually the terms of the embargo are spelled out clearly before the information is released, but I fear that didn't happen in this case since Brendan does not seem like the type of person that would violate such an agreement. So it seems a bit random on Shimano's part, but I don't see it as self-serving, just trying to be fair.

My 0.02

[Grant McLean]

Why announce new products months in advance and dip into the sales of their current products? ....
Hey, I bought the 9speed ultegra a few years ago, just before the 10 speed came out. At least now I know the next gen is coming out this summer. I'll wait to see whats in store before buying new groupos.

An informed customer is a happy customer!

You can't have it both ways. The "new" stuff will be more expensive,
so why not let the customer decide which version they want? If they want to
wait and pay more, they can get the new ones. If not, buy it now for less.
It's the 'game' that bugs me.

-g

[MilanoTom]

There's always 2 sides to a story...

shill.





Just kidding. Seriously, there is undoubtedly a second side, but that second side might involve bullying and coersion.

Tom

[Big Dan]

shill.





Just kidding. Seriously, there is undoubtedly a second side, but that second side might involve bullying and coersion.

Tom

Well, so far the loudest ones are people that don't even ride Shimano.

:eek:

[Sandy]

I was in the wholesale meat business and purchased some items from IBP, a giant in the industry. There was a tremendous demand on their products as they were consistently excellent. I bought from both the beef and the pork divisions. The beef sales division was often amazingly independent and actually condescending and basically could care less if I ordered anything from them. They didn't need a little guy like me or lots of other little guys and their attitude clearly showed it. They did what they wanted to do since they were so big and controlled so much of the industry, and didn't need my relatively little orders. Shimano does what it wants to also, I guess, independent of what is best or fairest to its customers ,sometimes. It appears to me that Sram is going to make continued headway into Shimano sales, so I would think that they would be a little more sensitive to their customers. Size matters in industry as we all know.

The info wasn't secret. Perhaps Shimano should have done a more efficient job of keeping it silent if that was their intention.


Shimano Sandy

[MilanoTom]

Well, so far the loudest ones are people that don't even ride Shimano.

:eek:

I've actually got Ultegra on my beater bike.

I don't really give a darn about the new D/A; I just don't like to see bike shops bullied.

Tom

[Climb01742]

as a devoted shimano user, this "leak" has gotten me to postpone trying sram red. i'd guess shimano is a bit worried about red. the change in DA hoods seems clearly aimed at blunting sram's ergonomic advantage with the hoods.

but my hat is off to brendan. shimano may want all retailers to be equal, but every retailer is looking for an edge, a point of difference. brendan's in-depth write-ups and photos, and the site's quality are unique and compelling. good for him for trying to make cc.com "unequal".

[Keith A]

Okay...who has this write up cached on their computer that could post it here?

[stormyClouds]

i think that it might be a stretch to say that asking of removal of info about the unreleased group is a "marketing scam", "strong arming", or "bullying".
unless someone here works for shimano or has insider info about why they did it, it is all just speculation.
i work in advertising and see this kind of thing happen all of the time. there could be a ton of different reasons that they don't want it public yet. they may just have to work out some bugs on the components and don't want false info on the market before they get it dialed in. could be legal ramifications. point is, we don't know.
i am not partial to shimano, sram or campy. i just think it's interesting that many people immediately think that they are out to get you (the consumers and retailers) with their marketing strategy.

[victoryfactory]

This sure smacks of a marketing scam --quite honestly if I were considering SRAM Red I might hold off after reading the web "plants". If I had to guess I would say that the scam is to make people believe it will be out in September even though the real release date will be much later.

I think you're on the right track. Not even counting SRAM, Shimano doesn't
want to have their own customers stop buying the current stock to wait
for the new 7900. that is the thought that IMMEDIATELY occured to me
when I heard about the new kit.

Not a scam, just prudent business practice.


VF

[mcteague]

I like the fact that 7900 has little or no backwards compatibility. No piece by piece upgrades this time. Of course, I moved to Campy years ago and don't plan on changing any time soon.

Tim McTeague

[mosca]

Okay...who has this write up cached on their computer that could post it here?It's still up here, for now:

http://dirt-boy.blogspot.com/

[Grant McLean]

I think you're on the right track. Not even counting SRAM, Shimano doesn't
want to have their own customers stop buying the current stock to wait
for the new 7900. that is the thought that IMMEDIATELY occured to me
when I heard about the new kit.




VF

Shimano's customers are really Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, Giant, and the other
OEM clients. Those guys purchase hundreds of thousands of groups.
That's what Shimano worries about. Those 2009 orders are already in the pipe.

If Specialized sells a few hundred bikes with RED, Shimano doesn't care.
If Specialized switches all their dura ace orders to RED, then Shimano cares big time.
The rest isn't on their radar.

-g

[R2D2]

One reason not to leak information is so the current product in the supply chain gets sold.
Otherwise people say "I'll wait for the new group."

[deechee]

2009 Shimano Dura Ace 7900. New & improved gossip. (from www.competitvecyclist.com)

Most of the press we've seen in the last few months about the new-for-2009 Shimano Dura Ace has focused on the electronic version of DA. Stefan Schumacher medaled on eDA at last year's World Championship Road Race, and he and his Gerolsteiner team mates have served as guinea pigs for eDA ever since. While the pure novelty of electronic shifting tantalizes, we got our own medals (for bravery) for fighting at the Battle of Zap and Battle of Mektronic. While we're intrigued by the alleged telepathic shift quality of eDA, it's hard to shed our concerns for its weight, its durability, and its reliability.

The excitement over eDA has been noisy, and it's obscured an underappreciated fact: Along with eDA, Shimano is also releasing a new version of non-electronic DA. It'll be known as Dura Ace 7900, and we've finally seen our first confirmed technical details about 7900. The purpose of this What's New posting is to shed some light on what you'll be seeing in the new-for-2009 non-electronic Dura Ace.

Here's what we DON'T know about Dura Ace 7900: Weight and cost. As soon as we get this info, we'll pass it along. But, for now, all we have is basic technical info. And, sorry, we don't have photos either.

Here's what we DO know, on a component-by-component basis:

STI Levers -

Say farewell to exposed shifter housing. Shimano is making the change to under-the-bar-tape cable routing They refer to it as "integral shift cables". We wonder if Shimano-sponsored pros will find digging deep on the front a but tougher without shift cables to grab on for stability…
"Better access to the lever from upper side with closer pivot." Our interpretation of this means that the shape of the brake hood will be different. We've never enjoyed the deep hook of DA brake hoods, and to our ears it sounds like Shimano is modifying the shape to make it more SRAM/Campy-like. In other words, no more plunging hook, and instead you'll see a flatter hood. Beyond the ergonomic improvement, Shimano also claims this leads to smoother braking.
You get a reach adjustment mechanism. This is a nice feature of SRAM Red, as well. Folks with small hands should be very pleased.
20% shorter stroke to achieve shift engagement on the right lever.
Weight savings thanks to the use of a carbon brake lever and a titanium fixing band & bolt.

Rear Derailleur -

Carbon! The pulley plate will be made from carbon fiber. Shimano is a company built on their commitment to the forging of alloys, so any sort of branching out into composites is a big, big deal.
Increased chain wrap capacity. In other words, you can use a wide range of gears (e.g. a 50/34 & an 11/28) without having to resort to a "Triple" rear derailleur.
You get an "enhanced pulling cable method" with an audible click when the shift is complete. But the price of superior shifting is this: Dura Ace 7900 STI Levers and the 7900 Rear Derailleur will not be compatible with current 7800-series Dura Ace.

Front Derailleur -

Shimano claims that your days of trimming the front derailleur are over. No trimming will be required. This is a pretty big coup when you compare it to SRAM, since one big upside of Red (in comparison to their Force and Rival gruppos) was its inclusion of FD trim.
The FD spring tension has been re-tooled to achieve "featherlight downshifting".

Crankset -

Put aside your sugar-plum visions of a DA Carbon crankset. Rather, Shimano has forged their 7900-series aluminum crank with even thinner walls to make it lighter than any production carbon crankset in the marketplace.
When you use the 7900-series crankset with the new 7900-series chain, you'll get no front derailleur rub thanks to its new chainring/spider design. This also allegedly provides improved power transfer, thanks to the superior mating of chain and chainring.
More weight savings comes from its new aluminum/carbon composite BB axle.
Shimano will also introduce a 7950 version of the crankset, with 50/34 chainrings. This will be the first-ever Dura Ace compact crank (a full, what, 7 years since FSA introduced theirs?)

Chain -

The 7900 chain is known as the "Super Narrow" chain. The redesigned outer plate resists chain suck, and the new design of both the inner & outer plate mesh with the chainrings with such precision that Shimano claims it reduces mechanical friction by 0.6%. We're a bit unsure how to parse what that 0.6% converts to…Does that mean an extra 2.4w when you're making a 400w effort? We're unsure, and we're eager for a fuller explanation. Perhaps more important is the fact that Shimano also says it's a quieter chain.
The 7900-series chain has hollow pins and perforated plates to further reduce weight.
Shimano will introduce a "Quick Link" for its 10-speed chains. Our impression is that this means tool-free installation.

Cassette -

Like the chain and the crankset, the cassette sprockets get fine-tuned to optimize shifting, and the cog carrier is a lighter-than-ever aluminum.
You'll see a wider array of cassette ratio options. In addition to all of the options you get in 7800, you'll also see an 11/25, 11/27, and an 11/28. Before you laugh at the 11/28, keep in mind that this is SRAM's #1 selling cassette ratio! All the ratios made in the 7800 will be produced as 7900-series models as well.

Brake Calipers -

Dig this: "Enhanced brake arch proportion." We think this means that you get quicker caliper response when you hit your brake lever, and perhaps better stiffness under heavy braking. We suspect that this is a photo of the new brake. Interestingly, the boys over at the Weight Weenies forum pointed out that this poor rider appears to have his brake shoes on the wrong side…
Lower profile outer cable stop. This improves cable routing, which decreases drag and improves the snappiness of the lever. If you've ever installed a set of Zero Gravity brakes, you know that fine-tuned brake cable routing is something you should never take for granted.
The brake pad compound changes. Shimano claims that the improvement will be most noticeable in the wet, where stopping power improves 210%. In the dry, you should expect a 120% improvement in stopping power.
Add'l titanium hardware saves overall weight.

Flight Deck Computer -

It's still integrated into the STI levers, but the functionality gets much broader -- It includes a heart rate monitor, altimeter, and an inclinometer. It's a full-on 2.4GHz wireless system, and you can even download data wirelessly onto your PC.

A final note on our understanding about backwards compatibility:

Rear Drivetain -- The 7900 system is only compatible with other 7900 components. The 7900 rear derailleur is compatible with 7800-series cassettes, but that's it. There is no other cross-compatibility. This also means that 7800-series components cannot be used in piecemeal with 7900 if your plan is to upgrade one component at a time. More or less, you'll need to upgrade to 7900 STI, rear derailleur, cassette, and chain in one fell swoop.

Front Drivetrain -- Same story. There's an Iron Curtain between 7900 and 7800. The only kinda, sorta compatibility is between the 7900 front derailleur and the 7800 crankset. Shimano states "slower shifting may occur depending on frame dimension" if you choose to mix things like this. We're not sure if "dimension" means frame size or geometry or what. But we can't imagine someone running a full 7800 bike with the exception of a 7900 front derailleur, so it's not something we're terribly worried about.

Brake Systems -- The 7900 STI Levers are compatible with 7800-series brake calipers.

We're looking at a best-case scenario of a late September 2008 delivery timeline. We're sure it'll be all over the '08 Tour de France, and in full force at the Eurobike tradeshow shortly thereafter. But in terms of delivery, if it's before Halloween, we'll be stoked.

[BUTCH RIDES]

How long will it be before somebody walks over to the team car, and takes
about a hundred photos of the group?

anyway... here are the shifter photos that can be found on the web in after
about 2 seconds of searching...

(the white plastic piece looks like it's there to disguise the final shape...)

-g
the white may be to keep them from rattling .
b.

[Grant McLean]

.

[CarbonCycles]

An embargo is not necessarily for the benefit of Shimano, but for all the retailers and press outlets that are competing for business/sales/advertising dollars from Shimano products. The embargo is supposed to keep any one business from gaining an unfair advantage. Usually the terms of the embargo are spelled out clearly before the information is released, but I fear that didn't happen in this case since Brendan does not seem like the type of person that would violate such an agreement. So it seems a bit random on Shimano's part, but I don't see it as self-serving, just trying to be fair.

My 0.02

+1 well put

[Keith A]

Thanks mosca and deechee for providing the info.

[stevep]

grant, back up.

shimano takes this position at the request of its major oe purchasers... and their dealers who would go berserk to find that all their 7800 bikes were suddenly obsolete....and as a practical element in the production cycle.
when the oe managers are invited to see the yet to be introduced new, cool products they all agree to not talk for public consumption about what they see and availability.
to imagine that a room full of bike geeks would not leak what they know or that nobody would see and take pictures of team bikes testing versions of the stuff is a hallucination... hence their new stuff gets leaked all over the place.

now, trek ( for example ) might have 3,000 bikes already in the pipeline having paid for da 7800 parts for all. distributors have tons of it on the way or in inventory, a new product release diminishes the value of that inventory before the fool things are made or shipped never mind on the dealers floor....by the time these things arrive at a dealer... his geek customers ( go look into mirror to see one ) only want the new stuff that he wont see for 6 more months.
" i think i'll wait for the new stuff, etc, etc"
there is a long way from the beta versions that you are looking at photos of and the real production product. they are trying to allow time to manufacture as well as time for the pipeline to clear a little.

just understand from one bike geek to another..there are 2 sides to this story.

grant, take yr medicine. its good for youmo.

[Grant McLean]

there is a long way from the beta versions that you are looking at photos of and the real production product. they are trying to allow time to manufacture as well as time for the pipeline to clear a little.

.

Why should the public operate under a different set of rules than the retailers
and manufacturers?

This is why Shimano should just put a launch date on the calender, and then
it doesn't matter what people see. Most people won't wait a whole season
if they really are in the market for a bike now.

In my experience as a retailer, it's the very uncertainty that makes
the customers hold back their purchases, not the knowledge of the future!
If Shimano launches new dura ace in december 08, if you're shopping for a
bike in March 08, you know what you're getting. But what really happens?
You buy a Dura Ace bike in May, knowing nothing, and then in June, when your
bike is 1 month old, you see photos of the new stuff, and assume it's around
the corner, and you feel ripped off, even though it's still really almost a season away.



-g

[FMS_rider]

grant, back up.

shimano takes this position at the request of its major oe purchasers... and their dealers who would go berserk to find that all their 7800 bikes were suddenly obsolete....and as a practical element in the production cycle.
when the oe managers are invited to see the yet to be introduced new, cool products they all agree to not talk for public consumption about what they see and availability.
to imagine that a room full of bike geeks would not leak what they know or that nobody would see and take pictures of team bikes testing versions of the stuff is a hallucination... hence their new stuff gets leaked all over the place.

now, trek ( for example ) might have 3,000 bikes already in the pipeline having paid for da 7800 parts for all. distributors have tons of it on the way or in inventory, a new product release diminishes the value of that inventory before the fool things are made or shipped never mind on the dealers floor....by the time these things arrive at a dealer... his geek customers ( go look into mirror to see one ) only want the new stuff that he wont see for 6 more months.
" i think i'll wait for the new stuff, etc, etc"
there is a long way from the beta versions that you are looking at photos of and the real production product. they are trying to allow time to manufacture as well as time for the pipeline to clear a little.

just understand from one bike geek to another..there are 2 sides to this story.

grant, take yr medicine. its good for youmo.I must admit your analysis rings true --but I am glad you waited --conspiracy theories are so much fun to think up and discuss.

Lew

[stevep]

grant mclean shot jfk and then fled to canada.

i have proof...
he hates bikes too.

[72gmc]

I remember buying an iMac years ago, asking point blank if there was a new model to wait for, being told "no," and then being pissed when the new model was on the sales floor in a month. To Grant's point, a date on a calendar could prevent this kind of thing. It's better than rumors and leaks.

Personally, I think the lack of backwards compatibility might drive some sales for the previous group. I wouldn't be surprised if the "10 speed only" hubs already are.

[AgilisMerlin]

Shimano is not nuts,

the world is :no:

[shinomaster]

I forgot...why else don't we like Shimano?

[maunahaole]

Because shimano oem lubricants are penguin based.

[Grant McLean]

I remember buying an iMac years ago, asking point blank if there was a new model to wait for, being told "no," and then being pissed when the new model was on the sales floor in a month.

That happened to me with my powerbook. Picked it up on friday,
monday they upgraded the hard drive, ram, and dropped the price.
My dealer stepped up, gave me $300 back, and won my loyalty.

What I don't get is how Shimano can't forcast their business to recognize
the reality of the model year lifespan of the selling cycle. Somehow just
about every other brand can fill the pipeline to the correct amount for model
year introductions. Burton snowboard models change every year. People
don't refuse to by a new one just because there will be another one next year.

-g

[AgilisMerlin]

I won't be buying any electric drivetrain. Shimano won't release it, cause the price is a real "shocker"

[erector]

1. I have an apple, and the same thing happened to me. The problem with technology is that it updates itself too fast. When buying a computer, think about buying a car, and accept the fact that as soon as you open it, the resale value will be half, or darn close.

2. I love that censored picture.

3. Shimano, as we know, is not solely a bicycle component company. I'm not sure why they would have an embargo, but when I worked at SuperGo(ne) I did have time to talk with their reps. I asked why, when they upgrade, they don't still make replacement parts for the old stuff, and the rep said straight out that it would be bad for business. He also told me not to worry, because we could get pro-deals on any gruppo we wanted. That doesn't really help me out right now, because I don't work at the shop anymore.
I read on the Competitive site, before the embargo, about how none of the old components from 7800 are going to be compatible with the new 7900 stuff. It will not be cheap, I project a high bling status, but with any new product, I would recommend waiting for version 2.0, unless you have money to burn, in which case PM me and maybe we can make a deal

[roman meal]

I won't be buying any electric drivetrain. Shimano won't release it, cause the price is a real "shocker"


yer battery will die in the cold anyway

[shinomaster]

.

[AgilisMerlin]

yer battery will die in the cold anyway


batteries for a drivetrain that you could run by hand it totally STUPID,

crap that you have to send back instead of fix yourself is STUPID

I quess this is the end of the Chapter 4 me w/ Newer Dura Ace.................fork em'


Roman, thanks for baiting the hook.........i needed to vent..........


P.S. - what the hel(l) are you supposed to do with an Electronic malfunctioning Der. (is it the levers, the der, the signal, the battery) and then the eventual trip to the shop.........where they have to send the part back to Shimano. I had a friend up here years ago, who ran mektronic.........he showed me how he would pull the rubber boot back and reboot the der. then it just failed............crap

if you cannot work and fix your own crap.......what the hell is the point.....really............just cause it is new and thinks for you...............

thanks for letting me rant..........who do I cut the check to ?

[WickedWheels]

Why should the public operate under a different set of rules than the retailers
and manufacturers?

This is why Shimano should just put a launch date on the calender, and then
it doesn't matter what people see. Most people won't wait a whole season
if they really are in the market for a bike now.

In my experience as a retailer, it's the very uncertainty that makes
the customers hold back their purchases, not the knowledge of the future!
If Shimano launches new dura ace in december 08, if you're shopping for a
bike in March 08, you know what you're getting. But what really happens?
You buy a Dura Ace bike in May, knowing nothing, and then in June, when your
bike is 1 month old, you see photos of the new stuff, and assume it's around
the corner, and you feel ripped off, even though it's still really almost a season away.



-g

+1

People know that are so in the "know" as to know this stuff are already aware that 2009 D-A will not be seen until December of 2008. The first 100 groups will ship to shops in December, then it won't be available until late Feb 2009.

To force a "media embargo" is ludicrous. Somehow it seem wrong to me. If it was my shop I'd tell the big "S" to go f&ck itself and post whatever I wanted to. Then, if I was blacklisted, I'd start pushing Campy and SRAM and start relying on gray market for things that MUST be Shimano.

[stevep]

What I don't get is how Shimano can't forcast their business to recognize
the reality of the model year lifespan of the selling cycle. -g

all they are doing is filling orders from oe companies.
90% of their business is oe.
and developing new products
they arent doing some manipulation. they arent screwing up. they are just making and shipping bike parts that are largely excellent quality.

specialized orders 4,000 da groups. they know exactly when they need them.
shimano just makes them and fills them. then the dealer hopefully sells the bikes.

and hopefully improves the next version.
which will be introduced largely with new model introductions at the trade shows, i doubt that anyone will get their hands on one of these new groups before christmas...mostly they wil be on 09 bikes.

this company is not the evil empire. they are a well run company that makes good stuff. they drive the market we live in. wonder why campy is rarely if ever used by oes? cause they cannot fullfill the simple supply chain function satisfactorily. not campy vs shimano here.
this is business not hobby.

we are in it for the hobby.
they are in it for the business.

[WickedWheels]

all they are doing is filling orders from oe companies.
90% of their business is oe.
and developing new products
they arent doing some manipulation. they arent screwing up. they are just making and shipping bike parts that are largely excellent quality.

specialized orders 4,000 da groups. they know exactly when they need them.
shimano just makes them and fills them. then the dealer hopefully sells the bikes.

and hopefully improves the next version.
which will be introduced largely with new model introductions at the trade shows, i doubt that anyone will get their hands on one of these new groups before christmas...mostly they wil be on 09 bikes.

this company is not the evil empire. they are a well run company that makes good stuff. they drive the market we live in. wonder why campy is rarely if ever used by oes? cause they cannot fullfill the simple supply chain function satisfactorily. not campy vs shimano here.
this is business not hobby.

we are in it for the hobby.
they are in it for the business.

Sure, they have to cater to the wants of the OE market but a "media embargo"?! It's just silly! Why bother a small bike shop about this stuff? Besides, where the OE going to go and how pissed could they possibly be if some news leaks out about an upcoming group?

[Grant McLean]

all they are doing is filling orders from oe companies.


ok, guess i've said enough....

It just makes me laugh that they think it makes any difference
trying to shut down people from talking about it. It's the internets.
Blame Al Gore... :)

-g

[stevep]

alex,
calm down boy.
remember the product introduction a month or so ago was only for bike designers. the guys who need to know the products to be used for 09 bikes mostly. it was not meant to be public consumption. you cant buy the stuff. you guys already know as much as you need to know... you have a decent idea..thats enough. you want customers all day every day chatting up the 09 stuff when yr floor is packed w/ 08? you sure?
you guys would be all over freakin out if they introduced the new line... showed it, let out demo stuff, made a big splash, etc and the small print read...
available in 9 months...cause we havent made it yet.

also, show me the bike company that moved away from shimano and tried with campy- very unreliable* oe vendor or sram... very, very limited availability... on road stuff. its not as easy as it looks

* perfect campy example. when the 10 spd stuff was first introduced.. they made and delivered all the parts...with the exception of the cranksets- grant, you remember this- without the cranksets the parts were beyond useless. the cranks were deliveered almost a year later. a bike designer would get his arse out the door for a bunch of bikes waiting for cranks...therefore the next year he would spec shimano.



+ To force a "media embargo" is ludicrous. Somehow it seem wrong to me. If it was my shop I'd tell the big "S" to go f&ck itself and post whatever I wanted to. Then, if I was blacklisted, I'd start pushing Campy and SRAM and start relying on gray market for things that MUST be Shimano.

[fiamme red]

.Wonderful drawing, Shino. You're very talented atmo. :)

[Big Dan]

+1

People know that are so in the "know" as to know this stuff are already aware that 2009 D-A will not be seen until December of 2008. The first 100 groups will ship to shops in December, then it won't be available until late Feb 2009.

To force a "media embargo" is ludicrous. Somehow it seem wrong to me. If it was my shop I'd tell the big "S" to go f&ck itself and post whatever I wanted to. Then, if I was blacklisted, I'd start pushing Campy and SRAM and start relying on gray market for things that MUST be Shimano.


Hey this guy really knows how to run a business..........
Maybe he can write a book or something....

[FMS_rider]

Wonderful drawing, Shino. You're very talented atmo. :)Agreed, but the frog does need some color.

[Grant McLean]

you want customers all day every day chatting up the 09 stuff when yr floor is packed w/ 08? you sure?
you guys would be all over freakin out if they introduced the new line... showed it, let out demo stuff, made a big splash, etc and the small print read...
available in 9 months...cause we havent made it yet.
.

I'm just thinkin' Shimano should have the sack to say, ya the pro's are riding it,
and it's coming for '09. That's true right? What's wrong with that?

Go to a car show... The concepts are there years ahead...
yet people still buy new cars, they want/need one now.
The big car introductions are done a full season ahead, it's not a
secret...

Anyway... i hope on DBRK's behalf, the 10speed DT shifters still work with
the new derailleurs... :p

-g

[WickedWheels]

alex,


also, show me the bike company that moved away from shimano and tried with campy- very unreliable* oe vendor or sram... very, very limited availability... on road stuff. its not as easy as it looks



That's exactly what I'm saying... maybe it shouldn't be an issue that info about new stuff is released early. After all, if Specialized or Trek or Giant complain, where can they go? Let them b!tch.

I just think it's silly to harass the little bike shop. Maybe I'm becoming a republican???

[WickedWheels]

[/B]


Hey this guy really knows how to run a business..........
Maybe he can write a book or something....

I know of plenty of successful shops that did that exact same thing with Trek, for example, when they started being pushy. There's nothing wrong with a small shop telling a big company to beat it. Big guys need to be kept in check once in a while, or they'll really start throwing their weight around.

[Big Dan]

I know of plenty of successful shops that did that exact same thing with Trek, for example, when they started being pushy. There's nothing wrong with a small shop telling a big company to beat it. Big guys need to be kept in check once in a while, or they'll really start throwing their weight around.


That's why I'm saying you have a great idea. Run with it.
I think you'll hit it big soon........

[Simon Q]

.

I like your drawing!

I am gald they they have buried the shifting cables, about time. Shifters look like they would be comfy. Not as comfy as Campy though...all in the hands of the beholder!

[swoop]

grant,

thats the 08 stevep. i've got the 09 stevep here in shrink wrap. frocking sexy.
he's got a faux hawk and is 29% more aero.

[Fivethumbs]

I completely understand Shimano's position. I was about to drop a load on some new chainrings but now I'm waitin' for the Rotor/Biopace ones to come out. They're gonna have to sell those other chainrings to someone else..HA!

Actually, I think Shimano is afraid they're gonna be sued by SRAM because (I read) the new DA uses one lever for up and down shifting.

[shinomaster]

Agreed, but the frog does need some color.


Thanks guys. The boss was at work today, and there is just so much that I can do on the D_L. :beer:

[stevep]

im down w/ alex here.
i knew him when he was just a local punk..
him and i make a perfect combo.
he's right 1/2 the time and i'm right the other half.
s


I know of plenty of successful shops that did that exact same thing with Trek, for example, when they started being pushy. There's nothing wrong with a small shop telling a big company to beat it. Big guys need to be kept in check once in a while, or they'll really start throwing their weight around.

[stevep]

grant,

thats the 08 stevep. i've got the 09 stevep here in shrink wrap. frocking sexy.
he's got a faux hawk and is 29% more aero.

survey.
09 tats on the face or no?
need to know...have to schedule w/ kayle a year out.
i wanted a sachs tattoo but the wait list is too longmo.

[Erik.Lazdins]

.

That is a very scary looking dragon!

I like the Penguin

I ride Campy

[Dave]

* perfect campy example. when the 10 spd stuff was first introduced.. they made and delivered all the parts...with the exception of the cranksets- grant, you remember this- without the cranksets the parts were beyond useless. the cranks were deliveered almost a year later. a bike designer would get his arse out the door for a bunch of bikes waiting for cranks...therefore the next year he would spec shimano.

Are we talking large quantities of OE parts? I had no problems getting an entire Campy Record 10 (no hub) group in February of 2000, for $1300. I don't think Campy is interested in expanding to fill large volume orders. They have their niche and seem content with it.

[stevep]

dont remember the year
just the event.
first introduction of 10 spd parts...
only 170 cranks for 1st 6 months... then dribbled in other sizes. was a year before supply was reasonable.
its part of why they are rarely used for oe.


Are we talking large quantities of OE parts? I had no problems getting an entire Campy Record 10 (no hub) group in February of 2000, for $1300. I don't think Campy is interested in expanding to fill large volume orders. They have their niche and seem content with it.

[stormyClouds]

I don't think Campy is interested in expanding to fill large volume orders. They have their niche and seem content with it.
do you really think that campy doesn't want more market share?