Kettlebells

[Ray]

We discussed this briefly a couple of years ago, but I wanted to see if there are any other kettlebell users on the forum at this point.

I've used them on and off for several years now. After a layoff, I just picked them up and started again in the last couple of weeks (late winter is when I finally start really FEELING out of shape and start to motivate to do something about it). Starting off with a relatively easy and rudimentary workout, just doing some basic one and two-handed swings, I got so sore I could barely move two days later. You know how you can almost feel sick when you have enough muscle soreness a couple of days after a really hard workout? That was me - like the flu without a fever. I recovered and have now worked back to a level where its not a painful proposition.

Anyway, the thing that amazes me about these workouts is WHERE I feel sore afterwards. It seems like all of the places you want to be strong for cycling. The quads, the glutes, the hams, and every part of the core you could imagine, front to back, top to bottom. When I used to do traditional weight lifting, I could always feel the specific muscles I worked in particular exercises, but not such a universal soreness from essentially one exercise. Again, this is sticking to the most basic kettlebell moves. You can do all sorts of upper body stuff with them too, but I tend not to do much of that.

I was first turned onto these things by another cyclist who swore by them. He got so into them that I think he all but gave up cycling and became a kettlebell instructor. I'm in no danger of that happening, but I do like 'em. Lots more fun than typical weights too, for me anyway.

Anyone else had any experience with 'em?

-Ray

[don'TreadOnMe]

Ray,

Can you point out a worthwhile intro to them?

Thanks!

[Ray]

I hesitate because the marketing is pretty overwhelming and potentially puke-inducing. But here's one of the main sites that has a FAQ that might be of use. The guy calls everyone COMRADE and insists that working with kettlebells will make you a Russian fighter. Hasn't happened to me. Yet, anyway :cool:
You could probably do a search and find something a little less silly.

http://www.dragondoor.com/kettlebells/?c=kb001&gclid=CMzjlvubipICFSK9FQodXESADA#whatis

Or, being local, if you want to stop by some day, you can check 'em out directly.

-Ray

[don'TreadOnMe]

'Preciate it, COMRADE!

;-)

[William]

Two of my students are personal trainers who use kettle bells extensively and have turned me onto them. They are a great training tool….comrades. :beer:

I can’t remember the guys name, but I have a KB training video where the guy does a neck bridge on the floor, and then does presses with the KB’s. Sick!.




William

[coopdog]

Comrade, I move this thread be deleted. You are giving away my secrets!!! :crap:

I love kb's. You can take them outside on a pretty day and swing away. I was just thinking of knocking out another round (4 weeks) of heavy weights then going to a steady diet of kb's for the rest of the season.

Pavel, the evil russian, started the kb craze. I've done some of his other strength training stuff. Though it defies conventional wisom to some degree, it works for me.

[toaster]

DragonDoor and Pavel Tsatsouline are indeed overwhelming and sadly this makes getting good info difficult. YouTube has some videos where you can learn more about the basic exercises than from Pavel's website. Paying a bunch of money for Pavel's book, Enter the Kettlebell and buying his kettlebells at extreme prices is just too outrageous. Go to your local bookstore and get a sample reading for free before making a decision to purchase.

I bought my kettlebells at a Play It Again Sports outlet where I saved a lot of money compared to the evil russian. You don't want to pay for shipping on these things!

Kettlebell swings, cleans and snatches are great. Expect some bruises with the cleans and snatches until you get the hang of it.

Another great alternative or supplemental weight lifting regimen is power type training as outlined by author Robert dos Remedios in Power Training, published by Men's Health (Rodale).

[fiamme red]

There is something cult-like about the fervor with which Comrade Pavel's followers preach the kettlebell gospel.

There's nothing magical about kettlebells. They are just a tool, like dumbbells or barbells. But they are much more expensive, and their weight is fixed, not adjustable in small increments. And while almost all gyms have free weights of some kind, almost none have kettlebells, so you're limited to buying expensive equipment yourself and working out at home.

[Ray]

There is something cult-like about the fervor with which Comrade Pavel's followers preach the kettlebell gospel.

There's nothing magical about kettlebells. They are just a tool, like dumbbells or barbells. But they are much more expensive, and their weight is fixed, not adjustable in small increments. And while almost all gyms have free weights of some kind, almost none have kettlebells, so you're limited to buying expensive equipment yourself and working out at home.
Agree, some can get cult-like. Almost like Serotta owners :cool:

And Pavel's marketing is about as obnoxious as anything out there. Fortunately, other parties are starting to make and sell them so you don't need to subject yourself to him if you don't want to.

And no, they're not magic. But they're very well suited to a handfull of exercises that I find give me a more effective all-body workout than I ever got with conventional weights. They may or may not be better than dumbells or barbells, depending on what type of workout you want. For certain goals, they probably don't work as well, but for my goals, they're better than conventional weights.

They actually sell adjustable ones now, with "slices" that can either consist of heavy metal or very light plastic, so you can buy one or two of those and increase the weight as you get stronger, so they are now adjustable in small increments if you want to go that way. I've bought a total of three kettlebells over the years and I doubt I'll ever want anything heavier than what I have now, so I've made all the investment I'm likely to need to. Even at the inflated prices I paid, I've spent less than I'd pay for a good pair of new brifters, so its not that much in perspective. Seems like there are more sources for them now, so the prices are coming down. Better if you can find 'em locally, though, because shipping those weights can cost more than the kettlebell itself.

For people who have a very specific weight-training regimen and goals, they're probably not ideal. But for cyclists and other people who just want to stay strong where it matters and stay in shape in the off-season, they might just be ideal. That's my experience anyway.

-Ray

[coylifut]

here guys. this is the holly grail of off bike training. nothing more efficient than this. And, yes there's lot's of kettlebell workouts.

www.crossfit.com

[fiamme red]

here guys. this is the holly grail of off bike training. nothing more efficient than this. And, yes there's lot's of kettlebell workouts.

www.crossfit.comDo you follow their program?

It seems to emphasize endurance (e.g., Run 800 meters, 50 Back Extensions, 50 Sit-ups) over progressive gains in strength. And it looks like a "one size fits all" program, which I strongly disagree with. We should listen to our bodies, not to some arbitrary and impersonal daily workout.

And using different exercises every single workout is a bad idea, because your body isn't given time to adapt. A repeated and progressive stimulus will be far more beneficial.

[TriJim]

There is something cult-like about the fervor with which Comrade Pavel's followers preach the kettlebell gospel.

There's nothing magical about kettlebells. They are just a tool, like dumbbells or barbells. But they are much more expensive, and their weight is fixed, not adjustable in small increments. And while almost all gyms have free weights of some kind, almost none have kettlebells, so you're limited to buying expensive equipment yourself and working out at home.
Another KB user. You see a liability, I see an asset.
expensive equipment? I paid 35 Euro for my 36# and 50 Euro for 53#.
at home? I don't need a spotter and prefer the "total body workout" at home, particularly with Turkish Get-ups and Halos.

I laugh at Pavel's "comrade" and "manly" talk. Everybody has a "schtick."

He!!s Be!!s :beer:

[fixednwinter]

Ray;

Thanks for this thread - I was quite ignorant of kettlebells, and had assumed they were functionally the same as regular freeweights. You've opened my mind to giving these a try as an alternative to my usual strength training with freeweights.

And certainly, that link was quite amusing! Legitimate advantages of kettlebells notwithstanding, I found the over-the-top hype pretty funny :)

[sc53]

Quoting Pavel:
Kettlebells forge doers' physiques along the lines of antique statues: broad shoulders with just a hint of pecs, back muscles standing out in bold relief, wiry arms, rugged forearms, a cut-up midsection, and strong legs without a hint of squatter's chafing.

Having met Ray at the Ramble, I can attest that he did indeed strike me as having the physique of an antique statue. One question: can women do these things? What size/weight of bell is recommended?

[fiamme red]

Quoting Pavel:
Kettlebells forge doers' physiques along the lines of antique statues: broad shoulders with just a hint of pecs, back muscles standing out in bold relief, wiry arms, rugged forearms, a cut-up midsection, and strong legs without a hint of squatter's chafing. Kettlebells melt fat without the dishonor of dieting or aerobics. If you are overweight, you will lean out. If you are skinny, you will get built up. According to Voropayev (1997) who studied top Russian gireviks, 21.2% increased their bodyweight since taking up kettlebelling and 21.2% (the exact same percentage, not a typo), mostly heavyweights, decreased it. The Russian kettlebell is a powerful tool for fixing your body comp, whichever way it needs fixing.

Kettlebells are magical! :rolleyes:

[fiamme red]

Another KB user. You see a liability, I see an asset.
expensive equipment? I paid 35 Euro for my 36# and 50 Euro for 53#.But are they "authentic Russian kettlebells"? :p

[Ray]

And certainly, that link was quite amusing! Legitimate advantages of kettlebells notwithstanding, I found the over-the-top hype pretty funny :)
You think that was over the top, check out the DVD. I started watching it and quickly realized the first viewing would have to be for comic relief. After I finished laughing, I watched it again to learn the lifts. Every sentence begins with "COMRADE, are you ready to accept the Russian kettlebell CHALLENGE?" or something to that effect. In Pavel's American-Russian accent, which is about as goofy as Mick Jagger's southern accent.

Having met Ray at the Ramble, I can attest that he did indeed strike me as having the physique of an antique statue. One question: can women do these things? What size/weight of bell is recommended?
Sarah, you must be thinking of the other Ray - nothin' statuesque happenin' here. Unless you're thinking of one of those beat up statues with half of the head and one arm missing.

But, yeah, women can do 'em. If you go to the page I linked above, they have recommended weights along the right side of the page - a set for men and a set for women.

-Ray

[OldDog]

I've strengthened my grip and increased forearm endurance, adding 3/8" girth to my wrists using cowbells.....oh, wrong bells...

[TriJim]

But are they "authentic Russian kettlebells"? :p
Funny you should ask... I purchased them (new) from eBay Deutschland. Arrived in plain brown boxes; no manufacturer, brand name, or any other labels. I'm sure they're from the "motherland," Comrade. None of that sissy pink or yellow stuff. :beer:

[dauwhe]

Gotta do something with leftover iron and concrete from Chernobyl...

Dave

[Oirad]

You can get the same kind of power, strength, endurance workouts with dumbells. The grip is obviously different and the mechanics slightly different, but both are pretty much the same. You can do swings, one/two arm cleans, snatches, farmer walks, overhead squats with both KBs and DBs. If I'm not mistaken, KBs tend to be more expensive than DBs and the latter come in a larger range of weights.

All of this woefully IMHO -- Oirad

[goldyjackson]

My other sports thing is squash. I run some camps in the summer, and one of the guys I've brought down for the last 5 years has trained a world champion from Canada. This trainer is the kind of guy who finds out he's interested in something, then he'll find out who's best at it, and he'll go pay the guy/girl to teach him. Without a doubt, one of the most informed trainer's I've ever met. Let's call him "Bob," because that's his name.

Bob turned me onto these a few years ago to improve my overall strength, and they are amazing. It's true that you can do some (or a lot) of the stuff with regular old weights, but overall it embraces a totally different philosophy about weightlifting. Acc. to Bob, the Pavel dude is worth a look. Cut through the marketing and learn something. In a couple of years, with very targeted, but a lot of overall strengthening work, I'm a completely different player. Can't recommend the KBs enough.

They come in a few "sizes" and Bob uses these with 15 year old girls, if that helps a woman who might be hesitant.

Turkish getups are the most amazing exercise, btw...

Cheers.

Jon

[Ray]

You can get the same kind of power, strength, endurance workouts with dumbells. The grip is obviously different and the mechanics slightly different, but both are pretty much the same. You can do swings, one/two arm cleans, snatches, farmer walks, overhead squats with both KBs and DBs. If I'm not mistaken, KBs tend to be more expensive than DBs and the latter come in a larger range of weights.

All of this woefully IMHO -- Oirad
I did as much as I could with the dumbells I had before I bought the kettlebells. The swings you can do and get roughly the same benefit, but the grip is much less secure and the weight not hanging below your hands, so the dynamic is noticeably different. For cleans and snatches, its not even close - the swinging weight of the kettlebell creates an altogether different thing than the still weight of a dumbell in your hand. Don't know from farmer walks, but overhead squats are just as good with dumbells since the weight isn't really moving once you have it up in place. For anything where the weight is moving throughout the exercise, though, I'd say the dymanic of the swinging weight at the end of the handle makes kettlebells very different than dumbells. And much more to my liking. Pavel would say it also makes you stronger Comrade!

The key with any of 'em is to USE them, though and I actually enjoy kettlebells and never did enjoy traditional weightlifting. Hence, I use 'em more.

-Ray

[jerk]

fruck kettlebells. true soviet training style in learning how to dig a 12 inch deep trench in 12 minutes and learning how to kill a chechen with the same shovel.

jerk

[avalonracing]

Hey, if they work for you fine but I think that they are yet another trend. My neighbor is a big kettlebell advocate and he gives me a hard time about my work out being less efficient but I am in MUCH better shape than he is (he'll admit this too). I do, pushups, pullups, crunches and dumbbell work but mostly it's about using my own body weight.

From what I've seen of kettlebells it just looks like a faster route to injury for most people and something that will get boring pretty quickly.

I also have a big problem with the expense. It's like gluing a draw handle to a bowling ball and charging $75 for it.

[Ray]

Hey, if they work for you fine but I think that they are yet another trend. My neighbor is a big kettlebell advocate and he gives me a hard time about my work out being less efficient but I am in MUCH better shape than he is (he'll admit this too). I do, pushups, pullups, crunches and dumbbell work but mostly it's about using my own body weight.

From what I've seen of kettlebells it just looks like a faster route to injury for most people and something that will get boring pretty quickly.

I also have a big problem with the expense. It's like gluing a draw handle to a bowling ball and charging $75 for it.
Trendy kind of like yoga. They've been around for at least a few hundred years ("Russians have known kettlebells at least as long as they've known Vodka") and there's some speculation (according to a site I just found) that they go back to ancient Greece. Like a lot of simple concepts, it takes us a while to catch up (catch down?) in the US, but they're not new.

Nobody's claiming they're the only way to get in shape or even the best way, but they're a pretty cool alternative that work really well for some people. I find using them less boring than other forms of weight training I've tried. I agree about the cost, but there's increasing competition now and the prices seem to have come down quite a bit. And you don't need zillions of them, just a few. Hell, I've spent far more on free weights, benches, and an earlier weight machine than I've spent on the three kettlebells I've owned. And I bought them before they got cheaper.

-Ray

[coopdog]

I've seen kettlebells at Academy Sports and Target. They are not much more, if any, than dumbbells.

[avalonracing]

Trendy kind of like yoga. They've been around for at least a few hundred years ("Russians have known kettlebells at least as long as they've known Vodka") and there's some speculation (according to a site I just found) that they go back to ancient Greece. Like a lot of simple concepts, it takes us a while to catch up (catch down?) in the US, but they're not new.
-Ray

I don't mean to say that they are new. By trendy I'm just saying that they are the latest fad for many people. There is a lot of hype about them now and in a couple of years they will just be another dumbbell that sits in the corner of the gym.

[Oirad]

Right Ray, I'd forgotten that the swing dynamic is different on KBs (from DBs).

Ultimately, it all comes down to what works for you and if you stay motivated.

Bodyweight exercises are great, of course, as avalonracing points out; but it's hard to develop power (rather than just strength and endurance), unless maybe you do serious ring training. A good mix of everything, keeping it all a little spontaneous and randomizing a bit, keeps the body guessing and is good for functional strength.

Hey, and there are probably even benefits to your riding.

-- Oirad

[Chad Engle]

Fad or not, if they get people exercising they can't be bad. To each their own.

Personally I like to lift live goats by the horns. You wanna talk about swing dynamics...

[fixednwinter]

A good mix of everything, keeping it all a little spontaneous and randomizing a bit, keeps the body guessing and is good for functional strength.

Hey, and there are probably even benefits to your riding.
-- Oirad

This is a very good point - changing up your routine, whether it's in the gym or the type of riding that you do, on a regular basis, is a key factor, both physically and mentally. If kettlebells adds another arrow in the quiver, all the better.

[Ray]

Personally I like to lift live goats by the horns. You wanna talk about swing dynamics...
No doubt, but can you get them in small increments? :cool:

-Ray

[thejen12]

No doubt, but can you get them in small increments? :cool:

-Ray
Sure, they're called pygmy goats. If you want to go really small, you can use kids, but you have to swing them by their ears. :eek:

Jenn ;)

[Chad Engle]

thejen12 Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
No doubt, but can you get them in small increments?

-Ray


Sure, they're called pygmy goats. If you want to go really small, you can use kids, but you have to swing them by their ears.

Jenn

Spot on, on light days, I use the mini goats at the local zoo. Cheaper than a gym membership and it certainly couldn't be considered a fad. Not yet anyway.

[imm]

Search the web, there's a bunch out there!

[fiamme red]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/12/03/2008-12-03_lance_armstrong_reveals_his_killer_worko.html

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/04/alg_lance.jpg

[girlie]

.

[Chris]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/12/03/2008-12-03_lance_armstrong_reveals_his_killer_worko.html

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/04/alg_lance.jpg

guess they are out for me then.

[fiamme red]

Still, I'd have to take Laura Van Gilder over LANCE any day in an arm-wrestling match.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/?id=2002/features/nicole_reinhart/MT06

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2006/jul06/toona06/toona067/mz06toona7_27

[SoCalSteve]

guess they are out for me then.

Wow, how sad is that... Does that mean that you don't donate to cancer research as well?

Just askin'

Steve

[Viper]

What are they? From 1928? They're dumbbells welded together, with a handle you can grab. Anaerobic weights, iron etc, are supposed to be pressed or pulled slowly, contracted. Aerobic movements we know are steady or quick, for the heart; simply taking two dumbbells welded together, yanking and tossing them around your body reminds me of the Ben Franklin quote, "Never confuse motion with action" as there are no muscles contracting and a heart receiving a so-so workout.

I think this is a joke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h1QcHTkwdI

I think this is a total joke, but the girls are better looking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5uU7ku-Lo&feature=related

Please, just really, please:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZK4DeO0Sg&feature=related

:D

[fiamme red]

Anaerobic weights, iron etc, are supposed to be pressed or pulled slowly, contracted.Have you never watched Olympic weightlifting?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/28/cg_108096272_gallery__550x412.jpg

[Ray]

What are they? From 1928? They're dumbbells welded together, with a handle you can grab. Anaerobic weights, iron etc, are supposed to be pressed or pulled slowly, contracted. Aerobic movements we know are steady or quick, for the heart; simply taking two dumbbells welded together, yanking and tossing them around your body reminds me of the Ben Franklin quote, "Never confuse motion with action" as there are no muscles contracting and a heart receiving a so-so workout.

Ever tried 'em?

You can quote me all of the physiology you want, but I can tell you that every year when I start swinging the bells again, I get INTENSELY sore in all of the muscles I use on a bike and several that I don't. I slowly lose the soreness and increase the weights over the course of the winter and I'm real happy with the results. There are a few conventional presses you can do with 'em, but the swings are where a lot of the conditioning comes from. You can call Lance a lot of things (and I'm sure I have), but stupid he's not. He wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work.

I'm stickin' with 'em.

-Ray

[Chris]

Wow, how sad is that... Does that mean that you don't donate to cancer research as well?

Just askin'

Steve

I was being facetious, but I don't find it sad to not want to be associated much with Lance or any of his ilk. I don't wear one of those cheesy yellow bands and never have. I have given to the LAF, but not because of Lance. I did it for Fatcyclist. I don't however, believe that there is anything wrong with not donating to cancer research for whatever reason. There are lots of causes out there that are just as deserving and in need of attention. Maybe more so. Cancer is a bad thing and that is a given, but so are lots of other debilitating or terminal conditions. Let's not forget that the LAF wouldn't exist if Lance didn't have cancer. To me, that isn't that admirable. Prior to having his own medical crisis, he went along and did whatever and gave to whatever under the radar, if he gave at all. To me, that is more admirable than being stricken with an illness and then all of a sudden deciding that it needed to be a national priority, when before your illness, you had never mentioned a concern about it. That just smacks of the narcissicism for which Lance is all too well known.

My personal charity of choice is the special olympics. I have no family members or personal experience with developmental disabilities, it just happens to be one of the human conditions that tug at my heart strings. What's yours? If you didn't have a cause to support before some a$$hole athlete came down with it, then I personally think that is sad...

Just answerin'

Chris

[Viper]

Ever tried 'em?

You can quote me all of the physiology you want, but I can tell you that every year when I start swinging the bells again, I get INTENSELY sore in all of the muscles I use on a bike and several that I don't. I slowly lose the soreness and increase the weights over the course of the winter and I'm real happy with the results. There are a few conventional presses you can do with 'em, but the swings are where a lot of the conditioning comes from. You can call Lance a lot of things (and I'm sure I have), but stupid he's not. He wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work.

I'm stickin' with 'em.

-Ray

This is where it's at Ray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkfHzAMHFQY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4z6ezLMx2U

The x factor is time. I can think and do a helluva a lot more productive things to do in the time one swings around a kettle-bell aka dumbbell. If you walked into a gym or saw someone swinging around a dumbbell, you'd say that person was wasting their time. Yet that same dumbbell has a handle welded to it and suddenly those same movements become super productive? On a scale of 1-10, I'd give kettlebells a 3. Yes it beats doing nothing, but the motion versus the action over time isn't something I'd buy. If it works for you, it works. Also, fwiw, "Every year when I start swinging the bells again, I get INTENSELY sore in all of the muscles..." same thing happens to me every Spring when I take out the golf clubs, when I jump back on the bike in the Spring, when I get in the pool during the winter; starting anything new generates soreness atmo.

[toaster]

If you're lifting like a bodybuider and you're a cyclist you better rethink your gym membership.

It's about power. Look at the Olympic lifter, that's power!

Kettlebells are worth checking out. Also, get an olympic bar and do some power cleans.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Dr. Leonard Schwartz came up with this over 25 yrs ago. He transformed his body. His HR dropped into the 30s with 5-6% BF. I bet he could kicked Pavel's arse, even w/o all that Spetsnaz training :D

[sc53]

I found a great deal on a set of kettlebells-four for $100 and free shipping-at Overstock.com. They arrived yesterday in one of those USPS Priority Mail flat rate boxes--which was busted to pieces and strapped back together with a note of apology from USPS. Kettlebells were undamaged. Guess that company is beating the USPS rate system for the time being, until they put a weight limit on those "flat rate" boxes. Question for Ray and the others who posted on this thread: where can I find a good video or book on a beginning routine for women? The kettlebells I got weigh 5, 8, 12, and 15 (I think) and they seem like a good range for me. But I haven't tried any exercises yet! I looked at that Dragon door place but the women's video seems too hard core. Any other suggestions?

[Climb01742]

I found a great deal on a set of kettlebells-four for $100 and free shipping-at Overstock.com. They arrived yesterday in one of those USPS Priority Mail flat rate boxes--which was busted to pieces and strapped back together with a note of apology from USPS. Kettlebells were undamaged. Guess that company is beating the USPS rate system for the time being, until they put a weight limit on those "flat rate" boxes. Question for Ray and the others who posted on this thread: where can I find a good video or book on a beginning routine for women? The kettlebells I got weigh 5, 8, 12, and 15 (I think) and they seem like a good range for me. But I haven't tried any exercises yet! I looked at that Dragon door place but the women's video seems too hard core. Any other suggestions?

i can't vouch for the quality for her advice, but here is a woman trainer at least:

http://www.socaltrainer.com/videos.html

[billrick]

I haven't worked with them (yet!), but we have two instructors with good reputations in our area: Darius Gilbert and Julie Coder.

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/instructor.pl?ipage=1273&rm=mode2

http://www.dragondoor.com/instructor/1305

They have a classroom on Rte 1. Hope this helps.

:)

[sc53]

Thanks Bill! I have gone to the Coder Center for PT before, after I broke my ankle and then again after I broke my arm. I'll check these places out.