Campy 1010A dropouts

[ericspin]

http://www.velostuf.com/velostufgalleryframebuildingmaterials.htm

(scroll down toward bottom of page)


In an email exchange the other day with Senor Kirk he responded to my question about how to build my new frame with the versatility to go fixed or derailleur. I thought I would have to go Eno or the unthinkable sliding dropout. He turned me on to the Campy dropout known as 1010A. I have done quite a bit of interweb researching and it looks like a great solution. Anyhoo, do any of you have a 1010A equipped bike that might be able to share info and or pics?

DK is the shizzle, huh?

Do you guys think I would be crazy to build the new Kirk with these dropouts?

This whole fixed setup is the most comfortable I have felt on the bike in a while. What's up with that?

Eric

[David Kirk]

Google image rocks.

dave


http://www.velostuf.com/campy1010ati.jpg

[maunahaole]

You won't find many folks here who would tell you that DK would steer you in the wrong direction on a matter such as this one.

[ericspin]

You won't find many folks here who would tell you that DK would steer you in the wrong direction on a matter such as this one.

No question about Dave's _steering_. I already have experience with him from the first frame he built for me. If he told me to do it I would do it. I am just curious to see if anyone is using them and what they think of them. I am trying to find some comfortability about committing to using them on the new frame that he will be building for me. I really trust the opinions here and the wealth of knowledge.

Eric

[11.4]

Totally trust Dave. There are only three builders I'd say that of.

Long Campy dropouts are a lot more practical than an Eno hub. Do be aware that with these dropouts, if you use fenders you'll need to figure out some extra clearance or limit your tire size -- vertical dropouts just fall directly out of fenders (and the frame for that matter) while horizontal dropouts may force your tire into the fenders while you're removing it, or you may literally have to allow extra chainstay length or find you need to deflate your tire to get it past the chainstay bridge. Dave will take care of this -- just be aware that it's a trade-off (not that any other set of dropouts doesn't have another trade-off to deal with).

Also, because of the length of the slot, you either will have the slot set relatively horizontal (in which case your rim won't always align with your brake blocks) or you'll have them at an angle that keeps the brake blocks in contact with the rim, but then you'll be raising the tire up into the frame and may have other small clearance problems. There just isn't a lot of room to fool with under modern brake calipers. All these problems go away, of course, if you go with Dave's original MRB design and use cantis.

[Ken Robb]

Also, because of the length of the slot, you either will have the slot set relatively horizontal (in which case your rim won't always align with your brake blocks) or you'll have them at an angle that keeps the brake blocks in contact with the rim, but then you'll be raising the tire up into the frame and may have other small clearance problems. There just isn't a lot of room to fool with under modern brake calipers. All these problems go away, of course, if you go with Dave's original MRB design and use cantis.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this brake commentrary. Besides cantis, which work great for me on 3 bikes, you could consider center-pull brakes or at least standard reach double pivots.

[RudAwkning]

Should work fine. Keep in mind that as you tension the chain, you'll change the angles of the bike >very< slightly, as the dropout is not completely horizontal. I don't even know if it would be that noticable. I'd imagine the difference would be like switching from a 700x23 tire on the front to a 700x20 or something to that affect. Mr Kirk would be the once to answer this question.

I was running my Mercian with 1010A dropouts as a single speed and never had the wheel slip once. If you plan on going with quick release skewers instead of bolt ons, remember to use the skewer with the "enclosed cam". See this link for the reasons why:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

[ericspin]

Should work fine. Keep in mind that as you tension the chain, you'll change the angles of the bike >very< slightly, as the dropout is not completely horizontal. I don't even know if it would be that noticable. I'd imagine the difference would be like switching from a 700x23 tire on the front to a 700x20 or something to that affect. Mr Kirk would be the once to answer this question.

I was running my Mercian with 1010A dropouts as a single speed and never had the wheel slip once. If you plan on going with quick release skewers instead of bolt ons, remember to use the skewer with the "enclosed cam". See this link for the reasons why:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

OK, this is the post I was looking for.......someone with personal experience. Did you ever use it with a derailleur? Wondering how tire changes work with that? I guess the _limiting screw_ (there must ba a more bikecific term)handles wheel position, huh?

Please understand ......I TRUST DAVE.

11.4, thnks for your insight as usual. Good point about fenders, however, living in Florida I never use them so that shouldn't be an issue. Now, about the canti's.....sigh. I have them on the Indy Fab and was really hopeful I could make this build work with a more customary _road appearance_ brake. Guess I better talk to DK about that.

You guys rock!!

Eric

[BUTCH RIDES]

hello it will work fine ..for a fixed gear take the rear brake off then you can put the wheel where it needs to go .
bye

[11.4]

OK, this is the post I was looking for.......someone with personal experience. Did you ever use it with a derailleur? Wondering how tire changes work with that? I guess the _limiting screw_ (there must ba a more bikecific term)handles wheel position, huh?

Please understand ......I TRUST DAVE.

11.4, thnks for your insight as usual. Good point about fenders, however, living in Florida I never use them so that shouldn't be an issue. Now, about the canti's.....sigh. I have them on the Indy Fab and was really hopeful I could make this build work with a more customary _road appearance_ brake. Guess I better talk to DK about that.

You guys rock!!

Eric

Not sure what you were originally asking for, then. These stay-ends have screw adjusters so you can set your multi-geared wheel in a consistent position vis a vis your derailleur and its B-screw. The screw adjusters are very useful on these stay-ends but have become rather hard to find so be sure you at least have an original set with the stay-ends.

The derailleur hangar is positioned such that you either have to get your chain length just right or you out-run the range of your B-screw -- unless you use the screw adjusters to position the hub appropriately.

I have two bikes with them and as pointed out above, unless you have the wheels at the front of the slots anyway, you move them far enough that you run out of clearance with fenders (and if you aren't careful, with tire width as well -- I have one bike that requires me to deflate a Vittoria Pave to get it out). If you're planning on using the full length of the slots with a fixed cog, you may run into these clearance issues as well.

The metal of these stay-ends isn't exactly hardened tool steel like many track dropouts, so if you are using regular Shimano or Campy track hubs with track nuts, the nuts can start to gall the metal a bit. Phil hubs don't have this problem, especially if you get the conical BMX nuts.

And I'd suggest you use a razor blade and shave the paint off the stay-ends if you are going to be using a fixed gear on the bike. A decently heavy paint coat can interfere with a fixed hub clamping down properly.

I like the versatility of the long slots but I did make sure I had the adjusting screws. On one bike that saw a fair amount of use with track nuts, I did get some very light galling -- not enough to create problems but I could see the galling getting worse and interfering with a quick release. You can always replace the stay-ends or even have them filed down and re-filled (track riders have to deal with this). These are all nits -- it's a versatile solution, certainly much better than the super-short Henry James horizontal dropouts. Nothing is perfect.

[RudAwkning]

OK, this is the post I was looking for.......someone with personal experience. Did you ever use it with a derailleur? Wondering how tire changes work with that? I guess the _limiting screw_ (there must ba a more bikecific term)handles wheel position, huh?


I'm running it with a derailleur now. I had it derailleurless/single for a while, then converted it back to a derailleur bike. I'm confused by your question in regards to tire changes. Do you mean did I run it single and keep the derailleur on?

You can use the limiting screw for wheel position. It'll act sort of like a Pual Dropout screw or MKS chain tensioner. This way you're guaranteed to have your wheel centered everytime

[ericspin]

Man, thanks a ton! My original request was for info such as yours and Rud Awkning's..........guys that were actually using them and therefore new the pros and cons of using such. I am trying to make up my mind about whether this is really what I want to do. Experience such as yours is what helps me.

[ericspin]

I'm running it with a derailleur now. I had it derailleurless/single for a while, then converted it back to a derailleur bike. I'm confused by your question in regards to tire changes. Do you mean did I run it single and keep the derailleur on?

You can use the limiting screw for wheel position. It'll act sort of like a Pual Dropout screw or MKS chain tensioner. This way you're guaranteed to have your wheel centered everytime

I was wondering how this type of dropout affected easy flat repairs on the road. You know, is it fairly simple or is it a PITA........compared to a standard vertical dropout.

Let me ask you this since I relate to your builds. If you were having DK build you a frame and you wanted the versatility of fixed or derailleur would _you_ use these dropouts. Yeah, this is great. I can blame it on you if I don't like it. Just kidding.

Again, I am a guy who hashes something over and over before I commit. Once I do commit I'm good but the process of getting there is exhaustive.

[ericspin]

I'm running it with a derailleur now.


Would you be willing to post a pic with the derailleur?

[J.Greene]

I was wondering how this type of dropout affected easy flat repairs on the road. You know, is it fairly simple or is it a PITA........compared to a standard vertical dropout.


There has been a billion or so bikes built with those drops. Tire changes are easy. It would not surprise me if more bikes have been built with horizontal dropouts than without.

JG

[RudAwkning]

I was wondering how this type of dropout affected easy flat repairs on the road. You know, is it fairly simple or is it a PITA........compared to a standard vertical dropout.

Let me ask you this since I relate to your builds. If you were having DK build you a frame and you wanted the versatility of fixed or derailleur would _you_ use these dropouts. Yeah, this is great. I can blame it on you if I don't like it. Just kidding.

Again, I am a guy who hashes something over and over before I commit. Once I do commit I'm good but the process of getting there is exhaustive.

Tire changes are way easier with this dropout than with a track dropout since the wheel slides forward, reducing chain tension. About the same difficulty as a vertical dropout.

Yes, I would definitely have Dave build me a frame using these dropouts if I wanted to flip flop from fixed to free. But, as 11.4 stated, beware of the "softness" of these dropouts. Don't go cranking your 15mm bolts down too hard or you'll get the galling that he spoke of. There are plent of hub options out there that can help circumvent this, like the Phil Wood spoken of earlier.

Maybe Dave can braze on some stainless reinforcements for you :D

[RudAwkning]

Would you be willing to post a pic with the derailleur?

With derailleur and set screws in use.

I say go for it. Mechanically it won't be an issue, and it will afford you the flexibility you want in this frameset. Plus oldschool Campy dropouts are cool. Of course that's coming from an oldschool college dropout so take my advice with a grain of salt :D

[alancw3]

having owned many vintage and classic bikes over the years i can say that the 1010a campy dropout is bulletproof. would i use on building a new bike-absolutely not! don't get me wrong i loved those dropouts on all those bikes, but in todays world i find that vertical dropouts are so much better. no adjustment to alaign and easy in/out when changing a flat on the road. imho! trust your frame builder's advise after accurately describing your intended purpose for the bike being built. one last thought, think resale down the line. good luck with your build!

[RudAwkning]

having owned many vintage and classic bikes over the years i can say that the 1010a campy dropout is bulletproof. would i use on building a new bike-absolutely not! don't get me wrong i loved those dropouts on all those bikes, but in todays world i find that vertical dropouts are so much better. no adjustment to alaign and easy in/out when changing a flat on the road. imho! trust your frame builder's advise after accurately describing your intended purpose for the bike being built. one last thought, think resale down the line. good luck with your build!

But then he'd have to go with some sort of eccentric hub or bottom bracket. Bigger compromise IMHO. I have a feeling, he'll be rolling on this thing fixed for 99.99999999% of the time anyway :D

[e-RICHIE]

Totally trust Dave.

+1 atmo -


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2076/2324083175_3f65b57507_o.jpg

[72gmc]

OP, I had long horizontals on an old race bike (not Campys but long, with the set screw) and they were fine. I seriously considered what you're considering for my current bike, but decided it was better to leave them as a ready excuse to get my next bike. The only issues I ever encountered were already pointed out--wheel placement with a derailleur, and chainstay bridge interference with wheel removal. I'm sure DK has the answer for both.

Go for it and post pictures!

[ericspin]

With derailleur and set screws in use.

I say go for it. Mechanically it won't be an issue, and it will afford you the flexibility you want in this frameset. Plus oldschool Campy dropouts are cool. Of course that's coming from an oldschool college dropout so take my advice with a grain of salt :D


Thanks!! Now that I have gathered this much info I am ready to start askin' Dave questions. RA, the thought of facing the dropouts with SS was on my mind. I know that is an option that he offers on standard dropouts.......now to see if it's possible with the Campy's. I can't thank you enough for all the info, opinions and picture. I will post updates as I move along with the project.

[ericspin]

RudAwkning, looks like we will be going with the stainless facing. Emailed DK this evening to discuss some of the details. Some good, some bad. The bad............................








































FOUR EFFIN MONTHS BEFORE HE STARTS................. AS CHARLIE BROWN USED TO SAY


















ARRRRRRRRRRRGH!

[dannyg1]

If you plan on going with quick release skewers instead of bolt ons, remember to use the skewer with the "enclosed cam". See this link for the reasons why:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Thanks for that informative link. I had no idea that there was anything to even interest me in the difference. The disk brake article/warning is also an incredibly interesting read:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/index.html

Danny