Sachs vs Spectrum

[Ozz]

A buddy of mine is in the market for a new bike...no real hurry (hence the inclusion of e-richie on his short list). He has asked me to pose this topic on the forum for discussion.

It is obvious that both Sachs and Kellogg in the upper echelon of builders, but how would you all compare the process? Since there will be essentially "cross-continent" communication, who of you has done this, and how well does it work with each builder?

The plan is to have an in-person visit and fitting eventually, but it is important to know who can get it right with just one visit?

Since Sachs builds what he thinks a race bike should be, how does this differ from Spectrum?

Are there detectable differences in build quality? How does Spectrum paint compare to Joe Bell?

Lastly, aside from delivery timeline, why would someone choose one builder over the other? Just so you know he is comparing apples to apples, he is looking at the steel bike at Spectrum, not Ti.

You comments are appreciated!

BTW - Rider profile is:
early/mid 40's, 6'4", 170lbs
Primarily a recreational rider now, did some racing in college
Currently rides a steel Eddy Mercks ("Century" I believe (1995??))
Typical ride is 40+ miles, mixed hills and flats

Disclaimer - I have tried to talk him into a Serotta, but he wants a steel fork, and, well, I already have one.... :cool:

[Smiley]

For my cash if wait was not an issue I'd pick Ritchie because I think he's excentric enough for me. I for the life of me could not tell the differences between two quality builders whom if I could express what I wanted and THEY GOT IT then how could they be that different to me and how would I know if I did not order two of the same bikes . I ain't Noah

[Ozz]

I guess the easier question to answer would be why would you choose one of these builders over the other??

[vaxn8r]

You've got arguably the two most well known people in the business. Pinnacle of the profession. It's not like you can go wrong. I suppose I'd speak to each one and go by that.

OTOH, what's wrong with the Merxk? You can always have Joe Bell repaint it and update components. It'll be just like a new bike.

[keno]

based upon the following reasoning.

If you start with the assumption that both Kellogg and Sachs do excellent work, you expect that you will receive an excellent product that suits your needs with either. Once having chosen, and that being the one and only steel bike you will get, how will you ever know what you missed by not chosing the other? It comes down, then, to what I believe is called "marginal utility", which in this case might be to say even assuming that the Sachs product is slightly better, and how you would conclude that is a whole other personal thing, is it worth 30 or so more months more to wait for the product and while not enjoying the use of the alternative one? Moreover, what if you lose interest in biking a year or two from now? Are you better off having had the experience of the steel bike or not having spent the money? What if, for altogether unforseen reasons, Sachs decides to close shop and return deposits? (e-Richie, I know you might be less than sanguine about me already, but it's the thought process I went through, and your backlog attests to a large number of bikers having a far different thought process.)

Most all of us live as if we are going to live forever. I've reached the age at which it is no longer realistic to harbor that illusion. As George Burns used to say, "At my age I don't buy green bananas."

Ozz, I realize that I haven't answered your friend's question. I believe that it is not answerable, other than by a sample of riders who own current vintage steel bikes made by each of Kellogg and Sachs. Owning one or the other proves nothing. Those luck Pierres are the ones your friend needs to consult. And even their answers may be suspect. I will be surprised if anyone can come up with some distinguishing characteristic of the frames or process which leads to a sound conclusion. BTW, Tom does very fine paint work and is known by some for it. The pains he took with my bike, which was a frame of the month on his website a while back, were substantial and done at a very reasonable price. If your friend wants to get in touch with me, he can at keno@blast.net.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

Keno polemicized:
"...What if, for altogether unforseen reasons, Sachs decides to close shop and return deposits?"





i am younger than tk.
:D O:D O:D O:D O:D O:D O:D O:D O:D O:D

[shinomaster]

what if the ice age came back and the roads froze, and we couldn't ride bikes anymore??

Hey E-Richey are you coming to Stump Town for any cross races this year?

[OldDog]

Ozz,

I have a ti Spectrum and a Sachs, steel of course. My Spectrum was purchased in 1995, Sachs in 2002.

While lusting for a new steel bike in 2001 I kicked around various builders, narrowing it down to Serotta, Spectrum or Sachs. I eliminated Serotta as I had no local dealer and, was not really comfy with the idea of getting fitted by a bike shop. I wanted a custom bike, fitted by the builder.

Over the years I've had a chance to visit many times with Tom Kellogg and Jeff Duser at the barn, an hour away. Tom fits and designs, Jeff mans the torch and file, Tom then paints. Their creations are wonderful, as are they. Tom listens to you and will create a design you will be happy with and Jeffs skill and workmanship is equal to or better than anyone else in the business.

I visited Ritchie at his shop in Chester, CT, a beautiful area, geniune New England. He is a gentlemen's gentlemen. He tolorated me and my wife for three hours, chatting about everything cycling, showing me his shop, talking metalwork (I am a machinist/engineer by trade), showing me his collection of Campy goodies. Though the rumor is you get what he builds, i.e. he fits you to his design, Ritchie is flexible and will entertain your special needs. If your desires are not silly he will consider making what you want.

I settled on the Sachs. Not because I thought it would ride better or look better. Both are outstanding bicycles, and "works of art". To me, the Sachs had the aura of something much more elusive, old worldish. Spectrums are common around here, my Sachs, and one other in the next county, a 15 year old vintage, are the only ones I know of in this part of the woods.

Either builder will "get it right" with just one visit, we are talking the best of the best here. Though I had only one visit with Ritchie, we had communication from the time of deposit to delivery. Tom is very much the same. As far as paint, I think Tom Kellogg is every bit an artist as JB, maybe more so as Tom will get exotic with special themes. I need to post a picture of my wifes orange ti Custom with yellow, purple and white flames. Nice.

I'm sorry I cannot give you an apples to apples, steel frame ride report. My Sachs is a great bike and I enjoy every ride on it. You can't go wrong with either brand. I guess we ride what stirs our soul.

[robg]

I follow the board regularly and contribute rarely, but want to weigh in on this topic. Keno is right that your ideal respondent would have gone through the process with both Tom and Richie to present a point of comparison. Until that person comes along, I can offer my experience with Richie.

1- Know that with Richie you are buying into his concept of a bicycle. As he says on his website, his frames are made to measure. He fits his concept to your dimensions. Don't go to him if you want sloping top tubes, oversized chainstays, etc.

2- Richie will hit your sizing with one visit or no visits. It's what he does and is not even worth a thought.

3- Joe Bell's paint job is exquisite.

4- Owning a Sachs you will be stopped on group rides by comments like "that's a beautiful bike," "I want one," "Wow."

5- Richie is there to work with you during and after the process. He talks with you on the phone, answers e-mail and cares for you.

6- I ride for pleasure, mostly distance, no racing. The ride is exquisite and a source of joy that enhances the bicycling experience. If you haven't figured it out, I am a huge fan.

Is it worth waiting 30+ months? I don't know. Are there any possible regrets purchasing a Sachs? No way.

Discounting the wait, I think the best advice is to talk to both Tom and Richie to see which one you'll be happier working with and whose approach seems to fit your style of riding. Knowing of Tom only by reputation, I can't imagine you will go wrong either way.

robg

[keno]

Hardly, just part of my thought process (not to mention the fact that the subject of the thread itself is somewhat in the nature of a polemic). I've had 5 careers now and assume that others make changes in their lives or have changes made to them exogenously.

BTW, e-R, you're the first to literally give me reason to add "Polemicizer" to my curriculum vitae.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

Shinomaster-issimo axed:
"Hey E-Richey are you coming to Stump Town for any cross races this year?"



we'll (http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachscybc.html) be at
the natz in portland trying for our 10th natz jersey since 1997...
e-RICHIE

ps

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:D :D :D
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

arrange disorder

[flydhest]

Keno,

I thought you were Russian.

[va rider]

Keno = polemicizer

In other words, Keno is a practitioner of polemy, an ancient Egyption ritual where a male must first victoriously use verbal skills in an argument with a female before mating.

But, he is really argufy.....

[bostondrunk]

Does he know for sure that he wants steel? Or is he looking at ti as well? If ti, your decision is made. If steel, then flip a coin? :beer: :beer:

[keno]

no mating.

keno

[dirtdigger88]

what if the ice age came back and the roads froze, and we couldn't ride bikes anymore??

Hey E-Richey are you coming to Stump Town for any cross races this year?

If the ice age comes I will have a trusty Kirk MRB ready for the task, those babies are soooo cooool

Jason

[Ozz]

...OTOH, what's wrong with the Merxk? You can always have Joe Bell repaint it and update components. It'll be just like a new bike.

lol :banana:

Like many folks here, there is nothing wrong with his Merckx, except that it is 10 years old! He actually updated the components this past year...

He just has the itch for a new bike, and if it itches, you gotta scratch!

OT - Funny story on the Merckx, he got it as an insurance settlement after his wife ran his old Colnago (the one he raced in college) into the carport of the new house they were moving into... :eek:

[BillyBear]

It's very easy, just get both... the significant other (if applicable) might not be thrilled...but a Spectrum in the near term and a Sachs in a few seasons sounds pretty good to me. :hello:

[Jeff N.]

If you want Ti, Spectrum. As stated above, its a toss-up if you want steel. But I'd lean toward Sachs. As for paint-and let me make this clear- nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is better than JB. Period. Case closed. All else comes in second. His work is consistently PERFECT! But you must see to truly appreciate. Jeff N.

[keno]

you had me worried. I thought "argufy" was an acronym ending in the classical "fy", but I looked it up. Whew! Once again, peace reigns in the kingdom. IABDITN.

keno

[OldDog]

We're a two Spectrum - one Sachs family, with two more painted Spectrums down the street. Tom's paint work rates right there with JB. Maybe not better, but not a notch below either. Don't rate Tom on ti paintjobs as no ti paint job will look as good as a two tone lugged steel frameset. Tom can cut the lines as good as anyone.

Now the the case is closed :D

[bags27]

So who's the greater artist, Michaelangelo or Leonardo? Ditto with Tom and Richie. They do ever so slightly different things, and maybe that's how someone decides what to buy. But how can someone objectively say that one is better?

[Needs Help]

Spectrum seems to do all right with ti too:

http://www.bikefanclub.com/images/DSC01225t.jpg

[shinomaster]

no need to rub it in our faces!!!!

[slowgoing]

Well, you guys convinced me and I'll be adding my name to "the list."

[Kevin]

Needs Help,

Is that your Spectrum? It is a great looking bike. It reminds me of the Kahuna's Spectrum.

Kevin

[SPOKE]

i'm fortunate enuf to own a 25th Anniversary Spectrum. Tom does a wonderful job of determining the fit you require. he's first class all the way. his paint work is as good as i've seen on any bike to date. you won't have to worry about a thing if you choose a spectrum. Tom's partner Jeff probably has as much or more frame building experience as anyone on the planet when it comes to custom work.

i'm also foutunate to have a new Sachs almost ready for delivery!! can't wait!
Richard also takes great care in his fitting process. both he and Tom are equals in my book.....just different. i'll find out in about a month if the Joe Bell paint meets my expectations.

just remember that "better" in this case is strictly your opinion.