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swoop
03-07-2008, 01:37 PM
in my life and thinking about turntables....
what's a good not too expensive turntable.. new or used? i'm short on funds for the slow economy so i just want basic bang for the buck.. and simple.

i'm decades out of the loop...

avalonracing
03-07-2008, 01:40 PM
Check used stuff although pretty much everyone who was going to get rid of the turntables for a CD player did that already... ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO!

Don't forget a good cartridge for the turntable they make all the difference.

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 01:41 PM
i'm decades out of the loop...

that's the best part, nothing has changed.

Definitely go used. I'd say a Rega Planar 3 with the RB300 arm,
and get a new cartridge. Paging DavidS.... Paging DavidS....

-g

Pete Serotta
03-07-2008, 01:44 PM
I have an old Bang and Oulsen (B&O) that works well......it was cheap but then I have tin ears.....

Check Craig's List or the local high end stereo shops for used (trade in).

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 01:46 PM
forgot the link:

http://www.audiogon.com/

-g

znfdl
03-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but what is the best way to get my vinyl records into my ipod?

swoop
03-07-2008, 01:55 PM
oh.. they have a usb turntable.. i think you can get it at amazon... but i also think it involves compressed files.. i was searching this stuff out about cassettes the other week...

znfdl
03-07-2008, 02:08 PM
oh.. they have a usb turntable.. i think you can get it at amazon... but i also think it involves compressed files.. i was searching this stuff out about cassettes the other week...

I saw the USB tirntable, I jusy wondered if there is a better solution, sound quality wise.

mcteague
03-07-2008, 02:12 PM
Vinyl??? Just invest in some good speakers. If you must buy ancient technology, Rega gives you the most bang for the buck. Of course you realize that the "warmth" you hear from vinyl is really just distortion from dragging a needle along the grooves. I so don't miss the cleaning ritual, flipping the disk halfway through a symphony, bass rolled of so as to not have the cartridge jump out of the groove. When CDs came out I jumped with both feet and never looked back. Of course, great speakers such as my Linkwitz Orions make even harsh CDs listenable, unlike my previous Thiels.

Tim McTeague

Kevan
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
getting a couple people involved investing in that usb table. So many folk have vinyl simply standing on end with no place to go. The table I've seen advertised was 2 bills, I think.

Me personally, I don't think I'll ever go back.

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Vinyl??? Just invest in some good speakers. If you must buy ancient technology, Rega gives you the most bang for the buck. Of course you realize that the "warmth" you hear from vinyl is really just distortion from dragging a needle along the grooves. I so don't miss the cleaning ritual, flipping the disk halfway through a symphony, bass rolled of so as to not have the cartridge jump out of the groove. When CDs came out I jumped with both feet and never looked back. Of course, great speakers such as my Linkwitz Orions make even harsh CDs listenable, unlike my previous Thiels.

Tim McTeague

hey, no politics on the phorum ! :)


-g

Bernie
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
yeah there is a better way sound quality wise but it seems like a lot of work. I researched it and it appears you will need the correct turntable, some recording software, some editing software, your computer with the right audio card, and a whole lot of time. There are several sites that have instructions and sell the stuff you need if you google it. If I remember, you need to play the record while recording it on your computer w/the recording software. Then you need to edit the recording and store it as a single file. You need to do this with every track, or you could just have one very large file for the whole side. I gave up on the idea until I come across a cheap usb turntable.

thwart
03-07-2008, 02:15 PM
If you run it through your preamp (for RIAA equalization) you can then run it into your computer with a program like Toast (for Macs). Well... and the right cable (for mic input).

Works well, IMHO.

The best cheap but good turntable... Rega Planar 3. Atmo.

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 02:16 PM
I saw the USB tirntable, I jusy wondered if there is a better solution, sound quality wise.

I use a product called "iMic"
Just plug an RCA adapter cable from your turntable, (or pre-amp)
and it has a USB on the other end.

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic

There are lots of software options out there,
but i just use the little program that came with the hardware.

-g

davids
03-07-2008, 02:16 PM
that's the best part, nothing has changed.

Definitely go used. I'd say a Rega Planar 3 with the RB300 arm,
and get a new cartridge. Paging DavidS.... Paging DavidS....

-gYep. That's what I would have said. Except the "Paging DavidS" part.

The Rega P3/RB301 is just under $900.

http://www.tsto.com/isroot/TSTO/SiteImages/2721.jpg

If that's too much, the P2/RB250 is $545.

http://www.tsto.com/isroot/TSTO/SiteImages/2681.jpg

And a Grado cartridge. The Black is $80.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/GradoBGmd.jpg

A good turntable is a revelation, atmo. A mediocre turntable is a horror show, as much a waste of money as a WalMart bicycle.

I'm not as up on the market as I used to be, but feel free to bounce any ideas/deals off me via PM. I'm here to help. :D

pdxmech13
03-07-2008, 02:20 PM
pig plus on the rega too.

davids
03-07-2008, 02:23 PM
Vinyl??? Just invest in some good speakers. If you must buy ancient technology, Rega gives you the most bang for the buck. Of course you realize that the "warmth" you hear from vinyl is really just distortion from dragging a needle along the grooves. I so don't miss the cleaning ritual, flipping the disk halfway through a symphony, bass rolled of so as to not have the cartridge jump out of the groove. When CDs came out I jumped with both feet and never looked back. Of course, great speakers such as my Linkwitz Orions make even harsh CDs listenable, unlike my previous Thiels.

Tim McTeague...and don't go dissing Theils!

...I've probably told this story before, but one of my last audio upgrades was replacing my "new" AR turntable with a VPI Jr.

I bought it mail-order, and therefore without my usual obsessive a-b comparison testing. I was feeling a little sheepish over how much I'd spent, and honestly wondering if my vanity got the better of my good sense.

I got it set up, dropped the needle, and wandered into the next room before the record even started playing. When the music began, I was gobsmacked. Even from the next room, the improvement was dramatic - solid bass, clearer, sharper delineation of the instrumental lines, better rhythmic drive and substance. Holy sheit, atmo.

Like I said, a good turntable is a revelation. And I figure my VPI saved me about $13k in replacement CDs...

znfdl
03-07-2008, 02:40 PM
I use a product called "iMic"
Just plug an RCA adapter cable from your turntable, (or pre-amp)
and it has a USB on the other end.

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic

There are lots of software options out there,
but i just use the little program that came with the hardware.

-g

Looks like a good device to hook up to my Thorens Turntable

swoop
03-07-2008, 02:43 PM
you know what got me on this...
http://www.acehotel.com/portland/

they've got a room with turntables. i'm stayin there for the speevagen hug and measure and.. it just seemed cool. i miss that warm sound that i can't find in my cd's....

gt6267a
03-07-2008, 02:47 PM
you know what got me on this...
http://www.acehotel.com/portland/

they've got a room with turntables. i'm stayin there for the speevagen hug and measure and.. it just seemed cool. i miss that warm sound that i can't find in my cd's....

can't you just get a tube pre-amp to add the **right** distortion and call it a day? maybe try a conrad johnson pre-amp before you get all crazy old school.

swoop
03-07-2008, 02:50 PM
its an aesthetic experience yo.

:P

(plus..at this point.. i'm just thinking in print.)

gt6267a
03-07-2008, 02:56 PM
cool ... for aesthetics and the sound i might still give a tube a shot ... notice i am not looking to start THE war ... amongst the audio set the tube v solid state argument is like campy v shimano on a tour winning cocktail. we don't need to go there.

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 02:58 PM
you know what got me on this...
http://www.acehotel.com/portland/

they've got a room with turntables. i'm stayin there for the speevagen hug and measure and.. it just seemed cool. i miss that warm sound that i can't find in my cd's....

looks like a cool place.

do they have a room key swap?

-g

chrisroph
03-07-2008, 02:59 PM
vinyl is a superior tachnology to the redbook CD, which will be obsolete long before vinyl.

The rega planars are excellent bang for the buck. I have a p3/RB300 as my second unit. My first table is a VPI superscoutmaster.

I also recommend a used VPI. They are well built, upgradeable, fine sounding units.

Look at audiogon. it is a great resource.

swoop
03-07-2008, 02:59 PM
it's a small space... i've got a little nad amp and some old yamaha ns10's.. so its limited to start with... but such is apartment life.

davids
03-07-2008, 03:00 PM
can't you just get a tube pre-amp to add the **right** distortion and call it a day? maybe try a conrad johnson pre-amp before you get all crazy old school.Crazy?

If you've got a decent-sized record collection, it's not only aesthetically righteous, it makes economic sense.

And the analog/vinyl sound isn't the same as the tube sound, anyways.

big shanty
03-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Turntables are like blank audio cassettes. Go to somewhere like Best Buy (yuck) and all options have been removed, for your benefit. They'll typically have one ~$99 SONY or ONKYO or similar turntable model that will get the job done.

gt6267a
03-07-2008, 03:05 PM
.

davids
03-07-2008, 03:10 PM
it's a small space... i've got a little nad amp and some old yamaha ns10's.. so its limited to start with... but such is apartment life.nad is the nads. As far as speakers, I don't know the Yamahas, but I still deeply miss my old Spica TC-50s. The best small speaker I've ever heard (although they need to be set up away from walls, on stands.) They show up on eBay regularly for around $300.

http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1204674185.jpg

gt6267a
03-07-2008, 03:12 PM
Crazy?

If you've got a decent-sized record collection, it's not only aesthetically righteous, it makes economic sense.

And the analog/vinyl sound isn't the same as the tube sound, anyways.

i was thinking more about someone starting to invest in vinyl now ... though i am sure some might make an argument for that ... not talking about someone with a huge vinyl collection. and, i am sure the sound is different and i will defer to your knowledge of that. i enjoy some audio toys but know there are many levels of interst beyond mine in that arena.

davids
03-07-2008, 03:23 PM
i was thinking more about someone starting to invest in vinyl now ... though i am sure some might make an argument for that ... not talking about someone with a huge vinyl collection. and, i am sure the sound is different and i will defer to your knowledge of that. i enjoy some audio toys but know there are many levels of interst beyond mine in that arena.It's an awful lot like cycling in that respect! When I was a young know-it-all, I thought everyone should care as much about it as I did. I'm slightly wiser now...

If a person's happy with his toys, I'm happy for him! :beer:

Grant McLean
03-07-2008, 03:41 PM
i was thinking more about someone starting to invest in vinyl now ...

lots of classic albums can be found on vinyl for $3-5
at least here anyway. and that's cdn$... will cost you guys more :)

-g

Larry D
03-07-2008, 03:46 PM
My wife got me an Audio Technia unit that is working quite well. The Cakewalk sofwre that comes with it is not Vista compatible however if that is a concern. It also has a swithable pre-amp mode so I can record directly to my computer or output to an amp and play it through the stereo. I think the unit runs around 150.

mister
03-07-2008, 03:53 PM
lots of awesome old vinyl can be found for cheap. that right there is a good reason to have a turntable.

i got some nice speakers, i'm using an old denon dra 635 integrated amp that was passed onto me*, i had a crappy cd player and it made my speakers sound thin, brittle and harsh. that cd player died. i picked up an NAD cd player off ebay for around $60...holycrap what a difference...i really couldn't believe it...all the sudden i realized why everyone was talking about them speakers.
now i need to get the turntable sorted out so i can listen to some of the vinyl that i don't have on cd.

*i'm still waiting for the polk sda-1's (awesome speakers (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/207723234_f55164119c_b.jpg)) to be passed to me :D

dgauthier
03-07-2008, 03:55 PM
+1 on the Rega 'tables. You can't go wrong, new or used.

shinomaster
03-07-2008, 03:59 PM
Sorry Swoop. :)

dannyg1
03-07-2008, 04:14 PM
in my life and thinking about turntables....
what's a good not too expensive turntable.. new or used? i'm short on funds for the slow economy so i just want basic bang for the buck.. and simple.

i'm decades out of the loop...


I'd say that the best deal is going to be an old, used Empire table/arm and mount a low line Dynavector MC cart on it (or a high line Grado if you must have an MM). Figure around $600-750 for everything after you have the table's mechanics cleaned, aligned and checked.

Another choice: http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-124-ESL-TONEARM-AT-CARTRIDGE-NICE_W0QQitemZ150221860432QQihZ005QQcategoryZ48649 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

On second thought, best not to buy a turntable on Ebay because the sellers won't know how to pack it for shipping. Buy it on Audiogon for the piece of mind.

Danny

97CSI
03-07-2008, 04:35 PM
Ah....my other hobby. Even worse than bicycles. I just counted and have 43 pieces of stereo gear. Six of them are turntables. If you are looking for something decent, I'd skip the Rega. I've owned the Rega 3/RB300 and the Rega 25/RB900 and didn't care that much for either. My basis for dislike is the wimpy belt-drive. If you want BD, get a VPI. The VPI Scout is considered one of the best entry-level units. Am also not a fan of Grado cartridges, having owned a few, up through the Sonata. If I was to start again I would take the Audiogon.com route someone recommended earlier. TTs depreciate rapidly. Get one of the Japanese direct-drive TTs like a Denon DP-47, 52, 62 or Sony like a PS-X70 or PS-65. They are quiet, reliable and semi-automatic. A great place to start. For cartridges, Amazon has been selling the Shure M-97xE for $60, and it is a great deal. Going up, the Denon DL-110 is the best deal in cartridges, IMHO, at ~$110. Wonderful sound. From there, the sky is the limit. You can spend $10K on a cartridge, just like you can on a bicycle. You also need a decent phono-preamp. If you can tell us what you have it would be easier to make more specific recommendations. I use a Threshold FET-10pc that has been recapped with Black Gates. And am currently listening to a Denon 303 LOMC that has been retipped by Soundsmith with a boron cantilever. It is running in a Yamaha PX-2 DD TT with a linear tracking TA. Have a limited edition AT33R LOMC (Japan, only) waiting to be installed. But, don't forget that cleanliness is next godliness with vinyl. To that end you'll want some decent cleaning supplies. I use the VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine with MoFi brushes. When I retire I will upgrade to the VPI 17, which more automated and quieter. Can't beat vinyl. Not as convenient as digital, but sounds better. Great fun and a gentle madness. Here is my listening area at the moment. You can see four TTs if you look closely. Go for it!

swoop
03-07-2008, 04:38 PM
Sorry Swoop. :)

ah.. thats awesome!

shinomaster
03-07-2008, 04:39 PM
ah.. thats awesome!

Those are ***-less Capo penguin chaps.

DarkStar
03-07-2008, 04:50 PM
that's the best part, nothing has changed.

Definitely go used. I'd say a Rega Planar 3 with the RB300 arm,
and get a new cartridge. Paging DavidS.... Paging DavidS....

-g
Yep!

thwart
03-07-2008, 04:50 PM
If you are looking for something decent, I'd skip the Rega.


TTs depreciate rapidly

I hear ya... but for someone interested in a "starter" TT you can't go wrong.

And I quickly looked at Audiogon. Rega P3's are the alloy Chorus 10 Ergos of the audio world, apparently: Sold, Sold, Sold... safe to say you'll do OK if you don't like it.

97CSI
03-07-2008, 05:06 PM
I hear ya... but for someone interested in a "starter" TT you can't go wrong.

And I quickly looked at Audiogon. Rega P3's are the alloy Chorus 10 Ergos of the audio world, apparently: Sold, Sold, Sold... safe to say you'll do OK if you don't like it.If they are so great why are so many for sale? Folks buy them and then quickly realize that they want something better. They are good quality. But they have very small motors, inaccurate speed and are non-adjustable. The TA is great. The TT is not. Many better alternatives from Clearaudio, Sota, Pro-ject, Music Hall and, especially VPI. Personally, I prefer DD. So like the TTs from Japan. They did it right and only now is DD making a comeback. Japan makes stereo gear we never hear of or see in NA. A good source for info on vintage Japanese gear is http://www.thevintageknob.org/. Here is an example.

Peter P.
03-07-2008, 05:17 PM
A recent issue of the popular consumer audio/video magazine, Sound and Vision, had an issue featuring the resurgence of turntables. They reviewed turntables at three price points, one of which might be reasonable for you:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/av/2387/platter-matters-three-turntables.html

All you need is to hook the turntable up to your stereo. You can run a cable from your HEADSET jack on your receiver to the MIC input on your computer, which is stereo. I made my cable, but you can easily use a standard 1/4" stereo cable with adapters to 1/8". You WILL not overdrive the mic input on the computer because you will adjust the level roughly using the volume control on your stereo, which drives your headset jack. Then, use a program like Roxio Toast to fine tune the recording level and other settings.

As another poster mentioned, you will record the ENTIRE LP. Then, you go back and, with the software, mark the individual tracks. Toast also has some features to clean up the sound such as pop/click removers and equalization.

When done, you burn the file to a disc.

That's what I do. I have a 25 year old, Technics turntable with linear tracking arm and a Grado cartridge. Works fine.

97CSI
03-07-2008, 05:23 PM
Well.......some of us like 'music' and some of us like 'sound'. If you are going to all that trouble to make mediocre sound, why not just buy the CD and be done with it? Sort of like the difference between a Sachs/Bedford/Kirk/Kellogg, etc. bike and a Giant or a Fuji. Capiche?

mcteague
03-07-2008, 05:56 PM
hey, no politics on the phorum ! :)


-g
No, audio is more of a religion thing. But then, I'm an atheist, so I tend to laugh at those who put tripods under their cables and metal pucks on speakers. Double blind tests rule.

Tim McTeague

dannyg1
03-07-2008, 10:23 PM
No, audio is more of a religion thing. But then, I'm an atheist, so I tend to laugh at those who put tripods under their cables and metal pucks on speakers. Double blind tests rule.

Tim McTeague

Please allow me to convert you then Tim. :)

The intention of a well done sound reproduction system, should be to reproduce as exactly as possible, what is recorded to source media (the LP, CD, SACD, tape, etc.), and present that recorded image, as a projected image, defined in space at the stage.

If the performance is well recorded, an illusion of the actual performance should be dispayed before you. The goal of the component and speaker designers, is typically to refine ths image and get millisteps closer to a perfect reproduction of what the microphone heard and present that to the listener always.

This ever sought perfect reproduction of reality is called 'the absolute sound'.

There's no getting around physical laws though and reproduction of music is done by connecting a chain of products together, which then function as a system, taking from source at one end, and moving air to create sound at the other.

All sorts of weirdism happens at each passage, from component to component and that's where the little pucks and cable lifts come into play.

Lifting the cables off the floor is a sensible idea because most systems rest on carpet, which tends to collect static and that'll show up/transfer to signal, as an EM interference in interconnects and speaker cable.

This creates noisy b'grounds (hence reviewers overuse of the term 'inky black', when describing a tuned systems background noise presentation, or more precisely, its reproduction of silence) and also tends to create electric shocks for you at the component side of things, which can run big pops through the system, blowing up your speaker drivers and stressing crossover components needlessly.

Those 'pucks' you're speaking of are isolation components and they act something like fire-breaks do in the forest.. A typical example of the problems these fix: a low bass feedback runs from your woofers, through the floor and into your turntable, back to the arm and cart. You'll notice that most turntables are 'sprung', yes? To help stop this from happening, is why.

The stylus vibrates very lightly as it rids the grooves and the carts magnets convert that energy to only a very tiny electric voltage. This must be amplified greatly by the phono amp, to reach a voltage that can be passed on to the linestage, then on to the main power amps. The gain introduced at each stage must be carefully chained within limits, so that each component passes it's signal on without dropping to silence the whispers or distorting the screams. When tiny signals are greatly amplified within close proximity to the much amplified reproduction, it becomes impossible to keep that amplified and reproduced signal from re-vibrating that stylus as well. It then gets amplified once again, then again and it's not music when that happens.

If you consider the world through a tiny eye, the size of the tip of a stylus orthe lens of a CD player, and then imagine the thunderous shock a light shift of a humans weight might be (like a small earthquake and the level shift of a 12 foot wave in human scale, I'd bet), it's not hard to imagine what a good 4 seconds of 20hz reproduced at 110db/1m might be like. Music reproduction requires a level of resolution that's akin to what's required of small format photography and just a bit of vibration will ruin the resolution of everything.

The world vibrates. Sound systems convert and then amplify vibrations, rooms then accentuate vibrations in peaks at sympathetic frequencies (Rooms also bounce waves round, causing cancellations of sound called 'nodes').
This vibration tends to 'collect' and reverberate through room-connected structures, causing sympathetic vibrations to be excited within them all (Ella's carefully chose note shattering the wine glasses across the room). The predominant frequency resonates and 'rings' out, up and down the harmonic scale. This unintended noise becomes part of the reproduced sound,

If left uncontrolled, as it is then ampified by the system, it grows and grows until it 'runs away' and overcomes the system. The sound you'll hear at this point is familiarly called 'feedback' (have a look at the attached photo, which gives an idea of how different frequencies, when excited, paint a visual photo)



Isolating all structures with 'devices' like those pucks, creates a divide, making each component less likely to vibrate in sympathy to one another and therefore, less likely to add its own noise to the reproduced signal. The vibration though, never goes completely away, it just gets more 'isolated', hence better 'controlled'.

And yes, all components introduce vibration, some obviously (like a subwoofer) and some less so, like an amplifier (which might typically introduce a small touch of AC hum and then add some high frequency vibration outside the range of our hearing)

.This unintenionaly added noise dulls the speakers presention by introducing and adding another, nonsensical one within the mix (ever strain to hear your own conversation when another is happening near?).

Room and system intesified sounds tend to 'move', at those excited freq's, the apparant image that the system 'projects' sonically, typically spoken of as the 'soundstage' and to 'smear' over sonic micro-details, hiding them and confusing your ear (again like the crowded room conversation). All of this comes across to the listener, but isn't perceived so obviously. It forces a more intense concentration and leaves the listener less likely to enjoy listening to the music being played. It also becomes farther from the absolute and instantly discernable as unreal.

Isolating the components (and making them heavier) then, it follows, becomes easier to understand as the problem solver that it is. All the while mercilessly looked upon by most otherwise sensible folks as a touch of pure lunacy; just like $5000 bikes are!! :rolleyes:

As my boss might say: 'Science, at the Pearson corporation'

Danny

dannyg1
03-07-2008, 10:37 PM
When I say " 'move' the soundstage", I was less than clear. Consider a man playing a guitar and singing, stereo mic'ed to be reproduced standing exactly in the center of your speakers.

At excited frequencies, his voice, typically not singing across octaves as the guitar typically is, will seem to move closer to you momentarily, gain in volume, and separate from the guitar, which might be left 'back there' so to speak.


Does that make better sense?

Danny

Ken Robb
03-07-2008, 11:56 PM
and the set-up of a good turntable is very important. They aren't really plug-and-play.

Simon Q
03-08-2008, 01:04 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1200

IMHO one of the industrial design masterpieces of all time (well, as far as I would know!). A legend.

Digital or electronic music sounds way better on big systems with vinyl as analogue smooths out the sharp edges of the digital sounds. You can definitely tell the difference between the two. Reproduction of analogue sounds is more accurate on digital formats.

However, either way there is that something special about placing a needle on vinyl...

davids
03-08-2008, 06:53 AM
If they are so great why are so many for sale? Folks buy them and then quickly realize that they want something better.I think there's a lot for sale because a lot got sold new. There are simply more of them than of (even) more esoteric brands.

I think Swoop's asking about a reasonably priced TT, not about the first step into audiophile obsession (I've been there.) The Rega fits that bill. That Pro-Ject Debut III looks interesting, too. I'm too far out of the loop to know for sure.

BTW, your system makes me look like a complete piker. But here it is:

VPI Jr. turntable with VPI Power Line Conditioner, Rega 300 tonearm and Grado Signature 8MZ cartridge
cheapo Samsung DVD player and Enlightened Audio Design DSP-7000
Adcom GFT-555 tuner
Audible Illusions Modulus 2b preamp
Forte 1a power amp w/ VPI Brick
Musical Fidelity X-CANS headphone amp and Sennheiser HD-600 headphones
Thiel CS-1.2 speakers

...the speakers and CD collection are on the other side of the room! :)

mcteague
03-08-2008, 07:04 AM
Please allow me to convert you then Tim. :)


Danny
Don't believe it. Cables lying on the floor and static electricty affecting the audible signal. Nonsense. This is why I love properly done ABX tests. It removes biases. Funny how when you can't see what is playing a Rotel amp sounds just like an Audio Research. With audio, speakers, rooms and recordings are where it's at. Cables and electronics, if well made and not pushed beyond their limits, will sound the same. So many tests have been done and the lines have been drawn. So, it gets back to religion. Some will believe without evidence and some require proof.

I used to get the upgrade but every few years but only really shopped for speakers. After getting the Linkwitz Orions and a Tact RCS 2.0 room control preamp I just don't get the urge any longer. What a relief; my music sounds closer to real than I have heard from any other system. And that is what it is all about in the end.

Tim McTeague

mcteague
03-08-2008, 07:15 AM
[QUOTE=davids]...and don't go dissing Theils!

QUOTE]


I'm not bad mouthing Thiels. I have owned Thiel CS2, CS2.2 and CS2.3s. I had the new 2.4s in my room for a few days. Over the years Thiels have always been the best I have heard in my price range. Still, too many CDs were a bit bright. Some of this is the recording to be sure. Every time I auditioned a speaker with a warmer sound I missed the Thiel detail. I just figured CD was to blame and lived with it. Then, I heard the Linkwitz Orion. They are the product of Sigfried Linkwitz' lifetime in audio. He of the Linkwitz-Riley crossover fame. In the end I had to invest in a Tact RCS 2.0 room control preamp as the Orion's bass excited too many problems in my room that physical treatment did not control.

Tim McTeague

97CSI
03-08-2008, 07:46 AM
I think Swoop's asking about a reasonably priced TT, not about the first step into audiophile obsession (I've been there.) The Rega fits that bill. That Pro-Ject Debut III looks interesting, too. I'm too far out of the loop to know for sure.

VPI Jr. turntable with VPI Power Line Conditioner, Rega 300 tonearm and Grado Signature 8MZ cartridge
Your VPI HW19 Jr. is an excellent place to start. It is fine TT that is still supported by VPI. One reason that it is an excellent place to start is that it can be upgraded all the way to a the Mk IV model with Aires platter, bearing, and SAMA motor and control, should you decide that is the route you wish to go. Upgrades that turn it into about as good a supspended TT as is available. I used one with an SME 309 TA and Ortofon Kontrapunkt b for several years and still rue the day I sold it :crap: . Sort of like when I sold that Colnago Mexico with full SR group or the '65 356SC sunroof coupe. The things we do in life.

VPI Jr. TTs come up fairly often on Audigon. A new belt and a couple of drops of oil and should last another lifetime. They generally do not have as nice an arm as the RB300, but the AT-6 or AT-9 they are generally listed with is a nice, budget arm.

If anyone is looking to upgrade, I can recommend some excellent options on the used market. For instance, the Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD/SACD/CD 2-channel player, which uses the V24 chipset (still considered one of the best ever made) can be had for ~$300. Can't touch the sonics and especially the quality of build today for under $2K. And you don't even have to double-blind test it.

Enjoy the music! :banana: :banana: :banana:

davids
03-08-2008, 08:14 AM
I'm not bad mouthing Thiels. I have owned Thiel CS2, CS2.2 and CS2.3s. I had the new 2.4s in my room for a few days. Over the years Thiels have always been the best I have heard in my price range. Still, too many CDs were a bit bright. Some of this is the recording to be sure. Every time I auditioned a speaker with a warmer sound I missed the Thiel detail. I just figured CD was to blame and lived with it. Then, I heard the Linkwitz Orion. They are the product of Sigfried Linkwitz' lifetime in audio. He of the Linkwitz-Riley crossover fame. In the end I had to invest in a Tact RCS 2.0 room control preamp as the Orion's bass excited too many problems in my room that physical treatment did not control.

Tim McTeagueReminds me of when I bought my Thiels. I had narrowed the choices down to the CS1.2s and the Vandersteen 2Ds. I liked the 2Ds so much more in the showroom, but they were hopelessly bass-heavy in my room. They sounded like complete cr@p, honestly. The CS1.2s, on the other hand, helped me reach the contented place I'm sitting in now (with Steve Earle at the moment, if it matters!)

As far as the a-b thing, I firmly believe (based on my experience) that all electronics sound different. Different CD transports, playing through my outboard D-A converter, sound different to me. Different speaker cables too. I was a complete skeptic once upon a time, but I believe my ears.

But that doesn't mean everything affects the sound - That VPI brick sits on top of my amp as an inside joke between me and my wife. That thing has no effect on the sound anywhere in my system. I keep it as a reminder of my potential for folly.

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 09:38 AM
I'm in self imposed exile of audio gear. Apart from the new woofers I had to buy a few months ago to replace the voice coils I had fried in the previous set, I haven't bought a new piece in about 6 years and have no plans to.

Used to work in a hi-fi shop in Berkeley. This is the system I scraped together during and after my years there. It started out with some Rotel, Parasound and Paradigm gear. Then just got ugly. Thank G0d I've found a cheaper hobby in bikes :crap:

And like David, I have the VPI bricks around for kicks. They were a birthday gift from the shop. They sit, dormantly, atop my amplifiers.

swoop
03-08-2008, 09:43 AM
jeeeezus. i gotta start a thread on boobs to see what gets posted. i'm in way over my head with you freaks.

e-RICHIE
03-08-2008, 09:46 AM
jeeeezus. i gotta start a thread on boobs to see what gets posted. i'm in way over my head with you freaks.
www.boobsandfreaks.com atmo.

97CSI
03-08-2008, 09:49 AM
RudAwkng - Very nice. Whch Apogee speakers are those? You've forced me to post a pic of my BAT/McIntosh tube set-up with the Krell speakers. I listen in the near-field and prefer monitors for doing so.

Which legs are those on the TT? The SME 309 is a wonderful TA. Of every piece of gear I've owned and sold that is probably the one I miss the most. It was simply a perfect match to the Kontrapunkt b I wore out using it. Will eventually get Soundsmith to retip it.

Now where did I put those boob pic's?

julia
03-08-2008, 09:56 AM
i once bought a record player for $10 on a yard sale way the heck out in maple valley somewhere (i just kept following the signs...and following the signs...)

i asked the guy, does this thing work

he said, yep all's it needs is a stylist!

it's been a stylist ever since.

Grant McLean
03-08-2008, 10:23 AM
jeeeezus. i gotta start a thread on boobs to see what gets posted. i'm in way over my head with you freaks.

no way....

just get yourself down to the local Naim Audio dealer,
and get some good stuff. That way your female visitors
won't think you're having a garage sale in your living room

-g

swoop
03-08-2008, 10:41 AM
eames leg splint and faux pollock optional?
its funny.. on some level these all look like some ritualistic alter where a sacrifice is going to be offered... or is it just me?
where are the back robes and hoods...

97CSI
03-08-2008, 10:46 AM
he said, yep all's it needs is a stylist! it's been a stylist ever since........bikes or audio, we are all just 'stylin' here.

julia
03-08-2008, 10:57 AM
.......bikes or audio, we are all just 'stylin' here.


http://www.instructables.com/id/Bike-Stereo/

LesMiner
03-08-2008, 11:00 AM
Oh you guys got all the high end audio stuff! This thread began with Swoop's question about a desire play vinyl again

in my life and thinking about turntables....
what's a good not too expensive turntable.. new or used? i'm short on funds for the slow economy so i just want basic bang for the buck.. and simple.

i'm decades out of the loop...

I had been into audio as well. For a time I designed and built speaker enclosures. I produced 100 pairs or more over a period of 15 years. I'd like to think I got good at it.

One day in some audio publication I read a piece by Keith Yeats. He owned and operated a high audio shop. He believed the audiophile customer's goal was to reproduce the live event as faithfully as possible. He worked hard at marketing his store and products by holding live events of small musician ensembles in his store. He thought his business would flourish but it did not. Other high end dealers had scoffed at him about believing high end audio customers had any real interest in hearing a live music event. His business did not flourish as a matter of fact he went out of business. He learned that the other dealers were right. The bigger and more exspensive the system an audiophile has the more likely that audiophile will focus on hearing the little nuances from his system rather than if it reproduces the live event. He is more likely to seek out so called expert opinion on what piece of equipment reproduces sound so much better that others. I just love the line " so and so can hear sound level changes as little as 1dB!" So by golly I will buy what he says is good! I could go on with even more anecdotes. I have seen graduate EE's get taken in by this audiophile hype as if they became a part of some cult.

I will make you an offer Swoop. I have a serviceable turntable. I have the original box with everything you need to use it. I bought new near the beginning of CD's taking over the marketplace. PM me your shipping address and I will ship it to you free of charge and I will pay the shipping. I do not use at all now and if you really have a desire to hear that music you have on vinyl again then my turntable will not go to waste

Grant McLean
03-08-2008, 11:09 AM
its funny.. on some level these all look like some ritualistic alter where a sacrifice is going to be offered... or is it just me?


that's right, the sacrifice comes right outta yer wallet.
it's worse than bikes. the hardcore audio guys never
get outside... it's snowing here...

-g

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 11:57 AM
Don't believe it. Cables lying on the floor and static electricty affecting the audible signal. Nonsense. This is why I love properly done ABX tests. It removes biases. Funny how when you can't see what is playing a Rotel amp sounds just like an Audio Research. With audio, speakers, rooms and recordings are where it's at. Cables and electronics, if well made and not pushed beyond their limits, will sound the same. So many tests have been done and the lines have been drawn. So, it gets back to religion. Some will believe without evidence and some require proof.

I used to get the upgrade but every few years but only really shopped for speakers. After getting the Linkwitz Orions and a Tact RCS 2.0 room control preamp I just don't get the urge any longer. What a relief; my music sounds closer to real than I have heard from any other system. And that is what it is all about in the end.

Tim McTeague

I'm sorry that you found what I'd written less than convincing. I worked hard writing it!
The proof you're looking for is available for you anytime. Find an anti-static 'gun', like this:

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/photo/zerostat.shtml

Walk up to your speakers with the system on, and set at unity gain (If your linestage doesn't have a unity mark on the volume control, set it to a level, with music playing, where you consider it most likely 'right' where it was recorded (Probably a bit louder than nomal listening level for most people). Turn the music off, but leave the output un-muted.

Listen closely, (with your ear very near the driver) to your tweeters output with nothing playing. What you'll hear is a low level 'hash' sound, typically called 'line noise'.

Now take the anti-static gun and point it close to your floor run cables. Click it a few times. If you can't hear an effect, within the amplified signal, then your experiment will have proven you correct in your assumption that static has no effect. If you can, well, then I'm right.

De-staticize the length of your cables and then walk up to your tweeters and listen again at unity gain. If you do it well (it's not easy working with a handheld 'gun' for this), you'll definitely hear a marked reduction in 'hash' sound, once again proving that static adds noise to what's being reproduced.

To this, which you wrote, I say:

>>This is why I love properly done ABX tests. It removes biases.<<

Tu quoque Sir! (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Tu_quoque)

And a double blind cable test recenty done, where two *experienced* listeners could *easily* pick the contestants (Critical listening is best tested on people who listen critically. Lay people make lousy double blind testers because they'll have no foundation to draw from and their preference will more likely be biased towards finding 'no difference'. They're confused by any variables they do hear and have little idea what makes a system sound more, or less, coherent in the first place. Tending to focus and rely upon personal preferences, aka 'bias', rather than the comparitive task at hand.
Kind of like testing Boone's farm against Lafite Rothschild; The BF will test better, make that great, via random people chosen from the local McD's, as opposed to the absolute trouncing it would most assuredly receive from Parker).

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120044692027492991.html



Regards,
Danny

stevep
03-08-2008, 12:00 PM
ok,
what do you do with old vinyl records?
i got a lot and i have no interest in getting back into a turntable./
any ideas?
s

YO!!!
03-08-2008, 12:43 PM
Find a record store that buys 'em. They usually give cash or in store credit;
which is preferable if they also sell cds and other goods that might be of interest.

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 12:46 PM
Reminds me of when I bought my Thiels. I had narrowed the choices down to the CS1.2s and the Vandersteen 2Ds. I liked the 2Ds so much more in the showroom, but they were hopelessly bass-heavy in my room. They sounded like complete cr@p, honestly. The CS1.2s, on the other hand, helped me reach the contented place I'm sitting in now (with Steve Earle at the moment, if it matters!)

As far as the a-b thing, I firmly believe (based on my experience) that all electronics sound different. Different CD transports, playing through my outboard D-A converter, sound different to me. Different speaker cables too. I was a complete skeptic once upon a time, but I believe my ears.

But that doesn't mean everything affects the sound - That VPI brick sits on top of my amp as an inside joke between me and my wife. That thing has no effect on the sound anywhere in my system. I keep it as a reminder of my potential for folly.

Turn your system volume way up until you can clearly hear line noise when you're physically at the amplifier position. Take the VPI bricks off whatever you have them on and put them on the floor next to you.
Grab one and place it on the top of your amp. Slowly move it around. You'll find a spot where high frequency hash gets a touch quieter (and if you listen closely, underneath the louder hash, there's a lower frequency resonance that the transformer emits that'll 'focus' at a certain placement of the brick as well).
Once you find the spot, leave that one and, if a stereo amp, place the other brick on the amps top in the opposite, identical position. If you open the amps top, after doing this test, you'll find that you've placed the brick directly over the output transformers and by-the-by, this test works repeatably well for everyone who takes the time to listen well while performing it.

Those bricks are pretty great and they're also pretty rare.

Danny

YO!!!
03-08-2008, 12:52 PM
Same major improvement derived from ceramic bearings???

swoop
03-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Oh you guys got all the high end audio stuff! This thread began with Swoop's question about a desire play vinyl again



I had been into audio as well. For a time I designed and built speaker enclosures. I produced 100 pairs or more over a period of 15 years. I'd like to think I got good at it.

One day in some audio publication I read a piece by Keith Yeats. He owned and operated a high audio shop. He believed the audiophile customer's goal was to reproduce the live event as faithfully as possible. He worked hard at marketing his store and products by holding live events of small musician ensembles in his store. He thought his business would flourish but it did not. Other high end dealers had scoffed at him about believing high end audio customers had any real interest in hearing a live music event. His business did not flourish as a matter of fact he went out of business. He learned that the other dealers were right. The bigger and more exspensive the system an audiophile has the more likely that audiophile will focus on hearing the little nuances from his system rather than if it reproduces the live event. He is more likely to seek out so called expert opinion on what piece of equipment reproduces sound so much better that others. I just love the line " so and so can hear sound level changes as little as 1dB!" So by golly I will buy what he says is good! I could go on with even more anecdotes. I have seen graduate EE's get taken in by this audiophile hype as if they became a part of some cult.

I will make you an offer Swoop. I have a serviceable turntable. I have the original box with everything you need to use it. I bought new near the beginning of CD's taking over the marketplace. PM me your shipping address and I will ship it to you free of charge and I will pay the shipping. I do not use at all now and if you really have a desire to hear that music you have on vinyl again then my turntable will not go to waste


that's a mighty kind offer.. but you have to let me at least cover shipping..

swoop
03-08-2008, 01:24 PM
ok,
what do you do with old vinyl records?
i got a lot and i have no interest in getting back into a turntable./
any ideas?
s

what you got... i lost most of my collection...

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 01:27 PM
Same major improvement derived from ceramic bearings???

Tuning a system is just that, regardless of whatever functional purpose the system serves. There are tweaks that you do that have a minor, but cumulative effect (that get major) and tweaks that make major changes instantly. I like to analogize the sound stuff with weight-weenie tuning of bikes, because there is, it seems to me, a point where tuning the system becomes more of the focus, and listening less. That point is a cliff as far as I'm concerned.

The exercise is only about recreating reality faithfully, so long as it is in service to the enjoyment of the musical performance.

Like the 5 pound carbon bike that'll kill you if you sneeze near it, a sound system should be more than just cool looking, and a tuned nightmare.

A friend of mine is the editor of a UK audio magazine and he goes on about how he has an assistant that changes the VTA on his player from track to track. Bragging rights to him I guess. That kind of dedication, though admirable, seems to me a disservice to enjoying the musical performance.

Danny

39cross
03-08-2008, 01:34 PM
snippet...He is more likely to seek out so called expert opinion on what piece of equipment reproduces sound so much better that others. I just love the line " so and so can hear sound level changes as little as 1dB!" So by golly I will buy what he says is good! I could go on with even more anecdotes. I have seen graduate EE's get taken in by this audiophile hype as if they became a part of some cult.
So it sounds like you're saying there is a Fred analog in the audio world? (BTW, I admire your kind gesture).

Stevep, you can dump your old records in hardlyrob's yard, he may not notice.

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 01:36 PM
and the set-up of a good turntable is very important. They aren't really plug-and-play.

100% agree. It's amazing what a smidgen of adjustment does to a system component that is so monstrously amplified.

Danny

stevep
03-08-2008, 01:39 PM
what you got... i lost most of my collection...

im gonna make a list up soon enough.
s

mcteague
03-08-2008, 02:58 PM
I'm sorry that you found what I'd written less than convincing. I worked hard writing it!
The proof you're looking for is available for you anytime. Find an anti-static 'gun', like this:

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/photo/zerostat.shtml

Walk up to your speakers with the system on, and set at unity gain (If your linestage doesn't have a unity mark on the volume control, set it to a level, with music playing, where you consider it most likely 'right' where it was recorded (Probably a bit louder than nomal listening level for most people). Turn the music off, but leave the output un-muted.

Listen closely, (with your ear very near the driver) to your tweeters output with nothing playing. What you'll hear is a low level 'hash' sound, typically called 'line noise'.

Now take the anti-static gun and point it close to your floor run cables. Click it a few times. If you can't hear an effect, within the amplified signal, then your experiment will have proven you correct in your assumption that static has no effect. If you can, well, then I'm right.

De-staticize the length of your cables and then walk up to your tweeters and listen again at unity gain. If you do it well (it's not easy working with a handheld 'gun' for this), you'll definitely hear a marked reduction in 'hash' sound, once again proving that static adds noise to what's being reproduced.

To this, which you wrote, I say:

>>This is why I love properly done ABX tests. It removes biases.<<

Tu quoque Sir! (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Tu_quoque)

And a double blind cable test recenty done, where two *experienced* listeners could *easily* pick the contestants (Critical listening is best tested on people who listen critically. Lay people make lousy double blind testers because they'll have no foundation to draw from and their preference will more likely be biased towards finding 'no difference'. They're confused by any variables they do hear and have little idea what makes a system sound more, or less, coherent in the first place. Tending to focus and rely upon personal preferences, aka 'bias', rather than the comparitive task at hand.
Kind of like testing Boone's farm against Lafite Rothschild; The BF will test better, make that great, via random people chosen from the local McD's, as opposed to the absolute trouncing it would most assuredly receive from Parker).

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120044692027492991.html



Regards,
Danny

But can you hear it make a difference on MUSIC? Setup a double blind test and see if you can do better than the flip of a coin with someone pointing the anti static gun somewhere else. I appreciate the time it took you to write that response but I have heard it all before. At some point I just turn it off. Until people start proving these off the wall scenarios really affect what we hear with music I will continue to turn a deaf ear. It's not that I don't have an open mind but have traveled this road before and came out embracing real science, not the pseudo kind.

Experienced listeners tie themselves up in knots trying to explain why they cannot hear differences in ABX tests, or just refuse to take part in them. Sure they are a pain to setup and do correctly but they are the best method of making sure we aren't "hearing things". Just as with God, I don't need to disprove it, as you can't prove a negative. It is up to believers to prove what they say is true. Generally both sides just agree to disagree. Or they kill the other side... but that is more a religion thing than audio.

Tim McTeague

davids
03-08-2008, 03:24 PM
Turn your system volume way up ...

Those bricks are pretty great and they're also pretty rare.

DannyThanks for the advice. But my audiophile addiction's in remission, and I like it that way. Like the Eels sang (regarding some more serious mental problems), "... a careful man tries to dodge the bullets/While a happy man takes a walk"...

davids
03-08-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm in self imposed exile of audio gear. Apart from the new woofers I had to buy a few months ago to replace the voice coils I had fried in the previous set, I haven't bought a new piece in about 6 years and have no plans to.

Used to work in a hi-fi shop in Berkeley. This is the system I scraped together during and after my years there. It started out with some Rotel, Parasound and Paradigm gear. Then just got ugly. Thank G0d I've found a cheaper hobby in bikes :crap:

And like David, I have the VPI bricks around for kicks. They were a birthday gift from the shop. They sit, dormantly, atop my amplifiers.Wow. I hope it sounds as good as it looks.

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 04:12 PM
Ti,

Nuance is a funny thing. If your can reproduce extremely subtle details, can your auditory faculties resolve them? It's a resounding yes for me, but I'm lucky in that I have years of experience working with audio systems far more intense and expensive than most anyone will ever get to hear, even once.

It is very hard to impart to the inexperienced what is actually proven possible, unless one can provide the experience to the skeptical other, first and as well. Since I'm not coming over to your house with a reference quality system in tow anytime soon, I can only answer your question and explain to you how proof is there to be heard, if you perform the steps I've written.

The constant saw that I hear in the audio industry, perpetuated mostly by the audio critics themselves, is how we're only 80% or so, through the very best componentry available, towards the goal of the absolute. To which I say 'horses**t!!'!

Given a large enough room, a ridiculous budget, no lights and a fixed listening position, I can set up a double blind test where I can place a single vocalist mic'd on a stage, record him or her to high bit rate DSD, and then play it back through the same 'incredo' system and the listener will be extraordinarily hard pressed to tell me which performance was the real vs which was the recorded.

Then comes the question: 'What cues will be most telling'? And the answer is that only a truly experienced and very critical listener, will be functionally able to discern the difference. Sometimes, a sound system produces a 'euphonic' reproduction that would lead the majority of unsuspecting listeners to actually prefer its presentation to the real thing. That would lead to a full scale tilt in a true double blind test (at least amongst people picked at random) toward the choice of the fake over the real! So which then, is the better?

Put a full orchestra on that same stage and the real will become readily obvious, over the recorded. Why's that? Because complexity is hard to reproduce accurately. The sounds layer over each in air and still stay distinctly separate, whereas the system, busily reproducing the dominant tone will not be able to precisely resolve the nuanced one (at least not perfectly). That's where my answer to your question >>]But can you hear it make a difference on MUSIC?<< comes in: Yes I can!

It could be done, reproducing this orchestra, to a greater degree of perfection, by mic'ing each part of the orchestra and running each channel pair through its own, individual, stereo system, speakers carefully placed as part of a gargantuan array. But then phase cancellations would happen all over the stage as one performers mic picked up another performers sound. Lobing and time alignment problems would be harder (or impossible) to overcome as the speaker array grew in physical size. None of it is simply done and it's in that 'complex' reproduction that the 80% figure comes to be true, I suppose..

That said and explained, everything I've proposed as true has a supporting test proposed as a proof to go along with it. If your system is good enough, and then, tuned well enough, to resolve extremely fine details reliably up and down the frequency spectrum, you will absolutely be able to hear the difference extraneous, unintended sound makes within the system even if the crap sound seems to only exist at the noise floor.

You'll find that recording studios are noise proofed and usually made as sound dead as possible. That's because reflected sound comes back to the microphone out of time with the real, obscuring micro details within the recording. If it's important on the creation side, it's just as important on the repro side. Speaker cabinets are made to be inert as possble and are shaped so that back reflections from the drivers, which create an out of time sync resonance, are kept out of the sound the speakers emit (as best as possible). Same thing.

Cd playback is clock controlled and time domain errors (and frame rate step up/down resolution) , typically called 'jitter', are worked on tirelessly by the product designers, because, though the difference is incredibly small, you can hear it upon playback (If the system can resolve it...).

On the issue of real science, it's only as good as what you're measuring and scientists have to come up with the correct phenomena to measure and then invent proper measurement systems for it. This stuff is just as affected by imperfect input/output as any other system is. 'Proof' then, is also (at least mostly), never absolute .

Danny


But can you hear it make a difference on MUSIC? Setup a double blind test and see if you can do better than the flip of a coin with someone pointing the anti static gun somewhere else. I appreciate the time it took you to write that response but I have heard it all before. At some point I just turn it off. Until people start proving these off the wall scenarios really affect what we hear with music I will continue to turn a deaf ear. It's not that I don't have an open mind but have traveled this road before and came out embracing real science, not the pseudo kind.

Experienced listeners tie themselves up in knots trying to explain why they cannot hear differences in ABX tests, or just refuse to take part in them. Sure they are a pain to setup and do correctly but they are the best method of making sure we aren't "hearing things". Just as with God, I don't need to disprove it, as you can't prove a negative. It is up to believers to prove what they say is true. Generally both sides just agree to disagree. Or they kill the other side... but that is more a religion thing than audio.

Tim McTeague

97CSI
03-08-2008, 04:22 PM
If anyone wants to discuss audio ad infinitum/naseum you should join the www.audiokarma.org and DIY forums. Used to be quite active, but burned out with all the 'knowledge' over there. Even though I can only listen with my ears. :rolleyes:

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 04:33 PM
If anyone wants to discuss audio ad infinitum/naseum you should join the www.audiokarma.org and DIY forums. Used to be quite active, but burned out with all the 'knowledge' over there. Even though I can only listen with my ears. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry to have bored you, but I take exception to the inference above. I do sound system equipment set-up professionally and speak from true experience. I also ride a bicycle around 64 miles total to/from work pretty often, proving that audio professionals don't universally sit around all day long, as was previously suggested.

Danny

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 04:55 PM
RudAwkng - Very nice. Whch Apogee speakers are those? You've forced me to post a pic of my BAT/McIntosh tube set-up with the Krell speakers. I listen in the near-field and prefer monitors for doing so.

Which legs are those on the TT? The SME 309 is a wonderful TA. Of every piece of gear I've owned and sold that is probably the one I miss the most. It was simply a perfect match to the Kontrapunkt b I wore out using it. Will eventually get Soundsmith to retip it.

Now where did I put those boob pic's?

Apogee Studio Grands. I ditched the stock active crossover in favor of a Krell KBX and completely rebuilt the passive crossovers using Van Den Hul monocrystal silver plated copper speaker cable as bus bars and stupidly expensive Goertz inductors, Hovland capacitors, Vishay resistors, etc for the innards. I have the 4 crossovers "floating" on their own spikes inside of the subwoofer cabinet. It was a fun project, got to hone my soldering skills, and was able to bypass the high frequency tweeter toggle switch that >I'm SURE< was affecting my higher registers :)

That "TNT" turntable was actually entirely homemade. Not by me. A friend of a friend built it up using two acrylic layers sandwiching an aluminum layer. The feet/pods are spring suspended as opposed to the stock rubber damping of the VPI. Cool Mahogany caps too boot. The real trick thing about this table, unlike the original, is that the tonearm mounts directly to the plinth. It was drilled specifically for the SME tonearm. Motor was custom built too. The only stock VPI TNT parts are the platter and bearing. Currently using a Transfiguration Spirit moving coil cartridge and a Benz Micro PP1 phono preamp to round out the phono section.

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 04:59 PM
Wow. I hope it sounds as good as it looks.

Well, I may not have "reference" quality recordings, but Swervedriver never sounded so sweet :)

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 05:04 PM
Swoop,

Keep in mind the "weakest link" theory. Don't spend a crazy amount on a table if you don't have to. What does your system currently consist of?

swoop
03-08-2008, 05:23 PM
yeah.... i live in a small space .. so i have a small space set-up. all nad pieces with just some yamaha studio speakers... so, by design i have to keep it simple.

i'd love to be an audiophile but i can only afford one obsession (2 if you include modernist furniture) at a time. this economy is killing the shrink biz and this is just for fun....
you guys are all way too big league pimp...

LesMiner
03-08-2008, 06:00 PM
So it sounds like you're saying there is a Fred analog in the audio world? (BTW, I admire your kind gesture).

Yes I guess I am. There is a point in sound reproduction where the perceived differences is really more of a form of fashion than technology. In another analogy, its like how many people can tell the difference in coffee that is said to taste richly fruity versus only fruity? Many high audio salesman take advantage of people looking to buy the best sound they can by saying to the customer "can't you hear the improved difference?" It gets better in front of the spouse with the same phrase "can't you hear the difference honey? but the salesman can and he said. . ."

Fixed
03-08-2008, 06:51 PM
I'm in self imposed exile of audio gear. Apart from the new woofers I had to buy a few months ago to replace the voice coils I had fried in the previous set, I haven't bought a new piece in about 6 years and have no plans to.

Used to work in a hi-fi shop in Berkeley. This is the system I scraped together during and after my years there. It started out with some Rotel, Parasound and Paradigm gear. Then just got ugly. Thank G0d I've found a cheaper hobby in bikes :crap:

And like David, I have the VPI bricks around for kicks. They were a birthday gift from the shop. They sit, dormantly, atop my amplifiers.
bro what a crash pad cool
cheers imho

97CSI
03-08-2008, 07:27 PM
I'm sorry to have bored you, but I take exception to the inference above. I do sound system equipment set-up professionally and speak from true experience. I also ride a bicycle around 64 miles total to/from work pretty often, proving that audio professionals don't universally sit around all day long, as was previously suggested.

DannySorry, but you 'inferred' the wrong thing. For the most part, I'm on your side. Am forever tweaking and playing for that nuance of which you speak. And think double-blind tests are for the blind. Me.......I use my ears. Take care.

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 08:19 PM
Sorry, but you 'inferred' the wrong thing. For the most part, I'm on your side. Am forever tweaking and playing for that nuance of which you speak. And think double-blind tests are for the blind. Me.......I use my ears. Take care.

I thought double blind tests were for the deaf. Even a deaf person can hear the differences between solid core and stranded cable :D

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 08:21 PM
bro what a crash pad cool
cheers imho

It's best after a loooooong ride. Get home, hit play, proceed to melt into your chair :D

RudAwkning
03-08-2008, 08:25 PM
yeah.... i live in a small space .. so i have a small space set-up. all nad pieces with just some yamaha studio speakers... so, by design i have to keep it simple.

i'd love to be an audiophile but i can only afford one obsession (2 if you include modernist furniture) at a time. this economy is killing the shrink biz and this is just for fun....
you guys are all way too big league pimp...

You'd be fine with any Rega, Sumiko, etc. mid/entry level table. Does your Preamp/Integrated Amp have a phono input section? Is it Moving Coil AND Moving Magnet capable? Keep this in mind when shopping for a table with a cartridge already installed or you may end up having to buy another cartridge. Good luck with the hunt. Nothing sounds as creamy as vinyl :)

Fixed
03-08-2008, 08:29 PM
bro and lp covers are art too imho
cheers
rude are a bro with great taste imho :beer:

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 08:35 PM
Sorry, but you 'inferred' the wrong thing. For the most part, I'm on your side. Am forever tweaking and playing for that nuance of which you speak. And think double-blind tests are for the blind. Me.......I use my ears. Take care.

My apologies. I say that whilst taking my foot out of my keyboard - addled mouth. Have to admit that I was puzzled to be taken to task (at least apparently) by someone who obviously listens. Sorry again for misinterpreting what you'd meant.

Danny

rounder
03-08-2008, 10:43 PM
I don't think it's about nuance. I watched a mick jagger movie along time ago (performance??). Anyway, he made a comment that was something like...the only kind of performance that really makes it, is one that achieves total madness. To me, when you are listening to music, it is more about what is playing and that it's loud enough...than whether you are stomping your feet when you are walking around (which would send unwelcome vibrations through the component interfaces)...whether the cables are touching the floor...listening carefully enough, etc.

dannyg1
03-08-2008, 11:49 PM
I don't think it's about nuance. I watched a mick jagger movie along time ago (performance??). Anyway, he made a comment that was something like...the only kind of performance that really makes it, is one that achieves total madness. To me, when you are listening to music, it is more about what is playing and that it's loud enough...than whether you are stomping your feet when you are walking around (which would send unwelcome vibrations through the component interfaces)...whether the cables are touching the floor...listening carefully enough, etc.

I can relate to what you mean by the above but it is a bit hard to truly listen while stomping your feet and/or otherwise multitasking. Listening is an experience of concentration for me and contemplation as well, and that includes when I'm performing it. No matter the intensity I'm caught up in and no matter how loudly I'm singing, I'm always fully aware of where my voice is going next and considering how I'm going to move my voice to there.

Danny