OT- New Dog Owner Fence Question, please.

[Sandy]

As many here know I recently adopted a dog from the local rescue shelter. He is a neutered male American Pit Bull Terrier of about 2 1/4 years. He is a lean, well muscled example of his breed. Recently I had installed a wood fence which is 5 feet high dipping down to 4.5 feet in spots. King, my dog, loves to go out in the yard, partially becuse of his prey drive- when he sees squirrels and other little critters.

I took King for 3 training sessions thus far. The trainer says that I should not allow King to be in the back yard by himself but that I should be there to monitor his activities so that he does not develop bad habits that he might apply out of the yard (and in the yard). A friend of mine thinks that is silly. Another friend, who owns several dogs, including a pit bull and who knows King exceptionally well, said that she would never allow him out in the yard by himself as someone might want to steal him as he is an appealing pit ( and train him to be a fighting dog), or someone might want to harm him because he is a pit.

He could probably scale the fence if he wants and could dig under the fence (has done none of that so far), but I really don't fear that too much.

Question, as I am a new dog owner, do I just let him go out unattended as he is a dog or should I monitor him per the reasons given above??

I would appreciate any GENUINE- input. Thanks!!


Sandy

[CarbonCycles]

Sandy good for you, and as a dog owner, I agree with the advice on monitoring your dog when they are out. Having 2 labs, and on those rare instances where I have left them unattended, they have managed to get into more mischief than I could imagine. Besides, it's a nice way to spend some time outdoors with your pooch especially if the weather is nice.

[thejen12]

I would probably not let him out unattended for the first couple of months, and see how he behaves. Then let him go unattended for a few minutes at a time, gradually increasing the length if you continue not to see any evidence of problems. (You can watch out the window at first....) If you work up to leaving him unattended for a more extended length of time, I'd try to "sneak" back to catch a glimpse of what he's doing when he knows you're not around (probably sleeping!).

Four and a half feet does sound pretty short for a fence, though. That would make me uncomfortable. You never know what might "inspire" him to go over it. I would not want my pitbull running around loose. I'd rather pay for a new 6 foot fence if I were going to take on the responsibility of a large-ish dog.

Good luck,

Jenn

[Sandy]

A few days ago, I let King go out in the yard before I was really ready. I had to put on my shoes, coat,...When I got there he was pushing around, with his face/head, one of those long black cylindrical tubes used in moving water out of an area in a yard/roof. I could see that he had already started to chew on it at one end. Undoubtedly some little critter, probably a chipmunk, had been in the tubing.

People know that if they see King, they will see me. He always has his collar on with id tags (when out of the house) and his harness, which I use when walking him. He will probably almost never be out of the house without me. It is my responsibility, especially as a pit owner, to be sure that he is well behaved and always under my control. So far, he has been received very well by people in the neighborhood. Many pit owners are exceptionally responsible. A great many more should never have a pit or prrobabl any dog.


Sandy

[coylifut]

I lean towards monitoring him when he's in the back yard. let him out to do his business, but don't leave him out there. If you do, he'll start possesing it by patrolling the fence line and other dominant habits. Once he does it outside, he'll start doing the same inside by patrolling the front windows. He needs to know that's your job. By default, he doesn't want to be a pack leader, but will take on the roll if you don't establish yourself.

[Sandy]

I would probably not let him out unattended for the first couple of months, and see how he behaves. Then let him go unattended for a few minutes at a time, gradually increasing the length if you continue not to see any evidence of problems. (You can watch out the window at first....) If you work up to leaving him unattended for a more extended length of time, I'd try to "sneak" back to catch a glimpse of what he's doing when he knows you're not around (probably sleeping!).

Four and a half feet does sound pretty short for a fence, though. That would make me uncomfortable. You never know what might "inspire" him to go over it. I would not want my pitbull running around loose. I'd rather pay for a new 6 foot fence if I were going to take on the responsibility of a large-ish dog.

Good luck,

Jenn

You make an excellent point. I wanted a 6 foot fence but my wife really did not want one. The fence is 5 feet with a repeating curve that hits a minimum point of 4.5 feet just once in each cycle. We built it with the 3 horizontal runners on the inside of the fence. Pits are athletic, and he probably could scale the fence if he was really focused on some critter. He might chase it over the fence, but I don't think so. I hope not anyway.


Sandy

[WadePatton]

A dog well-exercised (per Cesar Milan-Dog Whisperer's training) doesn't need much fence to restrain him. A dog without a good daily workout will find his way past over/under/through the best of fences.

Most folks don't understand how much real exercise a dog needs. Practically ALL "bad" dog behaviors are related to doggie boredom/frustration.

Dogs are dogs, people need training atwo.

Congrats and good luck.

Oh and FWIW, I use electric and woven fence wire. ;)

[Louis]

Sandy, I'm confused. If this is the case:

He will probably almost never be out of the house without me.


Why bother to ask this:

Question, as I am a new dog owner, do I just let him go out unattended as he is a dog or should I monitor him per the reasons given above??

????????????????

[Sandy]

I lean towards monitoring him when he's in the back yard. let him out to do his business, but don't leave him out there. If you do, he'll start possesing it by patrolling the fence line and other dominant habits. Once he does it outside, he'll start doing the same inside by patrolling the front windows. He needs to know that's your job. By default, he doesn't want to be a pack leader, but will take on the roll if you don't establish yourself.

You smart! You very smart! Excellent insight. When I am with him outside, I watch very carefully precisely what you mention here. I could see him doing precisely what you say if I just left him there by himself. He will bark/growl (mostly bark) when someone comes to the door or if he hears loud noises outside or if he sees someone close to the house. I think that is good. He normally stops the barking quickly. If he does not, I always refocus his attention so that he does not develop the habit of continual barking (inside or outside).

Thanks for your wise advice.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Sandy, I'm confused. If this is the case:



Why bother to ask this:



????????????????

Sorry. I was not complete in what I said. When I said that he will probably almost never be out of the house without me, I meant off my property, which includes the house, yard and fence. If you see him off my property, you see me. That has been true 100% of the time thus far. King, a harness, a 6 foot leash, and handsome Sandy. The unattended question referrred to my property, and more specifically my back yard.


Sandy

[BUTCH RIDES]

I lean towards monitoring him when he's in the back yard. let him out to do his business, but don't leave him out there. If you do, he'll start possesing it by patrolling the fence line and other dominant habits. Once he does it outside, he'll start doing the same inside by patrolling the front windows. He needs to know that's your job. By default, he doesn't want to be a pack leader, but will take on the roll if you don't establish yourself.

Hello that is good advise that's how Gigi became the dog she is
bye

[1centaur]

I think you will find your own answers soon enough by watching behavior.

When I was a boy we moved to a house with a dog fence for the first time in our boxer's history. She was a runner/escapee type, so she was always on a leash and we had to be very careful at our previous house to make sure she did not squeeze by us out the door.

The first time we let her out in the fenced yard (coated chain link so she could see through - 4 feet high) she thought she had escaped, ran around, took a leap for the fence and hit it a foot from the top. Around again, 6 inches from the top. On more time, 18 inches from the top. Never tried again in the years she lived there.

We would generally let her out to do her business and check on her 2 minutes later, not let her out to dig or find trouble. Kept a casual eye on her when we were out doing other things in the yard. In your case, the key will be fence scalability and digging inclinations. The first time King tries to chase a squirrel over the fence you will both learn something (and the squirrels will learn timing). You have to hope he's not a digger or can easily be corrected away from that, because true diggers will do that 20 feet away from you knowing they will be corrected. You may find him to be a mellow, lie-around dog someday (you undoubtedly see a lot of those as you cycle). I have never owned one, but those are the only types to be left alone in the yard, IMO.

[coylifut]

You smart! You very smart! Excellent insight. When I am with him outside, I watch very carefully precisely what you mention here. I could see him doing precisely what you say if I just left him there by himself. He will bark/growl (mostly bark) when someone comes to the door or if he hears loud noises outside or if he sees someone close to the house. I think that is good. He normally stops the barking quickly. If he does not, I always refocus his attention so that he does not develop the habit of continual barking (inside or outside).

Thanks for your wise advice.


Sandy

to your comments and reinforcing what Wade said above, what the dog needs is a long daily walk on a lead at the heal position. for now, that is about the only thing you need to teach him. do buy the Dog Wisperer CD series. I thought I knew a lot about training dogs and then realized how wrong I was after watching that magician.

once you can get him to walk correctly on the lead, 90% of his other unwanted behaviors will vanish. when encountering other dogs, make sure he's right next to your knee and correct him immediately if he even looks anywhere but forward. Start by crossing to the other side of the street when you encounter others and gradually move closer. For rough house fun play, take him into the back yard and do it there. When people walk by the front of your house and he runs to the windows, block him with your body and back him away. it'll be a lot of work upfront, but it's necessary. The other thing you need to do right away is establish where his "spot" is. If he's food motivated (few dogs aren't), take cut up pieces of turkey hot-dogs and say "go to your spot" and throw a nibble at where you want him to lay. this might sound a little gross, but for now, always have a little baggie of turkey hot-dog bits in your pocket. Once you get him in swing, randomly say, "go to your spot" throughout your day. Eventually, you'll say it and "bang" that's where he is. At the same time. When you feed him, force him to sit and use the command "wait." Make him sit and wait the whole time you are preparing his bowl. Even after placing his bowl on the ground make him "wait." You may have to take him back to his spot over and over until he won't break. After he's satisfied your need for his patience, give him what ever "break" comman you wish and praise him for waiting as he runs for his food.

If you are effective at not allowing him to patrol the front of your house by body blocking him backwards and you've got him hard wired to go to his spot, the next step is have someone ring the door bell and you immediately say "go to your spot" and reward him with a niblit. Don't open the door until he's in his spot. Don't reward him until he's in his spot. He knows what the "wait" comman is. You then go towards the door commanding him to "wait." If he breaks, take him back and make him wait. Work the drill every day, a couple times a day and after a couple of weeks, he'll run to his spot when the door bell rings. He'll likely need to hear you say "go to your spot, just after the ring, but eventually he'll understand that every time the bell rings he gets a niblit once he's in his spot. You may want to post a note on your door that says, "Dog in training, it may take me a while to get to the door."

The thing that can mess all of this up is the introduction of young children and even more so, another dog introduced into the household. I presume you are a retired empty nester?

[Kevan]

grab the shovel and start policing that yard for landmines. You can also distract his misbehaviors by tossing the ball around.

A good dog is a worn out dog.

[WadePatton]

GREAT--somebuddy else gets it. Cesar's Magic.

So my GF said--he won't quit pulling (first time I meet her dog). I say--if you refuse to move forward with tension on the lead--he will quit. I worked with him--dogs pick these things up SO much faster than their owners.

Proper walking is key--and it's just not that hard IF one is consistent and NEVER gets upset during the process.

Great luck. :banana:

[cpg]

Almost all dogs will "defend" their fence. Regardless of your feelings for this dog, the public generally doesn't have warm and fuzzy feelings for pits. I'm not looking to start the whole thread about the breed. I'm just pointing out what I see to be a fact. With that said, the last thing you want or need is this dog charging your fence to "defend" it. He can easily go over that fence if he desires. Given his chase tendencies, your trainers advice is spot on. You need to monitor this closely and now is YOUR time to teach him how to behave. It's always easier to teach good habits rather than untrain bad ones. As someone who has had a big powerful dog with chase habits I can tell you this type of behavior can go wrong quickly and the results can be heart breaking. Follow the advice of your trainer. When you've established the ground rules for your dog and he understands them then you gradually increase his freedoms. Given his breed, size, tendencies and yard arrangements he has not proven himself reliable yet and you would be doing him, the public and yourself a huge disservice by leaving him to figure this out alone.

Curt

[coylifut]

GREAT--somebuddy else gets it. Cesar's Magic.

So my GF said--he won't quit pulling (first time I meet her dog). I say--if you refuse to move forward with tension on the lead--he will quit. I worked with him--dogs pick these things up SO much faster than their owners.

Proper walking is key--and it's just not that hard IF one is consistent and NEVER gets upset during the process.

Great luck. :banana:

the best tecnique I've found with a dog that pulls is to immediately pivot and change directions 180 degrees and walk until he starts pulling and do it again. initially you don't get very far, but the dog usually cathes on in a matter of minutes. Like Cesar, I always use a lead slipped through the loop. If I think the dog is smart, I'll pivot anytime he passes my knee.

I currently have two rescue dogs. One of them is keenly inteligent. The most inteligent dog I've owned (and I've owned a lot), but he was poorly socialized and is a bully. The other is the sweetest dog ever, but dumb as a box of rocks. I've had to work very hard, but they are now both functional pets. They both go to their spots and will "stay" without breaking during long meals, come to 3 toots of a whistle from anywhere and will go to there "spots" upon command. All of this in the face of my two daughters who are the very worst de trainers.

[maunahaole]

I think that you need to watch him for a while, for several reasons. First, that fence is not high enough to keep him in if he wants to get out. If he gets his front paws over, chances are that he will figure out a way to get the rest of him over. Second, give the perimeter a good inspection. Small gaps in the fence will give him a place to start digging to go under or chewing to go through. He will be able to chew a hole through wood that is big enough for him to get through (and it does not have to be very big - less than you realize) if he is determined to do it.

Regardless of training or walking, if he tends to be a little headstrong or can get fixated on something or spooked - he will try to bolt.

[rwsaunders]

http://www.fence-depot.com/learnfence/safe-dog-aluminum-fence.shtml

[BUTCH RIDES]

http://www.amazon.com/No-Bad-Dogs-Woodhouse-Way/dp/0671541854
Hello I hope this helps
bye

[manet]

keno axed that i post 4 him:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.coyaltix.com/extra-big/FE19c.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.coyaltix.com/extra-big/fe19-1.htm&h=340&w=922&sz=76&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=z4eRb7_4qrBKoM:&tbnh=54&tbnw=147&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhorse%2Bexerciser%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den% 26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

[Len J]

Sorry. I was not complete in what I said. When I said that he will probably almost never be out of the house without me, I meant off my property, which includes the house, yard and fence. If you see him off my property, you see me. That has been true 100% of the time thus far. King, a harness, a 6 foot leash, and handsome Sandy. The unattended question referrred to my property, and more specifically my back yard.


Sandy

A few thoughts.

1.) Dogs will do whatever they are allowed to do.
2.) Dogs want to know their place.
3.) You should be the pack leader.
4.) When entering a new environment, you, the pack leader, need to make sure he is clear as to what is acceptable behavior & what is not. Be consistant.
5.) A tired dog is less trouble than a unexercised dog.
6.) A bored dog will dig, chew & generally make trouble.

As to the fence......we have a 140 lb Newfounnland. When we moved into the current house, we left the 6 foot wooden fence facing the street & along the sides the length of the pool, and then from the pool to the back of the lot & across the back, we put in a 6" galvanized steel electroplated in black, fence. We back up to an open area & it really opened up the lot visually, but still contained the Dog. Just an idea.

It's easier to establish good habits in a dog than it is to break bad one's...IMO.

Len

[Ginger]

.When I got there he was pushing around, with his face/head, one of those long black cylindrical tubes used in moving water out of an area in a yard/roof. I could see that he had already started to chew on it at one end. Undoubtedly some little critter, probably a chipmunk, had been in the tubing.



No. Stop making excuses.

No critter was in that tube. Your pup was bored. He was amusing himself with worry activities.

He's still a puppy. Until he hits that age where all he wants to do is lay around (10 or 12) you're "IT." You picked the job. Stick with it.

You haven't had him long enough to leave him in the yard without you. He isn't old enough and He doesn't know the world well enough or you well enough for you to start letting him have that control.

Sorry Sandy. You have to be there. From now on, he WAITS for you to get your shoes and coat on.

Remain in control.

(And it doesn't matter to me one whit what breed the dog is...this *size* breed is still a pup at this age. You have til he's 3 or 4 for him to be past preteen or adolescent.)

[chuckroast]

Hi Sandy, our girls are 4 years old and have a yard sized enclosure on our property. We use a 5 foot chain link fence and I never leave them out there unattended for more than a minute or so. I can watch them from the garage window over my workbench and that's as remote as I want to get. They lover to chase squirrels up the trees in the yard and having me out there keeps the barking down.

[edouard]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/bearridingbike.jpg

[Dekonick]

A dog well-exercised (per Cesar Milan-Dog Whisperer's training) doesn't need much fence to restrain him. A dog without a good daily workout will find his way past over/under/through the best of fences.

Most folks don't understand how much real exercise a dog needs. Practically ALL "bad" dog behaviors are related to doggie boredom/frustration.

Dogs are dogs, people need training atwo.

Congrats and good luck.

Oh and FWIW, I use electric and woven fence wire. ;)

+1 on both electric and wire fence. I let Truckie romp outside whenever he wants - he never gets into trouble. We did spend the time to train him properly on the electric fence. You have played with Truckie so you be the judje - I have no idea how similar he is to King.

Dek.

Also - truckie likes to sit on the top step of our deck and survey the land. He will do this for hours and us quite content.

[swoop]

listen to ginger.

[roman meal]

1.) Middle school students will do whatever they are allowed to do.
2.) Middle school students want to know their place.
3.) The teacher should be the pack leader.
4.) When entering a new environment, you, the teacher, need to make sure he is clear as to what is acceptable behavior & what is not. Be consistant.
5.) A tired middle school student is less trouble than a unexercised middle school student.
6.) A bored middle school student will dig, chew & generally make trouble.

Thanks, Len.


I don't know why I went to graduate school for this stuff.

[Ken Robb]

nothing to add about training but a thought: make sure your homowner's insurance policy doesn't exclude "certain breeds" of dogs from liability coverage. Some do.

[edouard]

.

[roman meal]

nothing to add about training but a thought: make sure your homowner's insurance policy doesn't exclude "certain breeds" of dogs from liability coverage. Some do.


My insurance policy excludes my four and six year old boys from liability coverage.

[capybaras]

Sandy,
Please sign up for the Dog Whisperer. It would be fun to see you and King on tv, you have an interesting story to tell since you have wanted a dog for so long, and you would no doubt get good advice. I don't know what you have to do to get on the show but you should try. Dogs like to have a boss. I bet King and Daddy would get along famously. :beer:

[Sandy]

Thanks so much for the wonderful responses. I will respond to them individually in the thread. Great insightful responses.


Sandy

[Sandy]

No. Stop making excuses.

No critter was in that tube. Your pup was bored. He was amusing himself with worry activities.

He's still a puppy. Until he hits that age where all he wants to do is lay around (10 or 12) you're "IT." You picked the job. Stick with it.

You haven't had him long enough to leave him in the yard without you. He isn't old enough and He doesn't know the world well enough or you well enough for you to start letting him have that control.

Sorry Sandy. You have to be there. From now on, he WAITS for you to get your shoes and coat on.

Remain in control.

(And it doesn't matter to me one whit what breed the dog is...this *size* breed is still a pup at this age. You have til he's 3 or 4 for him to be past preteen or adolescent.)

In actuality I pay remarkable attention to the job that I picked. I spend a tremendous amount of time with King, both inside and outside. I more than stick with the job I chose. I walk him about 2 plus hours every day and monitor him in the house and in the back yard. I play with him in the house, outside of the house and take him to a dog trainer. I taught him on my own how to walk well with a leash, sit, wait, and not to pull n the leash, prior to any instruction. He is going to the vet tomorrow for a mark on his head. Took a stool sample there yesterday. Took him for a 2 hour visit to the shelter he came from yesterday also.

I do not agree at all that he was bored and that there was no critter in the tube. He usually leaves the tubes alone. There were 3 such tubes, one I already placed elsewhere because he kept after it previously, obviously sniffing and sniffing, trying to get inside of it to get at some critter that had frequented it before. Clearly he was using his sense of smell and following his terrier prey drive. Clear highly focused prey drive, using his remarkable sense of smell, that terriers have. No boredom at all in this case. At least that was and is my clear perception.

I went to a pit bull seminar given by a pit bull owner and dog trainer who says pits mature late and are puppys until age 3 or more. She also does not like Ceaser's training methods at all, but that is another topic in itself.

I am about to take King out. I normally do make him wait for me to put my shoes on and take items necessary for the walk. I make him wait for his food also. I will follow your advice and make him wait. I let him go out ahead of me a couple of times as he had focused intently on squirrels through the glass sliding door.

King has certain fears and worries and I am going to work on that with the trainer.

I really don't understand the comment "You picked the job. Stick with it." I stick with the job like velcro.


Sandy

[Ginger]

Sandy...

I don't watch TV so I have no idea who that dude is.


I was raised with hunting dogs and I raised and trained individual, rather alpha dogs and horses from youngsters myself, and a few abused dogs on top of that, and I've listened to plenty of people who have adopted dogs and people who train dogs and horses.

My response was just my understanding of the dog/training world and the length of time you've had the dog.

Don't be defensive. It's just a gentle reminder.
You are right at the time point where people start to relax and start loosing control of the dog. That is all I'm pointing out.

Starting to let him out without you is demonstrative of this.

Be mindful.

Good luck.

[saab2000]

listen to ginger.

Ginger gets it! I am sure King is a good boy! but I don't want King chasing me! If Sandy remains the boss, King won't chase me.

[Sandy]

Trust me. I listen very closely to everything you say about anything. I highly respect your insight. I want the best for the dog. I plan to remain in control. He clearly follows my lead. He is lying on the carpet, barely one foot away from me, patiently waitingfor me to take him out.

I am surprised at how many people have agreed that I should continue to monitor him in the yard. I plan to do just that based on the great wisdom given in the thread thus far.

Sandy

[Sandy]

Ginger gets it! I am sure King is a good boy! but I don't want King chasing me! If Sandy remains the boss, King won't chase me.

I don't want King chasing anybody ever.


Sandy

[saab2000]

I don't want King chasing anybody ever.


Sandy


Me and dogs get along just fine, as long as they are not chasing me on my Serotta!

[William]

I don't want King chasing anybody ever.


Sandy

Sandy, Rhea Basset wants to challenge King to a race. It has to be by her rules though:

1.) She gets to say when the race starts
2.) She gets to choose Where the race goes
3.) She gets to choose when the race ends
4.) She gets to choose the race official (Bruno Boxer)
5.) She says going into the grass is just fine




Rhea "Lightening" Basset :banana:

[Sandy]

A dog well-exercised (per Cesar Milan-Dog Whisperer's training) doesn't need much fence to restrain him. A dog without a good daily workout will find his way past over/under/through the best of fences.

Most folks don't understand how much real exercise a dog needs. Practically ALL "bad" dog behaviors are related to doggie boredom/frustration.

Dogs are dogs, people need training atwo.

Congrats and good luck.

Oh and FWIW, I use electric and woven fence wire. ;)

Unfortunately, I do not get Cesar Milan on my cable. I agree that exercise is critical for dogs. Also the breed and the nature of the particular dog is critical too. King is walked for about 2 hours per day and plays in the yard under my supervision. He runs around sometimes in the yard and sometimes he will fetch a "bone" that is made out of tennis ball type material. He loves to chew on items like the "bone". Problem is he has very strong jaws and those items don't last him too long. He has a couple of extreme Kongs which last him and which he chews on in the house occasionally. I will play a little tug of war with him with the big Kong or the "bone" but I control when it starts and when it stops. I am in the process of teaching him the sequence- "mine", "easy", let him take the "bone' for a bit, and "drop it".

Yep dogs are dogs and they have differernt interests than people. I agree that the person must be trained about dog behavior.

Thanks for the post.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I think you will find your own answers soon enough by watching behavior.

When I was a boy we moved to a house with a dog fence for the first time in our boxer's history. She was a runner/escapee type, so she was always on a leash and we had to be very careful at our previous house to make sure she did not squeeze by us out the door.

The first time we let her out in the fenced yard (coated chain link so she could see through - 4 feet high) she thought she had escaped, ran around, took a leap for the fence and hit it a foot from the top. Around again, 6 inches from the top. On more time, 18 inches from the top. Never tried again in the years she lived there.

We would generally let her out to do her business and check on her 2 minutes later, not let her out to dig or find trouble. Kept a casual eye on her when we were out doing other things in the yard. In your case, the key will be fence scalability and digging inclinations. The first time King tries to chase a squirrel over the fence you will both learn something (and the squirrels will learn timing). You have to hope he's not a digger or can easily be corrected away from that, because true diggers will do that 20 feet away from you knowing they will be corrected. You may find him to be a mellow, lie-around dog someday (you undoubtedly see a lot of those as you cycle). I have never owned one, but those are the only types to be left alone in the yard, IMO.

King is very mellow in the house. In the yard he follows whatever scent he picks up. If he sees a squirrel he chases it. That occurs when I first let him out. Once he is out the little critters stay out of harms way. King could potentially be a digger, but anytime he starts, I get him to focus on something else. I watch him carefully when he is near the fence and is interested in something on the other side. There is a smallish lab mix that lives next door. She does not like other dogs and is sometimes very aggressive to them. She is let out in her yard only occasionally and only for a very short while to do her business. She has been aggressive to King through the fence on a couple of occassions. King has not been aggressive in return. My perception is that he will normally not start any aggressive actions towards another dog and is easily one of the best behaved dogs when I walk him in the neighborhood when other dogs get somewhat close to him. Thus far I have not allowed direct interaction with other dogs on walks. If another dog acts within reason King clearly often wants to play. If a dog is obviously overly aggressive towards him and what he perceives is too close to him, King will not back away.

Boxers are just wonderful family dogs. Great pets. They are decidedly different than pit bulls in that pits have a terrier heritage and hence a much more pronounced prey drive. In addition, they were bred for fighting other dogs, and although that factor varies tremendously from pit to pit it is still a factor that I must always remember and respect. They fight in a manner different than most dogs. King is well behaved, but I will never take him to a dog park. No reason to take a chance. If a fight started I don't think that he would be the initial aggressor, but so what.

Thanks for your post.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Sandy, Rhea Basset wants to challenge King to a race. It has to be by her rules though:

1.) She gets to say when the race starts
2.) She gets to choose Where the race goes
3.) She gets to choose when the race ends
4.) She gets to choose the race official (Bruno Boxer)
5.) She says going into the grass is just fine




Rhea "Lightening" Basset :banana:

No problem. At the start of the race, I will just drop a box of some delicious smelling liver treats in front of Rhea "LIghtning" Basset. King and I will slowly walk the race course, slowly walk back, and then try to lift the stomach filled Rhea " Snail Slow" Bassett off the ground. :banana: :banana:



King's Trainer

[Sandy]

to your comments and reinforcing what Wade said above, what the dog needs is a long daily walk on a lead at the heal position. for now, that is about the only thing you need to teach him. do buy the Dog Wisperer CD series. I thought I knew a lot about training dogs and then realized how wrong I was after watching that magician.

once you can get him to walk correctly on the lead, 90% of his other unwanted behaviors will vanish. when encountering other dogs, make sure he's right next to your knee and correct him immediately if he even looks anywhere but forward. Start by crossing to the other side of the street when you encounter others and gradually move closer. For rough house fun play, take him into the back yard and do it there. When people walk by the front of your house and he runs to the windows, block him with your body and back him away. it'll be a lot of work upfront, but it's necessary. The other thing you need to do right away is establish where his "spot" is. If he's food motivated (few dogs aren't), take cut up pieces of turkey hot-dogs and say "go to your spot" and throw a nibble at where you want him to lay. this might sound a little gross, but for now, always have a little baggie of turkey hot-dog bits in your pocket. Once you get him in swing, randomly say, "go to your spot" throughout your day. Eventually, you'll say it and "bang" that's where he is. At the same time. When you feed him, force him to sit and use the command "wait." Make him sit and wait the whole time you are preparing his bowl. Even after placing his bowl on the ground make him "wait." You may have to take him back to his spot over and over until he won't break. After he's satisfied your need for his patience, give him what ever "break" comman you wish and praise him for waiting as he runs for his food.

If you are effective at not allowing him to patrol the front of your house by body blocking him backwards and you've got him hard wired to go to his spot, the next step is have someone ring the door bell and you immediately say "go to your spot" and reward him with a niblit. Don't open the door until he's in his spot. Don't reward him until he's in his spot. He knows what the "wait" comman is. You then go towards the door commanding him to "wait." If he breaks, take him back and make him wait. Work the drill every day, a couple times a day and after a couple of weeks, he'll run to his spot when the door bell rings. He'll likely need to hear you say "go to your spot, just after the ring, but eventually he'll understand that every time the bell rings he gets a niblit once he's in his spot. You may want to post a note on your door that says, "Dog in training, it may take me a while to get to the door."

The thing that can mess all of this up is the introduction of young children and even more so, another dog introduced into the household. I presume you are a retired empty nester?

Some wonderful advice. When I first met King at the shelter he would pull very hard on the leash. He knew nothing about walking with one. I switched to a harness that was attached at the back- great improvement but did not help too much in controlling where he would walk (but he understood what I wanted). I now use a harness that is attached in front at the breast bone. It is remarkably better than the others. He walks quite well on the leash now and although I have not formally taught him heel, he knows to walk on my left and most often I have a relaxed leash while walking with him. I taught him sit and wait a while back and he does both reasonably well. He shows patience. If we are walking and I must stop for something, I tell him to wait and he just stands and waits. I make him sit and wait to go outside and sit and wait for his food. Your post will make me wait longer before I release him from the wait. He is made to sit at most corners, unlessit is really cold and to wait. He does that very well. I play a little rougher with him in the living room and outside usually with a stuffed toy or an Extreme Kong. I am teaching him the sequence- mine, easy, let him take the toy, and drop it. I control the rough play. I do play tug of war with him some under the rule that I decide when it starts and when it is over. He does not have specifiec spots that I tell him to o to, except when it is bed time and I tell him let's go to bed and he follows me upstairs to his bed that is at the base of our (wife and mine) bed. He is allowed up on some furniture, but not our bed. Ireally do not mind him going to the window or door and barking when someone comes up. Pits don't normally bark without a reason and don't normally continue excessive barking. If he is barking a little too much, I refocus his attention on something else......

Thanks for your wonderful suggestions. I genuinely appreciate them and will pay close attention to them all.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Almost all dogs will "defend" their fence. Regardless of your feelings for this dog, the public generally doesn't have warm and fuzzy feelings for pits. I'm not looking to start the whole thread about the breed. I'm just pointing out what I see to be a fact. With that said, the last thing you want or need is this dog charging your fence to "defend" it. He can easily go over that fence if he desires. Given his chase tendencies, your trainers advice is spot on. You need to monitor this closely and now is YOUR time to teach him how to behave. It's always easier to teach good habits rather than untrain bad ones. As someone who has had a big powerful dog with chase habits I can tell you this type of behavior can go wrong quickly and the results can be heart breaking. Follow the advice of your trainer. When you've established the ground rules for your dog and he understands them then you gradually increase his freedoms. Given his breed, size, tendencies and yard arrangements he has not proven himself reliable yet and you would be doing him, the public and yourself a huge disservice by leaving him to figure this out alone.

Curt

No problem about bringing up the pit bull dog feeling that most people share. It is a genuine concern and I am quite sensitive to it and to people who feel that way. One comment about that- pits were bred to fight other dogs but were also bred to get along well with people as those who fought the dogs had to hjandle the dogs during fighting times and did not want to be bit.

I must say that you make total sense in what you say about monitoring my dog. I do allow him to run over to any paert of the yard that he wants. I will allow him to bark once or twice at a passerby or a noise that he hears, but that is it. I do not allow him to attack the fence or do repetitive barking. Your analysis seems spot on and I thank you for it.


Sandy

[Sandy]

the best tecnique I've found with a dog that pulls is to immediately pivot and change directions 180 degrees and walk until he starts pulling and do it again. initially you don't get very far, but the dog usually cathes on in a matter of minutes. Like Cesar, I always use a lead slipped through the loop. If I think the dog is smart, I'll pivot anytime he passes my knee.

I currently have two rescue dogs. One of them is keenly inteligent. The most inteligent dog I've owned (and I've owned a lot), but he was poorly socialized and is a bully. The other is the sweetest dog ever, but dumb as a box of rocks. I've had to work very hard, but they are now both functional pets. They both go to their spots and will "stay" without breaking during long meals, come to 3 toots of a whistle from anywhere and will go to there "spots" upon command. All of this in the face of my two daughters who are the very worst de trainers.

Do you mean that you and Cesar use the leash as a collar and leash simultaneously? That is what we do when we walk dogs at the shelter. I do not like that method at all as it can clearly cause permanent damage to the neck of the dog, especially for big and or strong dogs that pull a great deal.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I think that you need to watch him for a while, for several reasons. First, that fence is not high enough to keep him in if he wants to get out. If he gets his front paws over, chances are that he will figure out a way to get the rest of him over. Second, give the perimeter a good inspection. Small gaps in the fence will give him a place to start digging to go under or chewing to go through. He will be able to chew a hole through wood that is big enough for him to get through (and it does not have to be very big - less than you realize) if he is determined to do it.

Regardless of training or walking, if he tends to be a little headstrong or can get fixated on something or spooked - he will try to bolt.

Again- A great post. Thanks. I do not think that King will ever bolt from the yard as he is secure there and has fears that would cause him to say in the safety of our home or yard. He does have, however, a big prey drive, and I could see the possibility of him scaling the fence after a squirrel. I cinstantly check for holes near the fence and the fence is a new one. I won't take any chances there.


Hole In The Head Sandy

[Sandy]

A few thoughts.

1.) Dogs will do whatever they are allowed to do.
2.) Dogs want to know their place.
3.) You should be the pack leader.
4.) When entering a new environment, you, the pack leader, need to make sure he is clear as to what is acceptable behavior & what is not. Be consistant.
5.) A tired dog is less trouble than a unexercised dog.
6.) A bored dog will dig, chew & generally make trouble.

As to the fence......we have a 140 lb Newfounnland. When we moved into the current house, we left the 6 foot wooden fence facing the street & along the sides the length of the pool, and then from the pool to the back of the lot & across the back, we put in a 6" galvanized steel electroplated in black, fence. We back up to an open area & it really opened up the lot visually, but still contained the Dog. Just an idea.

It's easier to establish good habits in a dog than it is to break bad one's...IMO.

Len

Per usual, great points. All of them. Thanks!


Sandy

[Sandy]

Hi Sandy, our girls are 4 years old and have a yard sized enclosure on our property. We use a 5 foot chain link fence and I never leave them out there unattended for more than a minute or so. I can watch them from the garage window over my workbench and that's as remote as I want to get. They lover to chase squirrels up the trees in the yard and having me out there keeps the barking down.

Interesting. KIng never barks at the squirrels. He is too busy smelling for one or chasing one if he sees it.


Squirrel Sandy

[Sandy]

nothing to add about training but a thought: make sure your homowner's insurance policy doesn't exclude "certain breeds" of dogs from liability coverage. Some do.

I am aware of that. I have All State Insurance and asked my agent about that years ago. I don't think he said anything abour exclusion. It is quite important. Thanks! I will ask again. Sometimes pits and rotties are excluded, among others.


Sandy

[Sandy]

1.) Middle school students will do whatever they are allowed to do.
2.) Middle school students want to know their place.
3.) The teacher should be the pack leader.
4.) When entering a new environment, you, the teacher, need to make sure he is clear as to what is acceptable behavior & what is not. Be consistant.
5.) A tired middle school student is less trouble than a unexercised middle school student.
6.) A bored middle school student will dig, chew & generally make trouble.

Thanks, Len.


I don't know why I went to graduate school for this stuff.

Wow! What works for kids works for dogs and vice versa. Great post.

Do you teach middle school? I taught high school math but taught middle school math for one year. Those kids are "nuts", especially the 8th graders or whatever they are called now.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I am tired. I will respond to the last few posts tomorrow. Thanks so much for your wonderful suggestions and comments.


Sandy

[flux]

OK. I have neither a dog, nor fence, nor house to surround my house and/or dog. In this case do I ride Campy, SRAM or Shimano?

[OtayBW]

OK. I have neither a dog, nor fence, nor house to surround my house and/or dog. In this case do I ride Campy, SRAM or Shimano?

bro, I thought OT threads were cool around here, no?

[Fixed]

campy shimano good names for a dog red too
work them dogs out and they sleep no work out no sleep hmm just like me
cheers :beer:

[coylifut]

Do you mean that you and Cesar use the leash as a collar and leash simultaneously? That is what we do when we walk dogs at the shelter. I do not like that method at all as it can clearly cause permanent damage to the neck of the dog, especially for big and or strong dogs that pull a great deal.


Sandy

it's all about finesse. you don't just loop a lead on a dog you don't know and take him outside. i've found the best way to teach dog to walk on a lead is to teach him first inside. walk around the house, it forces you to constantly change directions - the dog will follow. if you have a dog that's easily distracted and "breaks" to chase things, you quickly pivot and go the opposite direction of where he wants to go and he'll quickly return to the heel position. the reason why is because you are leading. I have never, nor will ever choke a dog. sounds to me like you have a great little guy. he walks on a lose leash and is not aggressive towards other dogs. you two are really lucky to have each other.

changing directions here, you made a comment earlier about the dog barking or getting interested in the goings on outside the front door and that being "good." can you elaborate.

[Sandy]

I used to walk lots of dogs at the local shelter until I started having major problems with fatigue and energy. I have walked several thouand dogs there and some more recently at an associated no kill shelter. The way we walked the dogs was as given, using the leash as both the leash and collar. We had almost no other leashes available. The vast majority of the dogs did not walk well on a leash and many would pul very hard, especially strong dogs like pits who have very strong muscles, including their neck. Your mehodology of changing directions seems ideal. I never used that much in teaching King how to walk on a leash. I have handled a zillion dogs but never trained one. My brother and I were given a German Shepherd Dog as a gift by our parents when we had our Bar Mitzvah (around the age of 13). My brother took him to some obedience classes until he broke his finger (brother). He really did not go through so many classes but he was amazingly obedient and for the last 10 years of his life approximately we never had to even use a leash. He was a truly amazing and wonderful dog. If interested, I will tell you about an incident in which he sat and stayed for me for 3-4 hours before I realized I left him some place.

King will bark or make a soft bark/growl if he hears an unfamilair noise and will bark more loudly if someone is approaching the house. When the fence installers were putting in the fence he would bark at them in the yard through the sliding glass door window, especially if they came up close to the house. I think that warning adds to a safety feature for people in the house as it directs people inside to know tha King is aware of something and it communicates to the people outside that it might be best not to come into the house unannounced. Pits are not excessive and yappy barkers like many dogs. They bark for a reason. I never let King bark excessively.


Sandy

[Ray]

Interesting advice here. I never followed ANY of it. We have a smaller dog, a cocker/poodle mix. We used to live in a house with a fenced yard and a dog door in our basement door. Once we had the fence for a while and secured the couple of places the dog could get over the fence (yeah, she got out a couple of times at the beginning), we'd let her be out there as much as she wanted. It was her yard. She'd keep it safe for democracy by chasing down all of the squirrels and any other critters that might show up. It was her bathroom and playpen. We'd still walk her every day and take her out to where we could let her off the leash and really let her run a couple of times per week, but when we were at home, she was outside (attended or not) anytime she wanted to be. She never damaged anything or caused any trouble. If we let her out at night, she'd bark like crazy, so we didn't. During the day, she'd just bark at a squirrel for the few seconds it took her to chase it away, then she'd stop. We used to leave the dog door unlocked all day when everyone was gone and I'd often come home from work and see her in her favorite spot, keeping watch over her domain. I never saw any of this as a problem. We live in a condo now and she doesn't have a yard to run in so we walk her and take her out to the country to run much more frequently. I don't see any difference in her behavior - she is and always has been a really sweet and happy dog. No trouble from her.

Also, when we walk her, we have a retractable leash that has about 25 feet of lead on it. She's learned to stay on the sidewalk and avoid the street, so we give her all the rope she wants except in unusual circumstances when we pull her back in. She'll run forward, she'll lag behind, whatever. She has a good time and doesn't bother anyone.

It sounds like all of this is wrong, but she seems happy and we certainly enjoy her company this way. I didn't know there were so many rules. It always seemed to me like raising kids. There are a zillion books, but its not that complicated - people were doing it for a long time before there were books fercryinoutloud. You just do what works and when something doesn't work, you don't do it anymore.

-Ray

[Too Tall]

Dear Sandy, are you high? With all the work you've put into that dog you are asking a bunch of bike dopes (myself included)????

Serious answer...fences are to keep neighbors out. A dog yard is a convenience for the owner to let their pooch out for a quick dump. I'd never leave my Beau or Jean Luc outside longer than it takes for them to do their business.

In closing your honor I'd like to offer the final authority:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5B0oyJ5tHA

[Sandy]

Interesting advice here. I never followed ANY of it. We have a smaller dog, a cocker/poodle mix. We used to live in a house with a fenced yard and a dog door in our basement door. Once we had the fence for a while and secured the couple of places the dog could get over the fence (yeah, she got out a couple of times at the beginning), we'd let her be out there as much as she wanted. It was her yard. She'd keep it safe for democracy by chasing down all of the squirrels and any other critters that might show up. It was her bathroom and playpen. We'd still walk her every day and take her out to where we could let her off the leash and really let her run a couple of times per week, but when we were at home, she was outside (attended or not) anytime she wanted to be. She never damaged anything or caused any trouble. If we let her out at night, she'd bark like crazy, so we didn't. During the day, she'd just bark at a squirrel for the few seconds it took her to chase it away, then she'd stop. We used to leave the dog door unlocked all day when everyone was gone and I'd often come home from work and see her in her favorite spot, keeping watch over her domain. I never saw any of this as a problem. We live in a condo now and she doesn't have a yard to run in so we walk her and take her out to the country to run much more frequently. I don't see any difference in her behavior - she is and always has been a really sweet and happy dog. No trouble from her.

Also, when we walk her, we have a retractable leash that has about 25 feet of lead on it. She's learned to stay on the sidewalk and avoid the street, so we give her all the rope she wants except in unusual circumstances when we pull her back in. She'll run forward, she'll lag behind, whatever. She has a good time and doesn't bother anyone.

It sounds like all of this is wrong, but she seems happy and we certainly enjoy her company this way. I didn't know there were so many rules. It always seemed to me like raising kids. There are a zillion books, but its not that complicated - people were doing it for a long time before there were books fercryinoutloud. You just do what works and when something doesn't work, you don't do it anymore.

-Ray

Your post made me laugh. Not in I thought it funny or that I saw it silly but because I enjoyed so much your pragmatic, whatever works, my approach is so different,there Ray goes again making so much sense even though he disagress with almost everyone in this particular instance way, fresh idea, sensible, forget the books,....., not so complicated,...way. Love your post. Love the disparity between your post and the others.

Ray you suely always give a fresh and most reasonable approach to everything. I guess after reading the other posts and yours, I must use the word balance in my approach. Thanks for your approach!

One thing though, my dog is a pit which is a different animal than a cocker/poodle both in public sentiment, responsibility in some manners, liability, prey drive ( American pit bull terrier), athleticism,....

In acutuality if some of those who fear pits ever met my dog they would see that he is just a big baby- Not so big I guess- 64.4 pounds up from 61 a bit ago (swallowed a chihuahua whole :) :) ).

Thanks Ray! You made my day!


Sandy

[Sandy]

Dear Sandy, are you high? With all the work you've put into that dog you are asking a bunch of bike dopes (myself included)????

Serious answer...fences are to keep neighbors out. A dog yard is a convenience for the owner to let their pooch out for a quick dump. I'd never leave my Beau or Jean Luc outside longer than it takes for them to do their business.

In closing your honor I'd like to offer the final authority:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5B0oyJ5tHA

How are your guys doing? I know that one of them is not well, but I am old and decrepit and can't remember which one is sick. :rolleyes:


Sandy

[jerk]

i can't believe i'm posting this on a bicycle interweb forum but here goes; sandy its a godamn pitbull, not a breakable piece of china! a choke collar is not going to "hurt" a dog. it probably won't work in terms of training him to heel, particularly as he's already an adult. all it'll do is make your dog sound like a three-pack a day smoker.

buy bill tarrant's book, "best way to train your gun dog". it's as much about a man named delmar smith as it is about training dogs and it is a wonderful book about a wonderful slice of humanity....but whatever, here's the deal:

use a pinch collar; a pinch collar is a spike collar whose studs you hace blunted. in the mind of the unthinking its an instrument of torture. basically take an old spike collar and hit each brass stud six times with a file. the pinch coillar doesn't gouge, cut, strangle or imprint. a pinch collar is great because it's a device controlled by the dog, not the handler. pup determines what he wants to endure. Resist and he's pinched. give and he's released. with anyother collar the handler makes that determination; not the dog.

basically, the dog rather than the handler determines the dog's tolerance. set the collar to catch a roll of skin on the bottom of puppy's neck.

anyway, the collars got a brass roller, basically you say heel or halt or whatever and if the dog keeps pulling, he quickly learns. another great trick is to tie a big round not down a few inches on the leash so you can swing the leash up and hit the dog in the chin to get him listening.

here's the thing-you have to be firm and consitent and never angery when dealing with dogs. they can never associate you with pain or suffering, you should be their best friend. a pinch collar is the easiest way.

jerk

[Len J]

Do you mean that you and Cesar use the leash as a collar and leash simultaneously? That is what we do when we walk dogs at the shelter. I do not like that method at all as it can clearly cause permanent damage to the neck of the dog, especially for big and or strong dogs that pull a great deal.


Sandy

Sandy:

A slide collor, high on the neck (just behind the ears) will always get a dogs attention. When they are beginning to pull, it's because a.) they still think they are in charge & b.) something has attracted their attention. A quick sharp tug on a properly places slide color a.) reinforces who is really in charge & b.) distracts the dog away from what attracted his attention.

One other thing Cesear emphasizes. stop walking when a dog pulls, quick pull on the slide collar & then don't move until the dog is beside you (preferrably seated). It's about being dominant.

Len

[Ginger]

Sandy. Yes. Incorrectly applied collars used by people who don't know the proper method to signal a dog with a collar can damage a dog. Why do you think you can watch a dog go from a pulling crazy beast with an owner to a well behaved model citizen in two steps with a trainer regardless of what method of control the collar uses?
Dogs don't damage themselves, collars don't damage dogs, people damage dogs. And listen to the Jerk on this one. If you don't know how to properly apply a "choke" collar, pick up a pinch collar and have a trainer help you learn to use it. They don't cause "pain" they cause surprise. They work exceptionally well. Suddenly, the world becomes a much less contentious place.

Actually...none of the "approved" control collars are supposed to cause "pain" when properly used. It's the improper use of equipment that causes damage and pain.


On a big dog and barking at the door: Teach him to bark only once or twice to alert you, then move to "his spot" in the house. Why? It's not his job to protect the house, it's yours. (in the pack mentality) It takes a bit of time...but it's certainly worth it.

And on top of that...now you think it's a nice protective feature for your dog to bark like a ravening beast on the other side of the door, but what if it's your friend or relative or a girl scout selling cookies or emergency services you want to let in the door? (I'm sure an ambulance showed up when Gloria fell?) Having a dog who's protecting the door is a pain. An alert dog (no matter what the breed) can be just as protective and intimidating to strangers, if not more, when he's shown to be a trained dog.

My Dalmatian was big, 98lbs, and he was trained to alert me (one to three barks, that was it), then go to a room where he could see what was going on, but was required to sit and wait until he was invited to approach the guest. It is WAY more convenient than having to hold the dog and sign for a package or whatever. It also intimidated people who came to the door.
"I heard a dog?" "Yep, he's right over there...waiting for me to tell him what to do." And having an alert controlled dog waiting for a command is far more intimidating to people than a out of control barker.

You're teaching King hand commands along with voice commands, yes???
Stop, Sit, Stay, Down, Come. Those are the handiest of the hand commands...


You should take King to one of those 8 week group obedience training courses. Given the right trainer (and I would pick a trainer led group so you could talk about your dog before showing up) it's an excellent socialization opportunity for your dog. You too.

Good luck Sandy!

[coylifut]

I used to walk lots of dogs at the local shelter until I started having major problems with fatigue and energy. I have walked several thouand dogs there and some more recently at an associated no kill shelter. The way we walked the dogs was as given, using the leash as both the leash and collar. We had almost no other leashes available. The vast majority of the dogs did not walk well on a leash and many would pul very hard, especially strong dogs like pits who have very strong muscles, including their neck. Your mehodology of changing directions seems ideal. I never used that much in teaching King how to walk on a leash. I have handled a zillion dogs but never trained one. My brother and I were given a German Shepherd Dog as a gift by our parents when we had our Bar Mitzvah (around the age of 13). My brother took him to some obedience classes until he broke his finger (brother). He really did not go through so many classes but he was amazingly obedient and for the last 10 years of his life approximately we never had to even use a leash. He was a truly amazing and wonderful dog. If interested, I will tell you about an incident in which he sat and stayed for me for 3-4 hours before I realized I left him some place.

King will bark or make a soft bark/growl if he hears an unfamilair noise and will bark more loudly if someone is approaching the house. When the fence installers were putting in the fence he would bark at them in the yard through the sliding glass door window, especially if they came up close to the house. I think that warning adds to a safety feature for people in the house as it directs people inside to know tha King is aware of something and it communicates to the people outside that it might be best not to come into the house unannounced. Pits are not excessive and yappy barkers like many dogs. They bark for a reason. I never let King bark excessively.


Sandy

I'd love to hear your story about the shep who "stayed" for 3 hours. there some real once in a life time dogs and he sounds like one of them. that's why I'm clear to distinguish the difference between "wait" (preparing meals, answering doors) and "stay."

It comes down to personal preference, but I don't like a dog who patrols or protects my house at all. It's my job to protect my house and my dog(s). Certain dogs (and King sounds like he's only slightly dominant) will become ever increasingly dominant over time if you let them dominate anything. It happens so gradually you don't notice and then gradually spills over into their other routines. If you make the "no patrol" choice, when you leave, he must go into his crate so he doesn't patrol while you are gone. I suspect you are already doing this because you've said he's a chewer.

Speaking of chewing. I have a dog and can destroy anything in minutes. There's no chew toy that's safe. It get those large size bones and the pet store. Ask for the toughest one. I've never seen a dog where it didn't take quite a while to go through those, but I King is a pit and that may be a different story all together. If you have problems with him digging, contact me off line. I've got a sure fire technique to stop the behavior.

[coylifut]

Sandy. Yes. Incorrectly applied collars used by people who don't know the proper method to signal a dog with a collar can damage a dog. Why do you think you can watch a dog go from a pulling crazy beast with an owner to a well behaved model citizen in two steps with a trainer regardless of what method of control the collar uses?
Dogs don't damage themselves, collars don't damage dogs, people damage dogs. And listen to the Jerk on this one. If you don't know how to properly apply a "choke" collar, pick up a pinch collar and have a trainer help you learn to use it. They don't cause "pain" they cause surprise. They work exceptionally well. Suddenly, the world becomes a much less contentious place.

Actually...none of the "approved" control collars are supposed to cause "pain" when properly used. It's the improper use of equipment that causes damage and pain.


On a big dog and barking at the door: Teach him to bark only once or twice to alert you, then move to "his spot" in the house. Why? It's not his job to protect the house, it's yours. (in the pack mentality) It takes a bit of time...but it's certainly worth it.

And on top of that...now you think it's a nice protective feature for your dog to bark like a ravening beast on the other side of the door, but what if it's your friend or relative or a girl scout selling cookies or emergency services you want to let in the door? (I'm sure an ambulance showed up when Gloria fell?) Having a dog who's protecting the door is a pain. An alert dog (no matter what the breed) can be just as protective and intimidating to strangers, if not more, when he's shown to be a trained dog.

My Dalmatian was big, 98lbs, and he was trained to alert me (one to three barks, that was it), then go to a room where he could see what was going on, but was required to sit and wait until he was invited to approach the guest. It is WAY more convenient than having to hold the dog and sign for a package or whatever. It also intimidated people who came to the door.
"I heard a dog?" "Yep, he's right over there...waiting for me to tell him what to do." And having an alert controlled dog waiting for a command is far more intimidating to people than a out of control barker.

You're teaching King hand commands along with voice commands, yes???
Stop, Sit, Stay, Down, Come. Those are the handiest of the hand commands...


You should take King to one of those 8 week group obedience training courses. Given the right trainer (and I would pick a trainer led group so you could talk about your dog before showing up) it's an excellent socialization opportunity for your dog. You too.

Good luck Sandy!

I completely agree with all of Ginger's points here.

[Ray]

One thing though, my dog is a pit which is a different animal than a cocker/poodle both in public sentiment, responsibility in some manners, liability, prey drive ( American pit bull terrier), athleticism,....

Yeah, no doubt. That's why I started with 'all dogs and people are different'.

And I guess I can't say I never listened to ANY advice. Our dog pulled on the leash when we first had her. Then, at the advice of a friend, we got her one of those Halti collars, which looks sort of like a muzzle. If she pulls, it tightens around her mouth and she can't pant or get her tongue out. So she doesn't pull anymore, unless she sees a squirrel within reach and then she'll run to the end of the leash and then just about does a back-flip when it stops her. On a regular leash, any pulling at all and her esophagus will collapse and she makes a horrible wheezing, fighting for breath sound that scares the daylights out of you the first few times you hear it. The vet says this is very common among this type of dog once they're more than a few years old. So we only put her on the regular leash to take her out for a quick pee in the morning and before bed. Any walking gets done with the halti. I never thought about it a lot. It worked - we kept it.

-Ray

[Sandy]

Sandy. Yes. Incorrectly applied collars used by people who don't know the proper method to signal a dog with a collar can damage a dog. Why do you think you can watch a dog go from a pulling crazy beast with an owner to a well behaved model citizen in two steps with a trainer regardless of what method of control the collar uses?
Dogs don't damage themselves, collars don't damage dogs, people damage dogs. And listen to the Jerk on this one. If you don't know how to properly apply a "choke" collar, pick up a pinch collar and have a trainer help you learn to use it. They don't cause "pain" they cause surprise. They work exceptionally well. Suddenly, the world becomes a much less contentious place.

Actually...none of the "approved" control collars are supposed to cause "pain" when properly used. It's the improper use of equipment that causes damage and pain.


On a big dog and barking at the door: Teach him to bark only once or twice to alert you, then move to "his spot" in the house. Why? It's not his job to protect the house, it's yours. (in the pack mentality) It takes a bit of time...but it's certainly worth it.

And on top of that...now you think it's a nice protective feature for your dog to bark like a ravening beast on the other side of the door, but what if it's your friend or relative or a girl scout selling cookies or emergency services you want to let in the door? (I'm sure an ambulance showed up when Gloria fell?) Having a dog who's protecting the door is a pain. An alert dog (no matter what the breed) can be just as protective and intimidating to strangers, if not more, when he's shown to be a trained dog.

My Dalmatian was big, 98lbs, and he was trained to alert me (one to three barks, that was it), then go to a room where he could see what was going on, but was required to sit and wait until he was invited to approach the guest. It is WAY more convenient than having to hold the dog and sign for a package or whatever. It also intimidated people who came to the door.
"I heard a dog?" "Yep, he's right over there...waiting for me to tell him what to do." And having an alert controlled dog waiting for a command is far more intimidating to people than a out of control barker.

You're teaching King hand commands along with voice commands, yes???
Stop, Sit, Stay, Down, Come. Those are the handiest of the hand commands...


You should take King to one of those 8 week group obedience training courses. Given the right trainer (and I would pick a trainer led group so you could talk about your dog before showing up) it's an excellent socialization opportunity for your dog. You too.

Good luck Sandy!

Sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from. First, I do not use a choke collar. I do not use a pinch collar. I used a choke collar over 50 years ago with our German Shepherd Dog. He never got his neck injured. He was an amazingly obedient dog. From my limited knowledge, I totally agree with the Jerk in that a prong collar is vastly better than a choke collar. How did you decude that I do not know how to use a choke collar? I just believe that there are much better choices. I am using a harness for King that attatches in the front and was recommended by a positive reinforcement trainer. I taught King on my own how to walk on a leash and he does very well with it, I believe. I am certainly aware that dog trainers know quite well how to use choke collars or even prong collars, and that the person on the other end of the leash is much more important than the type of collar. Decidedly so.

I absolutely don't get your comment that "it's a nice protective feature for your dog to bark like a ravening beast on the other side of the door,....." We had a tiny Chihuahua at our home several times for a couple of weeks at a time. She would always bark and run to the door if she heard someone. Nice feature I believe. King does the same thing, although he doesn't normally run to the door. I do not allow him to repetitively bark in such a situatrion. I always refocus his attention on something else. He is not a continual barker, not a yapper. He also is not a "ravening beast..." either. Yes, I think that it is a nice feature for a dog to bark and communicate to those inside about someone's presence outside near your home. It is also not a bad idea for someone outside to know that they are approaching a house with a dog inside. King doesn't "protect the door". He lets anyone come in when we answer the door. He goes about what he was doing, often taking a nap or relaxing or looking out the glass sliding door or whatever. When King comes to the door I actually have very good control of him on or off leash. If I tell him to sit and wait he does it. Interestingly, he just heard a loud noise outside. He barked a couple of times and came upstairs almost as if to report it to me. Then he went back down. No drama. No repetitive barking. Two barks.

Back to choke collars- I think that I do know how to properly apply a choke collar. I suimply choose to use a harness attached to the front. Clearly some people are better at handling dogs than others. I do not consider myself as having too much talent in most anything. But if I were to go to the main shelter in the county in which I live, I would probably have absolutely no trouble in walking/handling any of the dogs there and to be quite frank about it, could probably walk/handle them better than almost all if not all staff and/ or volunteers there. That does not give my the ability to train a dog and I am trying to do that with King. I have had 3 private lessons with him thus far- private because I am not sure of how he would interact with other dogs and with kids at this point.

Ginger, please give me some credit. I am no fool when it comes to dogs. No, I am no dog trainer. No, I have never trained a dog, but I was greatly respected at the shelter I volunteered at with how I interacted with the dogs. I walked several thousand dogs and none ever attacked me. I was allowed to walk dogs that almost no one else was allowed to walk except for staff.

Again, I truly appreciate your thoughts and insights. I listen carefully to everything that you say about dogs or anything else. You know that.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I'd love to hear your story about the shep who "stayed" for 3 hours. there some real once in a life time dogs and he sounds like one of them. that's why I'm clear to distinguish the difference between "wait" (preparing meals, answering doors) and "stay."

It comes down to personal preference, but I don't like a dog who patrols or protects my house at all. It's my job to protect my house and my dog(s). Certain dogs (and King sounds like he's only slightly dominant) will become ever increasingly dominant over time if you let them dominate anything. It happens so gradually you don't notice and then gradually spills over into their other routines. If you make the "no patrol" choice, when you leave, he must go into his crate so he doesn't patrol while you are gone. I suspect you are already doing this because you've said he's a chewer.

Speaking of chewing. I have a dog and can destroy anything in minutes. There's no chew toy that's safe. It get those large size bones and the pet store. Ask for the toughest one. I've never seen a dog where it didn't take quite a while to go through those, but I King is a pit and that may be a different story all together. If you have problems with him digging, contact me off line. I've got a sure fire technique to stop the behavior.

I took my German Shepherd Dog to visit my wife to be (first wife- married twice). You could enter her house in basically two ways- Up a flight of steps in the back into the kitchen or around the front into the front door of the house. I entered the back door way. I told King (also the name of my GSD) to sit and stay, at the bottom of the steps. I went inside for a short visit and left via the front door and went home (forgetting about King). I was home for several hours when my mother asked if I knew where King was. I said that I had no idea. We looked for him in the house and in the yard and he was not there. I then realized that I left him down the street at the base of the steps. I ran down there and bingo- He was in a sit stay in the exact place I left him in several hours ago. He was an amazingly wonderful dog.

Unforunately the GSB is not the breed it was before, at least as I see it.

King loves to chew but does not chew on anything unless I give it to him to chew on. He destroys stuffed toys quickly. He had a sign on his cage which said-"No stuffed toys". Another one said- "No dog beds. He eats them". Actually he did not eat them. He slept in them.


Sandy


Sandy

[Sandy]

King came upstairs a few minutes ago. I could sense that he wanted to go out. He had his collar on but not his harness. So I went to get his harness. He approached me knowing that I was going to take him out, but turned around to walk over to the glass sliding door to wait for me and to look out the glass. Sometimes I will just put the harness on by the sliding door. But I thought about what you two and others have been saying, so I put the leash on the collar,led him to the living room, dropped the leash and told him to sit and wait. He knows both commands. He sat patiently and waited for me to put on the harness. I then relased him from his position (am trying to remember to use the word release) and he went to the sliding door and I took him out. I think that making him come into the living room and wait for me was a good idea. I did it because I thought about what you said about control.

Actually, King is a real sweetheart, and is not a dominant pit at all. He is really liked and in some cases loved by those he has interacted with at the rescue shelter and in the main shelter.

Thanks for your advice. Very meaningful to me.


Sandy

[Ginger]

Sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from.
Good.

:)

[Sandy]

Sometimes I don't know where I am going!

Bad

:)


Sandy

[OtayBW]

...Unforunately the GSB is not the breed it was before, at least as I see it....

And this I do not understand....at least based on my own, personal experience with GS dogs.

..with all due respect.

[Sandy]

And this I do not understand....at least based on my own, personal experience with GS dogs.

..with all due respect.

The German Shepherd Dog was and is one of my very favorite dogs. Here is why I said what I said- The GSD is easily one of the most popular dogs in the US and maybe the most popular in the world. Breeders do not want their particular breed to really become popular because often one gets indiscriminate breeding, cross breeding,... Breeders try very carefully to exclude undesirable characteristics in their breed, both physical and behavioral. Lots of other people who breed a certain breed of dog just don't care that much.. Many do it, partially, at least, for money. Lots of GSDs bred. Some good, some not.

I know little about confirmation of breeds. Really almost nothing. But the GSD of today looks so different than the GSD of years ago. The ones in confirmation trials that supposedly conform best to the breed standard (and that is how they are judged) simply do not even look like GSD of the past. The back slopes downward and does not even look stable or strong, per my visual observation. It almost looks as if the dog is made up in two parts. I think that GSDs bred in Germany do not have that look nearly as much.

Please don't get me wrong. I had an incredibly wonderful GSD dog. If I were to choose a breed of dog to adopt, a GSD would be at the top somewhere. I would just be careful of which one.


Sandy