Campy Technical Question

[PBWrench]

I'm currently riding Record double with a 12-25 cassette on a couple of bikes. I'll be doing some riding with semi-serious climbs out West and am considering getting a triple for the occasion. Question -- can I simply swap out cranksets or will I need a different (length) chain as well? Thanks for your help guys!

[Kurt]

cranks, bb and front der. You can also just get a 13/29 or a custom cassette - 29 is pretty low, depending on where in the west you are going. ypu can use a standard rear der with the 29, works great.

[H.Frank Beshear]

I recently switched everything to compact double. I have a 175 9spd triple crank and a braze on racing t fd if you need parts and run 9 speed. Frank

[Russ]

PBW,

Why not get a compact cranset instead of a triple, since you will have to do all kinds of changes, as Kurt has said....

I think The Racer's Edge can locate some cranksets for you. However, I don't know how what's the availability of Record Compact these days.

Regards ;)

[Tom]

I got all intimidated after I signed up for a ride with a fair amount of climbing, I too have the 12-25 normally and the short cage. Went to the shop, asked about a 13-29, and as Clifton the mechanic so laconically said "One accidental shift and you've trashed a $300 derailleur." OK, I said, and took their word somewhat sceptically that a 13-26 would be noticeable.

By golly, it is! The short nasties that go up at 15% or so for a fair bit are not nearly as bad and on a long hill you can take a break by dropping into the 26 and spinning for a little while. The downside is that it takes your top speed off a little because you can't drive the 12 as you go up through and spin out. So what, I remember reading one of those RAAM characters saying that the place to make time is on the uphill because that's where you are longer.

[Serotta PETE]

Suggestion would be to go to an FSA compact instead of triple. FSA site has gear comparisons. I have had good luck in using FSA. PETE

[PBWrench]

Thanks to all for their contributions. Here are the tradeoffs as I see them: I've got two road bikes with Record doubles and 12/25s. One is a Legend with a clamp frt. der, and the other a C40 with a braze-on. If I go the direction of the Campy triple I will not need to change the bb, but would need to choose one of two bikes to take the triple unless I wanted to purchase two new frt. ders to keep my options completely open. If I go the compact route I will need a new ISIS bb to match an FSA (unless I wait until Campy releases their new compact - still with a square taper bb?) for at least one bike, or two if I want a match for both the Serotta threads and the Colnago's Italian threading. Either option has relative limits and I'm happy with the double for my Midwestern riding -- I don't need the compact unless I travel to hilly terrain. The third option is to go big on the cassette which is the cleanest way to go, but would it give me enough low gears for the big hills? Or I could go REALLY big in the cassette and then I would need a long cage rear der, but this could be used on either bike. So what's my best option??? Russ -- enjoy the TFL!

[gasman]

I second (or third) the idea of the compact crank. It has worked well for me and I find the the 50-12 still allows me to ride at 30-32 mph in a paceline. I spin out only on the downhills. My knees are much happier with the lower gearing for the long hills.

[Serotta PETE]

How often are you going to use these big gears/ THat is a question you need tp seriously consider.. THen associate with that how much $$ are you willing to spend.

I have used compact and triples.....they both work. The triple does not shift as quickly but it does work.



With Campy, you need - crank, BB, Front D and R Der. I have had it on my bike for about 5K miles. (Keep in mind I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from a racer) Many places sell the kit. Get the long rear D instead of medium. Probably will work best on Serotta because chain stays, I would think are longer than colnago,


Another step you could take is get the long der and a 29 cassette. (will need chain also). And try to see if that is enough. If it is - you are done.
If you need more - - - then you can get the crank/bb/f der.


It is really a personal choice. All things being equal I like the triple Campy BUT what folks think of me for having a triple do not matter. What matters is the smile I have riding and climbing!!! PETE

[Kurt]

I got all intimidated after I signed up for a ride with a fair amount of climbing, I too have the 12-25 normally and the short cage. Went to the shop, asked about a 13-29, and as Clifton the mechanic so laconically said "One accidental shift and you've trashed a $300 derailleur." OK, I said, and took their word somewhat sceptically that a 13-26 would be noticeable.

By golly, it is! The short nasties that go up at 15% or so for a fair bit are not nearly as bad and on a long hill you can take a break by dropping into the 26 and spinning for a little while. The downside is that it takes your top speed off a little because you can't drive the 12 as you go up through and spin out. So what, I remember reading one of those RAAM characters saying that the place to make time is on the uphill because that's where you are longer.

a standard cage works great with a 29, the longer cages are in part for taking up chain slack when using a small inner-cog

[e-RICHIE]

don't forget...

campagnolo no longer produces a record clamp-on front for
28.6mm tubes. do you know the diameter of your seat tube?
e-RICHIE

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

arrange disorder

[Kurt]

I second (or third) the idea of the compact crank. It has worked well for me and I find the the 50-12 still allows me to ride at 30-32 mph in a paceline. I spin out only on the downhills. My knees are much happier with the lower gearing for the long hills.

You are inhaling a little too much of your own gas. @ that speed a sponsor would pick you up.

[flydhest]

PBWrench,
I'd suggest the rear derailleur and cassette. Get a Centaur medium cage derailleur and a 13-29. The difference between a 12 and a 13 is big, but it also only matters in the low 30s of mph. I spend some time there, but it's usually in conjunction with a sprint with guys who are faster than I am.

My wife and I swap wheels all the time and she has a med. cage derailleur.

With the Centaur derailleur and cassette, you're probably looking at about $200 bucks, all in. A new crankset will be more than that, plus, BB, plus derailleur . . . not worth it, particularly for an infrequent event. Of course, it ain't my dough. The Centaur will work plenty fine and a 29 is a much bigger gear. Before you do anything, look at a gear inch calculator, e.g.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/
A 34x25 is the same as a 39x29, so you won't be getting any better gearing unless you drop below a 34 chainring. Since you usually want to stay around 14 teeth between big and small ring, giving up the 12 for a 13 will be the least of your worries. A triple with a 30x25 would give you a smaller gear than a 39x29, and it would be enough to notice, but it would flatten out the Rockies.

My vote (worth roughly half of what you're paying for it) is the cassette rear der. route.

[va rider]

The cheap way to do it, is just buy the cogs you want to add. Take off the cassette and make sure you keep the Campy spacers in the same order and swap out your cogs.

According to my calculations (and don't trust me), a compact crank with a 34 chain ring on the 25 cassette gives you 36.72 gear inches. a 39 chain ring with a 29 cassette gives virtually the same gear inches, 36.31. So, they equivalent.

Save the dough and just buy the cogs. And, yes the 29 will work with your double.

[flydhest]

Oh, and Kurt is making sense (except for the 30-32 implying pro speed). The bigger cage gets you chain wrap. Campy has short, medium, and long (or is it tall, grande, and vente?) cages. The medium will spool the 29.

Given the gear calculator, I'm not convinced that a 50/34 and 12/25 gives you much difference over a 53/39 and 13/29. Top end on the latter is a bit smaller gear, but not much and the lower end is virtually identical.

Kurt, if he said he could do 30-32 by himself for a half hour, I'd agree with you. Plus, there's no discussion of terrain. On a dead flat course leading up to a sprint, I regularly ride with groups where the speeds are around 30. Of course, it ain't for very long, but it's there. One group's weekend course involves a sprint that's a bit downhill. When I ride with them, I'm happy for a 53x12 or even my 11 sometimes.

[flydhest]

oh, one more thing. Yes it is worth thinking about your chain. This could be one aspect where the compact is cheaper as you could shorten your current chain (if necessary). The 39x29 will almost certainly work with your current chain, but if you accidentally shift into the 53x29 (where you shouldn't be in the first place, but you know this) it could (repeat: could, because I don't know for sure) cause an issue.

[vaxn8r]

You are inhaling a little too much of your own gas. @ that speed a sponsor would pick you up.

It's true. I can vouch for him. That's the Saturday morning ride and with the hotheads it can, and does, get up there. Last springthere was a ride I dropped off the line after about 8 miles of rollers, mostly flat but the slowest speed was 30 and when I came off the boys were going about 35. I limped the last 2 miles to the store by myself where they waited for the rest of us wussies.

Just to give you an example of what we have here: There's a hill here about 1,000 ft up in 3.5 miles, so not real steep, but there's one guy who does it in 11 minutes. Most of the rest of the hotheads do it in 12's and I do it in about 15.

[Kurt]

Oh, and Kurt is making sense (except for the 30-32 implying pro speed). The bigger cage gets you chain wrap. Campy has short, medium, and long (or is it tall, grande, and vente?) cages. The medium will spool the 29.

Given the gear calculator, I'm not convinced that a 50/34 and 12/25 gives you much difference over a 53/39 and 13/29. Top end on the latter is a bit smaller gear, but not much and the lower end is virtually identical.

Kurt, if he said he could do 30-32 by himself for a half hour, I'd agree with you. Plus, there's no discussion of terrain. On a dead flat course leading up to a sprint, I regularly ride with groups where the speeds are around 30. Of course, it ain't for very long, but it's there. One group's weekend course involves a sprint that's a bit downhill. When I ride with them, I'm happy for a 53x12 or even my 11 sometimes.

he said paceline, a paceline does not go downhill @ 30+ and he cannot ride for 30+ alone for very long, even in rotation.

[Germanboxers]

The 11min climb covering 3.5 miles at roughly 5% grade equates to over 450 watts for lightweights and if the guy weighs more than 175 lbs, he'd be cranking out over 500 watts. Very impressive! I'm reasonably strong and at those watts I keel over in about 90 secs!! Even the 12min time still requires ~450watts for a 175lber...I would hate to ride group with those guys at the front! :bike:

[flydhest]

Kurt,

When I said downhill, I didn't mean a real descent, I just meant something where the road tilts down a touch. It doesn't take much to let the speed go up easily. A paceline can and they often do go downhill at or above 30.

One doesn't have to be able to ride at 30 very long single handedly to be able to ride in a pace line at that speed.

However, I share your sentiment that internet speeds and road speeds are sometimes different.

[Marco]

Flydhest:

True enough about the fact that one doesn't need to be able to carry on at 30 mph (or for that matter at any speed) in order to be able to ride in a paceline at that speed. However, I have always understood that the rider on the front (or the pair if it is a double paceline) is working/suffering unaided since they are deriving no benefit from the physics of what is happening behind them. True?

[Kurt]

Kurt,

When I said downhill, I didn't mean a real descent, I just meant something where the road tilts down a touch. It doesn't take much to let the speed go up easily. A paceline can and they often do go downhill at or above 30.

One doesn't have to be able to ride at 30 very long single handedly to be able to ride in a pace line at that speed.

However, I share your sentiment that internet speeds and road speeds are sometimes different.

now that is a good one. All I know is I ride with some of the fastest 1/2's in the nation and they can pull in the front @ 30-32 for 12 miles and not much further. I can do the same pull in confort for that distance @ around 25/6 in perfect conditions. In a previous line, someone said that there lead riders do
1k' of gain in 3.5M in 11-12minutes - hum, I guess that's possible, on our wed ride fastest time up 5.2M with 1K' is 16, 18 more the norm. My time is 22 flat. Folks should take care in their numbers, you never know when you will meet up with someone and have to back the figures with facts.

[musgravecycles]

I've got some thoughts on your campy tripple issues. I'm a custom framebuilder, and work on campy systems alot. I my personal opinion is that it would be far better to go to a compact system then the tripple. With the tripple you would need and new BB, R-Der with Med Cage, New Crankset, and New Ft Der. By switching to the compact you only need crank/bb. The real reason that it is better to gear down in front is that it still allows you to run nice tight ratios in the back, but still have the low end for climbing. By switching to a 13-29 or something similar, you end up having large gaps between the gears. FSA makes a really nice compact crank, but I would look for small rings in the 135mm campy spacing, I know they are out there, cyclocross guys use them all the time. Perhaps check with TA or some other euro ring maker where the cross guys use campy. I hope this helps.

[Larry]

Unless you are in great condition, gear down as much as possible.
If you are doing a steady climb for 5 or 10 miles, you will certainly want low end gears. Plus, if you are climbing in significant altitude..... 6 to 12,000 feet....... you want to take it easy, especially if you have not acclimated to altitude and thin air.

FYI..... in Colorado Springs, just over 6,000 feet....... you have 75% of the oxygen in the air that you would normally have in Dallas, Texas.
Your heart works alot harder in thin air.

Be kind to yourself, and gear down. Your knees will appreciate it.

[vaxn8r]

now that is a good one. All I know is I ride with some of the fastest 1/2's in the nation and they can pull in the front @ 30-32 for 12 miles and not much further. I can do the same pull in confort for that distance @ around 25/6 in perfect conditions. In a previous line, someone said that there lead riders do
1k' of gain in 3.5M in 11-12minutes - hum, I guess that's possible, on our wed ride fastest time up 5.2M with 1K' is 16, 18 more the norm. My time is 22 flat. Folks should take care in their numbers, you never know when you will meet up with someone and have to back the figures with facts.


Kurt, drop it. The course I mentioned is a TT course. It's rider against the clock and it's a formal event, not just guys riding up a hill looking at their computers.

[flydhest]

Kurt,
I think you made my point (and it addresses Marco's question as well). I think. If you meant these guys can pull a line along for 12 miles at 30, then yes indeed, they're freakin' fast. If, instead, you got a group of hammerheads who are leading up to a sprint and you crank it up for the last couple miles and each guy is spending like 5-10 seconds on the front, then I think the group of people capable of it goes up enormously.

I can ride at 32 mph . . . just not by myself, on the flat, without a killer, killer tailwind (I believe technically, it would be called a gale).

[H.Frank Beshear]

is what I would need. :banana: :banana: :D Vax is right , besides you are all faster than me :D Maybe I could take Sandy ;) well.. maybe not. Doesn't matter anyway I get paid to run my mouth ,not my bike. Frank

[Kurt]

Kurt,
I think you made my point (and it addresses Marco's question as well). I think. If you meant these guys can pull a line along for 12 miles at 30, then yes indeed, they're freakin' fast. If, instead, you got a group of hammerheads who are leading up to a sprint and you crank it up for the last couple miles and each guy is spending like 5-10 seconds on the front, then I think the group of people capable of it goes up enormously.

I can ride at 32 mph . . . just not by myself, on the flat, without a killer, killer tailwind (I believe technically, it would be called a gale).

solo pull by a solid cat 1/2 is 12m @ 31/2 flat no wind - thats what I see in socal - makes me tired just thinking about it.

[Dekonick]

Way too fast for me! I admit that I am slower than most of yall...

Who cares anyway? Just ride and enjoy it! :) (I would trash talk if I was even close to being capable of maintaining a real average worthy of posting)

Is 15mph in the hills really that bad? :rolleyes:

[flydhest]

Kurt,

Right, so think about someone who can only hold that for a mile. I can sit in a paceline at that speed, I just couldn't hold it by myself.

Man, do I love pacelines. It's "fast lite." All the speed and a 1/3 less suffering.

[PBWrench]

Fly -- your paceline has highjacked my technical question. Or not -- I assume your central point is that you are able to sustain 31-32 in the small ring of your triple. Or is it on your Vanilla fixie??

[flydhest]

PB,

Whoops, sorry. I stand by my first answer. Get a 13-29 and you're golden. I find looking at gear charts like the one I linked way back on page 1 to be useful in this type of decision. I personally don't like triples. I have not tried the recent editions and hear they are actually quite good, but not for me. I get all the gear range I need from a double. Smaller gears, for me, mean smaller gears, not necessarily more. So my crank on my road bike is a TA so that, should I need it, I can put on 34-48, and I have a 13-29 cassette and a medium derailleur on my 'cross bike that can be swapped to the road bike as well.

I can definitely maintain 31-32 on my fixie and in the small ring . . . of course, I'll have to change to kph from mph, but the number's the same.

[froze]

I'm currently riding Record double with a 12-25 cassette on a couple of bikes. I'll be doing some riding with semi-serious climbs out West and am considering getting a triple for the occasion.

I don't know what kind of shape your in, but I've lived in California for 30+ years and climbed some of the steepest roads there. Up until about 3 years ago I did those climbs with just a 12 speed (heck, back in the early 70's I did that with only a 10 speed), then I replaced the rear 6 speed freewheel to a 7 speed which did not give me any lower gearing just more choices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should not even need a triple unless your going to put loaded touring panners on it or have bad knees.

[davep]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should not even need a triple unless your going to put loaded touring panners on it or have bad knees.

With all respect to Froze, don't listen when people say "that you should not need a triple...". Only you know how strong you are, and triples are not just for people with bad knees or wimps.

I recently faced the same dilema with setting up a bike for a trip to the Alps. I seriously considered a compact double, but ended going with a triple, and on some 12% grades I was very glad I did. I only used my very lowest gear a couple times, but when I needed that lowest gear I was glad it was there. After doing it, could I have done it with a compact double? I think so, but I didn't want to travel all that way on find out I needed a triple.

If you have the triple and don't need it, what do you lose besides a few dollars and a few ounces. If you don't have it and then discover you need it, what are your options half way up a long or steep climb?

Also, you have more options for doubles than a 50/39 with a 12/29 or a compact with a 12/25. You could get a compact (50/34) with a 12/29 and have almost as low a gear as a triple, and then be able to put on a closer ratio when you get home.

[jeffg]

I don't know what kind of shape your in, but I've lived in California for 30+ years and climbed some of the steepest roads there. Up until about 3 years ago I did those climbs with just a 12 speed (heck, back in the early 70's I did that with only a 10 speed), then I replaced the rear 6 speed freewheel to a 7 speed which did not give me any lower gearing just more choices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should not even need a triple unless your going to put loaded touring panners on it or have bad knees.

Again, it all depends on your strength, desired cadence, and terrain. I have found that I am more efficient at cadences of 70-80. I can manage that on many climbs in Northern California; however, just take a 10%+ extended climb (not 1km) and you are faced either with a much lower cadence or compact/triple gearing. Take a rider who, with bike, water bottles, etc. is carrying 180 pounds up a 10.5% grade. To spin 80 rpm @ 300 watts requires a 32.5 inch gear, i.e. a 30X25! Now, drop that to 70 rpm and you get by with a 39X28. So, even a rider who can put out 4 watts/kg can likely profit from such gearing on steep climbs, and I know I am not that strong. Now, if you don't climb hills like these or only hit 1-2 in a ride and don't mind powering through, that's fine. If you are baggin a series of cols, on the other hand, it seems wise not to blow your fast-twitch wad all at once. I still remember a rider on this year's Terrible Two in Santa Rosa telling me before the ride that a 39X27 works fine for him on such rides. Well, over 200 miles and 16,000 feet vertical, he finished a couple hours down on me and my 34X27, so I would guess my gearing works better! ;)

[flydhest]

jeffg,

I agree with you that each should make their own decisions based on riding style, etc. and not on manly arguments about how strong you are (aside: a buddy of mine pointed out that often "stupid" could substitute for "manly," e.g. "I don't need a coat in winter, I'll just be manly" or "I rode the Rockies with 53/42 and an 11-21 cassette to be manly").

Nevertheless, if your goal is low gears, there is no reason a triple is what's needed. As you pointed out, there are many options for a double, including the 48/34 my wife has on her bike and adding a 13-29 cassette, you get a plenty low gear. Heck, you could make the smaller ring smaller. Triple does not necessarily imply a lower gear.

[davep]

I believe, though I could be wrong, that a 33 is the smallest that can be used on a 110mm BCD crank. Is there such a thing as a mountain bike double with a 94 BCD that could take a smaller ring?

[flydhest]

davep,

you might be right. In any event, a 34/29 is waaay small. I would agree, though, as I said above, individual needs should determine gear choice.

Well, that and if the babe's will dig it.

[froze]

With all respect to Froze, don't listen when people say "that you should not need a triple...". Only you know how strong you are, and triples are not just for people with bad knees or wimps.

I would appreciate it if you don't put words in statements that were not there; I never indicated anywhere that triples were for wimps nor did I use that word. BPWrench said he was considering triples, and I suggested that he shouldn't have to use them unless he has bad knees or carrying loaded panniers, that's not a wimp, that simply means some people have bad knees might need the lower gearing or they may be carrying heavy loads and are going to need the lower gearing-that's all it means. And by saying I didn't know what kind of shape he's in is not calling him a wimp either; if he's only been riding for a week or rides on and off he may want the extra gear, that's not what I call a wimp, just someone who's not use to riding a lot and thus may need the help of a lower gear.

[PBWrench]

Froze -- no offense taken. I'm in pretty good shape, am a decent climber and have no need for gears lower than 12/25 on a 39/53 in my normal riding habitats. I won't know how much I need lower gears with steep consistent climbs until I'm there, so I wanted to be prepared. Thanks to all for your input!