Wheels: Listing weight limits. Is it too much to ask?

[William]

I find it frustrating that the majority of wheel manufactures aren't listing weight limits on their wheels. Nimble is one of the few who do. And as a clydesdale who has destroyed a good majority of rear wheels, it kind of ticks me off. I've contacted the tech departments for some mfr.'s to be told "oh yeah, our wheels can handle you"...only to find out later....uh, no the couldn't. I've had better luck with hand made wheels and that's the way I've gone in recent years. But every so often I see new products out there that I wouldn't mind trying out, but I'm reluctant due to past experience.


Just BIG GUY ranting. Sorry.



William



PS: Ergott, I'm ready.

[rphetteplace]

Big boys get no love.

ps. Ergott made me a set of wheels last year and I haven't had to touch them. I love them.

[Erik.Lazdins]

I agree with the post but don't think there would be a standard.

I have a friend who weighs 225 and hit a big pothole while riding neutrons - they were fine
I bought campy wheels the next week. have never had a problem.

Campy wheels are rated to 180 "otherwise the risking serious injury or death disclaimer" I think other manufacturers would list the neutron as having no limit.

Reminds me of how properly designed and well built 50 watt amplifier can wipe the floor with any number of mid-fi amplifiers that have 5x the power.

That said - I still plan to do some handbuilts soon.

How is the Zank? :beer:

[SWorks4me]

I have seen some Clydesdale's who can finesse a bike better than a flyweight...no legal dept is going to sanction weight limits above the "norm" of 180.

We all ride different no matter what weight we are.

Whatever wheel you are interested in, i am SURE that one of the wheel gurus on here can match it and exceed it.


same ol' same ol' blah blah blah blah...

[William]

Hey Erik. The Zank is doing great. The best $$$ I've ever plunked down on a ride. :beer:

I average a lean 255 - 260 and I'm a smooth rider for someone my size. The problems generally comes when I lay down the power (sproink, plunk, pop pling!!!). Of course many of the roads I ride on play a part too. RI isn't know for it's silky smooth pavement. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned, the hand builts are what I've had the best luck with.

Just a BIG GUY rant that the MFR's don't think of us folks outside the Bell Curve.




William

[ergott]

My wheels are custom for a reason. You tell me what you weigh and you'll get a set that works for you. Factory wheels are designed for the middle of the bell curve in weight, conditions, and power. If you are a hulk on the bike there aren't as many choices out there. You are best to get some anecdotal reports from similar riders rather than asking someone who sells the product. Of course you will be fine by them;-)

[William]

My wheels are custom for a reason. You tell me what you weigh and you'll get a set that works for you. Factory wheels are designed for the middle of the bell curve in weight, conditions, and power. If you are a hulk on the bike there aren't as many choices out there. You are best to get some anecdotal reports from similar riders rather than asking someone who sells the product. Of course you will be fine by them;-)

PiM me. I lost your addy.



William

[WadePatton]

It depends so much on style and power and terrain. If I were I clyde, and was hard on wheels, I'd be buying DH or tandem rated hoops with a decent spoke count--no less than 32.

The best parts are those you don't ever have to think about while on the trail. Durability is king. Form is function.

Give Troy a holler and tell him I sent you. http://www.ligerowheels.com/

[Blue Jays]

Erik.Lazdins, if my memory is correct, I believe Campagnolo has minor "cautionary" language about riders approaching 180 pounds, but I don't believe they have line-in-the-sand restrictions. I believe Campagnolo will warranty all their wheels regardless of rider weight.

[William]

It depends so much on style and power and terrain. If I were I clyde, and was hard on wheels, I'd be buying DH or tandem rated hoops with a decent spoke count--no less than 32.

The best parts are those you don't ever have to think about while on the trail. Durability is king. Form is function.

Give Troy a holler and tell him I sent you. http://www.ligerowheels.com/


I tried tandems before. Either 32 or 36 spoke (don't remember). Didn't cut it.



William

[handsomerob]

I agree with the post but don't think there would be a standard.

I have a friend who weighs 225 and hit a big pothole while riding neutrons - they were fine
I bought campy wheels the next week. have never had a problem.

Campy wheels are rated to 180 "otherwise the risking serious injury or death disclaimer" I think other manufacturers would list the neutron as having no limit.....

The owner of a local bike shop hit a nasty hole and endo'd breaking a collarbone. He was riding Neutrons and he was amazed they didn't break.

I have heard nothing but praise for Neutrons. I have a set of Zondas that I ride almost all the time and they are still true with over 4000 miles on them. This would include plenty of bumps in the road and bunny hops over train tracks... I fluctuate between 185 to 210.

If you don't go handbuilt, Campy does make some very durable wheels.

[Pete Serotta]

Lightness sells - - - That is the plain fact. Also (and I am definitely not the guru here) as things get lighter and thinner they have less forgiveness for stress. Stress can be the result of weight, road condition, riding style, or just miles of riding.

Over the past 60 days I and a friend have each broken a spoke on our Mavic K wheels. The old MAVIC Krysiums, for over 7 years - resulted in no breakes. The ESs I have broke in 2k miles over same roades.

. Mavic like everyone has chased the "light" wheel is all I can figure.

I have a set of JOE YOUNG wheels that are about as light and no problems..... he builds a wonderful product. E-Richie, thanks for the recommendation. PETE


I find it frustrating that the majority of wheel manufactures aren't listing weight limits on their wheels. Nimble is one of the few who do. And as a clydesdale who has destroyed a good majority of rear wheels, it kind of ticks me off. I've contacted the tech departments for some mfr.'s to be told "oh yeah, our wheels can handle you"...only to find out later....uh, no the couldn't. I've had better luck with hand made wheels and that's the way I've gone in recent years. But every so often I see new products out there that I wouldn't mind trying out, but I'm reluctant due to past experience.


Just BIG GUY ranting. Sorry.



William



PS: Ergott, I'm ready.

[vaxn8r]

You might want to talk to the boys at Rolf. I have a set of their tandem wheels. My wife and I weigh a ton more than you do and we ride hard and out of the saddle. No problemo. Oh and they weigh about 1,800g.

ps they are fast too.

Yeah, I drank the Kool Aid. What can I say?

[Tobias]

I tried tandems before. Either 32 or 36 spoke (don't remember). Didn't cut it.I'm sure you've seen 16-spoke tandem wheels, but a direct comparison is not valid. Much of the extra strength in these wheels comes from the extra axle spacing, and unless you have a custom bike made with 145 or 160 MM rear, true tandem stength is not achieved.

Although I personally wouldn't ride a tandem with 16-spoke wheels, some do successfully, so strength/durability involves much more than spoke count.

[vaxn8r]

I'm sure you've seen 16-spoke tandem wheels, but a direct comparison is not valid. Much of the extra strength in these wheels comes from the extra axle spacing, and unless you have a custom bike made with 145 or 160 MM rear, true tandem stength is not achieved.

Although I personally wouldn't ride a tandem with 16-spoke wheels, some do successfully, so strength/durability involves much more than spoke count.
Tobias is correct. However, paired spokes even out wheel tensions better than alternating spokes so you can use fewer spokes to build a comparably stiff wheel.

My tandem wheels are 20/24 spokers. Any less would be OK for an ultra light team who expects to go through wheelsets frequently. Co-Motion builds a 24 lb tandem too. Not my cup o tea but if I my wife and I weighed 250 together...well, probably not even then. I like to go fast but I don't want to buy a new tandem every few years either.

Ultimately that's what you have to decide. What's your balance, how often do you want to build new wheels? 40 spoke touring wheels will ride like crap but last for years.

[WadePatton]

whoops, I had my boards crossed with the DH reference. :banana: But my original thoughts were as rider mass goes up, so must the mass of his components--if he wants to ride and not spend all his time broken and fixing.

I'm either smooth or un-powerful. I don't break stuff. :bike:

[Ahneida Ride]

I dare ya to break these rims ... :rolleyes:

Mavic CXP 36 by 4 cross mated to White Ind. Racer X Mtn Bike hubs.
Straight 14 gauge SS spokes with Brass nipples.

Ok ... so they are not light, but one can hop NYC curbs with them.

They are Uncle William proof. ;)

[catulle]

After trying all combinations of custom and factory wheels for the back of his tandem, my friend Jim finally found solace with the one on the pic.

[William]

After trying all combinations of custom and factory wheels for the back of his tandem, my friend Jim finally found solace with the one on the pic.

Looks like an old Aerospoke. I have one of those....and I knocked it out of true. Ok, only very slightly. Actually not a bad wheel once you get it up to speed. Not great for hilly courses though. Heavy.


William

[catulle]

Looks like an old Aerospoke. I have one of those....and I knocked it out of true. Ok, only very slightly. Actually not a bad wheel once you get it up to speed. Not great for hilly courses though. Heavy.


William

Aren't there some modern ones similar to those? EDO, or something? I'll look it up.

[BURCH]

I always had issues with wheels until I got a pair of Mavic CXP33. Love them and they barely have gone out of true for me. They were hand laced...

[catulle]

HED-3 in aluminum = 1850g (pair of clinchers); 1500g in carbon.

[Tobias]

However, paired spokes even out wheel tensions better than alternating spokes so you can use fewer spokes to build a comparably stiff wheel.Agreed. If I kept breaking rear wheels I'd have a pro build me a 36-spoke with 24/12 pattern; or else buy a different bike that better suited the roads I was riding.

I can't tolerate stuff that breaks. Takes all the fun out of riding for me.

[WadePatton]

Mebbe something like Craig Calfee cooked up. Bamboo reinforcements--good for 640 pounds and bumps. Covered in seminar. Can't find any web shots of the wheel...

Nine bamboo "spokes" epoxied to hub and hoop radially.

Easy. :cool:

beware the panda.

[Tobias]

I'm either smooth or un-powerful. I don't break stuff. :bike:I'd bet on smooth, light, or good roads. Power isn't as important as most think IMHO.

[weiwentg]

. Mavic like everyone has chased the "light" wheel is all I can figure.

PETE

isn't it ironic, then, that Mavic is almost always over their claimed weights.

[Ligero]

I find it frustrating that the majority of wheel manufactures aren't listing weight limits on their wheels.

While working for a large wheel manufacture I asked why we did not put weight limits on our wheels when I felt that know one over 175lbs should be on them, this is what I was told. If they put a weight limit on the product and fails under a lightweight rider they can say they do no not know why it failed because it was clearly designed with no weight limit same with a heavy rider. If they put a weight limit on it and it fails on someone less then the limit they open themselves up to suit because there must have been something clearly wrong with the product to fail. Where if there is no weight limit and it fails they can have reasonable doubt that you must have done something to break it because the product was designed with no weight limit.

It didn't make any sense to me but I just build the wheels and I am not a lawyer.

Tobias is correct. However, paired spokes even out wheel tensions better than alternating spokes so you can use fewer spokes to build a comparably stiff wheel.

Paired spokes do nothing to balance tensions. Paired spokes are a way to build very low spoke count wheels without the side to side oscillation that occurs in sub 16 spoke wheels.

[gt6267a]

for a manufacturer to put a weight limit on the wheels, i imagine they would have to do significant failure testing. that or a great deal of engineering which they probably don't do. maybe they should, but i am guessing they don't. without the engineering / testing, i question the value of the number. not saying ligero or some other wheel builder doesn't have a good idea of a max weight, but to publish a number ... a good idea doesn't cut it. i also imagine that the majority of their client base is quite far from the expected failure rate so they would be spending a ton of cash on < 10% of their usership. seems like a no reward situation for them. i like the idea of a max weight but imagine its not coming any time soon.

[shinomaster]

The owner of a local bike shop hit a nasty hole and endo'd breaking a collarbone. He was riding Neutrons and he was amazed they didn't break.

I have heard nothing but praise for Neutrons. I have a set of Zondas that I ride almost all the time and they are still true with over 4000 miles on them. This would include plenty of bumps in the road and bunny hops over train tracks... I fluctuate between 185 to 210.

If you don't go handbuilt, Campy does make some very durable wheels.


Zondas are built like a brick**** house.

[Tobias]

Paired spokes do nothing to balance tensions. Paired spokes are a way to build very low spoke count wheels without the side to side oscillation that occurs in sub 16 spoke wheels.Perhaps on an unloaded wheel sitting on a bench, but don’t you think that pairing even at 16 spokes reduces maximum tension loads as the wheel rotates with a lateral load placed on the tire?

[Ligero]

Perhaps on an unloaded wheel sitting on a bench, but don’t you think that pairing even at 16 spokes reduces maximum tension loads as the wheel rotates with a lateral load placed on the tire?

No I don't think that it does, why do you think that it reduces lateral loads? Are you talking about lateral loads from cornering or the side loads put on the rim by the widely placed spokes?

[Tobias]

Are you talking about lateral loads from cornering or the side loads put on the rim by the widely placed spokes?I'm talking about external loads. Cornering is one. Also leaning the bike, etc...

Granted differences are small, but it seems pairing should have a slight advantage because rims are not perfectly stiff.

[vaxn8r]

...Paired spokes do nothing to balance tensions. Paired spokes are a way to build very low spoke count wheels without the side to side oscillation that occurs in sub 16 spoke wheels.
Thanks for the correction. What you wrote makes sense. I've ridden 28 spoke wheels that developed those bulges at the spoke heads making braking not very fun. OK, GEL 280's...crappy set of wheels.

But can you not use a lighter rim with paired spokes than would be possible without paired spokes?

[steelrider]

I agree with the post but don't think there would be a standard.

I have a friend who weighs 225 and hit a big pothole while riding neutrons - they were fine
I bought campy wheels the next week. have never had a problem.

Campy wheels are rated to 180 "otherwise the risking serious injury or death disclaimer" I think other manufacturers would list the neutron as having no limit.

Reminds me of how properly designed and well built 50 watt amplifier can wipe the floor with any number of mid-fi amplifiers that have 5x the power.

That said - I still plan to do some handbuilts soon.

How is the Zank? :beer:

+1 on the Neutrons. I am currently a portly 212 thanks to firehouse food and the "seefood diet." My Neutrons are bomber and that speaks volumes here in SF where the streets are third-world quality.

[Ligero]

I'm talking about external loads. Cornering is one. Also leaning the bike, etc...

Granted differences are small, but it seems pairing should have a slight advantage because rims are not perfectly stiff.

Assuming that is correct wouldn't that mean that the spokes would be stressed higher if a lateral load is put on the wheel at a point where there are no spokes, like in between paired point, because the spokes are father away from the load point. Since the wheel is turning the load point would always be changing.

Thanks for the correction. What you wrote makes sense. I've ridden 28 spoke wheels that developed those bulges at the spoke heads making braking not very fun. OK, GEL 280's...crappy set of wheels.

But can you not use a lighter rim with paired spokes than would be possible without paired spokes?

Yes, in low spoke count wheels you can use a lighter weight rim. The old Campy Shamal is a good example. The old Shamal wheels were all 16 spokes and some were 12 and 14 spokes. In order to keep the rim from developing a side to side wave the rim had to be made very stiff which also made it very heavy. I have a old Shamal rim here and it is 610g. If they wanted to use a lighter weight rim they would need to keep the rim from being pulled to the side at points so far away from each other. The way to do that is to bring the spokes closer to each other and then you get paired spokes. The problem after pairing the spokes is the rim starts to "cloverleaf" from the spokes pulling at grouped points at the rim instead of evenly spread points.

[bigbill]

My dirty PNW commuter is currently leaning up against my desk. It has Specialized Roval Classique Pave wheels that have low spoke count but large flange hubs. They are designed for cyclecross and have supported me (225) and my rack/fendered Gunnar for almost three years now.

I have a set of Joe Young wheels that I will start using this spring built up with PW hubs, Velocity deep V, and 36 supercomp spoked. I rode them a few times in Italy and they were smooth. I would have to swap tires to commute on them this time of year.

For regular handbuilt wheels with open pro or CPX33 rims, I am a diesel so I don't stress my wheels that much. In 2005 I had a chorus rear hub flange break during a time trial. I thought that I had broken a spoke by the way it felt so I released the brake and kept going. Two spoke heads just hanging out in space with no flange around them. I have pictures somewhere.

[Tobias]

Assuming that is correct wouldn't that mean that the spokes would be stressed higher if a lateral load is put on the wheel at a point where there are no spokes, like in between paired point, because the spokes are father away from the load point.I expect the very opposite because the rims flex some -- nothing is perfectly rigid. In a traditional low-spoke-count wheel (like 16 spokes) I expect the highest load to be when the spoke in highest tension is at the bottom.

Since the wheel is turning the load point would always be changing.Exactly. Should affect standard wheel a little more.
A lot depends on relative rim and spoke stiffness.

[ergott]

With low spoke counts, it's moot point because the rim should be significantly stiff at that count so the spokes share lateral loading better. If the rim is stiff enough to be a good wheel at that spoke count (laterally stiff rim), the paired spoking isn't necessary. I've still yet to see any real advantage of paired spoking other than marketing.

[jonathanirwin]

William, I feel your pain. I weigh 225lbs, and I'm tired of the 150lbs guys telling me I need to ride 36 hole CXP33s. I'm a big rider, but it sucks that I'm relegated to (frankly) lame wheels. I know this'll start a firestorm, but IMHO I can't get excited about "traditional" wheels. I've ridden 36 hole, hand-built, CXP33's...boring. I sold them. I have a set of Mavic 32 hole, DT-Swiss hub trainers...they will outlive me, but they don't have the feel of nice wheels.

I've blown 3 Ksyrium rims, but they felt great, so I kept replacing them.

Now I've been riding my Bontrager XXX light, carbon clinchers as my daily wheels (NO WEIGHT LIMIT!) for almost 2 years with no issues. No truing, no maintenance. Bombproof, and 1350grams for the set.

I'll say it straight up. I'm vain, and I'm not willing to ride boring wheels :banana:

[William]

William, I feel your pain. I weigh 225lbs, and I'm tired of the 150lbs guys telling me I need to ride 36 hole CXP33s. I'm a big rider, but it sucks that I'm relegated to (frankly) lame wheels. I know this'll start a firestorm, but IMHO I can't get excited about "traditional" wheels. I've ridden 36 hole, hand-built, CXP33's...boring. I sold them. I have a set of Mavic 32 hole, DT-Swiss hub trainers...they will outlive me, but they don't have the feel of nice wheels.

I've blown 3 Ksyrium rims, but they felt great, so I kept replacing them.

Now I've been riding my Bontrager XXX light, carbon clinchers as my daily wheels (NO WEIGHT LIMIT!) for almost 2 years with no issues. No truing, no maintenance. Bombproof, and 1350grams for the set.

I'll say it straight up. I'm vain, and I'm not willing to ride boring wheels :banana:



Have to agree with you a bit there. I would like to be able to use some of the "bling" wheels when they come along. But, as Clint and Bruce K. say: "A man's got to know his limitations". :D



William

[Clydesdale]

I have been on Ksyrium elites for 2 years and haven't even had to tweak them... including one bridge incident that made me stop and check my fork, stem and HT. Before that two years on 28 spoke King hubs and Ritchey OCR rims by colorado cyclist and the front was radial laced which King says not to do. One broken spoke in thousands of miles on the rear hub and almost never had to true them. I'm 230 and the roads I ride have lots of cracks and rough spots.

You guys must be monsters. :banana:

[mike p]

I think the reason some don't publish weight is that weight is only one factor in many. It will cause some to pick a set of wheels because they have a ck list they go down (weight,spoke count, rim depth,etc.etc.) and which ever wheel gets the most things ck'ed off wins. This method may or may not work, carbones seem to be a fav. wheel and they are quite heavy compared to many. Same reason some frame makers don't publish weights, many factors come together to make a great bike. All your boxes can be ck'ed and you still may not have a great riding bike.

Mike

[zap]

snipped

Now I've been riding my Bontrager XXX light, carbon clinchers as my daily wheels (NO WEIGHT LIMIT!) for almost 2 years with no issues. No truing, no maintenance. Bombproof, and 1350grams for the set.

I'll say it straight up. I'm vain, and I'm not willing to ride boring wheels :banana:

I have the xxx tubular version and these wheels are damn good. Maybe the best all round road wheels I've owned to date.

Would they hold up for william? make friends with the local trek rep and take a set out for a real hard spin.

[bfd]

I've blown 3 Ksyrium rims, but they felt great, so I kept replacing them.



Wow, I've heard Ksyrium rims are expensive to replace, is that true? I know replacement rims for Campy boutiques are expensive (over $100 each!). Do you also replace the proprietary spokes? If so, how much? :butt:

Or, are you just throwing out the wheel and "replacing" it with a new one? Thanks.

[jonathanirwin]

Mavic charges $250 for a new rim, and all new spokes. The only thing they'll reuse, for liability sake, is the hub. Bought the wheels new (gray market) for $750, and replaced the rear 3 times (about once a year) until I just couldn't stomach it anymore. All said, they cost me $1500. But I sold them on eBay (fresh back from a repair & basically new) for $500.

[bfd]

Mavic charges $250 for a new rim, and all new spokes. The only thing they'll reuse, for liability sake, is the hub. Bought the wheels new (gray market) for $750, and replaced the rear 3 times (about once a year) until I just couldn't stomach it anymore. All said, they cost me $1500. But I sold them on eBay (fresh back from a repair & basically new) for $500.

Thanks. That's my main peeve with boutique wheels, the cost of replacement rims and spokes. I don't crash or break spokes too often, but things happen, and when it cost over $100 to replace the rim or like $5 each for spokes, that's not right.

Similarly, another reason I like standard db spokes like DT or Wheelsmith is that if you do break one, any bikeshopusa should have a replacement and can do it on the spot for like a $1 or 2 per spoke (and that includes labor). :beer:

A nice wheelset hand built with Campy or Dura hubs, DT or Wheelsmith db spokes and a nice rim just seems right. Thanks!