How will this track frame handle?

[keno]

This is a pursuit/TT track frame. I'm 6', 36" inseam, 35" arms. I'm looking for any track-wise input as to handling, acceleration. It's a very stiff frame. Forget road bike experience.

TT-570mm

ST-485mm (BB center to TT center)
640mm (BB center to ST top)

CS-365mm

HT-120mm

HTA-74 degrees

STA-74 degrees

BB Drop-50mm

Fork Rake-43mm

Wheelbase - 975mm

This is strictly for pursuit/TT at the velodrome.

Thanks,

keno

[e-RICHIE]

that is an extremely high cog for a pursuit bicycle atmo.

[Snuffleupagus]

It's got a steep head tube, and a fairly short rake fork. I'm not a frame builder, but I think it'd be a less than optimal platform for a TT rig - it's gonna be sort of twitchy.

I'd guess the frame was intended for mass start track events where quick handling is a priority.

[RudAwkning]

Wow. 5 drop on the BB. Watch out for nosebleeds with the high altitude!

[keno]

this is a Garneau 9.0 Pursuit track frame, and susposedly designed for that purpose. I want a solid handling bike above all. I'll have enough problems without twitchiness.

keno

[11.4]

This is a pursuit/TT track frame. I'm 6', 36" inseam, 35" arms. I'm looking for any track-wise input as to handling, acceleration. It's a very stiff frame. Forget road bike experience.

TT-570mm

ST-485mm (BB center to TT center)
640mm (BB center to ST top)

CS-365mm

HT-120mm

HTA-74 degrees

STA-74 degrees

BB Drop-50mm

Fork Rake-43mm

Wheelbase - 975mm

This is strictly for pursuit/TT at the velodrome.

Thanks,

keno

Garneau made an attempt to incorporate a number of trends in pursuit frames and in track frames in general. Overall, I got to try one out briefly and it was good in spec but not the greatest bike in the world. Specifically:

1. The 50 mm drop is quite common these days. The major rationale is aerodynamics: If your bottom bracket is hanging down lower than the chainstays, it's just a sizeable piece of wind resistance and being right in back of the front wheel means it's facing increased effective wind from what's kicked up by the front wheel. So getting the bottom bracket up high has a perceptible difference in aerodynamics. If you're going 35 mph or faster, that is.

2. The short head tube is to accommodate aero bars. Many riders have problems getting the bars low enough (hence the tiny head tubes on BT Cyclone frames, for example, which many pursuiters still prefer over the Stealth), so Garneau worked to compensate for this. The drawback is that it makes the frame a dedicated aero bar frame, and unless you bring a second frame to workouts, you can't do anything but aero bar positioning or your position isn't likely to work.

3. The tall seat tube mast is mostly just a fad these days, but the idea is to keep the seat tube behind the bars for aerodynamics, plus that's where your top tube will pencil out anyway with the shortened head tube.

4. Angles are middle of the road -- not many current track bikes are being made with the extreme angles of the '70s. Both my old Look KG496 and my current BT Stealth have 74/74 or 74/73 angles, and most top track framebuilders stay within the 73-75 degree range for both seat and head tubes. Do note that when using aero bars you have to be positioned quite accurately for your personal level of flexibility. If you are even slightly overextended in your hip flexors, your power bleeds off extremely rapidly. I have seen a number of riders where from their ideal fore-aft position they bleed off 15-30 watts for each centimeter of adjustment. And since hip flexibility changes during the season, you have to be able to readjust this.

As for the frame itself, it's perhaps an OK pursuit frame, but mostly it's built for style. I wouldn't see it so much as a 500m or 1k bike -- it does tend to flex enough to actually wobble in a high-powered start (well, it did for me at a puny 1,340 watts, which is probably why you don't see many 2,000+ watt uci time trialists using it). I had trouble in starts with it because it tended to flex and cause you to veer -- it startles you and keeps you from putting out maximum power. It also handles a shallow track pretty well (which also means it's at a lower speed) but on steeper tracks tended to drift pretty badly. And while it felt good up to about 25 mph, by 34-35 mph it was a bit rocky -- that's a common transition point where bikes like the BT and Look really smooth out while other frames lose stability. Bike designers target their frames for their intended audience -- if you are capable of riding the higher speeds the world cup bikes like the BT and Look do really well for you and are tuned really well. The Garneau is more of a bike for those who ride in the 25-30 mph range, which is most of the market and especially the market for shallower tracks. Do note that a track frame has an optimum stable performance point, determined by speed and track radius and influenced by rider weight, whether it'll be ridden up the bankings (at which point banking angle counts as well), etc. However you can't take a frame designed for a shallow slow track and make it go as fast as a properly optimized design on a steep fast track without fighting the steering, scuffing speed, and missing your maximum speed -- it's simple physics. Nor do you want to ride a truly high-end high-speed bike like a Look if you're only riding 25 mph on a shallow track. As a result, your question about this frame can't be fully answered without your determining the speed range and the track dimensions you will be dealing with, plus you should try to consider it a dedicated aero-bar bike which may not be acceptable to you. Plenty of bikes out there can accommodate aero bars as well as regular road or track drops, which should be a consideration. Some riders can't get to their optimal position with both bars on one bike, but you should pick the frame at that point that gets you where you need to be, not pick the frame up front and then try to fit it to your needs. Hope this makes sense.

[keno]

thanks for the great information.

To fill in what I take to be the key missing determinants you mention, here are a few more facts. I will be in the 25-30 mph range, perhaps slightly over if all goes better than real well in my trianing. In my age category, 65+, average speed for the 2K in the high 20s would win lots if not everything. The track is Trexlertown, which is a slow track with banking shallow relative to many others. You are probably much more familiar with than I am even though I went through two Air Products programs and spent many hours on the track.

What off-the-shelf reasonably priced frames (including size, understanding that you've never seen me on a bike or otherwise) would you recommend given this new information?

Thanks very much,

keno

[swoop]

thanks for the great information.

To fill in what I take to be the key missing determinants you mention, here are a few more facts. I will be in the 25-30 mph range, perhaps slightly over if all goes better than real well in my trianing. In my age category, 65+, average speed for the 2K in the high 20s would win lots if not everything. The track is Trexlertown, which is a slow track with banking shallow relative to many others. You are probably much more familiar with than I am even though I went through two Air Products programs and spent many hours on the track.

What off-the-shelf reasonably priced frames (including size, understanding that you've never seen me on a bike or otherwise) would you recommend given this new information?

Thanks very much,

keno


why go off the shelf? have aram at predator build you a custom superbike on the cheap out of aluminum....
http://www.predatorcycling.com/

my old teammate antony won masters words kilo on one a few years ago...

[11.4]

I'm a Masters racer as well, so I understand what you're dealing with. And I raced at T-town for several years and still am back there a few times a year.

On that track and those speeds, you might consider several different alternatives:

1. A steel frame from Tom Kellogg. He knows how to tune a bike for T-town better than anyone else, having raced and built bikes in the vicinity for so long. You'll likely get better times off his frames because of their handling than from a zooty carbon frame.

2. For pursuit, the CSK (from Siegler Imports) is relatively inexpensive but actually a pretty nice aero bike. It's designed to give a low position with aero bars and is made in aluminum so it's quite stiff yet light. Take the money you save and put it into some good wheels -- on that track a pair of Zipp 808 track wheels or (even better) a pair of custom wheels built with Reynolds SDV 66 mm rims or Edge 68 mm rims works really well.

3. BT has an aluminum frame that several of the Aussies have been very impressed by. It's on their website and is one of the more sophisticated aero designs out there.

4. If you want a light and more bling frame, consider the Pinarello carbon track frame. It's pretty nice and seeing a lot of action in world cup events as well.

5. Get Nick Crumpton to make a custom track frame for you. Nick has raced track and understands what you need. He isn't going to be trendy about geometry, but for your events you need stability and speed more than agility, just so the bike doesn't get in your way. He can make a very nice bike for this purpose.

6. There's also the Teschner carbon and the new Dolan (the old Dolan was the same as the Teschner, the new one is something different). The Teschner has a proprietary teardrop shaped seatpost that has to be extended sufficiently (it tapers in at the top so the seatpost clamp won't grab it properly) but that shouldn't be a problem in your size. It does tend to have a short top tube compared to some other bikes out there. The new Dolan is evolved a bit from there, but hasn't been ridden enough yet to know just how it rides (I haven't ridden one yet). I can't say the Teschner is the prettiest piece of carbon out there, but it's quite stiff and most riders on it really like it.

7. With the geometry you are aiming for, and given your preferred events, you might look for a used Corima Cougar. It has a very long wheelbase which makes it track really well at T-town. They are made ideally for riding with aero bars and while not particularly trendy, it gives a very good performance at your events.

8. Last, and generally with regard to all of the above, I'd try to ride a variety of frames. I know one superb time trialist on the track who loves a Specialized carbon track frame -- it fits him really well and is long and low enough to use aero bars properly with.

If I were choosing among all of these, given what you've described above, I'd honestly get a Kellogg steel Spectrum. It's an all-around bike and doesn't throw any curves at you. And Tom will tune it for Trexlertown better than anyone else. Then get a pair of nice wheels and a nice aero helmet. Those will give you the speed advantage better than anything on the frame.

[keno]

thanks for taking the time to provide such a full reply. I will look into your suggestions. Ideally, as you suggest, it would be best to ride various bikes before buying. There isn't a ready source to do that, or, hopefully, I just haven't found it yet. I'll send you a PM with some other aspects of what I've come up with.

Thanks, again,

keno

[97CSI]

Too bad that it is the wrong time of year, as T-Town has several open track days hosted by various bike clubs in the spring/summer. That would provide an opportunity for you to see and, perhaps, ride a few different bikes.

As I mentioned to you, Harry Havnoonian has built many track bikes for T-Town and has a good rep for everything except expeditious delivery. He generally has a fair number of frames hanging around, so you might give him a call. Perhaps start used while Spectrum or HHR builds you what you want.

[keno]

I did look at the bikes you suggested and they are way beyond what I'm willing to commit to this project.

I did speak with Harry, and there are two remote possibilities for in-stock frames. Oddly, I think, he told me that someone who works for or with him may have sold all of their frame inventory to another shop, as HH is reorganizing his shop. He didn't even know if a deal had been made. His custom frames will take longer than I've got. TK is very busy and couldn't produce much for me until fall, at best.

I like your suggestion on open track days. Also, there is the swap meet in the spring. As of now, the folks at the velo haven't got a schedule. If you look at their website, I don't even think that 2008 appears at all. I'll touch base with Erin and Marty for leads. I have a solid lead on a used Spectrum that is being held for me to try in April when the track opens. Beyond that, nuthin at this point.

keno

[97CSI]

If you haven't been to the swap meet before, then you will want to arrive early (like an hour before it opens) and once you get in you will need to 'run' from seller to seller, as most of the folks there know what they want and the good stuff goes quickly. Have no idea about track bikes.

Talking with Marty and others at the velo is probably the best route. Have you tried a WTB: listing in the classifieds here?

[97CSI]

If you haven't found you track bike as of yet, I just got back from Harry's for my second design fit and Harry tells me that he will be finished with my bike in about two months. I am in no hurry, if you wish to contact Harry and get your track bike in in front of me.