Rigi Headtube: How's this possible?

[dannyg1]

Last year, I bought a Rigi stainless bicycle sight unseen because it was my size and the price was reasonably sane (not cheap though). Long story short, it's been the victim of front end trauma and a subsequent but poor repair (Not sanctioned by me!), I need to have it repaired.

In speaking with a knowledgeable builder about what could be done, it seems that one cannot fillet braze a stainless frame and have a polished joint that isn't discolored and examples of fillet brazed stainless I see around are always painted.

Example here, toward page bottom: www.daveyatescycles.co.uk

The Rigi though, is both fillet brazed stainless and polished at the headtube. See attached photo from speedbicycles.ch

This got me thinking of thing I've seen that are similar and the Alex Singer headtube/lug combo seems to be the closest thing. See second attached photo.

Does anyone here know how the Rigi was originally made? Dale Brown is convinced that it's silver fillet brazed and that's that.

Does anyone know how the Singer headtubes were done and whether something like that can be made in stainless? I have a bunch of articles I've researched but materials aren't mentioned.

Finally, does anyone know of a builder experienced in repairing Rigi's?

Here's a few of the bike in question:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/DSC_0787.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/DSC_0789.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/DSC_0790.jpg

[A.L.Breguet]

It looks solid. How does it ride? It's a little ugly, but I'd consider leaving it.

[dannyg1]

It rides beautifully but I'm paranoid about failures in traumatized frames and I want this bike to be one that I keep for a lifetime. I'm considering having one of the Singer style headtubes made and utilizing that because, even though it's a definite mod - and wrong for Rigi, it's a work of art in and of itself and would allow me to have the problem dealt with gracefully.

Danny

[mosca]

I'm gonna say it's fillet welded. I don't think that repair panel could have been added over the top of a silver fillet due to the different melting temps of silver and stainless.

And that Singer looks like the headtube/top and bottom lug assembly was cast in one piece. It would be very difficult to replicate this, especially as a one-off part.

Just guessing here to kill time until someone smarter chimes in.

[Grant McLean]

The Singer looks Chrome, not stainless....

-g

[dannyg1]

The Singer looks Chrome, not stainless....

-g

The Singer is chrome, I'd suppose, but the Rigi is stainless. I put the photos of the Singer headtube up as a contrast so that I could better illustrate what I'm thinking of doing. Were I to have that Singer-esque headtube made, it'll be done in polished stainless and have the riser rings the Rigi has.

Danny

[dannyg1]

I'm gonna say it's fillet welded. I don't think that repair panel could have been added over the top of a silver fillet due to the different melting temps of silver and stainless.

And that Singer looks like the headtube/top and bottom lug assembly was cast in one piece. It would be very difficult to replicate this, especially as a one-off part.

Just guessing here to kill time until someone smarter chimes in.

You're vote number 2 on the idea that this was TIG welded and then filed smooth.Jus got off the phone with a man at Franklin Cycles (Personal recommendation by Dale Brown) who's confident he can do the Singer style headtube in stainless well.

Any objections?

Danny

[David Kirk]

Are you sure it's stainless? Stick a magnet on it and if it sticks it's not stainless.

I looks like plated fillets.

Dave

[dannyg1]

Are you sure it's stainless? Stick a magnet on it and if it sticks it's not stainless.

I looks like plated fillets.

Dave

Thanks for the interest Mr. Kirk. It is Stainless, I assure you.I'll do the tst though and get back with the result, should I be wrong, but the frames advertising screams stainless and I don't have any reason to not believe it.

Danny

[dannyg1]

I received a message to my mailbox I thought it'd be interesting to share:

>>>>Is the photo of the welded section added to the tube a photo of your frame?<<<

>>>>>the workmanship really wasn't all that great to start, so why spend so much to end up with an inaccurately nice frame that still is at best a Rigi? <<<

First, because I'm in love with it and second because I think that it's rare enough to qualify as an important example of bicycle history;something a few bicycle museums have come to conclude as well.

I have to disagree entirely with the popular opinion of Rigi workmanship as well. My Rigi is beautifully made; that it survived the front end trauma it has, as well as it has, is testament to it.

It's worksmanship is as beautifully done as many of my custom handbuilts, and its detailwork carefully presented. I'm not sure where the reputation of the Rigi became so tortured, but it's certainly not because of the work present on their top-of-the-line frames. This is _much better than your 'garden variety Bianchi', the dig I've read most often. I comes across to me, more like a Singer (or some kind of Italian homage to a French ideal) than as a 70's Italian racing bike.

What I'm planning to do, it's true, will be unlike any Rigi ever built. In talking with two experienced builders, I was told that the significant heat generated in building the bike in the first place gave it a reputation for being brittle at the joins. Add to that the heat generated when making the first repair and then, compound it with a third repair and we're going into territory where I could expect problems later on.

Once again, since I value my health more than I care about a 'correct' restoration, the Singer-esque headtube eases the strain on the joints, allows an internal sleeve to be made part of the mix and preserves the unique beauty of the rear seat triangle of the frame in a way that tube replacement would effectively/probably destroy.

>>>Better still, you could possibly get an existing enterprise, Frances, to create a similar reproduction.

http://www.francescycles.com/about.html

Have fun!<<<<<<

In looking at the modern day recreations of the Rigi split-tube concept, I can't say that the mind set has been captured. Both the Francescycles version (which I can't save from the site for example here) and the Slawa/Landshark versions I've been able to find quickly, while artfully done, do not capture the beauty and elegance of the original Rigi interpretation.

I'll post this to the board with some photos for reference. I think others will be interested in seeing the examples.

Regards,
Danny

[mosca]

Just curious, have you ever pulled the fork? You might be able to gain some insight into how it was constructed by looking/feeling down inside the HT/TT and HT/DT junctions.

Regarding the options on the repair, I'd personally tend towards a solution that returned it to its original appearance/condition if possible, but that's entirely subjective so take it fwiw.

Alos, if you've got an overall pic of the bike, please post it, it looks like really unique setup.

Good luck!

[dannyg1]

Here's the front quarter view of the entire bike from the Speedcycles museum. The entire gallery of photos can be seen here:

http://www.speedbicycles.ch/collection_name.html

choose the Rigi from the list. Be sure to dig around as it's one of the finest bicycle related sites period.

Danny

[A.L.Breguet]

I truly understand your pespective. I dearly wanted one of these when I saw the first promo material in the early 80's. I'd still love to have one, built up with period Galli. That being said, I think you should leave it as is and look for a less molested example. Take this frame to a good builder for an inspection to see if it's safe as it ever was.
2 more of my cents. :beer: