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Ti Designs
02-14-2008, 06:21 AM
I'm doing far more Tri/TT fittings as of late, and I'm having some problems. To start with, I base my fittings on relative muscle strengths and set limits based on range of motion. Given the forward position you would think getting the big muscle groups into the action would be the problem - it's not. It's the range of motion at the hips combined with the mental image of pros on their time trial rigs, and the average age and fitness of my customers. It don't all fit...

Range of motion is a tricky thing. Going slightly beyond your range of motion for a few cycles can go without notice, doing it 80 times a minute for your whole ride will cause injury. I use saddle height as a good example, set the saddle height too high early in the season and the rider gets tendonitis behind the knee. Have the rider do lots of base miles with the saddle lower and all those stress cycles strengthen connective tissue, so they can raise their saddle without injury.

In the case of TT bikes, the pros have a gazillion miles, they're young and fit, and I would have to guess somewhat resistant to injury (or on ibuprofen a lot). So you see these guys in the bike porn - er, I mean mags, and their back is dead flat horizontal. Customers come to me wanting that bike and that position, and I can't make it all work. This is a real problem because time trials have become the new, safe way to challenge yourself. If one guy shows up with his knuckles dragging on the front wheel in the name of aerodynamics, everybody else **NEEDS** that position. What's a fitter to do?

wasfast
02-14-2008, 09:05 AM
There's lots of fit information by Dan Empfield on Slowtwitch. I recently dug through all that to setup my first TT bike for this year. One critical decision up front is do you have to meet the "5cm seat tip behind the BB"? That's a UCI rule and USCycling rule for national and NRC events. If these riders are not doing these sort of events, getting rotated forward is much easier.

Relative to your discussion, hip angle is the knob Dan mentions and is certainly a big factor for us older folks (I'm 49 for example). He lists a very narrow range of what folks can generally tolerate of 95-105 degrees. Here's quote that makes sense to me:

(Just before this quote, he's raising and lowering the bars and asking the rider what "feels best")
"In almost all cases, there's a pretty narrow range he'll self-select, and that's a hip angle of 95 to 105. You might think range of motion is an issue here. Almost never is this the case, because a nexus of power is reached before reaching the limit of one's range of motion. A hip angle of 100 is almost always achievable by just about everyone suited for tri bike riding.

"Whether riding at 76, 78 or 80 degrees, it's typical to find a subject choosing the exact hip angle at each successive seat angle. It ought to become apparent, in this case, that a very specific and narrow range exists for the placement of this subject's aero bars, and in each case it's related to his hip angle. In other words, he doesn't have a specific amount of "armrest drop" in elevation relative to his saddle. It changes depending on his seat angle. The constant is his hip angle. That's what he'll seek to preserve as he's rotated around the bottom bracket as if around the face of a clock. He certainly may exhibit a preference for one specific place around this clock -- that is, he'll prefer one specific seat angle -- but his preference for armrest elevation is going to change based in the seat angle in which he's placed. The angle of his hip while in the aero position is the critical element."

Other takeaways I found in all the articles:

*Nominal knee angle of 150 degrees with a range from 145-153 to set saddle height.
*KOPS goes out the window when rotated forward
*Cockpit Length target range for the shoulder angle is 80 to 85 degrees, measured from the greater trochanter to the clavicle.

Hope this is somewhat useful. Although comfort is more important for the longer time Tri folks spend on the bike, the principles seem quite similar.

gregclimbs
02-14-2008, 09:55 AM
do keep in mind that Dan is a great guy but is a triathlete and is focused on that market exclusively.

there are four factors that reduce the applicability of his suggestions to road racers who TT.

1) distance. him and even 1/2im distances are DRAMATICALLY longer than almost any TT a road racer will see. Even at a cat1 level you would be hard pressed to find a domestic TT over 40k.

2) from 1, comfort on the bike is a much more driving characteristic for a tri fit since a lot of time is spent in that position. but in a 40k, going fast, the rider will only be on the bike for ~1hr, so comfort really is the last aspect that should be focused on (and aerodynamics should not be comprimised for them).

3) triathletes have to run (up to a marathon!!!) after riding. cyclists don't.

4) a road cyclist, in addition to the 5cm rule, also spend the bulk of their training in a traditional position. and few spend a large amount of time training on a tt bike. a position that is dramatically different from the one 95% of training is performed in is not a good idea (from a performance standpoint as well as an injury standpoint).

just my $0.02

g

wasfast
02-14-2008, 11:23 AM
do keep in mind that Dan is a great guy but is a triathlete and is focused on that market exclusively.

there are four factors that reduce the applicability of his suggestions to road racers who TT.

1) distance. him and even 1/2im distances are DRAMATICALLY longer than almost any TT a road racer will see. Even at a cat1 level you would be hard pressed to find a domestic TT over 40k.

2) from 1, comfort on the bike is a much more driving characteristic for a tri fit since a lot of time is spent in that position. but in a 40k, going fast, the rider will only be on the bike for ~1hr, so comfort really is the last aspect that should be focused on (and aerodynamics should not be comprimised for them).

3) triathletes have to run (up to a marathon!!!) after riding. cyclists don't.

4) a road cyclist, in addition to the 5cm rule, also spend the bulk of their training in a traditional position. and few spend a large amount of time training on a tt bike. a position that is dramatically different from the one 95% of training is performed in is not a good idea (from a performance standpoint as well as an injury standpoint).

just my $0.02

g

I understand the comfort compromise, having to run etc. I attempted to note the comfort in my original post but it must not have been clear.

Many road cyclist are riding multiple types of events. In my case, I will actually be spending more time per week on my TT bike than my road bike as I'm only doing TT's. Not "normal" perhaps for ti_design's riders but to be good at it, some focus is required.

On the single point about hip angle, I think most riders will have a specific area they end up in as Dan mentioned. The power difference if you try hunching down on your road bike for example seems quite apparent. YMMV.

caleb
02-15-2008, 10:20 AM
A hip angle of 100 is almost always achievable by just about everyone suited for tri bike riding.


The "suited for tri bike riding" is the big qualifier.

I think Dan would say that most of the guys you're fitting don't belong on tt rigs, but should just ride their road bikes. But, then again, he doesn't sell bikes.

jerk
02-16-2008, 11:18 AM
the further you rotate the rider around the bottom bracket the more you will open the hip angle. this allows one to run a much lower front end while keeping the hip angle consistent with where it's at on the athletes road bike. you don't need to worry about moving the athlete beyond their range of motion because you aren't. you are simply rotating them around the bottom bracket in order to keep the hip angle the same and get the front end lower.

same muscle groups being used but there's alot less weight being supported by the saddle-hence the need for skeletal support. that's why they put those fancy elbow pads on the aero bars bub.

jerk

giordana93
02-16-2008, 12:10 PM
I'm no expert, but my .02 is that most of the guys I ride with nowadays do not roll their hips forward even on a normal road position, and it all begins with that. Besides habit, there are a couple impediments to people getting the forward roll: saddle design and tilt (varies by individual of course which ones work for a given person); and 2) a saddle height that, given limited flexibility, is too high. Every time I try to raise my saddle (or go to a longer crank without lowering the seat), in season or not, I feel great for the first hour or so, and while on the tops or a somewhat upright climbing, but as soon as I get in the drops, roll the hips into that power position (which effectively raises the saddle), I get pain in the back of my left knee, never fails. So I put up with the "your saddle looks to low" comment while in the easy early stages of a ride, when it really is too low, because I know that I don't have the flexibility I had when younger and don't stretch enough to compensate. When climbing, to attenuate the low seat, I do the old-fashioned thing of pushing myself back almost off the saddle, which is one reason I'm on a quest to find a new saddle that still incorporates the raised tail section, and not the newer style of dead flat, must be set with a level, saddle, that has the disadvantage as well of not cradling my butt in the forward roll (i.e. too much weight on the narrow forward section of the sit bones and nothing there to support the meatier section of the glutes we normally sit on). just some thoughts

Smiley
02-17-2008, 03:42 PM
Ti Man, I know what your saying and that's why I hate doing Tri guys and gals, they are more influenced by what they see and read. Its like you need to be a TRI guru and stick them in that postion and then they will bear with it cause the guru said so. Most of my cients though will do an ocassional TT with their road bikes and we work and the best comprimise postion for that event. best of luck Smiley

Too Tall
02-17-2008, 06:10 PM
Smiley, you can send the Tri crowd to me I love em :) The new uber fitting bike with power tap / computrainer is excellent for this stuff.

TiDesigns I'm watching NASCAR right now and I think that fitting Tri Athletes to event bikes is like racing...they have to be in a position that gets them to the run and not wasted. It really depends alot on the distance of the event.

DOH! A frickin' Dodge won Daytona grrrrrrrrrrrr.

Uh sorry. Back on topic. The sprint distances can ride a more aggressive position, they should be riding full on. IM distance riders need to save more for the run their effort / focus is speed at an endurance pace they need more comfort and save their legs more so than the sprint distances.

Allow me to temper this with the disclaimer (and this is no lie cause I saw it this weekend at a real swanky NYC Pro shop) even world class athletes do dumb cr@p like printing out pictures of fast riders and try to emulate them so you fight that alot. Also, genetics are not kind. What works for elite's may have very little to do with what works for talented racers.

Flame on. Be gentle ;)

Ti Designs
02-25-2008, 05:31 PM
I've come to the conclusion that bike guys should do bike fittings, TT/tri guys should do TT/tri fittings. With road bike fittings I have two decades of experience to draw from. With TT fittings I've been to Serotta advanced fit school and a few other seminars, but no personal experience to speak of with modern TT position. Just as a test I worked on my own position using the size cycle, I had a zillion questions which I couldn't answer. Given a month of adjusting and testing I may find a good TT position or I might hurt myself in the process. I'll start doing regular TT/tri fittings next year. Between now and then a TT/tri fitting will take 2 months and cost $20,000...

For what it's worth, one of my riders did win nationals in triathlon (I'm not as clueless as I claim), but the concept of fitters taking a class and jumping right into fitting without any knowledge base scares the hell out of me.

I'm just getting into one of my "fitting sucks" moods - can you tell?

seth
02-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I am new to this but as a triathlete I think there is great value in long course (half/ full ironman) fittings to be done by someone who has done an ironman. I realize that is not a necessity but I think it is helpful especially when a client walks in with a picture of Bjorn and says I want to look like him:). Of course all the usual funkiness applies but having done long course races I feel with other training and experience all else equal it matters. Also, based on which course they are racing the position could be very different for example IMFL vs IMLP.

I realize not a lot new here but just wanted to chip in my .02.

Too Tall
02-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Seth brings alot to the table. Your Kung Fu was obvious from the first utterance (say that really fast) ;)

No kidding, the guy I saw with the pic was this last yrs. champ at Ultraman and I swear to g-d he had pics. of IM winners in hand...can't believe that cr@p. Whatever.

The fellow I'm working with now has been off his bike for a few yrs. so I'm headed in the direction of comfortable rather than aggressive and squeezing seconds. The setup I've got in mind is ITU legal so he has drops and some aero advantage but mainly I want him to have good control of the bike and feel secure. Sounds like you could give good feedback to myself and TiDesigns if you are up for that? His bike btw is a cervelo with a stupid short riser stem...it will make the switch to ITU legal setup smooth as snot...normal stem + 2 cm and the shortie bars should work....I tried him out by taking out 2 cm of spacers, repositioned saddle, bars blah blah and he was really happy...just wait :)

Ti Designs
02-26-2008, 06:51 AM
I am new to this but as a triathlete I think there is great value in long course (half/ full ironman) fittings to be done by someone who has done an ironman. I realize that is not a necessity but I think it is helpful especially when a client walks in with a picture of Bjorn and says I want to look like him:). Of course all the usual funkiness applies but having done long course races I feel with other training and experience all else equal it matters. Also, based on which course they are racing the position could be very different for example IMFL vs IMLP.

That was pretty much my point. We had a guy at the shop who ran, swam and rode his bike in a speedo - I always like to pick on them some. A number of times we were both in the fit area working with customers, and I listened to some of the things he told his customers. They made sense, much like when I change the position of a rider and explain why it should work better. But that advice came from years of experience. Sprint triathlons are wor or lost in the transitions. I give myself 15 minutes before a ride to find my shoes - what do I know about that stuff?

What I have learned about tri fitting and coaching I learned from one of my rider's running coach. Triathletes are mostly type A people who feel the need to do multiple workouts which they call bricks - and I pick on them for this too... Jenna's running coach noticed that her times went up after she got off the bike, so we started to use a combination of her bike splits along with her runing splits as the final indicator of progress. The solution was to increase her cadence on the bike, pushing a lower gear, which left her in better shape for the run. There's no way I could have taken that kind of time out of the bike split. Bike fitters/coaches don't see the whole picture...

What has me in the "bike fitting sucks" mood is the new technology in time trial bikes and the expectations of the fitter. I've been to the classes, I understand the geometry of the bikes ('cept the Specialized - take a look at the geometry chart of their new Transition - what?!?!?!) and I wasn't a bad time trialist back in the day. But asking me to fit people [well] on bikes like that is like asking a math teacher to teach art history. The lack of personal experience puts me in a position to be incompetent. Worse, it gives the tri guys something to pick on me about. So, there's a learning curve. I have access to MIT's wind tunnel, I have power meters and I look no more stupid in an aero helmet than I do without one...

Too Tall
02-26-2008, 07:27 AM
That was pretty much my point. We had a guy at the shop who ran, swam and rode his bike in a speedo - I always like to pick on them some. A number of times we were both in the fit area working with customers, and I listened to some of the things he told his customers. They made sense, much like when I change the position of a rider and explain why it should work better. But that advice came from years of experience. Sprint triathlons are wor or lost in the transitions. I give myself 15 minutes before a ride to find my shoes - what do I know about that stuff?

What I have learned about tri fitting and coaching I learned from one of my rider's running coach. Triathletes are mostly type A people who feel the need to do multiple workouts which they call bricks - and I pick on them for this too... Jenna's running coach noticed that her times went up after she got off the bike, so we started to use a combination of her bike splits along with her runing splits as the final indicator of progress. The solution was to increase her cadence on the bike, pushing a lower gear, which left her in better shape for the run. There's no way I could have taken that kind of time out of the bike split. Bike fitters/coaches don't see the whole picture...

What has me in the "bike fitting sucks" mood is the new technology in time trial bikes and the expectations of the fitter. I've been to the classes, I understand the geometry of the bikes ('cept the Specialized - take a look at the geometry chart of their new Transition - what?!?!?!) and I wasn't a bad time trialist back in the day. But asking me to fit people [well] on bikes like that is like asking a math teacher to teach art history. The lack of personal experience puts me in a position to be incompetent. Worse, it gives the tri guys something to pick on me about. So, there's a learning curve. I have access to MIT's wind tunnel, I have power meters and I look no more stupid in an aero helmet than I do without one...

You could print some pic.s of really fast guys setups....KIDDING ;)

Than again roadies bring alot to the table when fitting triathletes for training bikes and many of the weekend warriors who are fine using their old road rigs adapted for events. Works both ways.

Ti Designs
02-26-2008, 10:36 AM
After spending 45 minutes reading docs from power and wind tunnel tests I can honestly say I didn't know how much I don't know.

My name is Ti Designs, I am a fitting idiot - there, I've taken the first step.

Step 2 is putting myself on a TT bike. This is gonna get silly. I keep putting the aero helmet on backwards and putting rolls of toilet paper on the aero bars so they have some good purpose. I'll see if I can't push my average speed past 12 MPH...

wasfast
02-26-2008, 01:46 PM
I'll see if I can't push my average speed past 12 MPH...

everyone needs a stretch goal. ;)

seth
02-26-2008, 05:35 PM
Ti there is no way you are serious with some of this stuff;. I assume you are kidding me but it is essential for triathletes to do bricks. Imagine riding 112 miles at lake Placid and then running a somewhat hilly marathon for the first time. That would not be a great idea. Adaptation and specificity is critical.

I do agree that triathletes are a different breed. In my limited experience they are willing to spend money on gadgets that roadies are not. The sport requires significantly more resources than road cycling. There are many athletes who are informed about their strengths and weaknesses. It is part of our responsibility to help them understand the biomechanics and their relationship to cycling.

Do we have al the answers no but heck you are very qualified to tell someone a particular geometry is not best for them. If they disagree then they can go elsewhere where they will get the answer they want.

When doing a fitting for the average AG athlete to me it is all about comfort first.

just another .02

Too Tall
02-26-2008, 06:21 PM
Yo Seth. I'm not the man's mouthpiece but I am on retainer ;) Sarcasm is hard to convey thru the keyboard nuff said he's a good guy that TiDesigns. Anywho, I'm glad to hear your views vis a vis (I've been waiting all day to say that) age group racers. What say you about steep seat tube angles and very narrow tt bar setups we see plastered across the magazines?

manet
02-26-2008, 07:10 PM
Allow me to temper this with the disclaimer (and this is no lie cause I saw it this weekend at a real swanky NYC Pro shop) even world class athletes do dumb cr@p like printing out pictures of fast riders and try to emulate them so you fight that alot.

dude i saw that too!

the picture emulation thing is big.. so if you're gonna do it it, at least find a pro with the same body type as you.

seth
02-27-2008, 04:01 AM
I totally get the sarcasm no disrespect meant. I do think it is important for us as fitters to appreciate the training loads as crazy as they maybe. If someone is going to ride aero for 6 hours and then run for 3.5 hours well they better be ready:).

As far as position that is a loaded question. IMHO, a lot of it for me is dictated by a few things, flexibility, core strength, and reality. The third is the hardest for us to measure because it is self report data as I call it. When I interview a person I ask how much time do you spend aero. The answer to that question is a key one for me. You may or may not be surprised how many people own TT bikes and on tougher courses should actually be on road bikes because they are negating any benefit because they are not riding in the aero position.

The question of width of the bars to me comes down to handling ( never sacrafice safety despite what they say.To minimize frontal exposure it is helpful to get the elbows inside the hips which is tied to saddle height, fore and aft etc. If we think about the desired goal of being aero it is to provide the smallest, "slippery', target to break the wind.

Steep seat angles look cool but are not for everyone. I encourage clients to live with their new position for a couple of weeks and then followup with so how does it feel? Seems to me 2 weeks is about enough riding to get a a sense if a rider can be comfortable.

Bottom line as in many other aspects of our society people want what they cant have. Not everyone is meant to ride aero,steep,flat back, cranking out big watts. For that I am glad the reality is a lot easier once you explain it to people.

Hope that helps. I am still learning all this stuff but my own experiences both good and bad as a client have helped me develop my thoughts.

Have a good day

Too Tall
02-27-2008, 08:30 AM
Seth that's a good question to ask. I'll make sure I do same.

jerk
02-27-2008, 10:34 AM
I've come to the conclusion that bike guys should do bike fittings, TT/tri guys should do TT/tri fittings. With road bike fittings I have two decades of experience to draw from. With TT fittings I've been to Serotta advanced fit school and a few other seminars, but no personal experience to speak of with modern TT position. Just as a test I worked on my own position using the size cycle, I had a zillion questions which I couldn't answer. Given a month of adjusting and testing I may find a good TT position or I might hurt myself in the process. I'll start doing regular TT/tri fittings next year. Between now and then a TT/tri fitting will take 2 months and cost $20,000...

For what it's worth, one of my riders did win nationals in triathlon (I'm not as clueless as I claim), but the concept of fitters taking a class and jumping right into fitting without any knowledge base scares the hell out of me.

I'm just getting into one of my "fitting sucks" moods - can you tell?


it does suck- because no matter how good you are all you're really able to do is get a good starting poin that then needs to be verified out on the road. no amount of lazers or srms or fancy tools are going to get anyone in a better starting point than a person who has done a million fittings with a tape measure and open ears.

here's the thing with time trial fits though.....there is relatively consistent position between what the fastest guys in the world ride. with very few exceptions they ride steepish seat angles......this allows for a constant hip angle with a low front end. you don't want it so steep that weight begins to move off of the pedals at the most important points in the rotation-especially if we are dealing with a power rider on a technical course with lots of changes in tempo.....

long distance triathlon is different....here for the vast majority of athletes you can push them supersteep...taking weight off the pedals at the important points of the pedal stroke is not that big a deal because there should be no super hard sprint style efforts-just a steady cadence at a constant wattage. the point is not to chase down a break or bridge up on the hills or put time into your opponents on terrain that suits you....its to put in a steady effort that will allow for the athlete to arrive at the run in the shortest possible time with the most gas left in the tank.....a super steep seat angle will allow the athlete to have a more open hip angle with a similar amount of drop as....say a world class time trialist...but with much less strain....sure some snap and ability to power up and change tempo will be lost; but the bike leg of an ironman is not the best place to recruit fast twitch anerobic systems anyway....

a time trial is not a triathlon....sometimes the bikes are the same but there are key differences.

jerk

aLexis
02-27-2008, 01:43 PM
well put, thanks jerk

Ti Designs
02-27-2008, 04:20 PM
Ti there is no way you are serious with some of this stuff;. I assume you are kidding me but it is essential for triathletes to do bricks.

If I didn't joke about it some of this stuff would drive me crazy. I have my riders keep training logs, when they do morning and night workouts and you see a downward spiral it's time for some time off - cyclists get this, triathletes not so much. So my rider says she has 5 more bricks before nationals, which leaves no down time. I get this bright idea, I pick her up two bricks at Home Depot and tell her to take Wednesday off and Thrusday easy...

I agree 100% with the Jerk that in any fitting the best you could do is put someone in a good starting position - it's the same thing Serotta Andrew would always say to me when I got frustrated by what I was seeing out on the road, and it's the #1 reason for riding with your fitter. A fitting is an hour or so on a trainer, it only gets you so far. Dialing in your position takes far longer. It's one of the reasons that being both a fitter and coach is such a huge advantage - I see my riders on the bike in real conditions for hours on end. I see how they climb, how they pedal, how they corner - this is all feedback the fitter in some shop never gets.

I'm going to disagree with the jerk on the consistancy of position - or maybe about the bit about the fastest riders in the world, I'm not sure which. I first need to understand the position and the fit from my own perspective. When I work on techniques with my riders I first figure out how I do it, then I figure out how to explain the movement to others - it's never as easy as it sounds. Try this, go climb a steep hill out of the saddle in a steady tempo. Now explain how to do it to a new rider. It'll frustrate the hell out of you, but you'll be forced to figure out how each bit of the sequence of movements happens. To keep from hitting the bottom of the pedal stroke you twist your hips which puts the next hip over the pedal as it's about go start going down - who knew? There are thousends of little movements you make which you never have to think about. This is the stuff I'm not getting with TT position. I can't explain what should happen 'cause I have no personal perspective on it - I just don't know.

The only solution I can see is to put myself on a TT bike and figure out what I don't know. There's plenty of cookbook fitting info out there, finding a starting point should be easy. It's finding speed and learning to tweek the position for longer or shorter events that's going to take some time.

Should it bother me knowing that lots of fitters go to one or two classes and then just start sticking riders on TT bikes?

Too Tall
02-27-2008, 04:46 PM
"Should it bother me knowing that lots of fitters go to one or two classes and then just start sticking riders on TT bikes?"

Not in the least my brother, you are too nice. It's a free world afterall, yo.

Senor' how steep are you talkin'? 83? You always seem to have the inside skinny on pro bike geo's. What the diff. between LanceyBoys TT rig and the rest of the world? My observation is his is closer to a road STA (74) yes no?

seth
02-27-2008, 06:31 PM
Ti sounds like you are dealing with some very serious athletes. I have ann idea for you. Buy 5 bricks at Home Depot tie them to the bike and have them train. This way on race day they will be faster.

Sounds like you are talking very specific short course setups which are like anything else trial and error. I am not sure that setting yourself up on a TT will help that much because we are all so different.

If you have taken the classes and done tons of fits not much more you can do. Sounds like you area a coach as well which is good I dabble as well. Perhaps you can tinker with the position and see how it relates to a repeatable power session.

Beyond that my man you are in fitter hell.


PS you probably are not charging enough;.

Ti Designs
02-28-2008, 09:13 AM
Sounds like you are talking very specific short course setups which are like anything else trial and error. I am not sure that setting yourself up on a TT will help that much because we are all so different.

This is where we disagree. When fitting a road bike a lot of my answers to customer questions are based on how I understand riding. There's also 15 years of working with other people, so I can relate to conditions that are different from my own, but the basic understanding comes from my perspective from being on the bike. I don't have that in TT fittings. I look at someone on a road bike and I see a good position or one that needs work. I look at someone on a TT bike and I see a rider on a weird bike.


PS you probably are not charging enough;.

Based on my salary and cost of living I would have to agree, but there's two sides to that as well. I've put off much needed dental work because I simply can't afford it on my salary. As it is my house is at 50 degrees and my food budget is what some people spend on coffee alone. Dentists clearly charge enough, to the point where 200 of my work hours pays for one of theirs (note to self, make special rates for doctors, lawyers and dentists). The financial picture doesn't get around the fact that I still need the work done. The bike industry is at a balancing point between ultra expensive bikes and plush fitting studios charging dentist rates and the rest of the world looking to get the best value for their money. As unpopular a theory as it is on this forum, the growth and survival of cycling depends on bringing in the new riders on affordable bikes. Selling just bikes without fitting them clearly isn't the answer, the cycling explosion of the 70's left way too many people with the impression that cycling hurts. If fitting is expensive across the board you wind up with people who need it and don't get it.

The subject of fit as it's seen by the public needs work. In a past life I worked for Raytheon doing ECM work. If I were still there I would be making 3 times what I make at the bike shop. I'm a far better bike fitter than I was a programmer, yet people still think of a bike fitting as lifting up the bike to see that you have 1" over the top tube. As a coach it blows my mind when I see someone with $4000 wheels but doesn't know how to sit on the bike. Bike fitting has real value, it takes real education, it should demand higher prices. I don't understand how people can put such emphasis on the equipment and no emphasis on the rider.

jerk
02-28-2008, 11:50 AM
"Should it bother me knowing that lots of fitters go to one or two classes and then just start sticking riders on TT bikes?"

Not in the least my brother, you are too nice. It's a free world afterall, yo.

Senor' how steep are you talkin'? 83? You always seem to have the inside skinny on pro bike geo's. What the diff. between LanceyBoys TT rig and the rest of the world? My observation is his is closer to a road STA (74) yes no?


no-
by steep i mean a few degrees steeper than the road position....look at the power guys like cancellera, rich, even levi....these guys will get on the nose of the saddle in certain conditions but they're not riding the 79/80 degrees plus that works for the vast majority of competitive age group triathletes.

its a different sport.

jerk

seth
02-28-2008, 01:29 PM
Ti- I have seen prices for fitter between $125-400 for a session. Withyour experience you should be at the high end of that range.

On the part about setting yourself up on a TT bike. I am not saying it is a bad idea just that you should try doing a tri and see how you feel. I do race so I have the sense you are talking about but I do not do Crits so would be a little gun shy to say with much authority I have much expertise with that need. I do think that Tri fitting is a little more complex than road fitting but heck charge for it.

Good luck with your quest and get the chompers fixed.

Ti Designs
03-14-2008, 07:02 PM
Update on fitting myself on a TT bike:


Like I've said before, I know road bikes. I know how to control which muscles fire when, I know how to turn on the big muscle groups and crank out the torque or fire 'em all up and turn up the RPMs. From in the saddle, I know nothing when it comes to the modern TT position. I spent 3 hours making changes to my position yesterday, another half hour this morning while on the bike and trying to figure out how to generate power. While the basic concepts are the same, it's a whole different way to power a bike - even the upper body work is different. On the trainer this morning I tried to turn out smooth power in the big chainging in the aero bars, then I moved to the bullhorns and tried to jump out of the saddle, only to find that my arms had lost all strength - there's something going on there I need to know about...

Thus far I've only reinforced my opinion, don't go to a pure road guy for a TT/Tri fitting. And the theory that you can't use your glutes or lower back in the aero position - WRONG!!!

giordana93
03-14-2008, 09:57 PM
maybe you should check with the guy who worked with rasmussen on his time trial bike before that disastrous TT ride in the tour (god, I'm losing it; was that 2 or 3 years ago?)
short story: we can adapt to almost any position, but it takes a lot of training and muscle memory to get right. I can ride a slow century after a 2 month break, but can't run 3 miles. my super fit running friends can't sustain 21 mph on a bike more than 1km
out of curiosity, Ti: do you run? (I don't)

Orin
03-15-2008, 01:38 AM
Update on fitting myself on a TT bike:


Thus far I've only reinforced my opinion, don't go to a pure road guy for a TT/Tri fitting. And the theory that you can't use your glutes or lower back in the aero position - WRONG!!!


A few years back, when I bought my Cervelo Dual, a local tri shop I bought it from set me up on it. Not as low as some - I am in my 40s after all, but wow, it was free speed compared to my regular road bike.

The group I ride with hated it when I turned up with it for a sunday ride :) It was literally easier to be on the front in the aero position than at the back on the bullhorns.

Orin.