Is framebuilding about welding or painting?

[caleb]

Lots of pictures of beautiful bikes coming in from the NAHBS, and lots of them are from fairly new builders. For example, Desalvo and Signal displayed some very nice looking bikes, and neither of these guys have been around too long.

Which brings me to my point. Framebuilding used to be about tubesets and welding/brazing. Paint was gravy. Today it seems that, following Sacha White at Vanilla, the emphasis is now on paint and finish (I'm not saying that Mr. White is a bad welder, just that he's a good finisher). I have no idea if those DeSalvo or Signal frames are straight, but I still want one.

Has something changed? Without necessarily judging the trend good or bad, has the "function/art pendulum" swung more toward art than function these days? On the other hand, is the trend toward beautiful city bikes an indication that utility is still a concern? Or, is all that pretty paint masking bad welds and a lack of descending stability?

[big shanty]

In an ideal world, the two are inseparable. The Weigles and lugged Vanillas at NAHBS were evidence of this. People get all caught up in color choices and paint schemes (particularly w/ Vanilla), but with these artists so much thought and care is put into how the metalwork and paint work together.

[caleb]

Can someone tell me how to edit the poll? (My tenses don't agree.)

[goonster]

Desalvo has been around for a while, no? From what I hear, his frames are plenty straight enough.

Paint, appearance and attention to finish detail are part of the Gestalt. It is OK for bikes to be pretty.

If you are talking only about race bikes, then folks often look askance at whimsical details, but for custom rigs that ordinary citizens ride around . . . bring it on! If it breaks or doesn't track straight you'll always know who to gripe to.

[maunahaole]

The tubes and how they are joined is the steak, the paint is the sizzle.

Nice paint doesnt make the bike fit or ride any nice, it makes it look better in your living room and helps to justify keeping it there to your significant other...

The consumer who is willing to fork out the money and wait for a handbuilt is probably also going to insist on impeccable finishing as well.

That said, I'm sure there are plenty of custom builders out there who will sell a frame with a more pedestrian finish.

[SPOKE]

if you want to know if the frame was well built (quality construction/craftsmanship) ask the guy that is contracted to paint it. (a conversation with Joe Bell is very enlightening)

if you want to know if the builder builds a nice riding bike ask someone you respect that owns one. (experience really counts in this catagory)

i saw many nice "looking" bikes from a distance at NAHBS but when you get close enough to examine the details the cream rises to the top. :beer:

[coylifut]

not only has Mike DeSalvo been around for a while, I believe he TIGs the Speed Wagens which are made in the Vanilla workshop.

[Blue Jays]

Bicycles will always need to work well in order to maintain a spot in the marketplace. Without that crucial functionality, a brand would eventually fall by the wayside.

[Ti Designs]

Do you plan on riding the bike or hanging it on a wall? I see the art form as how the rider uses the bike, not what it looks like or how the lugs were cut or what brazing material was used. NAHBS is a collection of paperweights as far as I'm concerned, superbly crafted bikes that'll probably never see any use. In what other art form do they use standard off the shelf, mass produced parts? Shifters, cranks, derailleurs - these are all parts that that can be purchased at bike shops. Last time I went to the MFA I didn't look at any of the paintings and think "I can get the exact same thing at my local bike shop". OK, the frames are the hand built part of it all, but the fact that they bother to hang components on them means there's a function there that so few of those bikes are ever going to see.

I just know I'm gonna get my head handed to me for this...

[big shanty]

Do you plan on riding the bike or hanging it on a wall? I see the art form as how the rider uses the bike, not what it looks like or how the lugs were cut or what brazing material was used. NAHBS is a collection of paperweights as far as I'm concerned, superbly crafted bikes that'll probably never see any use. In what other art form do they use standard off the shelf, mass produced parts? Shifters, cranks, derailleurs - these are all parts that that can be purchased at bike shops. Last time I went to the MFA I didn't look at any of the paintings and think "I can get the exact same thing at my local bike shop". OK, the frames are the hand built part of it all, but the fact that they bother to hang components on them means there's a function there that so few of those bikes are ever going to see.

I just know I'm gonna get my head handed to me for this...

Dude, don't you own a stack of Peter Mooneys?

Last I checked, he and his painter take more than a little pride in how his bikes look. Of course they have a reputation for working well, but I think downplaying the aesthetics (edit: finish work, specifically) of the product does a disservice to the builder and the painter.

[steve575]

I think frames are whatever you want them to be. There are plenty of buyers and sellers for all types of frames. I love to look at pictures of Vanilla and other unique customs. Everyone is different. I am a person that obsesses over paint and asthetics. There have been many days that just looking at one of my bikes has motivated me to go out and ride it.

[rphetteplace]

not only are Mike DeSalvo's bikes straight and he's been doing it for several years now AND he's been one of the lead instructors at UBI for several years and has taught many of the new generation.

[DarrenCT]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3222/nr19qt9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[rounder]

I think aesthetics are about purposeful and beautiful. Who wants something that looks good but doesn't work. Also, if something works great but looks industrial...who would want that. Both is good.

[rinconryder]

not only has Mike DeSalvo been around for a while, I believe he TIGs the Speed Wagens which are made in the Vanilla workshop.


That is correct from what I understand although from what I have read Sacha may mix up the builders each year, a guest builder so to speak.

[swoop]

frame building is about being naked and singing in falsetto little tiny songs that you like to write as you sing.

duh. people... they teach you this day one.

[Ti Designs]

Dude, don't you own a stack of Peter Mooneys?

Last I checked, he and his painter take more than a little pride in how his bikes look. Of course they have a reputation for working well, but I think downplaying the aesthetics (edit: finish work, specifically) of the product does a disservice to the builder and the painter.

I'm not saying my Peter Mooney bikes aren't good looking bikes, I'm saying that building a bike that could be functional but never will be is missing the point of being a bike. I had two matched Peter Mooney race bikes when I was racing, when I switched to the Seven I gave one of them away 'cause I couldn't stand to see it sit there doing nothing.

[Sasha18]

A few months back someone made a post about last year's NAHBS. The gist was that a particular young framebuilder with nice paint jobs had frame alignments so out of whack you could see it from across the hall in San Jose.

I'm curious, did anyone see a poorly aligned frame in Portland? I'm not asking for names... just curious. How common is misalignment, poor welding? With the right equipment, I would think that alignment would be difficult to get wrong. Designing a poorly proportioned bike, now that's another matter.

[David Kirk]

A few months back someone made a post about last year's NAHBS. The gist was that a particular young framebuilder with nice paint jobs had frame alignments so out of whack you could see it from across the hall in San Jose.

I'm curious, did anyone see a poorly aligned frame in Portland? I'm not asking for names... just curious. How common is misalignment, poor welding? With the right equipment, I would think that alignment would be difficult to get wrong. Designing a poorly proportioned bike, now that's another matter.

I did.

Dave

[Tobias]

Without necessarily judging the trend good or bad, has the "function/art pendulum" swung more toward art than function these days?How can we rule out that a bike’s artistic value is not its main function?
If you limit function to ride and handling, then paint and beautiful welds don’t matter much.
If its purpose is about exclusivity, to impress, differentiate, etc….then art and function become one.
For most of us I think it’s a combination – mostly leaning towards what others perceive as cool.
IMO there are more differences -- within reason -- between the way frames look than how they ride.

[sg8357]

Art Stump was doing art bikes for Gilgamesh, so art bikes
aren't new, we just have the interweb to let us all see them.

I get a kick out of NAHBS, this is like living in the Renaissance,
yeah there may be some flashy dodgy bikes, but d*amm there
is a lot of good work being done. Even the stuff that makes
you go Hmmm what were they thinking is fun to look at.

15 years ago, could anyone here imagine a NAHBS ?

Scott G.
These are the good old days.

[Ti Designs]

frame building is about being naked and singing in falsetto little tiny songs that you like to write as you sing.

Sadly, this is a far better answer than anything I could come up with...

[jeffg]

I did.

Dave

Ouch!

[big shanty]

I think less time hammering & shining lugs....more time making sure the dropouts ain't crookit'.

[e-RICHIE]

I think less time hammering & shining lugs....more time making sure the dropouts ain't crookit'.
unless it absolutely, positively has to be there overnightmo atmo.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/fourstar/fourstar1.jpg

[Grant McLean]

After spending too much time lookin' at flickr.com photos of the last
couple of years shows... (there are over 8,500 photos tagged "nahbs" alone...)
and counting...

i've come to the conclusion that a lot of the real cool bikes were locked up
outside the show, that looked ridden, scratched, dented, and real.

-g

[sspielman]

unless it absolutely, positively has to be there overnightmo atmo.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/fourstar/fourstar1.jpg

Those guys look like the Rapha poseurs in their street clothes.....

[Chris]

I've been thinking about this thread for some time before it was posted. I remember being in the Merckx factory and seeing all of the unpainted frames, and being disappointed that there wasn't any magic underneath. I don't have the eye to tell if a frame is misaligned or any of the other discernments that the masters here have. I appreciate their craft and believe that they are great because of supply side economics, but if Mr. Sachs, or Kirk, or White did not have bikes that stand out aesthetically, I frankly wouldn't be attracted to them.

It isn't that my wife isn't a wonderful person, but if she hadn't been hot, I wouldn't have bothered to check her out in the first place. Call me shallow...

[Sasha18]

I'm not interested in names or talking trash. I'm just interested in places anyone saw shotty work at the show, all with the understanding that the show features a lot of really amazing work and perhaps some that is improving. Where were the most errors in bike building - that you saw.

I don't know if I have an attenuated enough eye to recognize these things. The comment above about asking Joe Bell is spot on. I would guess that even in case of the experienced builders, there are things that bug them about their own work, that no one else will see, but they know is there. I'm not a bike builder, but in my own profession I know there are times when you complete a project, it gets sent out, and you notice a small error or something not as you wanted it. That must happen to the best.

[e-RICHIE]

but if Mr. Sachs, or Kirk, or White did have bikes that stand out aesthetically, I frankly wouldn't be attracted to them.

It isn't that my wife isn't a wonderful person, but if she hadn't been hot, I wouldn't have bothered to check her out in the first place. Call me shallow...
firstly, i assume you inadvertantly left out a negative.
otoh, a bicycle is made to be ridden, unlike - er...
never mindmo atmo.
I'm not a bike builder, but in my own profession I know there are times when you complete a project, it gets sent out, and you notice a small error or something not as you wanted it. That must happen to the best.
it happens on every fukingc frame atmo.

[Chad Engle]

It isn't that my wife isn't a wonderful person, but if she hadn't been hot, I wouldn't have bothered to check her out in the first place. Call me shallow...

POTY.

[Smiley]

A good paint job can cover up a lot of bad engineering or fundamentals. Take the work of a plastic surgeon on a famous person that can do wonders for the outside but may have not substance on the inside.

good paint= Botox

[big shanty]

unless it absolutely, positively has to be there overnightmo atmo.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/fourstar/fourstar1.jpg

Those look like pretty upstanding dropouts to me

[Chris]

firstly, i assume you inadvertantly left out a negative.
otoh, a bicycle is made to be ridden, unlike - er...
never mindmo atmo.

it happens on every fukingc frame atmo.

You are correct. I will edit my post. Thanks!

[FATBOY]

"it happens on every fukingc frame atmo. " Sir Sachs.
__________________
Perfection is elusive, even for those whom others would credit with it. If ATMO can't look at one of his frames and say "Perfectmo"...well, who the hell can? As for the paint aspect, a wiser man than myself once opined "You can't polish a turd!"

[Mshue]

I did.

Dave


That's kinda scary. Especially because the new guys (I know you weren't necessarily referring to a new guy - I guess I'm making that assumption) don't seem to be afraid to charge prices in line with what the more experienced builders charge.

[e-RICHIE]

That's kinda scary. Especially because the new guys (I know you weren't necessarily referring to a new guy - I guess I'm making that assumption) don't seem to be afraid to charge prices in line with what the more experienced builders charge.
howard beale atmo.

[shinomaster]

it happens on every fukingc frame atmo.


Is that the perfection part?

[e-RICHIE]

Is that the perfection part?
were those your toes under the table saturday nitemo atmo?

[shinomaster]

were those your toes under the table saturday nitemo atmo?

Karin has the really long legs atmo.