NAHBs: Other than the usual suspects, what builders really caught your eye.

[Acotts]

Who are the up-n-comers? We all know that Kirks, Sachs, Pegs and Vanillas are nice. But I have seen some pretty crazy pics too with other bike names.

What are some impressions?

Thx
-A

[DarrenCT]

a cool paint job can be misleading atmo

stick with the cool cats like u mentioned above

years and years and years of experience is da most important skill set imho

[weiwentg]

I wasn't there. but Courage Cycles had a very nice filleted stem that caught my eye. I presume it's stainless steel, because it was left unpainted and brush finished.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/2250524319/

[big shanty]

a cool paint job can be misleading atmo

stick with the cool cats like u mentioned above

years and years and years of experience is da most important skill set imho

I would agree with this, but add in a few more names....notably Weigle and Nobilette.

[Acotts]

a cool paint job can be misleading atmo

stick with the cool cats like u mentioned above

years and years and years of experience is da most important skill set imho

Yeah, this was what I was thinking. But I figured their must be a couple out there that raised some brows.

[shinomaster]

Bilenkey (sp?)

[bigtime]

Beyond the obvious, some new (to me) names had some pretty tight work:

Yipsan comes to mind. I only grabbed a couple pics (not very good ones at that) of their 650b/29er bike... very very nice work. Clean, thoughtful design with nice touches. They had a light green road bike that I never got back to looking at more closely and I wish I had. Based in Ft Collins, CO.

Signal: again, the details were amazing and Matt and Nate made them look easy. Fun, inspired city bikes; classic lugged roadies; clean cx bike.

Courage: more nice touches, clean designs, friendly local guys. (Clearly there is something in the water here!)

Vertigo: clean, purposeful ti designs; liked them a lot.

Nobilette was awesome to see up close. Townsend were beautiful in person too!

True Fabrication, Black Cat... so many builders out there with incredible passion and chops to pull off incredible works. This is a good time to be around!@

I have to say that I am impressed with what IF continues to bust out. (You know they are basically producing yet another generation of imaginative, talented builders.)

It's hard to say there were any real disappointments. Even a couple crazy builders featuring see-thru bikes (BME and the other one with the 2.6 lb carbon-trussed mtb frame) were impressive in a not-for-me-but-good-on-ya-for-pushing-the-envelope kinda way. Ugly as sin aesthetically but you had to look beyond that (ironically, at a show like this filled with so much eye candy!)

One more thing: though his designs arent as out there or overtly "new" any more, my most notable conversation came with Sean from Soulcraft. Very nice guy, very thoughtful, patient; sort of a really calm 'fire'. I've always found his bikes to be very pure-- was good to see that impression of the builder's craft aligned so much with his...uh..."soul".

[Dave B]

On both ends of the spectrum.

I Like Moots for their commitment to keep the finish and look the same year after year. Not terribly crazy abou the snow camo, but if it was to draw further attention then I get it.

I also like Indy Fab. They do great work and always seem to try somethign new. From what I gather the stuff they did was due to the fact that the staff collectively came up with things they always wanted to build. I think that is a sweet MO.

[fiamme red]

Yipsan comes to mind. I only grabbed a couple pics (not very good ones at that) of their 650b/29er bike... very very nice work. Clean, thoughtful design with nice touches. They had a light green road bike that I never got back to looking at more closely and I wish I had. Based in Ft Collins, CO.http://www.flickr.com/photos/renold_y/

650 MTB:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/renold_y/sets/72157603813435599/

[IXXI]

I'm hijacking those. Thanks!

[Sasha18]

The courage cross bike was very nice. I thought Steve Rex's work was very interesting - nice paint + quality welds.

This frame had a lot of nice details and the builder was eager to share the construction.

http://www.villincycleworks.com/gallery.cfm

http://www.villincycleworks.com/ImageGallery/189_tn.jpg

[frogpirate]

I'm a goober because I cannot remember the builders name, but the Track Persuit bike with the big umlatted U on the rear disc was dead-sexy in a Blade Runner futeristic way. His wife's bike may have had the most interesting paint at the show (IMHO) and as someone mentioned, the Cabron Fibre-Kevlar truss mountain bike frame was ver original. That said, Signal, LandShark or Comotion are most likely to get my hard earned $$. I like what these guys do and I like to support local if I can.

[big shanty]

The courage cross bike was very nice. I thought Steve Rex's work was very interesting - nice paint + quality welds.

This frame had a lot of nice details and the builder was eager to share the construction.

http://www.villincycleworks.com/gallery.cfm

http://www.villincycleworks.com/ImageGallery/189_tn.jpg


He was asking $5000 for the frame...claimed there were ~52 hours of work in the lugs. Seems like a reasonable price given the time...but the left rear dropout looked cocked (to me), so no sale. He did give me a cool T-shirt, though.

[mosca]

I'll agree with bigtime, the Yipsan bikes were cool. I'm not sure how much experience he has though (he had his UBI and Serotta fit certificates on display) but the bikes looked thoughtful and well crafted. Also agree on Sean Walling, a no bs kind of guy, so there may be a Soulcraft in my future. And he had the coolest headtube badges in the show, sorry I can't post a pic right now.

I did gravitate towards the tig bikes for some reason. I spoke to the guys at Moots, IF, CoMotion, and the aforementioned Soulcraft, and got great vibes from all.

Among the lesser known lugged builders, I really liked Townsend and Ybarrola, they both had very simple, "correct" looking bikes imho.

Lastly, I'll say what an honor it was to meet Dave Kirk and e-Richie in person. Both top notch people, and their unpainted frames on display left no doubt as to the value of experience, they were beautiful, and we're very lucky to have them and the other great builders who regularly contribute to this forum (obsequious moment over now, sorry).

[Steve Hampsten]

Crumpton

ANT

333fab

Courage

Signal

Ahrens

Chris King frame

Keith Anderson paint

Rapha

[vaxn8r]

I have to say I was much more impressed with Dave Kirk's stuff seeing it in person and speaking with he and Karin. I have one in my near future. An order, not the actual bike.

Signal had some great stuff, very nicely thought out in a Vanilla-asque sort of way. Practical stuff.

Rapha never really appealed to me on-line but in person much more so. I like their line-up, though not the cost.

I knew I would like Crumpton. I did.

I was less impressed with Parlee. Did anyone else feel underwhelmed with their bikes/presentation?

More later.

[1centaur]

Crumpton
...


What did Nick show other than the mountain bike I saw in one of the galleries?

[Kirk007]

I'm with Vaxn8r on the Parlee; not sure why but they don't grab me. If I wanted carbon it would be Crumpton. Those were gorgeous. But get the Kirk Vax!

I thought Mike DeSalvos bikes were very nice as well. Wonder if he's welding the Speedvagen road bikes? It was a terrific corner of the show - Vanilla and Desalvo on one side and Strong/Kirk kitty-corner.

[TMB]

a cool paint job can be misleading atmo

stick with the cool cats like u mentioned above

years and years and years of experience is da most important skill set imho

With respect, I think this advice is flat out wrong, or mis-guided anyway.

Without the support of the types of nutbars that inhabit places such as this, the smaller builders, the younger builders and the future builders will never be the "cool cats"

This is a dis-service to them, and those of us that like the product.

[chrisroph]

meeting erichie. what a gracious gentleman and a good spirit and boy those bikes were gorgeous. i also now have an atmo button on my camera strap.

dinner and beers fri night with zank, coy, michelle (coy's wife), and shino.

seeing some lugged pego's in the flesh.

the roadvagen was cool; and i really like some of the piste bikes sacha is making.

the race kirk was cool.

the track if was boss.

rene herse.

the hampsten shark was a nice piece of americana racing history.

there was so much else but these are the highlights that i can recall at the moment......

[Grant McLean]

With respect, I think this advice is flat out wrong, or mis-guided anyway.

Without the support of the types of nutbars that inhabit places such as this, the smaller builders, the younger builders and the future builders will never be the "cool cats"

This is a dis-service to them, and those of us that like the product.


with respect....

I don't believe the only "choice" a newbie builder has is to hang out a shingle
and sell frames to consumers. There are lots of different skills involved in
becoming a small business owner, let alone a framebuilder.

There are lots of ways to get experiece running a business, learning to fit a cyclist,
and braze/weld a frame with accurate alignment... before going into business
for yourself. It seems lately there has been some talk about how little experience
a few of the 'newbies' have... like Obama, it's a fair question... in general...
if we wanna discuss any person in particular, it's likely a better topic than
trying to make sweeping statements that generalize about everyone...
obviously the different builders have specific backgrounds.

... that said.. I think Darren is right that a paint job can hide a multitude of sins...

-g

[shinomaster]

I'm with Vaxn8r on the Parlee; not sure why but they don't grab me. If I wanted carbon it would be Crumpton. Those were gorgeous. But get the Kirk Vax!

I thought Mike DeSalvos bikes were very nice as well. Wonder if he's welding the Speedvagen road bikes? It was a terrific corner of the show - Vanilla and Desalvo on one side and Strong/Kirk kitty-corner.

None of the carbon bikes grabbed me.

[big shanty]

I think it's an issue of expectation and intent. What do you expect out of a "custom" bike, and why do you choose to support one builder over another for a project? I think if you feel strongly about supporting somebody "new", you lend them your support....knowing that going to the established stars will most likely result in a "better" bicycle (at least from a design standpoint).....and experience is often tied to expense and wait, so that figures into such decisions. I would be more inclined to support a new builder on a utility bike or something like that, and leave the performance machines to the old pros.

[paczki]

None of the carbon bikes grabbed me.

The Rue "Retro Grouch" looks very cool in the pictures. I would have never guessed it was all carbon

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs084/Rue_Sports_Retro_Grouch
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs084/Rue_Sports_head_tube
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs084/Rue_Sports_crankset

[slowgoing]

May have missed him this year but I want a Peter Mooney brevet bike.

[RudAwkning]

In regards to "new builders" vs. "old builders", we've gotta remember that the old guard were budding framebuilders once upon a time as well. Bikes have been built, ridden and raced for over a century now. The fellows who frequent this board and have proven themselves to us aren't the first and won't be the last.

So don't let a flashy paint job deceive you, but don't doubt that a new builder can't get the job done either. A lot of up and comers have worked under some of the best. My suggestion is to talk to the builder at length about what you want to accomplish with the bike. Anybody can miter, braze and tig metal together. Fostering that relationship between the customer and builder is a sweet science though.

My next two frames (if all goes as planned) are going to be from the oldest of the old (Eisentraut) and the newest of the new (Dave Wages/Ellis). I've no doubt that both will be able to build me some sweet custom rides.

[jmeloy]

Gang,
Was Whitney Moyer showing his wares at the show? Good guy and really like his work. Wondering if you saw him?
JAM

[mosca]

Gang,
Was Whitney Moyer showing his wares at the show? Good guy and really like his work. Wondering if you saw him?
JAMHe was not there, unfortunately.

[coylifut]

i was underwhelmed by the parlee and loved the crumpton as well. I also thought the Lynskey's were quite nice although I'd opt for bare ti. their painted bikes were high concept and drew attention to the booth for the show. Don Walker's track tandem was good as well.

The Sacha booth was great from top to bottom and I'm looking forward to the Track Vagen. the while sachs moves me as well.

what i did learn is that maybe i'm not a bike show guy. i can look at 'em for a couple of hours, but i really prefer to ride 'em.

[Grant McLean]

i was underwhelmed by the parlee

gosh, you're a tough crowd!
my jaw hit the floor...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2257445026/sizes/l/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2256653155/sizes/l/

-g

[big shanty]

gosh, you're a tough crowd!
my jaw hit the floor...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2257445026/sizes/l/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2256653155/sizes/l/

-g

Yeah, that was HOT!!!


As for Moyer, he used to be a Flickr celebrity, but he hasn't updated anything since last November...so I'm not sure what's going on with him.

EDIT: I just looked, and Moyer updated his Flickr account today:

http://flickr.com/photos/moyercycles/

[vaxn8r]

gosh, you're a tough crowd!
my jaw hit the floor...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2257445026/sizes/l/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wetzell/2256653155/sizes/l/

-g
I guess part of it was the presentation. Pretty dry. The second part of it is the bikes all look alike to me. Even though the prices vary by thousands. I was a bit turned off when I found the Z4, made in Asia, sells for around $6-7k with a run of the mill wheelset. I was quoted well north of $10K for a Z1. I didn't get any exact framset prices quoted. That kinda annoyed me as well. The info wasn't real forthcoming. Are they ashamed of their prices or what? It all felt vague.

I didn't see anything I had to have and certainly not for those kind of prices.

[pdxmech13]

yur not the only one vanxr !

[Ginger]

with respect....

I don't believe the only "choice" a newbie builder has is to hang out a shingle
and sell frames to consumers. There are lots of different skills involved in
becoming a small business owner, let alone a framebuilder.
....

... that said.. I think Darren is right that a paint job can hide a multitude of sins...

-g

It was interesting. I stepped in to one booth (a pair of builders...) and they told me that I was looking at bikes 2-5 right there...and in some ways it really showed.

There were show bikes there that had fillets so poor that I thought: "*I* can do that" and "People pay for that?"

I think there should be a whole section for builders with less than X number of frames or X number of years. That way experienced builders like DeSalvo won't be mistaken for a newbie just because no one has heard his name, and new builders who are really new can compete on a level field with each other.

That was one issue with viewing all these bikes...if you didn't know who was who...you didn't know.

[vaxn8r]

It was interesting. I stepped in to one booth (a pair of builders...) and they told me that I was looking at bikes 2-5 right there...and in some ways it really showed.

There were show bikes there that had fillets so poor that I thought: "*I* can do that" and "People pay for that?"

I think there should be a whole section for builders with less than X number of frames or X number of years. That way experienced builders like DeSalvo won't be mistaken for a newbie just because no one has heard his name, and new builders who are really new can compete on a level field with each other.

That was one issue with viewing all these bikes...if you didn't know who was who...you didn't know.
I hate to say it but looking at tig welds...Darios honestly sucked. His frames, with the exception of the Luigano, all look like he must have been in a huge hurry to get somewhere else. I'm not really that into perfect welds (Moots for example I appreciate but, well, so what?) Maybe a rough, lumpy, oozy tig is all part of the gestalt??

Did anyone notice the CoMotion tigs? Here's a total "tool" bike with the sweetest tigs you will ever see on the planet.

Weird atmo.

[Steve-O]

Did anyone notice the CoMotion tigs? Here's a total "tool" bike with the sweetest tigs you will ever see on the planet.

Weird atmo.

Not that I'm a welding expert but CoMotion and Independent Fabrications TIG welds always looked great to me. Glad to see them get some recognition...

[Grant McLean]

I hate to say it but looking at tig welds...Darios honestly sucked. His frames, with the exception of the Luigano, all look like he must have been in a huge hurry to get somewhere else. I'm not really that into perfect welds (Moots for example I appreciate but, well, so what?) Maybe a rough, lumpy, oozy tig is all part of the gestalt??

Did anyone notice the CoMotion tigs? Here's a total "tool" bike with the sweetest tigs you will ever see on the planet.

Weird atmo.

It's not weird... it's the difference between a single pass
and a multi pass technique. Dario only gets one shot.
it is what it is. A quality weld is one done at the correct
temperature for the correct amount of time. I've never
heard of a Pegoretti weld cracking, even though the tubes
he uses are extremely thin walled. Saying they "suck"
is a little simplistic, if you don't know what you're looking at.
If a lugged frame has had 20 hours of file work to clean it up
after brazing to make it look nice, vs a master who doesn't
even touch the finish after brazing with sandpaper because the
joint is perfect...
who's the "better" builder?

-g

[texbike]

There was so much at the show that was impressive.

The one that was unexpected (and unknown) for me was Vendetta Cycles who are based in Oregon. They had a couple of gorgeous bikes on display. Were they just flashy paint and polished lugs? To my untrained eye, I couldn't tell. I also couldn't tell you how they rode.

What I do know is that the brass pinned construction, polished lugs, and new Columbus steel tubesets (along with steel forks) appealed to an aesthetic that I like.

Take a look at www.vendettacycles.com .

Cheers,

Texbike

[Steve Hampsten]

I hate to say it but looking at tig welds...Darios honestly sucked. His frames, with the exception of the Luigano, all look like he must have been in a huge hurry to get somewhere else. I'm not really that into perfect welds (Moots for example I appreciate but, well, so what?) Maybe a rough, lumpy, oozy tig is all part of the gestalt??



Imho, Co-Motion's steel welds are marginally cleaner than Dario's, but Dario's aluminum welds are pretty much like Co-Motion's. What were you looking at, steel or aluminum? If you don't know the material then you can't really make a call on it.

(My new Co-Mo-built MAX frame arrived today - it's one of the best things I've ever done. Somebody up there likes me)

[coylifut]

the more i learn about co-motion (the bikes and the people) the more i think they're one one of the best buys in the business.

[IXXI]

The CoMotion Nor'Wester killed. Loved that paint. (And welds. ;-) )

[Marco]

Co-Mo crafted Gran Paradiso in my basement (it's way below zero here in Siberia) with Steve Hampsten's bro Andy on the seat tube and a Cinghiale on the headtube. It rocks and makes the meaning of "tool" much more than a 4-letter word. One day I may get around to taking photos.

[jimcav]

I was less impressed with Parlee. Did anyone else feel underwhelmed with their bikes/presentation?

More later.

when i decided to let my calfee go, i went to the closest dealer in MD--it was a little bit of a drive. i "knew" they were great bikes, but in person they did nothing for me. now this was 2005, but that was how i felt. have never regretted buying my crumpton.

jim

[ashwa64]

It's not weird... it's the difference between a single pass
and a multi pass technique. Dario only gets one shot.
it is what it is. A quality weld is one done at the correct
temperature for the correct amount of time. I've never
heard of a Pegoretti weld cracking, even though the tubes
he uses are extremely thin walled. Saying they "suck"
is a little simplistic, if you don't know what you're looking at.
If a lugged frame has had 20 hours of file work to clean it up
after brazing to make it look nice, vs a master who doesn't
even touch the finish after brazing with sandpaper because the
joint is perfect...
who's the "better" builder?

-g

grant -- the voice of reason (although i like co-mos, too).

p.s. it's a luigino.

[vaxn8r]

Imho, Co-Motion's steel welds are marginally cleaner than Dario's, but Dario's aluminum welds are pretty much like Co-Motion's. What were you looking at, steel or aluminum? If you don't know the material then you can't really make a call on it.

(My new Co-Mo-built MAX frame arrived today - it's one of the best things I've ever done. Somebody up there likes me)
Steel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that into that kind of thing, but all of the Peg steel tig'ed bikes had the same goofy looking welds. It just struck me as odd. In fact, I've never seen such sloppy looking welds on any other tig bike. Do I care? Not really. I was just surprised to see it.

BTW, why was Pegoretti even at the NAHBS? His bikes seemed out of place there. "Made in Italy" and all.

[swoop]

Steel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that into that kind of thing, but all of the Peg steel tig'ed bikes had the same goofy looking welds. It just struck me as odd. In fact, I've never seen such sloppy looking welds on any other tig bike. Do I care? Not really. I was just surprised to see it.

BTW, why was Pegoretti even at the NAHBS? His bikes seemed out of place there. "Made in Italy" and all.

the show takes place in north america. it has hand made bikes.
dario's bikes are hand made... do you see the logic at work yet?
where do you think he sells most of his bikes? (hint: not italy).
dario's welds are purposeful. and he also does something i've seen no other builder do as well as he does.. and that's design the geo to put you in the right position on the bike. i've seen guys transformed by his bikes and geo.
not only does he belong... his being there is fantastic for all the participants... he's the last of the modern italian masters still designing, welding, and painting his own bikes. when he stops... it will never be the same.

[vaxn8r]

the show takes place in north america. it has hand made bikes.
dario's bikes are hand made... do you see the logic at work yet?
where do you think he sells most of his bikes? (hint: not italy).
dario's welds are purposeful. and he also does something i've seen no other builder do as well as he does.. and that's design the geo to put you in the right position on the bike. i've seen guys transformed by his bikes and geo.
OK Dad. Thanks for the lesson.

[ashwa64]

Steel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that into that kind of thing, but all of the Peg steel tig'ed bikes had the same goofy looking welds. It just struck me as odd. In fact, I've never seen such sloppy looking welds on any other tig bike. Do I care? Not really. I was just surprised to see it.

BTW, why was Pegoretti even at the NAHBS? His bikes seemed out of place there. "Made in Italy" and all.

it's not the "made in north america handbuilt bike show"

[swoop]

OK Dad. Thanks for the lesson.

wow. say more.

[shinomaster]

Ouch MP.

[Darrell]

.

[Darrell]

it's not the "made in north america handbuilt bike show"

:beer:

[Mshue]

Did anybody happen by the Proletariat booth? Two guys who used to be at Burley when they were still making bikes. Todd does the welding and Mike the designing. The Burley heritage is readily apparent, a good thing in my opinion. Kudos to them for displaying an unpainted frame, which had very clean looking tig welds by the way (I’m not qualified to comment on alignment, etc.). Plat OX frames starting at $825. Nice guys.

[Vancouverdave]

Bilenky's touring bikes, Rock Lobster's single speed, Pegoretti's track bike.

[Grant McLean]

ugh


You get a hall pass because you speak english.

Maybe it's the:
"taking-place-in-America-show-only-for-framebuilders-of-former-and-present-british-empire-colonies-allowed-show"

That'll never fit on the t-shirt...

-g

[mosca]

More good photos here:

http://urbanvelo.org/nahbs-2008-thursday-feb-8th/

Don't know why I bothered to bring my camera, it's all online anyway...

[shinomaster]

You get a hall pass because you speak english.

Maybe it's the:
"taking-place-in-America-show-only-for-framebuilders-of-former-and-present-british-empire-colonies-allowed-show"

That'll never fit on the t-shirt...

-g


That was English he was speaking? :beer:

[saab2000]

I hate to say it but looking at tig welds...Darios honestly sucked. His frames, with the exception of the Luigano, all look like he must have been in a huge hurry to get somewhere else. I'm not really that into perfect welds (Moots for example I appreciate but, well, so what?) Maybe a rough, lumpy, oozy tig is all part of the gestalt??

Did anyone notice the CoMotion tigs? Here's a total "tool" bike with the sweetest tigs you will ever see on the planet.

Weird atmo.

The welds on my Anvil by Don Ferris were visibly superior to those on my Serotta CIII.

Very, very comparable bikes in terms of ride but the Anvil was superior in terms of craftsmanship.

Man can weld!

[Grant McLean]

That was English he was speaking? :beer:

d'oh! I forgot, it's easier to understand what Dario is saying!

here:
http://www.koalanet.com.au/australian-slang.html

-g

[stevep]

OK Dad. Thanks for the lesson.

now go cut the grass..

[shinomaster]

.

[beungood]

I hate to say it but looking at tig welds...Darios honestly sucked. His frames, with the exception of the Luigano, all look like he must have been in a huge hurry to get somewhere else. I'm not really that into perfect welds (Moots for example I appreciate but, well, so what?) Maybe a rough, lumpy, oozy tig is all part of the gestalt??

Did anyone notice the CoMotion tigs? Here's a total "tool" bike with the sweetest tigs you will ever see on the planet.

Weird atmo.

"Tool" Bike?