OT-Torture

[1centaur]

Just to save us from the other thread, and I hope this can be done without venom...

The classic question is: If you have a child hidden in a box who will run out of oxygen in 30 minutes, and you have the kidnapper in hand who knows where the box is hidden, do you torture the kidnapper to get the answer and save the child, or do you stand on principle that any torture is unacceptable and let the child die?

In the same vein, if you KNOW you have a terrorist who has placed a time bomb in a mall, do you torture to save the shoppers or let them die?

Do you torture to save one soldier? 10? 1 million?

Do you feel as good about not torturing the Japanese in WWII on principle if you find out 5,000 US troops (cherished sons all) would have been saved if you had extracted the information?

What is the price of principle? It's all well and good to believe in no torture for fun, or boredom, or retribution, or as a war tactic to dishearten the enemy, but it is a luxury, and perhaps a conceit, to declare unequivocally that it is better to let your people die in ANY number than to torture one person to save lives. Within that context, waterboarding looks like some kind of compromise. Doubt of the "guilt" of the subject is of course a very valid concern, but again, is ANY mistortured person a de facto rationale for NEVER trying to save lives?

I genuinely want to hear the answers of those who say no torture is acceptable, because I always hear the hypothetical at the top of this post but I never hear a true anti-torture advocate say no, the child must die to preserve the principle of no torture.

[Viper]

Eye for an eye.

If my child is about to die due to the evil of a kidnapper, I'll all but kill the kidnapper to save my child. No regrets, no doubts and no hesitation. If my child dies before I get the information, I'd call 911 and have them drag the kidnapper off to jail. I'd stop just short of killing him.

Reminds me of the cartoon where a couple is walking their child in a stroller on a nice day, a robber comes up and pulls a gun on the couple demanding money. The Dem/Liberal couple stands there, the husband cries and the wife is trying to understand the feelings of the robber, how his childhood created this robbery.

Same cartoon, a Republican couple instead and all you see is BAM, the husband pulls out his pistol and shoots the robber dead.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This stuff just gets more ludicrous, it seems, as we get closer to the election. Of course this won't be discussed without venom, because it seems nothing ELSE even vaguely politically connected lately on the forum can be discussed without eventual descent into flaming venom. I really miss the early days when we actually talked about bikes . . .

BBD

[Viper]

This stuff just gets more ludicrous, it seems, as we get closer to the election. Of course this won't be discussed without venom, because it seems nothing ELSE even vaguely politically connected lately on the forum can be discussed without eventual descent into flaming venom. I really miss the early days when we actually talked about bikes . . .

BBD

Here, quick atmo:

[Chris]

There is a difference between what a human being would do or want to do, and what a society based on principles would or should do.

True story. My mother was murdered when I was small. Would I personally like to have killed the person who did it? Absolutely, and had he lived and ever made it out of prison at a point where I was old enough to take matters into my own hands, I would like to think that I would have. Do I believe in the death penalty though? Absolutely not. Am I contradicting? I don't think so. I think that society should rise above the frailities of human emotion and function based upon the priniciples with which it has been established.

[slowgoing]

It’s not a realistic hypothetical and can be easily skewed based upon who is “the decider.” First, you rarely know that a danger is both severe and imminent. You may suppose it is, but you don’t usually know for sure until either something or nothing has happened. And so what if a few people are tortured when there wasn’t really any danger after all, right? Second, if the person who decides whether or not to torture is also the person who decides that the danger is both severe and imminent, and you add to that a policy of not even letting people know whether or not you are torturing, you might as well throw the Constitution out the window. The devil is in the implementation, not some assumed fact hypothetical.

[paczki]

There is a difference between what a human being would do or want to do, and what a society based on principles would or should do.

True story. My mother was murdered when I was small. Would I personally like to have killed the person who did it? Absolutely, and had he lived and ever made it out of prison at a point where I was old enough to take matters into my own hands, I would like to think that I would have. Do I believe in the death penalty though? Absolutely not. Am I contradicting? I don't think so. I think that society should rise above the frailities of human emotion and function based upon the priniciples with which it has been established.

+1 A very thoughtful reply.

[93legendti]

Just to save us from the other thread, and I hope this can be done without venom...

The classic question is: If you have a child hidden in a box who will run out of oxygen in 30 minutes, and you have the kidnapper in hand who knows where the box is hidden, do you torture the kidnapper to get the answer and save the child, or do you stand on principle that any torture is unacceptable and let the child die?

In the same vein, if you KNOW you have a terrorist who has placed a time bomb in a mall, do you torture to save the shoppers or let them die?

Do you torture to save one soldier? 10? 1 million?

Do you feel as good about not torturing the Japanese in WWII on principle if you find out 5,000 US troops (cherished sons all) would have been saved if you had extracted the information?

What is the price of principle? It's all well and good to believe in no torture for fun, or boredom, or retribution, or as a war tactic to dishearten the enemy, but it is a luxury, and perhaps a conceit, to declare unequivocally that it is better to let your people die in ANY number than to torture one person to save lives. Within that context, waterboarding looks like some kind of compromise. Doubt of the "guilt" of the subject is of course a very valid concern, but again, is ANY mistortured person a de facto rationale for NEVER trying to save lives?

I genuinely want to hear the answers of those who say no torture is acceptable, because I always hear the hypothetical at the top of this post but I never hear a true anti-torture advocate say no, the child must die to preserve the principle of no torture.


Putting aside what is and what is not torture, in a perfect world, where both sides adhere to the rules, I might be inclined to put limits on what an interrogator can and can not do to save lives.

In THIS world, seeing my cousin after:
he was shot down in the '73 Yom Kippur War;
the Syrians did not list him as captured for months;
tortured him;
and, BEFORE they put his name on the POW list to be exchanged with Israel, punctured his ear drums so he could never fly again;

I'll leave the discretion to the Armed Forces and our commanders in the field, who are on the spot and need our support. They do not need second guessing and micro managing by politicians who are not even the Commander. I trust our military.

[J.Greene]

he was shot down in the '73 Yom Kippur War;


hmmmmm....How many wars are named after religious holy days?

JG

[DukeHorn]

I'll say it. I would torture someone as an individual if I knew that person was guilty in order to save lives. However, I would EXPECT to be punished for doing so.

I would not want my GOVERNMENT torturing people because an institutional policy of cruelty and inhumanity is not what I expect as an American. Too protect our values, I'd rather lose lives. And isn't that what we're doing now? Losing lives in Iraq to save "our values". Haven't we lose the PR war because of this issue? That's what's heartbreaking. How do we expect to bring democracies to the world when we can't follow our own rules? Mock me for being naive, but shouldn't that same mocking be applied to Bush when he thought invading Iraq would lead to democracies in the Middle East. You can't ridicule those of us for being impractical when this war was premised on the same. (and no arguments that invading Iraq was due to Osama, it's just not true)

This isn't a strange topic. Losing your morality to save lives is a topic of many books--Heart of Darkness, Lord of the Flies. Are we the same after being in combat? Do you think we're the same or react the same? I know earnest moral soldiers and I also know soldiers that enjoy combat. Would I give the latter a free rein to torture people? No. Do we want to walk down that slippery slope? No.

You throw out strawman scenarios so let me throw one right back.

If your son is trapped in an underground coffin and you have 10 possible suspects. How many of those folks do you torture for information?

Also, how do you trust any of the information that you receive?
Haven't you read all the papers on the high percentage of false information received through interrogation (especially interrogation derived through pain)?

Since you bring up WWII, I'll toss in an aside. Yes, I'd rather lose 5,000 lives than imprison Japanese Americans during WWII. I'd like to think the soldiers that lose their lives protecting our rights wouldn't want our government abusing those rights.

I'm weird in the way that I find it humorous that whites pretend they know what discrimination and persecution is like. I find it ironic that Japanese Americans were put in internment camps, blacks were definitely 2nd class citizens while German POWs were allowed leave while on US soil. Unfortunately, as a former grad student of Ted Ropp (in military history), that's what I think about when asked to analyze these issues.

PS well my reference to Lord of the Flies is an overstatement about saving lives, but most of you will get my point.

[DukeHorn]

And isn't this the core issue:

93LegendTi has Israeli relatives that died fighting in the Middle East. I had relatives that were thrown in internment camps in the US.

We came at this issue with very different life backgrounds. My family has suffered under this government. I went into law and military history because I would like to believe in the rule of law. Anyway, food for thought.

And considering that I made a number of my friends mad when I told them that the Lynch and Tillman episodes were obviously doctored by the military, I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Of course, when I was right, they were sort of astonished. But my thesis was on military propaganda and the first line was "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually isn't"

[Marco]

hmmmmm....How many wars are named after religious holy days?

JG- Where are you going with this? What do you mean?

[93legendti]

hmmmmm....How many wars are named after religious holy days?

JG
Well, some call it the October War (or the Ramadan War), if you prefer. Some call it a continuation of the 100 Year War between Israel and her nighbors.

It happens to be a particluar fascination for me, as the high water mark of the Syrians on the 1rst night of the War was a spot very near where I swam every Saturday in summer for 6 years - I was there less than 2 months before the Syrians attacked.

I call it the Last Great Land War.

The name was given by Israel, since that was when she was attacked - because she would be at her lowest state of preparedness, with most of her soldiers fasting. In fact, commanders who had never done so, ate when they got the warning war would break out in a few hours. Such was the disbelief of their soldiers, that they ate in front of their men, according to my friend Gen. Kahalani. It's a good thing too, because his G'dud 77, 40 tanks (out dated British Centurions) in all, knocked out more than 260 Syrian, state of the art tanks and hundreds of APC's in a no-stop battle that lasted 80 hours.

Why do you ask?

[93legendti]

And isn't this the core issue:

93LegendTi has Israeli relatives that died fighting in the Middle East. I had relatives that were thrown in internment camps in the US.

We came at this issue with very different life backgrounds. My family has suffered under this government. I went into law and military history because I would like to believe in the rule of law. Anyway, food for thought.

And considering that I made a number of my friends mad when I told them that the Lynch and Tillman episodes were obviously doctored by the military, I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Of course, when I was right, they were sort of astonished. But my thesis was on military propaganda and the first line was "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually isn't"

See, as DH says, you can't say either side is wrong. Most sides of a debate have merit. It depends upon your perspective.

Actually, no close relatives of mine died, only wounded and captured and tortured. I know many who lost loved ones, including Gen. Kahalani who lost his brother and brother in law in the YK War. And I have 3 friends who were wounded in the 2nd Lebanon War of 2006.

[avalonracing]

Reminds me of the cartoon where a couple is walking their child in a stroller on a nice day, a robber comes up and pulls a gun on the couple demanding money. The Dem/Liberal couple stands there, the husband cries and the wife is trying to understand the feelings of the robber, how his childhood created this robbery.

Same cartoon, a Republican couple instead and all you see is BAM, the husband pulls out his pistol and shoots the robber dead.

You have a child???
I'm concerned that you ARE a child.
This cartoon you mention is a good example of your overly simplistic, Republican vs. Democrats, Reagan vs. USSR, us vs. them, good vs. evil, rebels vs. the empire, Don Johnson vs. the drug lord mentality.
At some point we are supposed to grow up and realize that there are shades of gray in this world.

[Louis]

I have an idea for a capital punishment - abortion - flag burning - pedophile priest - Iraq - taxation - gun ownership - gay marriage thread. I think I'll wait a few days until the forum gets to a fever pitch of antagonism then post it. I'm sure it will make this a better place.

[Viper]

You have a child???
I'm concerned that you ARE a child.
This cartoon you mention is a good example of your overly simplistic, Republican vs. Democrats, Reagan vs. USSR, us vs. them, good vs. evil, rebels vs. the empire, Don Johnson vs. the drug lord mentality.
At some point we are supposed to grow up and realize that there are shades of gray in this world.

Your attack here makes you the child, indeed. I'm certain you agree.

The opposite is true too ya know; at some point we grow up and move away from living in the gray world, where everthing is relative. Gray is a great color for kids atmo.

[Viper]

I had relatives that were thrown in internment camps in the US.

My family has suffered under this government.

Would you be referring to WWII? When America was attacked without provocation at Pearl Harbor? Not certain of what internment camp you're referring to, but please tell the entire story with full background (America handled WWII beautifully thank God). The Japanese, Germans and Italians wanted to destroy us, ya know.

I blame America for nothing during WWII, thank God we won it. The Tripartite Pact got it's arse handed to it atmo. Dave Lettermen has the skit, 'Know your cuts of meat'...we need to remember who the bad guys where, 'Know your bad guys':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact



.

[MarleyMon]

I have an idea for a capital punishment - abortion - flag burning - pedophile priest - Iraq - taxation - gun ownership - gay marriage thread. I think I'll wait a few days until the forum gets to a fever pitch of antagonism then post it. I'm sure it will make this a better place.
Everyone is just ON EDGE waiting to see where NAHBS will be held in '09 - I'm convinced thats it. Or the eclipse and the new moon. Or a sign o' the times.

Viper - how much sugar do you eat at breakfast? No wonder you're hyper!

[Kevan]

is an element of war, always has been, always will.

I do want the see the immediate return of habeas corpus however. It's where civilization returns.

[1centaur]

I honestly don't see this topic as inherently antagonizing. Various comments here were made without aspersions to other viewpoints. It's an interesting topic intellectually.

I don't see the original question as a straw man, just as a catalyst to flesh out the limits. For example, if I say "what if you know" and get back "what if you don't know" I don't see that as responsive. Let's say the kidnapper has told the interrogators the set up, pre-torture. So that they DO know. It's legitimate to say, "no, torture is inherently wrong so if the kid dies the kid dies." That's essentially a pacifist's reaction to being attacked. Just stand there and be attacked. It's not inherently wrong, it's just a world view.

But I wonder how much different the collateral damage to moral rectitude is between torture and warfare where bombs are dropped and civilians are killed by the thousands. That's the nature of war (in the last 100 years). Seems like non-torture believers might also believe in no wars other than defending our shores after being attacked. Even if a foreign dictator was waving around nukes and other WMDs on TV and boasting about soon selling them to the highest anti-American bidder, for example.

I am interested in anti-torture rationales since most statements against torture really don't address the costs of non-torture and thus are one-sided; moral superiority without consequences. I'm looking for thoughts beyond the typical. I understand the other side of the equation - just trying to understand both points of view more fully.

[DukeHorn]

Wow, Viper

Since I don't know your education level. I'm going to assume that you really didn't know that American citizens were put into internment camps during WWII (like my parents) because otherwise you're a true *** gloating about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

The funny thing is that Italian Americans and German Americans weren't treated the same way.

In 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation stated that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership",[6] and beginning in 1990, the government paid reparations to surviving internees.

[weisan]

If we choose all or nothing, we will get nothing.

[DukeHorn]

If we choose to be evil, we are evil....

[weisan]

Evil is not a choice. It's who we are.

[DukeHorn]

Very true, laws are what keeps the savage beast at bay.

[weisan]

No, the law expose evil.

[DukeHorn]

And 1centaur, I think I addressed part of your issue when I stated that institutional torture is a slippery slope since, through natural selection, those that would conduct the torture would be the ones that enjoy and would abuse such power.

[bigbill]

I have been serving in the military for almost 23 years. I fight wars for a living. I hate war, war takes me away from my family and causes people to want to shoot at me and I might have to kill them in return. I don't want to do that.

I love riding my bikes. I love everything about cycling, even shimaNo. I also love Italian red wine, especially Cannonau. I love talking about cycling with other cyclists who are as passionate as I am.

[Viper]

Wow, Viper

Since I don't know your education level. I'm going to assume that you really didn't know that American citizens were put into internment camps during WWII (like my parents) because otherwise you're a true *** gloating about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

The funny thing is that Italian Americans and German Americans weren't treated the same way.

Welp, it was one of three choices I gave you, Japanese, German or Italian. Assume that I gave you one of three choices.

Welp the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. You left that one out. Let's talk about Pearl Harbor. Let's talk about the real interment camps in Germany. Let's talk about how GREAT America is! Your parents should blame the Japanese government for declaring War on America. Your folks should blame Japan, not America.

Thank God America saved the world from the Japanese, Germans and Italians in WWII! And note: I ride Shimano once in a while, love German beer, drive BMW and date Italians so don't grab any cards in the deck that don't exist Duke; Japan declared War on America and Japan got it's arse handed to it. For that, I am very happy. While it's disappointing your folks were placed in a camp, it's Japan's fault, not America's.

America went to Europe to destroy internment camps. America went to Asia to defeat a nation who declared War on us. My Uncle landed in Normandy. American blood was shed all over the globe in WWII. I blame the bad guys (they were the bad guys back then atmo). One can try to revise history, but it is what it is.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm

[DukeHorn]

/shrug, guess you're in total nonsensical troll mode. Amusing to attack when I'm at work, less so after the kids are asleep.

Just trying to parse your logic that Japanese Americans should blame the Japanese for being imprisoned by Americans. Sort of like African Americans should blame God for being black since they enslaved by whites. Not exactly but close.

Anyway this was fun, no rain in the forecast tomorrow so will be up early to take the Merlin out.

[Louis]

Your parents should blame the Japanese government for declaring War on America. Your folks should blame Japan, not America.

So once the US is attacked that absolves us of all responsibility to act in a lawful manner, and any misbehavior on our part is actually the fault of the original attackers? Now I understand the last few years.

[bigbill]

I'm going to bad post myself.

edit: it won't let me. Someone please bad post me to get this thread locked and/or deleted. This forum is better than this.

[Viper]

/shrug, guess you're in total nonsensical troll mode. Amusing to attack when I'm at work, less so after the kids are asleep.

Just trying to parse your logic that Japanese Americans should blame the Japanese for being imprisoned by Americans. Sort of like African Americans should blame God for being black since they enslaved by whites. Not exactly but close.

Anyway this was fun, no rain in the forecast tomorrow so will be up early to take the Merlin out.

Horrible analogy above. America fought itself from 1860-1865 because we needed to acknowledge the rights of all men.

America is not perfect, nobody and nothing is. My bloodline faced a Potato Famine in Ireland, talk about death and when my grandparents came to America, they were treated like dirt. Nobody ever had it easy, all races can lay claim to a point in time where they had it rough. You don't think Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche rode knowing the pride back home for a country which had it tough?

I stand firm, Japanese Americans who were placed in a camp in WWII should blame Hirohito for waking a sleeping giant. We were awakened again on 9/11/01. I'm just exhausted of those who take glee in attacking America when they don't have a leg to stand on. When America is wrong, I'd be the first to admit it, but WWII? :confused:

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make it a trolling post Duke and we do disagree. What is cool is that Japan and America are great friends, strong allys now, very cool cat atmo:

[Ray]

Torture should NEVER be the policy of the US Government. It's immoral, but that's almost just an luxurious nicety in time of war, although I'll defer to JimCav and others with actual experience on this and acknowledge that its important then too. But, regardless of the morals involved.... It exposes our soldiers to even more of it in return and nearly a certainty of it if we do it and condone it too. It doesn't friggin WORK - ask the Mossad. And it totally lowers us to the level of our worst enemies - see reasons one and two above.

They hypothetical is always raised of "what if a terrorist has information about a bomb that's about to go off and kill thousands of civilians and torturing him will allow us to save those people?" First off all, it doesn't happen like that often enough to base a policy on it. Second, torture has been proven over the years to get you the answers you may think you want, but not the truth, and in the hypothetical, only the truth will save those people. And finally, if a military officer or CIA agent or WHOEVER does something that is not within the legal bounds of US policy in a situation like that and actually DOES prevent the attack and save all of those people, there isn't an American alive who would prosecute him or her for that.

So, no, it should NOT be the policy of the US government. Ever. For both moral and pragmatic reasons. And if it is used one in a million times and actually works, we turn out heads to it. But you don't set our whole intelligence operation loose with it around the world. Hell no.

-Ray

[Ray]

When America is wrong, I'd be the first to admit it, but WWII? :confused:
You can make a very strong case that our use of the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the worst use of warfare against civilian targets in the history of humankind. You can call it terrorism. 9-11 pales in comparison. You can argue that it may have ultimately save lives, even Japanese lives, and you might very well be right. You can also argue that it was different because it was an attack against a country that was actively and formally at war against us, which 9-11 wasn't, although a lot of Arabs thought that was the case whether the war against them was declared or not.

My father probably lived long enough to plant the seed that became me because of those bombs and Japan's relatively quick surrender. So, I'm conflicted, but there sure isn't much black and white there. And, to the extent there is, it doesn't come down in our favor.

-Ray

[Viper]

You can make a very strong case that our use of the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the worst use of warfare against civilian targets in the history of humankind. You can call it terrorism. 9-11 pales in comparison. You can argue that it may have ultimately save lives, even Japanese lives, and you might very well be right. You can also argue that it was different because it was an attack against a country that was actively and formally at war against us, which 9-11 wasn't, although a lot of Arabs thought that was the case whether the war against them was declared or not.

My father probably lived long enough to plant the seed that became me because of those bombs and Japan's relatively quick surrender. So, I'm conflicted, but there sure isn't much black and white there. And, to the extent there is, it doesn't come down in our favor.

-Ray

The bombs will remain a part of history. Japan would not sign a treaty, they would not surrender. Truman was left with sending in hundreds of thousands of American men to take Japan. Lose dozens and dozens of thousands of US men or not?

We now know Germany was only months away from having it's own bomb.

I struggle with feeling sorry for a bully who starts a fight, then loses; Japan and Germany lost (Italy was smart enough in time)...but America lost so many of our boys. I doubt most know that the name of U2's 'Unforgettable Fire' from 1984 was about those bombs over Japan...

The fact remains, America was attacked without provocation at Pearl Harbor and at the World Trade Center. And who do we blame? Simple. We blame them.

I'd warn the Democratic Party of this...should you trumpet the noises of Gitmo, evoke stories of WWII and Japanese internment camps...you will lose the 2008 Election before it begins. Americans are aware there is a very, very real enemy out there (maybe not Iraq so much) and Americans will vote for the man/woman they feel will make the safety of America it's # 1 priority.

The gloves are off. Leave us alone, period. Another attack on America and they'll be rockets with red glare. Should McCain win, it will be primarily due to the notion that Americans will believe, "He'll keep us safe." atmo. And torture? McCain went through a horrific time, as did many in Vietnam.

Churchill, Truman, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, Charlton Heston, Henry Fonda...these are names which will be remembered from WWII as the good guys...I don't know of any good guys from the other three sides atmo.

On topic: we have a camp, Gitmo and due process...they behead their kidnapped prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

Also, Japan was far less than ideal when it came to 'torture':

http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/

[3chordwonder]

I struggle with feeling sorry for a bully who starts a fight

Exactly.

Dear Viper, please stop pissing in the pool of a perfectly wonderful bike forum.

Thank you,

On behalf of myself, and no doubt a lot of other regular Right Wingers, Left Wingers, Inbetweens, Agnostics, Atheists and Believers on this forum.

[Blue Jays]

/\/\ What does that mean? http://www.sportbikeworld.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm going to bad post myself.

edit: it won't let me. Someone please bad post me to get this thread locked and/or deleted. This forum is better than this.

. . . at the beginning of the thread. Why was this thread even started? I wonder why I'm even reading it--like the train wreck you see coming, but can't look away. I've been on the forum for five years and in all that time, I am certain I've never seen so many people flaming each other over things that have absolutely nothing to do with cycling. Of course someone will probably tell me to just use my ignore button or to "grow up" or "this only reflects the real world" but why should it?

As respectfully as I can say it--can't all you folks who want to discuss and attack each other over the election or torture or whatever politically charged subjects simply go find a political forum somewhere else and leave the rest of us alone to talk about bikes--or at least about cycling related issues?

BBD

[93legendti]

. . . at the beginning of the thread. Why was this thread even started? I wonder why I'm even reading it--like the train wreck you see coming, but can't look away. I've been on the forum for five years and in all that time, I am certain I've never seen so many people flaming each other over things that have absolutely nothing to do with cycling. Of course someone will probably tell me to just use my ignore button or to "grow up" or "this only reflects the real world" but why should it?

As respectfully as I can say it--can't all you folks who want to discuss and attack each other over the election or torture or whatever politically charged subjects simply go find a political forum somewhere else and leave the rest of us alone to talk about bikes--or at least about cycling related issues?

BBD
Dave, I wonder if you have posted a like sentiment in one of the dozens of threads started by those forum members blasting the President, Romney or any other Republican. I am not trying to call you out, but I wonder why now, why in THIS thread?

[keno]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=torture+and+morality, read all of the underlying material and come back when finished.

keno

[Chris]

The inability to separate people of the same race from the acts of their country absolutely amazes me. I am dumbfounded by some of the statements I have read here stating that Japanese AMERICANS had internment coming or that the millions of people evaporated by the atomic bomb should have known better. Absolutely stunning.

As for torture, how about this for an argument against it? At a time earlier in our country, we helped craft a little document called the Geneva Convention, which stated that we would not torture others and that we expected the same. It seems pretty simple and straight forward to me. That's as black and white as it gets Viper. When you start making cases where torture is okay, you inject a lot of grey, and you release our enemies from any culpability when they torture our own. Like it or not, those are called war crimes. While war may be a necessary evil, over the millenia, there have become certain standards of war that have been adopted by all but the reprehensible; no torture, minimize civilian casualties, no shooting those who surrender, and on and on. When we start behaving outside of these maxims, we become no better than the tyranny we are trying to overcome.

[capybaras]

you people are killing me. :crap:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Dave, I wonder if you have posted a like sentiment in one of the dozens of threads started by those forum members blasting the President, Romney or any other Republican. I am not trying to call you out, but I wonder why now, why in THIS thread?

This one is just the last straw. I'm just getting sick and tired of signing in, seeing half a dozen new threads, and the majority are people arguing over politics. And that's what it inevitably turns into. Flaming argument. I don't care about any of the candidates. The political process will go on no matter whether I care or not or whether I argue with people about it or not. Then in November I will be left to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I am far more concerned that a place that is usually civil has morphed into a flame filled semi-wasteland during this political season. Can anyone make any reasonable argument that a discussion about the relative merits of torture has any place whatsoever in a cycling forum? Granted I've been on a few century rides that ended up feeling like torture, but that's as close as it comes for me . . .

BBD

[malcolm]

Viper, I too am a fan of Americas role in WW2. I'm not sure how I feel about the bomb. You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of WW2. I just wonder how you rationalize the Japanese Americans not only being put in camps but having all their property taken away and most I don't think was ever returned. I'm a proud American probably to a fault, but I think rounding up the Japanese Americans and penning them up is one of our great misdeeds.

[paczki]

The bombs will remain a part of history. Japan would not sign a treaty, they would not surrender. Truman was left with sending in hundreds of thousands of American men to take Japan. Lose dozens and dozens of thousands of US men or not?

We now know Germany was only months away from having it's own bomb.

I struggle with feeling sorry for a bully who starts a fight, then loses; Japan and Germany lost (Italy was smart enough in time)...but America lost so many of our boys. I doubt most know that the name of U2's 'Unforgettable Fire' from 1984 was about those bombs over Japan...

The fact remains, America was attacked without provocation at Pearl Harbor and at the World Trade Center. And who do we blame? Simple. We blame them.

I'd warn the Democratic Party of this...should you trumpet the noises of Gitmo, evoke stories of WWII and Japanese internment camps...you will lose the 2008 Election before it begins. Americans are aware there is a very, very real enemy out there (maybe not Iraq so much) and Americans will vote for the man/woman they feel will make the safety of America it's # 1 priority.

The gloves are off. Leave us alone, period. Another attack on America and they'll be rockets with red glare. Should McCain win, it will be primarily due to the notion that Americans will believe, "He'll keep us safe." atmo. And torture? McCain went through a horrific time, as did many in Vietnam.

Churchill, Truman, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Roosevelt, Charlton Heston, Henry Fonda...these are names which will be remembered from WWII as the good guys...I don't know of any good guys from the other three sides atmo.

On topic: we have a camp, Gitmo and due process...they behead their kidnapped prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

Also, Japan was far less than ideal when it came to 'torture':

http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/

What in God's name does this have to do with Japanese-Americans? Should we have rounded up Irish-Americans when Ireland sent an envoy to Hitler's funeral! I hope you're just being a troll because this is just wrong -- morally and factually.

[Ray]

This one is just the last straw. I'm just getting sick and tired of signing in, seeing half a dozen new threads, and the majority are people arguing over politics. And that's what it inevitably turns into. Flaming argument. I don't care about any of the candidates. The political process will go on no matter whether I care or not or whether I argue with people about it or not. Then in November I will be left to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I am far more concerned that a place that is usually civil has morphed into a flame filled semi-wasteland during this political season. Can anyone make any reasonable argument that a discussion about the relative merits of torture has any place whatsoever in a cycling forum?
Dave,

I've taken part in quite a few of these and I don't think there are more than a few folks here who have descending into mindless flaming. For the most part, this is just like anywhere else that friends gather. During election season, talk turns to politics. If this were ONLY a cycling forum, I'd agree that discussion of politics has no place here. But its more than just a cycling forum. There are all sorts of off-topic discussions here because we've evolved into a group of friends with cycling in common, but plenty of other stuff to talk about, particularly in the dead of winter.

I get frustrated when I see a thread devolve into a pissing match between V and NN, with occasional chime-ins from a few other folks. Those are simple flame wars that get down to personal insults and away from the topic pretty quickly. I just ignore them. Most of us, though, on both sides of most issues, have stayed pretty civil and tried to treat the discussion opportunities to exchange ideas and debate/argue over their merits. I don't see ANYthing wrong with that.

If you don't care at all about the candidates at this point, that's your prerogative and you SHOULDN'T read those posts. Although I think staying totally disinterested this time of year can be part of what causes you to have to just hold your nose when you vote in November. I sometimes, this year included, actually find a candidate I can support. They rarely win, but they often influence the debate in ways that I think makes the ultimate nominees stronger.

The relative merits of torture have roughly the same place in a cycling forum as various other off-topic discussions about TVs, cameras (particularly the big ones that nobody is gonna carry on a bike), music, cars, watches, etc. We seem to tolerate those things - we can get through this too. There are just a small handful of posters I tend to ignore when they get into a pissing match, but otherwise find the discussions useful and sometimes interesting. Taking these discussions to a political forum just ends up being insider discussions with no good outside perspectives. I've looked in on a few and generally can't stand 'em for long. But THIS is the kind of place where 'just folks' SHOULD talk about politics and bring real perspectives to bear, just like the lunch-table or water cooler at work or at any other get together with friends.

-Ray

[93legendti]

This one is just the last straw. I'm just getting sick and tired of signing in, seeing half a dozen new threads, and the majority are people arguing over politics. And that's what it inevitably turns into. Flaming argument. I don't care about any of the candidates. The political process will go on no matter whether I care or not or whether I argue with people about it or not. Then in November I will be left to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I am far more concerned that a place that is usually civil has morphed into a flame filled semi-wasteland during this political season. Can anyone make any reasonable argument that a discussion about the relative merits of torture has any place whatsoever in a cycling forum? Granted I've been on a few century rides that ended up feeling like torture, but that's as close as it comes for me . . .

BBD
Dave, I agree, but it seems that long ago this Forum dissolved into a political forum that sometimes talks about bikes, so this is part of it. Imagine how people feel when they see 20 threads telling them how bad Republicans are; why Republicans won't be like Democrats; why all Democrats are good and all Republicans are evil; Wal-Mart; global warming, oil; anti-war and the like-- then, some one posts about guns* (a lot of people have an interest in guns here) and an anti-gun person jumps down the OP's throat--"what does this have to do with cycling? Can't you find another forum?" There is no equal time here and no middle ground from my fiends on the other side of the aisle. NONE of it has to do with bikes, and none of it helps Serotta sell bikes--but here we are.

I liked this place a WHOLE lot better without ANY political talk, but the powers that be have opened the barn door and seem to have no intention of closing it.

* guns mentioned here for illustration purposes only.

And FWIW, "political talk" that involves calling the other side extremists, loons, morons, stupid and the like, is not political talk. (I am not referring to your posts, but the vast majority of those posting about the evil Republicans.)

[1centaur]

I started it so maybe I'll end it by saying that despite it being a legitimate and interesting discussion topic, OT to cycling as many are here, the Forum group dynamics currently are not well suited to the discussion.

One of keno's google search hits brought me this, which was more in the vein of what I hoped for:

"Torture: A Collection questions whether and how torture should be exposed and regulated. The comprehensive review offered in this book advances the discussion by presenting an important assessment of the moral legitimacy of torture in extreme cases and evaluating whether the technique should continue receiving legal sanction in all cases. The considered opinions of Jean Bethke Elshtain, Oren Gross, Miriam Gur-Arye, Oona A. Hathaway, John H. Langbein, Fionnuala Ní Aoláin, Mark Osiel, John T. Parry, Henry Shue, and Jerome H. Skolnick, along with the other essayists, demonstrate that reasonable scholars committed to human rights can reach diverse conclusions."

Copyright © 2005 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College
Harvard Human Rights Journal / Vol. 18, Spring 2005

[Viper]

Exactly.

Dear Viper, please stop pissing in the pool of a perfectly wonderful bike forum.

Thank you,

On behalf of myself, and no doubt a lot of other regular Right Wingers, Left Wingers, Inbetweens, Agnostics, Atheists and Believers on this forum.

You Sir are the aggressor. Heck, you're not even an American and yet you tee off on her.

Couple things and then you and I are done.

1). Put me on ignore. I don't have you on 'ignore', I just skim over you.
2). Watch your own anger. There is a de-bate, again, de-bate on torture; it's moved onto trashing America (wow shocker there) and I WILL defend America. You may not like and I may not care.
3). I receive at least 3-5 PM's from strangers who say, "Nice job, keep it up." Your own myopic pov is your weakness, not mine.
4). I suggest you modify/edit your post.

[Viper]

What in God's name does this have to do with Japanese-Americans? Should we have rounded up Irish-Americans when Ireland sent an envoy to Hitler's funeral! I hope you're just being a troll because this is just wrong -- morally and factually.

What it means that IF America is attacked again, we *may* see a duplicate situation as we saw in WWII with Japanese-Americans; America *may* be forced to go there again. America, for it's own safety *may* have to deport more than just the Bin Laden family on secret flights out of America (as we did after 9/11).

My apologies for thinking and for thinking ahead of all possibilities and for thinking outside the box.

[Chris]

What it means that IF America is attacked again, we *may* see a duplicate situation as we saw in WWII with Japanese-Americans; America *may* be forced to go there again. America, for it's own safety *may* have to deport more than just the Bin Laden family on secret flights out of America (as we did after 9/11).

My apologies for thinking and for thinking ahead of all possibilities and for thinking outside the box.

Dude, seriously, get a grip.

[catulle]

Two wrongs do not make a right. You have to start somewhere. It's that simple.

[Viper]

Dude, seriously, get a grip.

And how so?

Look at your post, it's astonishing how those who disagree with others on this topic cannot do so without acting like a five year old. Look at your post. I replied to someone how America may react during the next attack. You don't think that's not on the board down in DC, an option?

I've got a firm grip there pal. Get an ability to write a post which adds something, offer your opinion on the topic of torture or don't feel the need to post atmo.

[Chris]

And how so?

Look at your post, it's astonishing how those who disagree with others on this topic cannot do so without acting like a five year old. Look at your post. I replied to someone how America may react during the next attack. You don't think that's not on the board down in DC, an option?

I've got a firm grip there pal. Get an ability to write a post which adds something, offer your opinion on the topic of torture or don't feel the need to post atmo.

Do your parents know you are on the internet? We have Civil Rights legistlation now that precludes such acts happening anymore. At least on American soil.

I have been constantly amazed by the hatred and prejudice you spew on this forum. I would love to know what your frame of reference is from. I have a guess that you are one of these folks on the Christian Right. Please say that you are. Please please please! Because your position couldn't be more diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ. Please say that is where you have developed your code of living.

FWIW, I have offered my opinion above on a couple of occassions. Your inability to read it and recognize it as mine despite the same authorship really isn't my problem.

[Chris]

Additionally, America was not attacked by another nation. They were attacked by a group, made up predominantly of Saudis. The only country that has been attacking other countries without provocation has been ours. Using your skewed logic, Americans abroad should be placed in internment camps to alleviate the threat that we pose to the rest of the world.

[William]

http://www.signs-up.com/prod_images/Squirrel_xing_thumb_640.jpg


http://www.maniacworld.com/squirrel-vs-penguin.jpg



Ok, resume....




William ;)

[avalonracing]

and I WILL defend America.


...BY POSTING A CYCLING FORUM!!! (and maybe a magnetic ribbon on the car).

[C5 Snowboarder]

I believe one can discuss hypothetical situations all day long without any real or firm conclusion. Until you are actually walking in the shoes of the person experiencing the real threat you do not know for sure how you will react. Each one of us can only hope the path you take is the one you say you would or will but you do not know until it is “in your face” for real. I did not know how to hate until I was 20 years old and sent to Vietnam in 1968, what a change in one’s thought process. I am sure Lt Calley and his platoon – whom I did not know – had no idea or desire to do what he/they did until the hate exceeded their ability to control it. So hypothesize on your actions on protecting loved ones but be aware when the real event comes you may choose an alternate path.

[Tom]

My old man was a slave to the Third Reich for about five years or so, having been born in Poland. He was a lucky guy, he was a just in forced labor. He said it was his experience that none of his fellows lost their humanity thoughout. Even on the dark days you'd notice a tree or something of some beauty there.

I think it boils down to whether or not you believe being evil is in fact a part of being a human. In many cases, however, that belief is grounded more in one's view of one's self than in one's view of humanity in general.

You also have to completely lose your connection to another human being, and I think there is a term for that. Insanity comes to mind.

[Viper]

...BY POSTING A CYCLING FORUM!!! (and maybe a magnetic ribbon on the car).

You can offend America and I can defend her.

It's truly so simple. Amazing. Use caps, be smug, I don't care avalonracing.

[Viper]

Do your parents know you are on the internet? We have Civil Rights legistlation now that precludes such acts happening anymore. At least on American soil.


My parents at least taught me manners, something you seem to lack. You keep with the insults and I don't know you from a hole in the wall. The topic is 'torture' Chris, whatta ya got to say on it? Nothing? Then move along Sir.

[Viper]

Additionally, America was not attacked by another nation. They were attacked by a group, made up predominantly of Saudis. The only country that has been attacking other countries without provocation has been ours. Using your skewed logic, Americans abroad should be placed in internment camps to alleviate the threat that we pose to the rest of the world.

Americans abroad are kidnapped and beheaded. Internment camps would be more ideal, don't you agree?

[jimcav]

lucky i am letting drywall joint compound dry and had the down time to read this (but most of it is crap).

TO the OP. Since entering the military 20 yrs ago, I have received instruction, read, reviewed, and in turn instructed about:
1) TORTURE: it is illegal for us to do (us being armed forces USA)
2) Torture produces very unreliable "intel"

that said, if someone takes it upon themselves to torture (or say someone in a position of authority makes a command decision to redefine it or order it done); regardless of the result, I'd expect them to be charged under the UCMJ.
Whether or not they received any significant sentence at court-martial is part of the process.

I have no expertise in civilian/criminal law. But we certainly have those laws on the books--i think they should be enforced. It bothers me that post-9/11 much of what i consider the best part of our system, the due process protections, and adhereing to the letter and spirit of the law has degraded into looking for loop-holes, or re-interpretations of ways to do things that in the past were off-limits. rendition, torture, suspension of certain rights, etc.

If it is important and essential to American safety, I think the case can be made to the congress, and the rules re-written, so that rendition is an acceptible tactic, that waterboarding is okay, that we can be in a "War" on terror, but anyone suspected of being the enemy is not a prisoner, but rather some newly legislatively defined category that has no rights normally granted to prisoners.

That is our process. I may not like all the laws, but accept the system we use. I am really disheartened when those i serve do things we have been told for years are wrong, simply because it may be expedient, then when called out on it, just say they won't do it anymore. because what is missing there is 2 things:
1st they should have gotten the rules changed before doing it
2nd, they should be held accountable for what they did (and sure it may be nothing more than being charged and aquitted for the mitigating circumstances, etc.) but the process should be used.

I expect a little more from the leaders and policymakers in the arena of the conduct of our nation's defense. Instead what i see high above me are very weasle-like lawyering efforts to ensure minimal accountability for some decidely un-American methods. I can accept those methods might be needed, but i believe until the case is made that they are needed, and the laws changed to formally allow it, then the military and all other agencies of the US need to abide by the laws we do have.

jim

[Chris]

Americans abroad are kidnapped and beheaded. Internment camps would be more ideal, don't you agree?

Again, if you can't sort through the five pages and find my posts on the topic of torture, then I am not going to hold your hand and help you. I have said what I have to say about torture. It is wrong and immoral. There is no defense for it, and that is why the position of the United States of America has been for several decades has been that we do not torture human beings. It is simple.

In regards to people being kidnapped and beheaded, what you can't seem to grasp is that this is not done by other countries but by rogue criminals. For a nation to condone and practice the behavior makes that country no better. The German officers who administrated the camps and ordered or participated in torture of humans were tried, convicted, and many hanged for their offenses. Torture is a war crime. Many would argue that what some Americans have been ordered to do may have caused them to be subject to war crime tribunals if the United States were to adhere to international law as much as it tries to enforce it.

Move along? You first. This forum was a lovely place before you came along. In my opinion, the sooner you and your hate (we all remember your contributions to the Heath Ledger thread which had to be closed because of what you were spewing) are out of here, the better it will be.

[Dave B]

I think people by nature would succumb to many things under duress.

If torture would benefit in the saving of one or many lives...in a manner of protecting, then I say so be it. With a terrorist action the person or group took the time to do evil. If your actions need to require evil to resolve it, then that is a choice you make.


With regards to war....many of you do not know what is done (in the past, present, or in the future) to stop countries from going to war. I hope this country where I lives does all it can to keep us safe. I trust my government to do so and it is my choice to live here under the freedom they work hard to provide. I have never picked up an arm to protect myself or others, but I am damn glad people have done so for me. I will forever owe my respect to those who fight with or with out violence for my freedom.

[paczki]

Move along? You first. This forum was a lovely place before you came along. In my opinion, the sooner you and your hate (we all remember your contributions to the Heath Ledger thread which had to be closed because of what you were spewing) are out of here, the better it will be.

In his defense, if it weren't for Viper we might never have seen this :)

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=476664&postcount=1

[Chris]

In his defense, if it weren't for Viper we might never have seen this :)

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=476664&postcount=1

Okay, he can stay...

[Viper]

Move along? You first. This forum was a lovely place before you came along. In my opinion, the sooner you and your hate (we all remember your contributions to the Heath Ledger thread which had to be closed because of what you were spewing) are out of here, the better it will be.

Chris, let me be crystal clear here. Your own pious, obnoxious attitude can take a long bike ride and leave your spare tube at home. You Sir are the loser for taking the low road; read your own venom and attacks...I stand firm on Heath Ledger and torture and if you don't like it, tough cookies. Your attack here only strengthens me, something you ought to know. And every time you spit out your nasty temper tantrums, I receive another PM from someone who says, "Viper, good for you."

I suggest you go for that bike ride, do the wash, clean the bathroom or the garage, something which allow you some space and time to calm yourself down.

[Chris]

Chris, let me be crystal clear here. Your own pious, obnoxious attitude can take a long bike ride and leave your spare tube at home. You Sir are the loser for taking the low road; read your own venom and attacks...I stand firm on Heath Ledger and torture and if you don't like it, tough cookies. Your attack here only strengthens me, something you ought to know. And every time you spit out your nasty temper tantrums, I receive another PM from someone who says, "Viper, good for you."

I suggest you go for that bike ride, do the wash, clean the bathroom or the garage, something which allow you some space and time to calm yourself down.

yawn...

I don't worry too much about your opinion Viper. You are welcome to it. I am okay with you being wrong on about every opinion you hold. I don't lose too much sleep over helping you gain some perspective on reality.

I do feel though that when people starting spewing this crap publically, they deserve to be countered with something sensible.

[Viper]

yawn...

Huey Lewis. Sports. Turn it on and go do some chores while listening to it. That's what you should do atmo. Ya think you'd contribute something like, "Guys, one of the worst domestic attacks this country has seen took place in my backyard on April 19, 1995. The WTC, 9/11/01, brought back painful memories of that attack and while I am against torture, if inflicting some pain on Timothy McVeigh prior to April 19, it could've somehow prevented the OK bombing...I might support it indeed. While against torture, the pain inflicted on one pales in comparison to the loss of 168 lives and the pain of 800 more..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

PS. Your personal attacks on me are cheap. I bet you ride Shimano. :cool:

PSS. I am a fan of Frank Keating atmo and I believe he WILL be in McCain's Cabinet atmo atmo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Keating

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/319128.aspx

PSSS. You mentioned Jesus before, Christianity, how it doesn't approve of torture. While I like Jesus, I love God and God was/is one tough cat. God is a Republican, Jesus is a liberal Democrat. God, very tough dude indeed.

[Chris]

Prior to that date, he wasn't anywhere on the radar as far as an imminent threat is concerned. Do we start going around and torturing anyone who is a potential threat? I guess that would mean that anyone who owns a gun or an automobile and has a dissenting view should be beaten to find out what they might do in the future? Good logic. The society you are describing is very similar to the one that we just overthrew because their government was doing that very thing to its citizens (or at least that is the third or fourth version of why we went there).

[Viper]

Prior to that date, he wasn't anywhere on the radar as far as an imminent threat is concerned. Do we start going around and torturing anyone who is a potential threat? I guess that would mean that anyone who owns a gun or an automobile and has a dissenting view should be beaten to find out what they might do in the future? Good logic. The society you are describing is very similar to the one that we just overthrew because their government was doing that very thing to its citizens (or at least that is the third or fourth version of why we went there).

So The Patriot Act is like the most evil thing since Thundercats was taken off the air, right? :rolleyes:

Will Frank Keating be a legitimate VP candidate for McCain or is he just Cabinet-worthy?

(amazing Chris isn't it, being able to 'speak' to someone you disagree with 99% of the time if you work off a basis of respect atmo-atmo).

[Chris]

PSSS. You mentioned Jesus before, Christianity, how it doesn't approve of torture. While I like Jesus, I love God and God was/is one tough cat. God is a Republican, Jesus is a liberal Democrat. God, very tough dude indeed.

That finally sealed the deal.

I have to admit that you got me. When I talk to the family members of a patient who has schizophrenia or some other psychosis, I really try to help them understand that there is no point in having a rational conversation with someone who is incapable of such a conversation. I should have taken my own advice.

You can't read just the first part of the book, Viper.

You quote Christian news organizations and then reject the teachings of the man the religion is based on? Sad sad sad. According to the doctrine, God and Jesus are the same. I would recommend that you pick up "Red Letter Christians" The book does a pretty good job of illustrating how the Right Wing and the Moral Majority have glossed over the teachings of the Christ in an effort to continue their own agenda.

[Viper]

That finally sealed the deal.

I have to admit that you got me. When I talk to the family members of a patient who has schizophrenia or some other psychosis, I really try to help them understand that there is no point in having a rational conversation with someone who is incapable of such a conversation. I should have taken my own advice.

You can't read just the first part of the book, Viper.

You quote Christian news organizations and then reject the teachings of the man the religion is based on? Sad sad sad. According to the doctrine, God and Jesus are the same. I would recommend that you pick up "Red Letter Christians" The book does a pretty good job of illustrating how the Right Wing and the Moral Majority have glossed over the teachings of the Christ in an effort to continue their own agenda.

You lack wit and humor. It's not my fault.

God = rightwing Republican, NRA member.
Jesus = radical hippy Democrat, guns, not so much.
God = Campy
Jesus = Birkenstocks
Creation vs. Evolution = Ali vs. Foreman Rumble in the Jungle and evolution wins by TKO atmo
Bible = great stories, fables pre-Aesop, I wish there were more pictures and photos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf64ZCYVcEI

[Chris]

So The Patriot Act is like the most evil thing since Thundercats was taken off the air, right? :rolleyes:

Will Frank Keating be a legitimate VP candidate for McCain or is he just Cabinet-worthy?

(amazing Chris isn't it, being able to 'speak' to someone you disagree with 99% of the time if you work off a basis of respect atmo-atmo).

I think the Patriot Act was a knee jerk reaction, and most of the points that have been challenged in court have been shown to be highly suspect.

I can't imagine Keating being the VP candidate. I hope not for McCain's sake. I may be considering voting for McCain, but having Keating on the ticket would end it for me. He is a law-enforcement guy and should serve in that capacity.

This has turned into our own little discourse. I think we have scared off the other guys. I also think we lost that basis of respect several posts back. I certainly deserve a good share of the blame on that one. The beauty of this country is that we get to have these arguments and neither of us gets hauled off somewhere because of our opinion.

I'm extending the olive branch so we might both get back to something we agree on which is bikes...

[Viper]

I think the Patriot Act was a knee jerk reaction, and most of the points that have been challenged in court have been shown to be highly suspect.

I can't imagine Keating being the VP candidate. I hope not for McCain's sake. I may be considering voting for McCain, but having Keating on the ticket would end it for me. He is a law-enforcement guy and should serve in that capacity.

This has turned into our own little discourse. I think we have scared off the other guys. I also think we lost that basis of respect several posts back. I certainly deserve a good share of the blame on that one. The beauty of this country is that we get to have these arguments and neither of us gets hauled off somewhere because of our opinion.

I'm extending the olive branch so we might both get back to something we agree on which is bikes...

**** the olive branch, I want beer.

:beer:

Okay, so Keating could be the next Homeland Security Director? Great fit, Keating knows first hand about terror. Also, what the heck happened to Tom Ridge??? He was supposed to be the next President according to my opinion.

Tom Ride might be McCain's VP and he's against waterboarding:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jIFsTo19N8Z7aMbOOQ2C-X0NmJXgD8U8JGPO1

Me? I support waterboarding. It's a baptism of truth atmo.

[Chris]

You lack wit and humor. It's not my fault.

God = rightwing Republican, NRA member.
Jesus = radical hippy Democrat, guns, not so much.
God = Campy
Jesus = Birkenstocks
Creation vs. Evolution = Ali vs. Foreman Rumble in the Jungle and evolution wins by TKO atmo
Bible = great stories, fables pre-Aesop, I wish there were more pictures and photos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf64ZCYVcEI

Sorry. It isn't your fault. I was raised in the Christian tradition, and when "Christianity" gets used as a political tool and the politics are so far removed from the actual teachings of Christ it instantly puts me on edge. It's my own little pet-peeve. I quickly lose the humor in it, seeing how that faith was manipulated over the last few years for political gain.

I'll give you that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament seem to have two distinct dispositions. If God is Campy, why can't Jesus be Shimano. I like the Jesus, and I like the Shimano.

[Viper]

Sorry. It isn't your fault. I was raised in the Christian tradition, and when "Christianity" gets used as a political tool and the politics are so far removed from the actual teachings of Christ it instantly puts me on edge. It's my own little pet-peeve. I quickly lose the humor in it, seeing how that faith was manipulated over the last few years for political gain.

I'll give you that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament seem to have two distinct dispositions. If God is Campy, why can't Jesus be Shimano. I like the Jesus, and I like the Shimano.

Jesus walks. He walks, talks and heck, if you could walk on water, would you really want a bike? :)

[capybaras]

Amen

[Frankwurst]

I really miss the early days when we actually talked about bikes . . .

BBD

Yeah. :beer:

[Viper]

Yeah. :beer:

Maybe it's just election time, etc. Soon it'll be Spring and we'll be riding, drinking beer in CT, living on Pop Rocks with Pepsi or Altoids and Pellegrino.

top secret photo of e-RICHIE on the plane to Portland and top secret picture of a Portland chica and she's saying, "Where the **** is atmo himself?"

[AgilisMerlin]

viper..........


that your sled ?http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=38219&stc=1

[Viper]

viper..........


that your sled ?http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=38219&stc=1

Yes Sir. Will you overlook my politics now? :D

[csm]

I can not believe this thread did not get locked. we are getting progressive.

[Viper]

I can not believe this thread did not get locked. we are getting progressive.

No, we're getting Pinarellos. :beer:

[csm]

I never really like pinarellos. It would be torture of sorts to have to give up my legend for one.

[Blue Jays]

I've got a well-worn Pinarello that continues to provide wonderfully reliable service. What a fantastic investment I made (as the original owner) many moons ago.