Hor's versus Ottrot ST ride quality?

[A1A]

Hi,
I've owned an Hors Categorie for about 7 years putting thousands of miles on it and loving every one of them. Having said that I've been eyeing the Ottrot ST's since they came out. I've been seriously considering selling my Hor's to buy an Ottrot ST but the "trade difference" is obviously going to be pretty steep. Can someone with direct experience with both give me an idea of what the change might bring, both positive and negative? I do a lot of long training rides and some masters level racing. I know a lot of riders still dearly love the Hor's but I'd love to hear from someone who may have made the switch and whether they felt it was worth the expense? Just owning an Ottrot St would be sweet but I'm not really interested in spending a few grand just to gain some "zoot" factor. Any advice would be tremendously appreciated!!

[vaxn8r]

I'd try to ride one befoer making the leap. Even if it means a trip to find a dealer.

[Ahneida Ride]

Hi,
I've owned an Hors Categorie for about 7 years putting thousands of miles on it and loving every one of them. Having said that I've been eyeing the Ottrot ST's since they came out. I've been seriously considering selling my Hor's to buy an Ottrot ST but the "trade difference" is obviously going to be pretty steep. Can someone with direct experience with both give me an idea of what the change might bring, both positive and negative? Any advice would be tremendously appreciated!!

Call Rick Trainer at Mtn Cycology .... Ludow Vt.
Rick is a cool dude .... Loves to talk about bikes. Definitely call him.

MOUNTAIN CYCOLOGY
5 Lamere Sq.
Ludlow, VT 05149
(802) 228-2722
Serotta Bike Fit Technician: Rick Trainer


Rick has owned and ridden both extensively.
He currently owns a HC Cross and a Ottrott ST Road.
He old Road was an HC.

Rick's wife rides an Ottrott HC with no elastomers! ;)
I do believe it was the last Ottrott HC manufactured.

[SoCalSteve]

Hi,
I've owned an Hors Categorie for about 7 years putting thousands of miles on it and loving every one of them. Having said that I've been eyeing the Ottrot ST's since they came out. I've been seriously considering selling my Hor's to buy an Ottrot ST but the "trade difference" is obviously going to be pretty steep. Can someone with direct experience with both give me an idea of what the change might bring, both positive and negative? I do a lot of long training rides and some masters level racing. I know a lot of riders still dearly love the Hor's but I'd love to hear from someone who may have made the switch and whether they felt it was worth the expense? Just owning an Ottrot St would be sweet but I'm not really interested in spending a few grand just to gain some "zoot" factor. Any advice would be tremendously appreciated!!

Just curious as to what kind of answers you are expecting...On the difference between the Hors Cat (rear end) and the St (rear end) or the whole bikes.

I own one of each and have spent many a thousand miles on each...I would be more than happy to talk to you about the differences.

Shoot me a PM or an email with what you are really interested in knowing about.

Steve

[saab2000]

Just curious as to what kind of answers you are expecting...On the difference between the Hors Cat (rear end) and the St (rear end) or the whole bikes.

I own one of each and have spent many a thousand miles on each...I would be more than happy to talk to you about the differences.

Shoot me a PM or an email with what you are really interested in knowing about.

Steve

No PMs. I want to hear the answers.

There is something about that Ottrot ST that intrigues me. I used to ride down hills in Switzerland that were the reason for the ST I think. Keep that rear planted.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[SoCalSteve]

No PMs. I want to hear the answers.

There is something about that Ottrot ST that intrigues me. I used to ride down hills in Switzerland that were the reason for the ST I think. Keep that rear planted.

Inquiring minds want to know.

You want answsers, I'll give you answers!!!

If you think that the ST rear end will keep the rear end of the bike planted on down hills, the DKS rear end does it even better...

There's your answer...

Just sayin'

Steve

PS: If you want to know about the whole bike (Gestalt) of it all...thats a different answer.

[Dekonick]

The fat guy speaks

I find the HC really holds descending. My hills are nothing compared to anything in the Alps, but do have lots of corners that scare my other steel rides.

For a Lug like me the HC rocks.

:)

[brians647]

You want answsers, I'll give you answers!!!

If you think that the ST rear end will keep the rear end of the bike planted on down hills, the DKS rear end does it even better...

There's your answer...

Just sayin'

Steve

PS: If you want to know about the whole bike (Gestalt) of it all...thats a different answer.

I'm curious to hear your impressions too. Maybe the other posters are looking for a specific answer, but the Gestalt of the bike is what really appeals to me - all elements of the machine give it a certain character. That's what I'd like to hear about.

I hope you don't mind me butting in. Sorry you chimed in yet? :D

[SoCalSteve]

I'm curious to hear your impressions too. Maybe the other posters are looking for a specific answer, but the Gestalt of the bike is what really appeals to me - all elements of the machine give it a certain character. That's what I'd like to hear about.

I hope you don't mind me butting in. Sorry you chimed in yet? :D

Here's one answer:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=212721&postcount=1

Feel free to ask specific questions...

Steve

[saab2000]

I am thinking particularly of one turn of about 120 degrees about 1 km from the summit of the Passhöhe Hulftegg in Kanton Thurgau, about 25 km from my house in Pfäffikon. On the south side. Descending at about 65 KPH we had to use the brakes hard because you really couldn't go around the corner at more than about 15-20 KPH. Why? because even in perfect Switzerland the roads had some ripples in it. Some of the dudes had better technique than others but the fact was that at anything more than about 20 kph the rear wheel would lose contact with the ground on those ripples. And it was steep.

But what scared me about the ST system (apart from the fact that it was new and unaffordable for me) was the fact that in order to gain that suppleness downhill I was convinced that something was given up going uphill. This was a climb of about 5 km and was a regular part of everyone's training regime in my neighborhood.

If I could be convinced of the efficacy of the system at high torque going uphill I am sure I could be convinced of it going downhill.

I would love an Ottrott ST BTW. It is on my eBay shortlist (along with Look 481s and 585s....)

[SoCalSteve]

I am thinking particularly of one turn of about 120 degrees about 1 km from the summit of the Passhöhe Hulftegg in Kanton Thurgau, about 25 km from my house in Pfäffikon. On the south side. Descending at about 65 KPH we had to use the brakes hard because you really couldn't go around the corner at more than about 15-20 KPH. Why? because even in perfect Switzerland the roads had some ripples in it. Some of the dudes had better technique than others but the fact was that at anything more than about 20 kph the rear wheel would lose contact with the ground on those ripples. And it was steep.

But what scared me about the ST system (apart from the fact that it was new and unaffordable for me) was the fact that in order to gain that suppleness downhill I was convinced that something was given up going uphill. This was a climb of about 5 km and was a regular part of everyone's training regime in my neighborhood.

If I could be convinced of the efficacy of the system at high torque going uphill I am sure I could be convinced of it going downhill.
I would love an Ottrott ST BTW. It is on my eBay shortlist (along with Look 481s and 585s....)

I think in all things in life, there are compromises...

Thats why the ST came out and the DKS went away, I believe (I could be wrong). But, when chatting with Ben S. at a Cycling Show in LA in 2002, he kind of alluded to that...

Just sayin'

Steve

[SPOKE]

my 2 cents is this......
the ride qualities of both bikes are greatly inflenced by the chainstay selection. if you have the HC built with the standard CS offering then i feel like th rear end of the bike moves around too much. while climbing steep hills you can actually feel the rear of the bike "squat" with each downward pedal stroke. does this make the bike slower going up the hills......i doubt it........will YOU like that feeling.......hmmm.
this same thing happens with the ST rear but not as much because the seatstay setup is vertically stiffer.
now if you are a powerful rider and/or weigh over about 160lbs i strongly suggest that you spec your ST bike with the OS (stiffer) chainstays. this will still give you some decent compliance over expansion joints and washboard type of pavement but it will still accelerate quickly with out feeling mushy.
hope this helps..... :)

[Sandy]

I own a Ottrott ST, but not an Hors. I think that perhaps we might be overlooking important differences in the two bikes that Spoke touched upon-

The Hors is an older Serotta model than the Ottrott, ST or non-ST model. In addition the Hors is an all ti bike whereas the Otrrott is a carbon/ti product. Moreover, most Hors would probably come with an F1 fork or perhaps an Ouzo Pro, whereas most Ottrotts would probalby come with a F2 or F3 fork. In addition, the Ottrott could be tuned via tube selection, that undoubtedly could not be done with the older Hors and older tubing choices. I had the choice of regular chain stays or oversized, 4 levels of tubing stiffness- soft, medium, firm flex, and stiff (not called that now), and one of two stiffness levels for the ST rear. I chose the firm flex tubing, softer of the two ST rears, and oversized tubing. In addition I have the F2 fork.

The bikes are just too different to simply look at the rear of the two. I would say however, that I would think that a typical Hors would give a more compliant ride in the rear and would not be as resposive to pedal input as the Ottrott ST or Ottrott.

I have never heard anyone give anything but exemplary comments on the ability of the Hors to descend- both in adhesion to the road and ride quality. I would think that you will not, however, get many riders who think that an Hors is as efficient in transferring pedal input into forward motion as an Ottrott. At least that is how I see it.

Two different bikes and you just can't isolate the rear of the two bikes to tell the difference in them. You ride the whole bike.


Sandy

[mcteague]

Here's one answer:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=212721&postcount=1

Feel free to ask specific questions...

Steve
However, the Kirk was the only one of three actually made for you. Don't you think this may have had more to do with the "Gestalt" than what rear end it had?


Just askin'.

Tim McTeague

[CNY rider]

However, the Kirk was the only one of three actually made for you. Don't you think this may have had more to do with the "Gestalt" than what rear end it had?


Just askin'.

Tim McTeague

I think that the Ottrott is one awesome bike.

I bought a used one a couple years back. It was a real beauty. Unfortunately it was built for a much bigger, more powerful rider. I SO wanted to love that bike forever.

It was for sale again a couple of months later. Just didn't ride well at all for me. For the right person, I'm sure it's wonderful.

I also now have an Hors. Only got a couple of months on it this fall, so I'll have to withold judgement until next summer. But so far I like what I have seen.

Never underestimate Serotta's ability to make a great bicycle for you, no matter what model. But the corollary is that somebody else's custom may look like it fits you but still clearly be the wrong bike for you.

[Climb01742]

i've owned both. i did feel the hors "squat" when force was applied, especially while standing. never felt that with the ottrott ST.

another difference might be the wide range of tubing options you can get with an ottrott now. serotta could really tune its ride to your specs.

[palincss]

Hi,
I've owned an Hors Categorie for about 7 years putting thousands of miles on it and loving every one of them. Having said that I've been eyeing the Ottrot ST's since they came out. I've been seriously considering selling my Hor's to buy an Ottrot ST but the "trade difference" is obviously going to be pretty steep. Can someone with direct experience with both give me an idea of what the change might bring, both positive and negative? I do a lot of long training rides and some masters level racing. I know a lot of riders still dearly love the Hor's but I'd love to hear from someone who may have made the switch and whether they felt it was worth the expense? Just owning an Ottrot St would be sweet but I'm not really interested in spending a few grand just to gain some "zoot" factor.


What then are you hoping to gain by spending a few grand?

[swoop]

think of adding carbon to ti as a way to stiffen the ti ride up sans weight penalty.
and think of adding ti to carbon as a way to liven the carbon up without making a mushy bike.

what you'll get is a slightly more muted ride than your ti bike, but a sharper ride for the added stiffness in the right places (if you go that route).

my all ti bike is like a bentley and my ti carbon bike is like a lotus.
part of it is in the geo and part of it is in exploiting the materials natural personality.
i wanted a glassy all day bike and loved the ride of all ti for that. so i went with a lower, longer classic euro road geo,
for theother bike i went with a much higher shorter nervous bike .


you can build essentially the same bike in both materials. you'll just notice on bike is slightly more muted.

so its all in how you approach it.

both are just bikes. if they fit and are aligned.. its all just details.

[Smiley]

I have owned and loved my Hors since the first time I rode Ben's when he visited me here in DC. I have ridden his Ottrott ST when he re-visited as well ridden this bike a few times at an Open house or two. For me the Ottrott has a BB stiffness to want, BUT the overall stiffness of the frame was not to my liking. I did buy a CDA with steel stays ( my Uniscasi ) which like the Three bear story is JUST right for stiffness and compliance. BUT when I chose to ride on really torn up roads the bike I take will always be my Hors which rides like no other for these bad roads.