Interesting rumour

[Roy E. Munson]

Wow, I just saw the list of athlete's rumoured to have tested positive in Athen's, GA, for doping. If it's true, IF, then it's pretty interesting stuff!

[Russell]

I heard about the guy on Jittery EPO, but who else? Are these just rumors or backed up by facts?

[LegendRider]

Where can I find the list? A hint would be appreciated.

[bulliedawg]

I live in the Classic City, and I haven't heard anything about it.

[LegendRider]

Russell - are you sure you're not thinking of Bergman on Jelly Belly? I've heard nothing about any riders on Jittery Joe's or anything relating to Athens, GA.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . about the Twilight Criterium? Or the Tour of Georgia? Were these blood or urine tests? Who's on the list? Where's the link?

Please don't tease us like this, Roy!

BBDave

[Roy E. Munson]

On August 19, I'll revisit this thread to verify if it was in fact rumour, or truth.

[LegendRider]

Here's a lead:
www.stolenunderground.com

Plus, check out Matt DeCanio's writings on www.racelistings.com

[bostondrunk]

For gods sakes, when will north american riders learn how not to get caught?!?! Do we need better masking agents, or better tapering techniques? Come on guys, get the program right!

[Roy E. Munson]

Now that took some digging, although it's not my source. I didn't hear it through an internet post.

I believe stolenunderground is actually Matt Decanio's site.

[Roy E. Munson]

Little Chris Horner sat in a corner
Eating his curds and whey,
Along came a spider,
Who sat down beside him
And said, "August 19th could be a big day for you!"

[bostondrunk]

Wow, I would have never suspected that horner doped....you know, the way he has totally dominated the last few years.....never entered my mind that he could possibly be doping............... :rolleyes:
But its probably just an isolated incident, right guys???

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and I largely agree personally with DiCanio's assertions.

But NOWHERE in his writings on racelistings does he mention any specific names. Your suggestion that Horner uses these products is, at best, unproven.

If you have seen a list, then let's have it and the link where we can see it or your source for it. In that case someone else published and you are merely repeating what you have read. Otherwise, as a journalist I suggest you might want to go review the legal definiton of libel.

BBDave

[bostondrunk]

Maybe Aug. 19th is his birthday, and thats why its a big day for him?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Bbd

[Roy E. Munson]

BumbleNuts,

I hope you write better than you read, or else you're dead in the water as a journalist. :D

From one of my previous posts in this thread

I didn't hear it through an internet post.

[bostondrunk]

I just read Matt Dicanos latest writings from Aug. 11th about how he has a team of spies working for him now.
This guy is a wacko, and is himself a cheater anyway. I'm sure the TDF riders really have any desire to talk to him and give any info.

[my2cents]

re: matt decanio

oh, i get it. a former doper who remains a depressed drunk with pathetic training habits can break a mt climb record because, in large part, he finds motivation thru supporting victims of rape wants his accomplishments praised and accepted at face value, but he will not extend the same curtesy to lance who trains as hard if not harder than anyone (even all you who think he dopes also believe that he trains as hard and as smart as anyone, right?), lives a near perfect year round athletes life, and gets unmeasurable motivation from the cancer community. lance is a fraud but this guy is the real thing? I support his goal - a dope free peleton, but this guy is, based on his own writings, a deeply disturbed hypocrit and i'm of the opinion that his website and the approach he takes to combat the problem is mean-spirited and likely does as much harm to his cause as it does good.

[bostondrunk]

amen :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . also has a good point. DiCanio makes some valid assertions and observations, but he might not be the best person to make them.

And Roy, perhaps you could borrow my glasses, because I also said " . . . or your source for it."

Regardless of your sourcing, this is a sore subject for many people, and the Internet is a very large, but surprisingly intertwined community. Companies and individuals can easily do searches for references to them on the web.

The definition of "libel", from http://www.lectlaw.com/def/l032.htm . . .

<<LIBEL - Published material meeting three conditions: The material is defamatory either on its face or indirectly; The defamatory statement is about someone who is identifiable to one or more persons; and, The material must be distributed to someone other than the offended party; i.e. published; distinguished from slander.>>

I believe you have met all three conditions . . .

BBDave

[davids]

BumbleNuts,

I hope you write better than you read, or else you're dead in the water as a journalist. :D

From one of my previous posts in this thread
Mr. Munson,

Since you're accusing others of poor reading comprehension, you might want to take another look at what BBD wrote:

If you have seen a list, then let's have it and the link where we can see it or your source for it.
No need for ad hominem attacks. Stick to the subject.

[oracle]

but is not an internet salon more of a discussion than a periodical piece? i wonder if slander would be more specific to the nuances of the 21st century internet conundrum of conversation by means of text. where are the lawyers? bring on the thought police.

[alembical]

I personally do not see the big deal. Roy started off by acknowledging that it was a rumor, that he would revisit to see if it was true or not. No libel there. If Roy had said that he knows for a fact, or he saw Horner shooting up EPO, that would be different. Libel has one strong defense and that is if it is true, no libel. Roy said there are rumors that.......; and that is a true statement.

Alembical

[Russell]

Russell - are you sure you're not thinking of Bergman on Jelly Belly? I've heard nothing about any riders on Jittery Joe's or anything relating to Athens, GA.

Probably, my mind isn't what it used to be.

[oracle]

i quite agee, alembical.

[Bruce K]

In fact, if you read Velonews, the UCI attempted to test several teams (including the Germans) and was sent packing by the IOC as having no jurisdiction at the games.

I thought April 1 was several months ago.....

Let the games begin!

BK

[Roy E. Munson]

alembical,

Thanks for poining out what I intended in that post to those that missed. I purposely said rumours, and I even went so far as to not publish any suspected riders names. When asked, I provided the name of one suspected name, I did not comment on their guilt or innocence. Oh quick, someone sue me, there must be something I said to sue me for.

[oracle]

you can breathe easy, roy boy, i dont think you'll wind up in the hoosecow.

[bostondrunk]

OK Roy, now that we all kosher....
Name some names baby!!!!!

I heard a rumor that dbrk was caught using EPO for increased typing endurance. This may not be true.......... :banana:

[max_powers]

After reading about the things about the girl (and seeing that photo) and all this junk these riders do to their bodies (and minds), I was riding and thinking that I want to *enjoy* riding and training, but winning never comes easy, therefore being a pro must really have its pressures. Which in turn spoils the rides.
WE are blessed by the enjoyment of this sport.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . information unless it can be verified by two separate, indpendent, documented sources. This establishes either the truth of the information legally, or establishes due diligence on our part to check the veracity and restrict our liability--and hopefully both. Reporting some sort of information as being a "rumor" does not protect us from libel charges. If we hear rumors that the mayor is having an affair with his secretary, we darn well better make sure they are true before we report them or the mayor can sue us and win, even if we do report them as rumors.

One of the most important reasons for the user agreement on this forum is to restrict the legal liability of Serotta for situations like this, where unsupportable defamatory statements may be made by members . . . And don't think no one is looking. We get letters all the time from companies retained by trademark holders to monitor use of their trademarks in the media. That's why a Kleenex is always a "facial tissue" in the media, or it's a "personal watercraft" instead of a Ski-Doo.

That being said, my personal feeling is that DeCanio's knowledge is probably reliable--there may indeed be an expanding doping problem in the domestic peloton. But we should be careful of accusing individuals for the above reasons--and also because it's just not nice.

BBDave

[alembical]

BBDave,
We do not publish information unless it can be verified by two separate, indpendent, documented sources. This establishes either the truth of the information legally, or establishes due diligence on our part to check the veracity and restrict our liability--and hopefully both. Reporting some sort of information as being a "rumor" does not protect us from libel charges. If we hear rumors that the mayor is having an affair with his secretary, we darn well better make sure they are true before we report them or the mayor can sue us and win, even if we do report them as rumors.
I agree with you have said, but the difference I see is that (& I mean no harm to Roy) if Roy says something on this forum and the NY Times publishes something (& for a profit, but that is another issue) the public's perception of those 2 is quite different, although it may be the exact same allegation. We (rightfully so) hold our media to a higher standard.

Alembical

[bostondrunk]

Sow how the heck does the enquirer stay in business???

[Andreu]

Exactly inebrieted fellow from Boston.
Plus....
It is a bit rich to start quoting libel law regarding a relatively benign forum post after some of the posts I have read on this forum about drug use and alleged drug use. And other comments about people we either don't know or we don't have all the facts about e.g. Messers Armstrong and Lemond.
F**k me, if bumbers is right then every forum on the internet is doomed because we won't be able to say anything about anyone. Very very boring prospect.
A :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I should have just stuck to "It's not nice" . . . because it isn't.

The Enquirer stays in business because A) they are rolling in cash, and B) the large majority of "celebrities" are just going to let it slide because if they make a big deal out of it then it just ends up making it worse.

BBDave

[Roy E. Munson]

How about anyone who wants to talk law and legal bullschit go to some legal forum where you can hang out with other lawyers or people interested in law? I bet that's an interesting forum........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[oracle]

it think it is quite appropriate that dave sets our ethical guidelines on the forum, and keeps us up to date on the standards, or double standards that we should adhere to.

[va rider]

No need to pick on us lawyers, I have plenty of people lined up outside my office willing to pick on me. And some of us lawyers actually do stuff that even you might find interesting. (otoh, maybe not).

Now, back to the subject at hand, who's shootin up?

[bostondrunk]

I would prefer Roy set our guidlines. As he pointed out, this isn't a law forum, nor a church group. If people can't take a little ribbing, rumor talk, whatever, then IMHO they are way too sensitive. I don't think anyone has crossed any boundaries here.
Look at dbrk, I give him grief at every possible moment about his 10000 word essays, but the man knows I'm joking (kind of...)... :beer: :banana:
Lighten up folks <burp>.
Where is our other lawyer Kevan? Doesn't he usually step in and shut these threads down?!?!?! :p

[BumbleBeeDave]

I should have added that the chances that Chris Horner would actually sue Roy are remote, at best. But I guess what I was trying to say in my own sometimes overly obtuse way was that there are good legal and courtesy reasons that we should watch things like this. I think that in the absence of any concrete proof of wrongdoing then I just have to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, because that's the way I would want to be treated.

For example, I don't particularly admire Richard Virenque. I have my suspicions about his cycling performance based on his previous record. But they are just that--suspicions. I feel I have to give him the benefit of the doubt, no matter my personal opinion of him.

We should avoid these kind of specific accusations because it is the fair and right thing to do, not just because it's libelous.

BBDave

[Needs Help]

it think it is quite appropriate that dave sets our ethical guidelines on the forum, and keeps us up to date on the standards, or double standards that we should adhere to.

My tally so far:

1) It's ok to cheat on your taxes if you don't want to pay them.

2) It's ok to post professional photographer's images without their express permission, if you want to see them.

3) It's not ok to talk about suspected drug rumors because it's the fair and right thing to do.

[csb]

'bumblenuts' nice

[Dekonick]

WOW! I just read what BBD said...

The mayor is having an affair? Really? WOW! :D

EPO wont help Douglas with his writing endurance... Perhaps some Meth might be in order... :rolleyes:

[bpm]

I was just reading some of Decanio's rantings. I won't argue about who is and isn't doping, but I think this guy's logic is a bit screwed up. He sets a record up Mt. Lemmon in miserable weather and with lousy training. He takes the lead in the GP de Beauce against some of the best riders in the world. He insists he did this dope free but at the same time expects us to believe everyone else is doping. If it's possible for him to accomplish even just these two achievements dope free, then surely it must be possible that there are other clean racers winning races, but he apparently doesn't believe that.

If we his logic, then he must have been doping when he set the Mt. Lemmon record and took the lead at GP de Beauce.

[Climb01742]

'bumblenuts' nice

brevity, wit, soul of.

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<1) It's ok to cheat on your taxes if you don't want to pay them.>> . . . Not sure where this came from. Am I supposed to have said this? I commend your reading speed to have gone through all 1500 of my posts to find this--IF I said it, which I doubt.

<<2) It's ok to post professional photographer's images without their express permission, if you want to see them.>> . . . If you are speaking of the tour photos, that was OK'd with the State Photo Center of AP in Washington, whose rep said they don't mind if it is not for profit--which posting on our forum definitely is.

You have some interesting opinions, Roy . . .

BBDave

[Roy E. Munson]

BBD

I never stated those things you attribute to me. How dare you accuse me of saying those things. Expect a call from my lawyer. :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

They were written by “needs help.” My apologies for the mistake in that particular post. That’s what comes from doing this at work with interruptions.

However, now that I think of it, you DO often have some interesting and thought-provoking opinions! ;)

PM if you want the phone number. I’m sure your lawyer would love to talk with me . . .

BBDave

[oracle]

well, i guess you can't please everyone.