Pedal Stroke Questions

[Sandy]

I have been trying to improve my pedal stroke this winter, using a trainer for the first time.

Questions-

1. It is easiest to make a smooth pedal stroke if you sit up in the saddle. As you sequentially go to the tops, hoods, and drops, the angle of your leg at the hip changes which makes it increasingly more difficult to pedal in a smooth manner and come up and over the top in the stroke. Hard do you determine the optimal positioning of yourself on the saddle to maximize efficient and smooth pedal stroke?

2. Most cyclists, I think, move back on their saddles when climbing and sit up. I think that allows one to more easily incorporate the glutes in climbing and makes breathing more efficient. But if you rotate your back at the hips forward and down, you place much more of your body weight on the pedal which makes it easier to push a bigger gear as your body weight works for you in the stroke. The glutes seem to be a key muscle group in climbing because of the power they generate. I am learning that they are probably the most important, followed by the hip flexors, as the quads easily and naturally push down and the calves tend to easily follow the glutes and the quads in the stroke, with the hip flexors being the weakest and the most difficult to efficiently use to pull back and around in the stroke). So how do you efficiently use the power of the glutes and at the same time rotate your back forward and down to place more of your body weight on the pedals to assit in generating power?

3. My left leg is weaker than my right leg. How do I compensate for such in the pedal stroke?

4. I tend to pedal with my heels in and my toes out. Hence I purhased Look pedals (CX-6 and CX-7)that allow adjustment of the q factor. Prior to using the Look pedals, I would rub my ankles against the crankarms. I feel as if I would like my feet closer in. So that each foot would rotate in a plane closer to and more parallel with the plane of the frameset. I think that I could generate more power and have a more natural stroke. Anyway of compensating for a pedal stroke that is heels way in and toes out, without increasing the q factor so I don't rub my ankles against the crankarms?

Thanks for any insight into any of the questions asked.


:) Smoothly Spinning Smoooooooth Serotta Sandy :)

[andy mac]

this may help. a free download from the guru at:

http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm

cheers,


:beer: :beer: :beer:

andy

[paczki]

this may help. a free download from the guru at:

http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm

cheers,


:beer: :beer: :beer:

andy


Thanks for sharing those.

[Too Tall]

Best advice I ever got from Bobby "The Bullet" Phillips...."You see my friend if you want to go fast do this...when one pedal comes up push it down and keep doing that".

Lose the gimmicks and just pedal your bike. I know Sandy, he's no Eddie but he's all right :)

[dookie]

using a 'trainer', or rollers?

the latter will make you smoooooooth in a hurry. takes all the overthinking out of it too...if you can stay on and ride straight and at a high cadence, you're pretty darn smooth already. just a thought...

[R2D2]

Have you ever had cleats adjusted with R.A.D. device?
Just wondering, as that's where I would start.

[zap]

cut-edited

I have been trying to improve my pedal stroke this winter, using a trainer for the first time.

Thanks for any insight into any of the questions asked.


:) Smoothly Spinning Smoooooooth Serotta Sandy :)

What do dogs do?

When are we going to ride on the road again?

[FMS_rider]

I too am trying to work on my pedal stroke --Ti Design's posts were the inspiration. Over the past 2 years I have noticeably increased my power and endurance on hills (and decreased my fibromyalgia pain) by doing yoga and Emma Colson's stretching routines (practiced at home where only my family can laugh at me).

Unfortunately, the improvements from yoga and stretching seem to have leveled off and I was thinking that I would only be able to make further progress by increasing my mileage, which will have to wait until I retire. However, during my rides this winter I have been following Ti Designs' approach and I am quite sure that it is working (my avg speed over hilly routes has increased). I find his basic theory to be brilliantly simple (i.e., it seems obvious but only in retrospect), but learning to do it is taking a lot of practice. I know it would be much easier to learn on a trainer as he advises, but I hate that damn thing and love riding in snow and ice, so I am stubbornly persevering.

I REALLY WISH TI DESIGNS WOULD DO A VIDEO!

Lew

[Fixed]

Best advice I ever got from Bobby "The Bullet" Phillips...."You see my friend if you want to go fast do this...when one pedal comes up push it down and keep doing that".

Lose the gimmicks and just pedal your bike. I know Sandy, he's no Eddie but he's all right :)


my high school swim coach ..hey coach how do i get faster ? ...
coach says easy swim faster
cheers

[FMS_rider]

One more thing: ~3-4 years ago I spent considerable time on my trainer and at the gym doing one-legged drills to increase my efficiency, but I really couldn’t detect any improvement on the road. However during a recent fitting I discovered to my surprise that I can now pedal rather effortlessly with either leg alone. I am quite sure it is a result of a substantial strengthening of my hip flexors and core muscles from the yoga, even though I only do the most basic moves. Other benefits from the yoga include an improvement in my position on the bike, and probably of greatest significance, the ability to take in a lot more air from strengthening my respiratory muscles and improving my breathing technique. So, if you can stand some embarrassment (my biggest hurdle to getting started) I would highly recommend yoga.

In fairness I should add that I am really slow and don't know what the hell I am talking about --but I'm not exactly proselytizing anything new --just echoing what you have read over and over on this forum from others who are fast and knowledgeable, and confirming that it does work for at least one old guy.

Lew

[regularguy412]

2. Most cyclists, I think, move back on their saddles when climbing and sit up. I think that allows one to more easily incorporate the glutes in climbing and makes breathing more efficient. But if you rotate your back at the hips forward and down, you place much more of your body weight on the pedal which makes it easier to push a bigger gear as your body weight works for you in the stroke. The glutes seem to be a key muscle group in climbing because of the power they generate. I am learning that they are probably the most important, followed by the hip flexors, as the quads easily and naturally push down and the calves tend to easily follow the glutes and the quads in the stroke, with the hip flexors being the weakest and the most difficult to efficiently use to pull back and around in the stroke). So how do you efficiently use the power of the glutes and at the same time rotate your back forward and down to place more of your body weight on the pedals to assit in generating power?
:)<snipped>

IMHO, I think it's important to learn to pedal efficiently in _ALL_ these body positions. In my experience, a cyclist uses each position from time to time during a ride/race, depending on the need at hand. For me, I find that riding in the drops helps me corner and descend better -- so that's when I typically use that position. For cruising on the flats or hanging in a breakaway, I find myself more comfortable with my palms on top of the ends of the hoods -- in a sort of a time trial or pursuit position. For climbing, I always slide back on the saddle and use the 'piano playing' position with a light grip on the flat tops of the bar. That's not to say I'm a 'great' cyclist. But the trick, to me, is to use the various positions enough to become comfortable in each one. Having a bike that properly fits, _AND_ having a properly fitted position makes efficiency in many positions possible.

When I was first learning to pedal properly, I wasn't on a bike that the geometry really 'fit' me just right. I didn't know that at the time. It only took me six years or so to figure it out. When I finally got fitted for my CSI, it seemed like everything started falling into place. It took me about a year on the CSI to get used to the 'new' position, but I'd never go back to that old geometry again. I also concentrated on pulling my foot back through the bottom of the pedal stroke -- from about 4 pm to about 8 pm of the stroke when viewed from the drive side. An experienced racer told me, " Just pull back through the bottom and everything else will take care of itself." I still use this philosophy today. I never really stop working on my stroke, because I think I can always get better. Just ride that new bike lots and you'll see.

:)

Mike in AR

[Ti Designs]

1. It is easiest to make a smooth pedal stroke if you sit up in the saddle. As you sequentially go to the tops, hoods, and drops, the angle of your leg at the hip changes which makes it increasingly more difficult to pedal in a smooth manner and come up and over the top in the stroke. Hard do you determine the optimal positioning of yourself on the saddle to maximize efficient and smooth pedal stroke?

It's all about hip angle. There is a limit to your range of motion - I've never met anyone who could keep their back flat and bring their knee up to their nose. The trick is keeping your pedal stroke within your range of motion, otherwise you're pushing one pedal over the top with the other foot and wasting energy in the process. The position at the tops is going to be the easiest to get the pedal around because it takes some angle out of the hip. The position out at the end of the hoods is going to be harder, but you should be within your range of motion or it's probably time to change your position on the bike.

My method of fitting and Paul Levine's (who was teaching the Serotta Fit School when I went) go in different directions when it comes to the position in the drops. Paul sets people up within their range of motion based on flexability in the drops. I use the slow one leg pedal stroke to tell where the range of motion ends, and I'm only concerned with the tops and hoods. The drops are for getting the center of gravity low, that may be within the range of motion for some but even us old, fat guys need to get around a corner...

2. Most cyclists, I think, move back on their saddles when climbing and sit up. I think that allows one to more easily incorporate the glutes in climbing and makes breathing more efficient. But if you rotate your back at the hips forward and down, you place much more of your body weight on the pedal which makes it easier to push a bigger gear as your body weight works for you in the stroke. The glutes seem to be a key muscle group in climbing because of the power they generate. I am learning that they are probably the most important, followed by the hip flexors, as the quads easily and naturally push down and the calves tend to easily follow the glutes and the quads in the stroke, with the hip flexors being the weakest and the most difficult to efficiently use to pull back and around in the stroke). So how do you efficiently use the power of the glutes and at the same time rotate your back forward and down to place more of your body weight on the pedals to assit in generating power?

To best understand how the glutes are used, eliminate all other muscle groups from the picture. Don't think about your position as a static thing, think about your body weight as part of the power being put into the pedals. Watch an old clip of Greg Lemond climbing if you want a good example, the body weight drops into each pedal stroke. You also need to control where you're pushing down, only from 2:00 to 4:00, then wait for the other pedal to come 'round. Also, change how you think about pushing down. If you're sitting in a chair and you look at your foot and think "push down" your quad fires. It's the wrong muscle for the job, and if your chair has wheels you just gave yourself a ride across the room. Think about taking the weight off your hands (you'll need a big gear for this) and the back foot and push down at the knee. You should be able to fire just the glutes. If you can't tell which muscle group is working but you're turning a huge gear on the trainer you're probably doing something right.


3. My left leg is weaker than my right leg. How do I compensate for such in the pedal stroke?

Keep the work load the same on both sides. The glutes isolation work needs to happen with both feet clipped in, but the strain on the muscles is based on the resistance, gear and leveraged body weight, so as long as you don't gain or lose lots of weight from one pedal stroke to the next you should be fine. When isolating the other muscle groups you'll work one leg at a time, and limit the workload of the stronger leg to that of the weaker.

Having suffered a pinched nerve in my back which left me with only 20% of my strength on one side I know this routine all too well.

4. I tend to pedal with my heels in and my toes out. Hence I purhased Look pedals (CX-6 and CX-7)that allow adjustment of the q factor. Prior to using the Look pedals, I would rub my ankles against the crankarms. I feel as if I would like my feet closer in. So that each foot would rotate in a plane closer to and more parallel with the plane of the frameset. I think that I could generate more power and have a more natural stroke. Anyway of compensating for a pedal stroke that is heels way in and toes out, without increasing the q factor so I don't rub my ankles against the crankarms?

R2D2 has the right answer. R.A.D. pedals are a measuring device. You've lived this long with your knees moving in a certain orbit. This is probably not the time to force a change on them, so we try to work within natural rotation.



As for those who feel that to ride a bike better you should just ride the bike more, Sandy has been frustrated for a number of years with that advice. I use the example of the new golf player. The young kids go out and try to crush the ball, and spend lots of time in the woods. Maybe in a season or two they've learned how to hit the ball straight, maybe not. The old guys watch the young guys searching the woods for little white balls and hire the golf pro who has them slow down and learn the swing. I'm no golf pro but I've learned enough from my past coaches and various fitting and riding schools, and I own some very ugly shoes...

[swoop]

one can't help you with you pedal stroke without seeing you pedal and trying to figure out what you're compensating for or if its an expression of your natural gate, a muscle imbalance, a poor fit, bad shoes/feet, or a weak core.

if you just want the short cut to becoming efficient on a bike... nothing teaches economy like motorpacing. sitting on the tail of a motorbike or open hatchback at 35 miles an hour spinning out a hard gear and trying to not recruit any muscles but the ones that propel you forward... while not passing out.... will force you into an efficient 'stroke'.

in the absence of a car or motorcycle.. pick out some the local strong guys and do a rotating single pace line and don't let it get below 30... and keep it going for an hour.

i will argue that i suck royally on a bike.. but when i tried to get serious like only a 40 year old 12k dreamer can... doing this went a long way for me.

the other way is to put in the hours and concentrate on what youre doing. push a big gear and recruit all the muscle groups... teach yourself.
watch guys that do it for a living.


for you... seeing how much you think and think.. i'd just encourage you to ride and push yourself. put in the hours.... or focus the riding that you're already doing. try to ride beautifully.
atmo.

you can fix leg strength in the gym. individual leg presses on the incline bench do a lot of good.

[rsl]

I have been trying to improve my pedal stroke this winter, using a trainer for the first time.

2. Most cyclists, I think, move back on their saddles when climbing and sit up. I think that allows one to more easily incorporate the glutes in climbing and makes breathing more efficient. But if you rotate your back at the hips forward and down, you place much more of your body weight on the pedal which makes it easier to push a bigger gear as your body weight works for you in the stroke.

:) Smoothly Spinning Smoooooooth Serotta Sandy :)

These are good questions, and I read that post by TiDesigns awhile back too, and have been trying to work on that while on the rollers this winter.

It's entirely possible that I've misunderstood the post, but when I try to ride while rotating my hips forward, I get some fairly uncomfortable pressure in the, ahem, area-where-men-don't-want-pressure. Am I misunderstanding the position, or is this a fit/saddle placement issue?

[Ti Designs]

It's entirely possible that I've misunderstood the post, but when I try to ride while rotating my hips forward, I get some fairly uncomfortable pressure in the, ahem, area-where-men-don't-want-pressure. Am I misunderstanding the position, or is this a fit/saddle placement issue?

I use the term "neutral spine" more than "rotating the hips" because it sets limits. The tendency for many is to go too far and wind up in extension or hyperextension of the back. If you set up a large mirror next to the trainer you should see a flat back, maybe just a slight bit of flex. From there you play with saddle tilt and even saddle type. The saddles with rise to the nose and tail can be worse for this, the saddles with flat sit bone areas or cut-away sections tend to be a bit better. Saddle selection is a personal choise, don't go by what someone else likes.

[Ti Designs]

if you just want the short cut to becoming efficient on a bike... nothing teaches economy like motorpacing.

If you can't hit the ball straight, hit it hard???

[e-RICHIE]

If you can't hit the ball straight, hit it hard???
that's so craigs listmo atmo.

[swoop]

If you can't hit the ball straight, hit it hard???


no.. it teaches efficiency in real time.

[Ti Designs]

that's so craigs listmo atmo.


Sorry, let me 'splain. I've learned how to do many things, and for my complete lack of talent I do them pretty well. Never have I thought "this isn't working, I'll speed it up some and see how that works". Motor pacing to smooth out the pedal stroke is throwing him in the deep end. I've had people tell me "I'm smooth in a big gear but not a small one". No they're not! The force behind the big gear masks the problems, it doesn't get rid of them. Put force gauge pedals on and then tell me how smooth you are in a big gear...

[Ti Designs]

no.. it teaches efficiency in real time.


I tried to learn a Keith Emerson piano piece in real time once...

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry, let me 'splain. I've learned how to do many things, and for my complete lack of talent I do them pretty well. Never have I thought "this isn't working, I'll speed it up some and see how that works". Motor pacing to smooth out the pedal stroke is throwing him in the deep end. I've had people tell me "I'm smooth in a big gear but not a small one". No they're not! The force behind the big gear masks the problems, it doesn't get rid of them. Put force gauge pedals on and then tell me how smooth you are in a big gear...
that's better -
it's all about the word countmo atmo.



ps
arrange disorder
:confused: :confused: :p
:p :rolleyes: :p
:) :cool: :D

[Viper]

Sandy,
1). Strengthen your left leg.
2). You mention you pedal 'duck footed', the foot listens to what the knee and hip tell it to do.
3). Cut down on the pizza this winter, I know you love it. :D
4). Go pet your dogmo. :)

All the answers are here atmo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVAvxGDjlpM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2dkT2sIug&feature=related






.

[soulspinner]

Sorry, let me 'splain. I've learned how to do many things, and for my complete lack of talent I do them pretty well. Never have I thought "this isn't working, I'll speed it up some and see how that works". Motor pacing to smooth out the pedal stroke is throwing him in the deep end. I've had people tell me "I'm smooth in a big gear but not a small one". No they're not! The force behind the big gear masks the problems, it doesn't get rid of them. Put force gauge pedals on and then tell me how smooth you are in a big gear...

The faster spin just shows the flaws more, and eventually you bounce on the saddle. :p

[flux]

It's all about hip angle. There is a limit to your range of motion - I've never met anyone who could keep their back flat and bring their knee up to their nose. The trick is keeping your pedal stroke within your range of motion, otherwise you're pushing one pedal over the top with the other foot and wasting energy in the process. The position at the tops is going to be the easiest to get the pedal around because it takes some angle out of the hip. The position out at the end of the hoods is going to be harder, but you should be within your range of motion or it's probably time to change your position on the bike.

My method of fitting and Paul Levine's (who was teaching the Serotta Fit School when I went) go in different directions when it comes to the position in the drops. Paul sets people up within their range of motion based on flexability in the drops. I use the slow one leg pedal stroke to tell where the range of motion ends, and I'm only concerned with the tops and hoods. The drops are for getting the center of gravity low, that may be within the range of motion for some but even us old, fat guys need to get around a corner...



To best understand how the glutes are used, eliminate all other muscle groups from the picture. Don't think about your position as a static thing, think about your body weight as part of the power being put into the pedals. Watch an old clip of Greg Lemond climbing if you want a good example, the body weight drops into each pedal stroke. You also need to control where you're pushing down, only from 2:00 to 4:00, then wait for the other pedal to come 'round. Also, change how you think about pushing down. If you're sitting in a chair and you look at your foot and think "push down" your quad fires. It's the wrong muscle for the job, and if your chair has wheels you just gave yourself a ride across the room. Think about taking the weight off your hands (you'll need a big gear for this) and the back foot and push down at the knee. You should be able to fire just the glutes. If you can't tell which muscle group is working but you're turning a huge gear on the trainer you're probably doing something right.




Keep the work load the same on both sides. The glutes isolation work needs to happen with both feet clipped in, but the strain on the muscles is based on the resistance, gear and leveraged body weight, so as long as you don't gain or lose lots of weight from one pedal stroke to the next you should be fine. When isolating the other muscle groups you'll work one leg at a time, and limit the workload of the stronger leg to that of the weaker.

Having suffered a pinched nerve in my back which left me with only 20% of my strength on one side I know this routine all too well.



R2D2 has the right answer. R.A.D. pedals are a measuring device. You've lived this long with your knees moving in a certain orbit. This is probably not the time to force a change on them, so we try to work within natural rotation.



As for those who feel that to ride a bike better you should just ride the bike more, Sandy has been frustrated for a number of years with that advice. I use the example of the new golf player. The young kids go out and try to crush the ball, and spend lots of time in the woods. Maybe in a season or two they've learned how to hit the ball straight, maybe not. The old guys watch the young guys searching the woods for little white balls and hire the golf pro who has them slow down and learn the swing. I'm no golf pro but I've learned enough from my past coaches and various fitting and riding schools, and I own some very ugly shoes...

That -or- "push, pull".

[COI]

That -or- "push, pull".

+1.

Ti Designs,
You are an idiot with a certificate.

Sandy,
Just pedal your friggin bike man. For fcuk's sake!

COI

[e-RICHIE]

atmo -

:cool: :) :)
:) :cool: :)
:) :) :cool:

[swoop]

Sorry, let me 'splain. I've learned how to do many things, and for my complete lack of talent I do them pretty well. Never have I thought "this isn't working, I'll speed it up some and see how that works". Motor pacing to smooth out the pedal stroke is throwing him in the deep end. I've had people tell me "I'm smooth in a big gear but not a small one". No they're not! The force behind the big gear masks the problems, it doesn't get rid of them. Put force gauge pedals on and then tell me how smooth you are in a big gear...


true. at the same time... you gotta look at the person and see what's up and what's possible. and.. no matter how he takes this.. .. he's an over thinker of things...

so.. for all the great coaching insight you have to share.. and all the appetite there is here to learn...

sometimes you gotta look at someone before you start putting hip rotation and technique on the burner. imho, the best advice for sandy would be... to get a real life coach to ride with with the specific goal of breaking down his pedal stroke, identifying weakspots, and developing a plan.
however old he is..
i'm sure he's not gonna motorpace.. but there's a truth about putting himself in the coffin to quiet the mind.

i think your answers are good answers but the come long after showing him something and the showing him would have to come after seeing him.
we're presuming his cleats are in the right place? i haven't seen him walk? i don't know that his bike fits...

so... i'm just writing advice that's no more or less relevant given the context just to balance it out.

sandy... this is something to work on in the flesh. it could involve a chiro visit, a different shoe, a massage therapist, some weight training, a different fit.... or just rotating your hips. there's just no way to tell without seeing you and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

too tall has seen you and says you're good enough... so the answer is in the coffin. ride a lot and focus on efficiency. the advice youre asking for is so specific to you that no answer is good that doesn't involve riding with you.
or every answer is good because it could be anything.

but from what i've seen here of you.. based on the only experience of you i've had.. and having too tall who's seen you... i'd have to say the answer is don't worry about it.. just ride more.

[flux]

.. just ride more.

yeah... do this:

1/14/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout
Day Off None
Actively focus on recovery today: 1) stay off of legs all you can, 2) watch nutrition closely (healthy carbs, lean protein, and good fats), 3) stretch, and 4) drink plenty of fluids. Other common recovery aids include massage, napping, elevating legs, floating in water, and listening to music.


1/15/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout This is a BT (Break Through) workout, it is more strenuous than usual.
Bike 5:04 150km F1d
BT: Long (6+ minutes), steady climbs. 4-6% grades. Climb mostly in saddle at 80-90 rpm. Stand up on steep sections. Heart rate 2 zones. Only go above your 2a zone last 200 meters of each climb.


1/16/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout
Bike 3:45 115km F2b
Warm up 15 min. Z1-Z2/ then do 15 min. Z3 on flat-rolling @ 100-105 rpm/ rec. 5 min. then do 8 x 4 minute climbs of 6-8% grades w/ 2 min. rec. Shift to a higher gear than you would normally use for any given climb. Cadence is 40 rpm. Seated on TT bike if you have one, in aero position. Heart rate max is 3a zone./ after last rep do 15 min uphill Z3 @ 80-90 rpms. if to cold do on flats @ 95-105 rpm. Cadence is 40 rpm. Seated on TT bike if you have one, in aero position. Heart rate max is 3a zone.


1/17/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout This is a BT (Break Through) workout, it is more strenuous than usual.
Bike 5:15 160km F1d
BT: Long (6+ minutes), steady climbs. 4-6% grades. Climb mostly in saddle at 80-90 rpm. Stand up on steep sections. Heart rate 2 zones. Only go above your 2a zone last 200 meters of each climb. After 3hrs of riding do 2 x 10 min. at Z4 climbing threshold( not above, something you could hold for 30 min.) rec. 10 min. between efforts/ then do 2 x 6 min. above climbing threshold at Vo2 pace, rec. 6 min. after each effort. If possible ride last 30-40km behind the moto @ high Z2-low Z3 pace @ 95-105 rpm.


1/18/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout
Bike 1:30 45km E1a
Very easy recovery spin on a flat course. Best on road bike. Small chain ring only.


1/19/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout This is a BT (Break Through) workout, it is more strenuous than usual.
Bike 5:00 155km F1d
BT: Long (6+ minutes), steady climbs. 4-6% grades. Climb mostly in saddle at 80-90 rpm. Stand up on steep sections. Heart rate 2 zones. Only go above your 2a zone last 200 meters of each climb.


1/20/2008 Log
Workout 1
Delete Workout Move Workout Copy Workout This is a BT (Break Through) workout, it is more strenuous than usual.
Bike 6:30 195km F1d
BT: Long (6+ minutes), steady climbs. 4-6% grades. Climb mostly in saddle at 80-90 rpm. Stand up on steep sections. Heart rate 2 zones. Only go above your 2a zone last 200 meters of each climb. After 5 hrs do 2 x 6 min. above climbing threshold at Vo2 pace, rec. 6 min. after each effort. If possible ride last 30-40km behind the moto @ high Z2-low Z3 pace @ 95-105 rpm.

[Bud_E]

Wow! I can handle 1/14 and I think I can handle 1/18.

Am I ready to go pro ?

[Ti Designs]

Ti Designs,
You are an idiot with a certificate.


No, I'm an idiot without a certificate...


the best advice for sandy would be... to get a real life coach to ride with with the specific goal of breaking down his pedal stroke, identifying weakspots, and developing a plan. however old he is..

Advice doesn't get any better than that.

[girlie]

Is your name Fran?

[Ti Designs]

Is your name Fran?

I think I like getting called an idiot better...

[e-RICHIE]

I think I like getting called an idiot better...
should be a sticky atmo.

[girlie]

I think I like getting called an idiot better...


You've met Fran......now I was just askin'......not calling him any such names.

[FMS_rider]

true. at the same time... you gotta look at the person and see what's up and what's possible. and.. no matter how he takes this.. .. he's an over thinker of things...

so.. for all the great coaching insight you have to share.. and all the appetite there is here to learn...

sometimes you gotta look at someone before you start putting hip rotation and technique on the burner. imho, the best advice for sandy would be... to get a real life coach to ride with with the specific goal of breaking down his pedal stroke, identifying weakspots, and developing a plan.
however old he is..
i'm sure he's not gonna motorpace.. but there's a truth about putting himself in the coffin to quiet the mind.

i think your answers are good answers but the come long after showing him something and the showing him would have to come after seeing him.
we're presuming his cleats are in the right place? i haven't seen him walk? i don't know that his bike fits...

so... i'm just writing advice that's no more or less relevant given the context just to balance it out.

sandy... this is something to work on in the flesh. it could involve a chiro visit, a different shoe, a massage therapist, some weight training, a different fit.... or just rotating your hips. there's just no way to tell without seeing you and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

too tall has seen you and says you're good enough... so the answer is in the coffin. ride a lot and focus on efficiency. the advice youre asking for is so specific to you that no answer is good that doesn't involve riding with you.
or every answer is good because it could be anything.

but from what i've seen here of you.. based on the only experience of you i've had.. and having too tall who's seen you... i'd have to say the answer is don't worry about it.. just ride more. Swoop, I’m afraid I feel compelled to comment on some of your remarks from the perspective of another older guy --comments which I doubt you will fully comprehend for at least another 20 years (not meant as an insult --I didn’t get it either until I got old). I know that you can dismiss my comments with a few words from your golden tongue that will leave me feeling humiliated and embarrassed for days, and maybe I deserve that treatment. However I would like to ask you to please give some thought to what I have to say --if you have patients in the 60+ year old range, perhaps pretend that I am one of them.

If Sandy were under 40 and trying to move from cat 3 to cat 2, would you respond with comments like: “too tall has seen you and says you're good enough...” or, “i'd have to say the answer is don't worry about it.. just ride more”, and “at the same time... you gotta look at the person and see what's up and what's possible. and.. no matter how he takes this.. .. he's an over thinker of things...”

The first thing I want you to try to understand is that when many or most of us get older, we still feel like kids inside, and we still want to ride faster and further every bit as much as when we were younger. I probably spend 2-3 hours per day, on average, in that quest even though I always ride alone and in an area where I often don’t see a single other cyclist in an entire day of riding, and the most I can realistically hope for is to progress from something like pathetically slow to extremely slow.

With regard to your more specific advice to Sandy about coaching, cleats etc, I again don’t think you are putting yourself in his position. Although significant improvement for you would require professional coaching, specific drills, minor tweaks in position, etc, I genuinely believe that many of us older, or less experienced, or less athletically inclined folks can make significant progress with some relatively simple, self-administered techniques. Here’s what I have to offer to back that up from my personal experience:

Although I can’t prove a causal link, after doing yoga for ~40 mins per day for the past 2 years (simple routines, alone at home), I can now make it to the top of hills in an aerobic state at a pace that would have left me gasping for air and suffering for a day or two afterwards when I started practicing it, even though I have less time for riding now than I did then. Of course 20 years ago I would have been able to fly up the same hill, but I don’t care --I am proud of the fact that I am faster and have more endurance now despite an additional 2 years of aging. The yoga, together with Emma Colson’s exercises (same ones cited by andy_mac, above), also have enabled me to return to something approaching a flat back with my handlebar below my saddle. These improvements, which I did not think were possible at my age, have given me a great deal of satisfaction, and I am even beginning to think that I can ride with others without being too much of a burden.

More recently, after reading Ti Designs posts and blurbs on his web site (and distilling them into a file with lots of underlines and highlights), I have found yet another way of improving my riding (climbing in this case). I have been practicing his techniques with my 27 pound winter bike with studded tires on a long hill (8% avg gradient) for the past month or so, and can now make the top in only a slightly longer time than I could last fall with my summer bike. I am thrilled with that accomplishment --it makes me feel even more like a kid inside than usual, and I can’t wait to see how much faster I will be when the snow and ice are gone (perhaps a placebo effect, but it will keep me happy for at least another month even if it is).

I will end my narcissistic diatribe by saying that I have learned a great deal from your posts, and even though this one and a number of others have angered me, I must admit that there may be some degree of jealousy behind my remarks (the image you posted of yourself on your Seven remains in my screensaver file).

I should also say that I would have made these comments in a PM to anyone else whose posts I have followed on this forum, but based on your repeated statements to the effect that brooding is not in your repertoire I have posted them in the hope that they might ring true for a few others. (Perhaps one more bike shop employee will treat me like a cyclist rather than an old man in the future?)

[capybaras]

I think Sandy could use a reputable coach. Once a week, every other week, whatever. Someone who knows something and can look at him. I bet it would be fun and worth every frn or whatever the currency is where he lives.

[e-RICHIE]

I think Sandy could use a reputable coach. <cut>
first he has to commit to riding regularly atmo.

[flux]

first he has to commit to riding regularly atmo.

70 min every day. In the coffin. San Pellegrino and Altoids. Relentless.

[swoop]

1) face time for good advice... there are too many variables and i'd hate to think of him out there dry humping his bike trying to get something out of it.
2) ride more.
3) think less.

all coming from the best possible place and custom for the op.


there are older guys out here that shred. they only get in trouble on the bigger hills for the loss of power and the years. otherwise... there is no reason ... not to get in the coffin.

too tall has ridden with him, is a licensed coach, and sanctified his pedal stroke... my money is the riding will cure the rest.. anything more is useless until someone looks at his cleats, legs, and bike. no?

by the time folks that have ridden d-1 overseas are saying push pull... i think the hip stuff is just going to poison his particular cup of water.


if i do it right in a few years i'll be a pink prune with mirrors everywhere and a big bottle. i should be so lucky to get there.
you're always welcome on my wheel and at my table. you have any daughters?

(i'm just a guy on a bike that talks a lot.. but the work stuff is for the office. this is the escape).

[e-RICHIE]

2) ride more.
3) think less.

Swoopedia 2.0 atmo -

[capybaras]

1) face time for good advice...

This is the part that matters. The riding part is gravy.

[Sandy]

I genuinely appreciate the varied responses given within this thread, and the remarkable amount of time given to me by some. I will give my perspective-

1. Those who say that I sould think less and ride more- lots more- spin more....make a great deal of sense. Simple approach but undoubtedly that would improve my cycling. Perhaps that approach is what I should take. e-RICHIE's go out and spin for 70 minutes a day would certainly work and would produce remarkably good results.

2. I believe that one of the most important factors in cycling is pedal stroke. I know that my pedal stroke is not as smooth and efficient as it should or could be. Nor is my climbing technique very good. I want to improve that portion of my cycling and then get into better cardio shape and stronger. Repititions of a flawed pedal stroke, no matter how many, yields a person with a flawed pedal stroke. A tennis player who does not toss the ball high enough in his serve and practices serving a zillion times will ultimately have a serving motion with the same flaw- too low of a ball toss, unless he understands the flaw and works on it.

3. I wanted to learn to ride a bike from someone I respected and trusted. A cycling coach seemed to make sense to me. A local coach makes the most sense. My perception was that Too Tall was not interested, so I did not push that. Ti Designs has graciously offered his help and I have been doing some pedalling on a trainer using his philosophy which makes sense to me.

4. Unfortunately my wife had a very bad in house accident and has other health problems which did not allow me to travel to Boston for a period of time to avail Ti of his services. Hence, I must follow his advice without him seeing me on a bike, my fit, my manner of cycling....That makes coaching me very difficult for Ti, who has been a gem thus far.

5. I have adopted a truly wonderful dog from the local county rescue shelter and have spent a great deal of time with him as he has certain needs. In addition, I still have some issues with fatigue so have not spent the necessary devoted time on a daily basis that is necessary to improve.

6. I was fit by Smiley on my bike and Too Tall did set my cleats, which Smiley does also as part of a fit. Smiley has seen me ride and we have shared lots of rides so I am not riding without direction, fit wise. I also have my own thoughts which have become a little more sophisticated over time. I would like to spend a week or so in Boston with Ti, but that will probably not happen because of my and Ti's time demands.

7. I am a 67 year old cylcist who emphasizes fun and comaraderie over trying to maximize cycling potential, but even at my age and very modest ability level, do believe that I can improve my cycling, especially my climbing. I don't think that riding for fun and improvement are necessarily mutually exclusive.

8. I weighed 240 at one time last year and decided to get to 185-190 as a goal. I did get to 190. I have been between 190 and 195. Decided that now is the time to get to the 185-190 mark.

9. Have not worked on the core and overall muscular strength and cardi conditioning thus far. My fault.

8. I know that there are some here who believe that I think too much, do too little, and am much too sensitive. I agree with all three perceptions.

Again- Genuine thanks for those who have posted herein. Great suggetions and insight.


Sometimes Spinning Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

1. Those who say that I sould think less and ride more- lots more- spin more....make a great deal of sense. Simple approach but undoubtedly that would improve my cycling. Perhaps that approach is what I should take. e-RICHIE's go out and spin for 70 minutes a day would certainly work and would produce remarkably good results.
gets it atmo



7. I am a 67 year old cylcist <cut>
8. I weighed 240 at one time last year and decided to get to 185-190 as a goal. I did get to 190. I have been between 190 and 195.
whoa i did not no that.
mazol tov and kanuhura atmo
8. I know that there are some here who believe that I think too much, do too little, and am much too sensitive.
no waymo atmo.
ps: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Again- Genuine thanks for those who have posted herein. Great suggetions and insight.
we're here to incite and arrange disorder atmo.
ps: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Sandy]

gets it atmo



whoa i did not no that.
mazol tov and kanuhura atmo

no waymo atmo.
ps: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

we're here to incite and arrange disorder atmo.
ps: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Thanks for the :banana: :banana: I will eat one with my kahsa knish and no fat cottage cheese for breakfast tomorrow!! I eat a lot of them.

Fruit Salad Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks for the :banana: :banana: I will eat one with my kahsa knish and no fat cottage cheese for breakfast tomorrow!! I eat a lot of them.

Fruit Salad Sandy
kashi go lean atmo -

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/products/kashi.jpg

[flux]

Sandy,

You mentioned you wanted to be a better climber. Go climb some hills. Every ride. Climb. I am serious. It works.

[e-RICHIE]

well clarice, have the lambs stopped screaming atmo?

[swoop]

Sandy,

You mentioned you wanted to be a better climber. Go climb some hills. Every ride. Climb. I am serious. It works.


i'm inclined (its a pun) to think this guy flux knows all the things he isn't saying.. so when he says just ride.... it means something (for all the things he can say but leaves out). i'm pretty sure its tailored just for you and directed at getting you to a happy place.

[girlie]

Your body, if i doesn't naturally know, will find the answers through repetition.
Think on the bike - as you are doing it - try different things and feel which ones work.......no one would say don't think and no one says only think......
The answers are in your body if you are smart enough to pay attention.

[FMS_rider]

well clarice, have the lambs stopped screaming atmo? One, at least, is now smiling again. I love you guys.

[93legendti]

Your body, if i doesn't naturally know, will find the answers through repetition.
Think on the bike - as you are doing it - try different things and feel which ones work.......no one would say don't think and no one says only think......
The answers are in your body if you are smart enough to pay attention.
Sandy, how often are you riding these days?

[R2D2]

Hey Sandy:
If you lost all that weight you're pretty tough.
I'm no coach but can may be help a little.
I've never been able to think mysefl in to decent form.
It takes hours sweating and hurting on the bike.
I put in the time and the miles and the rest shows up.

If you want to improve your pedaling stroke:
1.Spend time spinning a easy gear on the rollers. You don't have to be spun out but try to be around 90 or so. And spend at least 1/2 hour a time doing it.
2. While spinning you're allowed to think one thought. "Circles." Just make it a subconcious thought. It seems silly at first but sooner or later you'll feel it.
Each foot seems to be applying pressure in a circle. You really notice it a lot in your calves as you pull thru the bottom of the stroke.


A number of people have given you great advice. Most importantly e-Richie
gave you the best advice last year ........ Go out and spend time (Hour plus)
just spinning (90 - 100).
Swoop kinda re-iterated . Think less and ride more.

Anyway I know you got the grit. Now put in the time.
It's hard.
I've got the same problem. A lot of "freinds" that say they'll train but I seem to end up spending a lot of lonely miles on the bike. To me that's the hardest
part. Riding the miles with no one else. Finding the internal motivation to ride the miles by myself.
I could always stop and start smoking again and sit around saying " I used to ........."
But I'm not going back there.
I'm moving forward until I get some of my Mojo back.
There's no better feeling that being strong on the bike and eating up the miles.
It hurts so good!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ti Designs]

You mentioned you wanted to be a better climber. Go climb some hills. Every ride. Climb. I am serious. It works.


Well, it works for Justin... A few years back I started coaching a girl who was being coached by a former national champion. You would think that someone who raced at that level would be thebest coach out there, but everything came way too easy for him. His best advice on cornering was "just do it", much like Justin's advice on climbing. It didn't work, nor has Sandy's past attempts at learning to climb by just doing it.

What I know about coaching didn't come from the USA Cycling coaching manual, it came from years of watching John Allis work with new riders, and getting the chance to work with new riders myself. Before you give any advice to another rider I suggest that you take someone new to the sport and try to teach them the ropes. At first you'll think they're retarded because they can't do things that you no longer have to think about. It makes you rethink things, it's no longer enough to be able to do it, you now must explain it to someone else.

Almost 10 years ago this guy from Texas won some big race in France and all of the sudden everyone wanted to ride just like him. They would use his training guidelines and pay big money to some guy named Chris who was making a living off coaching Lance. None of them reached the same heights, mostly 'cause they weren't Lance. Sandy ain't Flux.

[girlie]

Me thinks the point is "think on the bike" not off it.

If that doesn't work nothing will......point.....IT WILL WORK.
Pay attention to your body.....my 'guess' is you probably have not been concentrating while doing and if you have then you haven't been listening to the answers.
It's like trying to tell someone how to ride rollers......you can describe what it feels like, no friction, have to have even strokes......that doesn't mean their body will do it. You have to keep getting onto the rollers and YOUR MUSCLES eventually will keep you upright.....Yes you have to concentrate but that is not necessarily thinking.
Now if all of this "thinking" about how to climb and getting advice is a motivator for you - cool. But that's a different story.

[Spicoli]

I want to be ignored and insulted too! but here is what I think could help Sandy's quest...

Exspensive option #1 Get a coach and train with power meter.

Less exspensive option #2 Get a power meter and play around to see what works.

Dang cheap option #3 and gets the best result for me, "Scrape the Poo off the Shoe" on the back stroke. If you dont do it already try it, consiously thinking of it while ya pedal and odds are you are only doing it when you concentrate on it.

***"Scrape the Poo" with a watt meter and watch what happens? Now make an effort to pedal that way all the time on every minute of every ride.***

circles, circles, circles goes through your head the whole time while pedaling and your stroke will clean up. Practice, practice, practice. ;) best of luck!

circle spinning spicoli, :D see that was an easy answer...no?