Precision

[David Kirk]

Nuff said.

"Holding the top tube in place for tack-welding"

Full story - http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/13880.0.html


Dave

http://www.velonews.com/images/report/13880.21741.f.jpg

[jthurow]

Nice fixture. Looks to be infinitely adjustable.

jimi

[e-RICHIE]

*** is it with italian builders and bad hair atmo?

http://216.93.169.53/images/report/13880.21740.f.jpg

[fungusamungus33]

Some use frame jigs and still make crooked frames...

Neurosurgeons and little old Italian men have very steady hands...maybe?

[Louis]

Doesn't say anything about them also doing Colnago water bottle bosses...

[coylifut]

*** is it with italian builders and bad hair atmo?

http://216.93.169.53/images/report/13880.21740.f.jpg

i believe it's an international condition

[Karin Kirk]

Neurosurgeons and little old Italian men have very steady hands...maybe?

Yes... thanks to all that espresso.

[jmewkill]

Nuff said.

"Holding the top tube in place for tack-welding"

Full story - http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/13880.0.html


Dave

http://www.velonews.com/images/report/13880.21741.f.jpg
I understand you want the frames built after lunch

[dbrk]

It's so interesting to see how frames are built. But we should be careful about drawing conclusions about quality from brazing techniques, which, btw, I don't think DK was suggesting. (Further, btw, when JB who sees more unpainted quality frames than likely any other living being _raves_ about the quality of the work, you know you are in good company...and that would be DK.)

To the point: neither Mr Nagasawa nor Ron Cooper use(d) a frame jig. There's an amazing video of Mr Nagasawa whirling a frame around on this contraption of his invention that lets him braze quickly. Both builders are renown for perfect frame alignment. So, it can be done. I'm not at all suggesting that it's better or in any way superior to using a jig since that would be, well, silly. The point is to build beautiful frames (not necessary but the only kind I prefer) that work perfectly and, of course, perfect alignment is key. How you get there is less important than getting there, and that's no easy task.


dbrk

[swoop]

i poo'd myself a little when i saw that. imagine how they do it when there aren't any cameras around...?

[David Kirk]

Anyway you look at it you when you use this technique you are -

1) relying on the mitered top tube length to set the head angle. If you are a bit long or short your angle varies by a considerable amount.

2) you are relying on the alignment of a fork to determine the alignment of the head tube. If one fork blade is even a few thou short then the head tube will be tacked in very crooked.

3) looking at doing some serious "cold setting" to bring the whole deal into line.

In the end it of course works but how well it works depends totally on the skill and desire of the builder. A skilled builder needs little to make a bike straight and tight. It take much more time to do it but it can be done. I somehow suspect that this is not the path being taken in this case. Could be wrong and if that's the case then I apologize.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

2) you are relying on the alignment of a fork to determine the alignment of the head tube. If one fork blade is even a few thou short then the head tube will be tacked in very crooked.



Dave
that's a patelli (bologna) fixture and it does use a shop
fork to locate the head tube (and the lugs if they are
used). i was there twice in the 80s, and saw the stuff
being made en masse like it was no one's business. i
think they factored in all the peculiarities when the
manufacturing statement was conspired. iow, there
is a work station where all the 3mm errors are taken
care of atmo. i believe it's in paris. that last part was
levity atmo.

[shinomaster]

*** is it with italian builders and bad hair atmo?

http://216.93.169.53/images/report/13880.21740.f.jpg


Hey, what does you hair look like?

[Grant McLean]

Anyway you look at it you when you use this technique you are -


3) looking at doing some serious "cold setting" to bring the whole deal into line.

Dave


If the aluminum frames are being heat treated,
don't they move around like limp pasta before they cool?

I've seen them align frames at cannondale, and it didn't
look like they even needed to be straight before they
heat treated them. or i could be wrong...

-g

[e-RICHIE]

Hey, what does you hair look like?
not much better atmo -


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/1510521325_86c2f2a727_b.jpg

[David Kirk]

If the aluminum frames are being heat treated,
don't they move around like limp pasta before they cool?

I've seen them align frames at cannondale, and it didn't
look like they even needed to be straight before they
heat treated them. or i could be wrong...

-g

You are right. They are wet past until they are cooked.

Dave

[chrisroph]

I've got an old lugged ciocc that I rode the wheels off and loved in its day. its quite straight and rides beautifully.

i've still got a lugged guerciotti pista that i used to ride a bunch. its been on loan to coy for the last couple of years. the thing is kind of scary in a speed stability sort of way; it never gave me the warm fuzzies charging into turn 3 of alpenrose full guns because i never know if i could hold it down or if it was going to start feeling unstable.

i used to have a 70's vintage columbus guerciotti that had massive stays and fork blades and a really low bb. it was a good riding bike but wasn't very straight and it was a bit of a mess in the finish department. when it was being built, the rear end was all caddywampus and the boys put a string between the drop outs around the seattube, scratched their heads, and did some bending--on my brand new guerciotti. i was not happy. especially when i looked at my friends' eisentrauts. then, shortly after i got it, i was on a century in the desert without a 5mm key and the seatpost started to slip. not fun. i rode it for a while and traded it on a rickert.



i was thinking about this frame when reading the recent colnago thread....

[David Kirk]

that's a patelli (bologna) fixture and it does use a shop
fork to locate the head tube (and the lugs if they are
used). i was there twice in the 80s, and saw the stuff
being made en masse like it was no one's business. i
think they factored in all the peculiarities when the
manufacturing statement was conspired. iow, there
is a work station where all the 3mm errors are taken
care of atmo. i believe it's in paris. that last part was
levity atmo.

I hear you. The issue with this method is that any error in the tool (even if you are not using an off the shelf carbon fork as pictured) is that the error is being multiplied by the length of the fork. A very small error in the fork will be multipied in a big way by the time it gets up to the head tube.

Contrast this (for our non-builder friends) to a jig that holds the head tub by it's top and bottom in plane (there's that word again...hmmm?) with the seat tube and the BB. Much more accurate and easy to get precision results from. One is inherently fast and the other is inherently accurate but both of these methods can be used by a skilled build to put out top notch stuff if great care and time are taken.

Dave

[barry1021]

not much better atmo -


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/1510521325_86c2f2a727_b.jpg

for a nice comb-over?? :banana:

b21 (typing with similar forehead exposure)

[shinomaster]

It's not about the hair.

[Sasha18]

Those pictures say Italy to me.

Several years ago, I worked as a cook in a fine restaurant in Piemonte. The only difference between my restaurant and that frameshop is that the welders aren't smoking while they work. The haircuts, as well as the attention to detail, were the same. I won't describe the sanitation conditions in case anyone wants to eat in Italy some day.

What came out of all this chaos and squalor... marvelously delicious food. There's something about Italy that manages to make beauty out of large rates of entropy.

I'll leave the discussion about planes and alignment to those who really know these things.

[J.Greene]

could that pic just be a photo opp? Or is the cat out of the bag?

JG

[shinomaster]

Yes my picture was a photo opp.:)

[cpg]

You are right. They are wet past until they are cooked.

Dave

Except during the heat treat they tend to move around. Typically the path of least resistance. In other words, post heat treat the frame tends to end up at or near where it was tacked. I know Dave knows this so I was sparing him from typing it.

I think JG hit the nail on the head. Definitely a staged photo. There's no need for two guys to tack a front triangle. At least the guy holding the top tube closed his eyes before the arc. Guy in the background is about to see spots though.

Nice ravioli Shino. Rumor has it you're catering NAHBS. They know where you live.

Curt

[bostondrunk]

not much better atmo -


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/1510521325_86c2f2a727_b.jpg


Nice car!!!!!!! I gotta start building frames!! ;)

[J.Greene]

Yes my picture was a photo opp.:)

Your Hot!

JG

[maunahaole]

Shino, you need to back away from the kiln and get some fresh air. :p

[shinomaster]

Your Hot!

JG


Huh? I'm confused... :confused:

[Fixed]

shino nice vintage shirt cheers


atmo with the red bike looks happy imho
cheers

[Michael Maddox]

With a Ferrari---or a Richie Bike---who needs hair?

[cpg]

Notice how the painter is only wearing a simple dust mask while spraying. Bad! Especially in a production setting where his exposure to nasty stuff is high. Well, I'm sure he is...high most of the time.

Curt

[Acotts]

Nice car!!!!!!! I gotta start building frames!! ;)



Jesus, what is happening to me. I didn't even notice the car...***!!!

[J.Greene]

iow, there
is a work station where all the 3mm errors are taken
care of atmo.

My friend who worked for Ten Speed Drive says that station was here in FL back in the 80's. They had to move stuff around quite a bit. I wouldn't know, I was still chasing skirts.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

My friend who worked for Ten Speed Drive says that station was here in FL back in the 80's. They had to move stuff around quite a bit. I wouldn't know, I was still chasing skirts.

JG
don't forget -
in all those tsd catalogs they mentioned that the staff
aligns every frame they sell to a .001mm tolerance.

think about that for a moment atmo.

[sailorboy]

In the original picture, doesn't the top tube look_really_short? as in that's a child's bike short? Maybe they don't care that its that well aligned.

[e-RICHIE]

In the original picture, doesn't the top tube look_really_short? as in that's child's bike short? Maybe they don't care that its that well aligned.
we'll never know much since zinn's laptop was stolen. (http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=2&i=261915&t=261915#reply_261915)
that's the real story behind the story here atmo.

[Grant McLean]

think about that for a moment atmo.

i'd rather not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EbYmMb4lR4

g

[J.Greene]

don't forget -
in all those tsd catalogs they mentioned that the staff
aligns every frame they sell to a .001mm tolerance.

think about that for a moment atmo.

Now i think about it, that's funny. I almost bought one in 86 or 87. I bought a Waterford Paramount instead.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Now i think about it, that's funny. I almost bought one in 86 or 87. I bought a Waterford Paramount instead.

JG
okay here is the deal -
1) they had the stones to promote that they rework
the frames at all, much less to the stated tolerance.
it begs the question - what did they possibly know about
the specs for a frame that someone else labored over?
2) the .001mm is a joke. no way.

[Peter P.]

*** is it with italian builders and bad hair atmo?

AT LEAST THEY'VE GOT HAIR. I'll bet some American builders wished they had some...

[david]

Jesus, what is happening to me. I didn't even notice the car...***!!!

ditto. i was too busy checking out e-richie's vascular left leg.
are he and i the only one's with more veins in the left leg than the right?
emwtk.

[J.Greene]

okay here is the deal -
1) they had the stones to promote that they rework
the frames at all, much less to the stated tolerance.
it begs the question - what did they possibly know about
the specs for a frame that someone else labored over?
2) the .001mm is a joke. no way.

yes, that is mostly what i was thinking.

IIRC they painted them here too. That is what my friend did I think. I remember the sales pitch..."Italians build great bikes, they just do lousy paint".

JG

[e-RICHIE]

ditto. i was too busy checking out e-richie's vascular left leg.
are he and i the only one's with more veins in the left leg than the right?
emwtk.
the heart is on the left atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

AT LEAST THEY'VE GOT HAIR. I'll bet some American builders wished they had some...
most of us are over 5'6" too atmo.
sheesh.

[shinomaster]

ITCHYISSIMO!,
You said that it was SteveP's car? A real mobster mobile?

[michael white]

Looks to me like they're within .001 mm on the hair placement, anyway.

[wasfast]

Notice how the painter is only wearing a simple dust mask while spraying. Bad! Especially in a production setting where his exposure to nasty stuff is high. Well, I'm sure he is...high most of the time.

Curt

Under regular circumstances, you're quite right. Note that he's spraying into a 3 sided booth. The back wall is most certainly fan drawn.

I was a bit surprised how dirty the shop is overall, especially the paint area. If you like sanding, that's ok but I'd prefer clean.

[david]

the heart is on the left atmo -

new avatar for you.

[e-RICHIE]

new avatar for you.
did the fire speak to you atmo?


http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/9/74019-large.jpg

[97CSI]

i poo'd myself a little when i saw that. imagine how they do it when there aren't any cameras around...?Yep....they get out the jig they had hidden away for the photo op............. :D

If you notice, the frame is mounted in a jig. Much ado about nothing.

[mbrtool]

david kirk

what do you mean by "in plane" ?

[Louis]

I believe he must mean that it holds the HT in the frame’s primary plane defined by the ST and BB (and pointed at the correct HT angle).

[David Kirk]

david kirk

what do you mean by "in plane" ?

in line and parallel with the seat tube and rear wheel.

Dave

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know jack about building a bike frame. So I hope you'll bear with me and answer a few questions . . .

Am I assuming correctly that you don't have Karin come out to the garage and hold that top tube in place with her hand over her eyes while you weld it? Assuming not, how exactly do you hold the various tubes in their proper relative positions with the correct alignment while you weld? Some sort of adjustable jig that gives consistent, repeatable results?

Am I also assuming correctly that if these two Italian, er, "craftsmen" by some wild insane chance don't hold the tubes in exactly proper alignment while they tack weld them, then when the final welds are done with the frame still slightly out of alignment they will have to "cold set" it--in other words, bend it--into alignment? If this is what they do, wouldn't that end up placing unpredictable extra stresses on the various welds, compromising their fatigue life in unknown and possibly catastrophic ways?

I might trust these people to paint my bike frame, but I don't think I would want to trust a frame they have actually built going down Crawford Road hill west of Schenectady at 50mph. That's not an indictment of all Italian workmanship, just the product of this particular shop . . .

BBD

[rwsaunders]

Doesn't say anything about them also doing Colnago water bottle bosses...
.

[Samster]

It's not about the hair.
re: ravioli

shino is a god. post pics of agnolotti next...

[Samster]

I believe he must mean that it holds the HT in the frame’s primary plane defined by the ST and BB (and pointed at the correct HT angle).only a boeing guy could come up with an answer like that.

[shinomaster]

re: ravioli

shino is a god. post pics of agnolotti next...


Hmmm. I think I made some of those. Like Polish piroges? The first pix are of potato, caramelized onion, smoked fontina and parsley. Served with browned butter, sage and parmesan. Yum!
Thanks for the kind words but I am nothing of the sort.

[johnnymossville]

make me want to get out a torch and build something.

[conorb]

Nuff said.

"Holding the top tube in place for tack-welding"

Full story - http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/13880.0.html


Dave

http://www.velonews.com/images/report/13880.21741.f.jpg

Well, that's one way to do it. Not the way I would do it. :rolleyes:

At least the helper is closing his eyes to prevent burning out his retinas.

conorb

[DarrenCT]

has anyone else noticed that the guy on the left has his f'ing eyes closed?!??!

[stevep]

i visited the bob jackson factory/ store many years ago.

the only jig was a vice.
they put the bb shell in a vise and built up from there. all done by eye.

eyes closed cause the other guy is about to start the arc.

[sspielman]

I thought that I had read some quotes over the years-by framebuilders- that they thought that holding a frame rigid in a jig while joining the tubes put stresses in the frame...and that the lesser of the two evils was to cold set the frame after it was built....Just thinking about it, I couldn't imagine how one could get everything together where it needed to be without lots of help from a jig holding things right....Of course, as a consumer and not a framebuilder, I have the luxury of not getting knotted up over the process and only having to judge the final product....

*I understand that they are just tacking things together here and not doing the final joining, but was just specualting that some of the same principles may apply to aluminum....

[saab2000]

I don't know anything much either, but I would love to learn a bit. Anyway, it is my understanding that proper brazing isn't really hot enough to warp the tubes too much, meaning not much cold setting afterwards. I assume the same about proper welding. The tube would be hotter, but in a much smaller area.

Of course, I'm just a beatnik airline pilot and don't weld much. Screwed and glued (and riveted) is how our beasts of burden are made.

[barry1021]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know jack about building a bike frame. So I hope you'll bear with me and answer a few questions . . .

Am I assuming correctly that you don't have Karin come out to the garage and hold that top tube in place with her hand over her eyes while you weld it? Assuming not, how exactly do you hold the various tubes in their proper relative positions with the correct alignment while you weld? Some sort of adjustable jig that gives consistent, repeatable results?

Am I also assuming correctly that if these two Italian, er, "craftsmen" by some wild insane chance don't hold the tubes in exactly proper alignment while they tack weld them, then when the final welds are done with the frame still slightly out of alignment they will have to "cold set" it--in other words, bend it--into alignment? If this is what they do, wouldn't that end up placing unpredictable extra stresses on the various welds, compromising their fatigue life in unknown and possibly catastrophic ways?

I might trust these people to paint my bike frame, but I don't think I would want to trust a frame they have actually built going down Crawford Road hill west of Schenectady at 50mph. That's not an indictment of all Italian workmanship, just the product of this particular shop . . .

BBD

http://bikesbyzank.blogspot.com/

[Too Tall]

not much better atmo -


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/1510521325_86c2f2a727_b.jpg

Great picture, looks like they were mugging for the camera. ATMO's explaination cleared this up for me. Heck I used to throw production pottery using some very simple methods to achieve a great deal of precision. PS "simple" as in my brain. Repetition and practice of a manual process in my experience lends a great deal of precision...just sayin'.

ATMO has a pull tab??? ***????
That horse behind you looks familiar. Anybody I know?

[zank]

has anyone else noticed that the guy on the left has his f'ing eyes closed?!??!

He had better or he will have some retinal damage when that arc fires.

[shinomaster]

He had better or he will have some retinal damage when that arc fires.

ZAnk don't you braze with you eyes closed too, like a Jedi?

[Fixed]

sunburn too ?
cheers

[zank]

A blindfold takes care of the sunburn issues AND allows me to work on my Jedi skillz.

[shinomaster]

Hey Zank. You aren't going to stick my bike together while some old guy with a comb-over holds it together are you?

[zank]

Hey Zank. You aren't going to stick my bike together while some old guy with a comb-over holds it together are you?

Toby doesn't have any hair.

[Orin]

He had better or he will have some retinal damage when that arc fires.

Not to mention corneal burn that will leave him blind for a couple of days.

I'd be worried about the uncovered skin too. You can get nasty UV burns from forgetting to cover up all your skin near the arc. Even with gloves, it's known to sneak up loose sleeves or down necklines and leave a nasty 'sunburn'!

Orin.

[Tobias]

Am I also assuming correctly that if these two Italian, er, "craftsmen" by some wild insane chance don't hold the tubes in exactly proper alignment while they tack weld them, then when the final welds are done with the frame still slightly out of alignment they will have to "cold set" it--in other words, bend it--into alignment? If this is what they do, wouldn't that end up placing unpredictable extra stresses on the various welds, compromising their fatigue life in unknown and possibly catastrophic ways?Isn't bending of tubing common? Fork blades, curved chainstays and seatstays?

When (cold) "bending" tubing, the material must be taken beyond its initial yield point to achieve permanent deformation but residual stress is not too high when the load is removed. In some cases can work to one's advantage.

[Bud_E]

ditto. i was too busy checking out e-richie's vascular left leg.
are he and i the only one's with more veins in the left leg than the right?
emwtk.

I got that too. And my left leg is slightly bigger than my right. Maybe it's a cabal thing ?