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barry1021
01-04-2008, 08:42 PM
America's position in the world is falling fast. It's not just about bad choices about military intervention. In the end influence is economic; America long ago gave up its industrial leadership; we are watching the last ships sail to Trinidad and beyond with our industrial base. When I started in the investment business, GM, IBM, Ford, DuPont, Dow were world leaders-today they are rapidly becoming afterthoughts. And for every Microsoft we have several SAPs, Toyotas and Petrochinas.

No, the driver for America's place in the world has been financial leadership, Crazed dictators would rail against America and then quietly exchange their currency for dollars. For an international bank to truly be recognized, New York had to be on their business card.

Today America's biggest financial houses are being bailed out by Qatari and Singapore capital--Petrodollars sent abroad return in the form of equity in our financial giants, that are rapidly being surpassed by the UBS's of the world. The dollars continues to fall, as the Fed cuts rates to try to avoid a housing implosion. Successful companies like mine are looking abroad for growth, hiring in India, and London and Abu Dhabi.

And as an energy analyst, I watch as brain damaged politicians, motivated by self aggrandizement and not the public trust, spend billions on corn ethanol while ignoring the key issues that are sending billions into the hands of our enemies.

And stuff isn't working very well any more. Any one that rides the Commuter Rail in Boston knows that in the last months, the system has literally been falling apart; forty year old engines way beyond their natural life don't work so well in the winter. Cost cutting involves cutting conductors (my 12 pass, normally lasting 6 business days now lasts 10, as fares are not collected regularly) while leaving the bloated fat of patronage jobs for friends and relatives of inbred political hacks. Who doesn't drive in Boston and think about what could happen while crossing a bridge or entering a tunnel? Traffic backs up at rush hour while cops stand at empty construction sites earning double time. Hey, it's in their contract.

All of this might not be bad, after all. Let others bear the burden of leadership; Lord knows we have not done it well for some years. But in a world that looks to me like it gets more dangerous by the minute, I would like to think we are capable of producing more than obese children and Paparazzi.

At least we make the best bicycles in the world.

b21

Louis
01-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Petrodollars sent abroad return in the form of equity in our financial giants

Nothing wrong with that - they have to return somehow, otherwise folks wouldn't accept the $ as payment for what we buy from them. You can't expect folks to sell us stuff then just throw the $ away.

Louis

Fixed
01-04-2008, 08:54 PM
bro will we be a 3rd world country? that only sells weapons ?
cheers :beer:

ti_boi
01-04-2008, 10:23 PM
yeah....we bad. USA GDP MAP.

Viper
01-04-2008, 11:01 PM
America, you're still the one. Don't let them fool you. Europe is a trainwreck, South America is the Wild West, Mexico is just wild, the Middle East will always be wild...there's a few countries out there having fun now. America...hang on until 2020, when I'll be there for you. In 1980 a cowboy showed us the way, in 2020 a Yankee will do the same. I <3 America, you're still the one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZTNQCW_JeU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0UOZ9NHDsY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCTJmXrgsFg




.

Ahneida Ride
01-04-2008, 11:10 PM
All the US military power will not protect the frn (Dollar) hedgemony.

Rome fell thru loose as goose fiscal policy and so will we.

I engaged the young server behind the dunkin donuts counter this evening
and began to explain fed reserve notes and fraction reserve banking.

I showed a United States Note and an actual United States Dollar.

The reply was ''You lost me at the start".

flux
01-04-2008, 11:27 PM
I engaged the young server behind the dunkin donuts counter this evening
and began to explain fed reserve notes and fraction reserve banking.



why?

e-RICHIE
01-04-2008, 11:30 PM
why?
america runs on dunkin' atmo.

Ahneida Ride
01-04-2008, 11:34 PM
why?

The server said the medium Coffee was 2 dollars .... :eek:
I told her I only had frns.

manet
01-04-2008, 11:38 PM
The server said the medium Coffee was 2 dollars .... :eek:
I told her I only had frns.

c thats where a big gulp wooda impressed

flux
01-04-2008, 11:42 PM
.

avalonracing
01-05-2008, 12:00 AM
My friends, we have just been lucky enough to live in the USA at the peak of the American Empire.
I'm sure that the inhabitants of the previous empires didn't think that theirs would decline either.

Avispa
01-05-2008, 12:20 AM
At least we [still -ed.] make the best bicycles in the world.


Wow... that's some consolation, I wonder how long that one is going to last?
I heard some of our beloved bike companies are having a hard time making it.


bro will we be a 3rd world country? that only sells weapons ?
cheers :beer:

Fixed, it already feels that way in some of our States and many cities and inner cities! BTW, see the movie Lord of Wars... a good one!

..A..

Blue Jays
01-05-2008, 04:04 AM
I love the United States and definitely love my American-made bikes. http://sbw.sportbikes.com/images/smilies/love.gif

MadRocketSci
01-05-2008, 04:31 AM
Nothing wrong with that - they have to return somehow, otherwise folks wouldn't accept the $ as payment for what we buy from them. You can't expect folks to sell us stuff then just throw the $ away.

Louis

Curl up boys and girls for a bedtime story by Uncle Warren

[T]ake a wildly fanciful trip with me to two isolated, side-by-side islands of equal size, Squanderville and Thriftville. Land is the only capital asset on these islands, and their communities are primitive, needing only food and producing only food. Working eight hours a day, in fact, each inhabitant can produce enough food to sustain himself or herself. And for a long time that's how things go along. On each island everybody works the prescribed eight hours a day, which means that each society is self-sufficient.

Eventually, though, the industrious citizens of Thriftville decide to do some serious saving and investing, and they start to work 16 hours a day. In this mode they continue to live off the food they produce in eight hours of work but begin exporting an equal amount to their one and only trading outlet, Squanderville.

The citizens of Squanderville are ecstatic about this turn of events, since they can now live their lives free from toil but eat as well as ever. Oh, yes, there's a quid pro quo-but to the Squanders, it seems harmless: All that the Thrifts want in exchange for their food is Squanderbonds (which are denominated, naturally, in Squanderbucks). Over time Thriftville accumulates an enormous amount of these bonds, which at their core represent claim checks on the future output of Squanderville. A few pundits in Squanderville smell trouble coming. They foresee that for the Squanders both to eat and to pay off-or simply service - the debt they're piling up will eventually require them to work more than eight hours a day. But the residents of squanderville are in no mood to listen to such doom saying.

Meanwhile, the citizens of Thriftville begin to get nervous. Just how good, they ask, are the IOUs of a shiftless island? So the Thrifts change strategy: Though they continue to hold some bonds, they sell most of them to Squanderville residents for Squanderbucks and use the proceeds to buy Squanderville land. And eventually the Thrifts own all of Squanderville. At that point, the Squanders are forced to deal with an ugly equation: They must now not only return to working eight hours a day in order to eat - they have nothing left to trade - but must also work additional hours to service their debt and pay Thriftville rent on the land so imprudently sold. In effect, Squanderville has been colonized by purchase rather than conquest. It can be argued, of course, that the present value of the future production that Squanderville must forever ship to Thriftville only equates to the production Thriftville initially gave up and that therefore both have received a fair deal. But since one generation of Squanders gets the free ride and future generations pay in perpetuity for it, there are - in economist talk - some pretty dramatic "intergenerational inequities."

"Squanderville versus Thriftville"
Originally Published by FORTUNE Magazine
October 2003
By Warren E. Buffett

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Squanderville.html#squanderville

michael white
01-05-2008, 06:00 AM
[QUOTE "intergenerational inequities." [/I]

Bush legacy in a nutshell.

stevep
01-05-2008, 06:43 AM
All the US military power will not protect the frn (Dollar) hedgemony.

Rome fell thru loose as goose fiscal policy and so will we.

I engaged the young server behind the dunkin donuts counter this evening
and began to explain fed reserve notes and fraction reserve banking.

I showed a United States Note and an actual United States Dollar.

The reply was ''You lost me at the start".

if the guy jumped over the counter and punched you in the nose ... it would be a gift of the forum.
we hired a guy at the wrong dunkin...i guess.

CNY rider
01-05-2008, 07:48 AM
if the guy jumped over the counter and punched you in the nose ... it would be a gift of the forum.
we hired a guy at the wrong dunkin...i guess.

A little harsh,no? :argue:

stevep
01-05-2008, 08:10 AM
A little harsh,no? :argue:

nah.
a little too much frn for the guy behind the counter methinks.

soulspinner
01-05-2008, 08:13 AM
yeah....we bad. USA GDP MAP.


Can Sweden please be NY, gentlemen prefer blondes... :p

BumbleBeeDave
01-05-2008, 08:47 AM
I engaged the young server behind the dunkin donuts counter this evening
and began to explain fed reserve notes and fraction reserve banking.

I showed a United States Note and an actual United States Dollar.

The reply was ''You lost me at the start".

. . . the mental image of Ray frantically gesticulating at the poor Troy kid, waving FRN bills and the kid wondering whether this is worth hitting the police call panic button for! LOL! . . . :eek: :rolleyes:

BBD

weiwentg
01-05-2008, 08:48 AM
No, the driver for America's place in the world has been financial leadership, Crazed dictators would rail against America and then quietly exchange their currency for dollars. For an international bank to truly be recognized, New York had to be on their business card.

Today America's biggest financial houses are being bailed out by Qatari and Singapore capital--Petrodollars sent abroad return in the form of equity in our financial giants, that are rapidly being surpassed by the UBS's of the world. The dollars continues to fall, as the Fed cuts rates to try to avoid a housing implosion. Successful companies like mine are looking abroad for growth, hiring in India, and London and Abu Dhabi.

well, Temasek investments is no bunch of fools - Merril Lynch is a fantastic enterprise that has fallen on hard times. Davis also helped in the bailout, and they are one of the best investing firms in the business.

I'm not so sanguine about where the country is going myself ... but many American firms have firmly established themselves as global players for the long haul.



And stuff isn't working very well any more. Any one that rides the Commuter Rail in Boston knows that in the last months, the system has literally been falling apart; forty year old engines way beyond their natural life don't work so well in the winter. Cost cutting involves cutting conductors (my 12 pass, normally lasting 6 business days now lasts 10, as fares are not collected regularly) while leaving the bloated fat of patronage jobs for friends and relatives of inbred political hacks. Who doesn't drive in Boston and think about what could happen while crossing a bridge or entering a tunnel? Traffic backs up at rush hour while cops stand at empty construction sites earning double time. Hey, it's in their contract.

At least we make the best bicycles in the world.

b21

well ... can't dispute either point. Singapore's infrastructure is much better run. as a public health professional, Singapore's hospital system is very well run, and there's a workable safety net for the poor (even though no universal coverage, you can see a doctor at a government clinic for like US$7). I wonder about working here sometimes... but I prefer the US political system, flaws and all.

oh, and the bicycles.

CNY rider
01-05-2008, 08:57 AM
well, Temasek investments is no bunch of fools - Merril Lynch is a fantastic enterprise that has fallen on hard times.






Really? What exactly makes Merrill such a fantastic enterprise? How about Citigroup? These two companies have destroyed billions of dollars of investors capital, with poor management and shoddy risk assessment practices. They have also squandered billions on bonuses for their second rate management. Their shareholders are shouldering a lot of that burden. The foreign entities are buying big pieces of them because without the capital infusions they would be insolvent.
That's fantastic all right!

Pete Serotta
01-05-2008, 09:14 AM
Ray, I love you!!!! I tried that at STARBUCKS and I got EURO back but only 40% :D :D

All the US military power will not protect the frn (Dollar) hedgemony.

Rome fell thru loose as goose fiscal policy and so will we.

I engaged the young server behind the dunkin donuts counter this evening
and began to explain fed reserve notes and fraction reserve banking.

I showed a United States Note and an actual United States Dollar.

The reply was ''You lost me at the start".

Big Dan
01-05-2008, 09:27 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320469,00.html

:cool:

3chordwonder
01-06-2008, 06:18 PM
Europe is a trainwreck

If you seriously think that, you haven't spent any time in northern continental Europe lately, or if you have, you were wearing some opaque flagwaving jingoistic blinkers. Wake up and spend less time on YouTube.

andy mac
01-06-2008, 06:58 PM
it's interesting to fly from say amsterdam to NYC - it's like arriving in a second world city.

amsterdam: drive to the airport in an E-class merc, beautiful building, healthy eating options, wifi, everyone speaks english.

arrive at crappy, tired old jfk. wait forever in a line. hop in turdbox cab. pot holes. driver barely speaks english. streets are filthy.

my dad still remembers the great british empire. wasn't long ago...

i love the states and they have a good run left but world orders do change.

:beer:

rounder
01-06-2008, 07:18 PM
Really? What exactly makes Merrill such a fantastic enterprise? How about Citigroup? These two companies have destroyed billions of dollars of investors capital, with poor management and shoddy risk assessment practices. They have also squandered billions on bonuses for their second rate management. Their shareholders are shouldering a lot of that burden. The foreign entities are buying big pieces of them because without the capital infusions they would be insolvent.
That's fantastic all right!

I used to work at a large bank and reported to the Director of Corporate Accounting. The company had implemented a lot of different incentive plans for the executives and other high ups...he referred to it as "management by bonus". We reported record earnings each quarter for the next two years. That was when we nearly failed and were taken over by a stronger institution.

Viper
01-06-2008, 07:57 PM
If you seriously think that, you haven't spent any time in northern continental Europe lately, or if you have, you were wearing some opaque flagwaving jingoistic blinkers. Wake up and spend less time on YouTube.

If I were you and I'm most certainly not, I'd worry less about my time on youtube (and I sleep very well thank you very much).

Is the Euro Union great? I have friends from Ireland, England, Spain, Italy, Germany and Turkey...they all feel the Euro Union systems are a trainwreck.

But why quibble on vegemite, I am totally against the European 'Union'. LOL, like Europe could ever agree on anything, be a union and even if they could, I oppose the EU. I believe the EU will be in an upcoming episode of the series 'LOST', I'm a Euroskeptic.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/international_trade_politics/70762

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/852402b8-91dc-11db-a945-0000779e2340,dwp_uuid=176e2654-91dc-11db-a945-0000779e2340.html?nclick_check=1

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:crKr3Es69B0J:www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3533501.html+euroskeptic&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1468614,00.html

http://www.eubusiness.com/news_live/1192758426.58/

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=29428-qqqx=1.asp

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1214/breaking7.htm

http://www.eubusiness.com/Turkey/1194961621.57/

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2762790920071227

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050423/ai_n14599337

97CSI
01-06-2008, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE "intergenerational inequities." [/I]

Bush legacy in a nutshell.Make that 'republican party' legacy in a nutshell. Starting big-time with Raygun.

But, it is all OK. The revisionists are busy trying to rewrite history to show how wonderful it has all been (and will be). Besides.....the rich are welcome everywhere. Not just in the U.S.

As for Europe.........at least they have decent trains. While they complain at least as much as we do, they've been there for many centuries longer. Let's see how long our run is. I am not sanguine.

ti_boi
01-06-2008, 08:02 PM
Yeah man.....interesting comments....we are taxed to high heaven right now....roads are crappy (for cyclists that is one of my gripes)....everything is overpriced....housing is through the roof (seriously)....and this is from someone who likes the USA. :beer: Every incentive the government has pushed over the last decade has focused on the rich.....

Simon Q
01-06-2008, 08:11 PM
If you seriously think that, you haven't spent any time in northern continental Europe lately, or if you have, you were wearing some opaque flagwaving jingoistic blinkers. Wake up and spend less time on YouTube.

A big +1. A trainwreck? I lived there for five years and miss it heaps. Europe is a fascinating and incredible place just the way it is. Obvioulsy I like trainwrecks...

Louis
01-06-2008, 08:12 PM
we are taxed to high heaven right now....roads are crappy (for cyclists that is one of my gripes)

Dude, make up your mind.

Folks want tax money to be spent only on what's important to them, and none for the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

Louis

Chief
01-06-2008, 08:13 PM
Things may not be ideal here, but I have visited many countries and I can say unequivocally that things are much better here than there and I feel fortunate that I live here. Keep the faith. optimism and a can do attitude.

ti_boi
01-06-2008, 08:35 PM
Dude, make up your mind.

Folks want tax money to be spent only on what's important to them, and none for the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

Louis


I think that the government here is enormous...and wasteful....I would have liked to see them stick their knitting so to speak and spend $$$ on infrastructure...encourage innovation....and not become the guardian of democracy to the larger universe. No mind change there.

Viper
01-06-2008, 08:44 PM
A big +1. A trainwreck? I lived there for five years and miss it heaps. Europe is a fascinating and incredible place just the way it is. Obvioulsy I like trainwrecks...

Our borders are open to allow those who do not like it...to leave.

America is still the shining light. People forget that we saved the world, twice and their gratitude was to love us throughout the Cold War; they stopped loving us once the Berlin Wall fell. Europeans, folks around the globe clung to us throughout the Cold War and once America beat the Ruskies, those same folks enjoyed throwing us under the bus.

We need to listen to Ron Paul, even if we won't vote for him...make America first, our borders, our roads, infrastructures, economy, stop loans to certain Middle Eastern countries and look at the honest, real reasons for why we are attacked.

We are the best. I am a proud American. We are not perfect, no, but we are still the best. We took down the Berlin Wall. We took the hits on 9/11. The best are often the most scrutinized and in 2020 I look forward to reminding the American people of David Hasselhoff's 'Freedom' as well as the Gipper at 'the' Wall. The Hoff may even sing at my inauguration atmo (if he's out of rehab by then):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyu9zIUDw0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjWDrTXMgF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxAd2sHtMf0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=terYQRjnATM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE4Ur5rRMAg

ti_boi
01-06-2008, 08:48 PM
:rolleyes:

William
01-06-2008, 08:49 PM
if the guy jumped over the counter and punched you in the nose ... it would be a gift of the forum.
we hired a guy at the wrong dunkin...i guess.

Naw, I got AR's back.




William

Avispa
01-06-2008, 10:25 PM
I love the United States and definitely love my American-made bikes....

I just found this quote:

"Blessed are the young, for they shall inherit the National Debt"
Herbert Hoover
1874-1964

Boy, these government people, they all seem to have it figured out!

..A..

andy mac
01-06-2008, 10:37 PM
Things may not be ideal here, but I have visited many countries and I can say unequivocally that things are much better here than there and I feel fortunate that I live here. Keep the faith. optimism and a can do attitude.

just wondering, where's 'there'.

:confused: :confused:

:confused:

Dekonick
01-07-2008, 12:43 AM
This country is great. Look at all of our natural resources! I have faith that the United States will continue to be a wonderful place to live in the future.

Be glad you live here - cherish what you have.

If you don't like it here feel free to see what the rest of the world has to offer - we will probably even take you back. :crap:

I hate when American's badmouth themselves - try to build up our image, not tear it down. If you want change, then - VOTE! Write emails to congress, and for goodness sakes - lift your head high and be proud to be American!

We aren't perfect, but this is still the best place on the planet to live.

Oh - if you are gonna vote, at least be informed. :)

:D

dave thompson
01-07-2008, 01:20 AM
You want change? Start it!

TMB
01-07-2008, 02:22 AM
We are the best. I am a proud American. We are not perfect, no, but we are still the best.



How does one define Best?

Viper
01-07-2008, 02:27 AM
You want change? Start it!

If I were Obama or Huckabee etc I'd offer,

"Change? All I hear is the word 'change', morning, noon and night. Change. You know what the American people really want (as I take change out of my pocket and place it on the debate table) people want dollars not change. Change? The American people want this Iraqi War to have a culmination, an ending. All the other candidates up here are telling you, 'I'll have the men and women of our armed services back home in about a year', some up here offer 6-9 months, maybe a year. Me? It's January 2008. What is a year? Huh? Last I looked the election, the vote for a new President isn't until November 4th 2008, that's nearly one year away. The inaguration, the swearing-in of the next President isn't until January 9th, 2009, exactly one year from today. So, are these folks up here, my fellow candidates telling the American people one year or two years and beginning when? Me? If elected President I WILL have all American soldiers home within 30 DAYS.

The recent surge in Iraq has succeeded, the War ended when we captured Saddam, the battle for peace continues and Iraq is soon ready to stand on her own two feet. Let's watch Iraq throughout the year, but let's not offer you a time you think sounds great, like 'one year'. The American people have spoken, they want our men home and they will be home in exactly one year and thirty days from today.

Change? You want lower taxes, sure, but you want lower bills from your health insurance, cheaper fuel for your cars at the pump, and to sleep at night knowing your and your family are safe. Vote for me (Viper) and you'll see more than the word change, you'll see it in the form of verbs, not words...we'll find the ways to lower the gas prices, lower health insurance costs to companies and their employees and we'll see a change in the headlines as all 250,000 men and women of the armed services will be home again, we proudly await their return. They'll be home and I'll be watching, listening and looking for the evil men who threaten us and let them hear me clearly tonight...should anyone within the sound of my voice consider attacking this great country of ours...America...you'll see change all right, but you won't like what you'll see as our military will remind you to never confuse kindness for weakness. America is kind, giving and warm, we are still the brightest light as seen from space and the warmest light as seen from our own borders. To those who threaten America we offer you our open hand or...our fist, the choice is ours, not yours.

God Bless America. Vote for me and receive a steel frame too, we need to save on gas atmo...

Thank you,

Viper"

My speech concludes with the 'Miami Vice' theme...there's a 54% chance I could win atmo.

mikki
01-07-2008, 07:06 AM
You want change? Start it!

The only way to see that policies/trends change is to be a part of the mass that organizes in order to create the change. From the inside out (government) or from the ground floor up (grass root revolt) by voting in those who have a background of being a mover and shaker and then keeping our eyes on them to make sure they do what they pledge they will do as our representatives.

Although I probably won't vote for him, I liked what John Edwards said last night in the debates (they may have been filmed earlier but I saw them last night) about the strangle hold that Special Interests have on the congress and consequently our nation. He mentioned that it just doesn't happen that an elected official can accept $$ from Special Interest Businesses and Groups and then turn their back on the same Special Interests' desires. Thus the stranglehold on them and consequently, us.

I also agree with Huckabee in saying that Congress must give up their affiliation to vote only their partyline and work TOGETHER for the good of the people!! It is when the Congress and the President are at odds with one another all the time that everything stalemates.

Wish I could take what I like about every candidate and create a new one.

P.S. I love America and believe that with alot of work & co-operation we can improve.

saab2000
01-07-2008, 08:23 AM
America is still the shining light.

You are wrong. I see many big cities daily and many of our airports daily. They are an embarrasment. Filthy. Staffed by uneducated people who are not well trained. No ability to communicate. And that's with native born US-Americans who supposedly went to school. Apathy.

I have seen the US from the outside for many years and the light dimmed a long time ago. Go visit a major European city. They are not perfect but they have created their own light.

Our foreign policy over the past 7 years has alienated the US from the rest of the world. But not only the past 7 years. US foreign policy since WWII has in fact frequently been very short sighted and led to the malevolence that much of the world feels towards the US. The failing family structure (over the past 50 years or so) in the US has meant a generation of misguided youth. Work ethic in the US cities? Not in the service industries. High infant mortality. Very polarized upper and middle classes. Very low secondary school graduation rates. Failing infrastructure at all levels.

Trust me as someone who spent many years abroad and grew up with a very different perspective. The US is not shining beacon the NASCAR crowd thinks it is.

The US is not the shining light it once was or imagined itself to be. And don't give the old "If you don't like it, you can leave" song and dance. It's insulting to those of us who happen to be US citizens who would like to make the US a better place but feel we can't because of the overwhelming power of America, Inc.

Just my $.02

MassBiker
01-07-2008, 08:31 AM
According to the UN, Norway is the best place to live!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

:beer:

flydhest
01-07-2008, 08:34 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I agree with saab.

You are wrong. I see many big cities daily and many of our airports daily. They are an embarrasment. Filthy. Staffed by uneducated people who are not well trained. No ability to communicate. And that's with native born US-Americans who supposedly went to school. Apathy.

I have seen the US from the outside for many years and the light dimmed a long time ago. Go visit a major European city. They are not perfect but they have created their own light.

Our foreign policy over the past 7 years has alienated the US from the rest of the world. But not only the past 7 years. US foreign policy since WWII has in fact frequently been very short sighted and led to the malevolence that much of the world feels towards the US. The failing family structure (over the past 50 years or so) in the US has meant a generation of misguided youth. Work ethic in the US cities? Not in the service industries. High infant mortality. Very polarized upper and middle classes. Very low secondary school graduation rates. Failing infrastructure at all levels.

Trust me as someone who spent many years abroad and grew up with a very different perspective. The US is not shining beacon the NASCAR crowd thinks it is.

The US is not the shining light it once was or imagined itself to be. And don't give the old "If you don't like it, you can leave" song and dance. It's insulting to those of us who happen to be US citizens who would like to make the US a better place but feel we can't because of the overwhelming power of America, Inc.

Just my $.02

sspielman
01-07-2008, 08:53 AM
Forget about the war in the middle east.....one wonders how long the war that is being waged on the middle class can last......The cause has LONG been lost for the lower class.....

JohnS
01-07-2008, 08:56 AM
The middle class is toast. The income range from the thread that got locked ($19-50K, IIRC) sure isn't the level of income needed to live what most Americans perceive to be a middle class lifestyle.

MilanoTom
01-07-2008, 09:01 AM
Is the Euro Union great? I have friends from Ireland, England, Spain, Italy, Germany and Turkey...they all feel the Euro Union systems are a trainwreck.



That should be enough proof for any of us.

Viper
01-07-2008, 09:25 AM
That should be enough proof for any of us.

Agreed.

Avispa
01-07-2008, 10:11 AM
And don't give the old "If you don't like it, you can leave" song and dance. It's insulting to those of us who happen to be US citizens who would like to make the US a better place but feel we can't because of the overwhelming power of America, Inc.

Saab,

You beat me to this... Plus all you said, so true! When I complain about the US, I complain because I want to make it a better place, but many times it seems futile.

The "If you don't like it, leave" attitude, I expect it from the Bill O’Reilly types and treat it as such. And to those I say: "yeah, since you know so much and have so many friends.... Find me a job overseas! I will LEAVE anytime!"

..A..

Karin Kirk
01-07-2008, 10:22 AM
This NPR story caught my ear the other morning:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17848293

It's about a book called "The Geography of Bliss" wherein the author discusses the overall happiness of various nations. In this review, two happy countries are profiled, Switzerland and Iceland, with interesting reasons offered for their good cheer.

Anecdotally, I have visited both of those places and came away with the same conclusions as this author. In both cases, after one visit I had so much fun that I went back again. And in both cases these places still rate among my very favorite spots. Very interesting, I think!

michael white
01-07-2008, 10:26 AM
that was something the rednecks used to say to the cool kids back in the 60's. It had something to do with war etc. "Domino theory" and so forth.

MRB
01-07-2008, 10:39 AM
At least we make the best bicycles in the world.b21
That's right. Keep America strong......Weld it!!

97CSI
01-07-2008, 10:40 AM
Our borders are open to allow those who do not like it...to leave.

America is still the shining light. People forget that we saved the world, twice and their gratitude was to love us throughout the Cold War; they stopped loving us once the Berlin Wall fell. Europeans, folks around the globe clung to us throughout the Cold War and once America beat the Ruskies, those same folks enjoyed throwing us under the bus.

We need to listen to Ron Paul, even if we won't vote for him...make America first, our borders, our roads, infrastructures, economy, stop loans to certain Middle Eastern countries and look at the honest, real reasons for why we are attacked.

We are the best. I am a proud American. We are not perfect, no, but we are still the best. We took down the Berlin Wall. We took the hits on 9/11. The best are often the most scrutinized and in 2020 I look forward to reminding the American people of David Hasselhoff's 'Freedom' as well as the Gipper at 'the' Wall. The Hoff may even sing at my inauguration atmo (if he's out of rehab by then): First two paragraphs are BS. As someone who served around the world in our military in the 60s-70s and has continued to travel and work around the world, the only difference I'v found over the years is that once we got an arrogant/rude cowboy in the Whitehouse who tried his best to 'dictate' to the rest of the world, they have stood up and vocalized back. In must less rude and arrogant terms, I might add. Never have I heard a citizen in another country tell me how they wished they had our inner-city crime and poverty or our lack of affordable mass-tranist or universal healthcare or wretched treatment of the elderly.

And, the Berlin Wall fell due to internal malaise and collapse in the USSR. We had very little to do with it. Regardless of the revisionist history that is coming from the members of the former administration of the 80s.

We have the capacity to be a great country, but we seem to fall short of the mark. More often then not, recently. Until we can get our own house in order, we should stop trying to dictate to others. We just come off as the pimple-faced bully. Hopefully, the next national election will get us started in a better direction. We can't afford not to (or who will be able to buy these great Serotta bicycles?).

dbrk
01-07-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm with gpdavis2, Saab, and Flydhest (who is, btw, waaaay smarter than me 'cause he went to Princeton...;-)...

Let's have another example: this morning on the Diane Rehm Show on NPR they are actually debating the theory of evolution with the "intelligent design" crowd because a substantial number of Amercians actually doubt evolution. Astonishing. Endemic. Huckabee. I rest my case.

There are a coupla'nice old Bob Jacksons on eBay? Anybody notice?

dbrk

TMB
01-07-2008, 11:00 AM
There are a coupla'nice old Bob Jacksons on eBay? Anybody notice?

dbrk

I'm still kicking myself for not buying that BJ 753 with the bad paint job that was listed a few weeks ago.

Viper
01-07-2008, 11:06 AM
First two paragraphs are BS. As someone who served around the world in our military in the 60s-70s and has continued to travel and work around the world, the only difference I'v found over the years is that once we got an arrogant/rude cowboy in the Whitehouse who tried his best to 'dictate' to the rest of the world, they have stood up and vocalized back. In must less rude and arrogant terms, I might add. Never have I heard a citizen in another country tell me how they wished they had our inner-city crime and poverty or our lack of affordable mass-tranist or universal healthcare or wretched treatment of the elderly.

And, the Berlin Wall fell due to internal malaise and collapse in the USSR. We had very little to do with it. Regardless of the revisionist history that is coming from the members of the former administration of the 80s.

We have the capacity to be a great country, but we seem to fall short of the mark. More often then not, recently. Until we can get our own house in order, we should stop trying to dictate to others. We just come off as the pimple-faced bully. Hopefully, the next national election will get us started in a better direction.


Hate America first, it's the way of one of our parties in this country atmo.

Don't be a hater! Be a player! Stand right up and make the spot you're in, your town, your village, your city and your own country a better place! Don't ask what your Presidential Election can do for you, ask what you can do for your town. Personally, if many countries hate me, I'm glad, even pumped up...it means I'm doing something right. We should listen to Ron Paul's assessment of our Foreign Policies, indeed, especially when it comes to a little piece of land in the Middle East.

And the Berlin Wall fell because we, America, broke it down. Anything less than this truth is in itself, pure fodder.

I love America. I hate Isiah Thomas, James Dolan, cold coffee, 99% of the music played today and saddle sores. I love America and the other rude, snobish countries of the Euro world? I don't care about their sentiments, heck our friends to the North had some vile words thrown at our President and I chuckled; how low is it for one to insult another while claiming we're so wrong, bad etc. Don't take the low moral road and pretend to yell from the mountains.

We forget sometimes that America was founded on BEING arrogant. We tossed tea into a harbor, took on the world super power and kicked some arse. Americans should be confident and proud of who we are as a nation. I say we throw Venezuelan coffee into Boston harbor soon. I'm tired of the insults thrown our way. People ought to hang out here and see what it's like, no soup and no coffee for you:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1683002,00.html

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 11:14 AM
Hate America first, it's the way of one of our parties in this country atmo.

Don't be a hater! Be a player! Stand right up and make the spot you're in, your town, your village, your city and your own country a better place! Don't ask what your Presidential Election can do for you, ask what you can do for your town. Personally, if many countries hate me, I'm glad, even pumped up...it means I'm doing something right. We should listen to Ron Paul's assessment of our Foreign Policies, indeed, especially when it comes to a little piece of land in the Middle East.

And the Berlin Wall fell because we, America, broke it down. Anything less than this truth is in itself, pure fodder.

I love America. I hate Isiah Thomas, James Dolan, cold coffee, 99% of the music played today and saddle sores. I love America and the other rude, snobish countries of the Euro world? I don't care about their sentiments, heck our friends to the North had some vile words thrown at our President and I chuckled; how low is it for one to insult another while claiming we're so wrong, bad etc. Don't take the low moral road and pretend to yell from the mountains.

We forget sometimes that America was founded on BEING arrogant. We tossed tea into a harbor, took on the world super power and kicked some arse. Americans should be confident and proud of who we are as a nation. I say we throw Venezuelan coffee into Boston harbor soon. I'm tired of the insults thrown our way. People ought to hang out here and see what it's like, no soup and no coffee for you:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1683002,00.html

*shaking head slowly thinking.........geez.......no wonder things are so messed up.

Viper
01-07-2008, 11:19 AM
*shaking head slowly thinking.........geez.......no wonder things are so messed up.

Welp, I'm shaking my head up and down, nodding y-e-s...we are great!

America IS NOT perfect, but who the heck is, huh? Where is utopia? Please give me GPS coordinates to where the heaven on earth is (I think it's the Playboy mansion myself).

WE invented Miami Vice. Frank Zappa could have lived anywhere, he lived here. How many current, past or future world leaders have been educated in America? The United Nations is assembled where? True freedom and capitalism reigns where? Our Eagles made MILLIONS living off lyrics which often hated America, complained about it...yet they lived here in the utmost of hypocratic ways. Justin Timberlake is the new Elvis-lite, atmo. That is all.

PS. You live in the # 1 corrupt state, your states political system is a pure joke. What have you done to improve New Jersey? Attending a Bruce Springsteen concert does not count. He's another deadbeat who was 'Born in the USA' when it made him money, then he became a hater of America, yet the man with two-voices (talk about a fake voice, he's hillbilly one minute, then New Jersey shore the next) makes his money off America.

Fixed
01-07-2008, 11:23 AM
maybe a little modesty would go far when we tell the rest of the world how great we are .
imho
cheers

gdw
01-07-2008, 11:24 AM
Winter seems to be bringing the forum to new lows.

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 11:24 AM
Welp, I'm shaking my head up and down, nodding y-e-s...we are great!

America IS NOT perfect, but who the heck is, huh? Where is utopia? Please give me GPS coordinates to where the heaven on earth is (I think it's the Playboy mansion myself).

WE invented Miami Vice. Frank Zappa could have lived anywhere, he lived here. How many current, past or future world leaders have been educated in America? The United Nations is assembled where? True freedom and capitalism reigns where? Our Eagles made MILLIONS living off lyrics which often hated America, complained about it...yet they lived here in the utmost of hypocratic ways. Justin Timberlake is the new Elvis-lite, atmo. That is all.


Interview with Ron Paul.......

My Interview With Ron Paul
By JOHN STOSSEL
JFS Productions, Inc.
December 13, 2007


Over the last few months, I've received hundreds of emails from people asking me to interview Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul, so I did.

It's refreshing to interview a politician who doesn't mince words. It's even more refreshing to interview one who understands the benefits of limited government.

Here, then, is the first in a series of columns on my talk with Ron Paul. Some of his answers are shortened.

What should government do?

Ron Paul: Protect our freedoms. Have a strong national defense. Look at and take care of our borders. Have a sound currency. That was the responsibility of the federal government, not to run our lives and run everything in the economy and extend the interstate-commerce clause and the general-welfare clause to do anything they want to do.

So defense, the military, police forces enforce contracts, and that's about it?

That's it. We would have a court system to enforce contracts, and when people do harm to others, when they take property or injure property, or pollute a neighbor's air, I think there's a role for government to protect our environment through private-property rights.

So keep us safe, enforce contracts, run the courts, pollution rules and otherwise butt out? Leave us alone?

Basically that, which would mean if I'm elected, I should immediately take a pay cut. You know, because I wouldn't have so much to do.

The Department of Education. You'd get rid of it?

Yes. We don't need it.

How will people get educated?

We might get better education. The evidence shows, since the 1950s, since the federal government's gotten involved, the quality of education has gone down, and the cost has gone up.

The federal government should have no role?

There's no authority for it, and … they've proved themselves inefficient. The one city they're totally in charge of is Washington, D.C. Thirteen thousand dollars a year per student. They have more guns, more drugs, more violence. So there's no evidence that the government can do a very good job.

The Department of Energy.

We don't need a Department of Energy. It serves the interests of big business.

Other cabinet departments? Department of Agriculture, Commerce, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development. You'd get rid of all of them?

Yeah. Of course, that's not on the immediate agenda, but they're unnecessary, and we should think about what kind of a country we would have without these departments, and I think we would have a better country, and all those problems that they're supposed to solve, I think, would be lessened.

The Commerce Department? We don't need the Commerce Department to have commerce?

No, absolutely not.

Homeland Security. Isn't that a role for the federal government?

Not really, not the way that's designed. That's the biggest bureaucracy of them all. There are some parts that are OK. You know, they put the Coast Guard in there, and they put FEMA in there, and everybody's bunched together. And I think it was failure of government on 9/11, not the fact that we didn't have the Department of Homeland Security and … a national ID card, and this constant surveillance and loss of our privacy.

Failure of government how?

We spent $40 billion on intelligence gathering, and it didn't prevent [the 9/11 attacks] from happening. But the government was in charge of the airlines. FAA, they were supposed to inspect the people as they went on, and you weren't supposed to resist any takeovers, and (passengers and pilots) weren't allowed to have a gun. Maybe if you and I had the airlines, we might have said, "Hey, you know, we want to protect our passengers. Maybe we should have a stronger door on there, maybe we ought to give our pilots a gun." So 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

So government creates too many rules, and the wrong ones?

That's basically it. Most of the time well-intentioned — but good intentions will not solve our problems.

Viper
01-07-2008, 11:25 AM
maybe a little modesty would go far when we tell the rest of the world how great we are .
imho
cheers

True, I hear you.

We didn't invent 'Wham' and George Michael isn't from Brooklyn, but man, I'm just bored/tired of hearing the hate of America. Just cause people say it doesn't make it so, atmo.

Viper
01-07-2008, 11:28 AM
Winter seems to be bringing the forum to new lows.

Well, are you worried to be an American tonight or not? Then again you could be writing from Australia or New Zealand. I hear great things about New Zealand. Those damned Kiwis keep winning The America's Cup, drives me nuts.

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 11:33 AM
Like a parent with a wayward child, America needs some tough love right now. Not a matter of hate...a matter of love. Nuff Said.

davids
01-07-2008, 11:35 AM
I'm with gpdavis2, Saab, and Flydhest (who is, btw, waaaay smarter than me 'cause he went to Princeton...;-)...

Let's have another example: this morning on the Diane Rehm Show on NPR they are actually debating the theory of evolution with the "intelligent design" crowd because a substantial number of Amercians actually doubt evolution. Astonishing. Endemic. Huckabee. I rest my case.

dbrkI'm with drbk. It doesn't matter where he went to school - he's smart.

The attacks on the theory of evolution break my heart. As if people cannot only pick & choose which scientifically supported data to adopt ("Let's see. I'll take quantum mechanics, because I like microprocessors, but not evolution, because the Bible can only be understood literally.") but pick & choose when to accept the same scientifically supported data ("I want a vaccine to protect me from those newly evolved strains of flu, but there's no way I'm descended from some monkey!")

I spent some time this weekend reading some (general interest) articles on cosmology and the origins of our universe. Fantastic, exciting stuff. It's amazing what science has been able to uncover about our universe in just the last hundred years. And so much more remains tantalizingly close to being understood.

Not a word of it speaks to the existence of a creator or to morality. Science and religion can easily co-exist. But science and fundamentalism, not so much.

Viper
01-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Like a parent with a wayward child, America needs some tough love right now. Not a matter of hate...a matter of love. Nuff Said.

Americans...there are too many uneducated, spoiled brats whose credit card debt, obesity and laziness are their undoing; giving tough love is something they don't want. Britney Spears is an example here. Nobody wants to pay down the infamous deficit...they can't even manage their own debt! And this group of people want the Government to make their lives 'better' or they blame the Government for making them miserable. LOL.

Many Americans want more calories, less school, more fat, more tiVO, more playstation and more drugs (both prescribed and otherwise). I am a bigger fan of personal accountability! In 2020 I will ask the people to tell me what they're going to do for me, not the other way around.

The truth is I ride Campy cause my rear hub sounds like Quint's reel in 'JAWS'...those first few clicks of his reel's gears...when he hooked him, my hub reminds me of that reel. There, I said it.

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 12:00 PM
Americans...there are too many uneducated, spoiled brats whose credit card debt, obesity and laziness are their undoing; giving tough love is something they don't want. Britney Spears is an example here. Nobody wants to pay down the infamous deficit...they can't even manage their own debt! And this group of people want the Government to make their lives 'better' or they blame the Government for making them miserable. LOL.

Many Americans want more calories, less school, more fat, more tiVO, more playstation and more drugs (both prescribed and otherwise). I am a bigger fan of personal accountability! In 2020 I will ask the people to tell me what they're going to do for me, not the other way around.

The truth is I ride Campy cause my rear hub sounds like Quint's reel in 'JAWS'...those first few clicks of his reel's gears...when he hooked him, my hub reminds me of that reel. There, I said it.


So let's round up all of the fat, indebted folks out there....and put em in Gitmo? And let's hold the current administration 'accountable' for _____________. (fill in the blank)

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 12:10 PM
PS. You live in the # 1 corrupt state, your states political system is a pure joke. What have you done to improve New Jersey? Attending a Bruce Springsteen concert does not count. He's another deadbeat who was 'Born in the USA' when it made him money, then he became a hater of America, yet the man with two-voices (talk about a fake voice, he's hillbilly one minute, then New Jersey shore the next) makes his money off America.

Congratulations VIPER...you have officially graduated to resident TROLL here on the board.....Let's see the checklist....1. Vitriolic rants...Check! 2. Rambling incoherent musings...check! 3. Personal attacks asking strangers to justify their existence....CHECK!

Well done! You have completed the requirements well ahead of schedule. :hello: :hello:

Viper
01-07-2008, 12:13 PM
So let's round up all of the fat, indebted folks out there....and put em in Gitmo? And let's hold the current administration 'accountable' for _____________. (fill in the blank)

My company does not have dental insurance. Shocker. So...I brush twice a day, floss at night, eat well and try to avoid cavities. America has too many who do the exact opposite...and then complain.

I'm a huge fan of Gitmo. Great weather, cold drinks, awesome sunsets, what's not to like? You're close to NYC, that 9/11 thing, it forced us to create a Gitmo and for that, I blame the bad guys! No bad guys, no 9/11, no Gitmo. I try to keep perspective of blame.

Off to turn my rear wheel, I love that Quintesque noise.

Viper
01-07-2008, 12:16 PM
Congratulations VIPER...you have officially graduated to resident TROLL here on the board.....Let's see the checklist....1. Vitriolic rants...Check! 2. Rambling incoherent musings...check! 3. Personal attacks asking strangers to justify their existence....CHECK!

Well done! You have completed the requirements well ahead of schedule. :hello: :hello:

Ditto. In fact TiBoi, your post here makes you the bad guy and the loser in the debate. If you lack the wit or wisdom, withdraw, but don't attack. And by throwing yourself into this thread and then pointing fingers, you lost. BTW, I've received about half dozen PM's from strangers thanking me for writing.

You just posted a Gitmoesque post Tiboi; you don't like the message so you try to arrest me? I have zero personal attacks, but your post here is indeed a grand one on your part. Sorry to see you lose your temper, ashame and shame on you. I really think your post above is weak, you're wearing your heart and your politics on your sleeve. I asked you what you've done to improve your local village, town, city or state of NJ and your chain broke? Wow.

Meh, you can do better!

PS. What you view as incoherent ramblings is known in Ireland as wit.

I H8Rabbits
01-07-2008, 12:16 PM
Gitmo sucks atmo. No rabbits.


"R"

Karin Kirk
01-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Just a wee suggestion for ti_boy (and others who feel the same way) -- check out the "ignore" button.
It's quite a lovely feature! Makes my forum experience much less frustrating.

CNY rider
01-07-2008, 12:39 PM
Just a wee suggestion for ti_boy (and others who feel the same way) -- check out the "ignore" button.
It's quite a lovely feature! Makes my forum experience much less frustrating.


So if we don't feed it, it might go away?

Will give it a try. Thanks.

davids
01-07-2008, 12:45 PM
So if we don't feed it, it might go away?

Will give it a try. Thanks.In my experience, it certainly doesn't respond well to logical argument.

I've pressed the button. Let's see if it works.

William
01-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Just a wee suggestion for ti_boy (and others who feel the same way) -- check out the "ignore" button.
It's quite a lovely feature! Makes my forum experience much less frustrating.

So does that "ignore" a person in every thread, or just the thread you hit the button in? Just curious, I've never used it.



William

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 12:48 PM
Ditto. In fact TiBoi, your post here makes you the bad guy and the loser in the debate. If you lack the wit or wisdom, withdraw, but don't attack. And by throwing yourself into this thread and then pointing fingers, you lost. BTW, I've received about half dozen PM's from strangers thanking me for writing.

You just posted a Gitmoesque post Tiboi; you don't like the message so you try to arrest me? I have zero personal attacks, but your post here is indeed a grand one on your part. Sorry to see you lose your temper, ashame and shame on you. I really think your post above is weak, you're wearing your heart and your politics on your sleeve. I asked you what you've done to improve your local village, town, city or state of NJ and your chain broke? Wow.

Meh, you can do better!

PS. What you view as incoherent ramblings is known in Ireland as wit.

I'm not really angry with you Viper....but I recognize some disturbing trends in your approach. Take it for what it is, but this board has a lot of enthusiastic members who inspire thought provoking dialog without calling each other out (too often) I don't want to feel uncomfortable here and would encourage you to not take this stuff personally. I certainly do not. But let's keep things on an even keel. Thanks. Ti_Boi....(fat and in debt)

davids
01-07-2008, 12:49 PM
So does that "ignore" a person in every thread, or just the thread you hit the button in? Just curious, I've never used it.



William
It suppresses every post from the user, everywhere.

You can still see their musings if another poster quotes them, though.

Give it a try, it's easy to turn on & off. It's under "User CP".

flydhest
01-07-2008, 12:57 PM
I'm with drbk. It doesn't matter where he went to school - he's smart.




Indeed. Just goes to show that that school up near Beantown doesn't take away smarts if you start off with them.

:D This shouldn't be as much fun as it is.

Nevertheless, in addition to smart, dbrk is knowledgeable and wise. Me, I'm just smart.

davids
01-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Indeed. Just goes to show that that school up near Beantown doesn't take away smarts if you start off with them.

:D This shouldn't be as much fun as it is.

Nevertheless, in addition to smart, dbrk is knowledgeable and wise. Me, I'm just smart.Actually, I went to that school, too. It was an education, but I learned a lot more in Ann Arbor...

Neither smart, knowledgeable, or wise,

Viper
01-07-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm not really angry with you Viper....but I recognize some disturbing trends in your approach. Take it for what it is, but this board has a lot of enthusiastic members who inspire thought provoking dialog without calling each other out (too often) I don't want to feel uncomfortable here and would encourage you to not take this stuff personally. I certainly do not. But let's keep things on an even keel. Thanks. Ti_Boi....(fat and in debt)

And I'm not angry at you either ti boi, truly (and I don't hate NJ :) ).

When the topic comes to defending America, supporting it, I'll speak till the End of Days (and I don't need EPO). :)

That established, it's low (in class or stature) to yip yap about how one can use an ignore function on a specific member, it's both smug and elitist...and I direct this to CNY and David S. You two can do better amto (fyi to both of you, fwiw, Karin Kirk could have easily been referring for me to use the ignore function). Don't be so high on your saddle here folks. It's weak and low to yip yap on a board about who you're placing on ignore. As much as it'd hurt you, I think you'd have to agree with me.

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 01:05 PM
It's weak and low to yip yap on a board about who you're placing on ignore. As much as it'd hurt you, I think you'd have to agree with me.

If they heard you :D

I'm still trying to figure out if you'll get my vote in 2020.

JG

97CSI
01-07-2008, 01:08 PM
Viper - When is that you are going to graduate from HS? I have a few students who sound quite a bit like you.

Viper
01-07-2008, 01:09 PM
If they heard you :D

I'm still trying to figure out if you'll get my vote in 2020.

JG

Mr. Greene, you are right yet again. Thanks for the chuckle, I'm still trying to figure out if you do vote for me in 2020...if they'll count my chad LOL.

Regards,
Viper (please don't call me Chad). :D

Viper
01-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Viper - When is that you are going to graduate from HS? I have a few students who sound quite a bit like you.


And the hits just keep on coming! Nice work here bro, nice work. Stick and stones, sticks and stones. Your post, it does not appear that you teach Debate Class.

I <3 America (and I don't care for Randi Weingarten, she'd never vote for me, but you knew that).

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 01:15 PM
Mr. Greene, you are right yet again. Thanks for the chuckle, I'm still trying to figure out if you do vote for me in 2020...if they'll count my chad LOL.

Regards,
Viper (please don't call me Chad). :D

Chad,

my county does not use punch cards....

I'm not likely to put anyone on an ignore list, same as the majority of the people who read this forum. It a Jane Austen thing. And for that I thank you!

JG

saab2000
01-07-2008, 01:29 PM
I am a bigger fan of personal accountability!


I agree with that statement. One of the reasons I like Bill Richardson AND Ron Paul.

:beer:

ti_boi
01-07-2008, 01:32 PM
I agree with that statement. One of the reasons I like Bill Richardson AND Ron Paul.

:beer:


I like what Ron Paul has to say, that is why, btw...I posted that transcript from the interview he did with John Stossel....unfortunately, his type of straight talk and common sense approach is lost on the whole....surely we didn't rise from apes -- let's get back to arguing about issues that government has no business debating -- group.

In fact I feel the need for real change and real common sense is so important that I would cast a vote for RON PAUL as I am very pleased with his messages....I fear that he will not make the cut though. I like the idea of balance in the government....but fear deadlock if we do not get strong leadership. We are easily at a tipping point right now. We need real solid leadership in DC.

stevep
01-07-2008, 01:39 PM
And the hits just keep on coming! Nice work here bro, nice work. Stick and stones, sticks and stones. Your post, it does not appear that you teach Debate Class.

I <3 America (and I don't care for Randi Weingarten, she'd never vote for me, but you knew that).


viper,
little viper= ok
too much viper= too much viper.

calm down man.

sspielman
01-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I like what Ron Paul has to say, that is why, btw...I posted that transcript from the interview he did with John Stossel....unfortunately, his type of straight talk and common sense approach is lost on the whole....surely we didn't rise from apes -- let's get back to arguing about issues that government has no business debating -- group.

With respect to Ron Paul...I am most shocked that the Republican party hasn't made any concerted effort to attack him and shut him up......sure, he has been flicked off a couple of debates, but by and large, no concerted effort. If he continues to post in the double digits in a few more primaries, I am sure they will have to act on the Ron Paul "problem"....the problem being that his message is one that the existing structure really doesn't want heard....At this point, the reaction is to try to marginalise him as something of a crackpot. I would suggest that tactic is a dangerous one....Mr. Paul's primary message is a return to Constitutional law and limited government...It's a risky thing to marginalise THAT message....

Viper
01-07-2008, 01:46 PM
viper,
little viper= ok
too much viper= too much viper.

calm down man.

viper = quite calm
viper = was insulted several times (see above).
viper = when it comes to debate/defense thereof, he rides a fixie :D
viper = needs Johan Santana to come to NY, badly.
stevep = you could say the same (above) to others (as well) atmo/word up.
viper = curious to see results tomorrow night (predicts Obama and Romney).
viper = short answer to this thread? I'm not worried to be an American tonight or tomorrow night. :cool:

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 01:47 PM
I like what Ron Paul has to say, that is why, btw...I posted that transcript from the interview he did with John Stossel....

It read more like an infomercial. If a guy is going to say some pretty wild things like dismantling the gov't he should be asked tougher questions about that. Not that he could get it done, but he should be forced to prove he really knows what he is talking about. Stossel was not being a journalist atmo.

JG

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 01:50 PM
With respect to Ron Paul...I am most shocked that the Republican party hasn't made any concerted effort to attack him and shut him up......

.At this point, the reaction is to try to marginalise him as something of a crackpot...

I think the strategy is that he will marginalise himself as a crack pot. Why waste money doing it for him?

JG

sspielman
01-07-2008, 01:59 PM
I think the strategy is that he will marginalise himself as a crack pot. Why waste money doing it for him?

JG
This is a serious question....Do you really think that he IS a crackpot? I met him several years ago at Libertarian function. My impression was that he was very genuine and EXTREMELY intelligent. When I see him interviewed, it is very clear how nervous he is (Still... after all this time on the campaign) as compared to the Dr. Paul with whom I chatted...

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 02:05 PM
This is a serious question....Do you really think that he IS a crackpot? I met him several years ago at Libertarian function. My impression was that he was very genuine and EXTREMELY intelligent. When I see him interviewed, it is very clear how nervous he is (Still... after all this time on the campaign) as compared to the Dr. Paul with whom I chatted...

I did not say he was.I think that with a guy who's beliefs have been fringe, the status quo does not need to attack. And that is why we have not seen it.

As far as what i believe......I don't know enough about him to say he is or not. So many of the groups that support him are crackpots and that gives me concern. I also don't mesh well with his tradiditional right social positions.

JG

stevep
01-07-2008, 02:05 PM
viper = needs Johan Santana to come to NY, badly.


nay, desperately...

Len J
01-07-2008, 02:22 PM
This is a serious question....Do you really think that he IS a crackpot? I met him several years ago at Libertarian function. My impression was that he was very genuine and EXTREMELY intelligent. When I see him interviewed, it is very clear how nervous he is (Still... after all this time on the campaign) as compared to the Dr. Paul with whom I chatted...

The only thing a mainstream candidate could do by shining a light on Ron Paul is to legitimize him....don't hold your breath. Only way his positions will get adressed is if he scores in the top 3 in a couple of primary states.

Even if he got elected, the only thing he would do is parlize the government......nothing would get done.

Len

jeffg
01-07-2008, 02:23 PM
It read more like an infomercial. If a guy is going to say some pretty wild things like dismantling the gov't he should be asked tougher questions about that. Not that he could get it done, but he should be forced to prove he really knows what he is talking about. Stossel was not being a journalist atmo.

JG

Stossel has always been a crackpot and has not been a journalist in the real sense of the word for a long time (if ever)

Gimme a frickin break!

saab2000
01-07-2008, 02:27 PM
Even if he got elected, the only thing he would do is parlize the government......nothing would get done.

Len

I hate to say it, but not very much productive is getting done now either....

zap
01-07-2008, 02:27 PM
snipped

I like what Ron Paul has to say, that is why, btw...I posted that transcript from the interview he did with John Stossel....unfortunately, his type of straight talk and common sense approach is lost on the whole.....

Please read the transcript again.

On the one hand he says the federal government should keep people safe, but then wants to eliminate departments that do just that. There is more to too keeping people safe than having a standing army. One could go on.

Striving to keep government as small as possible is a reasonable goal and there is plenty of federal pork to be shed, but listening to Ron Paul, I don't think he has a grasp of what government agencies do.

sspielman
01-07-2008, 02:37 PM
snipped



Please read the transcript again.

On the one hand he says the federal government should keep people safe, but then wants to eliminate departments that do just that. There is more to too keeping people safe than having a standing army. One could go on.

Striving to keep government as small as possible is a reasonable goal and there is plenty of federal pork to be shed, but listening to Ron Paul, I don't think he has a grasp of what government agencies do.


The second part of what he proposes (after the elimination of a department or function) is that the responsibility be returned to the states.....in most cases, they already have a duplicate, parallel department that regulates/ administers the same function...

sspielman
01-07-2008, 02:41 PM
The only thing a mainstream candidate could do by shining a light on Ron Paul is to legitimize him....don't hold your breath. Only way his positions will get adressed is if he scores in the top 3 in a couple of primary states.

Even if he got elected, the only thing he would do is parlize the government......nothing would get done.

Len

There is a school of thought that posits that government paralysis is a good thing! ...If we were in a more comfortable spot, in better times, I think the idea has more merit....but we have enough challenges right now that we could really benefit from some effective leadership....

Len J
01-07-2008, 03:13 PM
I hate to say it, but not very much productive is getting done now either....

May not be as productive, but at least the ball is moving. :rolleyes:

Len

Len J
01-07-2008, 03:15 PM
There is a school of thought that posits that government paralysis is a good thing! ...If we were in a more comfortable spot, in better times, I think the idea has more merit....but we have enough challenges right now that we could really benefit from some effective leadership....


I agree with both premises.

Ron Paul as president would be a disaster with the current full plate of issues we have to recover from.

Len

Fixed
01-07-2008, 04:25 PM
bro this thread is why some cat is makin it big being a hope monger
kids want some hope for the future .....
cheers imho :beer:

J.Greene
01-07-2008, 04:32 PM
bro this thread is why some cat is makin it big being a hope monger
kids want some hope for the future .....
cheers imho :beer:

You should consult bro........

we need a stickered up fixed gear leaning againt the wall in the white house atmo

JG

97CSI
01-07-2008, 04:44 PM
Ron Paul and the libertarians are like talk radio and our current administration. Simple (i.e. for simpletons) solutions for extremely complex problems. Perhaps a religious view? Might have worked in the middle of the 19th century (though probably not), but certainly not in our very complex society of ~300 millions souls (lost, or not) in the midst of our even more complex world (to say nothing of those outside our meager little world). We suffer from wanting 'someone like me' to govern. That is worst we could hope for. We need the most intelligent folks we can get. Unfortunately, unlike the song, we usually get what we want and not what we need from elections.

BBB
01-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Well, are you worried to be an American tonight or not? Then again you could be writing from Australia or New Zealand. I hear great things about New Zealand. Those damned Kiwis keep winning The America's Cup, drives me nuts.

Actually it's the Swiss that keep winning the cup (with some help from New Zealanders).

Avispa
01-07-2008, 05:05 PM
Ok, we are not the only country in trouble, I suppose :D :

Evans notes training fears in Australia

By Susan Westemeyer

Cadel Evans of Team Silence-Lotto is a road racer, but admits that sometimes training on the road can be scary and dangerous. "Honestly, the scariest part of my job is riding on the Great Ocean Road, which I live on, between Christmas and New Year," he told the Sydney Morning Herald.

"I've cycled in every continent in the world, other than Antarctica, and it's incredible. Drivers in America and Australia just have attitudes. I don't necessarily say attitudes towards cyclists, but towards other road users," the 2007 ProTour champion said. "People just don't realize the danger they're causing other people."

What he most fears are trailers that are wider than the cars pulling them. "I've nearly had my leg torn off so many times because of that, and people are just completely unaware of it."

..A..

soulspinner
01-07-2008, 05:40 PM
maybe a little modesty would go far when we tell the rest of the world how great we are .
imho
cheers


And you are far too modest. Lotta wisdom in that statement.... :beer:

djg
01-07-2008, 05:53 PM
...
Nevertheless, in addition to smart, dbrk is knowledgeable and wise. Me, I'm just smart.

Smart enough to marry a real doctor. And yet not smart enough to stay out of this thread, whereas I ... d'oh!

JohnS
01-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Ron Paul and the libertarians are like talk radio and our current administration. Simple (i.e. for simpletons) solutions for extremely complex problems. Perhaps a religious view? .
I don't think the Libertarians have much to do with religion. They advocate a big change, but that's because they believe that government has stepped into too many parts of our lives in the past 100 yrs. Paul says that he would lead according to the Constitution. If it ain't in there, the guv'mint has no business meddling in it.

DukeHorn
01-07-2008, 06:32 PM
I'm always baffled when the debate technique of right wing conservatives runs along the line of "if you don't like the US, you can live elsewhere." I guess you shouldn't criticize your kids because if you don't like them, you can give them up for adoption. Or if you are mad with your wife one day, you should get a divorce. Or if you don't like your job, you should quit. Forget the nuances of trying to make a relationship better or working out problems, just drop things and run. How errrrr simplistic.

Let's just forget that blacks had difficulty voting just 40 years ago or that we're still fighting teaching creationism as science in this country. Just 4 years ago, on a campus of a reputable university, I saw an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a "sand ni**er*.

The US isn't the worse of any country by far, but to believe that it can be improved doesn't make us haters but thinkers. You do know that the Enlightenment came about through questioning and reason?

1centaur
01-07-2008, 06:34 PM
Team Silence-Lotto...

There's an omerta joke in there somewhere.

andy mac
01-07-2008, 07:28 PM
tiger woods works on his golf game, bob dylan writes new songs, ferrari evolves their F1 cars, lance questioned his training and equipment.

nothing wrong with trying to do things better.

sitting around thinking you are are the ***** is when the rot sets in.


:beer:

Fixed
01-07-2008, 07:47 PM
I'm always baffled when the debate technique of right wing conservatives runs along the line of "if you don't like the US, you can live elsewhere." I guess you shouldn't criticize your kids because if you don't like them, you can give them up for adoption. Or if you are mad with your wife one day, you should get a divorce. Or if you don't like your job, you should quit. Forget the nuances of trying to make a relationship better or working out problems, just drop things and run. How errrrr simplistic.

Let's just forget that blacks had difficulty voting just 40 years ago or that we're still fighting teaching creationism as science in this country. Just 4 years ago, on a campus of a reputable university, I saw an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a "sand ni**er*.

The US isn't the worse of any country by far, but to believe that it can be improved doesn't make us haters but thinkers. You do know that the Enlightenment came about through questioning and reason?
nice bro imho cheers

Dekonick
01-07-2008, 07:56 PM
thats why we VOTE

That is your voice and the best way to bring about change. This is a great country, and it will remain so as long as we keep it a democracy.

VOTE!

VOTE!

V O T E !

flydhest
01-08-2008, 08:53 AM
Smart enough to marry a real doctor. And yet not smart enough to stay out of this thread, whereas I ... d'oh!
Nicely done. That's some of your best work.
:D

JohnS
01-08-2008, 09:18 AM
Why is it that they always show low voting percentages but when you ask them, everyone you know claims to have voted? :confused:

Ray
01-08-2008, 09:55 AM
Why is it that they always show low voting percentages but when you ask them, everyone you know claims to have voted? :confused:
Likely because just about everyone YOU know DOES vote. Everyone I know well votes. But there a a lot more people that I don't know than those I do know and LOT of them don't vote. And not many of them hang on this forum either. This is a pretty well-off bunch around here. Interested and active to one degree or another. That's not true of everyone.

-Ray

J.Greene
01-08-2008, 10:30 AM
This is a serious question....Do you really think that he IS a crackpot?

I change my opinion.....After looking into Mr. paul I do believe that he is a crackpot. His views on evolution force me to conclude the up or down vote by branding him a crackpot. It's a litmus test of sorts for me. I can get past almost every other single issue if a candidate has some positives, but a man that would have us forget everything we've learned since the world was flat disqualify's himself in my book.

JG

97CSI
01-08-2008, 10:35 AM
I change my opinion.....After looking into Mr. paul I do believe that he is a crackpot. His views on evolution force me to conclude the up or down vote by branding him a crackpot. It's a litmus test of sorts for me. I can get past almost every other single issue if a candidate has some positives, but a man that would have us forget everything we've learned since the world was flat disqualify's himself in my book. JGWhat he said. +1

I H8Rabbits
01-08-2008, 10:40 AM
http://www.holyobserver.com/issues/v01i11/images/TRex_lg.jpg

davids
01-08-2008, 11:09 AM
I change my opinion.....After looking into Mr. paul I do believe that he is a crackpot. His views on evolution force me to conclude the up or down vote by branding him a crackpot. It's a litmus test of sorts for me. I can get past almost every other single issue if a candidate has some positives, but a man that would have us forget everything we've learned since the world was flat disqualify's himself in my book.

JG
I agree (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=456161&postcount=69).

sspielman
01-08-2008, 11:30 AM
I change my opinion.....After looking into Mr. paul I do believe that he is a crackpot. His views on evolution force me to conclude the up or down vote by branding him a crackpot. It's a litmus test of sorts for me. I can get past almost every other single issue if a candidate has some positives, but a man that would have us forget everything we've learned since the world was flat disqualify's himself in my book.

JG


I really don't care what a candidate thinks about evolution.....what is far important to me is that he not force those beliefs down my throat.....

J.Greene
01-08-2008, 11:33 AM
what is far important to me is that he not force those beliefs down my throat.....

I do. Many fundamental christians view world events through a much different lens than I do.

JG

sspielman
01-08-2008, 11:43 AM
I do. Many fundamental christians view world events through a much different lens.

JG
I think Ron Paul is trying to hold onto the "earth is 6000 years old" constituency....after the primary, he will take a page out of the Clinton's strategy book (it's looking more like they won't be needing it) and move to the center.....

Ray
01-08-2008, 11:47 AM
I think Ron Paul is trying to hold onto the "earth is 6000 years old" constituency....after the primary, he will take a page out of the Clinton's strategy book (it's looking more like they won't be needing it) and move to the center.....
After the primary he goes back to congress and practicing medicine and, at that point, he doesn't have to move anywhere. Or do you actually think he's going to figure in the general election?

-Ray

J.Greene
01-08-2008, 11:48 AM
I think Ron Paul is trying to hold onto the "earth is 6000 years old" constituency....after the primary, he will take a page out of the Clinton's strategy book (it's looking more like they won't be needing it) and move to the center.....

so how does he represent change?

JG

sspielman
01-08-2008, 11:53 AM
After the primary he goes back to congress and practicing medicine and, at that point, he doesn't have to move anywhere. Or do you actually think he's going to figure in the general election?

-Ray


Maybe......He has sort of left the door open for a third party run. It's interesting, because his constituency is a mix of conservative republicans, disenfranchised democrats, pure libertarians who may not find an easy second choice....It very much is the "disenfranchised" vote. It might get real interesting if he runs as a third party....and Bloomberg is looking likely to do the same......If that is the case, we really could be looking at getting serious about discussing American politics beyond the tweedle dumb/tweedle dumber era of the two party monopoly.....

Fixed
01-08-2008, 12:00 PM
you cats watch the debate when mit said he would have a mandate and they ( j.m.) said i bet you would .. ....
cheers :beer:

Samster
01-08-2008, 12:03 PM
.

J.Greene
01-08-2008, 12:07 PM
rue paul's on the ballot?!

That is worse than the pictures of a resturant's selections in a menu. It looks good but leaves you disapointed, or worse, sick to your stomach.

JG

Samster
01-08-2008, 12:10 PM
That is worse than the pictures of a resturant's selections in a menu. It looks good but leaves you disapointed, or worse, sick to your stomach.

JGmoved (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=456832&postcount=11) to a more appropo thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=38482). atmo.