Odd QC on 'nago..

[bostondrunk]

Anyone here ever seen quality control issues on steel colnago's??
I recently purchased a used Colnago Technos from a forum member. I'm noticing two odd things.
1. The clover 'stamp' on the rear brake bridge almost looks home made, the cloves aren't the same size, and the base of it is crooked..
2. The water bottle screws/bosses on the seat tube are way off center. When I mount a cage onto them, the cage points off to the side considerably.

I've tried to capture both in the below pics...:

[OldDog]

I ordered a MasterXlite in 2002. It came in with a dented headtube and the seat lug had huge voids in them from lack of solder. I had ordered a yellow frame and matching precisia fork, that came in black. The distributer was not cooporative about correcting the problem. I canceled and went to see erichie.

[soulspinner]

I had a Masterlight that I had to bend the bottlecage to make straight also. The steel fork rode like a haywagon so I gave it to a buddy who never built it up. To me the front end steered too slowly and the new light steel frames ride much smoother (and Im not big enough to need all that stiffness). Heresy, I know, to the revered brand.

[e-RICHIE]

some consolation atmo -


"With a hand-made and hand-finished watch, no two
watches will be the same. This is because the work is
done by hand and depends on the skill, and often the
mood, of the man making the watch."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/style/rwatchgarage.php#end_main

"The strenght of the AHCI can ironically be inconsistency
in each piece, but all made with very great quality...just
like canvass paintings, sculpture, wine."
http://ahci.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpostf&fi=16&pi=2373276&ti=396741&s =0

[barry1021]

them, which is why I am steering away from picking up a ML that I once coveted.

b21

[A.L.Breguet]

It's a long way from the variability of handcraft to the dissapointment of shoddy workmanship.
That goes for both bikes and watches. I've seen and had to deal with both.

[e-RICHIE]

It's a long way from the variability of handcraft to the dissapointment of shoddy workmanship.
That goes for both bikes and watches. I've seen and had to deal with both.
what we have here is the variability of handcraft, not
the disappointment of shoddy workmanship atmo.

[goonster]

Some frames are brazed before the mid-morning espresso, and some after.

[TMB]

I have never seen a steel Colnago that was without "issues"

[BdaGhisallo]

I got a C-40 once that had the front derr tab riveted in the wrong place, too far around the seat tube to the front, such that I couldn't get the fr derr parallel with the chain. The tab wasn't bent since I got a tab from a mate's C-40 to compare. The rivets were in the wrong freaking place!! And this on a $3,000 frameset. Never again, I swore. I have been a happy consumer of Steelman and Strong frames since then.... all with clamp on fr derr's!

[michael white]

hmm,

well, my Colnago Classic probably has similar "issues" if that's what you want to call them. The clover on the bridge is probably not super uniform, although I don't have any problems with other fittings. I have no complaints at all about this bike; it's exactly what I expected and I enjoy it a lot. I wouldn't race it if I were to race, but it makes a great longer distance bike, or training bike when I feel like wearing wool with stripes. I just think there are different ways of looking at what is an "issue" and what is not, as Richard seems to be pointing out. Actually I think my Colnago is better made than other Italian steel frames I've owned, and there have been a few.

best,
mw

[OldDog]

My 'nago was of shoddy workmanship and Trialtiares actions, or non actions were the same. Handbrazed or not, a master Xlite is still a production item subject to some QC. A bicycle frame is a precision tool and the quality of build and fuction of the relevent components, brazeon's, lugs and even the tubing is expected of be of acceptable quality.

[Grant McLean]

Imperfection is perfection.

Shuddup and ride :D

-g

[BumbleBeeDave]

what we have here is the variability of handcraft, not
the disappointment of shoddy workmanship atmo.

. . . I have to politely disagree, despite what I fully acknowledge is your VASTLY superior experience. Colnago is one of the premiere cycling frame makers and they haven't come up with a way to consistently get the bottle boss holes drilled on center? That's over the line into shoddy. Way over the line, atmo . . .

But it brings up a question . . . when you are making a frame, do you drill the holes for the bottle bosses before or after you assemble the tubes? I'm trying to imagine how this could have happened. I would think either way, they would have some sort of guide to either hold the tubes in proper alignment while they are welding (if the holes were drilled in advance) or hold the whole completed frame in proper alignment while the holes are drilled if they do it post-assembly.

BBD

[manet]

WWJD

[J.Greene]

Colnago lugged bike = Shimano
Richard Sachs = Campagnolo

JG


. . . I have to politely disagree, despite what I fully acknowledge is your VASTLY superior experience. Colnago is one of the premiere cycling frame makers and they haven't come up with a way to consistently get the bottle boss holes drilled on center? That's over the line into shoddy. Way over the line, atmo . . .

But it brings up a question . . . when you are making a frame, do you drill the holes for the bottle bosses before or after you assemble the tubes? I'm trying to imagine how this could have happened. I would think either way, they would have some sort of guide to either hold the tubes in proper alignment while they are welding (if the holes were drilled in advance) or hold the whole completed frame in proper alignment while the holes are drilled if they do it post-assembly.

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . I have to politely disagree, despite what I fully acknowledge is your VASTLY superior experience. Colnago is one of the premiere cycling frame makers and they haven't come up with a way to consistently get the bottle boss holes drilled on center? That's over the line into shoddy. Way over the line, atmo . . .

But it brings up a question . . . when you are making a frame, do you drill the holes for the bottle bosses before or after you assemble the tubes? I'm trying to imagine how this could have happened. I would think either way, they would have some sort of guide to either hold the tubes in proper alignment while they are welding (if the holes were drilled in advance) or hold the whole completed frame in proper alignment while the holes are drilled if they do it post-assembly.

BBD
shoddy needs a measurement. all i see is an opinion
and a pic. i also need to consider that in the scheme
of producing ??? 1,000s of frames a year, there is a
range. and even if this one is at the extreme, it could
fit within the range. not all eggs are perfectly soft-boiled.


ps i add all my braze-ons to the pipes before the frames are built.

[BdaGhisallo]

For me, the lesson I learned, which would apply to many other folk, is to resist the allure of marketing and get a frame from a craftsman and not a manufacturer. Sure there are many manufacturers who make a quality product but with a craftsman, I believe you are more likely to get high quality and what you are looking for than with a manufacturer, assuming you pick a highly regarded craftsman of course.

With high-volume manufacturers that outsource their production or design firms who contract out the manufacturing, there are too many opportunities to go wrong and have those errors not be caught, and too many steps in the chain that gets it to you, to really have a handle on things, and have folks in that chain feel "responsible".

I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but that's the feeling I get.

[bostondrunk]

For me, the lesson I learned, which would apply to many other folk, is to resist the allure of marketing and get a frame from a craftsman and not a manufacturer. .

I agree, but this frame cost me around $550 give or take, and was meant as a spare/rain/winter frame. After doing some further assembly, the rear wheel doesn't go in anywhere near centered either....... I put a campy rear alignment tool in the rear dropouts (the one where the two cups face each other) and its off, heck, looks like the chainstays are different lengths! I know dropout screws might help.....who knows....
<sigh>............... :(

[Big Dan]

Put a couple of Campagnolo decals on that sled and ride........

:cool:

[bostondrunk]

Put a couple of Campagnolo decals on that sled and ride........

:cool:
I doubt it would ride straight.... :argue:

[sspielman]

I have seen enough issues with Colnagos that one wonders how they maintain their reputation with the cycling general public.....Cosmetic issues aside, I am yet to see one that is in acceptable alignment..... Interestingly, they seem to get their carbon frames pretty much right....

[YO!!!]

My '70s Cinelli Super Corsa had the point of the top tube / head tube lug filed very slightly off center. It was a subtle reminder that some one actually touched this frame.

I always needed to lean slightly to the left to compensate. :rolleyes:

[BumbleBeeDave]

For me, the lesson I learned, which would apply to many other folk, is to resist the allure of marketing and get a frame from a craftsman and not a manufacturer. Sure there are many manufacturers who make a quality product but with a craftsman, I believe you are more likely to get high quality and what you are looking for than with a manufacturer, assuming you pick a highly regarded craftsman of course.

. . . does a "craftsman" become a "manufacturer?" Is it a number of frames, or does it include peripheral issues such as reputation, racing history, referrals from friends, bike mags, etc. . . . ?

Dave Kirk and Richie . . . Obviously "craftsmen"
C-Dale and Trek . . . Obviously "manufacturers"
What about Indy Fab, Seven, Serotta? . . .

BBD

[flux]

Back when I was on Team Navigators my training bike was a "Dream B-Stay". Worst bike I have ever ridden. That thing felt so crooked. I found my self stopping on rides and double checking the length of each crank arm thinking they must be mis-matched... that frame was just awful.

My C-40 race bikes however were a completely different story.

[flux]

. . . does a "craftsman" become a "manufacturer?" Is it a number of frames, or does it include peripheral issues such as reputation, racing history, referrals from friends, bike mags, etc. . . . ?

Dave Kirk and Richie . . . Obviously "craftsmen"
C-Dale and Trek . . . Obviously "manufacturers"
What about Indy Fab, Seven, Serotta? . . .

BBD

I would think "manufacturing" refers to more than one set of hands touching any one given product. This would make all the above listed save Kirk and Sachs "manufacturers".

[Grant McLean]

With high-volume manufacturers that outsource their production or design firms who contract out the manufacturing.

Just to clarify the language, I think to be a "manufacturer" they need to be
the guys who make them. Call them a "brand" if they're the designer and seller.

There are those who are in the business of selling bicycles, and there are those
whose business is making bicycles. The manufacturer is in the business of
making them.

-g

[flux]

...

[J.Greene]

. . . does a "craftsman" become a "manufacturer?"
BBD

Lets ask her (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsEteYRzbq0&feature=user).

JG

[A.L.Breguet]

man•u•fac•ture

Pronunciation: (man"yu-fak'chur), [key]
—n., v., -tured, -tur•ing.

—n.
1. the making of goods or wares by manual labor or by machinery, esp. on a large scale: the manufacture of television sets.
2. the making or producing of anything; generation: the manufacture of body cells.
3. the thing or material manufactured; product: Plastic is an important manufacture.

—v.t.
1. to make or produce by hand or machinery, esp. on a large scale.
2. to work up (material) into form for use: to manufacture cotton.
3. to invent fictitiously; fabricate; concoct: to manufacture an account of the incident.
4. to produce in a mechanical way without inspiration or originality: to manufacture a daily quota of poetry.

[stevep]

shoddy needs a measurement. all i see is an opinion
and a pic. i also need to consider that in the scheme
of producing ??? 1,000s of frames a year, there is a
range. and even if this one is at the extreme, it could
fit within the range. not all eggs are perfectly soft-boiled.


ps i add all my braze-ons to the pipes before the frames are built.

richie,
some of these things are inexcusably bad. they sell for a lot of money and its like there is no qc whatever. its like paying for a ferrari and getting a yugo.
to compare one of these shiitboxes to a frame made by any of the builders who frequent this forum is absurd.

[Louis]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=35503&stc=1

Justin, you know that some guy in England was arrested for doing that with a bike... :p

[BumbleBeeDave]

Lets ask her (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsEteYRzbq0&feature=user).

JG

Good luck with that. She must be freezing with her zipper all the way down like that.

BBD

[flux]

Justin, you know that some guy in England was arrested for doing that with a bike... :p

even funnier than your post (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TwUegUaePy8)

:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

richie,
some of these things are inexcusably bad. they sell for a lot of money and its like there is no qc whatever. its like paying for a ferrari and getting a yugo.
to compare one of these shiitboxes to a frame made by any of the builders who frequent this forum is absurd.
pooch pooch pooch...
these things?
there are no things here.
only some pics and an opinion by a second hand owner of a factory frame.
the pantographing on the bridge is a no-brainer here. it doesn't deserve
any attention atmo. the boss thing is conjecture unless someone can
ascertain how away from the centreline it's off atmo. ps i didn't compare
this to the work of any other builder here or otherwise.

i spelled centreline the british way to show proper rearing.

[Dr. Doofus]

...

flux rocks

that 'nago rocks

that pose just does not rock

(ducking)

[Viper]

Lets ask her (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsEteYRzbq0&feature=user).

JG

I fell in love. I'd pay her to read the paper to me every morning. Hot Eastern Euro women just rock.

[bostondrunk]

pooch pooch pooch...
these things?
there are no things here.
only some pics and an opinion by a second hand owner of a factory frame.


True enough. Below is a pic with cages mounted. These cages line up straight with each other on two other frames I have. Still doesn't give an exact measurement, but shows a bit more than the pic I posted earlier..
I could deal with this, but the fact that the rear triangle also seems to be out of whack really sucks....

[BumbleBeeDave]

Is it so far off center that your gigantic quads hit it during the sprint?

BBD

[flux]

flux rocks

that 'nago rocks

that pose just does not rock

(ducking)

They made me do it. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=REycCu49Vvk)

[A.L.Breguet]

Is it so far off center that your gigantic quads hit it during the sprint?

BBD

Calves. Mesomorph.

[DarrenCT]

attention:

maybe this is why jack brunk is selling all his colnago bikes?

[bostondrunk]

Is it so far off center that your gigantic quads hit it during the sprint?

BBD

Exactly what I was concerned about!!! My sprint is especially strong now that I'm drinking 7 espressos per day...... :D

[brians647]

attention:

maybe this is why jack brunk is selling all his colnago bikes?

Pfft.. whatever. Some people see flaws. I see character. Who wants to date some perfect supermodel? I like character in my women (singular, in my case) and bikes. So what if both seem a bit crooked and out of whack at times...
:beer:

[shinomaster]

I think that all e-Richie means is that there is always going to be variation among hand made products, be it pottery, kilims, bikes and most especially gourmet restaurant food. If you want a carbon copy of something, get a Trek or a Giant., or eat at McDonald's. There will always be human error. It is unavoidable. All my pottery has a flaw in some way, it's one reason I keep doing it.
This does not mean that I wouldn't be pissed that my new $2000 frame was crooked and looks like drunk made it in his garage.

[Jack Brunk]

attention:

maybe this is why jack brunk is selling all his colnago bikes?
No way. I've never had one problem with any of the Colnago's that I've owned.

[bostondrunk]

I think that all e-Richie means is that there is always going to be variation among hand made products, be it pottery, kilims, bikes and most especially gourmet restaurant food. If you want a carbon copy of something, get a Trek or a Giant., or eat at McDonald's. There will always be human error. It is unavoidable. All my pottery has a flaw in some way, it's one reason I keep doing it.


Shino,
I'll give you a good deal on my 'custom' colnago... :)

[Erik.Lazdins]

Colnago advertises that it is the only bicycle manufacturer that has ISO certification. For a company to achieve this they invest a significant business resource dedicated to ensuring a quality process. Then, once the process is in place, they invest to have an audit. ISO does not assure quality only that the process is consistent. That said, I'm curious to how close to an outlier this frameset is.

[RudAwkning]

Pfft.. whatever. Some people see flaws. I see character. Who wants to date some perfect supermodel? I like character in my women (singular, in my case) and bikes. So what if both seem a bit crooked and out of whack at times...
:beer:

Out of whack is one thing. I liken a misaligned rear end on an expensive frame to dating somebody like this. I'll take the perfect supermodel.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Out of whack is one thing. I liken a misaligned rear end on an expensive frame to dating somebody like this. I'll take the perfect supermodel.

How did you get ahold of that pic of me?!?!

BBD

[Cinci Jim]

On some level everything is hand made. Even a blacksmith uses tools in forming metal. It does not matter if you are making 500 bike frames a year or 450,000 Toyota Camrys - Building to spec is building to spec. Boeing is going to crank out how many Dreamliners in the first year? I'm sure it is a lot less than most "craftsman" frame makers. Does this qualify the Dreamliners as "handmade"?

My 15 years of experience working for a large manufacturing company have taught me Quality cannot be inspected into a product. It must be built in to the product from the beginning. This increases efficency, reduces costs & increases profit.

Poor quality damages your brand for years to come - look at the Detroit 3 - they are just now slowly recovering from quality problems years ago.

[cpg]

Boston drunk,

This is par for the course for those Colnagos. There ain't much time for lovin' in a 45 minute frame. It takes longer to paint those things. The reason folks will say "Yea but my C40 was great" is because they were not made by the usual suspects. If you can't glue those C40's up straight well you got no business building bikes. I agree with Pucci. It would be one thing if these things were selling for what they're worth but it's quite another when the QC is viewed in context to the retail price.

Glad you didn't pay a bundle for it. Put some aluminum cages on and bend them into centerline. Adjuster screws to the rescue if the drops are horizontals otherwise you'll have to live with the chain stay issue.

Curt

[stevep]

All my pottery has a flaw in some way, it's one reason I keep doing it.



shino,
that mug you sent me is flawed?

aye.

[stevep]

Out of whack is one thing. I liken a misaligned rear end on an expensive frame to dating somebody like this. I'll take the perfect supermodel.

hey, is that a real photo?
man, theres a fit problem for you guys.
phew.

[e-RICHIE]

hey, is that a real photo?
man, theres a fit problem for you guys.
phew.
that's when a framebuilder says no atmo.

[swoop]

hey, is that a real photo?
man, theres a fit problem for you guys.
phew.

she'll never get that block of wood into the shoe.

[bostondrunk]

Boston drunk,

Adjuster screws to the rescue if the drops are horizontals otherwise you'll have to live with the chain stay issue.

Curt

I was wondering about drop out screws. I could use them to get the rear wheel straight. So if the rear triangle is out of alignment, but the wheel is straight due to the alignment screws, what does that mean for the way the bike will handle??

[DarrenCT]

I was wondering about drop out screws. I could use them to get the rear wheel straight. So if the rear triangle is out of alignment, but the wheel is straight due to the alignment screws, what does that mean for the way the bike will handle??

put it on ebay and let some other sucker deal with it

(did i just say that?)

[stevep]

I was wondering about drop out screws. I could use them to get the rear wheel straight. So if the rear triangle is out of alignment, but the wheel is straight due to the alignment screws, what does that mean for the way the bike will handle??


it means its good enough for you,

[jerk]

is an entry level production steel frame. its fine....a technos ain't a c50 or even a masterlyght. the bike was mediocre then, its old and used and still mediocre now. the finish level is consumate with what it is. its not a new frame, so who knows what's up with the rear end, but the bottle bosses and clover leafs?


jerk

[shinomaster]

Shino,
I'll give you a good deal on my 'custom' colnago... :)

Ok, what size?

[shinomaster]

is an entry level production steel frame. its fine....a technos ain't a c50 or even a masterlyght. the bike was mediocre then, its old and used and still mediocre now. the finish level is consumate with what it is. its not a new frame, so who knows what's up with the rear end, but the bottle bosses and clover leafs?


jerk


I was shopping for Colnagos back in the day and the Technos was just under a master in price. It wasn't entry level. It had good tubing and was designed for lighter riders.

[bostondrunk]

Ok, what size?

'55' in colnago sizing

[Polyglot]

How many of you would buy a bike labeled Losa for the same price as a bike labeled Colnago? This question is relevant as it was almost certainly Losa who built this frame.

Some people need to buy a 'brand' and/or pay a high price to 'know' that they are buying something good. It is my guess that this is the case with the OP. There is no shame in this, as the things that make a good bike are not generally outwardly visible or measurable. So price and brand are indeed perhaps better help at selecting something with a better chance of being a valid choice than most variables available to the person making the choice. A Brand cannot generally be built up and maintained over time without some support. The same goes for price, where a product cannot maintain a high price over time without offering something at least resembling a value for the money spent. It therefore follows that buying a known brand that generally sells for a premium price is more than likely to result in you getting an acceptable item. This is indeed the case with Colnago.

Given that the bike was purchased second hand but was still meant to be used as a primary bike for part of the year, it would not surprise me if the OP had not perhaps already extended himself to buy the used Colnago, thinking that in so doing, buying a known and respected 'brand', he was buying an item of virtue and perfection. Instead he found that he had bought a 'used bike' just like any of many others. The two claimed 'defects' are somewhat negligible as they have no serious influence on the ride of the bike and any displeasure with these 'features/defects' should rightly only be made to the seller, the previous owner. As a second-hand buyer, you can not lay blame for such things upon the builder, Losa/Colnago. For all anybody knows, the builder might have sold the bike, declaring these discrepancies at a special price to the previous owner. I have known many who would gladly accept a frame with the described 'features/defects' and try to play it up to get some kind of discount. As for the rear end being out of alignment, where has the bike been since it left Losa? Are you sure that your wheel is properly dished? I have witnessed too many people who claimed their new frame was out of alignment only to discover that it was actually their previous bike that was out of alignment. It is also quite simple to cold-set these frames into alignment, so I would not be overly concerned.

All told, I agree with those who have said to simply get out and ride the thing. I cannot personally understand how your ride pleasure could ever be predicated upon by having a perfect bike, that had to have been purchased at a specially cheap price.

[e-RICHIE]

How many of you would buy a bike labeled Losa for the same price as a bike labeled Colnago? This question is relevant as it was almost certainly Losa who built this frame.

drift -
i was at losa's shop in 1979 and sent there by
antonio columbo for reasons that had to do with
my then italophiliac (is that a word?) framebuilding
interests. gianni losa's shop was the stuff of legends,
and remided me of the scene in the man with the golden
gun when bond meets the gunsmith. the shop was like
a lab and quite unlike what i had seen elsewhere in
milan and the veneto region. in addition to showing
me everything i asked about and wanted to see done
(his way), he also showed me the room where all the
panto-ed frame parts were kept for when he made
the frames that carried other marques. in that time,
losa frames were the part time gig; his real job was
making the high(er) end frames that we though were
made cross town in cusano milanino or other villages
whose names are familiar here atmo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

is an entry level production steel frame. its fine....a technos ain't a c50 or even a masterlyght. the bike was mediocre then, its old and used and still mediocre now. the finish level is consumate with what it is. its not a new frame, so who knows what's up with the rear end, but the bottle bosses and clover leafs? . . . jerk

. . . in the past, even if it is just an "entry level production steel frame" it doesn't reflect well on the maker to have problems with the basic alignment of the frame that may well affect handling and possibly safety in high stress situations.

Colnago has set a high bar for themselves over the years with their advertising, their involvement with professional teams, and even their attention-getting paint jobs. People expect great things from them, and IMHO that creates a de facto standard they have a responsibility to live up to. If Colnago's attitude coincides with Jerk's, and their attitude is that it's "good enough" to have bottle bosses off center and misalignment of the frame for an entry level frame, then that is inevitably going to affect my willingness as a careful shopper to buy any Colnago frame, even the high end ones.

If you're looking to get a job, you need to make sure your resume is perfect. No typos. Because the image you project is that if you don't care enough as an applicant to do your best on your application, then the guy doing the hiring can't be expected to think you will do your best for him if you get the job. So he goes and hires someone who he has reasonable expectations WILL do their best if hired.

If an entry level cyclist buys this frame and notices these flaws, will he then come back later and buy a C-50? I certainly wouldn't.

BBD

[jerk]

I was shopping for Colnagos back in the day and the Technos was just under a master in price. It wasn't entry level. It had good tubing and was designed for lighter riders.

it was a production mediocre bike with decent geometry and an ok tubeset. the c40 and the master were the real bikes in the line at the time. the technos was an alternative in the us market to an em cords or a serotta atlanta, and probably the bronze medal winner in a contest between the three.

[Samster]

i used to work in a bike shop in NJ when I was in high school (late 70s). it was called the "Montclair Bikery" on Bloomfield Avenue. Alex was the owner (can't remember his last name). back then, we'd refer to nagos as "pre-crashed."

[jerk]

bbd-
is it possible for you to actually read something in context for once? a used frame with off center bosses and an unknown history that produced a misalligned rear triangle on the internet hardly qualifies as colnago's resume...a passive aggressive assertion that i believe an "unsafe" bicycle is "good enough" is also beneath even your level of decorum.

you know nothing of standards inherent in racing bicycle frame production nor do any of us know anything about the specific history of the bike in question. suffice it to say, colnago doesnt need defense from me and a misinformed questioning of their ethics based on supposition ain't going to hurt their sales.

nonetheless, attack ernie for his outsourceing, his whoring of himself and his firm to people and causes he feels to be his cultural superiors, or even his haircut and gaudy stupid aesethtic sensibilities. don't attack him for what is part and parcel of making racing bicycles in a European. production setting. it was the job of bike shops in those days to allign frames and forks, cut ancd chase threads and do the vast majority of finishing work. a midlevel steel, outsourced, overpriced steel colnago prepped and assembled properly makes a wonderful bike.

if you only knew,
jerk

[soulspinner]

Im gonna get crushed for this but why do people love Colnago geometry. Its slow, mine had a 71.8 headtube and a 43 rake. It steered like my 85 ford pickup used to. My Strong kills it downhill. And it was an overbuilt tank. Just sayin...flame away. :p

[Climb01742]

Im gonna get crushed for this but why do people love Colnago geometry. Its slow, mine had a 71.8 headtube and a 43 rake. It steered like my 85 ford pickup used to. My Strong kills it downhill. And it was an overbuilt tank. Just sayin...flame away. :p

i think it's different strokes, different folks. with some breaks in the weather lately, i was able to get my c50 out on the road twice the last few days. man, it just works for me. for whatever reason(s), that fit/geo just synch up for me. interestingly (or maybe it's oddly) a masterlight i got as a winter bike is sort of uninspiring. it's straight and ok, but just sort of "blah". perfect for the trainer. :D it's just so freakin' personal. what sings for one person, can be so off-key for someone else. part of what makes bikes so glorious and frustrating, eh?

[Sandy]

Colnagos are made by people. People make mistakes. They are not perfect. Neither are the bikes.

Richard Sachs bikes are made by Spencer. Dogs are perfect. Richard Sachs bikes are perfect.



Spencer

PS- I get paid in milk bone dog biscuits. I want a raise. A little roast beef would be good every so often. :rolleyes:

[William]

BD, It's Italian, has heritage, and you're not qualified to question it. Just get out and ride that wracked piece of cycling history.


With love,
William XOXOX

[bostondrunk]

Holy crap! :rolleyes:

OK.......I bought a used frame. I did not spend $550 on a Colnago thinking it was perfect. But it would have been nice if the seller had indicated that:

The water bottle on the seat tube points off to the side
The rear triangle is out of alignment significantly.
The clover on the brake bridge was hand made with a cheap steak knife (or looks that way)

These are things that I thought would be mentioned on any frame someone sells, regardless of whether it is a eRitchie, a colnago, or a Giant.
Oh, the box was in fine shape when it arrived, no sign of anything impacting it.
Anyway, its not a lot of $$, not enough to bother arguing with the seller about it, it was just disappointing.

[e-RICHIE]

Anyway, its not a lot of $$, it was just disappointing.
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stqnhuIBGJw) might help.
the universe is everything atmo.

[flux]

Im gonna get crushed for this but why do people love Colnago geometry. Its slow, mine had a 71.8 headtube and a 43 rake. It steered like my 85 ford pickup used to. My Strong kills it downhill. And it was an overbuilt tank. Just sayin...flame away. :p

They only feel slow if you ride them slow. When you go fast it's a different story.

[thwart]

to compare one of these shiitboxes to a frame made by any of the builders who frequent this forum is absurd. the fact that the rear triangle also seems to be out of whack really sucks....Thought I'd chime in here... gotta say something.

Kevin, if things are that far out of line on that Tecnos, then you and I need to work with FedEx about shipping damage. I'm no expert on frame alignment :rolleyes: (don't own the tools like you do to measure things) but my rear wheels went into the correct position easily and then were nice and pretty and well centered. Never used dropout screws, or had any difficulty there.

I love Colnagos; I still own 2 of 'em. I enjoy the solid feel and climbing ability of my old all-aluminum Dream Lux (in spite of what folks seem to think about that particular frame here), and can't wait to ride the larger sized Master X Light I replaced the Tecnos with. It won't get miles until the spring, though...

In my admittedly limited experience (only 3 bikes total), their frame construction is fine. Can't just sit on my hands and have their QC assailed when I've not seen anything to justify it...

[bostondrunk]

Thought I'd chime in here... gotta say something.

Can't just sit on my hands and have their QC assailed when I've not seen anything to justify it...

Tom
I didn't mention you or the original ad for this as the money involved wasn't significant. There is no damage to the box whatsoever, so I don't think there is much to claim with FedEx. I tried three different wheels, all which fit into another colnago straight, plus used Campy rear end cups, and it is way out.
The thread was more about wondering how the frame could be made with bottle cage bosses pointing off to one side, etc, but turned in a slightly different direction... :rolleyes:

But as so many have mentioned, apparently this is all normal for this level of frameset, so I will feel no guilt in reselling it on ebay sometime in the future.

[Viper]

I didn't sleep last night. Nightmares of off-center water bottles. :D

I've owned three Colnagos, all fine bikes. A dented top tube might bother me. Bend the water bottle cage inward, use the adjusting screws in the rear and enjoy the ride! Or spend $1,500.00 for a NOS Tecnos.

[bostondrunk]

A dented top tube might bother me.

My bad, the original ad for the frame did indicate the dent in the top tube.
Anyway, again, was just surprised to see stuff like the water bottle mounts, etc.
The title of the thread was about QC, not "Is this bike ridable".

[soulspinner]

They only feel slow if you ride them slow. When you go fast it's a different story.


RRRRIght...45 downhill just isnt fast enuff...

[bostondrunk]

RRRRIght...45 downhill just isnt fast enuff...

I find that the slack front end makes for a nice smooth ride on a Colnago. I guess some might describe that feeling as slow? To each their own.

[soulspinner]

I find that the slack front end makes for a nice smooth ride on a Colnago. I guess some might describe that feeling as slow? To each their own.

I guess thats it. I prefer Peg type geo for 55-56 cm frames I ride.

[flux]

RRRRIght...45 downhill just isnt fast enuff...

While traveling 45mph down a hill why would you prefer a twitchy steep front end over a layed out, relaxed and stable front end. Traveling at those speeds the radius's (radii?) of your turns are enormous compared to the turns you make when rounding the corner enroute to the local coffee shop. This is my point. Colnago's and the like allow you to go fast, they don't hold you back.

Happy Trails. Kisses and Hugs.

[Dr. Doofus]

They only feel slow if you ride them slow. When you go fast it's a different story.

potd

[flux]

potd

How about this one:

Fast is 45mph on the flats.

[soulspinner]

While traveling 45mph down a hill why would you prefer a twitchy steep front end over a layed out, relaxed and stable front end. Traveling at those speeds the radius's (radii?) of your turns are enormous compared to the turns you make when rounding the corner on you way to the local coffee shop. This is my point. Colnago's and the like allow you to go fast, they don't hold you back.

Happy Trails. Kisses and Hugs.

Thats 6.6cm trail. I in no way feel my Strong with 5.6 trail and low bb to be twitchy(73/73:4.5 rake). So, if you have a custom built you specify Colnago geometry? Not many would, no matter what level you are at. FWIW I think you can get used to anything but I like the Kellog geo for mid size frames. Properly built, it makes a front end that feels neither twitchy nor slow on turn in. Hugs back at ya ... :p

[flux]

Thats 6.6cm trail. I in no way feel my Strong with 5.6 trail and low bb to be twitchy(73/73:4.5 rake). So, if you have a custom built you specify Colnago geometry? Not many would, no matter what level you are at. FWIW I think you can get used to anything but I like the Kellog geo for mid size frames. Properly built, it makes a front end that feels neither twitchy nor slow on turn in. Hugs back at ya ... :p

I just happen to like the way my C-40 felt underneath me. I've always wanted an all steel Crown Jewel to be build according to a size 58 Colnago. So I guess I am the exception.

Have a Great Day,
Justin

[Dr. Doofus]

How about this one:

Fast is 45mph on the flats.

indeed

i can't do that behind a scooter

that's fast bro

[swoop]

flux does speak to something not often spoke to.. bikes have different personalities at different speeds and plenty of folks never really take the bike to its home behind door number two, yet they often feel compelled to make comprehensive statements about the bike.

there's nothing wrong with never pushing a bike .. the wrong comes from assuming 20 is 40's.
some bikes don't make that much sense until you're over-riding all your survival mechanisms and most folks don't have the opportunity to go there.

and therefore can only quantify a part of the ride. and no, coasting down a hill at 40 something is not there.

its not meant as a hater thing.... its just the kid makes a really good point.

[flux]

flux does speak to something not often spoke to.. bikes have different personalities at different speeds and plenty of folks never really take the bike to its home behind door number two, yet they often feel compelled to make comprehensive statements about the bike.

there's nothing wrong with never pushing a bike .. the wrong comes from assuming 20 is 40's.
some bikes don't make that much sense until you're over-riding all your survival mechanisms and most folks don't have the opportunity to go there.

and therefore can only quantify a part of the ride. and no, coasting down a hill at 40 something is not there.

its not meant as a hater thing.... its just the kid makes a really good point.

Thanks Noel.

You guys are all my pals and I don't try to "hate" though at times I come off as heavily opinionated. I am simply very passionate about these issues. Cycling is my livelihood.

Sometimes offering up my side of the coin comes off as perhaps being a little brash but I am simply being matter of fact on this one.

Colnago's, Pegoretti's, Sachs... Lemonds. They are all fantastic bikes. Just different in each their own right. I feel very fortunate to have ridden and competed on all these great bikes and should share my experiences with you as they were given to me for more or less that very reason in the first place.

Cheers,
Justin

[J.Greene]

Justin,
most of us respect your opinion for what it's really worth. Nobody here has ridden with the dudes you have at they speeds you do.

JG

Thanks Noel.

You guys are all my pals and I don't try to "hate" though at times I come off as heavily opinionated. I am simply very passionate about these issues. Cycling is my livelihood.

Sometimes offering up my side of the coin comes off a perhaps being a little brash but I am simply being matter of fact on this one.

Colnago's, Pegoretti's, Sachs... Lemonds. They are all fantastic bikes. Just different in each their own right. I feel very fortunate to have ridden and competed on all these great bikes and should share my experiences with you as they were given to me for more or less that very reason in the first place.

Cheers,
Justin

[swoop]

sometimes people confuse passion for expertise.

i live behind door 1. i get invited behind door number 2 once and again and always come away with my eyes wide open. its a different world. you door number 2 guys are freaks.

[Fixed]

Thanks Noel.

You guys are all my pals and I don't try to "hate" though at times I come off as heavily opinionated. I am simply very passionate about these issues. Cycling is my livelihood.

Sometimes offering up my side of the coin comes off as perhaps being a little brash but I am simply being matter of fact on this one.

Colnago's, Pegoretti's, Sachs... Lemonds. They are all fantastic bikes. Just different in each their own right. I feel very fortunate to have ridden and competed on all these great bikes and should share my experiences with you as they were given to me for more or less that very reason in the first place.

Cheers,
Justin
thanks for bein real
bro i heard you were hard on your stuff
and that's a good thing
imho cheers

[soulspinner]

I guess Colnagos can only be appreciated by those going at warp speed(over 45 "coasting"). Im sorry I mistook my passion with expertise. Maybe people should debate with the likes of Kellog, Pegoretti et al. Im sure they have ridden faster and after all, they DESIGN bikes.

[swoop]

I guess Colnagos can only be appreciated by those going at warp speed(over 45 "coasting"). Im sorry I mistook my passion with expertise. Maybe people should debate with the likes of Kellog, Pegoretti et al. Im sure they have ridden faster and after all, they DESIGN bikes.

i think you're missing a point about geometry.... that's all it is. nothing more, nothing less.
i don't think what flux went through racing for seaco in europe has anything to do with what we go through at the local parking lot crit or hard ride. i don't thinkthe last 10k of an nrc race have a lot in common with the last k of a category race.
i don't think that means he's a better person.. i'm sure he has nice buns and all... it just means he asks the bike some different questions than some/most of us..
and some bikes answer those questions at the expense of some other ones.

[obtuse]

So, if you have a custom built you specify Colnago geometry?


actually i would and hve, and most pros who have ridden colnagos would and do as well.

here's the thing- colnagos are great bikes if you're right for them. they want weight on the front end and an aggressive long and low position....if you set your bike up the way flux does or i do they're perfect...

jerk

[soulspinner]

No question you guys have huge drops on your bikes but I guess using this logic Colnagos are best suited for the elite cyclist set up
as you say. Interestingly, long stems further slow the turn in of the bike as you need to turn the bars farther to get the same angle...

[sspielman]

No question you guys have huge drops on your bikes but I guess using this logic Colnagos are best suited for the elite cyclist set up
as you say. Interestingly, long stems further slow the turn in of the bike as you need to turn the bars farther to get the same angle...


...except that you don't turn the bars to turn the bike except at REALLY slow speeds...

[Climb01742]

No question you guys have huge drops on your bikes but I guess using this logic Colnagos are best suited for the elite cyclist set up
as you say. Interestingly, long stems further slow the turn in of the bike as you need to turn the bars farther to get the same angle...

i'm sure not in flux's or jerk/obtuse/senor's league... nor is my 6.5 cm drop or 120 stem big league... but from the first ride on my c50, something just clicked. i don't think i've ever hit 40+ mph on it. for me, there's just a stability or solidness about how my c50 handles. i'd be tempted to use it's geo as the basis for a custom. all of which means nothing more than... for one dude, it happens to work.

[soulspinner]

Well, you lean the bike but if your hands are farther over the front it does potentially feel different. I cant feel the diff between an 11 or a 10 on my bike, granted.

[cpg]

I was wondering about drop out screws. I could use them to get the rear wheel straight. So if the rear triangle is out of alignment, but the wheel is straight due to the alignment screws, what does that mean for the way the bike will handle??

There's a couple of things going on. First the drops need to be spaced equidistantly from centerline. This is best determined on an alignment table. The Park stick that most bike shops use will work but it's only accurate if the front triangle is straight too. The Park stick nor the "trained" eye can determine if the front triangle is straight. The downtube sticker is no guarantee either. So if you really want to determine straightness put it on a table. After that and the drops are spaced properly and H tooled put in a properly dished wheel without the screws. If the wheel doesn't center between the chain stays then you know that one chainstay is longer than the other. This can happen and should have been caught at the factory. It is not the result of anything after the manufacture of the frame. It's not a big issue (It is sloppy though) if the frame has horizontal drops with adjuster screws. Use the screws to position the rear wheel somewhere in the front half of the slot and centered between the chainstays. Once you've done that you've done all that you can do. I should ride fine provided the wheel is vertical and the rest of the frame is reasonably straight. I haven't addressed whether or not the wheel is vertical. Again that's something that needs to be addressed during the build and if the wheel isn't vertical it's nothing that happened after the build. Does any of this make sense?

Curt

[benb]

I can't question buying a used Colnago in the US but I totally don't get why they are held in high regard and command high prices as new bikes when imported into this country..

Crap warranty, not as nice as other bikes in the price range (or even compared against bikes that sell several notches cheaper), etc..

Someone made a claim that it's OK as it's a mass made bike.. the thing is those "lowly" Special Ed's, Giants, and Treks rarely are this bad.

I guess it's that same Ducati/Ferrari poser thing. It's still great even if it's falling apart in the garage if you've drank the Kool-Aid (er.. magic espresso) and think everything that comes from Italy is automatically great.

[jeffg]

actually i would and hve, and most pros who have ridden colnagos would and do as well.

here's the thing- colnagos are great bikes if you're right for them. they want weight on the front end and an aggressive long and low position....if you set your bike up the way flux does or i do they're perfect...

jerk

Only most folks riding Colnagos outside the pro ranks don't have them set up that way ... if seeing masses of them in Germany, Italy and Norcal is any measure

Colnago has tried bikes before that it has marketed more as gran fondo models, but the geo has been pretty much the same as the other "pro" models as far as I can tell with the exception of the HT length

I would wager that the Peg Dario built for me and the DC bike Kelly Bedford designed for me would work better than a Colnago for my riding. I would likewise guess a C50 would work better for Flux than my bikes for his intended purpose. When I see folks with very short riser stems on a C50/Prince/Idol in a mass participation event and I have to descend at least the first pass in their company, I sure hope it handles well for them ...

[soulspinner]

Nagos all have the same fork rake-43- in every size, which may go a long way to explaining why some people like the handling more than others- the trail changes with every size-OK, Ill duck now...

[Grant McLean]

I find it interesting that Colnago takes crap for making chitty quality european made
price point frames, and then gets crap for their Taiwan sourced & Giant built
bikes for not being 'real' Colnagos. :crap:


-g

[brians647]

I would likewise guess a C50 would work better for Flux than my bikes for his intended purpose. When I see folks with very short riser stems on a C50/Prince/Idol in a mass participation event and I have to descend at least the first pass in their company, I sure hope it handles well for them ...

Well, I ride a C50, and i bought it after riding a CT2 (which I still have). I 'm not a frequent racer, and my flexibility sucks, but I chose the Colnago for the short top tube and run a 110 stem with a bit of rise to it (as well as spacers). It handles amazingly well. When I decend, it's stable as a rock. In corners, I just shift my weight to where I feel it should be, weight the outside pedal, and the thing just rails.

The geometry of other bikes I've had was quick, to the point where turn-in on low speed corners was quirky. The Colnago is smooth and progressive - in all situations. And it shouldn't be that great for me, as i have a lot of setback on the seat post - hence throwing off the handling I'm sure. Regardless, it's spot on.

I really couldn't ask for more.

Oh, and the build quality on both bikes has been top notch; as have all other examples that I've personally seen.

[saab2000]

On some level everything is hand made. Even a blacksmith uses tools in forming metal. It does not matter if you are making 500 bike frames a year or 450,000 Toyota Camrys - Building to spec is building to spec. Boeing is going to crank out how many Dreamliners in the first year? I'm sure it is a lot less than most "craftsman" frame makers. Does this qualify the Dreamliners as "handmade"?

My 15 years of experience working for a large manufacturing company have taught me Quality cannot be inspected into a product. It must be built in to the product from the beginning. This increases efficency, reduces costs & increases profit.

Poor quality damages your brand for years to come - look at the Detroit 3 - they are just now slowly recovering from quality problems years ago.

GETS IT

[brians647]

GETS IT

I think that most people on this forum "get it" in that poor items should never leave the factory, but just don't see a close enough parallel between mass produced cars, airplanes, appliances, etc, and a bicycle to warrant that comparison.

I'm not letting Colnago off the hook (although my experiences have been great), but I'm just saying...

[weisan]

when I first got the LOOK carbo KG281 frame four years ago, it was smooth, stable and all of that but yet I I didn't fell in love with it right away. In fact, I didn't think much of it for quite some time until fairly recently like less than a year ago. The point was driven home to me last October on a century ride. There was a 3-mile stretch of flat road with a gentle tailwind, it came alive and kicked into turbo mode at the highest gear, and I gave it all I have, stayed around maybe 38 mph - 42 mph for a span of 4 or 5 minutes, don't get me wrong here, I am not sayin' that the bike started to pedal on its own, it was pure hardwork but in a fluid and powerful sense, almost like at the breaking point of moving from suffering into bliss. I can never forget that feeling and it hasn't happened again but was a real eye-opening experience. in a way I understand what flux-pal is saying, even though being a much weaker rider.

ok....rant over.

drunk-pal, get drunk or sumthin', forget your worries...just ride that thing. :p

[michael white]

One observation about this thread is that it seems like those with warm and fuzzy feelings about Colnagos are the folks who ride them. It's a big, flashy brand, and an easy target for criticism, for all sorts of reasons, valid or otherwise. As for quality, whatever . . .


Yes, the front end is different, markedly different. I have a Steelman which has very easy neutral steering, and it's not a bit like that. BTW, I'd take the claimed geometry with a grain of salt, I wouldn't necessarily assume anything about rake/trail.

overall: I am not what you'd consider fast, but I really like the way my entry-level lugged Colnago goes once you push it a little. It just feels like a serious ****ing ***** of a bike, and I enjoy that.

[Johny]

FWIW, I have three Colnago's: C40, CT1, and MXL, all in 52cm, and I like all of them. As a lugged bike, MXL is not better constructed than my CSi and Kirk but that's not all it's about I guess. I also ride a 51cm Pegoretti GGM, and geometry and feeling wise, it's very similar to a 52cm Colnago.

Once I looked at the backs of Mike Barry Senior and his lovely wife Clare on a tandem and wondered why I'm so slow. It's not about the bike, isn't it? I do hope that I can do 45 on the flats, but then, I'm no Justin, Jerk or the Barry tandem.

[theprep]

One observation about this thread is that it seems like those with warm and fuzzy feelings about Colnagos are the folks who ride them. It's a big, flashy brand, and an easy target for criticism, for all sorts of reasons, valid or otherwise. As for quality, whatever . . .



That is a great point about Colnago's being easy targets. I was guilty as well until I rode one and realized it was special and worked for me. It is my current favorite ride no matter what the geometry table says.

I know of 2 people who have had custom Serotta's made with Colnago geometry.

[Johny]

I know of 2 people who have had custom Serotta's made with Colnago geometry.

I have one too, a 2006 Legend Ti and it rides just as what it's supposed to...

[rdparadise]

A friend of mine bought a masterlight, brand new from a dealer in Philadelphia a few years back. He's a big guy, 250lbs + and within the first three months he noticed a hairline crack in the weld between the downtube and headtube. Dealer handled the replacement, under warranty, no problem.

I always like the look of Colnago's but never the quality. I was surprised when this happened to my friends bike.

Just sayin....

Bob

[swoop]

i don't think quality in the capital letters sense of the word.. is in the domain of the mass produced thing.

this is why when you choose to drop coin for something mass produced... that you need to feel connected to the warranty or good intentions of the store.

you have to remember that most pros on nagos are racing custom bikes.... but plenty race stock. team bikes break without fanfare. its a tool/instrument and it serves a purpose.

but the bike as an object of desire... that's about something else, requires a little more love in the production process... and a little more legwork from the consumer.

its all good. wabi sabi has a place too.

i like my cages to be centered.

[Grant McLean]

but the bike as an object of desire... that's about something else

There are at least two kinds of bike desire. Sometimes it's about the bike,
sometimes it's about who rode them.

You can get all wet and sticky about a frame with perfectly executed details,
or you can be impressed by the fuction as a tool. I think Colnago bikes fit into
the latter.

I think a lot of folks don't differientiate between the two. They see "quality"
as lasting 30 years, or attention to details that don't matter as being a visual
indicator of the performance of the bike.

I love looking a pro bikes, and the little things that make it personal, like a particular
fit characteristic, fav saddle, round bend bar and all that stuff. It's rarely about
the paint job being smooth, or the cable stop alignment. The beauty of a
Colnago is it's usefulness as a tool. If you're looking for a visual show piece,
or example of artistic perfection... there are much more impressive examples
out there, for sure.

-g

[bostondrunk]

There are at least two kinds of bike desire.
I desire a sachs, but eRitchie told me something to the effect of "When Pigs Fly".... ;)

[brians647]

I desire a sachs, but eRitchie told me something to the effect of "When Pigs Fly".... ;)

Is that what we're waiting for? Six years to see pigs fly? Damn... I'm gonna get Wilbur some wings and speed things up! :banana:

[benb]

If you just desire a tool a Specialized/Trek/Giant/whatever will do that just fine too.. and at a way lower price in the US. If you're going to spend extra money you might as well spend it on better quality rather then country of origin.

Are Colnagos much much cheaper in Europe? e.x. ISTR hearing that Treks, Cannondales, etc.. are pretty steeply priced over there for the exact same reasons that Colnagos are expensive here.

Who is the importer now anyway? It doesn't look like Trialtir is still doing it.. is Colnago maintaining it's own import/dealer chain now?

[davyt]

i don't think quality in the capital letters sense of the word.. is in the domain of the mass produced thing. <SNIP>
A heartfelt question for you: what element of quality do you find lacking in your mass produced Campagnolo/Shimano/SRAM components?

[flux]

Who is the importer now anyway? It doesn't look like Trialtir is still doing it.. is Colnago maintaining it's own import/dealer chain now?

Veltec.

[J.Greene]

The beauty of a
Colnago is it's usefulness as a tool. If you're looking for a visual show piece,
or example of artistic perfection... there are much more impressive examples
out there, for sure.
-g

The beauty of a Colnago is the profit margin for Ernesto and how he has positioned himself as the iconoclastic italian brand.

And that is all atmo of course.

JG

[swoop]

A heartfelt question for you: what element of quality do you find lacking in your mass produced Campagnolo/Shimano/SRAM components?


i thought we were talking frames (in that case lets talk alignment, details, and paint).

to address your question .. imagine the gruppo david kirk would make is hand making gruppos were an option. talk about watchmakers....
imagine grips and reach and throw designed to fit your hands and the fit and finish.

the nature of components is what lends them to a mass production process. less so than a frame... they can mass produce one hell of a carbon frame if they don't overuse the molds and make enough sizes.

[Grant McLean]

If you just desire a tool a Specialized/Trek/Giant/whatever will do that just fine too..

Not many Colnago owners think it's 'just a tool' even if that's what they are
...it's more like a Michael Schumacher F1 Ferrari 'just another f1 car',
which of course they are. People attach more meaning.

Is a home run baseball worth any more than one bought at the store?

g

[davyt]

i thought we were talking frames (in that case lets talk alignment, details, and paint).O.K., fair enough, your statement was kind of sweeping in nature.

to address your question .. imagine the gruppo david kirk would make is hand making gruppos were an option. talk about watchmakers... imagine grips and reach and throw designed to fit your hands and the fit and finish.I have no doubt the finish would be exquisite. But quality should have metrics and the parameters you mention don't necessarily.

the nature of components is what lends them to a mass production process. less so than a frame... they can mass produce one hell of a carbon frame if they don't overuse the molds and make enough sizes.That we agree on! Cheers!

[Flat Out]

I can't question buying a used Colnago in the US but I totally don't get why they are held in high regard and command high prices as new bikes when imported into this country..

Crap warranty, not as nice as other bikes in the price range (or even compared against bikes that sell several notches cheaper), etc..

Someone made a claim that it's OK as it's a mass made bike.. the thing is those "lowly" Special Ed's, Giants, and Treks rarely are this bad.

I guess it's that same Ducati/Ferrari poser thing. It's still great even if it's falling apart in the garage if you've drank the Kool-Aid (er.. magic espresso) and think everything that comes from Italy is automatically great.

Dude. Please.

[djg]

i'm sure not in flux's or jerk/obtuse/senor's league... nor is my 6.5 cm drop or 120 stem big league... but from the first ride on my c50, something just clicked. i don't think i've ever hit 40+ mph on it. for me, there's just a stability or solidness about how my c50 handles. i'd be tempted to use it's geo as the basis for a custom. all of which means nothing more than... for one dude, it happens to work.

I'm not in that league either and I don't have a C50. I have a 2001 CT1 -- I doubt that Ernesto ever touched it and there's a good chance he never even saw it, but it's still fine, looks good, the rear wheel goes in straight and centered, and the bike feels smooth and stable descending (which I've certainly done at more than 40mph, and then some).

[BumbleBeeDave]

bbd-
is it possible for you to actually read something in context for once? a used frame with off center bosses and an unknown history that produced a misalligned rear triangle on the internet hardly qualifies as colnago's resume...a passive aggressive assertion that i believe an "unsafe" bicycle is "good enough" is also beneath even your level of decorum.

you know nothing of standards inherent in racing bicycle frame production nor do any of us know anything about the specific history of the bike in question. suffice it to say, colnago doesnt need defense from me and a misinformed questioning of their ethics based on supposition ain't going to hurt their sales.

nonetheless, attack ernie for his outsourceing, his whoring of himself and his firm to people and causes he feels to be his cultural superiors, or even his haircut and gaudy stupid aesethtic sensibilities. don't attack him for what is part and parcel of making racing bicycles in a European. production setting. it was the job of bike shops in those days to allign frames and forks, cut ancd chase threads and do the vast majority of finishing work. a midlevel steel, outsourced, overpriced steel colnago prepped and assembled properly makes a wonderful bike.

if you only knew,
jerk

As for context . . . I took into account the uncertain prior history of this frame in the first sentence of my post. Perhaps you missed it? But others quickly chimed in with their negative experiences on Colnago QC also. Perhaps you missed their posts, too?

Any company’s products are a demonstration of the level of their dedication to quality. It’s their “resume.” That applies at the top and bottom of the product range. If a new rider buys a Colnago because of their reputation, then as they learn more recognizes that the frame is of inferior workmanship, they’re less likely to come back and spend thousands more on one of the top end frames. I don’t think it takes a great leap to recognize that.

As for the condescending attitude that drips from this post and so many others from you . . . I don’t like it. I don’t deserve it. Neither do any of the other people here you seem to love to dump it on. It stinks. So if we just all adjust our Colnago’s like yours, they will ride perfectly . . . misaligned triangles and all? Yeah, right . . .

Look, I don’t work in a big time bike shop, like you. I haven’t ridden hundreds of different bikes, like you. I don’t know all sorts of famous people in the bike industry, like you. I don’t race, and I’ve certainly never raced in (Gasp!) Europe, like you. I’m not always right, like you. I don’t even have an iPhone. Congratulations. You’re a stud and I’m not.

But I have managed to ride fairly seriously for the past twenty-odd years without killing myself or anybody else. I have managed to spec a few bikes and get them built up and they work pretty well. I have managed to make suggestions to a few friends on cycling-related matters and—guess what—they actually worked and those friends thanked me! I think that entitles me to at least politely express an opinion here that might perhaps disagree with yours. I think I will keep doing so. Apologies if that upsets your little “I’ve-Already-Forgotten-More-Than-You-Will-Ever-Learn-About Cycling” act that you seem so fond of. That act is getting old, Craig. It stinks.

BBD

[flux]

That act is getting old, Craig. It stinks.

BBD

Huh... Actually I like reading Craig's posts. I know the guy, he is a very good friend and I am proud of it. (insert hugs and kisses here).

It's the wide variety of experience, levels within the sport and demeanor in general simultaneously expressing their opinion on any one given topic that make this place so much fun and dynamic. It's also the little certain insider jokes and tidbits that can make things hilarious to some and go unnoticed by others.

I could give examples.

That type of stuff...

[e-RICHIE]

If a new rider buys a Colnago because of their reputation, then as they learn more recognizes that the frame is of inferior workmanship, they’re less likely to come back and spend thousands more on one of the top end frames. I don’t think it takes a great leap to recognize that.
BBD
i don't get this atmo. folks don't judge a campagnolo on
avanti or even centaur. you don't judge a company on
it's price point wares atmo. i'd hate to be judged on my
strada immaculatas. some stuff is just made for the money.
the frame in question was a mid level frame prolly touched
by 10 different people in the 20 minutes it took to make atmo.


sent from my burning iRack

[chrisroph]

i don't get this atmo. folks don't judge a campagnolo on
avanti or even centaur. you don't judge a company on
it's price point wares atmo. i'd hate to be judged on my
strada immaculatas. some stuff is just made for the money.
the frame in question was a mid level frame prolly touched
by 10 different people in the 20 minutes it took to make atmo.


sent from my burning iRack

good point wise one although i confess that i love centaur drlrs.

its also important to acknowledge the difference between fine craftsmanship and fine geo. there are many bikes that are beautifully finished, and built straight, but ride like cr@p because the geo is bad. i've had a few.

and, there are many bikes --lots of name brand euro stuff--that gets kind of thrown together with poor finish but the geo is good and the bike rides well. i've had a few of these too.

and then there are the bikes that are beautifully built and ride spectacularly. these are the ones i tend to keep for a while.

haven't had a colnago as of yet.

[stevep]

take it to the bank.

he picked the jets to win the super bowl this year,
adam myerson to win the world road championship.
justin spinelli to play the triangle for the ny philharmonic,
none of these things happened.


he doesnt know everything...but he's always entertaining.
don't take it personally.
its just bike stuff.

[capybaras]

I love crappy welds! :banana:

[RudAwkning]

i don't get this atmo. folks don't judge a campagnolo on
avanti or even centaur. you don't judge a company on
it's price point wares atmo. i'd hate to be judged on my
strada immaculatas. some stuff is just made for the money.
the frame in question was a mid level frame prolly touched
by 10 different people in the 20 minutes it took to make atmo.


sent from my burning iRack

But if our shop received a Centaur derailleur that's cage was bent or simply didn't shift properly, we'd send it back. If we purchased an Avanti hub that didn't spin freely, we'd also send it back.

Same would go for Shimano 105.

I'd judge both Shimano and Campagnolo on issues like these, but only if they weren't willing to back up their product.

But I've never had an issue with a 105 or Centaur component straight out of the box that either manufacturer wasn't willing to handle.

Issues with fit and finish >might< be excusable at a given pricepoint. Usability, however, is not. I'd never excuse sloppy shifting for a given "pricepoint". All bike ***** should work. Maybe not as smoothly as the top end model, but at least work. I'd never sell someone a Mirage shifter and tell them, "Well, it may not shift into the last gear but HEY! You shoulda bought Record."

But the original question was about a frame that had off center bottle bosses, a hand carved cloverleaf and a misaligned rear end. The first 2 >might< be considered fit and finish. If the latter was indeed (and we'll never know for sure) due to poor craftmanship, it was up to the shop building the bike to recognize the problem on the workstand and warranty the frame (stuff does slip through QC at a factory afterall). It would have then been up to the distributor to issue the shop a new frame. And it would have then been up to Colnago to reimburse the distributor.

None of this was recognized during the sale/build process or even during the original rider's tenure with the frameset. So this entire thread is MOOT.

[Peter P.]

what we have here is the variability of handcraft, not
the disappointment of shoddy workmanship atmo.

I disagree. What we have here is, AMERICAN framebuilders surpassed the quality of Italian frames and set the standards of quality some decades ago. That has always been my contention, whether I'm speaking of domestic builders of reknown or lesser knowns, production (i.e. quantity) builders, or smaller operations. Too bad that the consumer just doesn't get it.

I think a fair comparison would be Serotta versus Colnago. Even their more affordable lines such as the Fierte and the older, lugged Atlanta were much more finely finished than Colnagos and more affordable, too.

[michael white]

None of this was recognized during the sale/build process or even during the original rider's tenure with the frameset. So this entire thread is MOOT.


here's a salient point.

as I understand it, this frame was sold on ebay.
any surprise then if it's not perfect?
Jeez, there's a certain percentage of stuff I buy on ebay I just have to throw away and forget about.
No way can you construe much of anything about anything from that.

[e-RICHIE]

None of this was recognized during the sale/build process or even during the original rider's tenure with the frameset. So this entire thread is MOOT.
agreed. i thought it was moot from my first post.

[e-RICHIE]

I disagree. What we have here is, AMERICAN framebuilders surpassed the quality of Italian frames and set the standards of quality some decades ago. That has always been my contention, whether I'm speaking of domestic builders of reknown or lesser knowns, production (i.e. quantity) builders, or smaller operations. Too bad that the consumer just doesn't get it.

I think a fair comparison would be Serotta versus Colnago. Even their more affordable lines such as the Fierte and the older, lugged Atlanta were much more finely finished than Colnagos and more affordable, too.
way to miscontrue my text to fit your pov atmo.
insert friendly bananas here ______________ .
the reply you posted to (http://serotta.com/forum/showpost.php?p=452155&postcount=7) was to breguet with whom
i was making analogies (http://serotta.com/forum/showpost.php?p=452141&postcount=4) to the watchmaker's trade
compared with say - a timex or a swatch. go read.

[Flat Out]

Hows abouts we all just ride bikes that make us want to keep riding and forget about what other people think about said bikes?

[Grant McLean]

I disagree. What we have here is, AMERICAN framebuilders surpassed the quality of Italian frames and set the standards of quality some decades ago.

What standard are you measuring? How nice the paint looks over the finish?
You can't "see" the quality of a race bike. You have measure what's important.
Lumps under chrome only seem important in photographs on the internet.
If you buy a frame 'cause it's pretty, fair enough.

But my girlfriend doesn't criticize my hand writing when i leave a love note
on the pillow.

-g

[bostondrunk]

as I understand it, this frame was sold on ebay.
any surprise then if it's not perfect?


You obviously didn't even read the first post in this thread.
As is usual for this forum, what started as a few basic questions I had about some QC stuff on a Colnago has snowballed into another pissing match.... :banana:
:beer:
You guys are so immature... :D

[J.Greene]

But my girlfriends don't criticize my hand writing when i leave a love note
on the pillow.
-g

They are just happy you remember their name and leave them bus money.

JG

[Grant McLean]

They are just happy you remember their name and leave them bus money.

JG

they know what's important too... :D

-g

[manet]

They are just happy you remember their name and leave them bus money.

JG

... a hand written invoice adds that personal touch

[brians647]

You obviously didn't even read the first post in this thread.
As is usual for this forum, what started as a few basic questions I had about some QC stuff on a Colnago has snowballed into another pissing match.... :banana:
:beer:
You guys are so immature... :D

Lol! What fun would it all be otherwise? :fight:

[e-RICHIE]

Lol! What fun would it all be otherwise? :fight:
it will always be jane austentatious atmo -
For what do we live, but to make sport for our
neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?

[J.Greene]

... a hand written invoice adds that personal touch

I don't think his girlfriends are that pro.....

JG

[Grant McLean]

I don't think his girlfriends are that pro.....

JG

but most of them read

-g

[J.Greene]

but most of them read

-g

That's over rated.

Fixed is gonna be pissed when he finds out you were down the road from us and didn't call or write.

JG

[Grant McLean]

That's over rated.

Fixed is gonna be pissed when he finds out you were down the road from us and didn't call or write.

JG


It was a 2 day pit stop, no wheels included.
i'm counting on you for some track time
next time, i promise.

-g

[velosport]

I've had a few Colnago frames and they all had quality issues. I hate when people pass poor quality on hand build limitations. When I was putting the outer skins together on 747 airplanes I didn't pass along poor quality due to being built by hand. Believe me a 747 is hand built because it's an old design. We had to maintain tolerances because the joke was if you were off by .01 instead of .001 from the nose on you wouldn't be able to put a tail on it. By the way the folks building the 737 didn't build crap because it was a cheaper plane.

[e-RICHIE]

I've had a few Colnago frames and they all had quality issues. I hate when people pass poor quality on hand build limitations. When I was putting the outer skins together on 747 airplanes I didn't pass along poor quality due to being built by hand. Believe me a 747 is hand built because it's an old design. We had to maintain tolerances because the joke was if you were off by .01 instead of .001 from the nose on you wouldn't be able to put a tail on it. By the way the folks building the 737 didn't build crap because it was a cheaper plane.
as far as the thread goes, there are two issues, and each
is a visual one rather than technical or structural. and since
it's been told that the frame is second hand and we really
don't know the full story, no one really knows if the frame
was sold as-is at the factory or what (see polyglot's post).
i don't buy that the bottle boss thingy and the pantograph
logo are defects and said as much yesterday. but this is a
price point frame and like its older brothers, still will ride
down the street like a colnago even if it's a less well finished
version. looks aren't everything. it's still a colnago design.
as far as the plane analogies go, there must be differences
between the two, even if it's only the flatware used during
meals. someone will notice and scream for sterling cuz it is
a boing after all atmo.

[Grant McLean]

looks aren't everything.

amen.

I'm always impressed that a Sachs is clean and tidy,
but the really impressive part is how they fit, handle,
respond, feel, and go fast. The rest is gravy baby.

A fancy painted lug reveals nothing about how well
a frame is built. A crooked lug will say more about
the owner than the builder. Don't people still buy
these things to ride?

-g

[PBWrench]

I got no problem with this atmo. The bosses seem straight.

[manet]

Don't people still buy
these things to ride?

-g

yes

[DarrenCT]

amen.

I'm always impressed that a Sachs is clean and tidy,
but the really impressive part is how they fit, handle,
respond, feel, and go fast. The rest is gravy baby.

A fancy painted lug reveals nothing about how well
a frame is built. A crooked lug will say more about
the owner than the builder. Don't people still buy
these things to ride?

-g

exactly.

im taking my sachs bike out tomorrow and im going to beat the living crap out of it for a few hours. (depending upon how f'ing cold it is) :)

but, it still sits in my living room after im done cleaning it

[RudAwkning]

I got no problem with this atmo

She's making my downtube an....uptube :D

[Grant McLean]

She's making my downtube an....uptube :D

there's a headtube joke there too.

-g

[swoop]

and no matter how great a guy you are... and i know we're all charmers here in real life... the jerk is right and this is the lunchtable... if you can read this you're sitting at it. there's no secret handshake. its a bike forum... it can't matter. it don't matter.
cheap bikes are cheap.
mass produced bikes can look mass produced
and a custom bike that doesn't fit doesn't do anyone any good.

[Louis]

I got no problem with this atmo. The bosses seem straight.

What's this forum coming to?

Between this pic and Justin doing I don't know what to that Colnago, the next thing you know we'll have folks goodness knows what. Maybe even threesomes on a tandem.

[RudAwkning]

What was Justin doing to that Colnago? I wonder....

[Johny]

I got no problem with this atmo. The bosses seem straight.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=35560&stc=1

I got no problem with the rear end alignment either. And by the way...they are real, and they are spectacular.

[William]

MAN BD!!! You really know how to throw a wrench into the works. He's sitting back sipping on his MGD and laughing his arse off right now. :D


You da pro man! :beer:


William

[michael white]

You obviously didn't even read the first post in this thread.
As is usual for this forum, what started as a few basic questions I had about some QC stuff on a Colnago has snowballed into another pissing match.... :banana:
:beer:
You guys are so immature... :D

of course I didn't actually "read" every post on this thread. What sort of grown-up would waste their time doing something like that?
Or if I did, I wouldn't admit it . . .

[bostondrunk]

MAN BD!!! You really know how to throw a wrench into the works. He's sitting back sipping on his MGD and laughing his arse off right now. :D


You da pro man! :beer:


William

I thought I told you.....Roy Munson got me turned on to Old Milwaukee king cans a long time ago!

[sspielman]

... a hand written invoice adds that personal touch

...maybe......but I would be careful about making it TOO personal....adding a note like "We appreciate your business very much!"....could have unintended consequences....